Gettysburg 157th Anniversary Special- July 2, 1863
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ค. 2020
- In this episode, Licensed Battlefield Guides Tim Smith, Jim Pangburn and Charlie Fennell join Matt and Bob on Little Round Top at the 155th PA Moumument for a discussion on July 2, 1863. Learn more about the important actions on Day 2 of the battle with these books on: Devils Den The Peach Orchard Day 2 Become a Patron here. Cover photo by Mort Kuntsler
Thoroughly enjoyed this. Everyone has a slightly different perspective and that’s what history is. We do the best with what we have and interpret it accordingly.
Exactly. There are no absolutes
I appreciate this isn’t all about the “Longstreet ruined everything,” narrative.
He didn't. Lee did lol
@@addressinggettysburg lol absolutely
I am not a Sickles fan either. When he took the Peach Orchard, he left I Corps in the air and exposed. My great great great grandfather was in I Corps, and the daughter that lead to me was birthed after the war. It is very possible that I would not have been born if not for Meade sending support to Sickles to cover his blunder.
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Any exposure I Corps may have felt was strictly due to the Cemetery Hill salient it was deployed on and their increased exposure rate. Between Newton's I Corps and Sickles III Corps lay Hancock's II Corps. One might argue it was Hancock's southern/left flank that became compromised when Sickle's advanced his brigade due west towards the Peach Orchard however I Corps exposure wasn't really impacted as much due to his early afternoon redeployment or at least not as much as V or II Corps was.
Cool show. I was nerding out hard.
Happy to hear it. Thanks for listening
Again, great work. Thank you.
No, thank YOU
ALL of these anniversary shows are so good.Tim is just ruthless to Bob. I don't think he does it to be mean, it's just the way he is. If it's wrong he has to correct it no matter what.
Right. It’s a compulsion lol Poor Bob
Nobody likes a know it all. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.
Great episode - really enjoyed the exchange of comments and ideas. Kudos to Tim Smith for his comments on Meade's council-of-war, juxtapositioning it against Lee's lack of organization and communication/command/control during the battle.
Thanks, Bryan!
Yapping and yakking with no visual aid is not a documentary. Thumbs down.
If Dan Sickles was a musician today he would be a punk rock singer. His band would be called "Innocent by reason of insanity"
Listening to the program, I did not listen in order. Go figure. But know one mentions the one comment I always hear at Gettysburg or home is, "...if Stonewall Jackson was alive the South would have won". I say whatever.
Well that’s because that “what if” is an exercise in futility because he was dead. Most historians don’t like engage in speculation, except for fun. But here are my thoughts, even though you didn’t ask for them lol If Jackson were here, the south would have still lost the war.
Quick question regarding the sunlight reflecting on the bayonets. Why would the Confederate soldiers even have their bayonets fixed at this point? It doesn't make sense but maybe I'm missing something.
I think it was really reported at the gun barrels, but mistakenly said as "bayonets" in this episode.
@@addressinggettysburg Much appreciated. Really enjoying the show.
I had in mind, if I recall properly, that Slocum could be considered a goat because he refused to help Howard when pressed. Kind of like Mahone refusing to move on the other side. It was mentioned here as a possibility that Mahone was held in reserve in which case he'd be excused...but there are accounts that don't look on him favorably for his inaction. Then again I may full of beans.
At the end of the day, some thing we’ll just never know for sure.
The whole notion of Mahone serving as a reserve is laughable. In pitched battles the Confederates never had the luxury of setting aside a dedicated reserve force such was the reality of the challenges that faced the Rebels. At the most it may have been that someone in Anderson's Division suggested using Mahone to follow in behind the other four brigades belonging to Anderson's Division offering a supporting role to the those already engaged in battle. The positioning of Anderson's 5 brigades one next to the other from south to north robbed it of back-up forces that could be used to support those in the thick of battle. Mahone was lying through his teeth suggesting he was ordered by God only knows who to sit there and pick his ass as everyone else was doing all the fighting. I am astonished he was instantly court marshalled and put in front of a firing squad. Instead the whole thing was treated like nothing had happened.
My Confederate Hero on the 2nd is probably Barksdale. What an ass whipping charge that was! Goat is a 3-way tie between Division Commander Anderson (3rd Corps), Carnot Posey, and Mahone. Posey for his apparent incompetence in dealing with Union skirmishers causing mischief at the Bliss Farm. Allowing the issue to fester for as long as it does adversely impacts his ability to advance across Emmitsburg Road providing support to Wright's brigade which had just found itself on the threshold of a yawning gap in the Union Center. Mahone for his inexplicable refusal to participate in the attack-in-echelon where his quick action could have put the attack
back on track after it had just run off the rails moments earlier. Anderson for his complete disinterest and non-engagement in the battle that's raging around his division at a critical point in the battle AND the poor positioning of his division which lacked depth like Hood, McLaws, and Penders' Divisions which used the double stacking method.
Union Hero: Probably Winfred Scott Hancock the Superb who demonstrated the level of attention that was needed to successfully mitigate several disasters that could have been far worse on the 2nd. Hancock was everywhere putting out one fire after another. I believe his management style on July 2nd was what Lee had in mind for Longstreet when he intended for him to facilitate the attack in echelon sequence of assaults not only from his two I Corps Divisions but also from AP Hill's Divisions of Anderson and Pender. Apparently Longstreet didn't get the memo about this as he seems to have clocked out once Woffords brigade was released. Union Goat: I guess its a tie between Sickles and Mahone. Sickles for attempting to secure the high ground to his front with his Corps which was far too small to defend the terrain. Meade for over reacting to the Confederate attack shifting significant forces from his center and north to the south (Caldwell's Division, V Corps, most of XII Corps on top of III Corps already in the south). This moved forces away from Cemetery Hill, Lee's ultimate objective.
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Troy Harman's video Gettysburg: Robert E. Lee Reconnoiters Little Round Top, July 2, 1863, does a great job of refuting much of what these guys say in the first 20-25 minutes of their video. Harman, using original documents, shows Samuel Johnston was effective in his reconnaissance early on the 2nd and, had Longstreet been more like Jackson, Lee had a very good chance of engineering a victory much like Chancellorsville. Check out the video (the link follows) and see Longstreet not only owed Lee a much more spirited and timely attack, but he owed this to his men and his country. When Lee tells Longstreet at 7:00 am, "I think you had better move on," I am sure that didn't mean a 4:00 pm attack. th-cam.com/video/ltD1j48qdYM/w-d-xo.html
I’ll have to watch Troy’s video. I highly doubt he takes the Lost Cause argument which negates a lot of what actually happened on July 2, not in retrospect during the post-war finger-pointing era. For example, Longstreet was already down a division and one brigade (Law’s) from Hood’s Division. He didn’t receive Lee’s order to attack until around 11am and asked for permission, from Lee, to wait until Law was up. Lee gave him this permission. Then there’s the fact that Sickles moved his corps out to where is wasn’t when Johnston made his ride. Longstreet’s countermarch adds to the time and the adjustments that had to be made once the disposition of Sickles’ Corps was realized. It’s not a simple thing to move a corps for miles and make an attack and shouldn’t be oversimplified just so Lee can be exonerated for making the mistake of fighting at Gettysburg and losing. Thanks for listening and helping with the algorithm, though 😁
@@addressinggettysburg Harman points out that Johnston says in one of his letters to McLaws that seeing Sickles in his forward position in the afternoon was the first forces he had seen all day that were "ready to oppose." In a Harman book, Lee's Real Plan at Gettysburg , Harman uses first-hand accounts to show Lee's plan was to attack up the Emmitsburg Road with an echelon attack, allowing A.P. Hill's Corps to join in as the attack progressed. This mitigated Longstreet not being at full strength. Also, Lee is quoted as complaining to Ewell around 9:00 am about what could possibly be holding up Longstreet. Lee acquiesced to Longstreet's delay, but it wasn't his plan. An early surprise attack on an unsuspecting and still encamped Union left, similar to Chancellorsville, had a likelihood of success. With an echelon attack, the gaining of the Peach Orchard as an artillery platform, and a simultaneous attack by Ewell on the Union right, I believe Lee's plan of attack was foiled by a "less than Jackson" Longstreet.
And isn't our source for the account of the 11:00 am order Longstreet himself in his memoirs? I'd like to know if there are other accounts that corroborate this, in particular, anyone other than a Longstreet subordinate who witnessed this? Or a subordinate who actually witnessed the conversation where Lee gave the order. A subordinate, of course, would say something like, "Yes, we got the order to go at 11:00 am." This would be the natural recollection of a subordinate of Longstreet remembering the time Longstreet told them to go.
There are several witness accounts of Lee being impatient and expressing disappointment the attack did not occur early in the day. And there are accounts of Longstreet essentially pouting and not being happy with Lee not accepting his plan to move to the right. Witnesses actually wrote Longstreet moved slowly and with no sense of urgency.
@@JohnGeary-yr4kqtwo of Lee’s staff officers confirmed that the order to attack was given at 11:00 that morning. The two sources who said Lee ordered a sunrise attack were Gens. Early and Pendleton who were large figures in starting the lost cause myth, and despised Longstreet because he called for the south to accept the reconstruction, became a Republican and endorsed Grant for the presidency.
What a great discussion, although I was beside myself waiting for someone to say Stuart was the Confederate goat. As for the Union and the battle as a whole, definitely Meade was the hero. What greater service can a man perform for his country than take command of the army days before the greatest battle of the war and win it! A great American hero. One thing I wanted to hear about was the significance Wright’s brigade on the 2nd and it’s influence on Lee on the 3rd. And BTW, was that Tim who chose the image of Chamberlain‘a charge to accompany the video? 🙂. Bayonets!!
Haha it certainly was not Tim. I chose that to get under his skin
Great work 👏🇮🇲
Muchas gracias!
Wonderful content! Using Google Maps to mark and chronicle movements as you discuss the battle is fun. Can’t wait to see it all in real life one day.
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I know the feeling..I want to see it real bad
Love you guys.
I never worried about meades legacy. his council of war seemed perfectly logical.lincoln was obviously behind congress and meade had won the battle think about ike in 43,44, 45 .....how would you like that job?
Exactly. Meade deserves a ton more credit than he has gotten. I mean, he was the final commander of the AOP. Musta done something right.
I have never understood why Lee felt it necessary to continue the offensive phase of the Battle after he had successfully reunited his Army on July 1 and in the process seized both the high ground (Seminary Ridge/Oak Ridge) and the Town where the road network came together. He had unlimited options at that point, and could have concentrated for a turning movement, or simply pulled Ewell back slightly on the left to consolidate his hold on a strongly laid out defensive position while sending the cavalry out to thoroughly plunder the countryside. He had already won the battle and simply needed to capitalize on it. Meade's options, by comparison, were very limited indeed. Any move Meade made at that point would have exposed a portion of his own army to destruction. Stop thinking of it from Lee's perspective and think of it from Meade's. Lee controls the countryside; the Northern countryside. How do you force Lee to leave? If you move against Lee's supply line to the southwest, you attack directly into Longstreet, which Longstreet is only salivating over. Meade was in coffin corner, unable to maneuver and faced by an enemy ensconced on easily defended ground. Any attack Meade might make would weaken his own position. Lee held all the options and didn't need to continue to attack. If anything, Meade needed to attack, and would have found it expensive indeed to retake the ground Lee had seized on July 1. Yet a frontal attack on Lee's center was probably Meade's best move at that point as it held the potential the split Lee's Army. Now we have Pickett's charge in reverse... I'd buy those tickets and willingly overpay for popcorn!
The only thing is, Meade didn’t need to attack Lee. Lee had nothing behind him that Meade cared about. But Meade did have Washington behind him. It was more important he protect that than attack Lee. Also I think Lee continued to attack because made gains throughout the battle which encouraged him to keep going until they break the Union line. Yanks just had interior lines on high ground and more men. Didn’t need to attack.
Lee was like the guy who goes to Vegas. He wins a few hands at Blackjack, gets overconfident, and then bets it all, not realizing the house set him up to lose.
@@eremiasranwolf3513 best answer! I think Lee’s natural aggressiveness played a part in it too, at least in how he prosecuted the battle tactically after day 1.
@@addressinggettysburg Meade was under immense political pressure to attack. Lee’s offensive tactics on days 2 and 3 reflect his desire to end the war quickly, before it was too late. Longstreet and Johnston were tactically correct, Lee and Jackson were strategically correct. The smaller force should theoretically fight from behind fortifications, but perhaps not in a protracted attritional struggle… it was time to roll the dice. It was the last chance to win the war outright. But with the benefit of hindsight, Lee should have dug in instead of attacking. But “Meade would not make a mistake…” as Lee predicted. So it sort of had to go the way it did.
Lafayette McLaws will complain after the war of not being allowed to fully reconnoiter a route march, not Longstreet.
"I had been forbidden to reconnoiter, so had my engineer officer. General Longstreet had not done it, and General Lee had not, and, therefore, it must have been that Major Johnson(sic) had gone there early in the morning, and not seeing any one, had so reported, and if, after that time, a different state of affairs was known by anybody to exist, it had not been reported to either General Lee or General Longstreet; at least it appears so. All this resulted from defective and deficient organization of our staff corps, not from anybody's fault, but from the force of circumstances."
He apparently misunderstands that Johnston has already left on his ride at the time he is receiving his orders from Lee, thinking he will join it or have his engineer go along.
Johnston's original route is not known, but it is likely his group rode down the Willoughby Run/Pitzer Run valley. Turning off of the Fairfield road, just to the east of Bream's hill and tavern is my guess, which may be why the possibility of being seen from the Union Signal station had not occurred to the Major, who may have taken a different route before being tasked to lead the division into place later in the afternoon.
They may have ridden all the way down to the small creek and marshy area that runs west to east southeast along the now Eisenhower property screened from Union pickets, possibly as far south as the current heliport facilities, then across the Emmitsburg road up to the slopes of "Round Top". If I didn't want to be seen and to "ride as far as practicable" to determine an enemy I know is all around hugging the low ground and forest lines is exactly the course I would take. If you map the route via Google Earth from Lee's approximate location to Bushmans Hill it is just over the four miles Johnston mentions.
There had been rain in the days before by the way, and fog is mentioned in several accounts, so both the early morning ride and later troop movements may not have been as dusty or as clear in view as imagined.
Good analysis. It’s an interesting piece to the Gettysburg puzzle.
Shut up . Y'all are so funny.
Lol
I can't help but wonder how much the outcome of the battle would have changed had Jackson been there
We will never know. But they still would have lost the war.
Jackson would have been handed his behind and sent packing back to Virginia. Assuming he didn't do a nighttime recon mission in front of his own troops like he did at Chancellorsville thereby getting himself killed.
Confederates and their Lost Causers are always scrapping the bottom of the coffins in search of heroes. There were no heroes among these traitors who had sucked off of the USA all of their adult lives.
@@addressinggettysburg I believe Gen Lee had stated that they needed to end the war there. He had not wanted an engagement there but they had to finish it. No more resources were coming from Richmond.
@@addressinggettysburg jackson ? jackson was a psychopath !!
had to give this a thumbs down for the thumbnail used. As if we need another unde focus on Joshua Embellisher Chamberlain. 1/10
lol you must have a ton of friends
Good show but way to many of you. Gets a little traffic jammed at times.
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The worst day of Gettysburg July 2nd.
Yep
the best day 😄
Tim's comments against the 20th Maine are biased and perhaps even racist. He completely dismissed any great thing that the 20th Maine did on day 2. I find it completely hard to believe that the movie Gettysburg got that aspect of the fight completely wrong. If I attended one of Tim's tour and he dismissed the 20th Maine questions as he does here, I would rip him a new one right in front of the rest of the tour group. Tim acts like he was there at the battle. In fact, allot of these soldiers didn't write their story's about the battle until 20-30 years later. The mind plays tricks after that long a period and recollections of the battle become BLURRY. WAR IS FLUID AND DYNAMIC CHANGING FROM MINUTE TO MINUTE. These guys talking about this are laughing and giggling and making fun about the battle but show zero respect to the dead. You're expecting coherent and accurate descriptions from soldiers years later? Okay Tim, I'd like to see your state of mind after you've seen dozens of men blown away in gruesome ways and get your account of the battle. I bet you'd be whimpering like a baby.
But tell us how you really feel. 😏 I’d still put my money on Tim painting a more accurate picture of what the 20th Maine did than the movie did.
wow.
Racist??!! Jesus man!!! I’ll take the word and discussion from Tim Smith who has forgotten more about the battle than you will ever know.
@@lsulaw91 then you're an idiot...I dare you to REALLY LISTEN and then honestly tell me he was being respectful...in the mean time...feel free to keep your moronic comments to yourself you fucking low life
The movie was based on a book which was primarily based on 1 primary source- Chamberlain
Meade ordered the hill be covered after Sickles moved, 20th Maine happened to be at the end the lesser important flank
20th did their job they didn’t save the army
What does race have to do with anything??
This is really stupid. this isn't history..... it's like some sports show
You’re right. I listened to your wildly successful show and plan to change formats to be more like yours. Thank you for setting us straight.
Pretty sure this dude unironically uses the term “sportsball” and refuses to season his food because it’s a sign of moral depravity or something.
I used to post negative comments on people’s TH-cam videos, but then my mom got a job.
that's just a ridiculously foolish comment
move along