V for Vendetta - What Is Anarchism? | Renegade Cut
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- What is anarchism? How is anarchism portrayed in the Alan Moore graphic novel V for Vendetta and its film adaptation? How can we face fascism in the 21st century? Support Renegade Cut Media through Patreon: / renegadecut
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V for Vendetta is a graphic novel written by Alan Moore with art by David Lloyd. It depicts a near-future England that has become a fascist police state. One individual stands up to the government, known only as V. The limited comic series contains Alan Moore's personal politics, most notably anarchism. The film version, which did not involve Moore, presented a similar fascist government but removed nearly all mentions of anarchism, save for a few oblique references and some of its aspects and features under different names. This was, perhaps, an effort not to disenfranchise its target audience who - in 2006 - were more keen to rebel against the waning George W. Bush administration than adopt anarchism as their political philosophy.
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The thing that really makes V an ambiguous character is how he tortures Evey and exposes her to the real diary in the fake prison to change her. V is not just an avatar of a principle of Anarchism. He's a damaged and very angry survivor of medical experiments and a death camp. To the extent V puts his goal of destruction and replacement of the current government (and the enlistment of Evey to that cause) above respect for Evey's rights and value as a person, he contradicts part what he says he stands for.
Exactly. That's why I really love how the creator made V as a character, because he's trying to use anarchism for what he wants to happen, but the comic isn't trying to explain what anarchism is. At least, not entirely. It's revealing parts of anarchism while showing what this character does with it. So I don't believe V should be the person to look to for the best example of ideal anarchism.
“Anarchism is democracy taken seriously.” Damn, that’s powerful.
And wrong. Democracy is also a coercive system because the majority rules over the minority.
The Anticapitalist Thats an interesting take. In your view what would a good community decision system be?
Anarchism is democracy without the state. Or voluntary socialism.
The Anticapitalist Ever heard of consensus democracy instead of representative „democracy“( what we usually classify as democracy is just a fucking oligarchy ruled by capitalists through lobbying)
Ya its democracy without representation
everyone votes on everything (:
Watching the film V for Vendetta makes me completely understand why Alan Moore hates film adaptations.
The film is more American Libertarian than Leftist.
this is so true
Nice to see you here comrade
Miss your videos bmp :)
Imho there should be a situation close to balance between the two. With too much power on the side of the people it will turn into populism to quick (and unfortunately often results into extremer governments feeding into the gutfeelings of the people instead of making good decisions). Too much power on the side of government leaves the people to weak to steer or stop a government they don't want. This is why i'm so worried about privacy, it gives more and more power to the government. Once the government goes bad, it has so much power with information that the people will be weak to counteract with. It's a lot harder to hide or organize if the government knows everything about you and tracks all communication.
Actually I thought V for Vendetta the film was pretty damned close to the source material. About as close as you can get with a translation of a graphic novel to film. I own and have read the graphic novel many times, and the movie hits the high notes. There's nothing libertarian about it.
To note an example of modern-day anarchism, the territories of Kurdish Rojava have a society built around the principles of democratic confederalism. Partially taken from the ideas of the anarchist theorist Murray Bookchin, Rojava has autonomous municipalities in which everyone in that municipality gets to decide how they want their communities to want to organize, what issues need to be addressed, all decided along with a completely democratic platform. The results of this change in democracy has resulted in one the friendliest places in the Middle East toward the LGBT community, as well as towards secular ideologies, and differing religions. This anarchism did create order out of chaos, because the ones who were actually causing the chaos were the Islamo-fascists of ISIS, who, thanks to the help of the Kurdish army (who are mostly made up of women, btw) have now been defeated. The military is also organized along democratic lines. Before any male participants become a member of the Kurdish military, they must go through a Gender studies course so they can more effectively communicate with their female comrades. The Kurdish army does have leaders, but soldiers are able to choose to follow orders if they want to, and are able to make tactical suggestions. As with the defeat ISIS, this has proven to be an extremely effective way of passing communication without going through the bureaucracy of military hierarchies. Another world is possible, and you should learn more at the kurdishquestion.com
this gives me hope
thanks for sharing
I wanted to write something clever, but, a year after this post... I just can't. It's too heartbreaking.
:(
@@jazzgb9469 What do you mean?
@@jghifiversveiws8729 i'm guessing he's referring to the US deciding the best decsion on earth is to "let them fight it out" as our current Commander in Chief decided, i.e. leaving the Kurds to fucking die by the hands of the Turkish Military, and likely allowing ISIS to come back into power immediately after they'd been subdued.
I tried to explain anarchism to a friend at work once.
"we do not want to get rid of rules, we want to get rid of rulers. We don't want to get rid of the STOP sign at the intersection. We want to get rid of the traffic cop setting up the speed trap at said intersection."
That's a good explanation
EXACTLY! such an apt summary of anarchist thought
Excellent stuff Leon, I was raised in a very right wing household that more or less treated fascism as being the norm and the 'proper way of things.' As such, I have often found your material both here and in Word Funk very challenging for the world view I've been raised with. You've really helped shine a light on the problems in the system I was raised to think of as 'normal.' UwU
Marie Kopenhafer Wow, I honestly couldn’t imagine growing up in an environment like that.
Well, from an American perspective, here's a less severe example of a fascist friendly environment: think of any home where Fox News (or any Rupert Murdock owned outlet) is on the TV.
One doesn't need to consciously identify as fascist to be a supporter of fascism. Ask most Americans if Nazis are bad and they'd say yes, but ask if the Trump policy of imprisoning child migrants and denying them things like toothbrushes, soap, or even blankets is bad and some (40% if you go by Trump approval polls from the past couple years) might genuinely say no.
When Trump shut down the US federal government for the first month of 2019, one federal worker interviewed said that Trump was currently "hurting the wrong people." So there you go.
@@Blaergh or the shit he done against the protesters
uwu
@@bensagal-morris8072 I had a similar upbringing was forced to do and say terrible things just to survive .
Heavily speak out against it all now as a. Adult
It influenced a lot of egalitarian revolutionary thoughts, but it sadly inspired many far-right wing ideological movements as well. People who wear V masks and talk about fighting tyranny can fall under the Alex Jones AnCap hyper-tea party group quite often. I'm not sure whose fault that is, the filmmakers adaptation or the far-right searcing for justification or even Alan Moore himself, but I tend to think it was just the pieces falling together at the right time. History is weird like that.
As someone with Anarchist leanings, I have to thank you for doing some good research (as usual!) and presenting the ideas in an interesting way. It's a shame the film left out so much of those ideas as it loses some of it's moral depth and become more of a good vs evil story. Ehh Hollywood *shrugs*
5:30 "The state calls its own violence law, but that of the individual, crime." - Max Stirner
Spooky
Who watching this during the 2020 George Floyd Protests?
Yup
Yup.
I'm watching it while they are still going but AFTER the media stopped covering them
Glad to see someone that understands the concept of anarchist movement as oppose to the many who believe in the misconception
So, Anarchism is kind of like a direct democracy?
Yes but on a grander scale. There's variations on how such horizontal organizations would operate but the one unifying factor is horizontal consensus decision making. Some Anarchists don't mind markets (Mutualism) so long as the ownership is horizontal (ie co-ops). Then there's anarcho-syndicalism which does have leaders but they don't wield legislative power, they're delegates of unions. Anarcho-Communism operates on a more localised level with autonomous communes.
That's a part of anarchism, yes
@@Kobolds_in_a_trenchcoat an example of what you're saying: the ancient greeks had a direct democracy, but it was unequal. if there were anarchists then they would have advocated for giving women and slaves the same decision making rights in that democracy (who would then abolish patriarchy and slavery). (incidentally, Epicurus did not like partying and excess (as is commonly thought, we have a word 'epicurean' which means that) but he did shock the establishment by treating women and slaves as equals: He said the goal of life is pleasure but his "pleasure" = 'freedom from pain in the body and from worry in the mind')
Swedsman it can be however different anarchist communes could send representatives to other communes
Besides GroundThing's points, direct democracy is not necessarily anti-capitalist, for example, which anarchism is (both historically and in principle, since capitalism presupposes domination).
This was a really good take. Also thanks for calling out transphobia.
I'm 4 years late, but I appericate people who callout transphobia, I gave them a sub. ❤
that actually cleared things up quite a bit
i have a better set of words to convince my friends to keep voting.
RESIST FASCISM
Thanks for the little an-cap sidenote
Very interesting. didnt know most of this about anarchism
As an anarchist and long time fan of your work, I love that you did this video, but don't love a lot of how you define anarchism. I choose to vote, but that's hardly universal amongst anarchists and I honestly feel conflicted about my choice.
The issue with representative democracy is that it isn't really representative. I get to pick from a list of priveleged elites who don't share my experiences and will never vote for me or any constituent on a 1:1 basis. If I lived in a seat where I had no chance of my preferred (yet still imperfect) candidate winning, my representative in government would never represent me. Were I pro-choice in Alabama, for instance, I'd have a hard time being represented by someone who represented me. A refusal to participate in a system that does not represent you is a worthy ideal. I begrudgingly participate for the tactical reasons you outline, but this actually puts me in a minority amongst my immediate peers and comrades.
Anarchism is democracy taken seriously in so far as anarchism would reform democratic principles so that they become more directly representative.
Anyway, love the channel, solidarity, etc.
Two of the issues with representative democracy, particularly in America, are that it hasn't properly scaled with the population, and our very system of voting is undemocratic. Congress should have tens of thousands of members, not 435 + 100. We should have many viable parties, not two. In this regard, the experiment has failed.
I got the impression that "anarchism is democracy taken seriously" is not so much about participating through voting in a representative democracy, but rather that anarchism applies democracy to all aspects of society. For instance, democracy in the workplace and the economy, where liberal democracies promote undemocratic workplaces and undemocratic systems of ownership.
I showed this to my son after he looked shocked when I told him I am in favour of anarchism (with the goal of creating true communism). I'm not trying to indoctrinate him (maybe just plant a few seeds), but I do want him to know what anarchism means and what it hopes to achieve and how.
This is hands down one of the most important video's and channels I have yet to encounter anywhere. Thank you so much for this.
10:16 This line reminds me of how people lost their minds when President Trump was elected. Black Americans were telling people for years how bad this country was and that it was extremely possible that he would defeat Hilary yet everyone ignored the warnings. The second President Trump was elected and made it clear that other groups would be targeted, then everyone had something to say. Everyone wanted to hold hands and fight the power.
This may have been one of the early essays that got me interested into anarchism
I never knew V was an anarchist, anarchists have been badly represented in my life. I feel I could actually get along with an Anarchist now.
Always happy to see Emma Goldman brought into the conversation.
Holy shit you guys got anarchism right and explained it concisely and simply! Thank you!!!
I'm one guy, not guys, but you're welcome.
welcome to june 2020 where V for Vendetta becomes true
In my opinion, this is your best video so far. Excellent introduction to anarchism.
There exists a series of documentaries of ARTE about the history of anarchism. About its
beginning, first sucesses, its turn away from violence and its tragedies and its disappearing
under the domination of the ideas of communism and its antagonist, which performed itself as democracy.
I guess it is on You Tube.
You do good work; keep it up. I fly my red and black proudly. Depressing how many conservatives think they're portrayed as the good guys in V (and in reality). We can win this fight, sisters and brothers. Hope is better than despair.
Black Lives Matter. blue lives murder
Ursula K. LeGuin constructed two societies in her book The Dispossessed back 1976. One society was ultra-capitalist/fascist and the other was anarchist. Because, it came out during the cold war, most people, including myself, mistook the anarchist society for communist. The ultra-capitalist society was not as violent and it used the soft power of fame and wealth to gain its advantage. Although the two societies are at war (though, I believe there was an armistice in place), the thrust of the novel was about the inner human conflict about wanting recognition for one's work and the good of society.
Thank you for making this well-thought-out, easily understandable piece of content. This will be very useful for saving time explaining anarchism to those with little or no understanding of what anarchism actually is. I especially enjoyed the quote that anarchism is "democracy taken seriously". I had not heard this before and I think that may be the single best sentence in this entire piece. Well done and thanks again. Best wishes from Seattle, WA.
As somebody who has plowed through most of your catalogue in the past week or so, this video ranks high up on my favorite ones. Really explains a lot of core concepts in society I was aware of, but never really comprehended properly.
Thank you for accurately describing anarchism.
This is my new favorite video of yours!
So by the definition of fasicism presented here. The US government can be classified as a type of fasicism?
I find myself identifying a lot with the mentioned anarchist ideals you mentioned in this video. Thank you for assembling this video, and thank you for educating me on a topic that has been entirely glossed over in my schooling. I'll definitely be doing more research.
I cant believe I turned down the request to watch this movie with my ex, I should ask her to watch it
Thanks for this. Maybe I have more in common with anarchists than I realized.
I really honestly prefer the graphic novel to be honest. For me the movie is quite good to an extent but the novel is on a whole other league
1:43 is that Stephen Fry?!
Yes it is. He plays a character in the film
November 5th is also Eugene Debs' birthday. His first and middle initials are E.V. (Evey) and he was imprisoned like Evey.
I dunno if the parallels are intentional, but I find them interesting.
One fictional example of anarchism I find particularly interesting is the anarchist nation Outer Heaven the Metal Gear series, where a group of Cold War era soldiers from various nations on both sides of the war reject the idea that serving in a countries military allows them to fight for purely just reasons, as they will also be fighting for the political agendas of their nations leaders, so they start a nation of soldiers of all creeds, races, genders, and sexualities that hire themselves out as mercenaries to any job that meets their own personal criteria of a just cause.
That wasn't the point of Outer Heaven. Outer Heaven was Big Boss' take on The Boss' will of a place where soldiers will always have a place for themselves and not be used by governments. He left off the other half of what she wanted, a unified world which is what The La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo took up. In all actuality, it's the story of capitalism vs communism. Both are incomplete ideologies that need each other to be perfected yet can't exist on its own while the other exists. If you combine capitalism(prosperity) with communism(public sharing), you have a community where everyone is sharing in the prosperity.
A perfect example in MGS is the fact that Outer Heaven and the threat that every version(Shadow Moses, Big Shell and PMC) of it posed actually united the rest of the world but Outer Heaven itself will always be separate from it.
+ZoanBlade90 No one's really the "bad guy," I hold that the story is more of a protagonist/antagonists story than a good guy/bad guy story. It's like how The Boss alludes in Snake Eater, heroes and villains are a matter of perspective.
Can you do a video about Cabaret? It would be a great companion.
actually i did that experiment built a community literally from tents to houses and we had a total anarchistic community and it worked. all along with a bunch of other people
This message is feeling particularly spicy these days! It's good to see that many people across the world are feeling a lot less comfortable under the boots of the authoritarians.
So in D&D terms anarchism is neutral good?
The D&D alignment system isn't supposed to align (heh) with political systems. Neutral Good is someone who strives to do the right thing, but is less concerned with "general principle" than with doing that is right in a specific situation. They don't despise law and order like Chaotics do, but they don't mind breaking them if they think they must. Think of the protagonists of classical Hollywood Westerns; that's the archetype of a Neutral Good character.
Ironically, an anarchist would probably be Lawful in D&D terms. Neutrals think that rules and institutions matter less than the decisions we make as individuals; anarchists believe that we need to bring down the current political and economical system and build a new one if we want to fix the problems of society; and that's a Lawful mindset.
Still a good movie and a great film, that brought me to the channel and kept me there. Especially with the newer content. Just made me think - maybe a new specific video about anarchism? Giving a 101 crash course for the people not in the know or just to have it handy as a vid? I would be interested.
Well shit....I think I may be an anarchist.
...huh, guess I'm an anarchist
never would've known
I have a friend who used to, in the same breath, both denounce anarchism as stabby-land and yearn for a minarchist society. He has since identified where minarchism fails to support individual liberty, and I did my best to try and explain what anarchists actually believe. This dialog led me to question some aspects of anarchism, however.
In the context of anarchism, is "ruler" synonymous with elected officials and lawmakers? If so, then how can an anarchist society adapt to changing technology if it has no one to create new laws? Laws, like goals, need to be SMART (specific, measureable, actionable, etc), so for example, if it turns out that a chemical that was previously considered benign, but is newly identified as a pollutant and contributing to health problems, how does that society ensure the chemical is handled properly? I don't think having a law stating "don't pollute" will cut it, since you need to have a consensus on what qualifies as a pollutant, and safety measures for handling them.
I understand that the goal is voluntary cooperation with limited or nonexistent hierarchies, but that seems like an ideal that we won't achieve anytime soon, and I'm interested in hearing an anarchist's perspective on adapting to future problems.
I'm apparently an Anarchist but we all have that one friend who claimed to be an Anarchist without actually knowing what true anarchism was and made calling yourself an Anarchist feel super cringe.
It was surprising, it was this video that i stumbled across a while back was what got me thinking and I started looking into Anarchism. I find that I agree with Anarchism now, I'm not sure how everything works yet, but change seems necessary.
this sounds like an ideology I can get behind. Thank you, Leon, for your educational material. I learned a lot today
I am an anarcho-communist and I just want to thank you for taking anarchism seriously and treating it as more than "chaos go brr". I hope you have a lovely day
Topical.
There's actually a bit of debate among anarchists about whether to engage in a failed democracy like what we have in the US. Some believe as the video states, that the worst that can happen when voting is nothing. Others believe that by voting, you lend legitimacy to an otherwise illegitimate tyranny of the working class.
It's too bad that the film doesn't include V's conversation atop the Old Bailey with the statue of Lady Justice. It was beautiful.
It’s stated that anarchists believe we should listen to AN authority (someone who is knowledgeable at a subject enough so their judgement means something) but not IN authority (someone who is in power through the state)
I don't think I understand why the American right wing likes to claim anything related to anarchism. Ayn Rand didn' like Anarcho-capitalism.
Ayn Rand was a tool, not even a true libertarian for those into that type of thing. Her entire life was based upon stealing from others.
Bioshock did a good job of portraying her type of objectivism.
Of course, the current administration continues to wank it to her.
Same with Mises and Nozick.
'why the Nazis tried to claim "socialism"' 'It's popular to be associated with "freedom"'. I hope you aren't trying to say giving more power to the government gives you more freedom.
Socialism never meant giving more power to government even in it's most governmental forms.
the criteria for fascism perfectly define current day Egypt.
Alan Moore is the only person with a beard that tops Marx.
Kropotkin: Hold my bread
v's methods may have been extreme
but he was in an extreme situation
Nice video, though I wish you would've talked about the Guy Fawkes mask and how the guy that inspired the mask is contradictory to anarchism
Watching this during BLM protest hits hard
5:36 sorry didn’t realise we were waiting for permission XD
Amazing video! I learned so much. I had not much education on the subject of anarchism, but now I feel I finally understand it. I don't know if I'll consider myself an anarchist because I honestly feel humans have a way to ruin things, but I at least understand and appreciate people who do believe this way and respect their opinions.
You can try reading kropotkin's "mutual aid" and of course "the breadbook". These two books do a very good job debunking the "humans are bad in nature" nonsense. It certainly restored my faith in humanity when I read them..
v for vendetta is just the cooler version of 1984
Why isn’t anyone more concerned about stopping it before it’s too late? It will literally be too late once it’s too late so why isn’t action more urgent? Those of us who can see it coming right around the corner are sick with the feeling not of it happening as much as seeing people realize it’s too late and knowing if only they’d acted earlier in spite of realization it could all have been avoided.
Very interesting. I never knew that such an interesting basis for anarchism and honestly, the media clearly did not give an explanation of this term. As the video has a high status and it's interesting to watch. Very knowledgeable. But for some reason, I suspect that the comic is better than the movie. The League of Exceptional Gentlemen is just a bomb, not to mention the strong character of the characters .... All the while as usual is just a super video. Thank you.
It honestly feels like all the right-wing values I was raised with are coming tumbling down as I continue to see how far extremists are willing to go in the name of nationalism and safety. This was an amazing and powerful video! Thank you mate.
I would say V was my first real interest in anarchism (as a serious ideology) as a young adult, even if I didn't understand it to be that.
I do not think V for Vendetta portrays modern State and capitalism today (in a way that it could by using something less radical). What we have equated to fascism is seen as hyperbolic in depiction (even though, historically, fascist descent has been seen many times). I could imagine some could not see how anarchism would critique what we have now.
Centrists are particularly difficult to reach because they don't recognize the State for what it is. They still have faith in the system regulating itself, giving in to what the State has to offer them.
great work as always leon. thank you.
Thank you for shouting out Anarcho-Pacifism! I'm an Anarcho-Pacifist myself! Well, it's more like I'm a pacifist who's also an anarchist, and I was a pacifist first before I came to class consciousness. Idk if you'd call that Anarcho-Pacifism exactly, but whatever lol
i like how he calls out ancaps as well
i just watched this film, loved it, i noticed the V symbol is like the Anarchy symbol upside down, idk that's probably common knowledge to Vendetta fans. I want to read the comics now, i loved watchmen but never realized Alan Moore wrote V for Vendetta as well. V cool
An Anarchist should be a disciplined person - set an example to those who need laws to justify their conduct.
Behave well, help others wherever and whenever you can. And pick up your litter!
Wow I'm so dumb for this discussion, and here I thought I'd be seeing shit blow up and someone quotes the poem😂😅
Any books for a beginner?
I am an anarchist but I never tell anyone because everyone thinks it's about drawing "A's" on your notebook at school and hating everything lol
The film is rubbish. It has nothing to do with V for Vendetta. If it had been cleverly written, it would have had a backstory of a pandemic like the one we're dealing with today, not the clumsily written conspiracy of the film.
I remember when in 2021 at Canda there was a protersers Honkers that wanted communism but the men in the truckers was actors.
If the use of violence is an automatic,disqualifier for a political ideology or social movement, then basically everything is disqualified. Capitalism, democracy, communism, everything. Because the violence of the state is taken as a right, and the violence of its citizens towards the state is taken as the breaking of a sacred Law.
Huh. That sounds more like my ideas about how Democracy should work than what I thought Anarchy was.
Short version; in the currant system, we vote for politicians and politicians vote for laws, and on very rare ocasions, we vote for laws, but that’s only when we change the constitition like keeping/removing the Queen or adopting conscriotion. I think politicians should be allowed to SUGEST new laws but WE should vote for or against ALL laws, not just constitutional changes. I freely admit it’s not perfect, and won’t work in a country with too much religion, but better than Democracy as we know it.
Most anarchists want direct democracy, they want to vote on the issues themselves instead of voting for representatives (politicians) who vote on the issues because they think representative democracy leads to a political class and the power structure that comes with it. If a country (or any organization) is very large managing it by direct democracy is impractical, and that's why most anarchists think large countries with huge populations are a thing to avoid. That's why most anarchists tend to organize in relatively small collectives, the largest anarchist structures are syndicates (activist labor unions).
Great Video. Would love to see a Watchmen episode sometime
I'm pretty sure he already did watchmen
So there's a chance you'll do Watchmen?
Johnny said it best; i wanna be Anarchy.......
This story was poignant in its year of release. In August 2020, it’s meta.
Thank you for covering this, V For Vendetta is literally my favorite movie!! And unlike a lot of people, you seem to actually understand what anarchy is.
5:47 You can't even fight things out as a young boy anymore. You catch a lawsuit and possible jail time if so
That moment when you realize all the things you've believed as a child are anarchism and you now know this at 20
Guess I've always been an anarchist
The part at 10:16 is chilling in the light of 2020 events.
Great analysis, keep up the great work.
Pretty insane to watch this now right after Trump's July 4th speech -- where hits about 11/14 of those fascist characteristics.
I would be fascinated to see a cross-section of the comments on this video.
This is more relevant and important than it was when you originally posted it.
Good job!
Have fun sifting through the comments on this one Leon! Great video as always!
Thank you very much for this video. One of those things I never knew I needed to hear until I heard it.
HOLY FUCKING SHIT, THANK YOU!!! 🚩🏴
I love how everyone misjudged the movie and fails to spot the real take and real subject, which is control trough artificially created fear. Through artificially created incidents and a sentiment of insecurity. With the fact that people will trade freedom for security. Check both V for Vendetta and the fun monologue found in the Winter Warrior
Anarchism - Libertarianism but good.
"...it depicts a near future England that has become a fascist police state..."
"near future", yeah. Right.
Probably the best of your videos I've seen so far.
Anarchism and socialism are order and justice.
Anarchism is pretty great NGL.