The snow that fell in the Buffy Christmas episode Amends may have been Jasmine as part of her big plan. Ironically, it was also an episode that featured the First Evil. I like to think Jasmine and the First have a sort of cold war going on between each other for who gets to start the apocalypse first.
The powers that be have been at war since the first light . The powers that be just had a rogue faction that wanted to act more and help more against darkness and the more orthodox ones just watch. Season three of Buffy on is a domino effect of the disruption of the slayer line where we see both light and dark breaking bf the rules and making moves independently of agents and champions on earth. While Angel was brought back from h3ll the first was already unaliving potentials . The moment Buffy and Kendra coexisted it brought about the powers that be a power and the first to break cosmic rules for these two apocalyptic scenarios in both series in this universe .
Don't be creeped out. Jasmine is here to give us all the gift of peace and love. All you have to do is take in that love. I'm more shocked that Fred is evil.
After 5x5 the best Fangel(us) episode. Faith witnessing some of Angels key moments through the decades adds a new layer in the bond between them. It's a great experience to see how much Faith has grown.
Yes, thank you for having some compassion for Connor and understanding how awful this situation is for him. Yes he is annoying but that doesn’t remove from the fact that he is still a teenager being manipulated into an abusive relationship and that manipulation definitely follows a pattern he was raised with. Also, I know a lot of people hate this season and with reason looking at all the Charisma stuff, but for me the Jasmine storyline is SO worthy. I love when these shows subvert expectations like that, we are expecting a big bad that is mean and directly evil, and we get a very nice lady that just wants peace and love (apparently!)
I like to think of Fred as what Willow would have been if Jenny had not been unalived by Angeleus, that death forced Willow to dabble in the magic and ultimately open up the channel when she restored Angels soul. If those events didn’t happen we would have just book nerd Willow albeit more assertive from her time with Oz but we wouldn’t have no witchcraft and no Tara . Also , I don’t think Buffy would have survived Adam season 4 without the enjoining spell using first slayer power. I will give her the mayor since Willow magic wasn’t strong enough to play a big part senior year against him.
I like that it feels like Jasmine with her pure good is here kind of to balance the pure evil in Sunnydale, like a cosmic way to keep the equilibrium in the magic and the world.
4X15 My 2nd favorite AtS episode (4th favorite overall, including comics and audio) in my least favorite AtS season (least favorite overall, including comics and audio). Angelus being pissed off at the same time Faith is half amused and half aww-ing is one of the best moments in the series, for me. Fred and Willow in the same room is something that should have happened sooner. Fred's arrival while Willow was there to tell Angel Buffy died notwithstanding. Angel may be the prefferred one to be on the outside, but Angelus is cursed with Angel. Angel is not cursed. It's a distinction that even in-universe characters can get wrong because of what Faith says about Angel belonging on the outside. The actors who played Wesley and Willow were not married at this point. Angel vs Angelus, while great, would have been better if Faith wasn't there. Angel was too concerned to have it out the way fans all wanted. "Arf! Arf! Psycho" takes me back to when she though she teamed up with Angelus in BtVS S3. How far Faith has come is amazing. So satisfying watching Faith give Connor his "whoppin'" 4x16 Cutting out Cordelia being offended at Angel calling her self important and other such names was so sad. 4x17 Finally! The exposition for what the f - #@& is going on. At this point it was too little too late to save the season. But would it have been a better season if the audience knew in advance what the characters didn't. I personally don't think so. I am someone who can live with this season as long as I fast forward the Connor and Cordelia are alone together scenes, but even then and with potential changes that could have been made and the behind the scenes issues Joss created, it is still the worst season. I would love to know what the original arc was before they wrote in a Cordelia storyline for Carisma's pregnancy. I don't think it's ever been revealed, though. Cordelia was right. After everything she did, Angel finding out how he did was dumb. I like the idea that since Cordelia is unreachable as the conduit for The PTB, they use Darla with a soul hoping to connect to Connor. I know the other theory with The First Evil, and I don't see anything wrong with it, but I personally prefer the battle for Connor's soul, with a good and evil angel on each shoulder - metaphorically speaking shoulder-wise - rather than adding another layer to it with The First, but that's just me. I also like the idea of knowing what Darla could of been like as a human and not dying (plus I believe The First would have changed tactics once Connor was set 100% on killing the girl), so my head canon has nothing to do with The First. 4x18 Gina Torres!!!
I've always just headcanoned that Skip was just bullshitting the extent of Jasmine's influence over everyone's lives. He offers no actual proof of his claims. Just "Hey, remember that big thing that happened to you? Yep, that was her." I mean, what ardent follower of a deity wouldn't hype them up like they're the reason behind everything? Skip is no different than the scabs that worshipped Glory with their every breath.
So it was confirmed in the commentary for the episode that Darla was in fact sent by the orthodox power that be . There are two factions of that powers that be orthodox and unorthodox kinda like in TVD you have the spirit witches and then you have the Travelers.
That's why I dislike the whole revelation in episode 17 Inside Out, as you described 42:29-42:37 it basically spits in the face of Cordelia's character because its telling us that these choices weren't to develop her character, but it was determined for her as a masterplan to get her possessed by the beastmaster. Every choice the characters made had been determined for them, I don't like that.
Season 4 is such a mixed bag. To me it contains the very best and very worst of the series as a whole. It doesn't help that most of the bad choices this season seem to be born out of Joss' spite at Charisma getting pregnant (the Connor/Cordy 'relationship', the shitting on Cordy's growth in episode 17, and the conclusion of Cordy's character arc this season.) It just feels like most of Cordy's presence on screen this season was an extended punishment by Joss against Charisma.
"Some great evil takes credit for bringing you back and you buy it?" -- Buffy, Amends (BtVS S2E10) Simply because Whedon likes to put truth in the mouths of evil characters doesn't mean those characters never lie. As the adage goes, "The best place to hide a lie is in a kernel of truth." Cordy made the choices she did based on who she was. Jasmine & her followers simply used their knowledge of her to their advantage. It may have been a bit of a gamble, but not really. Not when one considers the insights that higher beings have into people. The risk of Cordy making a selfish choice in the face of being able to do greater good was highly unlikely. Also, they would've had a contingency plan. At least, they should've. Jasmine was playing a game of chess against opponents who didn't know that they were playing. Nothing more. Skip was messing with their heads, destroying their morale. Who knows, maybe he even drank the Kool-Aid. ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
And the best speech of the series is the "the only thing that matters is what we do", and this story undercuts that to make everything some entity's higher plan. I think all of the characters, Cordie especially, deserved better.
But that's part of the show's message - if all is predetermined and nothing matters, nothing ever amounts to some grand reward, then what matters is each individual choice we make. The meaning in Cordelia's choices and actions is the lives she saved right there and then - not some grand outcome that might or might not have been predetermined. If nothing matters then all that matters is what we do.
@@MyFeuerFrey The show's message is that we create the meaning in our lives through our choices. In a predetermined universe choice is an illusion, which flies in the face of choices having any meaning or mattering at all. While Whedon does like to put truths in the mouths of evil beings, it doesn't mean that everything that they say is true. ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
45:20 There is a fan theory that Darla was the First Evil, because the First didn’t like the competition with what’s about to emerge. But it remains just that: a fan theory. Not canon. It’s likely just Darla’s ghost.
Everyone from Firefly seemed to end in in BTVS and Angel. Here we see Gina Torres in Inside Out come to life in a bazaar ending, and Angel goes to his knees in awe of her, another rollercoaster of episodes we just know is going to follow. A very dark episode with Connor saving the Virgin girl from a vampire only for her to be given to Cordelia for human sacrifice, we are hoping she will escape, and even Darla appearing to Connor to beg him to not do it does not work. Cordelia still has just too much power over him. This of course is very disturbing as the girl mentions her mother, but the evil in Cordelia wins out. A brilliant scene with Wes doing his 'Hot Fuzz' bit with the gun finally dispatching Skip. A fairly decent episode, it was of course hard to match the 'Angelus Saga' but another one has now just become with this strange woman at the end. You are in for another wild ride with this new character.
7:16 this isn’t an original thought, but i love it so im leaving it here: fred and willow have more chemistry in 5 minutes than willow and kennedy every did😂
Funny enough so we are watching Liam the human . Angel is a mystical by product of a curse and prison for Angelus . Angel is Angeleus immortal prison a synthetic being . The only problem with the curse is why release a beast w happiness to harm innocent ppl 😅?! Also yes Angel and Buffy’s teams are in constant communication even if not seen on tv . I always wondered why Willow and Tara never thought to use another soul restoration spell instead of the Gypsy curse to remove the threat of Angeleus ? Obviously there are other soul restoration spells and the one used on Spike. Just side question throughout the years …😅?
Same. Spike’s soul is permanent. Willow became so powerful that she can rewrite reality. It would have been easy for her to amend or cast a new spell to make Angel’s soul permanent as well. The writers just wrote themselves into a corner they could easily write out of. But chose not to, to keep artificial drama.
I prefer to think that Darla’s ghost was the First. She was done, at peace. No sense in stirring her bones, or dust in her case, like Willow did to Buffy.
It suddenly occurs to me that the whole "story with scope" explanation, which I've always seen as a massively unconvincing attempted retcon for everything that's messed up in this season's storytelling (I also hate how it makes my man Skip one of the bad guys), may actually be an enormous intended irony. The 'story with scope' says that everyone's choices meant nothing, that they have no free will. When Jasmine appears what does she do? Takes away everyone's free will! I prefer Gunn's rebuttal. That the supposed plan reached this point was incredible luck (and horribly forced writing).
so funny thing i didnt keep up with angel when it aired so when faith came to sunnydale it really was a shock for me. i didnt know she was in angel til later. also she mentioned the jail incident and i just thought it was off screen
With Angelus Saga over, we know have the Christ Like Figure of Jasmine in Shiny Happy People who is able to control all others to do her will for good. Of course this all seems too good to be true and it is. Fred eventually sees the other side of Jasmine but make the fatal error of telling Wesley who is still very much a disciple of Jasmine, and he of course tells Gunn. Fred has been to the Psych ward to see John who tried to kill Jasmine. We can see definite X-Files vibes again when John warns Fred on the way out 'Trust No One' one of the tags from The X-Files series. Angel takes the arrow for Jasmine, and Fred is now on the run. As Jasmine says let her go, we will have eyes everywhere tomorrow, and of course Jasmine gets on TV so all people are now being indoctrinated by her. Fred now has to plot a lonely course. A good episode full of intrigue and suspense we all hope Fred can convince the others, we shall see.
I feel bad for Connor because he's basically treated like the Riley of the Angel show by the fandom. I think it's because no one cares to see things from his POV. He's also like Dawn, was never meant to exist. Yet people seem to have such a tolerance for Dawn and all the whiny selfish behavior she did. I saw a few of her good moments, but she spent a lot of time being a bratty teen. She was given false positive memories of growing up in a loving home. She was welcomed and loved by the Scoobies because of her being a part of Buffy Connor was given NO such grace. He was born to two demons, stolen from his father and the gang to be raised by a rightfully angry and bitter vampire hunter in a horrible demon dimension. Holtz didn't raise him with nurturing love, but treated him more like a bloodhound in training, to make him a killer. He was brainwashed to hate Angel. He knew nothing of interacting with people so he had no social skills. He used what he knew from how he was taught. He was trained to be "The Destroyer". Whenever he expresses his feeling people treat him like he's not allowed to have any. ...Like he's not a lost and confused teen. People say yuck and gross about him and Cordelia as if HE should feel horrible about it because of what they knew about his life, that he doesn't. He doesn't remember Cordelia holding him as a baby. So why should he feel weirded out about caring for her? The way people root for him to be beat up or hurt or always saying he shouldn't say this or that. His feelings of frustration are valid because he doesn't know how to walk through the human world or how to trust his instincts with how to deal with them when he has been manipulated since birth. Now Cordelia is messing with his insecurities about not being a good father, knowing he has daddy issues (from both Angel and Holtz). The moment he starts wondering if he should be asking questions is when she pulls his chain a little more to keep him controlled. Connor is the victim. He's met Angelus so now he has an understanding of how he's different than Angel. That may be when he started asking what's really happening. I loved Willow showing up. I believe her and Alexis married the next year. I just think his character deserved better, like Riley and given more understanding like Dawn.
I would’ve loved an epilogue episode after the finale of Buffy and Angel, where the two meet up, just to spend a day together. Just hanging out. And I’d have _loved_ Dawn and Connor to have struck up a sincere friendship with one another.
Is she evil? The answer is: *No.* It’s one of those very morally grey areas where she used foul acts and evil methods to procure sincerely virtuous designs. But will nevertheless continue performing small acts of isolated evil actions to maintain general peace and goodness. She’s just a Power from the Powers that Be that got angry and inpatient with the inaction the forces of Good were taking to fight the forces of Evil. And then she developed an ego.
The Jasmine storyline is a spin on Christian interpretations of the end of the world, including the coming of a great Beast, as well as an Antichrist figure who falsely gains the attention and admiration of the people who then follow blindly.
The actor that plays Conner is good I loved him from mad men but Angel did him dirty. And honestly I don’t even hate his character like most people because maybe I’m closer to his age idk I understand some of his actions he was groomed by “Cordelia”. But the way they write him it’s great. If I’m gonna be honest I don’t really like anyone in season 4 everyone gets on my nerves lol
07:07 - 07:08 *ME TOO!!!!* 💗❤ And this would be a better ship than any canonical one Winny ever had!🙄 07:09 - 07:12 So _what?_ Willow was too till ep 4x11!!😤 *Connor in a Nutshell:* 11:31 - 11:34 0:51:46 *JASMINE!!!!!!* 🤩 Finally she's here!!!!!!💙🙇♂
It's hilarious that the story is completely pulled out of the writers' a$$ scrambling to make it make sense and then they pretend this was Jasmine's plan from the beginning
Skip didn't mean that they made all those things happen. Only that they counted on them happening because, as we know, the powers have the ability to read the future. So they chose Cordy based on what was likely to happen, not that they made it happen. As Skip said, it all depended on a bunch of certain events to occur as they did.
I think Orpheus was a great episode within the Angelus Saga during the show. Willow is now called upon to try and re-soul Angel. With Faith and Angelus somewhat comatose here, they share the same dreams similar to previous episodes of BTVS with Buffy and Angel. The Cordelia/Willow exchange is interesting as Cordelia knows of Willow's power and a great scene when the knife is thrown hitting the door. Super surreal dream scene in the Diner with Angelus/Faith and Angel back in the 1970s. Angel puts Mandy on the jukebox, a throwback to when he first sang in Lorne's club. A great scene when Willow is sent flying across the foyer by Cordelia but responds with powerful magic herself. Again terrific dream scene in the alleyway ( this show loves alleyways ) where we see Angelus and Faith see Angel scavenging for rats. Willow's power eventually breaks the glass, and we revert again to the alleyway scene. Cordelia is able to manipulate Connor as we tend to forget he is still very young, and not as experienced as Cordelia, so is easily led by a kind of blind teenage love crush which she is able to use against him. The real battle of course is in the subconscious mind of Angelus and Faith where Angel is begging Faith to wake up. The awakening scene is brilliant, we know Cordelia told Connor to kill Angelus, who we now know has been restored to Angel. Faith grabbing the stake as Connor is about to kill Angel and whooping Connor's butt, is one of the most satisfying scenes ever. Some light relief and the end where everyone is saying goodbyes, but then we see Cordelia come down the stairs showing her pregnancy bump. All in all a brilliant episode with complex plot and writing reaching new levels.
I mean the setup was already there for her to be possessed by the big evil this season, but her being pregnant meant she couldn't record as much, right? So he switched it to impregnating her? Was there another way that would make more sense? Not that I'm justifying how she was treated, I'm just not sure he was going for what you are saying.
@@Heldemon Or the writers and producers moved heaven and earth to keep CC on the show and pay her hundreds of thousands of dollars to do so because she didn't let anyone know she was pregnant?
Don't talk rot, CC herself was supposed to be the villain but her not telling anyone she was pregnant meant the writers/producers had to invent the pregnancy storyline on the fly, she has nothing to complain about and everyone else who had to work around her deserve our sympathy.
No, AH and AD don't get married until season 5 of Angel. For me Orpheus is the single best ep of Angel ever, I mean Willow and Faith as guest stars, what's not to love? Yes, much of the rest seems disjointed and illogical but because CC didn't tell anyone about her pregnancy the writers/producers had to make it up as they went along and retroactively try to make things fit.
Funny enough so we are watching Liam the human . Angel is a mystical by product of a curse and prison for Angelus . Angel is Angeleus immortal prison a synthetic being . The only problem with the curse is why release a beast w happiness to harm innocent ppl 😅?! Also yes Angel and Buffy’s teams are in constant communication even if not seen on tv . I always wondered why Willow and Tara never thought to use another soul restoration spell instead of the Gypsy curse to remove the threat of Angeleus ? Obviously there are other soul restoration spells and the one used on Spike. Just side question throughout the years …😅?
In fairy tales there is often mundane ways to break curses, an inherent weakness in spells. (Ie. true love’s kiss in “Sleeping Beauty” or “Beauty and the Beast”.) The Angel curse is just a twisted play on that trope. 😢 So If you need to head canon it ; the constraints of the curse is a cost to do that spell/curse (and Spike’s probably had a different cost; presumably one that good characters might be abhorrent to do 🤷🏻.)
The snow that fell in the Buffy Christmas episode Amends may have been Jasmine as part of her big plan. Ironically, it was also an episode that featured the First Evil. I like to think Jasmine and the First have a sort of cold war going on between each other for who gets to start the apocalypse first.
woah that makes a whole lot of sense
This would also kinda work with some theories I’ve read about Darla’s appearance to Connor was actually the First, trying to stop Jasmine’s arrival
Why would anyone so evil want to go to war against something as beautiful and loving as Jasmine.
Pretty sure the oracles or whoever in the first season mention the Powers were the ones to do that.
The powers that be have been at war since the first light . The powers that be just had a rogue faction that wanted to act more and help more against darkness and the more orthodox ones just watch. Season three of Buffy on is a domino effect of the disruption of the slayer line where we see both light and dark breaking bf the rules and making moves independently of agents and champions on earth. While Angel was brought back from h3ll the first was already unaliving potentials . The moment Buffy and Kendra coexisted it brought about the powers that be a power and the first to break cosmic rules for these two apocalyptic scenarios in both series in this universe .
Don't be creeped out. Jasmine is here to give us all the gift of peace and love. All you have to do is take in that love. I'm more shocked that Fred is evil.
😂 Yea !
After 5x5 the best Fangel(us) episode. Faith witnessing some of Angels key moments through the decades adds a new layer in the bond between them. It's a great experience to see how much Faith has grown.
Yes, thank you for having some compassion for Connor and understanding how awful this situation is for him. Yes he is annoying but that doesn’t remove from the fact that he is still a teenager being manipulated into an abusive relationship and that manipulation definitely follows a pattern he was raised with.
Also, I know a lot of people hate this season and with reason looking at all the Charisma stuff, but for me the Jasmine storyline is SO worthy. I love when these shows subvert expectations like that, we are expecting a big bad that is mean and directly evil, and we get a very nice lady that just wants peace and love (apparently!)
I like to think of Fred as what Willow would have been if Jenny had not been unalived by Angeleus, that death forced Willow to dabble in the magic and ultimately open up the channel when she restored Angels soul. If those events didn’t happen we would have just book nerd Willow albeit more assertive from her time with Oz but we wouldn’t have no witchcraft and no Tara . Also , I don’t think Buffy would have survived Adam season 4 without the enjoining spell using first slayer power. I will give her the mayor since Willow magic wasn’t strong enough to play a big part senior year against him.
the 8 ball rolling and saying ask again later, was a response to angel asking what are u
Gina Torres who plays Jasmine here, played Zoe on Firefly.
I like that it feels like Jasmine with her pure good is here kind of to balance the pure evil in Sunnydale, like a cosmic way to keep the equilibrium in the magic and the world.
4X15 My 2nd favorite AtS episode (4th favorite overall, including comics and audio) in my least favorite AtS season (least favorite overall, including comics and audio).
Angelus being pissed off at the same time Faith is half amused and half aww-ing is one of the best moments in the series, for me.
Fred and Willow in the same room is something that should have happened sooner. Fred's arrival while Willow was there to tell Angel Buffy died notwithstanding.
Angel may be the prefferred one to be on the outside, but Angelus is cursed with Angel. Angel is not cursed. It's a distinction that even in-universe characters can get wrong because of what Faith says about Angel belonging on the outside.
The actors who played Wesley and Willow were not married at this point.
Angel vs Angelus, while great, would have been better if Faith wasn't there. Angel was too concerned to have it out the way fans all wanted.
"Arf! Arf! Psycho" takes me back to when she though she teamed up with Angelus in BtVS S3. How far Faith has come is amazing.
So satisfying watching Faith give Connor his "whoppin'"
4x16 Cutting out Cordelia being offended at Angel calling her self important and other such names was so sad.
4x17 Finally! The exposition for what the f - #@& is going on. At this point it was too little too late to save the season. But would it have been a better season if the audience knew in advance what the characters didn't. I personally don't think so. I am someone who can live with this season as long as I fast forward the Connor and Cordelia are alone together scenes, but even then and with potential changes that could have been made and the behind the scenes issues Joss created, it is still the worst season. I would love to know what the original arc was before they wrote in a Cordelia storyline for Carisma's pregnancy. I don't think it's ever been revealed, though.
Cordelia was right. After everything she did, Angel finding out how he did was dumb.
I like the idea that since Cordelia is unreachable as the conduit for The PTB, they use Darla with a soul hoping to connect to Connor. I know the other theory with The First Evil, and I don't see anything wrong with it, but I personally prefer the battle for Connor's soul, with a good and evil angel on each shoulder - metaphorically speaking shoulder-wise - rather than adding another layer to it with The First, but that's just me. I also like the idea of knowing what Darla could of been like as a human and not dying (plus I believe The First would have changed tactics once Connor was set 100% on killing the girl), so my head canon has nothing to do with The First.
4x18 Gina Torres!!!
I've always just headcanoned that Skip was just bullshitting the extent of Jasmine's influence over everyone's lives. He offers no actual proof of his claims. Just "Hey, remember that big thing that happened to you? Yep, that was her." I mean, what ardent follower of a deity wouldn't hype them up like they're the reason behind everything? Skip is no different than the scabs that worshipped Glory with their every breath.
So it was confirmed in the commentary for the episode that Darla was in fact sent by the orthodox power that be . There are two factions of that powers that be orthodox and unorthodox kinda like in TVD you have the spirit witches and then you have the Travelers.
That's why I dislike the whole revelation in episode 17 Inside Out, as you described 42:29-42:37 it basically spits in the face of Cordelia's character because its telling us that these choices weren't to develop her character, but it was determined for her as a masterplan to get her possessed by the beastmaster. Every choice the characters made had been determined for them, I don't like that.
Season 4 is such a mixed bag. To me it contains the very best and very worst of the series as a whole.
It doesn't help that most of the bad choices this season seem to be born out of Joss' spite at Charisma getting pregnant (the Connor/Cordy 'relationship', the shitting on Cordy's growth in episode 17, and the conclusion of Cordy's character arc this season.)
It just feels like most of Cordy's presence on screen this season was an extended punishment by Joss against Charisma.
"Some great evil takes credit for bringing you back and you buy it?" -- Buffy, Amends (BtVS S2E10)
Simply because Whedon likes to put truth in the mouths of evil characters doesn't mean those characters never lie.
As the adage goes, "The best place to hide a lie is in a kernel of truth." Cordy made the choices she did based on who she was. Jasmine & her followers simply used their knowledge of her to their advantage. It may have been a bit of a gamble, but not really. Not when one considers the insights that higher beings have into people. The risk of Cordy making a selfish choice in the face of being able to do greater good was highly unlikely. Also, they would've had a contingency plan. At least, they should've. Jasmine was playing a game of chess against opponents who didn't know that they were playing. Nothing more. Skip was messing with their heads, destroying their morale. Who knows, maybe he even drank the Kool-Aid. ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
And the best speech of the series is the "the only thing that matters is what we do", and this story undercuts that to make everything some entity's higher plan. I think all of the characters, Cordie especially, deserved better.
But that's part of the show's message - if all is predetermined and nothing matters, nothing ever amounts to some grand reward, then what matters is each individual choice we make.
The meaning in Cordelia's choices and actions is the lives she saved right there and then - not some grand outcome that might or might not have been predetermined.
If nothing matters then all that matters is what we do.
@@MyFeuerFrey The show's message is that we create the meaning in our lives through our choices. In a predetermined universe choice is an illusion, which flies in the face of choices having any meaning or mattering at all.
While Whedon does like to put truths in the mouths of evil beings, it doesn't mean that everything that they say is true.
❤🧡💛💚💙💜
45:20 There is a fan theory that Darla was the First Evil, because the First didn’t like the competition with what’s about to emerge. But it remains just that: a fan theory. Not canon. It’s likely just Darla’s ghost.
Somebody mentioned that the DVD commentary confirmed it as Darla’s spirit really being sent to Connor by the Powers.
Sofies "the gentlest ever" made me think of "I've heard you sing" and I got sad.
You probably know by now but Jasmine is played by Gina Torres who played Zoë on Firefly.
Alyson Hannigan (Willow) and Alexis Denisof (Wesley) are married in real life, and have two kids.
Everyone from Firefly seemed to end in in BTVS and Angel. Here we see Gina Torres in Inside Out come to life in a bazaar ending, and Angel goes to his knees in awe of her, another rollercoaster of episodes we just know is going to follow. A very dark episode with Connor saving the Virgin girl from a vampire only for her to be given to Cordelia for human sacrifice, we are hoping she will escape, and even Darla appearing to Connor to beg him to not do it does not work. Cordelia still has just too much power over him. This of course is very disturbing as the girl mentions her mother, but the evil in Cordelia wins out. A brilliant scene with Wes doing his 'Hot Fuzz' bit with the gun finally dispatching Skip. A fairly decent episode, it was of course hard to match the 'Angelus Saga' but another one has now just become with this strange woman at the end. You are in for another wild ride with this new character.
The robber who shot the clerk in the ice cream shop was Dushku's brother.
9:47 yes they're still married after 21 years with two daughters.
7:16 this isn’t an original thought, but i love it so im leaving it here: fred and willow have more chemistry in 5 minutes than willow and kennedy every did😂
Funny enough so we are watching Liam the human . Angel is a mystical by product of a curse and prison for Angelus . Angel is Angeleus immortal prison a synthetic being . The only problem with the curse is why release a beast w happiness to harm innocent ppl 😅?! Also yes Angel and Buffy’s teams are in constant communication even if not seen on tv . I always wondered why Willow and Tara never thought to use another soul restoration spell instead of the Gypsy curse to remove the threat of Angeleus ? Obviously there are other soul restoration spells and the one used on Spike. Just side question throughout the years …😅?
Same. Spike’s soul is permanent. Willow became so powerful that she can rewrite reality. It would have been easy for her to amend or cast a new spell to make Angel’s soul permanent as well.
The writers just wrote themselves into a corner they could easily write out of. But chose not to, to keep artificial drama.
I prefer to think that Darla’s ghost was the First. She was done, at peace. No sense in stirring her bones, or dust in her case, like Willow did to Buffy.
I think people have mentioned that the DVD commentaries stated the Powers sent the real Darla.
@@arc7375 I know, but I still prefer to think of it my way.
It suddenly occurs to me that the whole "story with scope" explanation, which I've always seen as a massively unconvincing attempted retcon for everything that's messed up in this season's storytelling (I also hate how it makes my man Skip one of the bad guys), may actually be an enormous intended irony. The 'story with scope' says that everyone's choices meant nothing, that they have no free will. When Jasmine appears what does she do? Takes away everyone's free will!
I prefer Gunn's rebuttal. That the supposed plan reached this point was incredible luck (and horribly forced writing).
so funny thing i didnt keep up with angel when it aired so when faith came to sunnydale it really was a shock for me. i didnt know she was in angel til later. also she mentioned the jail incident and i just thought it was off screen
Exactly. IMO that was the best way of experiencing Faith's return!🤩🤎(Even if I'm sorry I've missed"5 by 5"and"Sanctuary"for so many years.💔💔)
With Angelus Saga over, we know have the Christ Like Figure of Jasmine in Shiny Happy People who is able to control all others to do her will for good. Of course this all seems too good to be true and it is. Fred eventually sees the other side of Jasmine but make the fatal error of telling Wesley who is still very much a disciple of Jasmine, and he of course tells Gunn. Fred has been to the Psych ward to see John who tried to kill Jasmine. We can see definite X-Files vibes again when John warns Fred on the way out 'Trust No One' one of the tags from The X-Files series. Angel takes the arrow for Jasmine, and Fred is now on the run. As Jasmine says let her go, we will have eyes everywhere tomorrow, and of course Jasmine gets on TV so all people are now being indoctrinated by her. Fred now has to plot a lonely course. A good episode full of intrigue and suspense we all hope Fred can convince the others, we shall see.
This show hints that Jasmine is a rogue Powers that be, I hate her but at least she's not completely worthless like the rest of the PTB
And she actually _genuinely intended_ to bring peace and love to Earth and vanquish evil.
I feel bad for Connor because he's basically treated like the Riley of the Angel show by the fandom. I think it's because no one cares to see things from his POV.
He's also like Dawn, was never meant to exist. Yet people seem to have such a tolerance for Dawn and all the whiny selfish behavior she did. I saw a few of her good moments, but she spent a lot of time being a bratty teen.
She was given false positive memories of growing up in a loving home. She was welcomed and loved by the Scoobies because of her being a part of Buffy
Connor was given NO such grace. He was born to two demons,
stolen from his father and the gang to be raised by a rightfully angry and bitter vampire hunter in a horrible demon dimension.
Holtz didn't raise him with nurturing love, but treated him more like a bloodhound in training, to make him a killer.
He was brainwashed to hate Angel. He knew nothing of interacting with people so he had no social skills. He used what he knew from how he was taught. He was trained to be "The Destroyer".
Whenever he expresses his feeling people treat him like he's not allowed to have any. ...Like he's not a lost and confused teen.
People say yuck and gross about him and Cordelia as if HE should feel horrible about it because of what they knew about his life, that he doesn't.
He doesn't remember Cordelia holding him as a baby. So why should he feel weirded out about caring for her?
The way people root for him to be beat up or hurt or always saying he shouldn't say this or that. His feelings of frustration are valid because he doesn't know how to walk through the human world or how to trust his instincts with how to deal with them when he has been manipulated since birth.
Now Cordelia is messing with his insecurities about not being a good father, knowing he has daddy issues (from both Angel and Holtz). The moment he starts wondering if he should be asking questions is when she pulls his chain a little more to keep him controlled.
Connor is the victim. He's met Angelus so now he has an understanding of how he's different than Angel. That may be when he started asking what's really happening.
I loved Willow showing up. I believe her and Alexis married the next year.
I just think his character deserved better, like Riley and given more understanding like Dawn.
I would’ve loved an epilogue episode after the finale of Buffy and Angel, where the two meet up, just to spend a day together. Just hanging out. And I’d have _loved_ Dawn and Connor to have struck up a sincere friendship with one another.
I know I use a different watch order than most reactors but I'm really surprised you didn't go back to Buffy after Angel S04E15.
Is she evil? The answer is: *No.*
It’s one of those very morally grey areas where she used foul acts and evil methods to procure sincerely virtuous designs. But will nevertheless continue performing small acts of isolated evil actions to maintain general peace and goodness.
She’s just a Power from the Powers that Be that got angry and inpatient with the inaction the forces of Good were taking to fight the forces of Evil. And then she developed an ego.
The Jasmine storyline is a spin on Christian interpretations of the end of the world, including the coming of a great Beast, as well as an Antichrist figure who falsely gains the attention and admiration of the people who then follow blindly.
The actor that plays Conner is good I loved him from mad men but Angel did him dirty. And honestly I don’t even hate his character like most people because maybe I’m closer to his age idk I understand some of his actions he was groomed by “Cordelia”. But the way they write him it’s great. If I’m gonna be honest I don’t really like anyone in season 4 everyone gets on my nerves lol
07:07 - 07:08 *ME TOO!!!!* 💗❤ And this would be a better ship than any canonical one Winny ever had!🙄 07:09 - 07:12 So _what?_ Willow was too till ep 4x11!!😤
*Connor in a Nutshell:* 11:31 - 11:34
0:51:46 *JASMINE!!!!!!* 🤩 Finally she's here!!!!!!💙🙇♂
How on earth did holts feed Conner in cortoth. What food would you feed a baby in cortoth? 😅
It's hilarious that the story is completely pulled out of the writers' a$$ scrambling to make it make sense and then they pretend this was Jasmine's plan from the beginning
i was both confused and incredulous watching this part of the season. the biggest, least convincing retcon i’ve ever seen.
Skip didn't mean that they made all those things happen. Only that they counted on them happening because, as we know, the powers have the ability to read the future. So they chose Cordy based on what was likely to happen, not that they made it happen. As Skip said, it all depended on a bunch of certain events to occur as they did.
❤🧡💛💚💙💜
Can you imagine buffy having to be Connors stepmother 😂.
Well, she took to being Dawn's big sis pretty well?
I think Orpheus was a great episode within the Angelus Saga during the show. Willow is now called upon to try and re-soul Angel. With Faith and Angelus somewhat comatose here, they share the same dreams similar to previous episodes of BTVS with Buffy and Angel. The Cordelia/Willow exchange is interesting as Cordelia knows of Willow's power and a great scene when the knife is thrown hitting the door. Super surreal dream scene in the Diner with Angelus/Faith and Angel back in the 1970s. Angel puts Mandy on the jukebox, a throwback to when he first sang in Lorne's club. A great scene when Willow is sent flying across the foyer by Cordelia but responds with powerful magic herself. Again terrific dream scene in the alleyway ( this show loves alleyways ) where we see Angelus and Faith see Angel scavenging for rats. Willow's power eventually breaks the glass, and we revert again to the alleyway scene. Cordelia is able to manipulate Connor as we tend to forget he is still very young, and not as experienced as Cordelia, so is easily led by a kind of blind teenage love crush which she is able to use against him. The real battle of course is in the subconscious mind of Angelus and Faith where Angel is begging Faith to wake up. The awakening scene is brilliant, we know Cordelia told Connor to kill Angelus, who we now know has been restored to Angel. Faith grabbing the stake as Connor is about to kill Angel and whooping Connor's butt, is one of the most satisfying scenes ever. Some light relief and the end where everyone is saying goodbyes, but then we see Cordelia come down the stairs showing her pregnancy bump. All in all a brilliant episode with complex plot and writing reaching new levels.
I just realized how gross and bitter Whedon was to use Charisma's real pregnant bully to emphasize the birth of a possible enemy/foe.
I mean the setup was already there for her to be possessed by the big evil this season, but her being pregnant meant she couldn't record as much, right? So he switched it to impregnating her? Was there another way that would make more sense? Not that I'm justifying how she was treated, I'm just not sure he was going for what you are saying.
@@Heldemon Or the writers and producers moved heaven and earth to keep CC on the show and pay her hundreds of thousands of dollars to do so because she didn't let anyone know she was pregnant?
Don't talk rot, CC herself was supposed to be the villain but her not telling anyone she was pregnant meant the writers/producers had to invent the pregnancy storyline on the fly, she has nothing to complain about and everyone else who had to work around her deserve our sympathy.
No, AH and AD don't get married until season 5 of Angel. For me Orpheus is the single best ep of Angel ever, I mean Willow and Faith as guest stars, what's not to love? Yes, much of the rest seems disjointed and illogical but because CC didn't tell anyone about her pregnancy the writers/producers had to make it up as they went along and retroactively try to make things fit.
You are not gonna watch s5 before ending buffy right?
Read the video description. Like most reactors, she's way ahead on Patreon compared to TH-cam. In fact, she's already done with both series.
Funny enough so we are watching Liam the human . Angel is a mystical by product of a curse and prison for Angelus . Angel is Angeleus immortal prison a synthetic being . The only problem with the curse is why release a beast w happiness to harm innocent ppl 😅?! Also yes Angel and Buffy’s teams are in constant communication even if not seen on tv . I always wondered why Willow and Tara never thought to use another soul restoration spell instead of the Gypsy curse to remove the threat of Angeleus ? Obviously there are other soul restoration spells and the one used on Spike. Just side question throughout the years …😅?
In fairy tales there is often mundane ways to break curses, an inherent weakness in spells. (Ie. true love’s kiss in “Sleeping Beauty” or “Beauty and the Beast”.) The Angel curse is just a twisted play on that trope. 😢
So If you need to head canon it ; the constraints of the curse is a cost to do that spell/curse (and Spike’s probably had a different cost; presumably one that good characters might be abhorrent to do 🤷🏻.)