Amazing middle distance horse the pick up he possesed at the end of 1m 4f was phenomenal truly one of racing greats we still talk about so many years later
I wrote a letter hailing Dancing Brave for a Racing Post competition called 'Horse of the decade'. My letter won and was also published in Racing Post annual. A day out with Channel 4, a tour of Kempton from Brough Scott, chatting to a drunk David Elsworth after Dessie won the Racing Post chase. Dancing Brave. Just the best horse I've ever seen and, obviously, my favourite racehorse.
brough scott amature jockey paid to get get in to racing and criticises grevilles ride on dancing brave he made the horse aske guy harwood or michel stout
Frankel did not win over 1 and a half miles EVER ! I don't even think he ever entered a race of that distance ? Dancing Brave's final furlong time when he won the Arc in 1986,was quicker than Frankel's 1st furlong when he romped the Guineas. That's how brilliant Dancing Brave was !
My best days racing in 50 years since i first went on course was at Longchamp for the Arc. All the french fans were up on.their feet when Bering took up the running at the distance but when DB came wide on the outside it was the Brits up and shouting home a great, great, winner.
Dancing Brave remains the finest racehorse I've watched in over 30 years . His acceleration was an incredible sight and could be deployed from 7f to 12f to devastating effect. All horses go fast past trees but he went fast past champions , the Arc he won tells you all about that .
@@mallafets That's exactly right. The majority if what he beat in the Arc were passed their best and the rest didn't progress. Manila proved the real quality of Dancing Brave.
If you're looking for pure versatility in a racehorse, look no further than the two equine legends Nijinsky and Dancing Brave . In Nijinsky, Triple Crown champion extraordinaire. In Dancing Brave, guineas, eclipse,,king george and Arc supremo These freaks of nature, for that is surely what they are, come about as often as a blue moon in a month of Sundays. For the record, history will record Nijinsky never won the Arc and Dancing Brave never won the Derby. However, the fact that both horses never raced as four year olds doesn't detract from their brilliant careers at three. I still can't choose between these two, but know this, both Sea bird and Frankel would have been hard pressed to best either in my humble opinion.
Nijinsky is arguably the greatest horse of all time. 11 wins on the trot (inc 6 group 1s) the triple crown, which has never been done since and one of the unluckiest losers of the Arc. Piggott said at his best he was virtually unbeatable.
Worked for guy Harwood at the time. 82 to 89, best days of my life, was lucky enough to have ridden him as a yearling. And no surprise he was as good as he was. 👍👍
Over a mile and slow early pace here..... so no one would then have beaten Dancing Brave. Green Desert was a top sprinter and left the rest of the field for dead, but he couldn't live with Dancing Brave.
Very Good points made about the Brave & Frankel..I Can Assure you that the Calibre of Opponent that Dancing get Brave Destroyed Consistently was Way Superior to ones Frankel beat...When you consider Dancing Brave was a May foal & didn't race at 4 like Frankel then it's even More Astounding..Dancing Brave won his Guineas as a 2 & a half year old Horse..I think El Gran Senor, Zilzal & Zafonic were Great milers & not too far behind him..But as a middle Distance Horse he is the Best I've seen by Far..Khalid Abdulah should be Ashamed of himself to say Frankel was better..I'm Ashamed of Abdulah...What is he thinking ? Dancing Brave also polled ALL 27 Votes for Horse of the Year..Hardly Ever achieved..And there were Champions in Abundance in that year from 84 & 85 as well as 86...
Beat the best Arc field ever and the way he quickened past them in the last furlong was a sight. 10.8 secs for the last furlong tells you this animal was special.
Because they completely rejigged the ratings to push DB down from his existing rating to accomodate Frankel@@darrensmith4279. Basically rewrote history
My second post after the first 7 years ago. Memory may fade but I don’t forget importance. Walter Swinburn (bless) said he’d never gone quicker out of the dip on Green Desert, couldn’t believe that a horse would be upsides let alone beat him easily.
The best I've ever seen. Brilliant at a mile. 1 mile 2 or 1 mile 4. Could even have won over 6 and been champion sprinter. Frankel comes a very close second.
The 3 most impressive performances I've ever seen were Dancing Brave winning the Arc De Triomphe, Frankel winning the 2000 Guineas and Arazi winning at the Breeders Cup Juvenile. These were performances that really made me sit back and utter those words....WOW!
I was talking in my lifetime mate.....I wasn't old enough to appreciate that Derby. It was also hard to judge the quality of that field, especially when you know what Shergar did in the Derby.
@JodyForbes I think the horse was overdone by then. He was on the go all season, from early May and his performance in that Arc was colossal. Whilst I was disappointed to see him finish so tamely in the Breeders Cup, it wasn't that much of a surprise. Manilla also proved himself to be a great horse in his own right.
This is about as different as you can get from Frankel's guineas, but almost as impressive. They went a slow pace in 1986, which set the race up for the crack sprinter Green Desert... and then Dancing Brave just blew him away in a couple of strides.
@bigttim1 agreed,it was a slow pace which allowed Green Desert ( a champion sprinter in his own right this year) to produce speed close to sprinting speed at the end here, but was no match 4 DB. DB could of easily been champion sprinter in 86 if his connections wanted that, but he went on to be champion at a mile and middle distance champion in 86.
Absolutely correct, he was a champion at any distance, ok he lost a couple of races that shouldn’t have happened, the derby was the jockeys fault, but just look where he came from to lose by a neck and he should never have go to the Breeders cup. If Frankel had carried on racing against top class opposition he would have lost too, no doubt Frankel was a quality horse but you would have to question some of his opponents
Frankel has won every race he's been in...but look at what he's beaten. Like I posted on the '86 Arc, Frankel never ran in a field even approaching that class.
TheDogonebad it’s pointless saying look what Frankel beat. Notwithstanding that he beat countless G1 winners, look more at the ease he beat them by. Thats far more telling.
@ThefightingCelt No doubt Frankel is a world class super horse, but DB, moved up distances and still had a supreme turn of speed at the end of the eclipse (1m2f), the King George (1M4F) and the Arc(1M4F) in a record breaking time. Frankel could not put in the same class as the greatest race horse ever as he never raced beyond a mile. Had his trainer or owner thought him good enough, they would have moved him up. He is a legend none the less. DB is the best there ever was(in my opinion)
Frankel did race beyond a mile at was two from two at 1m2f on goof to firm ground the first time and on soft the second, although I am not sure if you made your post prior to that happening, but I have no doubt that he would have got 1m4f too. Distance, ground or running style did not matter to him.
No worries fowlergod09, and judging by your name a fellow red. Rodgers building well for next year. I am a huge fan of both these great horses. Dancing brave was always seen at his best off a strong pace, didn't always get it, but did in the Arc. Frankel had a unreal cruising speed, to win his last race (champion stakes) after being left behind at the start, racing on ground he didn't like and go past the previous years winner they way he did was unreal.
Cheers duhru. It is just ludicrous for fightingcelt to argue for Frankl by saying ' Prince kahlid abdullah says so', so it must be true, just because he owned both horses in question. It is a bit like asking roman abromovich who is the best player at Chelsea?, he would know more about bog snorkling, just like abdullah(money their only knowledge) Frankl was great up to mile,would struggle above that. DB started at 6F, ended up at 1M4F. fastest furlong ever in the Derby, course record in the Arc.
I won £450 as a school boy on it. Backed it it at 7/2 when won the arc against bering acatanango triptech under eddery .broke my heart in breeders cup school boy memories
The best horse I actually saw live was nashwan. I saw him win the guinneas, derby, eclipse and king George. Unfortunately I only saw DB on TV but I did see him at Dalham Hall Stud once.
Last few strides Mick puts his whip down, it wasn’t a head bobbing driving finish, but I’d say it was only 1/2 furlong from the post when the matter was decisively settled. Rip van winkle rallied just like Shardari did against dancing brave in the King George, those weren’t easy wins but there were no hard luck stories and it was conclusive
If you look at the ratings of the horses DB beat in comparison with those Frankel took on the only conclusion is that DB was the better horse...the Arc in 86 in terms of who he beat and the manner in which he did it is for my money the best race ever...
Only Zaphonic would of got within half a length of Frankel over a mile. The Brave is my favourite horse of all time though. Those saying, ah but he was useless in the breeders cup need to understand, that race was run at Santa Anita in Calafornia. I think only one European horse has ever won at that track. Is a really tight oval
Think when you think of all time great horses you have to remember he beat a real class field in the 2000 over a mile and was the best at much further.
But l can. No doubting Frankel is a great horse, but the Brave was racing against much better than Frankel ever faced. I doubt Frankel would have got away from that '86 field, and besides, he never raced over 12f so nobody can state for a fact that he would have even stayed the distance.
There is plenty of evidence to suggest Frankel would have stayed 12f, just as there was that he would stay 10f when people were previously calling him only a miler.
fowlergod09, read my post again. I do not say Dancing brave holds the course record in the Arc. Talking about his achievements, i said 'course record in the Arc',. Frankel is a great and up there with DB, i was only pointing out that DB done it from 6f to 1m4f, and i believe he could have won the St Leger at 1m6f. I also believe Frankel could have stepped up to 1M 4F and went for the Arc, but we will never know, both had a phenomenal engines. The braves turn of foot was something else.
@@KryptonitetoallBS I think it means that Dancing Brave at the time won the Arc on the course in a record time for the Arc race alone, although his time might not be the overall course record at that distance, which might be held by another horse in another race that is not the Arc, but is also run over the same course and distance. For example, Dancing Brave won the Arc at Longchamp in a then record time of 2:27.70 for the Arc, although the following two years it was beaten by both Trempolino and Tony Bin, but the Grand Prix de Paris and Prix Vermeille are other Group 1 races run over the same course and distance. And the Prix Foy and Prix Niel are Group 2 Arc trial races run over the same course and distance, the Prix du Conseil de Paris is another Group 2 run after the Arc that is also over the same course and distance, with the Group 2 Prix d'Hédouville and the Listed Prix Lord Seymour both also being races over the same course and distance. So presumably another horse or horses ran a faster time in one of those non-Arc races than Dancing Brave did in the Arc.
doorway888 True. But he did flop big time over in America.. I think it is right to say he was only as good as Sea The Stars.. but Frankel is just another league altogether, despite being untested over 12 furlongs.. He's the pound for pound greatest - would dancing brave beat Frankel in any of Frankel greatest victories? Frankel would be odds on against Dancing Brave - but I'm not taking anything away from DB, he is one of the best to do it, no doubt.
Anyone who says that frankel was better than dancing brave are deluded, DB took on far superior horses at different distances and destroyed them, unlike frankel more or less same horses n same distance all the time, frankel was a good horse but nowhere near the brave, don’t forget dancing brave was the highest rated racehorse for years and years then suddenly they decided to change the ratings, absolute shit, dancing brave was the greatest,
Gary Pollard is that right, name 1 horse that frankel beat over 12 furlongs,,, none because he couldn’t stay that distance, dancing brave beat everything from 7f to 12 furlongs, that tells you itself dancing brave was a better horse,, your the deluded 1
@@thebay77sanfrancisco72 100% certain Dancing Brave was a more superior and versatile horse he won at different distances his Arc de Triomphe win was one of the best ever seen the race was full of top class horses. don't get me wrong Frankel was a very good horse one of the best milers ever seen but he never beat anything in the same category as Dancing Brave and never raced outside England those Timeform ratings are ridiculous Frankel's unbeaten record was protected and i believe that is why they would not race him abroad or at different distances
@@thebay77sanfrancisco72 If Dancing Brave beat everything from 7f to 12 f, how then did he run unplaced in the Breeders Cup Turf at 12f? He can't have beat everything then? Deluded is you. DB was bounced after gun running it in the USA. Unless of course we are going down the well worn UK excuse path?
Dancing brave is my favourite racehorse but having seen sea the stars remain unbeaten at 3 and never being truly extended I believe him to be the best horse.
Sea The Stars was extended in the Eclipse and there is an argument to say Rip Van Winkle might have run him closer and maybe even beaten him when he was upsides and then shied back, having been struck ion the head by Mick Kinane's whip. And just by the very fact that Kinane needed to use his whip tells its own story.
@@seanscanlon9067Sea the stars was travelling so easily he found himself in front fully 2 furlongs from the finish, Rio van winkle began his challenge then and the 2 were far apart, as we get into the business end of the race it’s clear rip van winkle drifts in towards sea the stars as he gets upside. Mick was fully entitled to use his whip and he pulls out extra winning a shade cosily a 100 yards from the finish pushing him out with hands and heals, accelerating again to win by 1 1/2 length. With no stewards enquiry and Mick not wanting the 2 horses to make contact it makes sense to use the whip in the left hand. Sea the stars hardest fought race was the Beresford stakes at two, beaten in his maiden race. Balance and temperament and never doing more than what was needed to win meant he could go through the season unbeaten beating the best horses Coolmore had around
@@seanscanlon9067 Piggott used the whip on Nijinsky in the Derby, it doesn’t mean he was extended to do so, just keeping him up to his work and asking for a little more, which he found. Even the great dancing brave was shown the whip a few times.
@@mikerainham Sea The Stars as you say hit the front at the two pole but Rip Van Winkle tracked him all the way and was going just as well, if not better, having been around a length and a half down at the two pole and ranged almost upsides with half a furlong to go. Kinane hits STS 6 to 7 times which does nor suggest he was unextended to me and even Jim McGrath in commentary said: "....Rip Van Winkle in his slipstream". ".....he's gone for the whip, Kinane" "....here's Rip Van Winkle though, coming up on the outside". You then see RVW's head turn away after being struck by Kinane's whip and he goes from ranging almost upsides to dropping back to a length and a half down, before closing again very late on to be beaten a length. It was an accidental strike of the whip from Kinane and he did nothing wrong deliberately, and so there was no need for a stewards enquiry, yet the race would have been much closer but for that whip incident and STS clearly did not win unextended. In fact, he did not even win the Juddmonte unextended either, for that matter.
@@mikerainham Another horse ranged upsides Nijinksky around a furlong out in the Derby and horses tend to run down the camber at Epsom, so Piggott gave Nijinksky one slap behind to hold his racing line, one behind to chase down the leader and then one down the shoulder as he pulled his whip into the forehand position and then went hands and heels to the line after passing the leader. Nijinksky also won the Derby by about three lengths too and as far Dancing Brave goes, yes he was hit with the whip in the Derby when trying to make up ten lengths at the end of the race and did a ten second or so final furlong.
Frankel did beat some very good horses like st Nicholas Abbey Canford cliffs Excelabration can't say he didn't beat much possible Brave win in the Arc was full of great horses Shadari Sharastani who was fortunate too win the Derby also beat the great Triptych
Frankel may have beaten dancing brave in the guinneas but dancing brave won over 8, 10, 12 furlongs. I'm not sure what to make of frankel just yet? He may prove himself to be a great miler
Frankel would have blown most Guineas winner to smithereens, let alone Dancing Bave. Prince Kahalid Abdullah, the owner of Frankel and Dancing Brave said quite recently in an interview with the BBC that of all the race horses he has ever owned, Frankel is without doubt the best of all.
I backed El Gran Senor in the Dewhurst , Guineas and in the English & Irish Derby . He was a great horse who won a very competitive Guineas - but he only ever ran one race at a mile and that was it . He was not an out and out miler like Frankel or Brigadier Gerard .
He beat the Australian Guineas winner by 19 lgts. He beat the Marois and QE2 winner by 11 lgts He beat Cirrus des Aigles on Cirrus preferred going an distance. His form is rock solid. Of course the Arc field in '86 was very deep but frankel's form is rock solid mate.
Think Frankel would win over a mile , 1m 2f would be very close but Dancing Brave would win over 1m 4f He was my all time great until Frankel came along , but as an earlier poster said Frankel is the present . Will never forget the commentator in the Arc "and here comes Dancing Brave" Fantastic horse
Guineas 2 years previous 84 was a lot stronger race! The brave was world class one of the best ever no doubt! think el gran senor guineas victory would have been at least the Equal of dancing brave,zafonic, and Frankel on guineas performance alone. Dancing brave's arc win was spectacular and frankel's judmonte win best ever seen? Frankel should have skipped champions stakes and went 4 the arc for grand finale would have bashed up solemia and orfevre for sure all personal opinion though!
Pat Eddery said the Brave was a Rolls Royce. . That from the master says it all.. Oh if he had been on it in the Derby it would have won.. Gave Sharastani and 3 other Derby winners and the Great filly Tryptych 6l of a start and flew by them.. Probably the greatest ARC field ever..
@Stephen Small Now that would have been a race.. But think Swinburn commented that the Brave was the best he had seen. Said Eddery laughed at him when he flew passed him in the King George. ..
well frankel as now won at 1 mile 2 and will win at 1 mile 4, without doubt the best horse ever, dancing brave was great but frankel is the best, unbeaten and you cant argue with never got beat.
He would have gone down as one of the all time greats.but for one thing .starkey.even ray charles and stevie wonder could of ridden it better than him in the derby.terrible ride
oh Starkry oh Starkey god rest your soul but you had no idea how to ride this horse. Even in the guineas you do not arrogantly look behind for the others
Clare Balding to Prince Khalid Abdullah : " Is he ( Frankel ) the best you have ever owned ? " Khalid Abdullah: " Yes " Clare Balding: " Better than Dancing Brave ? Khalid Abdullah : "Oh yes, I think so ! "
No it wasn't : the question was asked after Frankel had won a race and was based on racing ability alone . Breeding never entered the equation at that stage .@@wheretheresawilltheresaway7752
@@ThefightingCelt the question was asked and abdullah answered it because he knew his answer would effect its price when it came to breeding what abdullah done to the brave selling him to japan was a disgrace
He didn't win one but in my honest view would comfortably have beaten DB if they met over 12. DB barely stayed it as you see in the KG. I love Dancing Brave. Read my comments on his dDerby run for proof, but Frankel was several pounds superior as a racehorse. Most expert opinion agrees with this.
It's only sentiment that leads anyone to think that Dancing Brave was better than Frankel . The fact is that Frankel destroyed most of the opposition mid race . He had a huge stride and could maintain his top speed over a sustained distance . Dancing Brave had a good turn of foot but as Eddery said , he had to get into stride a fair bit out before he could utilise . When both Khalid Abdulla and Sir Teddy Grimthorpe say , unequivocally , that Frankel was better than Dancing Brave , then you have to take notice . Dancing Brave was retired after his dismal Breeders' Cup run , so therefore we did not get to see how good a 4 year old he might have been , but we do know that Frankel got even better win his third season .
Nope, Frankel didn’t beat the type of opposition that Dancing Brave did. And Frankel may not have stayed the 14f as well as a true stayer. But that’s why he never ran it. He was built for speed and had stamina too but never needed to show it as he was always clear with a furlong to go (apart from final race). However, anyone who believe Frankel would have been beat by any horse that ever lived, over the mile trip. Your smoking some hard rocks. He was the best miler I ever seen.. Hands down, there’s not been another like him and I doubt we’ll see another quite as good (over a mile).
Worked for guy Harwood at the time. 82 to 89, best days of my life, was lucky enough to have ridden him as a yearling. And no surprise he was as good as he was. 👍👍
Very Good points made about the Brave & Frankel..I Can Assure you that the Calibre of Opponent that Dancing get Brave Destroyed Consistently was Way Superior to ones Frankel beat...When you consider Dancing Brave was a May foal & didn't race at 4 like Frankel then it's even More Astounding..Dancing Brave won his Guineas as a 2 & a half year old Horse..I think El Gran Senor, Zilzal & Zafonic were Great milers & not too far behind him..But as a middle Distance Horse he is the Best I've seen by Far..Khalid Abdulah should be Ashamed of himself to say Frankel was better..I'm Ashamed of Abdulah...What is he thinking ? Dancing Brave also polled ALL 27 Votes for Horse of the Year..Hardly Ever achieved..And there were Champions in Abundance in that year from 84 & 85 as well as 86...
By the time Khalid Abdullah said that, DB was long since dead and there was no money to be made from stud fees. Best in my lifetime was Dancing Brave too.
Worked for guy Harwood at the time. 82 to 89, best days of my life, was lucky enough to have ridden him as a yearling. And no surprise he was as good as he was. 👍👍
Worked for guy Harwood at the time. 82 to 89, best days of my life, was lucky enough to have ridden him as a yearling. And no surprise he was as good as he was. 👍👍
@@issyjas3309 yes even as a youngster he gave you an amazing feel. He would just carry you up the gallops with ease. And any baby that gave you a feel like that had ti be exciting
Worked for guy Harwood at the time. 82 to 89, best days of my life, was lucky enough to have ridden him as a yearling. And no surprise he was as good as he was. 👍👍
Amazing middle distance horse the pick up he possesed at the end of 1m 4f was phenomenal truly one of racing greats we still talk about so many years later
I wrote a letter hailing Dancing Brave for a Racing Post competition called 'Horse of the decade'. My letter won and was also published in Racing Post annual. A day out with Channel 4, a tour of Kempton from Brough Scott, chatting to a drunk David Elsworth after Dessie won the Racing Post chase. Dancing Brave. Just the best horse I've ever seen and, obviously, my favourite racehorse.
Martin Jackman what a cool story 😎
brough scott amature jockey paid to get get in to racing and criticises grevilles ride on dancing brave he made the horse aske guy harwood or michel stout
@Stephen Small no he wernt
@Stephen Small over 1m be a great race but DB would pick him off, 10 or 12f only one winner DB.
Still the best ever. If he'd have won that derby which he should have done he would be regarded today by far as the best ever.
Frankel brilliant but in my opinion dancing brave the best horse ever
Frankel did not win over 1 and a half miles EVER ! I don't even think he ever entered a race of that distance ? Dancing Brave's final furlong time when he won the Arc in 1986,was quicker than Frankel's 1st furlong when he romped the Guineas. That's how brilliant Dancing Brave was !
Just wow...!!Left a subsequent champion sprinter toiling in his wake..👏👏👏
My best days racing in 50 years since i first went on course was at Longchamp for the Arc. All the french fans were up on.their feet when Bering took up the running at the distance but when DB came wide on the outside it was the Brits up and shouting home a great, great, winner.
Dancing Brave remains the finest racehorse I've watched in over 30 years .
His acceleration was an incredible sight and could be deployed from 7f to 12f to devastating effect.
All horses go fast past trees but he went fast past champions , the Arc he won tells you all about that .
Agreed, the Arc de triomphe he won was the best ever assembled , 10 class animals and swept passed them as if they were lamp posts
Loved him but over the mile I'd still go Zafonic
The sectionals prove he did not.
Dancing brave against the stars- thats a dream race
@@mallafets
That's exactly right. The majority if what he beat in the Arc were passed their best and the rest didn't progress.
Manila proved the real quality of Dancing Brave.
The greatest....
If you're looking for pure versatility in a racehorse, look no further than the two equine legends Nijinsky and Dancing Brave .
In Nijinsky, Triple Crown champion extraordinaire. In Dancing Brave, guineas, eclipse,,king george and Arc supremo
These freaks of nature, for that is surely what they are, come about as often as a blue moon in a month of Sundays.
For the record, history will record Nijinsky never won the Arc and Dancing Brave never won the Derby. However, the fact that both horses never raced as four year olds doesn't detract from their brilliant careers at three.
I still can't choose between these two, but know this, both Sea bird and Frankel would have been hard pressed to best either in my humble opinion.
Well said, Sir, but you should remember the remarkable Sea The Stars back in 2009.
Nijinsky is arguably the greatest horse of all time. 11 wins on the trot (inc 6 group 1s) the triple crown, which has never been done since and one of the unluckiest losers of the Arc. Piggott said at his best he was virtually unbeatable.
Absolute tank this horse. One of the greatest...
best jockey ive ever seen
swinburn said he had never straveld so fast going into the dip on green desert and then all of a sudden something swept by him
Bloody hell
@Stephen Small he would have passed el gran senor like he was standing still zafonic would have gave him a race but only to the furlong pole
Dancing Brave - what a win as Green Desert was no slouch
Just brilliant watching these races of dancing brave still gives me goosebumps what a horse,
Worked for guy Harwood at the time. 82 to 89, best days of my life, was lucky enough to have ridden him as a yearling. And no surprise he was as good as he was. 👍👍
The legendary Dancing Brave!!!
If only he had won the Derby .100% jockeys fault that day.
The best IV seen. Its no good comparing him to Sea The Stars or any other horse. We all have our opinions - and thats mine Amigos.....
Over a mile and slow early pace here..... so no one would then have beaten Dancing Brave. Green Desert was a top sprinter and left the rest of the field for dead, but he couldn't live with Dancing Brave.
Very Good points made about the Brave & Frankel..I Can Assure you that the Calibre of Opponent that Dancing get Brave Destroyed Consistently was Way Superior to ones Frankel beat...When you consider Dancing Brave was a May foal & didn't race at 4 like Frankel then it's even More Astounding..Dancing Brave won his Guineas as a 2 & a half year old Horse..I think El Gran Senor, Zilzal & Zafonic were Great milers & not too far behind him..But as a middle Distance Horse he is the Best I've seen by Far..Khalid Abdulah should be Ashamed of himself to say Frankel was better..I'm Ashamed of Abdulah...What is he thinking ? Dancing Brave also polled ALL 27 Votes for Horse of the Year..Hardly Ever achieved..And there were Champions in Abundance in that year from 84 & 85 as well as 86...
Beat the best Arc field ever and the way he quickened past them in the last furlong was a sight. 10.8 secs for the last furlong tells you this animal was special.
So how is frankel rated higher
Because they completely rejigged the ratings to push DB down from his existing rating to accomodate Frankel@@darrensmith4279. Basically rewrote history
My second post after the first 7 years ago. Memory may fade but I don’t forget importance.
Walter Swinburn (bless) said he’d never gone quicker out of the dip on Green Desert, couldn’t believe that a horse would be upsides let alone beat him easily.
Starkey looking around before the line, truly remarkable speed. DB could of been champion sprinter in 86.
YEP I strongly agree I think both both dancing brave and frankel would have been untouchable in sprints.
The best I've ever seen. Brilliant at a mile. 1 mile 2 or 1 mile 4. Could even have won over 6 and been champion sprinter. Frankel comes a very close second.
The 3 most impressive performances I've ever seen were Dancing Brave winning the Arc De Triomphe, Frankel winning the 2000 Guineas and Arazi winning at the Breeders Cup Juvenile. These were performances that really made me sit back and utter those words....WOW!
I would say Seabird winning the 65 derby was the most impressive. He passed the others like they were standing still
I was talking in my lifetime mate.....I wasn't old enough to appreciate that Derby. It was also hard to judge the quality of that field, especially when you know what Shergar did in the Derby.
Frankel winning the 2,000 guineas was not even Frankel's most impressive performance.
And I would add Shergar and Generous winning the Derby.
@@seanbryant9371
Did you appreciate Dancing Brave running unplaced behind Manila as well? After all it's all relative....
@JodyForbes I think the horse was overdone by then. He was on the go all season, from early May and his performance in that Arc was colossal. Whilst I was disappointed to see him finish so tamely in the Breeders Cup, it wasn't that much of a surprise. Manilla also proved himself to be a great horse in his own right.
This is about as different as you can get from Frankel's guineas, but almost as impressive. They went a slow pace in 1986, which set the race up for the crack sprinter Green Desert... and then Dancing Brave just blew him away in a couple of strides.
@bigttim1 agreed,it was a slow pace which allowed Green Desert ( a champion sprinter in his own right this year) to produce speed close to sprinting speed at the end here, but was no match 4 DB. DB could of easily been champion sprinter in 86 if his connections wanted that, but he went on to be champion at a mile and middle distance champion in 86.
Absolutely correct, he was a champion at any distance, ok he lost a couple of races that shouldn’t have happened, the derby was the jockeys fault, but just look where he came from to lose by a neck and he should never have go to the Breeders cup. If Frankel had carried on racing against top class opposition he would have lost too, no doubt Frankel was a quality horse but you would have to question some of his opponents
Great Ride By Greville There And Bit Of Cheek Looking Round At The Finish!
I love the fact the legend Dancing Brave had ANZ blood running through his veins from his Great Grandfather the mighty Pago Pago.
Frankel has won every race he's been in...but look at what he's beaten. Like I posted on the '86 Arc, Frankel never ran in a field even approaching that class.
TheDogonebad it’s pointless saying look what Frankel beat. Notwithstanding that he beat countless G1 winners, look more at the ease he beat them by. Thats far more telling.
@Gary Pollard Dancing Brave and FOUR derby winners for a start!
That was the best ARC field.
4 derby winners and the the champion filly Tryptich.
Your spot on..
Frankel beat plenty of Gr1 horses from all over the world.
@ThefightingCelt No doubt Frankel is a world class super horse, but DB, moved up distances and still had a supreme turn of speed at the end of the eclipse (1m2f), the King George (1M4F) and the Arc(1M4F) in a record breaking time. Frankel could not put in the same class as the greatest race horse ever as he never raced beyond a mile. Had his trainer or owner thought him good enough, they would have moved him up. He is a legend none the less. DB is the best there ever was(in my opinion)
Frankel did race beyond a mile at was two from two at 1m2f on goof to firm ground the first time and on soft the second, although I am not sure if you made your post prior to that happening, but I have no doubt that he would have got 1m4f too.
Distance, ground or running style did not matter to him.
Best horse l ever seen was sea the stars supreme horse had it all and l seen frankel live running in Ascot 😊
what about El Gran senor over this trip? one of the best guineas winners ever
Rory Kennedy
He and the Brigadier were the best two Guineas winners.
El Gran Senors Guineas and Dancing Braves Arc are the best two races I've seen in my lifetime.
No worries fowlergod09, and judging by your name a fellow red. Rodgers building well for next year. I am a huge fan of both these great horses. Dancing brave was always seen at his best off a strong pace, didn't always get it, but did in the Arc. Frankel had a unreal cruising speed, to win his last race (champion stakes) after being left behind at the start, racing on ground he didn't like and go past the previous years winner they way he did was unreal.
For me loved Dancing brave Nashwan and many others but ZAFONIC FOR MILE!!
People forget what a good horse Green Deasert was a brilliant stallion also Tate Gallery high class Dancing Brave hammered them
Cheers duhru. It is just ludicrous for fightingcelt to argue for Frankl by saying ' Prince kahlid abdullah says so', so it must be true, just because he owned both horses in question. It is a bit like asking roman abromovich who is the best player at Chelsea?, he would know more about bog snorkling, just like abdullah(money their only knowledge) Frankl was great up to mile,would struggle above that. DB started at 6F, ended up at 1M4F. fastest furlong ever in the Derby, course record in the Arc.
@johngilly28 DB penultimate furlong in the Derby was 10.2 seconds, are you saying that SB was faster than that.
I won £450 as a school boy on it. Backed it it at 7/2 when won the arc against bering acatanango triptech under eddery .broke my heart in breeders cup school boy memories
Jockey having a quick look across as he destroys the field
The best horse I actually saw live was nashwan. I saw him win the guinneas, derby, eclipse and king George. Unfortunately I only saw DB on TV but I did see him at Dalham Hall Stud once.
@Stephen Small yeah he would!
@Stephen Small not what swinburn said..
Last few strides Mick puts his whip down, it wasn’t a head bobbing driving finish, but I’d say it was only 1/2 furlong from the post when the matter was decisively settled. Rip van winkle rallied just like Shardari did against dancing brave in the King George, those weren’t easy wins but there were no hard luck stories and it was conclusive
If you look at the ratings of the horses DB beat in comparison with those Frankel took on the only conclusion is that DB was the better horse...the Arc in 86 in terms of who he beat and the manner in which he did it is for my money the best race ever...
at last a person that talks sense.You can run this race again on your computer without DB It is still a classy arc where Bering wins by a neck
Ratings are largely irrelevant on the grand scale of things.
I forgot just how good he was his pick up acceleration. Defied belief
must of felt some g forces around the 2f pole jesus wept the sheer speed ok they crawled but to quicken like that wow
Guy Harwood, Said he had so much speed that he would have been placed if not won a july cup.
Only Zaphonic would of got within half a length of Frankel over a mile. The Brave is my favourite horse of all time though.
Those saying, ah but he was useless in the breeders cup need to understand, that race was run at Santa Anita in Calafornia. I think only one European horse has ever won at that track. Is a really tight oval
Think when you think of all time great horses you have to remember he beat a real class field in the 2000 over a mile and was the best at much further.
The best horse who didn't win a English derby I bet greville Starkey still struggles to sleep at night
he sleeps really well tbh... he died in 2010.
Michael Moran what a knowledgable guy!!!! And what a TOOL
@@jasonfox4857 I stand by my statement best horse not to win the derby if you think otherwise your obviously a not very bright Knobhead 😂
Best horse never to win an english derby? Probably SECRETARIAT!!!
But l can. No doubting Frankel is a great horse, but the Brave was racing against much better than Frankel ever faced. I doubt Frankel would have got away from that '86 field, and besides, he never raced over 12f so nobody can state for a fact that he would have even stayed the distance.
There is plenty of evidence to suggest Frankel would have stayed 12f, just as there was that he would stay 10f when people were previously calling him only a miler.
Class
DB and FRANKEL Best Ever♥️
seabird would probably beat them both over 1m4f
Good performance, beating a champion Sprinter in a slowly run race. Anyone got a copy of Braves Craven race?
fowlergod09, read my post again. I do not say Dancing brave holds the course record in the Arc. Talking about his achievements, i said 'course record in the Arc',. Frankel is a great and up there with DB, i was only pointing out that DB done it from 6f to 1m4f, and i believe he could have won the St Leger at 1m6f. I also believe Frankel could have stepped up to 1M 4F and went for the Arc, but we will never know, both had a phenomenal engines. The braves turn of foot was something else.
Can you explain what you're saying about course record in the arc please?
@@KryptonitetoallBS I think it means that Dancing Brave at the time won the Arc on the course in a record time for the Arc race alone, although his time might not be the overall course record at that distance, which might be held by another horse in another race that is not the Arc, but is also run over the same course and distance.
For example, Dancing Brave won the Arc at Longchamp in a then record time of 2:27.70 for the Arc, although the following two years it was beaten by both Trempolino and Tony Bin, but the Grand Prix de Paris and Prix Vermeille are other Group 1 races run over the same course and distance.
And the Prix Foy and Prix Niel are Group 2 Arc trial races run over the same course and distance, the Prix du Conseil de Paris is another Group 2 run after the Arc that is also over the same course and distance, with the Group 2 Prix d'Hédouville and the Listed Prix Lord Seymour both also being races over the same course and distance.
So presumably another horse or horses ran a faster time in one of those non-Arc races than Dancing Brave did in the Arc.
He is definitely one of the greatest ever. But Frankel was another beast altogether.
rubish !!! dancing brave won multilpe distances in an era where the competition was much stronger...
ratings dont tell the whole story...
doorway888 True. But he did flop big time over in America.. I think it is right to say he was only as good as Sea The Stars.. but Frankel is just another league altogether, despite being untested over 12 furlongs.. He's the pound for pound greatest - would dancing brave beat Frankel in any of Frankel greatest victories? Frankel would be odds on against Dancing Brave - but I'm not taking anything away from DB, he is one of the best to do it, no doubt.
+Lee SOG dancing brave would have beaten frankel over 6 or 7 or a mile !!!!!!
marco feldzy Timeform, who analyse every detail of a race.. say Frankel wins by 1 1/2 lengths.. as a 3 year old..
Zafonic best horse turbo speed
Struggling to find the 1m4f race Frankel won...
please dont crab frankle the horse was a machine
@@paulmichaelrichardson6582 he,s right though!
DB won over 6f to 12f..
And that ARC win was something else..
Loved Frankel machine.
But the Brave for me..
Starkey looks over his shoulder to take the piss.
He used to bark at other jockeys..
best turn of foot?? DB was great but best turn of foot must go to sea bird in the 65 derby!!??
Greville!!
Anyone who says that frankel was better than dancing brave are deluded, DB took on far superior horses at different distances and destroyed them, unlike frankel more or less same horses n same distance all the time, frankel was a good horse but nowhere near the brave, don’t forget dancing brave was the highest rated racehorse for years and years then suddenly they decided to change the ratings, absolute shit, dancing brave was the greatest,
Gary Pollard is that right, name 1 horse that frankel beat over 12 furlongs,,, none because he couldn’t stay that distance, dancing brave beat everything from 7f to 12 furlongs, that tells you itself dancing brave was a better horse,, your the deluded 1
@@thebay77sanfrancisco72 100% certain Dancing Brave was a more superior and versatile horse he won at different distances his Arc de Triomphe win was one of the best ever seen the race was full of top class horses. don't get me wrong Frankel was a very good horse one of the best milers ever seen but he never beat anything in the same category as Dancing Brave and never raced outside England those Timeform ratings are ridiculous Frankel's unbeaten record was protected and i believe that is why they would not race him abroad or at different distances
@@genuinematerial6618 absolutely correct 100% 👏👏👏
Here here. .
@@thebay77sanfrancisco72 If Dancing Brave beat everything from 7f to 12 f, how then did he run unplaced in the Breeders Cup Turf at 12f? He can't have beat everything then?
Deluded is you. DB was bounced after gun running it in the USA.
Unless of course we are going down the well worn UK excuse path?
@vania1013 Frankel is brilliant, but DB won at 8f, 10f and 12f.
Devastating turn of foot. Same brigade who castigate Starkey (who did make a balls up) as used to get on to Jamie Spencers back
Dancing brave is my favourite racehorse but having seen sea the stars remain unbeaten at 3 and never being truly extended I believe him to be the best horse.
Sea The Stars was extended in the Eclipse and there is an argument to say Rip Van Winkle might have run him closer and maybe even beaten him when he was upsides and then shied back, having been struck ion the head by Mick Kinane's whip.
And just by the very fact that Kinane needed to use his whip tells its own story.
@@seanscanlon9067Sea the stars was travelling so easily he found himself in front fully 2 furlongs from the finish, Rio van winkle began his challenge then and the 2 were far apart, as we get into the business end of the race it’s clear rip van winkle drifts in towards sea the stars as he gets upside. Mick was fully entitled to use his whip and he pulls out extra winning a shade cosily a 100 yards from the finish pushing him out with hands and heals, accelerating again to win by 1 1/2 length. With no stewards enquiry and Mick not wanting the 2 horses to make contact it makes sense to use the whip in the left hand. Sea the stars hardest fought race was the Beresford stakes at two, beaten in his maiden race. Balance and temperament and never doing more than what was needed to win meant he could go through the season unbeaten beating the best horses Coolmore had around
@@seanscanlon9067 Piggott used the whip on Nijinsky in the Derby, it doesn’t mean he was extended to do so, just keeping him up to his work and asking for a little more, which he found. Even the great dancing brave was shown the whip a few times.
@@mikerainham Sea The Stars as you say hit the front at the two pole but Rip Van Winkle tracked him all the way and was going just as well, if not better, having been around a length and a half down at the two pole and ranged almost upsides with half a furlong to go.
Kinane hits STS 6 to 7 times which does nor suggest he was unextended to me and even Jim McGrath in commentary said:
"....Rip Van Winkle in his slipstream".
".....he's gone for the whip, Kinane"
"....here's Rip Van Winkle though, coming up on the outside".
You then see RVW's head turn away after being struck by Kinane's whip and he goes from ranging almost upsides to dropping back to a length and a half down, before closing again very late on to be beaten a length.
It was an accidental strike of the whip from Kinane and he did nothing wrong deliberately, and so there was no need for a stewards enquiry, yet the race would have been much closer but for that whip incident and STS clearly did not win unextended.
In fact, he did not even win the Juddmonte unextended either, for that matter.
@@mikerainham Another horse ranged upsides Nijinksky around a furlong out in the Derby and horses tend to run down the camber at Epsom, so Piggott gave Nijinksky one slap behind to hold his racing line, one behind to chase down the leader and then one down the shoulder as he pulled his whip into the forehand position and then went hands and heels to the line after passing the leader.
Nijinksky also won the Derby by about three lengths too and as far Dancing Brave goes, yes he was hit with the whip in the Derby when trying to make up ten lengths at the end of the race and did a ten second or so final furlong.
You mean one of the best around. Best ever to live is extreme. After all, he did get beaten!
@spaceweed10 Totally agree
They say that secretariat is the world record holder for a mile at 1.45 but Dancing Brave timed 1.40 in this 2000 Guineas ???
starkey was a broken man after the derby.
Frankel did beat some very good horses like st Nicholas Abbey Canford cliffs Excelabration can't say he didn't beat much possible Brave win in the Arc was full of great horses Shadari Sharastani who was fortunate too win the Derby also beat the great Triptych
not anymore
Frankel may have beaten dancing brave in the guinneas but dancing brave won over 8, 10, 12 furlongs. I'm not sure what to make of frankel just yet? He may prove himself to be a great miler
Frankel would have blown most Guineas winner to smithereens, let alone Dancing Bave. Prince Kahalid Abdullah, the owner of Frankel and Dancing Brave said quite recently in an interview with the BBC that of all the race horses he has ever owned, Frankel is without doubt the best of all.
I backed El Gran Senor in the Dewhurst , Guineas and in the English & Irish Derby . He was a great horse who won a very competitive Guineas - but he only ever ran one race at a mile and that was it . He was not an out and out miler like Frankel or Brigadier Gerard .
What Khalid Abdullah said doesn't mean fuck all, he was a rich owner not a trainer or jockey
He beat the Australian Guineas winner by 19 lgts. He beat the Marois and QE2 winner by 11 lgts He beat Cirrus des Aigles on Cirrus preferred going an distance. His form is rock solid. Of course the Arc field in '86 was very deep but frankel's form is rock solid mate.
Think Frankel would win over a mile , 1m 2f would be very close but Dancing Brave would win over 1m 4f
He was my all time great until Frankel came along , but as an earlier poster said Frankel is the present .
Will never forget the commentator in the Arc "and here comes Dancing Brave"
Fantastic horse
Guineas 2 years previous 84 was a lot stronger race! The brave was world class one of the best ever no doubt! think el gran senor guineas victory would have been at least the Equal of dancing brave,zafonic, and Frankel on guineas performance alone. Dancing brave's arc win was spectacular and frankel's judmonte win best ever seen? Frankel should have skipped champions stakes and went 4 the arc for grand finale would have bashed up solemia and orfevre for sure all personal opinion though!
Pat Eddery said the Brave was a Rolls Royce. .
That from the master says it all..
Oh if he had been on it in the Derby it would have won..
Gave Sharastani and 3 other Derby winners and the Great filly Tryptych 6l of a start and flew by them..
Probably the greatest ARC field ever..
frankel the greatest
That's a matter of opinion.
@Stephen Small
Now that would have been a race..
But think Swinburn commented that the Brave was the best he had seen.
Said Eddery laughed at him when he flew passed him in the King George. ..
Yes he’s Arc win was very impressive lol.
well frankel as now won at 1 mile 2 and will win at 1 mile 4, without doubt the best horse ever, dancing brave was great but frankel is the best, unbeaten and you cant argue with never got beat.
Of course you can argue with that. frankel didn't run at 1M 4f and his competition was nowhere near the braves
unreal dont get betta
He would have gone down as one of the all time greats.but for one thing .starkey.even ray charles and stevie wonder could of ridden it better than him in the derby.terrible ride
oh Starkry oh Starkey god rest your soul but you had no idea how to ride this horse. Even in the guineas you do not arrogantly look behind for the others
and that arrogance cost big time . Just be gratetful that you got Shirley Heights home in 1978, RIP Grevile
Clare Balding to Prince Khalid Abdullah : " Is he ( Frankel ) the best you have ever owned ? " Khalid Abdullah: " Yes "
Clare Balding: " Better than Dancing Brave ?
Khalid Abdullah : "Oh yes, I think so ! "
this reply by abdullah was all to do with breeding
No it wasn't : the question was asked after Frankel had won a race and was based on racing ability alone . Breeding never entered the equation at that stage .@@wheretheresawilltheresaway7752
@@ThefightingCelt the question was asked and abdullah answered it because he knew his answer would effect its price when it came to breeding what abdullah done to the brave selling him to japan was a disgrace
MONEY.
He didn't win one but in my honest view would comfortably have beaten DB if they met over 12. DB barely stayed it as you see in the KG. I love Dancing Brave. Read my comments on his dDerby run for proof, but Frankel was several pounds superior as a racehorse. Most expert opinion agrees with this.
It's only sentiment that leads anyone to think that Dancing Brave was better than Frankel . The fact is that Frankel destroyed most of the opposition mid race . He had a huge stride and could maintain his top speed over a sustained distance . Dancing Brave had a good turn of foot but as Eddery said , he had to get into stride a fair bit out before he could utilise . When both Khalid Abdulla and Sir Teddy Grimthorpe say , unequivocally , that Frankel was better than Dancing Brave , then you have to take notice . Dancing Brave was retired after his dismal Breeders' Cup run , so therefore we did not get to see how good a 4 year old he might have been , but we do know that Frankel got even better win his third season .
and thats wy greville got slalted for his derby ride greville made dancing brave
You don't have to take notice of Khalid Abdullah at all. He was a rich owner spending inherited money, not a trainer ffs
mental
He was OK. A bit overrated in my opinion. Only beat a handful in the King George and won a sub par Arc
Nope, Frankel didn’t beat the type of opposition that Dancing Brave did. And Frankel may not have stayed the 14f as well as a true stayer. But that’s why he never ran it. He was built for speed and had stamina too but never needed to show it as he was always clear with a furlong to go (apart from final race). However, anyone who believe Frankel would have been beat by any horse that ever lived, over the mile trip. Your smoking some hard rocks. He was the best miler I ever seen.. Hands down, there’s not been another like him and I doubt we’ll see another quite as good (over a mile).
Worked for guy Harwood at the time. 82 to 89, best days of my life, was lucky enough to have ridden him as a yearling. And no surprise he was as good as he was. 👍👍
Very Good points made about the Brave & Frankel..I Can Assure you that the Calibre of Opponent that Dancing get Brave Destroyed Consistently was Way Superior to ones Frankel beat...When you consider Dancing Brave was a May foal & didn't race at 4 like Frankel then it's even More Astounding..Dancing Brave won his Guineas as a 2 & a half year old Horse..I think El Gran Senor, Zilzal & Zafonic were Great milers & not too far behind him..But as a middle Distance Horse he is the Best I've seen by Far..Khalid Abdulah should be Ashamed of himself to say Frankel was better..I'm Ashamed of Abdulah...What is he thinking ? Dancing Brave also polled ALL 27 Votes for Horse of the Year..Hardly Ever achieved..And there were Champions in Abundance in that year from 84 & 85 as well as 86...
Graham Monro absolutely 100% correct, dancing brave is the greatest ever, machine of a horse,
By the time Khalid Abdullah said that, DB was long since dead and there was no money to be made from stud fees. Best in my lifetime was Dancing Brave too.
Worked for guy Harwood at the time. 82 to 89, best days of my life, was lucky enough to have ridden him as a yearling. And no surprise he was as good as he was. 👍👍
Worked for guy Harwood at the time. 82 to 89, best days of my life, was lucky enough to have ridden him as a yearling. And no surprise he was as good as he was. 👍👍
Wow, must have been joyous.
Did you all know just how good he was as a yearling ?
@@issyjas3309 yes even as a youngster he gave you an amazing feel. He would just carry you up the gallops with ease. And any baby that gave you a feel like that had ti be exciting
Worked for guy Harwood at the time. 82 to 89, best days of my life, was lucky enough to have ridden him as a yearling. And no surprise he was as good as he was. 👍👍