Personally, the biggest concern is Hunting Horn being reduced to the "pocket horn", where it is not even treated as a weapon, but rather just bit of utility get some buffs up when the Monster(s) decide to switch areas. At least enough so that the most vocal of the meta slaves will start to get pissed of at the people who "dare" to actually use it to hunt the monster, instead of just the "quick & dirty" buff-n-swap
Well, as someone who tried speed running (and failed) lmao... I really don't think the majority of the community will benefit by using HH as a pocket horn. The HH buff only last about 90 seconds up to 180 seconds. Unless you can hunt the monster down in that time frame or at least 1-2 iterations of the buff more, I can only see this as a benefit for other speed runners. It will be used as a pocket horn, yes. But it won't be for like the 98% of the fanbase.
@@DLinton I can't imagine that happening on a normal hunt tho. Do an 8 step process every 2-3 minutes, it ain't worth it. Esp if they lowered the buff duration -- this 180 sec is from world.
If people would only play hunting horn for the buffs, then they were never going to seriously use hunting horn anyway. If anything, pocket horning will cause many more people to try and eventually main hunting horn.
@@sephboxThis. So many HH mains try to gate keep their preferred weapon and it makes no sense. Only about 2% of player's in MHW used HH. That number jumped to 3.6% in Rise. Meaning that over 142,000 new plays used HH (based on percentages and sales figures for each game) but HH players acted like the changes in Rise were the end of the world. Now there's the possibility that even more people might try the HH, shock and horror. My first main was CB and I am constantly trying to get new people to try it because they might have fun if they do (it is not that complicated and can be a lot of fun).
@@randomdude4505 intentionally misunderstanding and incorrectly stating what peoples' concerns or issues are with something doesn't exactly make for a good rebuttal. and let's be extremely clear. the "goodness" or "badness" of a weapon is totally disconnected from the percentage of players using it unless the only way you derive joy from something is feeling as though you are included in a larger group. they could make hunting horn do five times as much damage as it does currently but remove all of its actually interesting mechanics and the percentage of players playing it would still go up. they could make the most interesting weapon even more rewarding to play mechanically, but do 1% of the damage it currently does and the percentage of players playing it would go down. it is a completely meaningless metric to cite. fundamentally changing a play experience into a completely different one isn't exclusively going to be rewarding someone who likes something already, because a person can like a weapon for what it is at a particular point in time, not just because it has the same name as a weapon from a previous game. not everyone is a die hard fan of being able to say they like a particular weapon type as the aesthetic, a lot of times that is informed by what the weapon is or was in a specific game or span of time, and it is totally possible to fall out of love with a weapon directly because of changes made to it. and you'd have to be a really dim sort to think that a player who liked a weapon a decade ago is being unreasonable for not unconditionally loving it forever, no matter what it is or becomes.
@@randomdude4505 I never said people should not use HH, also I liked the speed of HH on rise despite it being dumbed down and reduced songlist. I only want HH to be looked more like the hammer with buffs being an extra, not the only value it has
@@gmerc1333 that's a lot of words to say you are one of the gate keepers. It's ok, your boyfriend will still take you to the prom even if the new girl is prettier than you.
that depends how long the buffs stick, think about it, do you drink your drugs and skins every time you lose your buff? did you cap your spirit bird buffs before you fight every monster? not everyone is going to play the meta, and if they do then how does that diminish your enjoyment? it's not pvp, just enjoy the game.
Think about what you’re saying. Really think about it. You’re fighting a boogeyman. This guy keeps making videos attacking “the meta people” and their community but, can anyone actually point them out? Can anyone actually show proof this is even an issue? No one is playing like this. No one is saying this. The guy making all these videos keeps attacking the community over and over just because some people min max, or optimise, or have concerns about a stale meta by making some over the top boogeyman -or maybe it’s a strawman, doesn’t matter. He’s deliberately falsely exaggerating the position of his opponents to make people think he has more of a point that he does. So the what you said and apply it to the reality that doesn’t really exist.
Totally agree, specially with the potions one, I usually do that every cart as a self ingrained "good practice".... but after grinding first GS kills with Alatreon (and currently going trough Fatty), where a cart could be less than a few minutes through and attempt with bad luck... applying potions every single time just became to annoying so I stopped doing that dozens of hours ago. I'm one of the players that want to use HH as one of the 2 weapons in Wilds, but because I want to BATTLE with that horn, if I swap to it, its going to stay, and if I swap again and somehow there are still time for some buffs, thats a short lived bonus, not my objective
@@MysteriousStranger50 really easy examples of meta are wallbangs/tenderize/claw reset (once monster is stunned) ,these are absolutely must do's if u want to kill any of the later bosses like alatreon or fatalis where the dmg you do to the monster needs to be the highest at all times. monster hunter wilds has removed those 3 meta things that players were required to do but then they implemented the ability to bring 2 different weapons, which by proxy allows another meta to be created which is the new HH/LBG secondary meta that consists of playing ur main weapon and then throwing in HH or LBG for buffs/status procs, they also added the new wound system which by itself isnt really meta but i can see it being meta if ur playing bow or insect glaive since those weapons have CRAZY damage on their focus strikes.
the video's super disingenuous framing of it aside (the decision to exclusively describe this as a problem possessed only by the meta-obsessed), the concern is less that something is changing, but whether or not what it's changing to is more or less fun. as someone who really likes hunting horn, i do not like the idea that my entire existence in a hunt can be replaced to a degree by someone just bringing their hunting horn and switching between it and their real weapon to benefit from the buffs WITHOUT actually playing the weapon. that's why it's so dishonest to describe this as people afraid someone will play hunting horn. the thought is that hunting horn as the secondary may provide a disproportionate set of benefits to using it as your secondary (without even really needing to engage with the weapon itself in combat, no less!) compared to the overwhelming majority of other available weapons, which will only change the avenue by which you deal damage and the kind of damage you deal.
Exactly this, I think the worry was mostly from players who main or just really like HH not wanting to see it reduced to a buff tool rather than its own weapon
Genuinely how is this a problem it will be the same as it ever was for HH and literally every other weapon: the people who like HH will use it and the people who don't won't and if someone deems it worth their time to be constantly switching back n forth between horn and their main for the buffs that's on them lol other people should not affect your enjoyment of the weapon
This is a really weird take. You're not being robbed of some perceived sense of uniqueness or importance. There are still a ton of things that someone using this stray might not be able to do that an HH main CAN do, like knocking a monster out. Your moveset is still uniquely yours. You still contribute just as much to the hunt. The difference is, if they want to buff, they have to COMPLETELY disengage from the monster, jump on their Seikret, swap weapons, buff, jump BACK on their Seikret, swap BACK to their other weapon, and then re-engage the monster. All while being continuously attacked. I'm sure they are decreasing the buff lengths as well to compensate, so whether it's actually advantageous to do this or a huge waste of time is to be decided.
@@SynysterProjects "decreasing buff lengths to compensate" is sort of exactly what anyone asking in a Q&A is looking to inquire about, because while you're sure they did that, no one actually is sure of that yet. as it turns out, inquiring about these things that aren't really a given does have value and isn't just "meta slaves" asking nonsense questions in disbelief that things might be different (no one is confused about this), as it was characterized as in the video.
The concern is not that people will use HH. The issue is twofold. 1. If it is so much better than any other secondary option you are gimped if you don't use it to buff your main. 2. HH as a main becomes a worse option since its buffs are built into its balance already, while the buffs are a big plus for other main weapons. I think the main way to balance is faster expiration or reduced effectiveness when you swap off HH. I don't worry about the meta too much, but if the balancing is egregious it can be a problem. E.x. say your standard performance on weapon X is a 15m hunt and just adding HH secondary brings you to 8m. Is that too much? There is some point where the benefit is fine and some point where it's too much and that's why we have balance. Also, no 91 combinations is not too complex for a clear meta to emerge. I guarantee most combinations will be completely predictable i.e. say LS can get a 10m kill and GS 12m, if you run LS/GS it'll be 11m. They don't multiply, it'll just average out. The exceptions will be combos that can effect each other or change your ability to deal damage in different phases of the hunt, like HH buffs or swapping to ranged when a monster flies.
It truly is dumb to say that a META can't emerge just because there's that many combinations. Like buddy have you played an MMO? Just because there's a lot of combinations doesn't mean there won't be a META. Like with that logic no MMO could ever possibly hope to have a META.
@@strateks9611 not to mention he believes those who engage with the meta are going to be super pissy because of it. I think more than likely what’s gonna happen is that a lot of people are gonna have more fun experiment and testing to see what the new meta might be
Yup and HBG might end up dominating as the 'pocket weapon' when you can just blow it's most expensive, limited-ammo load (wyvern/cluster ammo) and then just put it back into your pocket for the rest of the hunt. That's objectively going to be a super strong pairing with any weapon.
@strateks9611 even without looking at MMOs, the Generation games and their weapon styles exist, so examining more than the old 14 weapons is already something MH fans have done.
@@7F0X7Honestly, one of the ranged weapons seems to be the way to go for most cases of pocket weapon. Status, special shots, what have you: Once you've done what you wanted to with the ranger weapon, you can go back to another weapon. (Not to mention being able to do ranged damage whilst mounted will always be fun, no matter how unoptimized.) Honestly excited for ranged players to be able to do more by having 2 weapons, making for combinations near the level of Tri's Bowgun system.
The only real concern for "Pocket Horn" Meta is that people see the HH as only buffs and nothing else. Before this the Buffs of the HH was a big selling point for the weapon but you could not just play the weapon for the buffs because if you sucked at HH, only used buffs as your Primary Contribution to the Hunt you are an Ass. Now it is sadly viable to do just that and switch off the weapon which sucks for People really liking the HH because it invalidates there experience with the HH to some degree. Now I think the "Pocket Horn" Meta will not be a Meta at all because most People couldn't even be bothered to collect the spiribirds in Rise and that gave you a permanent buff for the entire hunt. So no i do not think people will start going on their seikret every few minutes to ride along the monster for 1 - 2 minutes trying to play all their songs before reengaging in combat. The "Pocket Horn" Meta might not even give you better DPS as the time spent running arround tooting you have 0 DPS if you only play it for the buffs on seikrets Back.
Okay, you are completely misrepresenting what people have said on this matter here honestly. The concern, however valid or not, isn't some weird hatred for HH and it being part of a "meta". It is that because buffs remain after switching, people are afraid that it the weapon itself might not get the recognition it deserves because people will just use it as a glorified buff stick and just use something else to deal the actual damage. IF that is true remains to be seen of course cause the game isn't even out yet, so if you wanna talk about whether this concern is blown out of proportion? sure, but don't straight up lie please. Nobody "hates" the hunting horn and nobody is mad that people will use it more or not. Besides I'm quite unsure the devs haven't thought of this when designing the new 2-weapon system anyway.
@echoq7594 yeah, while it may not be loved for its personal damage, I've never really had people reject me for using a HH simply due to the bonus AuL being nice bonus that even meta slaves appreciate. However, it changes if you got multiple Pocket Horns on a team, it makes the HH main kinda redundant or even a liability to the team's damage output if they don't buff the weapon to be on par with others.
@@camil3545 Nah. It's not like HH isn't capable of dealing dmg. Weapon choice in monster hunter doesn't matter, it's how you play it. It has been true since I don't even know when. And just like you said you never got rejected using HH, bcs people don't care what you're playing. As long as you play it properly. Liability is gunner who can't aim properly. Or lance who can't even tank. Or IG who styling around but can't deal dmg. Even multiple HH is viable. Let alone if the other HH is just staying in the pocket which only means they don't have to buff themselves and keep dps-ing instead.
Ofcoarse I'm taking a hunting horn with me. It's gunna be my main. On a side note the meta made me decide to never play with randoms again. I like using horns with anti-things songs, ailment immunity, HG earplugs, wind negate, those kind of songs especially on harder monster people always cart to. One day while helping people fight vaal hazak (cuz I love fighting it) while using a horn with ailment negate. I got group after group where atleast 1 person said "why aren't you using attack up songs?" I said it's cuz people keep dying to efluvian and these songs will make sure they are alive to actually fight. They just kept telling me to switch horns... after a few days of that with different monsters, I just stopped playing with randoms period. I only now really play with friends or solo. On the bright side I got way better, still can't solo certain fights but I am way more capable. And I still like using anti things songs.
The entitlement on this people to tell you how to play lmao. I'd start doing nothing out of pettiness, like who tf do you think you are to tell me to play the game the way YOU want? Also that wasn't "the meta". There is no such thing as "the meta". People who actually play the game with the strongest options will always form their own groups since it's more effective. Even if they were to play with randoms they wouldn't care what other people are doing, they'd only care people don't cart, like you do, whether they do something about it is something else. If anything, they're meta-slaves. That doesn't make them "meta players". You were playing with trash that's too concerned with being baby-fed buffs by a HH user. You just know they're kind of players who don't bring Health Boost and take no accountability when they fail everybody the mission.
@@Vulcanfauxthere’s a guy in the comments acting like these “meta” people don’t exist. I wish I could remember his name. You should find him and tell this story. I am completely unsurprised. I dabble in horn and I like the ones that get rid of blights etc. “sonic barrier” in Rise is actually crazy good at preventing knockbacks. Hella fun to play with.
I HATE Meta in games. Not necessarily because a "most effective tactic available" exists, but because meta chasers are OBSESSSED with it to the point of removing the fun from the game, not only for themselves but for others as well. I remember when I used to play LoL I would build anti tank on Jhin depending on the enemy team composition, and I would always get flack for not using a specific item that lets the ADC dash forward. I would pick the Kraken Slayer, that grants bonus TRUE DAMAGE (bypasses all defenses) on every third attack, against tanks that had a crapton of defense and HP. It didn't matter that my KDA was 15/1/20, I would get bombarded with insults and several instances of my own team attempting to get an early surrender vote because "Jhin is trolling" for not building meta, instead adapting to the situation and winning! So what if players have access to the Hunting Horn and can buff themselves!? That's what the hunting is for, and if you can switch between a weapon you're more comfortable with, what does it matter!? Monster Hunter is a co-op PVE game, there's no PVP to whine about balancing, just grab the weapon you like the most and play the way you see fit! Meta chasers are such a nuisance to gaming as a whole!
You know what's great ? It's sometimes hard but we can just ignore the internet and play however we want, it's not because people saw one strong thing that you can't find an other strong thing. I've always seen HH as one of the strongest weapon! It might kill slower, but who cares if you're really having fun ? That being said, i'll be playing my two favourite weapon no matter what, SnS & HH!
Why say you hate meta when you don't? Balancing in a co-op or single player PvE game still matters; I agree that people can play the game with whatever weapons they want though
You literally just wrote an oxymoron I hate meta but pocket horn meta sounds good. this will make it meta to bring a hh almost always. When going online will make it welcome to have it as a secondary but hh damage ain't that big why the hell you still hitting the monster with that music pipe get a real weapon out we ate already buffed. Them well have the greatsword bowgun meta and hh meta essential on every team bowgun unlike hh always top hitters so bowgunners aren't affected as much as a hh main. But I guess meta is only bad when it affects you directly
Meta doesn't mean "most effective tactics available". Sorry for being pedantic, but I wish this misinformation would die. It's not only a backcronym, the original word (metagame) is actually a far better description of what meta truly stands for anyway.
As long as they don't design the end game or any part of the game AROUND this meta I don't particularly mind, because I have zero interest in ever playing that. I'm sure folks are concerned this will mess with the identity of the horn, or make horn players obsolete, and it might in some circles. But honestly I don't think most folks are going to use that meta, or maybe they'll rig it so when you swap away from HH it removes your buffs which would completely counter the whole thing. I think the real thing that will happen though, is that set skills will prevent this from being a meta. As for speed runners and meta builders, they're going to keep going. There's no stopping them. They will eventually find the most optimal way to get those numbers, AI probably will help speed that up, and speed runners will always exist, even if they're not as fast as other games, they're still going to keep track and they're still gunna keep going.
The issue isn't that people are using the hunting horn it's not they are only using it for buffs. Some people play hunting horn because they can get those buffs but because they are transferring to other weapon what's stopping people from abusing the buffs and just playing idk longsword. It's going to increase the number of people that are "playing" the weapon but not for the reason of actually using it. The horn is already one of the least plated weapons in the game and I got a feeling the the number is going to be even smaller now of people actually using the weapon as a weapon and not just a buff source. That's what people are worried about not that people will be using it but using it for only one reason.
Ofc it's upsetting because it will make all the hunting horn players obsolete now. All their identity is gone, because everyone can now do what they do. You clearly don't understand the issue and try to play it of as if being ignorant is a good thing, while the issue is real and stands. Just like being able to heal and sharpen on the mount, while the mount is in no way limited in use. Hunting Horn mains had a thing, one thing - they can buff themselves and other players. It was the exclusive thing that they were bringing to the table. Something to call their own. Their weapon identity. It is completely erased with that double weapon feature - because now EVERYBODY can do what they do, except they are stuck with a weapon, that by design - hits weaker than other weapons, because they had access to the buffs. So your comparison of bringing a secondary hammer or secondary heavy bowgun makes absoluetly no sense. Because these other weapons don't have that unique "one and one thing only" that they were centered around. Changing from GS to Hammer doesn't change anything, nor does it matter if someone changes to hammer. That means we just have 2 ppl bonking on the head now instead of one. But if someone brings a horn when I am a horn main, especially if it has the same melodies. Well congrats to me, I am now playing a weaker version of hammer with a different moveset I guess. So yea, it's quite obvious - if you only spent 5 seconds thinking about it, instead of being fucking condescending - what the issue is. And you will see the problem when the game arrives. Just like with Seikrat healing/sharpening. Because, from a game design standpoint, it flattens out the game. Flattens the depth of the game. Why? Because games, in order to be good, to have depth, they need "sliders". Sliders for difficulty, sliders for complexity. But modern monster hunters keeps changing "sliders" for "switches". So now, you can't have a balanced difficulty curve over the expierience, because, any hit that doesn't instantly kill you, doesn't matter. Why doesn't it matter? For 2 reasons. 1. It doesn't matter, because you can call your Seikrat while grounded (invoulnerable) it will pick you up, and now you can outpace the monster - meaning you are basically unhittable for the duration - while healing up and sharpening your weapon. Basically reseting the fight (for you, not the monster) 2. It's not like you're gonna run out of healing - because you can simply go back to camp and restock at any point. So how does this flat out the depth of the game? Simple. The "slider" for difficulty was changed to a "switch" because now, for the monster to pose any real threat to you, it has to either 1shot you, or combo you to death without giving you any way of recovery (more elaborate 1shot). You are allowed 0 mistakes or you're dead. That isn't a good difficulty curve. There is no depth here. You either do it without a single mistake or you lost. Good difficulty curve should allow developers to crank down number of mistakes allowed between "many mistakes" = easier monster, and "just a few mistakes" = harder monster. But they can't do that anymore, because, as proven above, if you allow even 1 mistake, it is rendered irrelevant, by being able to just heal up on a mount with zero consequences for using the item and restocking in case you are really bad and keep getting hit all the time. So Monsters can now be always easy or extremely hard (nothing in between), because it's either "getting hit doesn't matter" or "getting hit means death".
Most people will not bring pocket horns just for buffs. Most people won't remember to take all their item buffs. HH mains will be appreciated, because, at the very least, the meta slaves who bring pocket HH will be free to play a secondary weapon they actually like when you, the HH main, show up in the lobby. Your complaints about using the mount during combat should really be held off until you actually play the hard hunts that they will be designing around the sekret once the game launches. Being mad because it isn't old Mon Hun is useless. Just go enjoy old Mon Hun some more while waiting. If you want to try the game next year, do so.
I understand this, but dont agree with it. I see where youre coming from, since we saw the same issue in Sunbreak when it comes to the difficulty (if you know, you know). But hear me out... this is not a pvp game and nobody is robing nobody of anything by using the hunting horn like that. I know you want to feel special in your videogame as the 2% player who mains hunting horn, but did you ever thought that maybe this is a good thing and people maybe give your weapon a try? therefore increasing hunting horn players that now want to main the weapon and therefore getting more attention from developers to improve it? I saw a different comment in one of his videos about hunting horn players being one of the most gate keeping players out there and by the look of this comment, it seems hes right. My point is, if youre a Hunting horn main, by then, you should already have mastered your weapon and be a better and more reliable hunting horn player, that people WOULD love to have on their party. A hunting horn player that mastered his weapon will always do more damage than some average casual longsword player, so i REALLY fail to see the issue here. Forget the meta. With this iteration they are giving us the chance to spice it up a little and try new things out. We will get a couple new monsters and the rest will be the same familiar faces with one or two new moves. The fun is on the weapons and getting out of our confort zone. Thats what monster hunters has always been about.
If everyone takes hunting horn, everyone is being inefficient, and thus not meta. One hunting horn us the optimal number of hunting horns. If you main it, you are the one person bringing it.
i think there is also the side of the HH players themselves. basically, people become very proud of maining and being good at certain weapons and some HH players might feel like their "identity" is being taken away and think "how dare they use MY weapon as simply a buff item".
My main concern is that people may start to see hunting horn as glorified Mega demon drug and not even use it as a weapon. Using a hammer just to KO, still requires you to go there, hit the monster, and use it as a weapon, using a cutting weapon just to cut the tail, still requires you to go there and hit the tail, Using a ranged waepon to shoot the monster from afar, still requires you to use it as a weapon. Now with hunting horn, some people may just hop on their seikrets buff themselves and drop the weapon. So, i don't give a fuck if the meta shifts to using the hunting horn, as long you are using it as a fucking weapon. God i loved when my favorite weapon was the most broken weapon in the Monster Hunter Rise demo.
I’m upset about it especially since I’m very close to a HH player, I don’t like when players feel like they’re making no impact and HH players will start feeling like that if buffs will transfer between weapons. Arguing it being broken, yeah next we’re going to start hearing Sleep Dual Blades + high Raw Greatsword as the broken problem strat. To clarify, I don’t have a problem bringing HH to a hunt, I just think it should be done differently so primary HH players don’t feel pressured into playing something they don’t want to play because it feels difficult or impossible to play their weapon because other players overshadowing them with the same weapon
The real issue is that hunting may become a requirement. In this case: Capcom may take the hunting horns buffs into account when making the creature's stat pools. A more robust stat pool means harder fights. Even if the armor is made to keep up defense wise the fights would still be longer to balance the fact that you can carry two weapons into a fight. Seriously, this is my first time hearing of this feature or this problem but did you think capcom was going to add a feature that they didn't consider weapon combos? Of course people would consider that the hunting horn exists and can buff you. They would also think that since they arent trapped into playing one weapon now that capcom wouldn't disregard the fact and do something stupid like make it a near requirement for later fights to carry around a hunting horn.
If the hunt were a straight-up slap fight, _maybe_ the *real numbers* would matter, but with all the other forms of burst damage, the _fair_ Hunting Horn buffs wouldn't make a noticeable difference.
@JanderStrahd Yeah, I think you are right. However I'm not sure capcom will view it that way. I'm personally more interested in the armor changes that will have to be made to support two weapons. And i wanna rain down from insect glaive into hammer bonk. But it was the first issue and concern I had looking at the issue and capcom would have to take such strategies into consideration. Which, if they try to correct for, would mean changes to the monsters or changes to the weapons outputs.
People don't even use Demondrugs and Armorskin. And people do fine. Technically, Capcom "accounts" for all the ridiculous buffs you can already get, but you can still get sub-20 hunts with absolutely no buffs and playing loosely and stupidly. It's almost always never going to be a problem for people who aren't trying to compete.
I haven't followed this but I would personally be upset if bringing a hunting horn secondary weapon frees up a bunch of deco slots on my builds or make me build around guaranteed HH buffs. I would feel like I need to bring it just to equip more abilities I want and it kind of kills the coolness of bringing two weapons on field since I am locked into needing hunting horn. I'm not a meta player just enjoy optimizing builds on my own
People will demand of others to bring a hh for the buffs and a dps weapon for actually using. Sooo if you just wanna play hh it is very likely other players already do the same songs as you do + more damage. Therefore hh hunter that does use the Hh for more then just the buffis seen as a intrinsic downgrade for the team.
The concern is that in previous games the hunting horn has no good traits to it other than the melodies, and even with melodies the weapon falls behind in damage or status buildup or any trait that other weapons get. The hunting horn is balanced around the fact it has buffs while other weapons are not balanced around it. The concern is that hunting horn will be an obsolete primary weapon because "why use hunting horn when I can use it for the buff and do actual damage using other weapons." I don't agree with the concern as much because they turned the hunting horn into its own unique niche with more supportive effects and a lot less downtime, when before it was just hammer but more micro and less damage, but that's where the concern is.
Yeah, but the concern is dumb because the horn is currently “obsolete.” It’s not in anybody’s META. It’s not like it’s included in anyone’s world record speed runs. It’s already more “META” to bring along another long sword or HBG than it is to bring a horn. If you are currently playing horn because it’s the “best” thing to do…you’re doing it wrong.
The 91 combinations idea is kinda flawed, they figured it out which weapon/style combos are comparatively meta with a smaller overall fanbase at the time and Styles generally offer a bigger disparity to your overall playstyle than a side weapon that you need to mount/swap/dismount to access. Frankly, most weapon combos will probably be less efficient than just focusing on your main 99% of the hunt and just switching to a HH for buffs or LBG for status when necessary.
i don't disagree with everything your saying but your demonizing the speed running community and to be honest your being dramatic , theirs no one sitting there saying to themselves that they cant stand they don't control the meta , and oh no i cant test all the combos, people will and yes MH will change for better or for worse. personally I don't want MH to deviate to much from the older titles either , but even if it does i can still go back and play mhfu and 4u and gu ECT. if i don't like it then i can just go back, but to reiterate my point your making it deeper then what people are feeling yes its changing and I personally don't like that we can have 2 weapons now, sure the qol changes might be nice to some people but that doesn't mean you have to alienate the rest of the player base that doesn't like em. arguably they are the fans that have loved the games since the start. it does put a bit of a sour taste when new gen players want to change everything and make it completely different.
While I agree with the specific take at hand, the implications of this feature on „optimal/ most time efficient play“ I can understand the second weapon issue at it’s core and its effects on „weapon identity“ and ultimately gameplay variety in a long run. Part of the gameplay variety are the attributes of each weapons and the unique challenges each weapon faces when confronting a monster. Said challenges foster a bond between the hunter and his weapon, which many people including me enjoy ( I like playing lance mainly I don’t care about many other weapons). You could argue that you could still stick only with one weapon. Yet the truth is since it is a feature you as a player will be incentivized to use the second weapon specifically a different weapon. Essentially it’s not unlikely that by giving you more options they might take away the variety since switching to a different weapon will be less of an actual shift in playstyle, as the prior limitations no longer exists. (Sometimes less is more) I don’t think that more weapons means more gameplay variety such as you suggested with a simple mathematical equation, since gameplay variety is a subjective perception and not a mathematical problem. Therefore I find your take on meta because of your fixation on that aspect becomes reductive and sadly misses the potential effect of the second weapon option on the core gameplay loop. It would be interesting to see your thoughts on the other implications of the second weapon option on the core gameplay experience.
Speed running is still going to be a thing. They can run DPS numbers and just use whatever 2 weapons are in top. After that, they get to innovate with different combos to optimize for longer. But honestly I personally don’t care. I play MonHun casually.
The feeling si similar to when we didnt have hundreds of vídeos on each weapon, when playing a weapon didnt mean anything else than that you enjoyed it. You defined it really well, it was wonder, and getting better by playing and learning the game, instead of watching a thousand weapon tutorials on the most powerful moves. I really apreciate your vídeos, you are bringing back some of the wonder and enjoyment that monster hunter had lost for me
Interesting opinion...my takeaway? 20 minutes is a loooong video just to say "I don't understand the concern". I get that this channel's niche is kinda sorta rooted in anti meta/speedrunner/optimization contrarianism, and it's totally fine to do you with the hot takes, buuuut...this was all more than a bit disingenuous. Capcom has absolutely stated that they DO take meta and game balance into account when designing weapons and game features. Literally in the interview you quoted here when it was brought up to them, they said that they'd be looking to make it so that HH as a secondary isn't the go to thing, and after getting hands on with the demo some this weekend I can already see some of the steps they've taken towards this. As long as the developers themselves approach making the game with the right bigger picture mindset, we'll all be ok. That said, this isn't even a matter of 'meta'; it's a concern of balance: the potential problem isn't that 'using HH will be meta and that's bad' or whatever (to clarify, meta isn't really just a broad overarching category. HH has its own meta for example, so using in and of itself isn't inherently 'not meta'). It's that reducing an entire weapon to just its gimmick to boost other options devalues said weapon. Pocket buffing another weapon isn't necessarily USING HH, and there are plenty of things going for HH besides just buff sharing. Plus, since HH has historically been balanced with lower damage, and every weapon will hypothetically 'have access' to buffs, hypothetically the only weapon balanced for having HH buffs would be...HH, which would be fundamentally flawed by design. Now, BIGGER bigger picture, this won't be as much of a problem in context: some players planning to do this don't realize how tedious this gimmicky strat will be in practice. Lots won't bother for long and the ones that will will find that this may not even give a net benefit. Swapping constantly will inherently be inefficient unless done perfectly, and you rob yourself of access to a full secondary weapon option doing this. It's a little concerning, yeah, but honestly it's not gonna be a HUGE issue in the long run. Also, the optimization focused community doesn't have to test 91 combinations to figure out what's likely to be the most minmaxed combos: it'll either be just using 1 weapon or bringing along a Bowgun. If you've read this far, thank you for coming to my TED Talk lol
@@memoacuna6420 🤣🤣🤣 the funny part is that again, this isn't even a 'meta' issue, it's a balance concern. It's ok to understand deeper things about the game, really
I reaaally dont see how the 91 combinations will even dent the idea of meta lol. You optimise your main and get a weapon that adds some utility to that like para, ko? Maybe another element if the monster switches hitzones during enrage or amped state? Ranged if they fly alot? Poison for DOT? Most likely x + lbg will be the most used combo there will be anyway or just straight up lbg.
@@Lord-of-something right. If anything, and at the risk of sounding a bit gatekeep-y (which I usually try not to do) it kinda shows which side of the coin in this has a decent enough grasp on the topic to discuss it in the 1st place. It's not that hard of a determination to come to with a bit of thought to it, so to be assuming that it's some sort of big stumper with a nearly impossible conclusion is...telling
This pocket horn issue is the peak of trying to find problems before even trying it out. It's going to be annoying to keep switching to your HH just to buff yourself. Right there you'll filter a bunch of people that will be lazy to do it. Yeah, maybe it will be "meta", but the "meta" is also playing without getting hit and having perfect dmg uptime, so who's actually playing "meta"? only 0.01% of the players For casual play which is the far majority of the players, they'll just pick something that they're comfortable with or that will help them, such as picking 2nd Lance to break parts or to have an easier time if the monster is going crazy, or picking 2nd Bow/Bowgun for status or chasing the monster, or you can pick GS 2nd for wake ups, etc. This headcanon that everyone will be using only 2nd HH and it'll turn into a "pocket weapon" is pure imagination
They're upset because it'll be the clutch claw/wall-bashing mechanics. One way every hunter must fight. It'll be like Skyrim's Stealth Archer. Personally I don't care either way. I get to have dual blades AND Insect Glaive and largely play solo.
In monster hunter world, for the better part of the game (counting iceborne) you are not REQUIRED to use clutch claw/tenderize/wallbangs to kill the monsters, they were there to help you but they were never a required playstyle to rely on, then at the end of iceborne it really starts to show how meta those things are, in the context that if ur not constantly thinking about tenderization or wallbanging when the monster is not enraged then you will be at such a disadvantage that it will be extremely hard for you to kill the monster. whenever a playstyle is much more powerful than any other, thats a meta, now for it to be an actual meta it needs to be within a small portion of playstyles which are at the top of the top, in monster hunter world for example everyone likes to call longsword "meta" because you can counter everything and still do massive dmg, but you can compare that with having max dodge on dual blades and dodging everything while still dealing dmg or having max defense on lance and blocking everything while still being able to counter, basically all weapons have their type of meta which in turn makes it not meta since one of them isnt explicitly far superior than the others. (but using tenderize/wallbangs is a required playstyle since its FAAAR better to use it than to not use it) In mhwilds, they removed clutch claw (thank god) and added the new grapple to pickup items feature which is good, but then they showed a couple stuff that could be problematic like focus strikes and the dual weapon feature discussed in the video. For focus strikes, looking at only the damage numbers and the amount of hits that were shown in all of the showcases + events (which can be incorrect because capcom likes to buff the player on demos), we can see that bow and glaive insect have EXTREMELY powerful focus strikes being able to deal massive instances of damage multiple times PER wound, while weapons like greatsword have their dmgs limited by the angle and position you are using the focus strike on, the difference is so big that while discussing it with a friend of mine (bow main) we decided that i would leave all wounds to him since i play lance and the focus strike is pitiful in comparison. For dual weapons its the same issue thats discussed in this video, if bringing in a hunting horn for buffs is a way better alternative than bringing any other weapon then thats meta, as someone who will do something similar (im bringing my main + LBG for status procs) i can imagine the playstyle of relying on one weapon and using the other for quick buffs being one of the most meta features in wilds and should be somewhat addressed by capcom, by for example lowering the duration of the buffs if you swap weapons.
Only concern I can think of is if they decide to base the balancing off of everyone playing with horn buffs. But that doesn't change me not using it anyway
I'll have to disagree with this one. Being able to have a pocket horn allows you to use your weapon + buffs, while HH is already balanced around having buffs. Without them it's very weak, and is just a worse hammer. It means that HH will be weaker than most weapons - both in solo and multiplayer, and especially in multiplayer.
Tbh id say LBG is going to be a worse "meta" option then no? (as in oppressive/highly used) Status procs has always been one of the LBGs main appeals as well as being a mobile long ranged weapon. If you as say a GS player can now force proc sleep pretty quickly and safely, thats massive easy damage through TCS. Toss in a Smoke bomb and you might even be able to get a "surprise attack" right after the wakeup TCS. Then all the wounds this creates as well. Will "Attack UP XL" keep up with 2x wakeup TCS+Mega Bombs and surprise attacks? Sure its most likely a bit easier to use HH and keep a buff up for a bit. But if you want "raw speed and ease" does LBG seem a lot better. Pocket horn is honestly more appealing when already using horn. So you can run one w mostly support and then run a "All songs extened and Attack up" horn to keep the buffs from one horn going while doing damage w the other.
Why not just bring 2 hunting horns with a different set of buffs each? That would level the playing field again, no? I get the idea of a hunting horn becoming more like a potion or other item rather than an actual weapon, but a second hunting horn would be treated like an actual weapon.
@@s0me0n33 they're both a problem for similar reasons, where there are some weapons that will provide extremely disproportionate value as a secondary weapon and others that are, at least with our current understanding of how the mechanic works, completely useless to switch to from certain weapons with mechanical overlap.
@s0me0n33 the thing is sure if my main weapon is greatsword sure a bowgun could be better for sleep wakeup but that's the greatsword that hits let's say 3k then with wake up hits 6k but something like dual blades would benefit more from attack up large cus going from 300 to 600 for just one hit isn't that great when u do 600 in one second cause of how fast you hit mean while attack up large may make you hit 370 for every hit for 3 minutes will be better heck the majority of weapons benefits more with the buff. Like sure gs/bowgun meta ....there's still at least 11 weapons tha benefit more with hh and hh doesn't get much. I'd say a way to fix it is to give us some kind of performance melody that levels unlike the long sword that makes buff stronger that way hh gets better the more you use it and maybe you can accumulate something like elemental XXL with attack up XXL that last 30 seconds that you can combine with heavy hitting weapons to have a burst windows something like a saed or just stay hh. Something like this would make hh even better in multi-player like sure we can al just cast simple buffs but jhon over there he always does the ultra amped state buffs he's the goat
There's a problem in your argument. What are you are saying is that HH WAS always balanced with being the only weapon that has buffs. But if isn't the only weapon that has buffs anymore, then there's no reason to still balance it this way. There's every reason to believe it will be balanced differently - the bubbles are proof enough that they are at least trying to think about HH diferently.
Yeah I remember when this controversy initially started, and I thought it was stupid too. I mean, who cares? So what if you can buff and then swap to another weapon? It's literally no different than just having a HH in the party constantly buffing everyone. Do they think it'll make solo play too easy or something? If that's the case, why is that a problem? I'm not going to use the HH swap strat personally, but I could literally not care less if someone else wants to. Sounds to me like pure elitism tbh. "They didn't actually win the game because so-and-so reasons!" Having been a member of the SoulsBorne fandom even longer than I've been a MH fan, I've seen this type of elitism all over the place. "You used the Drake Sword at any point in time during your DaS1 playthru? ILLEGITIMATE!" "Eww, you summoned Solaire to beat Ornstein and Smough? That's not a REAL win!" "Spirit ashes make the game easy mode, so I've arbitrarily decided that nobody is allowed to use them otherwise I deem their victories false!!!!1!!" Yeah. Sh*t is really, really dumb.
People will invent new reasons to complain about Hunting Horn because they fear and distrust it, but will conveniently forget that Bowguns have had access to buffs and healing _since first generation._ I'm sure they thought of this non-issue when balancing the game, because they... have playtesters. 🤔 Ideally, this will mean that Hunting Horn sans Attack Up will _finally_ be on-par with other Weapon types, because it would be completely pointless to have to switch from the Attack Up L Horn to the higher Attack one.
i think it's a ridiculous notion considering the fact you don't just press a button to swap weapons. you call your seikret, get on, swap weapons, get off, buff yourself, get back on seikret, swap again, get back off almost no one is going to be giving up an *entire weapon slot* for *that*
The game ain't even out yet, how do you know this is what has to happen? I recall the hunter riding and using the weapon, so what's stopping Horning on the way to the monster, unless there's gameplay footage proving you can't as of right now?
you guys are clearly overlooking that last statement. it should speak for itself lol. the first time in MH history we get a second weapon slot and people are worried that it'll just get used as a buff slot no. most of us have multiple secondary weapons we love to use. i will be shocked if the meta becomes 'ditch your other weapon slot for HH buffs every few minutes'
@@giovannilamarrayou can't actually. You'll be mounted, yes, but your mount stops moving. You can't play note 3, which cuts out a LOT of songs, and you stock notes 1/2 extremely slow. Also, not every song lasts 5 minutes
I don't think the amount of combinations is really going to be an issue. This is a community after all. Just get 5 or 6 players in collaboration now efforts and the work has been divided considerably amongst a few for results
13:00 Technically we have (14^2)/2 possibilities because as Ryozo-san said he's bringing 2 hammers on his quests, so 2 of the same weapon is also possibility.
I really don't think this is a big deal. HH buffs lasts 90 to 180 seconds. 1. Unless you want to ride your Seikret 2. Pull out the weapon 3. Go down from your Seikret 4. Buff yourself up 5. Ride your Seikret again 6. Switch to your main weapon 7. Go down from your Seikret 8. Go fight the monster again The amount of time you waste if you use HH every 3 minutes is not worth it for the buffs. People are so concerned about "Pocket Horn" lmao. Only 1 to 3% of the community can utilize this effectively, esp speedrunners. You see speed runners run Fortify + Heroics where they faint themselves first, to proc fortify, then switch to a heroics set to speedrun. But this isn't used commonly.
Maybe before the hunt and when the monster is moving zones buffing with hh might give some benefit? Still if you cant play all the notes and the song on the seikret i do think this might be a net loss in damage overall.
@@Lord-of-something Yup. I can only see it benefiting speedrunners at the right hands. Like doing a 5-8minute hunt that only requires you to 1. Buff before the first encounter, 2. Buff when monster is going to another area.
I want to say some things, as a HH player i really don't see "pocket horn" as a problem even from the start of this, my argument is because people are lazy, do you drink every buff at the start of every quest? Probably not or sometimes like me, you just get tired of that 8s delay to get the buffs everytime you die in a quest, now imagine someone doing that every what? 2-3 minutes just to get 15-20% more attack, you'll have to: call your seikret, swap your weapon, get off the seikret, perform the notes and song, call your seikret, swap again, all without the monster attacking you, yeah it's going to get annoying really fast doing that just for the buff every time. Another thing is that i don't really think all of this was started by people that just use the meta and hate HH or something like this, at the very start i was kinda worried too but not as much, i just think people didn't remember that 98% or something of the player base doesn't play only the 'meta' and something that really made all of this was the lack of information around HH in wilds, yes you can perform on the seikret, yes you can make notes on the seikret BUT, the seikret stops for you to play the song so you can't ride around the battle playing it making you a easy target, while on the seikret you can make a really slow attack that slows down your seikret and only makes red and white notes, which later on attack boost L for example will use double notes and if you do a double note you will make an aerial attack off the mount, So it's not as simple to perform a buff in the middle of the hunt, you might as well use it as a weapon lol. And the last thing i wanna say is about the "Wilds will kill speedrunning" i don't really think that, i'm kinda of a tryhard myself lol but i mostly use HH (i don't force it on others of course) and i see this as a more complex way to develop a speedrun strategy, for example now instead of using one or two weapons, now i can try a lot of combinations with HH and yeah it's gonna be a pain to find "the best weapons against X monster" but i don't think people will try to find that, i think they will make their own strategies and go as far as they can, for example i saw a rey dau speedrun made by a HH user and he was using GL as a secondary weapon, he used HH the entire hunt and just at the end he used the new double wyvern fire to get rey dau to low hp and instantly capture it, will GL be "the best weapon for speedrunning" ? Of course not, and i really wanna see what new strategies people can create with double the weapons in the hunt, And of course i'm talking about the actual speedrunning community, not someone trying to force others to 'play the best weapon' online, and for me at the end i'll just use a pocket horn for my other HH lol, but yeah i think you should separate the people that actually speedruns the game for fun and the meta slaves online. Good video and sorry if i've made some mistakes, i'm still learning to write in english.
The one problem I have with this argument is late game sunbreak/iceborne require significant optimization to be playable. If the late game isn't balanced for optimization this is a non issue, but try fighting Fatalis with a shelling GL build and not use clutch claw. The amount of DPS you give up is significant to the point that the quest becomes impossible for normal people. If MH didn't have optimization focused DPS checks these arguments would truly be irrelevant, but that's not how late game MH is balanced. Of course, for 90% of the game this doesn't matter because you can slay most monsters with a potato build. Though if a pocket HH becomes meta then the late game dlc will likely be balanced around it because Capcom trys to make those final fights a challenge for even well optimized players. That unfortunately means trying to complete such quests with a suboptimal build will be a nightmare as it is for iceborne/sunbreak.
Besides very specific flights like Alatreon optimization is never "required". People have beaten fatalis with high rank gear. Sure playing meta might make it easier but required? Get out of here
@@lunasperidot8760 I'm curious about how proficient these people are you speak of to be able to pull off such an achievement. How many gameplay hours and training is required to perform such a thing? I bring this up because I'd like to consider if it's reasonable to expect that level of proficiency of the player.
It’s crazy that they think everybody or even the majority will actually bring hunting horn as the second weapon, but what’s even crazier is that it seems like Capcom got persuaded and promised they will make changes to prevent that.
Lol, this reminds me of how I 1st discovered you... I was looking for info on Bubbly Dance back when everyone thought it was a worthless skill & then there was you who explained what it did & how it could be used for making interesting builds... then that snowballed into me watching more of your vids to learn about other skills & such which was so much fun to watch & then try out. But, funny enough after all the crapping on that skill the "meta peeps" suddenly started to say Bubbly Dance was a needed skill pretty much for all the reasons you were saying it was a good skill to try out. So gonna love watching them all squirm over having to say Hunting Horn isn't a bad weapon to use anymore... got my popcorn ready for sure! That being said... I never even thought of using Hunting Horn as my 2nd weapon I was thinking a DB/Bow combo for short/long range since those 2 are what I'm comfy with & have been trying to master fully... guess I'm gonna learn how to use Hunting Horn lol... I'm so excited for the "bring 2 weapons" I can always have my DB's that I know & love but use that 2nd slot to try out all sorts of other weapons outside of the training grounds. Can't wait to see what you cover in your vids I'm so excited now \o/.
I think the issue is stacking multiple buffs on top of each other, normally a total of 4 hunting horns can go on a hunt, but because you can carry 2 weapons now, I see it as an unlimited amount of stacked buffs that technically won't run out
7:00 respectfully, this isn't correct, it's actually the opposite. The hunting horn would not become part of the meta, the hunting horn would be excluded from the meta. Why would you ever hit an enemy with a hunting horn if you could simply use it to buff and then stash it and use a stronger weapon? The issue here is the hunting horn is the only weapon that benefits you while it's in your bag. So why would you ever take it out of your bag, except to rebuff? The issue is not that people are going to use the hunting horn, it's that the design specifically encourages you to only use it for buffs, which is contrary to the nature of the weapon
If I had to have any concerns, those concerns would be that there aren't that many skills that transfer well to all other weapons (artillery is useless for Great Sword, for example), so the skills would have to be generic and not specialized to take the most out of one weapon. Or that there would only be a few viable weapon combos that could use the same set of skills. That was a question I've had since the first time I watched the trailer. But alas, I don't care much about that. If I can't get 2 weapons synergize with each other, I'll just use one.
Personally, I won't be surprised that for online multiplayer, the a very popular or one of the most popular strategies will be for everyone to have to a good rapid firing status ammo Light Bowgun as the backup. Or if its a coordinated group that at least 2 members will have a good status LBG as the backup. The group rides on their Seikrets, fire volleys of para shot. The monster is paralysed, everyone hops off and pummels the monster. Then back on their seikreits to do the next volley until they run out of ammo or the status build up becomes too high. What I really want to know is if I can bring two weapons of the same type on a hunt or does it have to be two different types of weapons. For instance could i bring two different element bows? I think that could be useful for multi monster hunt quests especially the target monsters don't have a shared element weakness.
the buffs probebly only last about 3 min or less so, biggest use would be using at whit gs sleep build for wake up hits. dont see a problem whit that. also its great that when playing online and i feel like playing more of a support role mid hunt, thats an option now.
I never cared about the meta and never will. Monster hunter is a game to enjoy and immerse yourself in, not treat it as a job. Based on what I saw in the early build, speed running will not be applicable in this game. Even Chris from team darkside said that he doesn't think hunting horn could be part of a speed running meta. Honestly, the content creators are speculating too much into something not important, and we only got to see part of an early build.
Speedrunning will always be a thing so long as people have a way to track their time and record their results. Though weapon swapping in general is probably not going to be the most meta playstyle (unless some monsters have really extreme hit zone or fighting style changes mid-hunt), since the whole mount/swap/dismount process is going to be a drop in your damage output unless the 2nd weapon can output enough to make up for it.
In my head, the main problem for the meta community is time. The real power of this strategy is gonna bank on a few factors. How much time does it take to setup HH buffs and then swap to the other weapon? Specifically, how much damage does your main weapon lose by dedicating the time to buff up? How much bonus damage will come from the buffs? This is a question of both uptime and raw power of the HH buffs. Total hunt time? If speedrun hunt length conveniently lines up with the buff timings, that'd likely be the area where the Pocket Horn strat works best. How many players? I'm fairly confident Pocket Horn is gonna be meta in multiplayer at the very least as the sheer gains of multiplayer will probably be enough to justify it. IMHO, it's wrong to try to say that a supposed "Pocket Horn Meta" is real before we've had time to play around in the end game and actually optimize. There's just too many things to think about and too many specific things we just don't know. Also I'm typing this like, a third of the way through the video so I'm hoping these things don't get addressed later in the video lmao.
Sorry, but I think your take is very delusional. I‘m not active on the messageboards, but I am on youtube. So maybe it’s different over there. But from how I know the community there’s a bit of misinterpreting going on. I’ll first point out from the community standpoint as I understood it and I’ll put my own opinion on the end. First off, you make it seem like it’s the dislike for hh that causes this debate which is completely untrue from my understanding. Actually this comes from two other points. One HH mains fear this makes actually playing the weapon less viable since you can get the benefits of the weapon without really playing it. And the more valid point is fear that it‘ll become the only „viable“ secondary option. Maybe aside from status weapons. As far as I can tell you only switch your weapon and not your full build. This most likely means you can’t very well optimize your build for both weapons. Leaving either a portion of the skill slots you have unused or not using the secondary option at all unless it somehow benefits your primary option. Speedrunning and the whole meta discussion isn’t dead at all. Since you can‘t actually use both weapons at the same time it’s still just a question of what weapon deals the best with a certain situation at hand and then if they can‘t deal with a situation, what secondary does it best or what secondary gives the most benefit to the first weapon. So it’s still decently easy to find the best options. Also it isn’t about finding the best weapon anyways for most speedrunners. They are trying to achieve the best time with the weapons they like. There is a saying. „Given the opportunity gamers will optimize the fun out of games“ And I‘m sorry to disillusion you here, but that will be a part of the games community. Also looking at other games having a lot of options didn’t ever hinder the meta discussion. I am someone who enjoys theorizing about builds and strategies in games a lot, to some extent even more than playing im the first place. This includes the meta, but also minmaxxing goofy off-meta builds. I used to be a meta slave myself, but I did change my way of thinking a lot when I was replaying the game with friends that weren’t as experienced. I agree that „pocket horn“ is a non issue. To really use it you‘d have to disengage combat to switch to hh, play it for a bit and then disengage again. Or stay disengaged while preparing the buffs. It seems way too much of a hassle for the casual community and potentially even a net negative in dps depending on how well you’re playing. Realistically, in terms of casual play if at all this might only see use in the downtime during area transitions, this doesn’t sound like too big of an impact and most likely doesn’t outweigh the benefits of having a freely choosable secondary weapon for actual use. Especially if we are allowed to use the same weapon class twice which has some other interesting implications. For speedrunners I don’t believe It would be worth to have a downtime in damage and it will most likely only be used in the beginning of a fight as part of the buff routine. Since IB had a limit on how far you could buff your attack, it‘s highly likely this returns. Which might also render the hh buff useless as you might already reach attack cap just with heroics for example. Additionally this game is multiplayer. And horn buffs don’t stack. This means only one pocket horn would be useful unless everyone coordinates to use different ones. On the term of relevancy for normal horn gameplay, pocket horn being a thing doesn’t impair the capabilities of the weapon at all, and the besides the additional uptime of regular usage, it also allows for constant application of support options such as healing which don‘t have a passive buff. Also with a melody like all melody effect extended like in world having a regular hunting horn player could keep up a multitude of buffs at all times even the ones potential pocket horn users would provide. And if two hunting horns is an option it could vastly improve the support capabilities. A cute little side note, pocket horn being useful might trick more people into trying and maybe even liking the weapon. For speedrunners I think it’s not more disruptive than the wallbangs or the wyvern riding is now, and if it really is such a big issue for the speedrunning community, they can just disallow it in the TA ruleset. Personally I dislike with how negative you are towards the speedrunning community. I think what they do in pushing the game to it’s limits is great. I also feel like discussion about optimizing the game and sets is a very fun and good way to interact with the game. The fact that it is perceived and pushed by some community members as the only „right“ way to play the game is bad. And I‘d love for some content creators to actively push against that narrative and to show off some optimized middle of the road casual builds without making it sound like they are of lesser value. Since set building isn’t easy and many casual players only use youtube as their source for builds, but you rarely see any buildshowcases outside the meta or cheese tactics.
Waaay to long comment. Tl dr Speedrunning and metadiscussion will absolutely be a thing. Pocket horn will be no issue imo, but the video seemed to misunderstand why it would be a problem in the first place.
I honestly didn't think of it at all lmao, honestly unless HH gives massive boost or somehow able to buff me very quickly without wasting 3 mins every 5 mins to rebuff i wouldnt bother bring it and probably only stick to one weapon for 95% of the time, just like what happened in rise where i never bring companion in solo hunt event tho its objectively better to bring companion.
Man if they're making the HH damage on par with others, then what's the problem if all weapons will perform the same with buffs including HH with buffed damage
Remember: The act of switching, buffing up and switching back consumes time- time that you could have used to deal damage. Even if you gain increased damage for a time after (which you also have to re-apply later), you are making a downpayment of time while switching and playing those songs- in addition to the vulnerable state you are in while playing. You can gain damage buffs faster with items. The only time that HH song playing will not hamper you like this is if you actually use the weapon and weave in your songs with your attacks- in addition to HH becoming more efficient the more party members you have. If all 4 people have HH, they each should have unique songs, otherwise it would be inefficient/redundant. Certain songs do not stack.
So I would say that I’m a somewhat Meta person. I do pay attention to it and often play roughly around it, i really like the feeling of knowing I’m doing X at the best efficiency or close to it. However I DO enjoy finding new ways of playing a Game or grinding a specific thing. And tbh the only time Meta somewhat matters is in PVP games but even then 80% of the time it’s way better playing what you enjoy since meta mainly matters for people in the top ranks or Esport players. and seeing the same 4-5 Agents/Hero’s/Champions or whatever every game DOES get tiring. But MH ?or any other PvE focused game? I don’t give a duck about what others play. Just have fun and play the game. And being worried about a PVE games meta seems silly to me. And people actually complaining about it are even sillier haha
It really depends on the person but if you get speed runners or trauma kids that do nothing but play monster hunter, they'll buff themselves take down the monsters quick and ruin the fun for everyone else, if your on multiplayer
15:41 they also tried this a lot in world and rise with update patches nerfing meta playstyles (like iai slash in Rise) and creating anti meta fights like Alatreon in iceborne.
I think I've noticed is that meta communities pushed back with anything that doesn't fit their idea of what the most efficient way to play the game is I do worry about hunting horn users why would the most useful in multiplayer cuz everyone might bring a hunting horn your damage could drop because you're horrible with that weapon and that's the thing I didn't even realize for each player their best weapon combination will be different than anyone else because everybody plays different
Self Improvement on other weapons would be busted is one thing i could see being an issue. If it became like world giving an attack bonus (not the issue), but the move speed and minds eye. That would pribably push the developer to push down HH, at that groups expense.
It's funny to me that people focused on hunting horn for this since my first thought when I saw you could bring two weapons is that everybody is going to bring a light bowgun for armour+demon shot, healing shot, paralyze, poison, sleep and anything else. That'd require people use a bowgun though so it was probably silly to think.
So a lot to unpack with this video as well as the community as a whole. In the case of the whole meta aspect I don't see it going anywhere. If anything I see this making it more aggressive. They might not take the time to test all 91 weapon combinations but once it's known how a weapon performs and what monsters it does well against they will be able to crunch the numbers and to on paper theory. From there it will ultimately come down to what weapon performs the fastest and then if it is detrimental or not to bring a secondary weapon or if they will just use the pure weapon for the fastest possible kill. At the end of the day bringing HH will always be a net positive which will make it so taking the 10 seconds to doot out a tune before running into a fight will be worth it because it's just like popping any other buff. The difference comes down to how long those buffs will last and if you make up that 10 seconds you spent playing the HH rather then attacking. From there we have to look at the bullying within the community both from the meta stand point and non meta. Rise/Sunbreak had a very large issue of people being kicked from sessions or hunts simply for owning DLC weapon skins and using them despite them not providing any in game benefit. We've also seen how heavily focused on a single weapon/play style the meta can get to where if you're not playing this weapon with these armor skills and these switch skills you're playing it wrong. It's not a far stretch to assume that the meta mentality that is already so deeply engrained in a lot of the community because of speed runners and all the talk of meta that it will come down to you having your main weapon and a pocket horn. If you don't have a pocket horn you're kicked from the hunt because you're not playing optimally. While I don't see this being a wide spread issue I can imagine it cropping up here and there. As for the speed running community themselves they will likely still thrive with adding simple restrictions as to one weapon only or one weapon type only in order to keep as few categories as possible while still maintaining a fair competitive environment. Ultimately I see the two weapons as a positive thing and I look forward to how much it adds to the game. As someone who loves Greatsword and Switch Axe I'm looking forward to exhausting the monster with my Swaxe and then Chopping some tails with true charges.
iixxion imitating these so called people: "what if i just use a bowgun, bowguns are just guns and monsters cant handle guns if you shoot from afar?" (not his exact words, but thats how i've interpreted this as) Me: "ROFL! have you ever used a bowgun cause your not gonna be a shooter on the sidelines less you got a good other player handling the aggro. Even then, your gonna find how often your pewpew toy needs to be sheathed as the beast is standing behind you! as far as the huntinghorn is covered; even if you can bring and use a huntinghorn, it doesn't mean your good with it! A good hunter knows how to spot a huntinghorn pro from the rabble as It's a night and day difference! doesn't mean you should discourage people from bringing a huntinghorn (unless you personally know that person and how they use the hunting horn).
My concern is what if I spend all this time and creativity making a build that perfectly suits my ideal playstyle, which i did in Sunbreak, which turned out to be ridiculously strong. Only to have people running essentially one of my weapons + HH and making my build look weak. That would take the fun out of my build because id have this thought in the back of my mind telling me that my build could be better but due to the fact im a pure bow user, i cant touch it.
only thing I disagree with is speedrunning being "finished", I think it's the opposite, it's going to thrive for years to come and make more way more dramatic strides. New records won't be shaving mere seconds anymore but minutes and minutes off runs when somebody comes up with a clever combo. And this will happen for a way longer time than any title before. There will be so many combinations to try to improve times with. Granted speedrunning is going to change and a lot of the people you complain about might be drowned out a bit more. And there will be a lot of "normal" or less prolific (noisy) players holding speed records for specific weapon combinations bringing us a new generation of speedrunners. TLDR: Speedrunning isn't finished at all, but it definitely will change.
I don't know, if the quest starts in the middle of exploration, how can there be speedrunning? Are we getting traditional quests? When do you start the timer for the speed run? Can that be manipulated? Like spending several minutes luring the monster to a preferred area before "starting the quest"? Wait, how will they abandon the quest? That is the most important feature in the game for the speedrunner, abandoning the quest.
@@hero_on_youtube I thought the most important feature was an ingame timer...Hehe, guess we will have to see how the gameplay loop is actually structured when the game actually comes out. I hear you, but I will reserve judgement for now. Pretty sure people will find a structure and/or make up rulesets to allow for a repeatable speedrunning . I don't speedrun, but I see the appeal, so I would love for everyone to get a great game where they can do what they enjoy, without being elitist or dickish about it, but I guess it's the internet. The only way to avoid that is keeping away from toxic places. XD
Forget it, these people don't actually know what speedrunning is. So long as you can do SOMETHING in the game, speedruns are possible. And you're correct, when a game offers so much player expression, flexibility and options to the player speedrunning will thrive on it. Do these people think Minecraft has so many speedrun categories for no reason? I'm not sure if it's the circle jerk of a comment section that this guy's channel is that doesn't even understand what a speedrun is or if the MH community is so illiterate that they can't understand a definition. I truly hope it's not the entire community that can't grasp simple concepts. Same goes with just everything the guy in this channel talks about, constant strawmans, missing the point, making stuff up or just being disingenuous. The people who watch him eat it up like he's making any sense. I mean it's insane to see so many people not understand what META or speedrunning is, it's like a breeding ground for illiteracy.
Meta or not if you want to spend the time to get on your mount, switch to HH, get off mount, buff up, get back on your mount, switch back to you main weapon, and get back off your mount to feel better about your fight, well by all means you are and should be more then welcome to do so. Me? Ima go bonk monster with big stick.
Hunting Horn buffs only lasts maybe half a minute or so and you can only switch weapons while riding your Seikret, so it would be highly inefficient and bothersome to use the buff, mount your Seikret, swap weapons dismount the Seikret, and maybe have just about enough buff time to land a hit or two.
I think double hunting horn is going to be really strong because you can get more buffs and sustain buffs longer. If people actually play hunting horn, that's a good thing. I love hunting horn.
As a Warframe player I can safely say that meta can´t be killed. So long a combination of ones gear does the most dmg possible that will be the meta. Testing 91 weapon combinations is ultra easy if you do it the nerdy way. Turn the hunt in to an Exel sheet for number crunching and start crunching. Then try out the top weapon combination with the highest dmg number. The current meta will be replaced by a new one. Personally I don´t think meta players are afraid of a big shift in the optimal way as they will only play the optimal way anyway. Warframe meta players enjoy the game by playing the meta. Not sure about the MH meta players, but I expect a tiny fraction of them do it too. An aspect that the video didn´t touch on is how some feel like their weapon will be used as a "stat stick" to buff ones main weapon. Witch is the exact thing the HH does in the previews games, but now I can do it myself and that´s a problem somehow. The Freaky Glaive and HH social dispute opened my eyes on how many people just tell you how you should be playing a weapon. As in how´s right to play and how´s wrong to play "their" weapon. To witch I have to say: "FUCK YOU! For telling me to be grateful for the presumable removal of helicopter." Capcom only cares for the meta for balancing reasons. Otherwise they wouldn´t had buffed/nerfed moves during the Sunbreak patches.
I have a gut feeling another wave of bullshit is coming when bow speed runners realise they won’t be infitely dancing round the monster anymore. I could be wrong about this, but seems like the changes done to coating are meant to force you to pause more, diminishing or maybe invalidating infinistamina strategies.
They’re gonna figure it out. There will always be a meta in the game I guarantee you, but you don’t have to use the meta so I don’t really see why it would be an issue either way. I have no problem with the pocket horn. I think it’ll introduce more people to the hunting horn. But I do think it’s a little silly to think that they won’t figure it out. They’re going to. Also, I’ve never felt any hostility from any of the meta gamers I’ve never had anybody get upset with me for not using meta builds. And I for one cannot wait to see speed runners in this game. I love those videos.
Historically, you really only start bumping into people like that mainly in the hyper endgame of MH where the likelihood of getting casually 1 tapped to death is high.
@camil3545 True, that's why I think it's such a a non-issue because they're so few of those people and so few of the people playing the game are going to reach the hyper end game. That's why this video feels a little unnecessary to me it seems more divisive than what he is actually trying to complain about. There's not that many of these players out there and the ones that are like that are only going to play with people who play just like them so it won't matter to the others.
I think this change (2 weapons) gives the option to check the possibilities of another weapon. It's hard enough to get me to leave Insect Glaive and try something else.
Elitist speedrunners and meta hunters are the problem. I can see speedrunners still enjoying finding the "optimal" way to do a hunt. Real speedrunners stay in their lane. They know that some of their strategies are basically crack-head straties to do things, and not everyone plays that way. Elitists are the ones who ruin everything. Elitist speedrunner think you should speedrun the hunts and elitist meta hunters will say you have to meta hunt. Meta hunters also aren't an issue. I kinda see myself as a meta hunter in the sense of "I like using the best thing in this category " type. I like the best element weapon for a certain type of element. I like using weakness elements on monsters. I like using the best weapon in each class for each damage type, but im not an elitist who thinks everyone should play like me. I dont get angry in hunts if someone is playing what they want. I can care less. Tldr Elitists ruin everything. Not speed runners and not meta hunters.
Hunting horn is gonna he permanently strapped to my back an its gonne require 2 other ppl to use me like an instrument for buff. Hammer for my other to counter balance.
Mh community when it comes to HH Old gen: kicks HH users for corner horn World: no HH users Rise: kicks HH users cuz "my identity" Wilds: kicks HH users cuz "my identity" Truly a cursed weapon lol
Only problem i could see is that every monster gets designed around players always having a hunting horn with them However i think the devs are actually smart enough to not do that, and would design them more generally around the fact that you can switch between 2 completely different playstiles, and elements out of the blue
THe problem I see right now is if we get playing songs on the seikret that they probably have the white note make a demounting attack so basically no song can be played on the back of it making it really half baked and I would think it's a shame that it doesn't work. :(
Its a little naive to think a meta wont develop when the game comes out simply because of the increase in options. Look at competitive pokemon. Every gen introduces new pokemon, new moves, new abilities, new items, and now new gimmicks(mega/dynamax). With every release, the competitive scene becomes more and more complex. So what do they do when faced with so many options? They fall back on what worked previously. And slowly build on it. Over time, the meta evolves from people incorporating new variables into proven strategies. Whatever the current meta is may not be the definitive best strat but if it works well enough, there's no reason not to use it. When the idea of carrying two weapons was introduced, the first thing players started theory crafting was LS or their main melee and a ranged weapon. Then as more info came out more people started thinking things like bringing HH for boosts. All we can do right now is theorycraft, and the meta is already evolving before the games release.
@@iixxion That's a good point. In PVP games, the meta has to evolve because there is no one true strategy for every other player. For every meta strategy developed, another will rise to counter it. But for a PVE game, everyone is fighting the same battles. Eventually, the community will come up with something that can deal with it all. I didn't really think of that. But eventually, the MH community will come up with that meta. It may take longer, but it will happen.
@@tetsuc4bra577 I think people who speedrun will come up with a bunch of ways they're going to say is "the best," but hopefully the number of combinations that exist can keep them busy enough that they can't go and be obnoxious in public.
my only concern with the HH being a sidearm. is self improvement. you look at people speed running with teams of 4 they dont always use a HH as the support, sometimes they do sure but they dont always do HH sometimes its SnS or LBG. but as i said, i do draw an issue with self improvement, because if you can pull out a horn activate self improvement then pull out say a gunlance. and start running around with the speed buff of self improvement. that is changing the way gunlance (or any other weapon for that matter) in a way that it was never intended to work. imagine HBG able to sprint around with the gun out. all other buffs, they're fine no issue what so ever, but self improvement should only be active if you have a horn in current use. and for those who are not aware, self improvement is a 10% dmg increase, minds eye and a MASSIVE boost to movement speed. HH with self improvement active is the weapon with the fastest movement speed in the game. but, its designed to have that buff active. and as the name implies self improvement only improves yourself, you cant give this buff to others.
1. Call Seikret (wait a couple of seconds) 2. Ride Seikret and swap weapon 3. Go down from Seikret 4. Self improvement 5. Ride Seikret again 6. Switch Weapon 7. Go down from Seikret 8. Go back to the hunt Do this every 2-3 minutes. I don't think it would be beneficial of solo players, but in a team, yes I can see that. But if you're playing solo, doing this midhunt would be daunting, a DPS downtime (if you're using pocket horn, you're definitely concerned about DPS), unsafe. We are also unsure if they will keep the World/Rise buff duration of 1-3 minutes (for attack up). When this was asked in a Dev interview, they told the interviewee that they have balanced it so that other weapons are in contention of being a 2ndary weapon. I'm not saying that they nerfed the duration, but it is highly likely. Can this be used effectively by solo players? Yes, but only the 1-2% of players or Speedrunners.
@@xTiddi once you get into the swing of things, you're not going to be fighting most monsters for more than 2-3 minutes, even if you dont kill it in that time its going to move from one location to another in that time. i have put a lot of hours into the game using HH. i only need to apply self improvement between battles very rarely is it needed during. again attack up, defence up. even things like the sonic wave or mobility ele up songs. none of these i think are "meta defining" but self improvement was never meant to be applied to other weapons. as long as it stays a HH only affect i have no problem with sidearm HH
I think most people will use 2 of the same weapon type but for counter a possible monster that change weaknesses in different stages, imagine Alatreon fight that everytime he changes his element we just change too for the most effective
Starting in MH World, we were allowed to switch gear in the tent. We used to start with a Mushroomancer build, get the buffs from all the mushrooms and switch to our normal set. The "gear changing in the tent" option carried over into MH Rise so we could do that there too. We could have four different players with Mushroomancer/Hunting Horn builds with different songs on each horn and get a lot of buffs to start the quest.
@@jpraczbr8413 They don't disappear when you switch weapons in Wilds, that's why some people are concerned. Unless there's more new info since Gamescom/PAX.
Personally, the biggest concern is Hunting Horn being reduced to the "pocket horn", where it is not even treated as a weapon, but rather just bit of utility get some buffs up when the Monster(s) decide to switch areas. At least enough so that the most vocal of the meta slaves will start to get pissed of at the people who "dare" to actually use it to hunt the monster, instead of just the "quick & dirty" buff-n-swap
The meta slaves already don’t use/ don’t want you to use the hunting horn. This changes nothing.
Well, as someone who tried speed running (and failed) lmao... I really don't think the majority of the community will benefit by using HH as a pocket horn. The HH buff only last about 90 seconds up to 180 seconds. Unless you can hunt the monster down in that time frame or at least 1-2 iterations of the buff more, I can only see this as a benefit for other speed runners. It will be used as a pocket horn, yes. But it won't be for like the 98% of the fanbase.
@@xTiddi 90 or 180 sec* 1.2 may be great.
@@DLinton I can't imagine that happening on a normal hunt tho. Do an 8 step process every 2-3 minutes, it ain't worth it. Esp if they lowered the buff duration -- this 180 sec is from world.
If people would only play hunting horn for the buffs, then they were never going to seriously use hunting horn anyway. If anything, pocket horning will cause many more people to try and eventually main hunting horn.
I just worry that HH will be further reduced to "just use for buffs then drop it" instead of it getting value as an actual weapon.
I doubt that'll happen. I anything, it'll make more people try it and maybe fall in love with it?
@@sephboxThis. So many HH mains try to gate keep their preferred weapon and it makes no sense. Only about 2% of player's in MHW used HH. That number jumped to 3.6% in Rise. Meaning that over 142,000 new plays used HH (based on percentages and sales figures for each game) but HH players acted like the changes in Rise were the end of the world. Now there's the possibility that even more people might try the HH, shock and horror. My first main was CB and I am constantly trying to get new people to try it because they might have fun if they do (it is not that complicated and can be a lot of fun).
@@randomdude4505 intentionally misunderstanding and incorrectly stating what peoples' concerns or issues are with something doesn't exactly make for a good rebuttal. and let's be extremely clear. the "goodness" or "badness" of a weapon is totally disconnected from the percentage of players using it unless the only way you derive joy from something is feeling as though you are included in a larger group.
they could make hunting horn do five times as much damage as it does currently but remove all of its actually interesting mechanics and the percentage of players playing it would still go up. they could make the most interesting weapon even more rewarding to play mechanically, but do 1% of the damage it currently does and the percentage of players playing it would go down. it is a completely meaningless metric to cite.
fundamentally changing a play experience into a completely different one isn't exclusively going to be rewarding someone who likes something already, because a person can like a weapon for what it is at a particular point in time, not just because it has the same name as a weapon from a previous game. not everyone is a die hard fan of being able to say they like a particular weapon type as the aesthetic, a lot of times that is informed by what the weapon is or was in a specific game or span of time, and it is totally possible to fall out of love with a weapon directly because of changes made to it. and you'd have to be a really dim sort to think that a player who liked a weapon a decade ago is being unreasonable for not unconditionally loving it forever, no matter what it is or becomes.
@@randomdude4505 I never said people should not use HH, also I liked the speed of HH on rise despite it being dumbed down and reduced songlist. I only want HH to be looked more like the hammer with buffs being an extra, not the only value it has
@@gmerc1333 that's a lot of words to say you are one of the gate keepers. It's ok, your boyfriend will still take you to the prom even if the new girl is prettier than you.
that depends how long the buffs stick, think about it, do you drink your drugs and skins every time you lose your buff? did you cap your spirit bird buffs before you fight every monster? not everyone is going to play the meta, and if they do then how does that diminish your enjoyment? it's not pvp, just enjoy the game.
Think about what you’re saying. Really think about it. You’re fighting a boogeyman. This guy keeps making videos attacking “the meta people” and their community but, can anyone actually point them out? Can anyone actually show proof this is even an issue? No one is playing like this. No one is saying this. The guy making all these videos keeps attacking the community over and over just because some people min max, or optimise, or have concerns about a stale meta by making some over the top boogeyman -or maybe it’s a strawman, doesn’t matter. He’s deliberately falsely exaggerating the position of his opponents to make people think he has more of a point that he does.
So the what you said and apply it to the reality that doesn’t really exist.
@@MysteriousStranger50 IDK dude I have seen way too many people crying about claw cuz they are forced to use it to optimize the dmg.
@@MysteriousStranger50I actually see a lot, more than you can imagine.
Totally agree, specially with the potions one, I usually do that every cart as a self ingrained "good practice".... but after grinding first GS kills with Alatreon (and currently going trough Fatty), where a cart could be less than a few minutes through and attempt with bad luck... applying potions every single time just became to annoying so I stopped doing that dozens of hours ago.
I'm one of the players that want to use HH as one of the 2 weapons in Wilds, but because I want to BATTLE with that horn, if I swap to it, its going to stay, and if I swap again and somehow there are still time for some buffs, thats a short lived bonus, not my objective
@@MysteriousStranger50 really easy examples of meta are wallbangs/tenderize/claw reset (once monster is stunned) ,these are absolutely must do's if u want to kill any of the later bosses like alatreon or fatalis where the dmg you do to the monster needs to be the highest at all times.
monster hunter wilds has removed those 3 meta things that players were required to do but then they implemented the ability to bring 2 different weapons, which by proxy allows another meta to be created which is the new HH/LBG secondary meta that consists of playing ur main weapon and then throwing in HH or LBG for buffs/status procs, they also added the new wound system which by itself isnt really meta but i can see it being meta if ur playing bow or insect glaive since those weapons have CRAZY damage on their focus strikes.
the video's super disingenuous framing of it aside (the decision to exclusively describe this as a problem possessed only by the meta-obsessed), the concern is less that something is changing, but whether or not what it's changing to is more or less fun. as someone who really likes hunting horn, i do not like the idea that my entire existence in a hunt can be replaced to a degree by someone just bringing their hunting horn and switching between it and their real weapon to benefit from the buffs WITHOUT actually playing the weapon. that's why it's so dishonest to describe this as people afraid someone will play hunting horn. the thought is that hunting horn as the secondary may provide a disproportionate set of benefits to using it as your secondary (without even really needing to engage with the weapon itself in combat, no less!) compared to the overwhelming majority of other available weapons, which will only change the avenue by which you deal damage and the kind of damage you deal.
Exactly this, I think the worry was mostly from players who main or just really like HH not wanting to see it reduced to a buff tool rather than its own weapon
Genuinely how is this a problem it will be the same as it ever was for HH and literally every other weapon: the people who like HH will use it and the people who don't won't and if someone deems it worth their time to be constantly switching back n forth between horn and their main for the buffs that's on them lol other people should not affect your enjoyment of the weapon
Or in other words, being afraid of people playing the hunting horn for the wrong reasons or in the wrong way.
This is a really weird take. You're not being robbed of some perceived sense of uniqueness or importance. There are still a ton of things that someone using this stray might not be able to do that an HH main CAN do, like knocking a monster out. Your moveset is still uniquely yours. You still contribute just as much to the hunt. The difference is, if they want to buff, they have to COMPLETELY disengage from the monster, jump on their Seikret, swap weapons, buff, jump BACK on their Seikret, swap BACK to their other weapon, and then re-engage the monster. All while being continuously attacked. I'm sure they are decreasing the buff lengths as well to compensate, so whether it's actually advantageous to do this or a huge waste of time is to be decided.
@@SynysterProjects "decreasing buff lengths to compensate" is sort of exactly what anyone asking in a Q&A is looking to inquire about, because while you're sure they did that, no one actually is sure of that yet. as it turns out, inquiring about these things that aren't really a given does have value and isn't just "meta slaves" asking nonsense questions in disbelief that things might be different (no one is confused about this), as it was characterized as in the video.
The concern is not that people will use HH. The issue is twofold.
1. If it is so much better than any other secondary option you are gimped if you don't use it to buff your main.
2. HH as a main becomes a worse option since its buffs are built into its balance already, while the buffs are a big plus for other main weapons.
I think the main way to balance is faster expiration or reduced effectiveness when you swap off HH. I don't worry about the meta too much, but if the balancing is egregious it can be a problem.
E.x. say your standard performance on weapon X is a 15m hunt and just adding HH secondary brings you to 8m. Is that too much? There is some point where the benefit is fine and some point where it's too much and that's why we have balance.
Also, no 91 combinations is not too complex for a clear meta to emerge. I guarantee most combinations will be completely predictable i.e. say LS can get a 10m kill and GS 12m, if you run LS/GS it'll be 11m. They don't multiply, it'll just average out. The exceptions will be combos that can effect each other or change your ability to deal damage in different phases of the hunt, like HH buffs or swapping to ranged when a monster flies.
It truly is dumb to say that a META can't emerge just because there's that many combinations. Like buddy have you played an MMO? Just because there's a lot of combinations doesn't mean there won't be a META. Like with that logic no MMO could ever possibly hope to have a META.
@@strateks9611 not to mention he believes those who engage with the meta are going to be super pissy because of it. I think more than likely what’s gonna happen is that a lot of people are gonna have more fun experiment and testing to see what the new meta might be
Yup and HBG might end up dominating as the 'pocket weapon' when you can just blow it's most expensive, limited-ammo load (wyvern/cluster ammo) and then just put it back into your pocket for the rest of the hunt. That's objectively going to be a super strong pairing with any weapon.
@strateks9611 even without looking at MMOs, the Generation games and their weapon styles exist, so examining more than the old 14 weapons is already something MH fans have done.
@@7F0X7Honestly, one of the ranged weapons seems to be the way to go for most cases of pocket weapon. Status, special shots, what have you: Once you've done what you wanted to with the ranger weapon, you can go back to another weapon. (Not to mention being able to do ranged damage whilst mounted will always be fun, no matter how unoptimized.)
Honestly excited for ranged players to be able to do more by having 2 weapons, making for combinations near the level of Tri's Bowgun system.
The only real concern for "Pocket Horn" Meta is that people see the HH as only buffs and nothing else.
Before this the Buffs of the HH was a big selling point for the weapon but you could not just play the weapon for the buffs because if you sucked at HH, only used buffs as your Primary Contribution to the Hunt you are an Ass.
Now it is sadly viable to do just that and switch off the weapon which sucks for People really liking the HH because it invalidates there experience with the HH to some degree.
Now I think the "Pocket Horn" Meta will not be a Meta at all because most People couldn't even be bothered to collect the spiribirds in Rise and that gave you a permanent buff for the entire hunt. So no i do not think people will start going on their seikret every few minutes to ride along the monster for 1 - 2 minutes trying to play all their songs before reengaging in combat.
The "Pocket Horn" Meta might not even give you better DPS as the time spent running arround tooting you have 0 DPS if you only play it for the buffs on seikrets Back.
Okay, you are completely misrepresenting what people have said on this matter here honestly.
The concern, however valid or not, isn't some weird hatred for HH and it being part of a "meta". It is that because buffs remain after switching, people are afraid that it the weapon itself might not get the recognition it deserves because people will just use it as a glorified buff stick and just use something else to deal the actual damage.
IF that is true remains to be seen of course cause the game isn't even out yet, so if you wanna talk about whether this concern is blown out of proportion? sure, but don't straight up lie please. Nobody "hates" the hunting horn and nobody is mad that people will use it more or not. Besides I'm quite unsure the devs haven't thought of this when designing the new 2-weapon system anyway.
@echoq7594 yeah, while it may not be loved for its personal damage, I've never really had people reject me for using a HH simply due to the bonus AuL being nice bonus that even meta slaves appreciate.
However, it changes if you got multiple Pocket Horns on a team, it makes the HH main kinda redundant or even a liability to the team's damage output if they don't buff the weapon to be on par with others.
@@camil3545 Nah. It's not like HH isn't capable of dealing dmg. Weapon choice in monster hunter doesn't matter, it's how you play it. It has been true since I don't even know when. And just like you said you never got rejected using HH, bcs people don't care what you're playing. As long as you play it properly. Liability is gunner who can't aim properly. Or lance who can't even tank. Or IG who styling around but can't deal dmg. Even multiple HH is viable. Let alone if the other HH is just staying in the pocket which only means they don't have to buff themselves and keep dps-ing instead.
Ofcoarse I'm taking a hunting horn with me. It's gunna be my main.
On a side note the meta made me decide to never play with randoms again. I like using horns with anti-things songs, ailment immunity, HG earplugs, wind negate, those kind of songs especially on harder monster people always cart to. One day while helping people fight vaal hazak (cuz I love fighting it) while using a horn with ailment negate. I got group after group where atleast 1 person said "why aren't you using attack up songs?" I said it's cuz people keep dying to efluvian and these songs will make sure they are alive to actually fight. They just kept telling me to switch horns... after a few days of that with different monsters, I just stopped playing with randoms period. I only now really play with friends or solo. On the bright side I got way better, still can't solo certain fights but I am way more capable. And I still like using anti things songs.
Mind you I've been playing mh since 3U so I'm accustomed to playing with randoms in every game before world. World did this to me.
The entitlement on this people to tell you how to play lmao. I'd start doing nothing out of pettiness, like who tf do you think you are to tell me to play the game the way YOU want?
Also that wasn't "the meta". There is no such thing as "the meta". People who actually play the game with the strongest options will always form their own groups since it's more effective. Even if they were to play with randoms they wouldn't care what other people are doing, they'd only care people don't cart, like you do, whether they do something about it is something else.
If anything, they're meta-slaves. That doesn't make them "meta players". You were playing with trash that's too concerned with being baby-fed buffs by a HH user. You just know they're kind of players who don't bring Health Boost and take no accountability when they fail everybody the mission.
@@Vulcanfauxthere’s a guy in the comments acting like these “meta” people don’t exist. I wish I could remember his name. You should find him and tell this story. I am completely unsurprised. I dabble in horn and I like the ones that get rid of blights etc. “sonic barrier” in Rise is actually crazy good at preventing knockbacks. Hella fun to play with.
i love the construction of “anti-things songs”
I HATE Meta in games.
Not necessarily because a "most effective tactic available" exists, but because meta chasers are OBSESSSED with it to the point of removing the fun from the game, not only for themselves but for others as well.
I remember when I used to play LoL I would build anti tank on Jhin depending on the enemy team composition, and I would always get flack for not using a specific item that lets the ADC dash forward. I would pick the Kraken Slayer, that grants bonus TRUE DAMAGE (bypasses all defenses) on every third attack, against tanks that had a crapton of defense and HP. It didn't matter that my KDA was 15/1/20, I would get bombarded with insults and several instances of my own team attempting to get an early surrender vote because "Jhin is trolling" for not building meta, instead adapting to the situation and winning!
So what if players have access to the Hunting Horn and can buff themselves!? That's what the hunting is for, and if you can switch between a weapon you're more comfortable with, what does it matter!? Monster Hunter is a co-op PVE game, there's no PVP to whine about balancing, just grab the weapon you like the most and play the way you see fit!
Meta chasers are such a nuisance to gaming as a whole!
You know what's great ? It's sometimes hard but we can just ignore the internet and play however we want, it's not because people saw one strong thing that you can't find an other strong thing. I've always seen HH as one of the strongest weapon! It might kill slower, but who cares if you're really having fun ?
That being said, i'll be playing my two favourite weapon no matter what, SnS & HH!
Why say you hate meta when you don't?
Balancing in a co-op or single player PvE game still matters; I agree that people can play the game with whatever weapons they want though
You literally just wrote an oxymoron I hate meta but pocket horn meta sounds good.
this will make it meta to bring a hh almost always. When going online will make it welcome to have it as a secondary but hh damage ain't that big why the hell you still hitting the monster with that music pipe get a real weapon out we ate already buffed. Them well have the greatsword bowgun meta and hh meta essential on every team bowgun unlike hh always top hitters so bowgunners aren't affected as much as a hh main.
But I guess meta is only bad when it affects you directly
Meta doesn't mean "most effective tactics available".
Sorry for being pedantic, but I wish this misinformation would die. It's not only a backcronym, the original word (metagame) is actually a far better description of what meta truly stands for anyway.
Imagine not needing the extra dash. They can't and its so funny. Ty for the chuckle, and cheers!
As long as they don't design the end game or any part of the game AROUND this meta I don't particularly mind, because I have zero interest in ever playing that. I'm sure folks are concerned this will mess with the identity of the horn, or make horn players obsolete, and it might in some circles. But honestly I don't think most folks are going to use that meta, or maybe they'll rig it so when you swap away from HH it removes your buffs which would completely counter the whole thing. I think the real thing that will happen though, is that set skills will prevent this from being a meta.
As for speed runners and meta builders, they're going to keep going. There's no stopping them. They will eventually find the most optimal way to get those numbers, AI probably will help speed that up, and speed runners will always exist, even if they're not as fast as other games, they're still going to keep track and they're still gunna keep going.
The issue isn't that people are using the hunting horn it's not they are only using it for buffs. Some people play hunting horn because they can get those buffs but because they are transferring to other weapon what's stopping people from abusing the buffs and just playing idk longsword. It's going to increase the number of people that are "playing" the weapon but not for the reason of actually using it. The horn is already one of the least plated weapons in the game and I got a feeling the the number is going to be even smaller now of people actually using the weapon as a weapon and not just a buff source. That's what people are worried about not that people will be using it but using it for only one reason.
Ofc it's upsetting because it will make all the hunting horn players obsolete now. All their identity is gone, because everyone can now do what they do.
You clearly don't understand the issue and try to play it of as if being ignorant is a good thing, while the issue is real and stands. Just like being able to heal and sharpen on the mount, while the mount is in no way limited in use.
Hunting Horn mains had a thing, one thing - they can buff themselves and other players. It was the exclusive thing that they were bringing to the table. Something to call their own. Their weapon identity. It is completely erased with that double weapon feature - because now EVERYBODY can do what they do, except they are stuck with a weapon, that by design - hits weaker than other weapons, because they had access to the buffs.
So your comparison of bringing a secondary hammer or secondary heavy bowgun makes absoluetly no sense. Because these other weapons don't have that unique "one and one thing only" that they were centered around. Changing from GS to Hammer doesn't change anything, nor does it matter if someone changes to hammer. That means we just have 2 ppl bonking on the head now instead of one. But if someone brings a horn when I am a horn main, especially if it has the same melodies. Well congrats to me, I am now playing a weaker version of hammer with a different moveset I guess.
So yea, it's quite obvious - if you only spent 5 seconds thinking about it, instead of being fucking condescending - what the issue is.
And you will see the problem when the game arrives. Just like with Seikrat healing/sharpening. Because, from a game design standpoint, it flattens out the game. Flattens the depth of the game. Why?
Because games, in order to be good, to have depth, they need "sliders".
Sliders for difficulty, sliders for complexity.
But modern monster hunters keeps changing "sliders" for "switches". So now, you can't have a balanced difficulty curve over the expierience, because, any hit that doesn't instantly kill you, doesn't matter.
Why doesn't it matter? For 2 reasons.
1. It doesn't matter, because you can call your Seikrat while grounded (invoulnerable) it will pick you up, and now you can outpace the monster - meaning you are basically unhittable for the duration - while healing up and sharpening your weapon. Basically reseting the fight (for you, not the monster)
2. It's not like you're gonna run out of healing - because you can simply go back to camp and restock at any point.
So how does this flat out the depth of the game?
Simple. The "slider" for difficulty was changed to a "switch" because now, for the monster to pose any real threat to you, it has to either 1shot you, or combo you to death without giving you any way of recovery (more elaborate 1shot). You are allowed 0 mistakes or you're dead. That isn't a good difficulty curve. There is no depth here. You either do it without a single mistake or you lost.
Good difficulty curve should allow developers to crank down number of mistakes allowed between "many mistakes" = easier monster, and "just a few mistakes" = harder monster.
But they can't do that anymore, because, as proven above, if you allow even 1 mistake, it is rendered irrelevant, by being able to just heal up on a mount with zero consequences for using the item and restocking in case you are really bad and keep getting hit all the time. So Monsters can now be always easy or extremely hard (nothing in between), because it's either "getting hit doesn't matter" or "getting hit means death".
Most people will not bring pocket horns just for buffs. Most people won't remember to take all their item buffs. HH mains will be appreciated, because, at the very least, the meta slaves who bring pocket HH will be free to play a secondary weapon they actually like when you, the HH main, show up in the lobby.
Your complaints about using the mount during combat should really be held off until you actually play the hard hunts that they will be designing around the sekret once the game launches. Being mad because it isn't old Mon Hun is useless. Just go enjoy old Mon Hun some more while waiting. If you want to try the game next year, do so.
I understand this, but dont agree with it. I see where youre coming from, since we saw the same issue in Sunbreak when it comes to the difficulty (if you know, you know). But hear me out... this is not a pvp game and nobody is robing nobody of anything by using the hunting horn like that. I know you want to feel special in your videogame as the 2% player who mains hunting horn, but did you ever thought that maybe this is a good thing and people maybe give your weapon a try? therefore increasing hunting horn players that now want to main the weapon and therefore getting more attention from developers to improve it?
I saw a different comment in one of his videos about hunting horn players being one of the most gate keeping players out there and by the look of this comment, it seems hes right. My point is, if youre a Hunting horn main, by then, you should already have mastered your weapon and be a better and more reliable hunting horn player, that people WOULD love to have on their party. A hunting horn player that mastered his weapon will always do more damage than some average casual longsword player, so i REALLY fail to see the issue here. Forget the meta. With this iteration they are giving us the chance to spice it up a little and try new things out. We will get a couple new monsters and the rest will be the same familiar faces with one or two new moves. The fun is on the weapons and getting out of our confort zone. Thats what monster hunters has always been about.
Tl;dr. I play Hunting Horn for the insane, concussive power and trick swings. I am not your prom dress.
If everyone takes hunting horn, everyone is being inefficient, and thus not meta. One hunting horn us the optimal number of hunting horns. If you main it, you are the one person bringing it.
To be fair, the seikret mounting after getting knocked down is the same thing as using a doing a wirefall in Rise.
i think there is also the side of the HH players themselves.
basically, people become very proud of maining and being good at certain weapons and some HH players might feel like their "identity" is being taken away and think "how dare they use MY weapon as simply a buff item".
its such a whiny sentiment.
I have used hammer and hunting horn because I like to bonk the monsters, and with the changes I'll gett to bring both on hunts so now I'm really happy
Capcom doesn't care about the meta. Ryozo-san always uses the Hammer.
My main concern is that people may start to see hunting horn as glorified Mega demon drug and not even use it as a weapon. Using a hammer just to KO, still requires you to go there, hit the monster, and use it as a weapon, using a cutting weapon just to cut the tail, still requires you to go there and hit the tail, Using a ranged waepon to shoot the monster from afar, still requires you to use it as a weapon. Now with hunting horn, some people may just hop on their seikrets buff themselves and drop the weapon.
So, i don't give a fuck if the meta shifts to using the hunting horn, as long you are using it as a fucking weapon. God i loved when my favorite weapon was the most broken weapon in the Monster Hunter Rise demo.
I’m upset about it especially since I’m very close to a HH player, I don’t like when players feel like they’re making no impact and HH players will start feeling like that if buffs will transfer between weapons. Arguing it being broken, yeah next we’re going to start hearing Sleep Dual Blades + high Raw Greatsword as the broken problem strat. To clarify, I don’t have a problem bringing HH to a hunt, I just think it should be done differently so primary HH players don’t feel pressured into playing something they don’t want to play because it feels difficult or impossible to play their weapon because other players overshadowing them with the same weapon
The real issue is that hunting may become a requirement. In this case: Capcom may take the hunting horns buffs into account when making the creature's stat pools. A more robust stat pool means harder fights. Even if the armor is made to keep up defense wise the fights would still be longer to balance the fact that you can carry two weapons into a fight.
Seriously, this is my first time hearing of this feature or this problem but did you think capcom was going to add a feature that they didn't consider weapon combos? Of course people would consider that the hunting horn exists and can buff you. They would also think that since they arent trapped into playing one weapon now that capcom wouldn't disregard the fact and do something stupid like make it a near requirement for later fights to carry around a hunting horn.
If the hunt were a straight-up slap fight, _maybe_ the *real numbers* would matter, but with all the other forms of burst damage, the _fair_ Hunting Horn buffs wouldn't make a noticeable difference.
@JanderStrahd Yeah, I think you are right. However I'm not sure capcom will view it that way. I'm personally more interested in the armor changes that will have to be made to support two weapons. And i wanna rain down from insect glaive into hammer bonk.
But it was the first issue and concern I had looking at the issue and capcom would have to take such strategies into consideration. Which, if they try to correct for, would mean changes to the monsters or changes to the weapons outputs.
People don't even use Demondrugs and Armorskin. And people do fine. Technically, Capcom "accounts" for all the ridiculous buffs you can already get, but you can still get sub-20 hunts with absolutely no buffs and playing loosely and stupidly. It's almost always never going to be a problem for people who aren't trying to compete.
I haven't followed this but I would personally be upset if bringing a hunting horn secondary weapon frees up a bunch of deco slots on my builds or make me build around guaranteed HH buffs. I would feel like I need to bring it just to equip more abilities I want and it kind of kills the coolness of bringing two weapons on field since I am locked into needing hunting horn. I'm not a meta player just enjoy optimizing builds on my own
didn't they say they were also changing how armor skills work?
People will demand of others to bring a hh for the buffs and a dps weapon for actually using.
Sooo if you just wanna play hh it is very likely other players already do the same songs as you do + more damage.
Therefore hh hunter that does use the Hh for more then just the buffis seen as a intrinsic downgrade for the team.
7:14 LMAOOOOOO THIS IS SO TRUE
And not only in monster this kind of toxicity is present in every game with a meta community.
The concern is that in previous games the hunting horn has no good traits to it other than the melodies, and even with melodies the weapon falls behind in damage or status buildup or any trait that other weapons get. The hunting horn is balanced around the fact it has buffs while other weapons are not balanced around it. The concern is that hunting horn will be an obsolete primary weapon because "why use hunting horn when I can use it for the buff and do actual damage using other weapons." I don't agree with the concern as much because they turned the hunting horn into its own unique niche with more supportive effects and a lot less downtime, when before it was just hammer but more micro and less damage, but that's where the concern is.
Yeah, but the concern is dumb because the horn is currently “obsolete.” It’s not in anybody’s META. It’s not like it’s included in anyone’s world record speed runs. It’s already more “META” to bring along another long sword or HBG than it is to bring a horn. If you are currently playing horn because it’s the “best” thing to do…you’re doing it wrong.
The 91 combinations idea is kinda flawed, they figured it out which weapon/style combos are comparatively meta with a smaller overall fanbase at the time and Styles generally offer a bigger disparity to your overall playstyle than a side weapon that you need to mount/swap/dismount to access.
Frankly, most weapon combos will probably be less efficient than just focusing on your main 99% of the hunt and just switching to a HH for buffs or LBG for status when necessary.
i don't disagree with everything your saying but your demonizing the speed running community and to be honest your being dramatic , theirs no one sitting there saying to themselves that they cant stand they don't control the meta , and oh no i cant test all the combos, people will and yes MH will change for better or for worse. personally I don't want MH to deviate to much from the older titles either , but even if it does i can still go back and play mhfu and 4u and gu ECT. if i don't like it then i can just go back, but to reiterate my point your making it deeper then what people are feeling yes its changing and I personally don't like that we can have 2 weapons now, sure the qol changes might be nice to some people but that doesn't mean you have to alienate the rest of the player base that doesn't like em. arguably they are the fans that have loved the games since the start. it does put a bit of a sour taste when new gen players want to change everything and make it completely different.
Luckily you can still play the game using only one weapon.
While I agree with the specific take at hand, the implications of this feature on „optimal/ most time efficient play“ I can understand the second weapon issue at it’s core and its effects on „weapon identity“ and ultimately gameplay variety in a long run.
Part of the gameplay variety are the attributes of each weapons and the unique challenges each weapon faces when confronting a monster. Said challenges foster a bond between the hunter and his weapon, which many people including me enjoy ( I like playing lance mainly I don’t care about many other weapons).
You could argue that you could still stick only with one weapon. Yet the truth is since it is a feature you as a player will be incentivized to use the second weapon specifically a different weapon.
Essentially it’s not unlikely that by giving you more options they might take away the variety since switching to a different weapon will be less of an actual shift in playstyle, as the prior limitations no longer exists. (Sometimes less is more)
I don’t think that more weapons means more gameplay variety such as you suggested with a simple mathematical equation, since gameplay variety is a subjective perception and not a mathematical problem.
Therefore I find your take on meta because of your fixation on that aspect becomes reductive and sadly misses the potential effect of the second weapon option on the core gameplay loop.
It would be interesting to see your thoughts on the other implications of the second weapon option on the core gameplay experience.
Speed running is still going to be a thing. They can run DPS numbers and just use whatever 2 weapons are in top. After that, they get to innovate with different combos to optimize for longer. But honestly I personally don’t care. I play MonHun casually.
The feeling si similar to when we didnt have hundreds of vídeos on each weapon, when playing a weapon didnt mean anything else than that you enjoyed it. You defined it really well, it was wonder, and getting better by playing and learning the game, instead of watching a thousand weapon tutorials on the most powerful moves. I really apreciate your vídeos, you are bringing back some of the wonder and enjoyment that monster hunter had lost for me
Interesting opinion...my takeaway? 20 minutes is a loooong video just to say "I don't understand the concern". I get that this channel's niche is kinda sorta rooted in anti meta/speedrunner/optimization contrarianism, and it's totally fine to do you with the hot takes, buuuut...this was all more than a bit disingenuous.
Capcom has absolutely stated that they DO take meta and game balance into account when designing weapons and game features. Literally in the interview you quoted here when it was brought up to them, they said that they'd be looking to make it so that HH as a secondary isn't the go to thing, and after getting hands on with the demo some this weekend I can already see some of the steps they've taken towards this. As long as the developers themselves approach making the game with the right bigger picture mindset, we'll all be ok.
That said, this isn't even a matter of 'meta'; it's a concern of balance: the potential problem isn't that 'using HH will be meta and that's bad' or whatever (to clarify, meta isn't really just a broad overarching category. HH has its own meta for example, so using in and of itself isn't inherently 'not meta'). It's that reducing an entire weapon to just its gimmick to boost other options devalues said weapon. Pocket buffing another weapon isn't necessarily USING HH, and there are plenty of things going for HH besides just buff sharing. Plus, since HH has historically been balanced with lower damage, and every weapon will hypothetically 'have access' to buffs, hypothetically the only weapon balanced for having HH buffs would be...HH, which would be fundamentally flawed by design.
Now, BIGGER bigger picture, this won't be as much of a problem in context: some players planning to do this don't realize how tedious this gimmicky strat will be in practice. Lots won't bother for long and the ones that will will find that this may not even give a net benefit. Swapping constantly will inherently be inefficient unless done perfectly, and you rob yourself of access to a full secondary weapon option doing this. It's a little concerning, yeah, but honestly it's not gonna be a HUGE issue in the long run.
Also, the optimization focused community doesn't have to test 91 combinations to figure out what's likely to be the most minmaxed combos: it'll either be just using 1 weapon or bringing along a Bowgun. If you've read this far, thank you for coming to my TED Talk lol
Go home meta lover! Go preech meta somewhere else!
@@memoacuna6420 🤣🤣🤣 the funny part is that again, this isn't even a 'meta' issue, it's a balance concern. It's ok to understand deeper things about the game, really
I reaaally dont see how the 91 combinations will even dent the idea of meta lol. You optimise your main and get a weapon that adds some utility to that like para, ko? Maybe another element if the monster switches hitzones during enrage or amped state? Ranged if they fly alot? Poison for DOT?
Most likely x + lbg will be the most used combo there will be anyway or just straight up lbg.
@@Lord-of-something right. If anything, and at the risk of sounding a bit gatekeep-y (which I usually try not to do) it kinda shows which side of the coin in this has a decent enough grasp on the topic to discuss it in the 1st place. It's not that hard of a determination to come to with a bit of thought to it, so to be assuming that it's some sort of big stumper with a nearly impossible conclusion is...telling
This pocket horn issue is the peak of trying to find problems before even trying it out. It's going to be annoying to keep switching to your HH just to buff yourself. Right there you'll filter a bunch of people that will be lazy to do it. Yeah, maybe it will be "meta", but the "meta" is also playing without getting hit and having perfect dmg uptime, so who's actually playing "meta"? only 0.01% of the players
For casual play which is the far majority of the players, they'll just pick something that they're comfortable with or that will help them, such as picking 2nd Lance to break parts or to have an easier time if the monster is going crazy, or picking 2nd Bow/Bowgun for status or chasing the monster, or you can pick GS 2nd for wake ups, etc. This headcanon that everyone will be using only 2nd HH and it'll turn into a "pocket weapon" is pure imagination
They're upset because it'll be the clutch claw/wall-bashing mechanics. One way every hunter must fight.
It'll be like Skyrim's Stealth Archer.
Personally I don't care either way. I get to have dual blades AND Insect Glaive and largely play solo.
It won't though, so it's fine👍🏾
They're allergic to the thought of other players having more fun than them
In monster hunter world, for the better part of the game (counting iceborne) you are not REQUIRED to use clutch claw/tenderize/wallbangs to kill the monsters, they were there to help you but they were never a required playstyle to rely on, then at the end of iceborne it really starts to show how meta those things are, in the context that if ur not constantly thinking about tenderization or wallbanging when the monster is not enraged then you will be at such a disadvantage that it will be extremely hard for you to kill the monster.
whenever a playstyle is much more powerful than any other, thats a meta, now for it to be an actual meta it needs to be within a small portion of playstyles which are at the top of the top, in monster hunter world for example everyone likes to call longsword "meta" because you can counter everything and still do massive dmg, but you can compare that with having max dodge on dual blades and dodging everything while still dealing dmg or having max defense on lance and blocking everything while still being able to counter, basically all weapons have their type of meta which in turn makes it not meta since one of them isnt explicitly far superior than the others. (but using tenderize/wallbangs is a required playstyle since its FAAAR better to use it than to not use it)
In mhwilds, they removed clutch claw (thank god) and added the new grapple to pickup items feature which is good, but then they showed a couple stuff that could be problematic like focus strikes and the dual weapon feature discussed in the video.
For focus strikes, looking at only the damage numbers and the amount of hits that were shown in all of the showcases + events (which can be incorrect because capcom likes to buff the player on demos), we can see that bow and glaive insect have EXTREMELY powerful focus strikes being able to deal massive instances of damage multiple times PER wound, while weapons like greatsword have their dmgs limited by the angle and position you are using the focus strike on, the difference is so big that while discussing it with a friend of mine (bow main) we decided that i would leave all wounds to him since i play lance and the focus strike is pitiful in comparison.
For dual weapons its the same issue thats discussed in this video, if bringing in a hunting horn for buffs is a way better alternative than bringing any other weapon then thats meta, as someone who will do something similar (im bringing my main + LBG for status procs) i can imagine the playstyle of relying on one weapon and using the other for quick buffs being one of the most meta features in wilds and should be somewhat addressed by capcom, by for example lowering the duration of the buffs if you swap weapons.
Only concern I can think of is if they decide to base the balancing off of everyone playing with horn buffs. But that doesn't change me not using it anyway
The time to swap would probably negate the dps
14:00 thats a bit exaggerated isnt it? Look at mhgu, it has many style, weapon and HA combination, it turns out fine.
it's okay, the roleplayers will just make a house rule that discourages interaction with the weapon swap system.
YES! Good call! Rule #2174: No weapon swapping during the run.
I'll have to disagree with this one. Being able to have a pocket horn allows you to use your weapon + buffs, while HH is already balanced around having buffs. Without them it's very weak, and is just a worse hammer. It means that HH will be weaker than most weapons - both in solo and multiplayer, and especially in multiplayer.
Tbh id say LBG is going to be a worse "meta" option then no? (as in oppressive/highly used)
Status procs has always been one of the LBGs main appeals as well as being a mobile long ranged weapon.
If you as say a GS player can now force proc sleep pretty quickly and safely, thats massive easy damage through TCS. Toss in a Smoke bomb and you might even be able to get a "surprise attack" right after the wakeup TCS. Then all the wounds this creates as well.
Will "Attack UP XL" keep up with 2x wakeup TCS+Mega Bombs and surprise attacks?
Sure its most likely a bit easier to use HH and keep a buff up for a bit. But if you want "raw speed and ease" does LBG seem a lot better.
Pocket horn is honestly more appealing when already using horn. So you can run one w mostly support and then run a "All songs extened and Attack up" horn to keep the buffs from one horn going while doing damage w the other.
Why not just bring 2 hunting horns with a different set of buffs each? That would level the playing field again, no? I get the idea of a hunting horn becoming more like a potion or other item rather than an actual weapon, but a second hunting horn would be treated like an actual weapon.
@@s0me0n33 they're both a problem for similar reasons, where there are some weapons that will provide extremely disproportionate value as a secondary weapon and others that are, at least with our current understanding of how the mechanic works, completely useless to switch to from certain weapons with mechanical overlap.
@s0me0n33 the thing is sure if my main weapon is greatsword sure a bowgun could be better for sleep wakeup but that's the greatsword that hits let's say 3k then with wake up hits 6k but something like dual blades would benefit more from attack up large cus going from 300 to 600 for just one hit isn't that great when u do 600 in one second cause of how fast you hit mean while attack up large may make you hit 370 for every hit for 3 minutes will be better heck the majority of weapons benefits more with the buff. Like sure gs/bowgun meta ....there's still at least 11 weapons tha benefit more with hh and hh doesn't get much. I'd say a way to fix it is to give us some kind of performance melody that levels unlike the long sword that makes buff stronger that way hh gets better the more you use it and maybe you can accumulate something like elemental XXL with attack up XXL that last 30 seconds that you can combine with heavy hitting weapons to have a burst windows something like a saed or just stay hh. Something like this would make hh even better in multi-player like sure we can al just cast simple buffs but jhon over there he always does the ultra amped state buffs he's the goat
There's a problem in your argument. What are you are saying is that HH WAS always balanced with being the only weapon that has buffs. But if isn't the only weapon that has buffs anymore, then there's no reason to still balance it this way. There's every reason to believe it will be balanced differently - the bubbles are proof enough that they are at least trying to think about HH diferently.
Yeah I remember when this controversy initially started, and I thought it was stupid too. I mean, who cares? So what if you can buff and then swap to another weapon? It's literally no different than just having a HH in the party constantly buffing everyone. Do they think it'll make solo play too easy or something? If that's the case, why is that a problem? I'm not going to use the HH swap strat personally, but I could literally not care less if someone else wants to. Sounds to me like pure elitism tbh. "They didn't actually win the game because so-and-so reasons!" Having been a member of the SoulsBorne fandom even longer than I've been a MH fan, I've seen this type of elitism all over the place. "You used the Drake Sword at any point in time during your DaS1 playthru? ILLEGITIMATE!" "Eww, you summoned Solaire to beat Ornstein and Smough? That's not a REAL win!"
"Spirit ashes make the game easy mode, so I've arbitrarily decided that nobody is allowed to use them otherwise I deem their victories false!!!!1!!"
Yeah. Sh*t is really, really dumb.
People will invent new reasons to complain about Hunting Horn because they fear and distrust it, but will conveniently forget that Bowguns have had access to buffs and healing _since first generation._
I'm sure they thought of this non-issue when balancing the game, because they... have playtesters. 🤔 Ideally, this will mean that Hunting Horn sans Attack Up will _finally_ be on-par with other Weapon types, because it would be completely pointless to have to switch from the Attack Up L Horn to the higher Attack one.
i think it's a ridiculous notion considering the fact you don't just press a button to swap weapons. you call your seikret, get on, swap weapons, get off, buff yourself, get back on seikret, swap again, get back off
almost no one is going to be giving up an *entire weapon slot* for *that*
You can buff when saddled on the Seikret, buffs lasts 5 minutes , you can also buff drom saddle while riding toward the monster . it's not that hard
The game ain't even out yet, how do you know this is what has to happen? I recall the hunter riding and using the weapon, so what's stopping Horning on the way to the monster, unless there's gameplay footage proving you can't as of right now?
Lmao, that sounds like a lot of trouble to you? Lmfaooo.
you guys are clearly overlooking that last statement. it should speak for itself lol. the first time in MH history we get a second weapon slot and people are worried that it'll just get used as a buff slot
no. most of us have multiple secondary weapons we love to use. i will be shocked if the meta becomes 'ditch your other weapon slot for HH buffs every few minutes'
@@giovannilamarrayou can't actually. You'll be mounted, yes, but your mount stops moving. You can't play note 3, which cuts out a LOT of songs, and you stock notes 1/2 extremely slow. Also, not every song lasts 5 minutes
I don't think the amount of combinations is really going to be an issue. This is a community after all. Just get 5 or 6 players in collaboration now efforts and the work has been divided considerably amongst a few for results
13:00 Technically we have (14^2)/2 possibilities because as Ryozo-san said he's bringing 2 hammers on his quests, so 2 of the same weapon is also possibility.
I really don't think this is a big deal. HH buffs lasts 90 to 180 seconds.
1. Unless you want to ride your Seikret
2. Pull out the weapon
3. Go down from your Seikret
4. Buff yourself up
5. Ride your Seikret again
6. Switch to your main weapon
7. Go down from your Seikret
8. Go fight the monster again
The amount of time you waste if you use HH every 3 minutes is not worth it for the buffs. People are so concerned about "Pocket Horn" lmao. Only 1 to 3% of the community can utilize this effectively, esp speedrunners. You see speed runners run Fortify + Heroics where they faint themselves first, to proc fortify, then switch to a heroics set to speedrun. But this isn't used commonly.
Maybe before the hunt and when the monster is moving zones buffing with hh might give some benefit? Still if you cant play all the notes and the song on the seikret i do think this might be a net loss in damage overall.
@@Lord-of-something Yup. I can only see it benefiting speedrunners at the right hands. Like doing a 5-8minute hunt that only requires you to 1. Buff before the first encounter, 2. Buff when monster is going to another area.
I'm gonna bring 2 horns so I can use all the buffs. Big Doot hours I'm excited!
I want to say some things, as a HH player i really don't see "pocket horn" as a problem even from the start of this, my argument is because people are lazy, do you drink every buff at the start of every quest? Probably not or sometimes like me, you just get tired of that 8s delay to get the buffs everytime you die in a quest, now imagine someone doing that every what? 2-3 minutes just to get 15-20% more attack, you'll have to: call your seikret, swap your weapon, get off the seikret, perform the notes and song, call your seikret, swap again, all without the monster attacking you, yeah it's going to get annoying really fast doing that just for the buff every time.
Another thing is that i don't really think all of this was started by people that just use the meta and hate HH or something like this, at the very start i was kinda worried too but not as much, i just think people didn't remember that 98% or something of the player base doesn't play only the 'meta' and something that really made all of this was the lack of information around HH in wilds, yes you can perform on the seikret, yes you can make notes on the seikret BUT, the seikret stops for you to play the song so you can't ride around the battle playing it making you a easy target, while on the seikret you can make a really slow attack that slows down your seikret and only makes red and white notes, which later on attack boost L for example will use double notes and if you do a double note you will make an aerial attack off the mount, So it's not as simple to perform a buff in the middle of the hunt, you might as well use it as a weapon lol.
And the last thing i wanna say is about the "Wilds will kill speedrunning" i don't really think that, i'm kinda of a tryhard myself lol but i mostly use HH (i don't force it on others of course) and i see this as a more complex way to develop a speedrun strategy, for example now instead of using one or two weapons, now i can try a lot of combinations with HH and yeah it's gonna be a pain to find "the best weapons against X monster" but i don't think people will try to find that, i think they will make their own strategies and go as far as they can, for example i saw a rey dau speedrun made by a HH user and he was using GL as a secondary weapon, he used HH the entire hunt and just at the end he used the new double wyvern fire to get rey dau to low hp and instantly capture it, will GL be "the best weapon for speedrunning" ? Of course not, and i really wanna see what new strategies people can create with double the weapons in the hunt, And of course i'm talking about the actual speedrunning community, not someone trying to force others to 'play the best weapon' online, and for me at the end i'll just use a pocket horn for my other HH lol, but yeah i think you should separate the people that actually speedruns the game for fun and the meta slaves online.
Good video and sorry if i've made some mistakes, i'm still learning to write in english.
The one problem I have with this argument is late game sunbreak/iceborne require significant optimization to be playable. If the late game isn't balanced for optimization this is a non issue, but try fighting Fatalis with a shelling GL build and not use clutch claw. The amount of DPS you give up is significant to the point that the quest becomes impossible for normal people.
If MH didn't have optimization focused DPS checks these arguments would truly be irrelevant, but that's not how late game MH is balanced. Of course, for 90% of the game this doesn't matter because you can slay most monsters with a potato build. Though if a pocket HH becomes meta then the late game dlc will likely be balanced around it because Capcom trys to make those final fights a challenge for even well optimized players. That unfortunately means trying to complete such quests with a suboptimal build will be a nightmare as it is for iceborne/sunbreak.
Besides very specific flights like Alatreon optimization is never "required". People have beaten fatalis with high rank gear. Sure playing meta might make it easier but required? Get out of here
@@lunasperidot8760 I'm curious about how proficient these people are you speak of to be able to pull off such an achievement. How many gameplay hours and training is required to perform such a thing?
I bring this up because I'd like to consider if it's reasonable to expect that level of proficiency of the player.
11:22 they nerfed cluster bomb playstyle in World right? I expect things to get nerfed this time around too for whatever reason.
I'm just like damn.....the Hunting Horn usage is gonna get super inflated, lmao.
It’s crazy that they think everybody or even the majority will actually bring hunting horn as the second weapon, but what’s even crazier is that it seems like Capcom got persuaded and promised they will make changes to prevent that.
Ha! Jokes on you, ill be playing with 2 hunting horns the entire fight!
“You have 14 X 13 different weapon combinations so 91”
Me and my 2 different Dual Blades… 😈
QUAD BLADES UNITE!!
Lol, this reminds me of how I 1st discovered you... I was looking for info on Bubbly Dance back when everyone thought it was a worthless skill & then there was you who explained what it did & how it could be used for making interesting builds... then that snowballed into me watching more of your vids to learn about other skills & such which was so much fun to watch & then try out.
But, funny enough after all the crapping on that skill the "meta peeps" suddenly started to say Bubbly Dance was a needed skill pretty much for all the reasons you were saying it was a good skill to try out. So gonna love watching them all squirm over having to say Hunting Horn isn't a bad weapon to use anymore... got my popcorn ready for sure!
That being said... I never even thought of using Hunting Horn as my 2nd weapon I was thinking a DB/Bow combo for short/long range since those 2 are what I'm comfy with & have been trying to master fully... guess I'm gonna learn how to use Hunting Horn lol... I'm so excited for the "bring 2 weapons" I can always have my DB's that I know & love but use that 2nd slot to try out all sorts of other weapons outside of the training grounds. Can't wait to see what you cover in your vids I'm so excited now \o/.
I think the issue is stacking multiple buffs on top of each other, normally a total of 4 hunting horns can go on a hunt, but because you can carry 2 weapons now, I see it as an unlimited amount of stacked buffs that technically won't run out
7:00 respectfully, this isn't correct, it's actually the opposite. The hunting horn would not become part of the meta, the hunting horn would be excluded from the meta. Why would you ever hit an enemy with a hunting horn if you could simply use it to buff and then stash it and use a stronger weapon?
The issue here is the hunting horn is the only weapon that benefits you while it's in your bag. So why would you ever take it out of your bag, except to rebuff? The issue is not that people are going to use the hunting horn, it's that the design specifically encourages you to only use it for buffs, which is contrary to the nature of the weapon
I can't fathom caring about the hunting horn secondary weapon this much, especially because the game won't be balanced around it.
If I had to have any concerns, those concerns would be that there aren't that many skills that transfer well to all other weapons (artillery is useless for Great Sword, for example), so the skills would have to be generic and not specialized to take the most out of one weapon.
Or that there would only be a few viable weapon combos that could use the same set of skills.
That was a question I've had since the first time I watched the trailer.
But alas, I don't care much about that.
If I can't get 2 weapons synergize with each other, I'll just use one.
Personally, I won't be surprised that for online multiplayer, the a very popular or one of the most popular strategies will be for everyone to have to a good rapid firing status ammo Light Bowgun as the backup. Or if its a coordinated group that at least 2 members will have a good status LBG as the backup.
The group rides on their Seikrets, fire volleys of para shot. The monster is paralysed, everyone hops off and pummels the monster. Then back on their seikreits to do the next volley until they run out of ammo or the status build up becomes too high.
What I really want to know is if I can bring two weapons of the same type on a hunt or does it have to be two different types of weapons. For instance could i bring two different element bows? I think that could be useful for multi monster hunt quests especially the target monsters don't have a shared element weakness.
you can bring two of the same type, it's been confirmed from people who played it at the most recent show
the buffs probebly only last about 3 min or less so, biggest use would be using at whit gs sleep build for wake up hits.
dont see a problem whit that.
also its great that when playing online and i feel like playing more of a support role mid hunt, thats an option now.
I never cared about the meta and never will. Monster hunter is a game to enjoy and immerse yourself in, not treat it as a job.
Based on what I saw in the early build, speed running will not be applicable in this game. Even Chris from team darkside said that he doesn't think hunting horn could be part of a speed running meta.
Honestly, the content creators are speculating too much into something not important, and we only got to see part of an early build.
Speedrunning will always be a thing so long as people have a way to track their time and record their results.
Though weapon swapping in general is probably not going to be the most meta playstyle (unless some monsters have really extreme hit zone or fighting style changes mid-hunt), since the whole mount/swap/dismount process is going to be a drop in your damage output unless the 2nd weapon can output enough to make up for it.
I have a question, when u only change weapon, and u Focus on an other weapon. U will have Not the right armor setup to use the hunting horn right?
In my head, the main problem for the meta community is time. The real power of this strategy is gonna bank on a few factors.
How much time does it take to setup HH buffs and then swap to the other weapon? Specifically, how much damage does your main weapon lose by dedicating the time to buff up?
How much bonus damage will come from the buffs? This is a question of both uptime and raw power of the HH buffs.
Total hunt time? If speedrun hunt length conveniently lines up with the buff timings, that'd likely be the area where the Pocket Horn strat works best.
How many players? I'm fairly confident Pocket Horn is gonna be meta in multiplayer at the very least as the sheer gains of multiplayer will probably be enough to justify it.
IMHO, it's wrong to try to say that a supposed "Pocket Horn Meta" is real before we've had time to play around in the end game and actually optimize. There's just too many things to think about and too many specific things we just don't know.
Also I'm typing this like, a third of the way through the video so I'm hoping these things don't get addressed later in the video lmao.
Sorry, but I think your take is very delusional. I‘m not active on the messageboards, but I am on youtube. So maybe it’s different over there. But from how I know the community there’s a bit of misinterpreting going on. I’ll first point out from the community standpoint as I understood it and I’ll put my own opinion on the end.
First off, you make it seem like it’s the dislike for hh that causes this debate which is completely untrue from my understanding. Actually this comes from two other points. One HH mains fear this makes actually playing the weapon less viable since you can get the benefits of the weapon without really playing it. And the more valid point is fear that it‘ll become the only „viable“ secondary option. Maybe aside from status weapons. As far as I can tell you only switch your weapon and not your full build. This most likely means you can’t very well optimize your build for both weapons. Leaving either a portion of the skill slots you have unused or not using the secondary option at all unless it somehow benefits your primary option.
Speedrunning and the whole meta discussion isn’t dead at all. Since you can‘t actually use both weapons at the same time it’s still just a question of what weapon deals the best with a certain situation at hand and then if they can‘t deal with a situation, what secondary does it best or what secondary gives the most benefit to the first weapon. So it’s still decently easy to find the best options. Also it isn’t about finding the best weapon anyways for most speedrunners. They are trying to achieve the best time with the weapons they like. There is a saying. „Given the opportunity gamers will optimize the fun out of games“ And I‘m sorry to disillusion you here, but that will be a part of the games community. Also looking at other games having a lot of options didn’t ever hinder the meta discussion.
I am someone who enjoys theorizing about builds and strategies in games a lot, to some extent even more than playing im the first place. This includes the meta, but also minmaxxing goofy off-meta builds. I used to be a meta slave myself, but I did change my way of thinking a lot when I was replaying the game with friends that weren’t as experienced. I agree that „pocket horn“ is a non issue. To really use it you‘d have to disengage combat to switch to hh, play it for a bit and then disengage again. Or stay disengaged while preparing the buffs. It seems way too much of a hassle for the casual community and potentially even a net negative in dps depending on how well you’re playing. Realistically, in terms of casual play if at all this might only see use in the downtime during area transitions, this doesn’t sound like too big of an impact and most likely doesn’t outweigh the benefits of having a freely choosable secondary weapon for actual use. Especially if we are allowed to use the same weapon class twice which has some other interesting implications. For speedrunners I don’t believe It would be worth to have a downtime in damage and it will most likely only be used in the beginning of a fight as part of the buff routine. Since IB had a limit on how far you could buff your attack, it‘s highly likely this returns. Which might also render the hh buff useless as you might already reach attack cap just with heroics for example. Additionally this game is multiplayer. And horn buffs don’t stack. This means only one pocket horn would be useful unless everyone coordinates to use different ones. On the term of relevancy for normal horn gameplay, pocket horn being a thing doesn’t impair the capabilities of the weapon at all, and the besides the additional uptime of regular usage, it also allows for constant application of support options such as healing which don‘t have a passive buff. Also with a melody like all melody effect extended like in world having a regular hunting horn player could keep up a multitude of buffs at all times even the ones potential pocket horn users would provide. And if two hunting horns is an option it could vastly improve the support capabilities. A cute little side note, pocket horn being useful might trick more people into trying and maybe even liking the weapon. For speedrunners I think it’s not more disruptive than the wallbangs or the wyvern riding is now, and if it really is such a big issue for the speedrunning community, they can just disallow it in the TA ruleset.
Personally I dislike with how negative you are towards the speedrunning community. I think what they do in pushing the game to it’s limits is great. I also feel like discussion about optimizing the game and sets is a very fun and good way to interact with the game. The fact that it is perceived and pushed by some community members as the only „right“ way to play the game is bad. And I‘d love for some content creators to actively push against that narrative and to show off some optimized middle of the road casual builds without making it sound like they are of lesser value. Since set building isn’t easy and many casual players only use youtube as their source for builds, but you rarely see any buildshowcases outside the meta or cheese tactics.
Waaay to long comment. Tl dr Speedrunning and metadiscussion will absolutely be a thing. Pocket horn will be no issue imo, but the video seemed to misunderstand why it would be a problem in the first place.
I honestly didn't think of it at all lmao, honestly unless HH gives massive boost or somehow able to buff me very quickly without wasting 3 mins every 5 mins to rebuff i wouldnt bother bring it and probably only stick to one weapon for 95% of the time, just like what happened in rise where i never bring companion in solo hunt event tho its objectively better to bring companion.
Hello Sir iixxion , do you know whats the best palico for mhrs
Man if they're making the HH damage on par with others, then what's the problem if all weapons will perform the same with buffs including HH with buffed damage
Remember: The act of switching, buffing up and switching back consumes time- time that you could have used to deal damage. Even if you gain increased damage for a time after (which you also have to re-apply later), you are making a downpayment of time while switching and playing those songs- in addition to the vulnerable state you are in while playing. You can gain damage buffs faster with items.
The only time that HH song playing will not hamper you like this is if you actually use the weapon and weave in your songs with your attacks- in addition to HH becoming more efficient the more party members you have. If all 4 people have HH, they each should have unique songs, otherwise it would be inefficient/redundant. Certain songs do not stack.
Iixxion isn’t a gunlance hater. He is a gunlance-lover hater.
So I would say that I’m a somewhat Meta person. I do pay attention to it and often play roughly around it, i really like the feeling of knowing I’m doing X at the best efficiency or close to it. However I DO enjoy finding new ways of playing a Game or grinding a specific thing. And tbh the only time Meta somewhat matters is in PVP games but even then 80% of the time it’s way better playing what you enjoy since meta mainly matters for people in the top ranks or Esport players. and seeing the same 4-5 Agents/Hero’s/Champions or whatever every game DOES get tiring. But MH ?or any other PvE focused game? I don’t give a duck about what others play. Just have fun and play the game. And being worried about a PVE games meta seems silly to me. And people actually complaining about it are even sillier haha
It really depends on the person but if you get speed runners or trauma kids that do nothing but play monster hunter, they'll buff themselves take down the monsters quick and ruin the fun for everyone else, if your on multiplayer
15:41 they also tried this a lot in world and rise with update patches nerfing meta playstyles (like iai slash in Rise) and creating anti meta fights like Alatreon in iceborne.
Honestly people that main 1 wep and never tried a second wep probably would never use this feature in wilds
I plan on bringing sleep DB and a GS. Will it be good? No idea, the game doesn't even have a release date yet.
I think I've noticed is that meta communities pushed back with anything that doesn't fit their idea of what the most efficient way to play the game is
I do worry about hunting horn users why would the most useful in multiplayer cuz everyone might bring a hunting horn your damage could drop because you're horrible with that weapon and that's the thing I didn't even realize for each player their best weapon combination will be different than anyone else because everybody plays different
Self Improvement on other weapons would be busted is one thing i could see being an issue. If it became like world giving an attack bonus (not the issue), but the move speed and minds eye. That would pribably push the developer to push down HH, at that groups expense.
It's funny to me that people focused on hunting horn for this since my first thought when I saw you could bring two weapons is that everybody is going to bring a light bowgun for armour+demon shot, healing shot, paralyze, poison, sleep and anything else. That'd require people use a bowgun though so it was probably silly to think.
So a lot to unpack with this video as well as the community as a whole.
In the case of the whole meta aspect I don't see it going anywhere. If anything I see this making it more aggressive. They might not take the time to test all 91 weapon combinations but once it's known how a weapon performs and what monsters it does well against they will be able to crunch the numbers and to on paper theory. From there it will ultimately come down to what weapon performs the fastest and then if it is detrimental or not to bring a secondary weapon or if they will just use the pure weapon for the fastest possible kill.
At the end of the day bringing HH will always be a net positive which will make it so taking the 10 seconds to doot out a tune before running into a fight will be worth it because it's just like popping any other buff. The difference comes down to how long those buffs will last and if you make up that 10 seconds you spent playing the HH rather then attacking.
From there we have to look at the bullying within the community both from the meta stand point and non meta. Rise/Sunbreak had a very large issue of people being kicked from sessions or hunts simply for owning DLC weapon skins and using them despite them not providing any in game benefit. We've also seen how heavily focused on a single weapon/play style the meta can get to where if you're not playing this weapon with these armor skills and these switch skills you're playing it wrong. It's not a far stretch to assume that the meta mentality that is already so deeply engrained in a lot of the community because of speed runners and all the talk of meta that it will come down to you having your main weapon and a pocket horn. If you don't have a pocket horn you're kicked from the hunt because you're not playing optimally. While I don't see this being a wide spread issue I can imagine it cropping up here and there.
As for the speed running community themselves they will likely still thrive with adding simple restrictions as to one weapon only or one weapon type only in order to keep as few categories as possible while still maintaining a fair competitive environment.
Ultimately I see the two weapons as a positive thing and I look forward to how much it adds to the game. As someone who loves Greatsword and Switch Axe I'm looking forward to exhausting the monster with my Swaxe and then Chopping some tails with true charges.
Who is "bullying" you? Do you feel pressured to follow the meta? Aren't you a "normal" and "good" person?
iixxion imitating these so called people: "what if i just use a bowgun, bowguns are just guns and monsters cant handle guns if you shoot from afar?" (not his exact words, but thats how i've interpreted this as)
Me: "ROFL! have you ever used a bowgun cause your not gonna be a shooter on the sidelines less you got a good other player handling the aggro. Even then, your gonna find how often your pewpew toy needs to be sheathed as the beast is standing behind you!
as far as the huntinghorn is covered; even if you can bring and use a huntinghorn, it doesn't mean your good with it! A good hunter knows how to spot a huntinghorn pro from the rabble as It's a night and day difference! doesn't mean you should discourage people from bringing a huntinghorn (unless you personally know that person and how they use the hunting horn).
My concern is what if I spend all this time and creativity making a build that perfectly suits my ideal playstyle, which i did in Sunbreak, which turned out to be ridiculously strong. Only to have people running essentially one of my weapons + HH and making my build look weak. That would take the fun out of my build because id have this thought in the back of my mind telling me that my build could be better but due to the fact im a pure bow user, i cant touch it.
only thing I disagree with is speedrunning being "finished", I think it's the opposite, it's going to thrive for years to come and make more way more dramatic strides. New records won't be shaving mere seconds anymore but minutes and minutes off runs when somebody comes up with a clever combo. And this will happen for a way longer time than any title before. There will be so many combinations to try to improve times with. Granted speedrunning is going to change and a lot of the people you complain about might be drowned out a bit more. And there will be a lot of "normal" or less prolific (noisy) players holding speed records for specific weapon combinations bringing us a new generation of speedrunners. TLDR: Speedrunning isn't finished at all, but it definitely will change.
I don't know, if the quest starts in the middle of exploration, how can there be speedrunning? Are we getting traditional quests? When do you start the timer for the speed run? Can that be manipulated? Like spending several minutes luring the monster to a preferred area before "starting the quest"? Wait, how will they abandon the quest? That is the most important feature in the game for the speedrunner, abandoning the quest.
@@hero_on_youtube I thought the most important feature was an ingame timer...Hehe, guess we will have to see how the gameplay loop is actually structured when the game actually comes out. I hear you, but I will reserve judgement for now. Pretty sure people will find a structure and/or make up rulesets to allow for a repeatable speedrunning . I don't speedrun, but I see the appeal, so I would love for everyone to get a great game where they can do what they enjoy, without being elitist or dickish about it, but I guess it's the internet. The only way to avoid that is keeping away from toxic places. XD
Forget it, these people don't actually know what speedrunning is. So long as you can do SOMETHING in the game, speedruns are possible. And you're correct, when a game offers so much player expression, flexibility and options to the player speedrunning will thrive on it. Do these people think Minecraft has so many speedrun categories for no reason?
I'm not sure if it's the circle jerk of a comment section that this guy's channel is that doesn't even understand what a speedrun is or if the MH community is so illiterate that they can't understand a definition. I truly hope it's not the entire community that can't grasp simple concepts.
Same goes with just everything the guy in this channel talks about, constant strawmans, missing the point, making stuff up or just being disingenuous. The people who watch him eat it up like he's making any sense. I mean it's insane to see so many people not understand what META or speedrunning is, it's like a breeding ground for illiteracy.
Meta or not if you want to spend the time to get on your mount, switch to HH, get off mount, buff up, get back on your mount, switch back to you main weapon, and get back off your mount to feel better about your fight, well by all means you are and should be more then welcome to do so. Me? Ima go bonk monster with big stick.
Hunting Horn buffs only lasts maybe half a minute or so and you can only switch weapons while riding your Seikret, so it would be highly inefficient and bothersome to use the buff, mount your Seikret, swap weapons dismount the Seikret, and maybe have just about enough buff time to land a hit or two.
I think double hunting horn is going to be really strong because you can get more buffs and sustain buffs longer. If people actually play hunting horn, that's a good thing. I love hunting horn.
As a Warframe player I can safely say that meta can´t be killed. So long a combination of ones gear does the most dmg possible that will be the meta. Testing 91 weapon combinations is ultra easy if you do it the nerdy way. Turn the hunt in to an Exel sheet for number crunching and start crunching. Then try out the top weapon combination with the highest dmg number.
The current meta will be replaced by a new one.
Personally I don´t think meta players are afraid of a big shift in the optimal way as they will only play the optimal way anyway. Warframe meta players enjoy the game by playing the meta. Not sure about the MH meta players, but I expect a tiny fraction of them do it too.
An aspect that the video didn´t touch on is how some feel like their weapon will be used as a "stat stick" to buff ones main weapon. Witch is the exact thing the HH does in the previews games, but now I can do it myself and that´s a problem somehow.
The Freaky Glaive and HH social dispute opened my eyes on how many people just tell you how you should be playing a weapon. As in how´s right to play and how´s wrong to play "their" weapon. To witch I have to say: "FUCK YOU! For telling me to be grateful for the presumable removal of helicopter."
Capcom only cares for the meta for balancing reasons. Otherwise they wouldn´t had buffed/nerfed moves during the Sunbreak patches.
After what happened with DD2 and ER dlc, I've decided to stay away from internet whenever the game I want to play come out so I can enjoy it in peace.
I have a gut feeling another wave of bullshit is coming when bow speed runners realise they won’t be infitely dancing round the monster anymore. I could be wrong about this, but seems like the changes done to coating are meant to force you to pause more, diminishing or maybe invalidating infinistamina strategies.
They’re gonna figure it out. There will always be a meta in the game I guarantee you, but you don’t have to use the meta so I don’t really see why it would be an issue either way. I have no problem with the pocket horn. I think it’ll introduce more people to the hunting horn. But I do think it’s a little silly to think that they won’t figure it out. They’re going to. Also, I’ve never felt any hostility from any of the meta gamers I’ve never had anybody get upset with me for not using meta builds. And I for one cannot wait to see speed runners in this game. I love those videos.
Historically, you really only start bumping into people like that mainly in the hyper endgame of MH where the likelihood of getting casually 1 tapped to death is high.
@camil3545 True, that's why I think it's such a a non-issue because they're so few of those people and so few of the people playing the game are going to reach the hyper end game. That's why this video feels a little unnecessary to me it seems more divisive than what he is actually trying to complain about. There's not that many of these players out there and the ones that are like that are only going to play with people who play just like them so it won't matter to the others.
I think this change (2 weapons) gives the option to check the possibilities of another weapon. It's hard enough to get me to leave Insect Glaive and try something else.
Elitist speedrunners and meta hunters are the problem. I can see speedrunners still enjoying finding the "optimal" way to do a hunt. Real speedrunners stay in their lane. They know that some of their strategies are basically crack-head straties to do things, and not everyone plays that way. Elitists are the ones who ruin everything. Elitist speedrunner think you should speedrun the hunts and elitist meta hunters will say you have to meta hunt. Meta hunters also aren't an issue. I kinda see myself as a meta hunter in the sense of "I like using the best thing in this category " type. I like the best element weapon for a certain type of element. I like using weakness elements on monsters. I like using the best weapon in each class for each damage type, but im not an elitist who thinks everyone should play like me. I dont get angry in hunts if someone is playing what they want. I can care less.
Tldr Elitists ruin everything. Not speed runners and not meta hunters.
Hunting horn is gonna he permanently strapped to my back an its gonne require 2 other ppl to use me like an instrument for buff. Hammer for my other to counter balance.
Mh community when it comes to HH
Old gen: kicks HH users for corner horn
World: no HH users
Rise: kicks HH users cuz "my identity"
Wilds: kicks HH users cuz "my identity"
Truly a cursed weapon lol
Only problem i could see is that every monster gets designed around players always having a hunting horn with them
However i think the devs are actually smart enough to not do that, and would design them more generally around the fact that you can switch between 2 completely different playstiles, and elements out of the blue
THe problem I see right now is if we get playing songs on the seikret that they probably have the white note make a demounting attack so basically no song can be played on the back of it making it really half baked and I would think it's a shame that it doesn't work. :(
Its a little naive to think a meta wont develop when the game comes out simply because of the increase in options. Look at competitive pokemon. Every gen introduces new pokemon, new moves, new abilities, new items, and now new gimmicks(mega/dynamax). With every release, the competitive scene becomes more and more complex. So what do they do when faced with so many options? They fall back on what worked previously. And slowly build on it. Over time, the meta evolves from people incorporating new variables into proven strategies. Whatever the current meta is may not be the definitive best strat but if it works well enough, there's no reason not to use it. When the idea of carrying two weapons was introduced, the first thing players started theory crafting was LS or their main melee and a ranged weapon. Then as more info came out more people started thinking things like bringing HH for boosts. All we can do right now is theorycraft, and the meta is already evolving before the games release.
META for pvp games is completely different from META for co-op games. I have several videos on this phenomenon.
@@iixxion That's a good point. In PVP games, the meta has to evolve because there is no one true strategy for every other player. For every meta strategy developed, another will rise to counter it. But for a PVE game, everyone is fighting the same battles. Eventually, the community will come up with something that can deal with it all. I didn't really think of that. But eventually, the MH community will come up with that meta. It may take longer, but it will happen.
@@tetsuc4bra577 I think people who speedrun will come up with a bunch of ways they're going to say is "the best," but hopefully the number of combinations that exist can keep them busy enough that they can't go and be obnoxious in public.
I'm still gonna play hunting horn tbh I don't really give a shit. I'll have a pocket greatsword or longsword just to cut off the tail lmao
my only concern with the HH being a sidearm. is self improvement. you look at people speed running with teams of 4 they dont always use a HH as the support, sometimes they do sure but they dont always do HH sometimes its SnS or LBG. but as i said, i do draw an issue with self improvement, because if you can pull out a horn activate self improvement then pull out say a gunlance. and start running around with the speed buff of self improvement. that is changing the way gunlance (or any other weapon for that matter) in a way that it was never intended to work. imagine HBG able to sprint around with the gun out. all other buffs, they're fine no issue what so ever, but self improvement should only be active if you have a horn in current use.
and for those who are not aware, self improvement is a 10% dmg increase, minds eye and a MASSIVE boost to movement speed. HH with self improvement active is the weapon with the fastest movement speed in the game. but, its designed to have that buff active. and as the name implies self improvement only improves yourself, you cant give this buff to others.
1. Call Seikret (wait a couple of seconds)
2. Ride Seikret and swap weapon
3. Go down from Seikret
4. Self improvement
5. Ride Seikret again
6. Switch Weapon
7. Go down from Seikret
8. Go back to the hunt
Do this every 2-3 minutes. I don't think it would be beneficial of solo players, but in a team, yes I can see that. But if you're playing solo, doing this midhunt would be daunting, a DPS downtime (if you're using pocket horn, you're definitely concerned about DPS), unsafe. We are also unsure if they will keep the World/Rise buff duration of 1-3 minutes (for attack up). When this was asked in a Dev interview, they told the interviewee that they have balanced it so that other weapons are in contention of being a 2ndary weapon. I'm not saying that they nerfed the duration, but it is highly likely.
Can this be used effectively by solo players? Yes, but only the 1-2% of players or Speedrunners.
@@xTiddi once you get into the swing of things, you're not going to be fighting most monsters for more than 2-3 minutes, even if you dont kill it in that time its going to move from one location to another in that time. i have put a lot of hours into the game using HH. i only need to apply self improvement between battles very rarely is it needed during. again attack up, defence up. even things like the sonic wave or mobility ele up songs. none of these i think are "meta defining" but self improvement was never meant to be applied to other weapons. as long as it stays a HH only affect i have no problem with sidearm HH
I think most people will use 2 of the same weapon type but for counter a possible monster that change weaknesses in different stages, imagine Alatreon fight that everytime he changes his element we just change too for the most effective
I'll be running dual GS on my meta build. Just wait and see.
Just make it where if the hunting horn gets pocketed, all buffs for the party via horn that’s pocketed are removed. Problem solved.
Starting in MH World, we were allowed to switch gear in the tent. We used to start with a Mushroomancer build, get the buffs from all the mushrooms and switch to our normal set. The "gear changing in the tent" option carried over into MH Rise so we could do that there too. We could have four different players with Mushroomancer/Hunting Horn builds with different songs on each horn and get a lot of buffs to start the quest.
HH buffs disappear if you change weapons.
so clearly the devs didnt want you using HH just to buff yourself.
@@jpraczbr8413 They don't disappear when you switch weapons in Wilds, that's why some people are concerned. Unless there's more new info since Gamescom/PAX.
@@jpraczbr8413 Source? Why isn't this widespread information?
@@strateks9611because it's wrong. Based on the demos people have played this is untrue
@@strateks9611 LITERALLY TRY IT YOURSELF?? lmao you people are unreal.