After playing the original 7th Continent, I felt that it was basically “curiosity killed the cat” in game form. The trouble is that “curiosity” was my primary motivation for playing the game, but it felt like it was usually punished. The perma-death mechanic made it so that by the time I had invested 15 hours into the game, I was basically unwilling to curiously explore anymore!
You said that so well, I wish I would have thought of that. It exactly felt like curiosity killed the cat. I do wonder if it was more of an open world and rewarded the player to explore would the game have to be twice as big. I get the tension add with perma death it just takes too long to get around in this world I can't imagine having fun doing everything all over again.
While I were playing 7th continent, I found that my "curiosity" is not realistic in the world. Once I imagine I am really fall into such world, some curiosities should be prevent. Going underground without any preparation or food? Not a good idea. Something looks really dangerous? Should pass or prepare for it next time. There are several dead choice which are obviously after all.(or there is some hidden number :p)
7th continent was one of the first modern board games i learned about. It sounded so alluring and i think at some point i will get that or 7th citadel and play them on easy mode as a gentle narrative experience. Great vid!
hey man! my group is also on the drums of desolation threat. We're 4 and i got to say, I think regarding the checks it's got to be a lot easier with more players (bc every one of you is more specialized in specific skills through items and hand cards (which are in sum a lot more, than you could carry in single mode)), so we actually rarely fail a check. Although On a general basis, i think that should be a priority.. It's sensibel to read what the outcome would be to fail and decide to go for the minimum, if its not that bad and vice versa. If the outcome really does a number on you make sure you'll pass it! in the long run, you'll be far better off! We also had quite the learning curve in the beginning,using every "hope reborn" card to check smt of the progress tree, instead of using them along the way to regain health, which we actually liked. It was kind of a true learning expercience inside the game and it's rules. It's clear how they work, but not what the best way is to use them in a specific point in the scenario. I think it's quite a good decision from the developers to have these cards give you life points (so more cards to play) OR progress (buildings, world map, (reflex) skill cars, mystery numbers), because you want to all use them for progress, but u will have to use a few for life points! We also had that duell and met a "link of the chain" the previous session that casually mantioned this "honor rule" to kick the loser of a duell, so it felt so good, and rewarding having remembered that fact! On our first session we weren't able to obtain the goal and felt kind of bad for it, but we learned so much about the world and seemed to understand the world so much better then, that it didn't feel like a fail and that i found amazing! I'm looking forward to the rest of the story. Up to this point at every session we're all amazed and baffled about the new world content and mechanics we encounter. If you love the world, just play the explorer mode and house rule some things. I played 7th continent that way, because I loved the exploring but also found some parts of it to repetitive, but the actual exploring is worth it in my eyes
I’m glad you found the fun. I won’t ever be able to play this with anyone so my option is to two hand it which I am Luke warm on. I also have very little interest in playing the same thing again, while the world is interesting it is relatively shallow meaning I’m going have to do much the same stuff. This didn’t strike me as very repayable. Either way thanks for sharing and I appreciate you watching!
Nice take. I am trough the introduction scenario and am loving it. Playing on easy mode though (3 cards per life-point). I am also the explorer type and will continue to do what you warned against - explore everything. If I die too much, I will copy the "get me back to live"-rule from 7th Continent -- and just keep on going.
yeah if I had to do it all over again I would do the easy mode. I basically always to normal in everything and it wast even a thought. I hope you enjoy your time in this odd world!!! thanks for watching!
I really love when people can appreciate a take and not be offended. I tried to present what is still a very compelling number of positive points as well. Some people to hear that and immediately dislike the video. This game is certainly for some people and I hope you are one of them. Enjoy!
excellent explination! you seemed to put into words what i was *thinking* about this game. of course, i've not played it yet, but your points were ABSOLUTLY what i was feeling while watching play throughs of the 7th citadel. imma pass on this one. thanks!
I really appreciate this take. I haven't played Citadel, but I had massive frustration with Continent for different reasons. Everything in that game causes you to reset the map and explore the same spots over and over and over, to the point that at some point I felt like I wasn't playing a game, but instead was just taking out and putting away cards. Even now I sarcastically refer to it as "Card Sorting The Game"
I didn’t mention it but it felt like I was a librarian constantly putting books away. It is exhausting re exploring the same area. Didn’t feel great to keep skill checking in the area around the citadel the t I had explored countless time. Totally agree.
Great video and review, sorry to hear it didn't land for you but I totally get it. Every point was really well put. What are the games you really enjoy?
I was wondering how you were feeling about it. My game tastes are pretty wide. From Too Many Bones to Castles of Burgandy. I love mechanics and puzzles to solve. Story is last on my list but certainly appreciated. The most recent example would be sleeping gods distant skies. Voidfall is probably my most recent LOVE though. No story all mechanics and strategy. Appreciate you watching.
@@Neon_Gorilla I'm still digging Citadel but I agree with your points on how it comes across. Have you checked out Hadrian's Wall? It's not a mega big game but there is a nice puzzle there.
Nice video. The one comment I would make is that as a masochist 😈, the tutorial early chapters gated you (which you didn't like because you wanted to roam free) and then the shackles were taken off just a little and you got lost (and didn't like that). 😝 But yeah different games for different people. So your conclusion is totally valid that if people don't like any of the points you made, then they will probably bounce of the game themselves. But yeah the main emphasis that the game expects from the player is to pay attention to detail and clues.
I didn’t mind the tutorial at all. In fact I loved it. I came out of it being very excited about the game. I only got lost because I pulled the wrong card and really loved the idea about the world opening up. However the rub is that entire first experience could never be replicated because I died. The game actually didn’t open up it just let me explore it to death. I would prefer the game let you get lost in that world and not kill you permanently. The critique might come down to just that. The permadeath mechanic makes you scared to explore and if you want to live you need to go out and back to base asap. I simply don’t have time to play the same 15 hours again. But that’s just me. I totally recognize there are plenty of people that feel different.
So I don't know why you were dying so easily (were you taking a card back after each move?)... but if you are, I'd suggest playing on story mode. It may have been a lot easier for us because we had two people. We normally finished a scenario's objectives and then just had fun wandering and working on side quests. One thing that people don't seem to realize is just how carefully you have to read. We'd write down the number of key passages in the book and refer back to them for clues. And there were often a TON of clues. Many things that seem random are things you get clues about if you talk to the right people. And often there will be something that says 'so-and-so may know something about this' maybe from a map exploration or from an intro or something.. and if you go, then you know how to solve something, and if you don't, you don't know. Sometimes there's things that are tests that are really hard unless you have special knowledge - for example, you may discover information about a plant and it turns out the plant helps greatly with that test. Likewise, sometimes there's knowledge that can help you avoid the status effects of more dangerous areas or encounters.
This sounds very much like 7th Continent in the push and pull of exploration vs survival. It took me a few games of 7th Continent to get good at not dying. I think one big thing about the 7th C series is that you are NOT a murder hobo like in so many other games (Middara, Gloomhaven, etc) and that can be tough for some gamers who expect that one every turn they’re going to annihilate the challenge set before them.
I think that is totally fair. It is clear the designer wants you to struggle. I think the challenge in the game might be deciding what to attempt and be ok with not succeeding much of the time. Love “murder hobo” btw.
It’s not exactly about what you are okay with not succeeding, but what you should spend your time on and what you shouldn’t. Continent puts a lot of points of interest on your path toward the goal that have nothing to do with the goal and everything to do with the map card. My friends and I figured out after a couple of games that we shouldn’t attempt everything we see but should pick and choose. Continent comes with a probably chart that anyone should use to get a rough idea of how many cards you need to pull for any challenge. Citadel doesn’t appear to have the same chart. But it helped me early on figure out how many pulls I should put into a particular action. I wonder if Citadel is more focused on getting players to help each other attempt actions to minimize the individual card draws. Continent has a shared action deck. I’ve played probably 6-7 games of Continent so far in my years owning it.
@@michaelbonet9062 I had a hard time picking and choosing. I really wanted to see what happens with everything:(. Which led to my demise. Probability might have been helpful.
@@Neon_Gorilla picking and choosing is absolutely critical to being successful in the 7th series. I think it’s a better game because of this requirement. There are plenty of murder hobo games out there.
One thing about that event card you're talking about, I experienced that event as well but it's kind of alluded to that part of the dueling tradition being expected. I also went to a tavern much later that had gossip around the topic and it informs you of the tradition. 7th Continent was extremely unfair. You could draw a card and have a 50% chance of getting a bad result and that's it. 7th Citadel seems much more layered and nuanced than that. All the information is there, you just have to come across it or dig deep enough. It also often uses what effects you have on you (focused, confused, etc) to determine outcomes along with Luck cards that seemed to skew towards the positive. Great video and I do hope you dive back into 7th Citadel! I find the game overall very fair and it deeply rewards knowledge.
That is good to know. Like I said in the video it is tough to actually review a game like this because of the info you just gave me. I think that is really cool that the world gives you hints I just wish I didn’t have to start the whole thing over if I dig too deep to find those hints. I think if I do go back it will be with the other threat in a couple months.
@@Neon_Gorilla They do recommend doing Dadachaem's Awakening first, then Drums, then Throne so I imagine Dada's a bit easier. I get where you're coming from because I love exploration too and the game can feel punishing at times but I'm confident they'll give me a chance to explore the whole world and the health and groundshiver limits are there to keep me slightly on track.
@@Piata yeah I did hear that after the fact. Has me slightly intrigued to try that one out. Drums does feel a bit abrupt if a beginning in retrospect. I wonder how many will react to my final scenario once they get to it. I haven’t traded it away yet so there is a chance ;)
Well articulated video by the way. When I was about 3/4 the way through watching I honestly just thought here’s a guy who just wants everything handed to him and basically get an easy ride. Then you got to the scenario that broke you, if I am right does it involve a “a very tall building 😉”? I’ll be honest I house ruled (cheated, it’s my game I do what I want 😁)that one after a few attempts. That scenario is damn near impossible to pass logically and I did get some of the dialogue help legitimately. I have to say whilst that last element did/can leave a sour taste, I’d skip past and give it another shot. I’m a couple of scenarios past that now and still enjoying it much more than 7th continent.
You might be correct about the scenario :). I wonder how many people "die" there and continue on. I agree with you totally fine to move past that. Its funny each morning I woke up after being beat up the game still pulled at me and after talking about it so much in the comments am starting to soften on my trade designation on BGG :) Glad you pushed through your initial impression on the video, yeah I don't mind difficult and even unfair. I had an entire portion I cut out talking about too many bones and how it will kill you and you have no recourse however the difference is the time "lost" is potentially so much greater here. Thanks for watching.
I could feel your raw emotion as you vaguely described the scenarios. I am a fan of choose your own adventure style games as well, so I’m curious how my own experience will compare.
Interesting that came across because I really was mentally exhausted after each play through. Have you played 7th continent? I hear it is similarly punishing and a bit more convoluted so if you like that I think this is actually an improvement. I wonder if I made it to the 50 hour mark if this would feel more like a choose your own adventure or an adventure on rails with some interesting side deviations.🤔 I suppose I will need know. Thanks for watching.
@@Neon_Gorilla I did not get a chance to play 7th continent. I heard good things about it and then saw that 7th citadel improves on the system. I did play a bit of tainted grail which at a high level is a similar style of game. So, I’m looking forward to doing some light comparisons to that one.
good video, yeah I think you got the tone down! 7th continent did the same thing, exploring too much will kill you. its a big reason why many people bounced off of it. I havent got to this yet, but I have played the 7th citadel and loved it. not sure exactly how this will go, but in the 7th citadel, lots of time opened up once you got a good hunting loop, but even so you never had unlimited time. as for that last scenario, I cant be sure, but having played the 7th continent, there was probably a clue somewhere telling you what success number you actually needed.
@@Neon_Gorilla well it's not for everyone and that's ok. Maybe with better expectations you can get a different perspective. But there will always be the risk of failure after 10 plus hours. I'm the kinda person that my first thought after that is "ok I know what I did wrong, time to try again."
@@Neon_Gorilla I haven't played citadel yet, but in continent there were even randomized map tiles. Sometimes a thing would be there, sometimes not. And as much as I like the exploration, I love the puzzle. I remember exploring a cave, going right and running out of energy. My first thought is next time I'm going to get there with more energy and go left. With some curses I would die just as I started to figure out what I needed to do. For me it's more of a challenge than a frustration.
I received this one and Primal within a week of each other. Both were over 3 years since their KS campaigns ended. They are completely different games. For my tastes (which, I think, are similar to yours), Primal is by far superior. Strategic card play, very crunchy decisions, huge boss battler, no dice/luck involved, and very thematic. 7th Citadel is starting to feel repetitive by exploring the same tiles time and time again. We are on scenario 9 of 10 of one threat and will put it away for a while after we finish. Check out Primal if you can. ;)
I mentioned primal in a previous video and I watched a couple op shop playthrough and instantly fell for it. Not sure when I would be able to get my hands on it though. I don’t see many wanting to trade it away at this point.
Interesting to hear you mention Elden Ring, a game which, for me, felt punishing and unfun. It sounds like the game isn't for you, yet the things you say sound like the exact game experience that many people would want. A story based game that isn't guaranteed that you're going to "win" every time. A world where you can learn the landscape and generally what to expect, yet you won't just be seeing the exact same thing every time. A set of mechanics where, as a beginner, you are still able to succeed, even if you're scraping by at the end. My guess is, if you played the exact same scenario from the start again, now knowing what you know, you'd make some different choices, be more prepared for what's coming at the end, and experience different story beats, which is the kind of "replayability" many story games don't have.
Having played 7th continent, I know that the game wasn't what some people wanted. The "timer" in the game (deck of cards running out) means you can't just leisurely explore everything and still complete the goal. I think this is where the tension comes in, since if you could just wander and see everything you wanted, why wouldn't you just exhaust everything, and then never play the scenario ever again? It's so hard to get story games to be replayable, since you have to have things that are different and interesting when someone already knows where the story is going to lead. I'm just glad that this one isn't like 7th continent, where you didn't really have any story, just a vague objective, and you'd spend 20 hours just trying to find where that is, because there was no real direction.
Elden Ring is the easiest souls like. It allowed you to freely explore Limgrave and grind power for as long as you like. I did not find it too difficult if you are leveled. But the big difference is there is no permadeath and you weren’t spending life to explore. The only downfall in exploring is wandering into the wrong corner of the world and you die then start over near by. The stakes in this game to lose progress are significantly different. Variability in this games comes in the form of a few branched decisions but after 15 hours there were maybe 10 banished cards that I couldn’t look at meaning the variability on a second play was mostly around exploration cards which aren’t directly connected to the broader story line. Like I said I can’t even fathom picking this back up and playing the same scenario again. The fun was discovering this word for the first time. I know you love narrative stuff so I am sure it would be more up your alley.
@@Neon_Gorilla That all makes sense. I put 25 hours into Elden Ring, and at no point did it feel really "fun", so I know that type of game isn't for me, and I can see why this game isn't for you. Hopefully you have more fun with Robinson Crusoe, which is famously a game which feels punishing and unfair. When you win, though, the victory is that much sweeter.
Yeah I am a little nervous for RC but punishing is totally fine. Too many bones is exactly that but the difference is it is scenario based. We will see.
I really tried to love 7th Continent, and couldn't, and sounds like what I disliked about it have carried over into 7th Citadel. It feels like "guess what the designer was thinking" and getting punished for just *playing* the game and exploring. I backed the game while I was still learning what sort of games I enjoy (or not), but it is a shame to have waited 3 years for it to deliver, only to now decide to sell it, still in shrink.
I started watching your video as I continued to debate 7th Citadel, and then a limited stock went on sale ahead of the June 2024 Kickstarter and I've ordered it.... I have no restraint. My question is if there is an internal logic to the morality of the world that can be discovered or if the game mechanics (goal of what the game is trying to do to you) are inconsistent and there is no hope of tuning into the morality - and so the choices are arbitrary rather than adhering to an internal logic. Something for me to discover.
I hope you like it, many have. I am not sure about the morality consistency as u certainly didn’t see it but it certainly can be there. I highly recommend not starting with the “drums” threat like I did.
22:00 what you're describing sound actually very stressful. You don't know in advance what weird combination of boosts you'll need so either you must turn back losing time, or you push on and fail. You're not "excitedly barely making it", you're blindly stumbling in a dark cellar kicking things until you find the door. That's not what I'm looking for in a game. It reminds me of isofarian guard, where you got to chapter 2 then suddenly everyone wanted metal fragments but they were out of stock. You actually had to gather a bunch from chapter 1. Tough luck. Or bad design.
yeah I think the intention is to add to the mystery and make players feel rewarded for doing something they didn't have to earlier in the game however if the thing that you did not do leads to death or failure it turns a fun feel good moment into a BIG feel bad....I will say I am not sure on the design merits since I did not finish but certainly the design was not for me.
Good take. I myself love the game and disagree with roughly 95% of the reasoning, but I appreciate the constructive critisicm - people who aren't the target audience will probably recognize themselves in the argument and not pay premium prices for something they will end up disliking.
Appreciate you respectfully disagreeing. Yeah I don’t know that it is a matter of this game is good or bad. I think it might be more polarizing than many games and people will firmly find themselves on one side or the other. I am trying to branch out a bit and in my gaming experience and this one missed. You win some you lose some.
I do wonder mildly though if the punishing difficulty you experienced was due to the fact that you didn't start with the suggested first Threat (Dadachaem's Awakening) - that one has a much more reasonable difficulty curve, and I'm quite confident the Drums and Throne were designed with "expert" players in mind.
lol had no idea about that. I just played the one that Canje Studios played so I could go back and check myself after playing through a scenario. Certainly could be that.
It's funny you mentioned Elden Ring, because the game basically conveys the same thing(exploration and finding the way through in an unforgiving and punishing world) as it, but while you like one of them for what they are, you dislike the other for the same thing. And it really sounds like you played the whole game wrong somehow. Feels like how you messed up your "scenario flag" rule, you did something else wrong, or didn't go into the game with the right mindset. Something feels fishy. Not because you didn't like the game, that's fair, it happens. Your reasons feel weird somehow. I never felt the grind, always had fun in exploration and making choices, every scenario had something new and cool mechanics kept me going. Never felt punished, unless i did something that i was not supposed to(like go off exploring the wrong way while it clearly stated where i should be looking). It always felt like my decisions, and mistakes, not the game punishing me for no reason. After a few scenarios i learned that if i read everything, thought about what i needed to do, and commited to doing it, i had a lot of spare time to explore. If i didn't prioritise, i had a harder time completing my objectives. Yes the game is somewhat linear in what you need to do, but you do have options most of the time on how you do it. If you brute force something, it's gonna punish you. If you see a hard task ahead, and prepare with the right equipment, and action cards, your will feel smart for doing so and it will make your life a lot easier. Yeah it's a difficult game. Some of the puzzles are really hard to do, sometimes you waste your time trying something irrelevant, thinking there's something there. But there's always plenty of hints and clues around. And when you "get it" it feels so damn rewarding. And when you fail, know, it's always your damn fault. You should have been faster. You should have prepared the right cards in your hand. You shouldn't have gone into groundshiver 9 territory, with a level 5. You shouldn't have been so curious trying to everything all at once. You are trying to survive out there and help your settlement, not losing 15 life for a magic dragon sword, because it looks cool.
Re elden ring. You die and respawn near by. Exploration is not punished with a possible permanent death. Spend enough time in limgrave grinding levels by the time you get to Morgott he is cake and most of the game you will be properly leveled. It is the easiest souls game in that regard. Re: everything else. Did you play drums an if so how did you get past the final scenario I described (if you know you know) I’m glad you enjoyed it I’m sure many do just not me. Thanks for the thoughtful remarks.
This is more similar to 7th continent than I thought. The first one was really similar to the T.I.M.E. Stories series- where permadeath was a feature and you were supposed to explore. The one that did this mechanic the best, IMO, was Sleeping Gods. At least that one had a definitive ending.
I can definitely see that feature it’s just one I don’t have time for especially when I didn’t find the moment to moment or digging through cards performing the same skill checks on random exploration times and then filing it all back. The only thing that was exciting to me was the unknown. When that is gone I don’t care to walk around in this world anymore.
the game gets much easier with mutiple charaters, each can have a specialty symbol and as you know they will specailize in certain actions that can afect the cards you keep in hand as across them all to help you prep for those individual chalanges you said you strugel with. you need to do some exploring in fact the first mission for the drums threat requires you to go into areas beyond your ground shiver to sucseed. i think the rails story was added to combat just how lost people got in 7th continent.
that is good to know, I had a feeling that multiplayer might have its benefits but never even thought about the initial chapter build giving you more access. I totally understand the need for ground shiver helping to guide otherwise you will die getting lost I just found it a little less fun. thanks for watching.
This is the type of review I love! Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am looking forward to getting my copy and we’ll see how it goes. If you have played them, how do you feel about Dawn of the Zeds or Robinson Crusoe? I love them but understand why people bounce off of these games too.
Thanks I really appreciate it. I will say even packing it up and re filing all the cards yesterday I was getting conflicted feeling of wanting to go again. It is odd each day that I came back to it I would actually be looking forward and hopeful that this was the day my luck had changed. Never played either but Robinson is pre ordered right now so I am a little nervous with its reputation and all. I think the difference is it is scenario based and there is not a perma death mechanic that can erase 10s of hours of progress. That is honestly the worst part. I play a ton of too many bones which is also insanely punishing and sometimes unfair but a loss there only erases 2 hours or so. I think this feeling of constant danger and tension is by design and I think if being terrified more and more while playing this game was the goal. They hit it out of the park. Good luck on your play through. Remember pull the right card for the scenario you are in :)
@@Neon_Gorilla Totally makes sense. I’m at the beginning of Tainted Grail (Chapter 3) and having a blast. I haven’t ran into any bad ‘gotcha’ moments yet, but I wonder if something random destroys my campaign 40 hours in how I’ll feel. I guess we’ll see!
@@Neon_Gorilla Yes! With the caveat that I’ve only played 2 Chapters of Fall of Avalon (using 2.0 rules). 😊 The narrative branches, choices are meaningful (time will tell if they are mean….), exploration and story is fantastic, have to pay attention to clues, and I enjoy the card play so far.
I know when I went through the game i was playing battles wrong with that chain icon, because i was never reducing the die, which should have happened each time i got a success. It didn't spell that out in the book but i saw someone else's gameplay and was like oh if i knew i could do that maybe i wouldn't have died trying to escape the intro scenario, lol. Even if that's not the right way i think its how i will try it next time, beause I can't imagine playing it again without some sort of slight fail forward aspect as blowing through the remaining 75% of my life points on one monster battle wasn't fun and just felt frustrating because my solo build wasn't made for fighting.
I think this game is ripe for the need of house rules to ensure its fun for a players pain tolerance. I would add ways to earn a 1 up of sorts to start from a spot on the story not the beginning.
So… did you find Ambrozus? Did you find anything in the 1st scenario of drums that even explained or gave you an option to build a building? Did you find anything referencing the 5 generic “objective” cards that you get at the start of the scenario? We didn’t find him, couldn’t find anything referencing how to build a building, and nothing referenced the objective cards. We were SO frustrated with this, that even after playing all of Continent, it left a bad taste in our mouth to never play this again. We triple checked that we were looking for the foot symbol on cards to be sure we were using the right cards, but nothing helped and we couldn’t find anything of value. Any suggestions of what we did wrong? I saw your “goal” images you used here and went back to that card. Nothing there helped us find him, or explained building or anything. I feel we made some massive mistake but we can’t figure it out. :(
Yea that is exactly how I died the first time. I missed the foot card 163. Only figured that out after watching another play through. I can’t quite remember what the objective cards had to with it but do remember them being counted at the end of scenarios as a condition for reward. I did build some building to only have them destroyed by another stupid mechanic but those were related to the hope cards and if you turn them in at the citadel you can move up that track on the sheet with all the symbols. One of those symbols lets you build. However there are different pass fails that are related to what building you have and nowhere that I found gave hints on what buildings I need to have built. Yet another silly luck mechanic that has lasting consequences. Good to know I am not the only person that missed the 163 foot :)
we ventured in the right direction, till we encountered Groundshiver level 5 cards, one of us got killed immediately and we turned around, trying to find a way around. We discovered so much, that it was worh it anyways also figuring our how to really handle the hope reborn cards and learned some lore, that helped us on later sessions. I actually love the fact that you don't know everything and have to walk away from some challanges although they're intriguing.. It makes the stuff you do get to do a lot more important and engaging i think. If you wanna know everything after you played the game you could just turn every card and read it like a book. I also love how every group playing the game has a quite unique experience of their journey and letting those play out in my inner eye is just a treasure!
I have a number of comments; if you were finding it too hard from life points/ you wanted more freedom to just explore you could have lowered the difficulty so that you get more cards per life point. I played the other threat first because that is what they recommend and if anything have found it a little too easy. The ambiguity of solutions is often give to you in the text either on the card or in the story book. I think you potentially missed the rule of compound actions? A lot of the actions that have 2 cards and 6 successes or similar can be done over multiple turns. There is still luck for sure but I’ve found combos of cards that feel a bit busted and always end up finishing way more than the game intends.
All valid points and no I did not miss the compound action rule. Simply put on the threat I played I died twice and the second one is in a scenario that in my mind is an illogical design. It is literally a death trap without luck. I have yet to get a comment from someone that went through that part and said different. Many have admitted to house ruling a pass to keep going. It’s not about being hard it’s having to do all the same stuff over again when you die. For me I don’t have the heart. I have heard from many people they do and that is the beauty of it. There is so much choice out there. There is something for everyone. I did play the “wrong” threat but would do it again because I needed to check my play against another creator that was playing the same threat so I could ensure I was playing everything correctly. This helped as it saved an even earlier quit when I didn’t pull the right version of a card. All in all I am glad you had a better time with it than me and appreciate your thoughtful comments.
Understandable it wasn't really for you! My experience was oddly almost diametrically opposite. We've finished the Dadachaem threat, and... I can't recall any of the coinflips you mention and felt there were always plenty of hints for choices (though some hints, like one of the boxes you are told to deliver, are found in unexpected places!). Rarely via hidden numbers though, those are much more rare than in 7th Continent.
I think reviews like this are ultimately...great! It's good when people can see themselves in reviewers and can tell when a game is not for them. And this game will not be for many people. Like, you really have to pour over the map sometimes - both the tiles and the world map. Lots of people hate that sort of thing.
@@fy8798 very interesting, one thing another person brought up is that I started with the "hard" threat. Maybe that is part of it. So you never had an instance where it asks you to make a decision and the decision you. make "feels" right but punishes you? You never felt like you constantly were inflicted with a status effect and could barely survive? Did you play with no deaths? Also did you play multiplayer player? I wonder how that effects things, while I had more life it doesn't give a Layer of protection when an exploration goes bad you lose that character but still have another. Genuinely interested in your experience...thanks for your thoughtful comment.
@@Neon_GorillaI played it with two players total - it does help talk things over. I think starting on harder threats might also be problematic (assuming Drums is a lot harder) - you benefit a lot from having some basic idea of the continent, especially using shortcuts. Dadachaem teaches you about a few mechanics, such as that in some cases you should explore areas where it's too hard for you due to groundshiver (but not always), and what hints to pay attention to. But there wasn't a decision where we just felt punished unfairly. except, thinking on it, a single exploration event (some guy shouts, and it turns out the guy is doing his business behind a rock and gives you a glare condition for investigating). But the rest, really, weren't. There was one where we ALMOST had a negative effect - we found two places where you got items to deliver. One of those is bad, one is not. The bad one has no inherent hint, other than the place you get it from being very seedy, but we had a hint about that specific tavern from a travelling weirdo who specifically warned us about that delivery, which contained a trap, as it turned out. I did do a solo play of the intro, and there's a number of things to find there that we originally missed. One looked really important, which is funny, because we never found an application for that important info in our Dadachaem playthrough. So while it seems important, I don't have the foggiest clue what it is a clue for :D So for people like me, it's really lovely. I prefer games like Tunic or The Witness over Elden Ring, so maybe that's why it worked a lot better for my friend and me than for you. Which is a shame, really, but I understand the game isn't for everyone. It's a streamlined 7th Continent, and that was already very divisive.
@@fy8798 I am really interested when you play drums if your experience is different. I also had a package with choice to open which I did not mention but was another example of illogical punishment. Your experience makes me want to try dadachaem. In the intro I took on the burden which I mention and missed all the stuff as well because I rushed to the end. Almost died on the jump when doing so lol. You may have convinced me to keep this for now. I am intrigued still. If anything a second chance on another threat might be a good video.
Pretty much my thoughts after I played the first one, which is why I wasnt interested in this one - just seems like a heavy punishment for not playing great, which isnt very discouraging for a new player 'you failed, go back to the start and play this multi hour session again' and yet you have no idea if the few changes you make wont just end up causing you to fail again, just with a new problem to solve. I like solving problems, I dont like being punished with a time sink if I make a mistake - sure I could just go back X steps and repeat, but this is A: not always possible to go back that far, and B: cheating as its not an option in the game, I dont feel successful if I overcome a challenge by cheating.
Sounds a lot like it´s just not designed for "True Solo" - you can´t be good at everything - but you kind of need to be. My comparison would be "Arkham Horror LCG" - you can play it true Solo - but then you are basically playing in Expert-mode and might still get trashed by bad luck. I backed 7th citadel and have not played it yet - but i´m for sure only playing it with 2 Characters.
Yeah I think there might be instances where I could have sacrificed a second character and ultimately survived. I will say it would not have helped on the last scenario I vaguely described. A couple wrong guesses and or failures would have drained both characters.
Did you try the other threat (Dadachaem)? I am on that one and not getting frustrated like you are. I read somewhere (but don’t recall where) that the designers recommend playing Dadachaem first, then Drums second.
There was no way, after the 7th Continent, that I was going to fall for this one again. I am sure that there is an audience for those who like a survival game with exploration elements, that sort of punishes you from playing the game like you assume you will. Its fine. I am sure this is for someone out there, but it just was not for me.
Yeah I kind of want to meet and interview the person that wants this sort of punishment. There has to be a ton. I think it’s 8.8 on BGG. One of the reasons I was willing to pay eBay scalping prices for it.
Great so basically, as much as they say it's no more die and retry like 7th Continent, it's essentially exactly the same, and exactly the same reasons I HATED 7th Continent. As much as they sold it like it's a "fail forward" type system it's still just as frustrating to actually engage in.
After playing the original 7th Continent, I felt that it was basically “curiosity killed the cat” in game form. The trouble is that “curiosity” was my primary motivation for playing the game, but it felt like it was usually punished. The perma-death mechanic made it so that by the time I had invested 15 hours into the game, I was basically unwilling to curiously explore anymore!
You said that so well, I wish I would have thought of that. It exactly felt like curiosity killed the cat. I do wonder if it was more of an open world and rewarded the player to explore would the game have to be twice as big. I get the tension add with perma death it just takes too long to get around in this world I can't imagine having fun doing everything all over again.
While I were playing 7th continent, I found that my "curiosity" is not realistic in the world. Once I imagine I am really fall into such world, some curiosities should be prevent.
Going underground without any preparation or food? Not a good idea.
Something looks really dangerous? Should pass or prepare for it next time.
There are several dead choice which are obviously after all.(or there is some hidden number :p)
7th continent was one of the first modern board games i learned about. It sounded so alluring and i think at some point i will get that or 7th citadel and play them on easy mode as a gentle narrative experience. Great vid!
Thank you! I hope it lands for you,
hey man! my group is also on the drums of desolation threat. We're 4 and i got to say, I think regarding the checks it's got to be a lot easier with more players (bc every one of you is more specialized in specific skills through items and hand cards (which are in sum a lot more, than you could carry in single mode)), so we actually rarely fail a check. Although On a general basis, i think that should be a priority.. It's sensibel to read what the outcome would be to fail and decide to go for the minimum, if its not that bad and vice versa. If the outcome really does a number on you make sure you'll pass it! in the long run, you'll be far better off!
We also had quite the learning curve in the beginning,using every "hope reborn" card to check smt of the progress tree, instead of using them along the way to regain health, which we actually liked. It was kind of a true learning expercience inside the game and it's rules. It's clear how they work, but not what the best way is to use them in a specific point in the scenario. I think it's quite a good decision from the developers to have these cards give you life points (so more cards to play) OR progress (buildings, world map, (reflex) skill cars, mystery numbers), because you want to all use them for progress, but u will have to use a few for life points!
We also had that duell and met a "link of the chain" the previous session that casually mantioned this "honor rule" to kick the loser of a duell, so it felt so good, and rewarding having remembered that fact!
On our first session we weren't able to obtain the goal and felt kind of bad for it, but we learned so much about the world and seemed to understand the world so much better then, that it didn't feel like a fail and that i found amazing!
I'm looking forward to the rest of the story. Up to this point at every session we're all amazed and baffled about the new world content and mechanics we encounter. If you love the world, just play the explorer mode and house rule some things. I played 7th continent that way, because I loved the exploring but also found some parts of it to repetitive, but the actual exploring is worth it in my eyes
I’m glad you found the fun. I won’t ever be able to play this with anyone so my option is to two hand it which I am Luke warm on. I also have very little interest in playing the same thing again, while the world is interesting it is relatively shallow meaning I’m going have to do much the same stuff. This didn’t strike me as very repayable. Either way thanks for sharing and I appreciate you watching!
Yeah, I get your point! Thanks for your perspective!
Nice take. I am trough the introduction scenario and am loving it. Playing on easy mode though (3 cards per life-point). I am also the explorer type and will continue to do what you warned against - explore everything. If I die too much, I will copy the "get me back to live"-rule from 7th Continent -- and just keep on going.
yeah if I had to do it all over again I would do the easy mode. I basically always to normal in everything and it wast even a thought. I hope you enjoy your time in this odd world!!! thanks for watching!
I am actually looking forward to playing it but really appreciated your take and enjoyed your video. You have a new subscriber
I really love when people can appreciate a take and not be offended. I tried to present what is still a very compelling number of positive points as well. Some people to hear that and immediately dislike the video. This game is certainly for some people and I hope you are one of them. Enjoy!
excellent explination! you seemed to put into words what i was *thinking* about this game. of course, i've not played it yet, but your points were ABSOLUTLY what i was feeling while watching play throughs of the 7th citadel. imma pass on this one. thanks!
Appreciate you watching. I will say I am astonished on how well this is rated right now. I might be in the minority.
I really appreciate this take. I haven't played Citadel, but I had massive frustration with Continent for different reasons. Everything in that game causes you to reset the map and explore the same spots over and over and over, to the point that at some point I felt like I wasn't playing a game, but instead was just taking out and putting away cards. Even now I sarcastically refer to it as "Card Sorting The Game"
I didn’t mention it but it felt like I was a librarian constantly putting books away. It is exhausting re exploring the same area. Didn’t feel great to keep skill checking in the area around the citadel the t I had explored countless time. Totally agree.
Great video and review, sorry to hear it didn't land for you but I totally get it. Every point was really well put. What are the games you really enjoy?
I was wondering how you were feeling about it. My game tastes are pretty wide. From Too Many Bones to Castles of Burgandy. I love mechanics and puzzles to solve. Story is last on my list but certainly appreciated. The most recent example would be sleeping gods distant skies. Voidfall is probably my most recent LOVE though. No story all mechanics and strategy. Appreciate you watching.
@@Neon_Gorilla I'm still digging Citadel but I agree with your points on how it comes across. Have you checked out Hadrian's Wall? It's not a mega big game but there is a nice puzzle there.
Yes Hadrians is definitely on the list. My wife and I love roll and writes.
Nice video. The one comment I would make is that as a masochist 😈, the tutorial early chapters gated you (which you didn't like because you wanted to roam free) and then the shackles were taken off just a little and you got lost (and didn't like that). 😝 But yeah different games for different people. So your conclusion is totally valid that if people don't like any of the points you made, then they will probably bounce of the game themselves. But yeah the main emphasis that the game expects from the player is to pay attention to detail and clues.
I didn’t mind the tutorial at all. In fact I loved it. I came out of it being very excited about the game. I only got lost because I pulled the wrong card and really loved the idea about the world opening up. However the rub is that entire first experience could never be replicated because I died. The game actually didn’t open up it just let me explore it to death. I would prefer the game let you get lost in that world and not kill you permanently. The critique might come down to just that. The permadeath mechanic makes you scared to explore and if you want to live you need to go out and back to base asap. I simply don’t have time to play the same 15 hours again. But that’s just me. I totally recognize there are plenty of people that feel different.
So I don't know why you were dying so easily (were you taking a card back after each move?)... but if you are, I'd suggest playing on story mode. It may have been a lot easier for us because we had two people. We normally finished a scenario's objectives and then just had fun wandering and working on side quests. One thing that people don't seem to realize is just how carefully you have to read. We'd write down the number of key passages in the book and refer back to them for clues. And there were often a TON of clues. Many things that seem random are things you get clues about if you talk to the right people. And often there will be something that says 'so-and-so may know something about this' maybe from a map exploration or from an intro or something.. and if you go, then you know how to solve something, and if you don't, you don't know. Sometimes there's things that are tests that are really hard unless you have special knowledge - for example, you may discover information about a plant and it turns out the plant helps greatly with that test. Likewise, sometimes there's knowledge that can help you avoid the status effects of more dangerous areas or encounters.
This sounds very much like 7th Continent in the push and pull of exploration vs survival. It took me a few games of 7th Continent to get good at not dying. I think one big thing about the 7th C series is that you are NOT a murder hobo like in so many other games (Middara, Gloomhaven, etc) and that can be tough for some gamers who expect that one every turn they’re going to annihilate the challenge set before them.
I think that is totally fair. It is clear the designer wants you to struggle. I think the challenge in the game might be deciding what to attempt and be ok with not succeeding much of the time. Love “murder hobo” btw.
It’s not exactly about what you are okay with not succeeding, but what you should spend your time on and what you shouldn’t.
Continent puts a lot of points of interest on your path toward the goal that have nothing to do with the goal and everything to do with the map card. My friends and I figured out after a couple of games that we shouldn’t attempt everything we see but should pick and choose.
Continent comes with a probably chart that anyone should use to get a rough idea of how many cards you need to pull for any challenge. Citadel doesn’t appear to have the same chart. But it helped me early on figure out how many pulls I should put into a particular action. I wonder if Citadel is more focused on getting players to help each other attempt actions to minimize the individual card draws. Continent has a shared action deck.
I’ve played probably 6-7 games of Continent so far in my years owning it.
@@michaelbonet9062 I had a hard time picking and choosing. I really wanted to see what happens with everything:(. Which led to my demise. Probability might have been helpful.
@@Neon_Gorilla picking and choosing is absolutely critical to being successful in the 7th series. I think it’s a better game because of this requirement. There are plenty of murder hobo games out there.
@@michaelbonet9062 still laughing at murder hobo.
One thing about that event card you're talking about, I experienced that event as well but it's kind of alluded to that part of the dueling tradition being expected. I also went to a tavern much later that had gossip around the topic and it informs you of the tradition.
7th Continent was extremely unfair. You could draw a card and have a 50% chance of getting a bad result and that's it. 7th Citadel seems much more layered and nuanced than that. All the information is there, you just have to come across it or dig deep enough. It also often uses what effects you have on you (focused, confused, etc) to determine outcomes along with Luck cards that seemed to skew towards the positive.
Great video and I do hope you dive back into 7th Citadel! I find the game overall very fair and it deeply rewards knowledge.
That is good to know. Like I said in the video it is tough to actually review a game like this because of the info you just gave me. I think that is really cool that the world gives you hints I just wish I didn’t have to start the whole thing over if I dig too deep to find those hints. I think if I do go back it will be with the other threat in a couple months.
@@Neon_Gorilla They do recommend doing Dadachaem's Awakening first, then Drums, then Throne so I imagine Dada's a bit easier. I get where you're coming from because I love exploration too and the game can feel punishing at times but I'm confident they'll give me a chance to explore the whole world and the health and groundshiver limits are there to keep me slightly on track.
@@Piata yeah I did hear that after the fact. Has me slightly intrigued to try that one out. Drums does feel a bit abrupt if a beginning in retrospect. I wonder how many will react to my final scenario once they get to it. I haven’t traded it away yet so there is a chance ;)
Well articulated video by the way. When I was about 3/4 the way through watching I honestly just thought here’s a guy who just wants everything handed to him and basically get an easy ride. Then you got to the scenario that broke you, if I am right does it involve a “a very tall building 😉”? I’ll be honest I house ruled (cheated, it’s my game I do what I want 😁)that one after a few attempts. That scenario is damn near impossible to pass logically and I did get some of the dialogue help legitimately.
I have to say whilst that last element did/can leave a sour taste, I’d skip past and give it another shot. I’m a couple of scenarios past that now and still enjoying it much more than 7th continent.
You might be correct about the scenario :). I wonder how many people "die" there and continue on. I agree with you totally fine to move past that. Its funny each morning I woke up after being beat up the game still pulled at me and after talking about it so much in the comments am starting to soften on my trade designation on BGG :) Glad you pushed through your initial impression on the video, yeah I don't mind difficult and even unfair. I had an entire portion I cut out talking about too many bones and how it will kill you and you have no recourse however the difference is the time "lost" is potentially so much greater here. Thanks for watching.
I could feel your raw emotion as you vaguely described the scenarios.
I am a fan of choose your own adventure style games as well, so I’m curious how my own experience will compare.
Interesting that came across because I really was mentally exhausted after each play through. Have you played 7th continent? I hear it is similarly punishing and a bit more convoluted so if you like that I think this is actually an improvement. I wonder if I made it to the 50 hour mark if this would feel more like a choose your own adventure or an adventure on rails with some interesting side deviations.🤔 I suppose I will need know. Thanks for watching.
@@Neon_Gorilla I did not get a chance to play 7th continent. I heard good things about it and then saw that 7th citadel improves on the system. I did play a bit of tainted grail which at a high level is a similar style of game. So, I’m looking forward to doing some light comparisons to that one.
I hope you enjoy it!
good video, yeah I think you got the tone down! 7th continent did the same thing, exploring too much will kill you. its a big reason why many people bounced off of it. I havent got to this yet, but I have played the 7th citadel and loved it. not sure exactly how this will go, but in the 7th citadel, lots of time opened up once you got a good hunting loop, but even so you never had unlimited time.
as for that last scenario, I cant be sure, but having played the 7th continent, there was probably a clue somewhere telling you what success number you actually needed.
Appreciate that. Yeah I might still go back with new expectations but still scarred.
@@Neon_Gorilla well it's not for everyone and that's ok. Maybe with better expectations you can get a different perspective. But there will always be the risk of failure after 10 plus hours. I'm the kinda person that my first thought after that is "ok I know what I did wrong, time to try again."
but is it still exciting to see much of the same stuff? @@marcbennett9232
@@Neon_Gorilla I haven't played citadel yet, but in continent there were even randomized map tiles. Sometimes a thing would be there, sometimes not. And as much as I like the exploration, I love the puzzle. I remember exploring a cave, going right and running out of energy. My first thought is next time I'm going to get there with more energy and go left. With some curses I would die just as I started to figure out what I needed to do. For me it's more of a challenge than a frustration.
I received this one and Primal within a week of each other. Both were over 3 years since their KS campaigns ended. They are completely different games. For my tastes (which, I think, are similar to yours), Primal is by far superior. Strategic card play, very crunchy decisions, huge boss battler, no dice/luck involved, and very thematic. 7th Citadel is starting to feel repetitive by exploring the same tiles time and time again. We are on scenario 9 of 10 of one threat and will put it away for a while after we finish. Check out Primal if you can. ;)
I mentioned primal in a previous video and I watched a couple op shop playthrough and instantly fell for it. Not sure when I would be able to get my hands on it though. I don’t see many wanting to trade it away at this point.
Interesting to hear you mention Elden Ring, a game which, for me, felt punishing and unfun. It sounds like the game isn't for you, yet the things you say sound like the exact game experience that many people would want. A story based game that isn't guaranteed that you're going to "win" every time. A world where you can learn the landscape and generally what to expect, yet you won't just be seeing the exact same thing every time. A set of mechanics where, as a beginner, you are still able to succeed, even if you're scraping by at the end. My guess is, if you played the exact same scenario from the start again, now knowing what you know, you'd make some different choices, be more prepared for what's coming at the end, and experience different story beats, which is the kind of "replayability" many story games don't have.
Having played 7th continent, I know that the game wasn't what some people wanted. The "timer" in the game (deck of cards running out) means you can't just leisurely explore everything and still complete the goal. I think this is where the tension comes in, since if you could just wander and see everything you wanted, why wouldn't you just exhaust everything, and then never play the scenario ever again? It's so hard to get story games to be replayable, since you have to have things that are different and interesting when someone already knows where the story is going to lead. I'm just glad that this one isn't like 7th continent, where you didn't really have any story, just a vague objective, and you'd spend 20 hours just trying to find where that is, because there was no real direction.
Elden Ring is the easiest souls like. It allowed you to freely explore Limgrave and grind power for as long as you like. I did not find it too difficult if you are leveled. But the big difference is there is no permadeath and you weren’t spending life to explore. The only downfall in exploring is wandering into the wrong corner of the world and you die then start over near by. The stakes in this game to lose progress are significantly different. Variability in this games comes in the form of a few branched decisions but after 15 hours there were maybe 10 banished cards that I couldn’t look at meaning the variability on a second play was mostly around exploration cards which aren’t directly connected to the broader story line. Like I said I can’t even fathom picking this back up and playing the same scenario again. The fun was discovering this word for the first time. I know you love narrative stuff so I am sure it would be more up your alley.
@@Neon_Gorilla That all makes sense. I put 25 hours into Elden Ring, and at no point did it feel really "fun", so I know that type of game isn't for me, and I can see why this game isn't for you. Hopefully you have more fun with Robinson Crusoe, which is famously a game which feels punishing and unfair. When you win, though, the victory is that much sweeter.
Yeah I am a little nervous for RC but punishing is totally fine. Too many bones is exactly that but the difference is it is scenario based. We will see.
I really tried to love 7th Continent, and couldn't, and sounds like what I disliked about it have carried over into 7th Citadel. It feels like "guess what the designer was thinking" and getting punished for just *playing* the game and exploring. I backed the game while I was still learning what sort of games I enjoy (or not), but it is a shame to have waited 3 years for it to deliver, only to now decide to sell it, still in shrink.
Yeah that is how I got the giant complete collection of everdell lol. Crowdfunding and evolving tastes don’t go well together.
I started watching your video as I continued to debate 7th Citadel, and then a limited stock went on sale ahead of the June 2024 Kickstarter and I've ordered it.... I have no restraint. My question is if there is an internal logic to the morality of the world that can be discovered or if the game mechanics (goal of what the game is trying to do to you) are inconsistent and there is no hope of tuning into the morality - and so the choices are arbitrary rather than adhering to an internal logic. Something for me to discover.
I hope you like it, many have. I am not sure about the morality consistency as u certainly didn’t see it but it certainly can be there. I highly recommend not starting with the “drums” threat like I did.
22:00 what you're describing sound actually very stressful. You don't know in advance what weird combination of boosts you'll need so either you must turn back losing time, or you push on and fail. You're not "excitedly barely making it", you're blindly stumbling in a dark cellar kicking things until you find the door.
That's not what I'm looking for in a game.
It reminds me of isofarian guard, where you got to chapter 2 then suddenly everyone wanted metal fragments but they were out of stock. You actually had to gather a bunch from chapter 1. Tough luck. Or bad design.
yeah I think the intention is to add to the mystery and make players feel rewarded for doing something they didn't have to earlier in the game however if the thing that you did not do leads to death or failure it turns a fun feel good moment into a BIG feel bad....I will say I am not sure on the design merits since I did not finish but certainly the design was not for me.
Good take. I myself love the game and disagree with roughly 95% of the reasoning, but I appreciate the constructive critisicm - people who aren't the target audience will probably recognize themselves in the argument and not pay premium prices for something they will end up disliking.
Appreciate you respectfully disagreeing. Yeah I don’t know that it is a matter of this game is good or bad. I think it might be more polarizing than many games and people will firmly find themselves on one side or the other. I am trying to branch out a bit and in my gaming experience and this one missed. You win some you lose some.
I do wonder mildly though if the punishing difficulty you experienced was due to the fact that you didn't start with the suggested first Threat (Dadachaem's Awakening) - that one has a much more reasonable difficulty curve, and I'm quite confident the Drums and Throne were designed with "expert" players in mind.
lol had no idea about that. I just played the one that Canje Studios played so I could go back and check myself after playing through a scenario. Certainly could be that.
It's funny you mentioned Elden Ring, because the game basically conveys the same thing(exploration and finding the way through in an unforgiving and punishing world) as it, but while you like one of them for what they are, you dislike the other for the same thing.
And it really sounds like you played the whole game wrong somehow. Feels like how you messed up your "scenario flag" rule, you did something else wrong, or didn't go into the game with the right mindset. Something feels fishy. Not because you didn't like the game, that's fair, it happens. Your reasons feel weird somehow.
I never felt the grind, always had fun in exploration and making choices, every scenario had something new and cool mechanics kept me going. Never felt punished, unless i did something that i was not supposed to(like go off exploring the wrong way while it clearly stated where i should be looking). It always felt like my decisions, and mistakes, not the game punishing me for no reason. After a few scenarios i learned that if i read everything, thought about what i needed to do, and commited to doing it, i had a lot of spare time to explore. If i didn't prioritise, i had a harder time completing my objectives. Yes the game is somewhat linear in what you need to do, but you do have options most of the time on how you do it. If you brute force something, it's gonna punish you. If you see a hard task ahead, and prepare with the right equipment, and action cards, your will feel smart for doing so and it will make your life a lot easier.
Yeah it's a difficult game. Some of the puzzles are really hard to do, sometimes you waste your time trying something irrelevant, thinking there's something there. But there's always plenty of hints and clues around. And when you "get it" it feels so damn rewarding. And when you fail, know, it's always your damn fault. You should have been faster. You should have prepared the right cards in your hand. You shouldn't have gone into groundshiver 9 territory, with a level 5. You shouldn't have been so curious trying to everything all at once. You are trying to survive out there and help your settlement, not losing 15 life for a magic dragon sword, because it looks cool.
Re elden ring. You die and respawn near by. Exploration is not punished with a possible permanent death. Spend enough time in limgrave grinding levels by the time you get to Morgott he is cake and most of the game you will be properly leveled. It is the easiest souls game in that regard. Re: everything else. Did you play drums an if so how did you get past the final scenario I described (if you know you know) I’m glad you enjoyed it I’m sure many do just not me. Thanks for the thoughtful remarks.
This is more similar to 7th continent than I thought. The first one was really similar to the T.I.M.E. Stories series- where permadeath was a feature and you were supposed to explore. The one that did this mechanic the best, IMO, was Sleeping Gods. At least that one had a definitive ending.
Maybe I should watch the whole video lol. But seriously - both of these are about remembering things from your past "lives" and doing your best.
I can definitely see that feature it’s just one I don’t have time for especially when I didn’t find the moment to moment or digging through cards performing the same skill checks on random exploration times and then filing it all back. The only thing that was exciting to me was the unknown. When that is gone I don’t care to walk around in this world anymore.
the game gets much easier with mutiple charaters, each can have a specialty symbol and as you know they will specailize in certain actions that can afect the cards you keep in hand as across them all to help you prep for those individual chalanges you said you strugel with. you need to do some exploring in fact the first mission for the drums threat requires you to go into areas beyond your ground shiver to sucseed. i think the rails story was added to combat just how lost people got in 7th continent.
that is good to know, I had a feeling that multiplayer might have its benefits but never even thought about the initial chapter build giving you more access. I totally understand the need for ground shiver helping to guide otherwise you will die getting lost I just found it a little less fun. thanks for watching.
This is the type of review I love! Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I am looking forward to getting my copy and we’ll see how it goes. If you have played them, how do you feel about Dawn of the Zeds or Robinson Crusoe? I love them but understand why people bounce off of these games too.
Thanks I really appreciate it. I will say even packing it up and re filing all the cards yesterday I was getting conflicted feeling of wanting to go again. It is odd each day that I came back to it I would actually be looking forward and hopeful that this was the day my luck had changed. Never played either but Robinson is pre ordered right now so I am a little nervous with its reputation and all. I think the difference is it is scenario based and there is not a perma death mechanic that can erase 10s of hours of progress. That is honestly the worst part. I play a ton of too many bones which is also insanely punishing and sometimes unfair but a loss there only erases 2 hours or so. I think this feeling of constant danger and tension is by design and I think if being terrified more and more while playing this game was the goal. They hit it out of the park. Good luck on your play through. Remember pull the right card for the scenario you are in :)
@@Neon_Gorilla Totally makes sense. I’m at the beginning of Tainted Grail (Chapter 3) and having a blast. I haven’t ran into any bad ‘gotcha’ moments yet, but I wonder if something random destroys my campaign 40 hours in how I’ll feel. I guess we’ll see!
@@johnathankokoski do I need to play tainted grail?
@@Neon_Gorilla Yes! With the caveat that I’ve only played 2 Chapters of Fall of Avalon (using 2.0 rules). 😊 The narrative branches, choices are meaningful (time will tell if they are mean….), exploration and story is fantastic, have to pay attention to clues, and I enjoy the card play so far.
@@johnathankokoski yeah I have going back and forth on that one. Thanks for the info!
For pure exploration, I feel like Sleeping Gods has yet to be beaten. I've been enjoying ISS Vanguard so far, but it's not nearly as freeform.
I actually just traded for Iss. I’m excited for that one. Sleeping gods basically lets you do what you want. Certainly a different design philosophy.
I know when I went through the game i was playing battles wrong with that chain icon, because i was never reducing the die, which should have happened each time i got a success. It didn't spell that out in the book but i saw someone else's gameplay and was like oh if i knew i could do that maybe i wouldn't have died trying to escape the intro scenario, lol. Even if that's not the right way i think its how i will try it next time, beause I can't imagine playing it again without some sort of slight fail forward aspect as blowing through the remaining 75% of my life points on one monster battle wasn't fun and just felt frustrating because my solo build wasn't made for fighting.
I think this game is ripe for the need of house rules to ensure its fun for a players pain tolerance. I would add ways to earn a 1 up of sorts to start from a spot on the story not the beginning.
So… did you find Ambrozus? Did you find anything in the 1st scenario of drums that even explained or gave you an option to build a building? Did you find anything referencing the 5 generic “objective” cards that you get at the start of the scenario? We didn’t find him, couldn’t find anything referencing how to build a building, and nothing referenced the objective cards. We were SO frustrated with this, that even after playing all of Continent, it left a bad taste in our mouth to never play this again. We triple checked that we were looking for the foot symbol on cards to be sure we were using the right cards, but nothing helped and we couldn’t find anything of value. Any suggestions of what we did wrong? I saw your “goal” images you used here and went back to that card. Nothing there helped us find him, or explained building or anything. I feel we made some massive mistake but we can’t figure it out. :(
Yea that is exactly how I died the first time. I missed the foot card 163. Only figured that out after watching another play through. I can’t quite remember what the objective cards had to with it but do remember them being counted at the end of scenarios as a condition for reward. I did build some building to only have them destroyed by another stupid mechanic but those were related to the hope cards and if you turn them in at the citadel you can move up that track on the sheet with all the symbols. One of those symbols lets you build. However there are different pass fails that are related to what building you have and nowhere that I found gave hints on what buildings I need to have built. Yet another silly luck mechanic that has lasting consequences. Good to know I am not the only person that missed the 163 foot :)
we ventured in the right direction, till we encountered Groundshiver level 5 cards, one of us got killed immediately and we turned around, trying to find a way around. We discovered so much, that it was worh it anyways also figuring our how to really handle the hope reborn cards and learned some lore, that helped us on later sessions. I actually love the fact that you don't know everything and have to walk away from some challanges although they're intriguing.. It makes the stuff you do get to do a lot more important and engaging i think. If you wanna know everything after you played the game you could just turn every card and read it like a book. I also love how every group playing the game has a quite unique experience of their journey and letting those play out in my inner eye is just a treasure!
I have a number of comments; if you were finding it too hard from life points/ you wanted more freedom to just explore you could have lowered the difficulty so that you get more cards per life point.
I played the other threat first because that is what they recommend and if anything have found it a little too easy.
The ambiguity of solutions is often give to you in the text either on the card or in the story book.
I think you potentially missed the rule of compound actions? A lot of the actions that have 2 cards and 6 successes or similar can be done over multiple turns.
There is still luck for sure but I’ve found combos of cards that feel a bit busted and always end up finishing way more than the game intends.
All valid points and no I did not miss the compound action rule. Simply put on the threat I played I died twice and the second one is in a scenario that in my mind is an illogical design. It is literally a death trap without luck. I have yet to get a comment from someone that went through that part and said different. Many have admitted to house ruling a pass to keep going.
It’s not about being hard it’s having to do all the same stuff over again when you die. For me I don’t have the heart. I have heard from many people they do and that is the beauty of it. There is so much choice out there. There is something for everyone.
I did play the “wrong” threat but would do it again because I needed to check my play against another creator that was playing the same threat so I could ensure I was playing everything correctly. This helped as it saved an even earlier quit when I didn’t pull the right version of a card.
All in all I am glad you had a better time with it than me and appreciate your thoughtful comments.
Understandable it wasn't really for you! My experience was oddly almost diametrically opposite. We've finished the Dadachaem threat, and... I can't recall any of the coinflips you mention and felt there were always plenty of hints for choices (though some hints, like one of the boxes you are told to deliver, are found in unexpected places!). Rarely via hidden numbers though, those are much more rare than in 7th Continent.
I think reviews like this are ultimately...great! It's good when people can see themselves in reviewers and can tell when a game is not for them. And this game will not be for many people.
Like, you really have to pour over the map sometimes - both the tiles and the world map. Lots of people hate that sort of thing.
@@fy8798 very interesting, one thing another person brought up is that I started with the "hard" threat. Maybe that is part of it. So you never had an instance where it asks you to make a decision and the decision you. make "feels" right but punishes you? You never felt like you constantly were inflicted with a status effect and could barely survive? Did you play with no deaths? Also did you play multiplayer player? I wonder how that effects things, while I had more life it doesn't give a Layer of protection when an exploration goes bad you lose that character but still have another. Genuinely interested in your experience...thanks for your thoughtful comment.
@@Neon_GorillaI played it with two players total - it does help talk things over. I think starting on harder threats might also be problematic (assuming Drums is a lot harder) - you benefit a lot from having some basic idea of the continent, especially using shortcuts. Dadachaem teaches you about a few mechanics, such as that in some cases you should explore areas where it's too hard for you due to groundshiver (but not always), and what hints to pay attention to.
But there wasn't a decision where we just felt punished unfairly. except, thinking on it, a single exploration event (some guy shouts, and it turns out the guy is doing his business behind a rock and gives you a glare condition for investigating). But the rest, really, weren't. There was one where we ALMOST had a negative effect - we found two places where you got items to deliver. One of those is bad, one is not. The bad one has no inherent hint, other than the place you get it from being very seedy, but we had a hint about that specific tavern from a travelling weirdo who specifically warned us about that delivery, which contained a trap, as it turned out.
I did do a solo play of the intro, and there's a number of things to find there that we originally missed. One looked really important, which is funny, because we never found an application for that important info in our Dadachaem playthrough. So while it seems important, I don't have the foggiest clue what it is a clue for :D
So for people like me, it's really lovely. I prefer games like Tunic or The Witness over Elden Ring, so maybe that's why it worked a lot better for my friend and me than for you. Which is a shame, really, but I understand the game isn't for everyone. It's a streamlined 7th Continent, and that was already very divisive.
@@fy8798 I am really interested when you play drums if your experience is different. I also had a package with choice to open which I did not mention but was another example of illogical punishment. Your experience makes me want to try dadachaem. In the intro I took on the burden which I mention and missed all the stuff as well because I rushed to the end. Almost died on the jump when doing so lol. You may have convinced me to keep this for now. I am intrigued still. If anything a second chance on another threat might be a good video.
Pretty much my thoughts after I played the first one, which is why I wasnt interested in this one - just seems like a heavy punishment for not playing great, which isnt very discouraging for a new player 'you failed, go back to the start and play this multi hour session again' and yet you have no idea if the few changes you make wont just end up causing you to fail again, just with a new problem to solve.
I like solving problems, I dont like being punished with a time sink if I make a mistake - sure I could just go back X steps and repeat, but this is A: not always possible to go back that far, and B: cheating as its not an option in the game, I dont feel successful if I overcome a challenge by cheating.
My sentiments exactly. You hit it on the head. The thought of replaying the entire 15 hours makes me want to barf.
Sounds a lot like it´s just not designed for "True Solo" - you can´t be good at everything - but you kind of need to be. My comparison would be "Arkham Horror LCG" - you can play it true Solo - but then you are basically playing in Expert-mode and might still get trashed by bad luck.
I backed 7th citadel and have not played it yet - but i´m for sure only playing it with 2 Characters.
Yeah I think there might be instances where I could have sacrificed a second character and ultimately survived. I will say it would not have helped on the last scenario I vaguely described. A couple wrong guesses and or failures would have drained both characters.
Did you try the other threat (Dadachaem)? I am on that one and not getting frustrated like you are. I read somewhere (but don’t recall where) that the designers recommend playing Dadachaem first, then Drums second.
No I haven’t. Giving it a break.
There was no way, after the 7th Continent, that I was going to fall for this one again. I am sure that there is an audience for those who like a survival game with exploration elements, that sort of punishes you from playing the game like you assume you will. Its fine. I am sure this is for someone out there, but it just was not for me.
Yeah I kind of want to meet and interview the person that wants this sort of punishment. There has to be a ton. I think it’s 8.8 on BGG. One of the reasons I was willing to pay eBay scalping prices for it.
Great so basically, as much as they say it's no more die and retry like 7th Continent, it's essentially exactly the same, and exactly the same reasons I HATED 7th Continent. As much as they sold it like it's a "fail forward" type system it's still just as frustrating to actually engage in.
I will say the main story beats allow some fail forward I had to make it back to the citadel to do so and if you run out of life it’s game over.
Git gud bruh
I know right.