Damn Helbrecht really puts the Lion to shame.. simply onehands the same profile as a sweeping primarch with only 4 less attacks at not even 100 points.
@@CaranelenI mean, the only really bad things about the codex are that the lion is overpriced and that the DWK are overpriced and capped at 5 Ravenwing seems pretty good GW will buff them once the sales start dropping for one of the main legions
@@Goblinhandler And the DW terminators lose TH / claws while increasing price, DW command squad gone, DW strikemaster gone, RW talonmaster gone and land speeder vengeance massively nerfed. And the DW knights are more than overpriced, dmg2 with AP1 is outrageously bad even if the price didn't increase. The new inner circle companions looks like vaslty inferior bladeguards. Sadly, I can't see buffs coming, other than price drops, but a lot of them would have to drop massively before they become usable. I agree that RW doesn't look that bad, but the only unit that still seems always good is Azrael, as he already was.
@@bennetttan8535 Yes, we do, and it's a beautiful model, but he's the only primarch which is only usable in casual games because of his excessive cost relative to his stats
Definitely a less than comfortable time to be a SM player, if you have a big first born collection your either looking for your favorite editions books to set that collection aside to play under those rules, or looking at selling hours worth of effort hobby'ing simply to modernize it with primaris stuff, not a great feeling really.
I play templars, and I love that the unique units feel the way they should feel fluff wise, no matter if the army is at the top or bottom of the current ranking. I just have a lot of fun playing them, trying all kinds of lists against my friends. Most of the games are either a glorious carnage, destroying the enemy entirely, or getting stomped in turn 3. But I agree that some units should rise in price!
They had the hands down best codex in 9th in terms of balance, faction-unique rules, and the absolute perfect number of unique units and characters to make them stand out and feel original. Loving their treatment in 10th so far, although both crusader squad variants do feel very under costed atm. They also either seem to do perhaps a tad _too good_ also outside of their own, unique detachment, for my taste, or perhaps other chapters aren't doing good enough... Never been a fan of Salamanders, but I'm low-key pissed that only BT's vehicles get those extra Meltas, seeing how the Pyreblasters have finally become available via Infernus Squad. It also breaks my heart, that Lightning Claws on Primaris have so far been only available (on non-character models) on that one Sword Brethren model - even if the weapon profiles have been "simplified", it's still a damn shame that at least the new Jump Pack Assault Intercessors haven't got any, not to mention Assault Termies...
I think Firstborn Crusader Squads really are a bit of a fly in the ointment of free upgrades. It seems like GW priced them based, at least partially, on the effectiveness of large numbers kitted out for Assault, at which they're not a very good option.
I run a 2500 pointer myself. helbrecht paired with 10 sword brethren always devastating. a stormraven dropping assault centurions and a brutalis dreadnought witth ballistus + redemptor laying down covering fire is the main tactic. templar vows can give some pretty godly melee buffs (lethal/sustained hits). grimaldus and 10x infernus is a deathblock of mush exterminators pushing up with cover from 5x sternguard and the apothecary biologis+ combi lietenant wreaking havoc. another 5 infernus pushing provides a tactical distraction for bigger models. finally, 10x termies+cap in termie armour to take out monsters/vehicles+ anti tank, and provide support for the aforementioned centurions if necessary. I'm struggling to choose which units i should get to cap it off at 3000 points. Maybe emperor's champion+ primaris apothecary + asault intercessors? any input from experienced/ tournament players would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
Well "fun" is relative. It's super fun for BT players, but less so for the people playing against them. Just like with Eldar absurdities and C'tan obscenities.
@@JimH. It's not even fun for BT players. These meta lists use a ton of Firstborn Crusaders - a unit that should have been removed but for some reason are not only still in the game, but also absurdly undercosted. Without them, I bet the Templars winrate would be in line wit the other space marine factions.
@petroffbg I disagree, even without the first born Crusaders, the primaris ones are still fantastic for their cost. All it would change is now BT would need substitutes for their heavy shooting. Which they can accomplish with their MM free vehicles
this is literally perfect timing, i was debating wat my second army should be and i was torn between black templars, sisters and tau. guess this helps me alot thanks!
It sucks that the dark angels are being out done by black templars. Like lion el'jonson should be cutting them down left and right. But to be fair he wasn't in stasis. But the dark angels have there primarch back. So yah not all bad. For loyalty is, it's own reward 🦁💚.
I picked up templars pre 10th edition for the lore and looks. Glad they seem to be fun in game, I’ve never played yet. I gotta finish the army and get playing before they get nerfed 😂
Not a single of these list running Infiltrators. Thought these were almost a must pick? Anyone can enlighten me? Together with Scouts and Aggressors it's the only unit I don't have to make a similar list like the ones shared here but now I'm not sure it's really necessary.
Firstborn Crusaders shouldn't be a thing. They should have been Legend-ed at the start of the edition. They are spammed in every list. They artificially prop up the winrate. And you'd be crazy to invest in them, considering they will be gone sooner rather than later.
@@salvalente9378they're still not getting replaced by something new because they already have a replacement. If you think there has to be a 1-1 port, ask DA players how that went with their refresh lol
So I’m new to 40k and I chose to play black templars.. now what I’m confused about is how are people changing the weapons on the different models.. do you just determine what they are using before the game starts or do you actually have to build the model with the weapons and if it’s this than how do you go about getting those particular model pieces to change them?
Hey Auspex if i type in the las vegas list in new recrute it gives me 2100 points. I've triple checked it. 6 aggressors is really expensive 240 points. Plus i dont understand why so many transports. There's not enough troops to fill them all. It would be gret is someone could shed some light on this.
Good thing when GW realizes that they've balanced a faction nearly perfectly, they use it as a baseline to bring all of the other factions online, creating a fair and cohesive ecosystem for the game...just kidding, hang onto your tabards my (sword) brethren, we're about to get nerfed into the dirt.
For special moves such as deep strike, infiltrators, and scout, all individual models in a unit must have that ability on their own datacard or they can’t use that special rule. So if you join a leader (like grimaldus) who doesn’t have scout to a unit that does, they can no longer use the scout move
That first list makes me wish I ran Black Templars instead of UM. I love the battle company aesthetic with transports but the Impulsor without the MM and without a decent 5 man option worth transporting is just bad.
Helbrecht with the sword bros is an insane unit however if you put helbrecht anywhere else it goes from great to good. He has no mobility to roll the unit at full strength its 320 points if your missing any part of that unit they pretty much get blown off the board I love BTs they have been my favorite chapter since i can remember but this unit is only strong at one thing meele and thats only if you run them with an impulsor sword bros and helbrecht.
I want to start an army.. I like like Grey knights but honestly I want custodes.. seems like they ain't worth it.. I've also thought about black templars.. theybare 3rd on my list for wanted... idk where to start honestly
just start what you want most, dont chase the meta.. if you pick the army love, but it isnt in a good spot right now, their a high chance it's going to be good by the time you're done building and painting your army
@@sheeemt399custodes are certainly the best decision money wise since all of their models soak so many points for relatively little money. Also, you can get almost every datasheet on the internet
Eh, I doubt they get anything close to a nerf. 45%-55% WR is right in that comfort zone where GW tends to leave things alone. They did in the last balance slate
@@starlord157 in this case yes, you can use any normal space marine detachment for a BT army. Some players favor using the ironstorm spearhead detachment because Templars have some really cool tanks
I frequently play a terminator chaplain with Tanhausers bones and 10 terminators, as well as 20 crusaders with grimaldus. It’s great to have 2 super tough and scary melee units running around. Im kinda down on sword brethren because i feel like the only way they work is if they have a land raider in the righteous crusaders detachment. Also, 5 sword brethren and a character such as helbrecht is around 240 points and they usually don’t make their points back in my experience, especially if you aren’t using the lethal hits or sustained hits vow.
@@AriousArchaic yes, they melt everything they touch, but that doesn’t mean they make their points back. 5 sword bros on their own are alright but they definitely won’t kill anything big. When they get a character like Helbrecht or EC, then they become really dangerous but like i said, thats a expensive combo thats high risk high reward.
@Rick-bd3qd 235 points is an extremely good value, 5 PSB/helbrecht can take down a knight. Not sure I'd you've seen the math but it is truly very powerful
Would love to see 4 strong dark angels lists, using their faction units ... maybe even not using azrael (as he is now the only reason, why one would play dA)
The best list is +100 2 wound models + some fire support. Grimaldus, Helbrecht, Leutnant with the Bone, 90 primaris crusaders, 2x5 scouts and 1 gladiator lancers for fire support
As a Black Templars player I think some good changes would be: 1. Helbrecht should either go up 40-50pts or have his sweep profile lose 2 attacks and an ap along with going up 25pts 2. For sword brethern they just need a cost increase, probably in the 3pt range. 3. Black Templar Vehicles should probably go up to 10pts more than their multimelta-less vanilla variants. I feel like that is a good middle between nerfing basically free MMs and not punishing BT players for playing their vehicles. Alternatively the solution I like better is all marine vehicles just getting the damn multi-meltas and forgetting that being a BT specific thing. 4. For FB crusaders I think the solution is just make them take 5 neophytes with the initial squad or fix their specials and heavies to work like regular tacticals. Also a point or two up. 5. Primaris Crusaders is honestly one of the most borked profiles in the Index and one I think regardless of points needs to be fixed. The scout move I think is a little bit overkill for their mobility when they get the re-rolls. Their chainswords should lose an attack because five is ridiculous and the fact that the sword brother's power sword only gets 3 has convinced me it was a typo they never fixed. Like they took the chainsword profile from the Sword Brethren because originally he was going to be able to take that before they changed it to just the power sword. Also decreasing the attacks might actually make the bolt weapons decent on the Initiates at least. I think the Pyre Blaster just needs to not compete with the power fist for slots.
Damn Helbrecht really puts the Lion to shame.. simply onehands the same profile as a sweeping primarch with only 4 less attacks at not even 100 points.
If the DA codex is any indication, I expect BT unique units to get nerfed straight to hell.
@@CaranelenI mean, the only really bad things about the codex are that the lion is overpriced and that the DWK are overpriced and capped at 5
Ravenwing seems pretty good
GW will buff them once the sales start dropping for one of the main legions
@@Goblinhandler And the DW terminators lose TH / claws while increasing price, DW command squad gone, DW strikemaster gone, RW talonmaster gone and land speeder vengeance massively nerfed. And the DW knights are more than overpriced, dmg2 with AP1 is outrageously bad even if the price didn't increase. The new inner circle companions looks like vaslty inferior bladeguards.
Sadly, I can't see buffs coming, other than price drops, but a lot of them would have to drop massively before they become usable.
I agree that RW doesn't look that bad, but the only unit that still seems always good is Azrael, as he already was.
At least y'all have a primarch
@@bennetttan8535 Yes, we do, and it's a beautiful model, but he's the only primarch which is only usable in casual games because of his excessive cost relative to his stats
First ( I have no life)
Well played there :)
I’m so reluctant to buy any first born crusader squads. They’re great but you know they’ll be going legends sooner rather than later.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they got axed in the codex supplement for templars
Yeah, they kind of feel like a 'last hoorah' for strong tactical marines right now...
@@Rick-bd3qdyeah 100%
They’ve survived four editions since primaris and make up the majority of most BT collections
GW isn’t that stupid
Definitely a less than comfortable time to be a SM player, if you have a big first born collection your either looking for your favorite editions books to set that collection aside to play under those rules, or looking at selling hours worth of effort hobby'ing simply to modernize it with primaris stuff, not a great feeling really.
I play templars, and I love that the unique units feel the way they should feel fluff wise, no matter if the army is at the top or bottom of the current ranking. I just have a lot of fun playing them, trying all kinds of lists against my friends. Most of the games are either a glorious carnage, destroying the enemy entirely, or getting stomped in turn 3. But I agree that some units should rise in price!
As a Templar player, I hate the fact that some of the best ways to play Templars is a shooty gun line army
I was hoping for a Black Templar Army list, thank you!
They had the hands down best codex in 9th in terms of balance, faction-unique rules, and the absolute perfect number of unique units and characters to make them stand out and feel original.
Loving their treatment in 10th so far, although both crusader squad variants do feel very under costed atm. They also either seem to do perhaps a tad _too good_ also outside of their own, unique detachment, for my taste, or perhaps other chapters aren't doing good enough...
Never been a fan of Salamanders, but I'm low-key pissed that only BT's vehicles get those extra Meltas, seeing how the Pyreblasters have finally become available via Infernus Squad.
It also breaks my heart, that Lightning Claws on Primaris have so far been only available (on non-character models) on that one Sword Brethren model - even if the weapon profiles have been "simplified", it's still a damn shame that at least the new Jump Pack Assault Intercessors haven't got any, not to mention Assault Termies...
I think Firstborn Crusader Squads really are a bit of a fly in the ointment of free upgrades. It seems like GW priced them based, at least partially, on the effectiveness of large numbers kitted out for Assault, at which they're not a very good option.
As a new 40k player who chose black templars, I really appreciate your videos.
I run a 2500 pointer myself. helbrecht paired with 10 sword brethren always devastating. a stormraven dropping assault centurions and a brutalis dreadnought witth ballistus + redemptor laying down covering fire is the main tactic. templar vows can give some pretty godly melee buffs (lethal/sustained hits). grimaldus and 10x infernus is a deathblock of mush exterminators pushing up with cover from 5x sternguard and the apothecary biologis+ combi lietenant wreaking havoc. another 5 infernus pushing provides a tactical distraction for bigger models. finally, 10x termies+cap in termie armour to take out monsters/vehicles+ anti tank, and provide support for the aforementioned centurions if necessary. I'm struggling to choose which units i should get to cap it off at 3000 points. Maybe emperor's champion+ primaris apothecary + asault intercessors? any input from experienced/ tournament players would be greatly appreciated. Thank you
Big PP model will get you to 3000 points.
Incoming nerfs. Gw doesn't like fun
Well "fun" is relative. It's super fun for BT players, but less so for the people playing against them. Just like with Eldar absurdities and C'tan obscenities.
@@JimH. It's not even fun for BT players. These meta lists use a ton of Firstborn Crusaders - a unit that should have been removed but for some reason are not only still in the game, but also absurdly undercosted.
Without them, I bet the Templars winrate would be in line wit the other space marine factions.
@petroffbg I disagree, even without the first born Crusaders, the primaris ones are still fantastic for their cost. All it would change is now BT would need substitutes for their heavy shooting. Which they can accomplish with their MM free vehicles
@@flameski_these lists aren't even close to Eldar broken lists
I take imperial knight crusader as big shooting thig
this is literally perfect timing, i was debating wat my second army should be and i was torn between black templars, sisters and tau. guess this helps me alot thanks!
If I was you I’d wait for the point changes, we might loose a lot of viability in our best units :(
@@user9o2hey I’m very new to this, where can I find info like that? I’m scared to start buying lol
It sucks that the dark angels are being out done by black templars. Like lion el'jonson should be cutting them down left and right. But to be fair he wasn't in stasis. But the dark angels have there primarch back. So yah not all bad. For loyalty is, it's own reward 🦁💚.
Four firstborn crusader squad full melta is what I like!!
I picked up templars pre 10th edition for the lore and looks. Glad they seem to be fun in game, I’ve never played yet. I gotta finish the army and get playing before they get nerfed 😂
Best faction to play. Thank god I chose to not play ultramarines lol
Not a single of these list running Infiltrators. Thought these were almost a must pick? Anyone can enlighten me?
Together with Scouts and Aggressors it's the only unit I don't have to make a similar list like the ones shared here but now I'm not sure it's really necessary.
Firstborn Crusaders shouldn't be a thing. They should have been Legend-ed at the start of the edition. They are spammed in every list. They artificially prop up the winrate. And you'd be crazy to invest in them, considering they will be gone sooner rather than later.
That or they will get new models and renamed
@@salvalente9378 They DID get new models - the Primaris Crusader Squad. But the Firstborn are cheaper and come with more weapon options.
@@flameski_ I feel like they are different enough because of that they might be remade to some other unit in black templars
@@salvalente9378they're still not getting replaced by something new because they already have a replacement. If you think there has to be a 1-1 port, ask DA players how that went with their refresh lol
FBCS haven't even had models for years, its so weird that they kept them in the Index
Does terminator good for ours crusader boiz? I saw few good recomment list dont have terminator in it
Firestorm Assault Force - :D
Boltstorm Aggressors - D:
Last time I was this early I thought of a better comment
100% when the black templar codex comes out the First born crusader squad is going to be removed to sell more primaris.
If so I will just use legends
Bold of you to do this video just before a Dataslate.
So I’m new to 40k and I chose to play black templars.. now what I’m confused about is how are people changing the weapons on the different models.. do you just determine what they are using before the game starts or do you actually have to build the model with the weapons and if it’s this than how do you go about getting those particular model pieces to change them?
It all comes in the box, than you glue on what weapon you want that particular model to have
Hey Auspex if i type in the las vegas list in new recrute it gives me 2100 points. I've triple checked it.
6 aggressors is really expensive 240 points.
Plus i dont understand why so many transports.
There's not enough troops to fill them all.
It would be gret is someone could shed some light on this.
Good thing when GW realizes that they've balanced a faction nearly perfectly, they use it as a baseline to bring all of the other factions online, creating a fair and cohesive ecosystem for the game...just kidding, hang onto your tabards my (sword) brethren, we're about to get nerfed into the dirt.
Does anyone know more about grimaldus negating the scout move?
For special moves such as deep strike, infiltrators, and scout, all individual models in a unit must have that ability on their own datacard or they can’t use that special rule. So if you join a leader (like grimaldus) who doesn’t have scout to a unit that does, they can no longer use the scout move
@@Wind-Whistler much appreciated
That first list makes me wish I ran Black Templars instead of UM. I love the battle company aesthetic with transports but the Impulsor without the MM and without a decent 5 man option worth transporting is just bad.
Helbrecht with the sword bros is an insane unit however if you put helbrecht anywhere else it goes from great to good. He has no mobility to roll the unit at full strength its 320 points if your missing any part of that unit they pretty much get blown off the board I love BTs they have been my favorite chapter since i can remember but this unit is only strong at one thing meele and thats only if you run them with an impulsor sword bros and helbrecht.
I want to start an army.. I like like Grey knights but honestly I want custodes.. seems like they ain't worth it.. I've also thought about black templars.. theybare 3rd on my list for wanted... idk where to start honestly
just start what you want most, dont chase the meta.. if you pick the army love, but it isnt in a good spot right now, their a high chance it's going to be good by the time you're done building and painting your army
@@TauEnjoyer ty.. I'll go woth the golden boys aka custodes.... ty 🙏
good choice! it's a pretty cheap army to build and not too hard to paint i think!@@sheeemt399
@@TauEnjoyer I've seen crazy deals on ebay for custodes.. I do t know the rules or how to play... where do I start? seems like this channel
@@sheeemt399custodes are certainly the best decision money wise since all of their models soak so many points for relatively little money. Also, you can get almost every datasheet on the internet
Kind of weird to post this a few days before the balance slate wherein we know all these units are going to have massive adjustments in points
Eh, I doubt they get anything close to a nerf. 45%-55% WR is right in that comfort zone where GW tends to leave things alone. They did in the last balance slate
I like your army list content better than all the immediate news items. Just saying. They also seem more enjoyable for you to make as well.
So, how do you use black templar units, with regular space marine detachment?
They get the Righteous Crusaders detachment. This means Psykers are banned and you get to choose one of four templar vows each battle
@@donaldtrumpscat2443I think he means the reverse. You use one of the generic space marine detachments and can use BT characters and units .
@@starlord157 in this case yes, you can use any normal space marine detachment for a BT army. Some players favor using the ironstorm spearhead detachment because Templars have some really cool tanks
Isn’t helbrect 120 pts ? Is on my app
This was made before the Dataslate.
Of course they win
my boys. :) I just love how flexible my army is in this edition.
Most fun faction to play
I frequently play a terminator chaplain with Tanhausers bones and 10 terminators, as well as 20 crusaders with grimaldus. It’s great to have 2 super tough and scary melee units running around.
Im kinda down on sword brethren because i feel like the only way they work is if they have a land raider in the righteous crusaders detachment. Also, 5 sword brethren and a character such as helbrecht is around 240 points and they usually don’t make their points back in my experience, especially if you aren’t using the lethal hits or sustained hits vow.
I mean. Jack harpster took them to great effect . So really not true.
@@GaryP336 i didn’t say sword bros are bad i just said im not a big fan of them atm?
Idk how you're not seeing results with them. They delete anything they touch in melee. They melt custodes, knights and vehicles
@@AriousArchaic yes, they melt everything they touch, but that doesn’t mean they make their points back. 5 sword bros on their own are alright but they definitely won’t kill anything big. When they get a character like Helbrecht or EC, then they become really dangerous but like i said, thats a expensive combo thats high risk high reward.
@Rick-bd3qd 235 points is an extremely good value, 5 PSB/helbrecht can take down a knight. Not sure I'd you've seen the math but it is truly very powerful
Would love to see 4 strong dark angels lists, using their faction units ... maybe even not using azrael (as he is now the only reason, why one would play dA)
good coverage
Great rundown!
Second.... slightly more life ;)
Add a comment...
The best list is +100 2 wound models + some fire support. Grimaldus, Helbrecht, Leutnant with the Bone, 90 primaris crusaders, 2x5 scouts and 1 gladiator lancers for fire support
And yet none of the top placing lists used anything close to that.
As a Black Templars player I think some good changes would be:
1. Helbrecht should either go up 40-50pts or have his sweep profile lose 2 attacks and an ap along with going up 25pts
2. For sword brethern they just need a cost increase, probably in the 3pt range.
3. Black Templar Vehicles should probably go up to 10pts more than their multimelta-less vanilla variants. I feel like that is a good middle between nerfing basically free MMs and not punishing BT players for playing their vehicles. Alternatively the solution I like better is all marine vehicles just getting the damn multi-meltas and forgetting that being a BT specific thing.
4. For FB crusaders I think the solution is just make them take 5 neophytes with the initial squad or fix their specials and heavies to work like regular tacticals. Also a point or two up.
5. Primaris Crusaders is honestly one of the most borked profiles in the Index and one I think regardless of points needs to be fixed. The scout move I think is a little bit overkill for their mobility when they get the re-rolls. Their chainswords should lose an attack because five is ridiculous and the fact that the sword brother's power sword only gets 3 has convinced me it was a typo they never fixed. Like they took the chainsword profile from the Sword Brethren because originally he was going to be able to take that before they changed it to just the power sword. Also decreasing the attacks might actually make the bolt weapons decent on the Initiates at least. I think the Pyre Blaster just needs to not compete with the power fist for slots.