The definition I keep coming back to comes from an interview from Peter Cullen about how he chose his voice for Optimus Prime. One of the creators/directors basically told him to “be strong enough to be gentle” and I’ve lived with that knowledge since, it’s helped a lot in my life.
Let me guess. That was from his interview during the Netflix documentary called “The Toys that Made Us” for the Transformers episode. I liked that quote too.
This reminds me of the quote "if you don't hurt others but you're not capable of doing harm anyway, you're not a pacifist, you're harmless." Not that being harmless is wrong or bad, but there's a different kind of strength in having power but choosing to use it to be kind and do good in the world instead of destroying and controlling.
It’s funny because even as a women I have felt the hardships and drawbacks of what it is like to fill that masculine role. My family members look up to me as a role model. I need to always be dependable because everyone around me looks up to me and relies on me for support. My opinion matters. I’m also a big protector, for me it’s super important to take care of those I care about. Constantly playing the stoic role is really damaging however. I easily deal with other peoples emotions on a daily basis but it is so so hard for me to be able to open up and express my emotions to others. It doesn’t feel safe. I feel I have to always be strong and I can never show a sign of weakness. I talk about my emotions but I always make sure to keep my distance when I do so. It’s a lot of pressure and I can really sympathize and empathize with men for that reason.
This comment really speaks to me. I hope you find places to feel safe. As an older brother I sometimes I wish I had older brothers to be the dependable ones.
I hope you find someone you can feel safe enough around. I can relate a lot with what you said, after 2 years of therapy I can now open up to anyone in my family for example, but it was hard reaching this is point.
Stoicism and responsibility aren't just male traits. You might be feeling that way because society has succesfully hidden the responsibility of women and the historical western female culture from you. Women have just as much responsibility as men, but the roles and the nature of how they deal with that should be different. You might find that if you relinquish your male ideas of how to be successful you might actually find it easier to be that person other people need you to be.
What really resonated with me was the fact that the “healthy” should be prioritized more than the “masculinity” or “femininity”. Too often, I see people do the opposite, becoming caricatures of what they believe to be the gender role they identify with
fr fr. too many people identify with the sex they are first before they identify with the fact that they are a person. I saw someone else in this section say that they generally believe that being a man is having confidence in who you are as a person rather than it being what you do. And honestly I agree.
I think the reason why is because we have to separate the two to understand them and apply them to our lives. It's like a light switch - when you turn on the light you also "turn off" the darkness, and when you turn off the light you "turn on" the darkness. The two sides are both valid and true but cannot coexist together because they are opposites. In the same way, e.g. it's considered a masculine trait to stand up for yourself and your friends when someone does you or them wrong, but it is much more feminine to freeze or run away from fear. You can't do both, but sometimes there are situtations where it's better to stand up for yourself, and other times when it's better to just walk or run away. It could be a life or death situation that you need to be wise about. And so there is a time and a place for everything, you just need wisdom to know the difference.
Tbh, I think people focus on masculine part because they think being "masculine" will help them get laid or have a relationship while being "healthy" is all about self. Totally not true.
I see the exact opposite where genders are becoming obsolete bc of the intense push for gender equality. Men becoming more feminine and women becoming more masculine. And now nobody is happy bc they’re trying too hard to conform to societal expectations.
@@Delta_2512 women are weak, men are strong - that's why masculine traits are those that involve things like fighting and female traits are those that avoid conflict
I know a lot of guys in real life - like family members and friends, for example - who I would say show traits of "healthy masculinity". Those guys are both confident and humble at the same time, and they follow their ambitions and remain calm and collected when they have disagreements with people, and they will immediately defend their friends if they are in danger in some way.
Every time I think of healthy masculine traits I eventually come to the conclusion that those traits are beneficial for everyone. Why shouldn't we expect both our sons and daughters to be assertive when necessary, pick up survival and first aid skills, cook healthy meals, be able to jump a car/change a tire, stay physically active, be able to support people when they're down, be proud of their accomplishments, be able to financially support themselves, be nurturing and protective of children, etc?
Imo it's hard to balance those all in reality and to do all of them with best ability all put into a single person. However, that is probably a good ideal. In my mind though, if I have a (female) partner then I see it as if she has maximal feminine abilities and I have maximal masculine abilities, then we can do so much more as a pair than if I were to create a balance within myself as a lone person.
@@gumfun2 The labor doesn't have to be divided along gendered lines. The best person in the relationship should do each respective job, as long as everything stays about equal. I wouldn't take charge of finances if my SO was a great accountant.
Masculinity and femininity aren't prescriptive, they're descriptive. Traditionally masculine virtues are an emergent pattern; "what do admirable men tend to have in common?" The social mandate to adjust to that comes after, not the other way around. So yes, both genders should aspire to both masculine and feminine virtues.
@@Herosoyyo2 they are both presciptive and discriptive at the same time, they emerge intertwined, together, and it's impossble to separate them, just like it's impossible to dissect a living thing while it's still alive.
I'm very lucky that even though I'm a single mom, my own father is the best male role model that my kids can have. Because he's not just a man who has "healthy masculinity", he's a good human being. He's the kind of person I want to be.
@@ilikepancakes2368 Rare to see such a childish, judgeing comment on an HG video. you know two people are involved in a relationship, right? OP's partner could have easily been the one at fault, or both people. We don't know anything, OP's partner could've died or something. Seems your father wasn't the best either with you leaving comments like this.
@@vickysmashesyouwithahammer Put those two quotes from AGamerMom00! together: "my own father is the best male role model that my kids can have" and "He's the kind of person I want to be." I can sense some problem there :) If I was her partner, I'd run like hell.
@@vickysmashesyouwithahammer Oh yeah sure. Cause a woman can get pregnant by accident right? Please. Based on what I’ve seen, women who end up as single mothers tend to fall for the same type of guy which is why I said her father probably failed her if he didn’t set the guideline on which men will be better to reproduce with. But then again, a father can only teach so much to a daughter that sometimes, a woman’s delusion will just end up getting the best of her and that is how you end up having a pattern of single mothers.
For my part, "toxic masculinity" is just like "toxic courage". Aristotle spent a lot of papyrus talking about the virtues, and how a virtue is the "golden middle" between two excesses. If he hadn't had a word already for "excess of courage" (I think the usual English translation is "recklessness" or "foolhardiness", but since I've never read Nichomachean Ethics in English, I'm not entirely sure), I don't see why he wouldn't have used "toxic courage" to describe what he was going on about. While courage (the virtue) is for example displayed in running into a burning building to save someone, "toxic courage" would be running into a burning building just to show that you can, that you're not afraid of fire (or death). I also don't see why "masculinity" shouldn't be considered a virtue on its own, or at least a broad term for a collection of virtues and how they're "properly" displayed in a masculine person (the "proper display" being in some way tempered by our culture). Too much and it's "toxic", too little and it's, I don't know, "weak"?
Great episode. I like Cinema Therapy’s episode Aragorn vs Toxic Masculinity. I love the line “you can decapitate orcs and write poetry. Yah, they’re not mutually exclusive”
but if he didn't decapitate orcs and only did poetry would he still be considered a manly man? the "kill X group" is doing a lot of the heavy lifting here don't you think?
I like listening to you because you have the right idea; men and women should be working together to solve the problems that society has placed upon us oftentimes by tradition. None of this oppression olympics stuff; we're all human and there are problems we all have, and we need to work together to fix them particularly in a world that moves as quickly as ours.
I feel as though men and women are balancing these strengths, and “boys and girls”/“males and females” are combating weaknesses. “Man” is an ideal you hold in your mind, same with “Woman.” When I grew up, though I was in a traditional household, I had mostly negative male peers and role models. Still, no major extremes, so I’m grateful for that. I turned to building up strengths in a sort of feminine sphere, to learn acceptance and appreciation and move away from cynicism and resentment. I’ve been fighting with resentment my entire life. Self acceptance was the real challenge, the hidden goal, and it has been a long 10 years of confronting it after identifying my ego as something that could destroy me.
I didn't have a dad growing up. I had to develop an idea of masculinity on my own. The most important part of masculinity or gender identity itself is confidence in your identity. Everything I do is masculine, and I'm comfortable with it. I may not be apt as a mechanic or other hands on work, but I'm a man and am comfortable with it. I think it applies universally to men, women and nb persons. Simply owning who you are is a successful adaptation into your gender role.
I didnt have a dad either, so i havent had a sense of identity for pretty much my whole life. Im turning 23 and ive only started feeling confident about 2 months ago. My masculinity is something im still trying to discover, but overall, my newfound confidence will help me find it, that identity for me.
I really like the part at the end where you say that women get judged by other people either for staying home or for choosing a career and not having kids and that what we can all do as humans is stop judging ourselves because others will always judge. Would love to see a video going more into depth on that. I think a lot of men and women feel like we can't win. I think it's great that society is starting to recognize that any gender can do anything, but now it seems like we are expected to do EVERYTHING, and that gets overwhelming.
@Terrorists Win Why are that the only two options? That's stupid. Why can't people in a relationship just decide amongst themselves who gets to do what? It's either "we take your autonomy as a person away" or being exploited by a heartless system? Why? How is that fair for anyone? Seems like that would make people miserable regardless of gender. Also, why are you pretending that like being a housewife is inherently easier? Do you have any idea how much shit women have to clean? Especially when they have children? If the amount of labor is unequally distributed and one of the people in the relationship doesn't like that, why can't they just talk? Why do any rights need to be taken away? As for the shitty things men have to do: why don't we stop oppressing men instead of being like: "Let's oppress both genders"? Why not make things better for everyone? Nobody needs to sacrifice themselves for shitty jobs if we actually stood up together. We can build something better.
'it's great that society is starting to recognize that any gender can do anything' im sorry but thats been a thing for a long time. if anything its starting to go backwards these days due to the polarisation on each side. also, what do you mean by you are expected to do everything?
I was literally talking about this with some of my gym bros not too long ago. We were able to shift one of our friends out of this "work out to be an alpha" mindset to a "work out because its good for you" kind of mindset. This stupid "alpha male" mindset is so poisonous to men.
Well its a mental response of heavy anti men rhetoric , where men = toxic masculinity= potential rapist and mysoginist. Right now the net in not really favorable to the young men , so they choose distant communities where they are told that they are not the problem , but the world is. Which is a problem too , cuz those communities may turn radical too, where red pill and black pill comes from.
@@AFunkyFella dogs don't even do this bullshit. From what I know, pack structures are lead by seniority (I.e. mom and dad lead the pack) I might be wrong tho
Yeah I agree. It is ridiculous. I work out for myself and myself alone. If that makes me alpha, whatever, if I am beta to someone, whatever. It is all so childish.
@@Wyrm3 AFAIR this happens to wolves in captivity. But researching animal social structures in captivity is equal to researching human society by watching inmates.
My perspective on masculinity as a woman: I have reflected a lot on this, what it means to be masculine and feminine in a positive sense and toxic sense. I have realized that since early childhood, healthy femininity has been sold to me as something that was wrong and needed to be suppressed. I was explicitly told that to be a good person that I had to perform masculinity(be strong, stoic, hyper independent, to be the care taker and the provider, to sacrifice myself my happiness peace time and energy for everyone else’s well being). This was communicated to me by family members, TV, and even teachers. Positive masculine traits were the only acceptable thing, and so I embodied that, the more I did, the more praise and reinforcement I got, but also the worse everything in my life became, my mental health and physical health. My interpersonal relationships were affected and I was so exhausted and burnt out. I resented the world because playing a man was killing me(I was actually getting sicker with multiple health issues). it wasn’t an authentic expression of who I wanted to be but something that became second nature due to brainwashing and habits that had been solidified for years. At 20, I had my first romantic connection with a young guy(2 yrs older than me), the first month went amazingly, my natural femininity had emerged really strongly for the first time in my life. I felt safe, happy, soft, playful, attentive, energized, and truly free. The guy was embodying healthy masculinity(positively claiming a women, to understand her and love her and be responsible for her). He expressed to me that I brought this value to him that I wasn’t even aware of. But this fizzled out soon as my masculine conditioning took over awakening his feminine conditioning. I got so disregulated when that happened. Suddenly I no longer had this safe strong masculine presence. I was turning into the decisive leader in the relationship and I hated it. I felt alone and abandoned(eventually I was). He got mad and resentful because suddenly all my positive femininity had disappeared. I think as a society, we have to really examine the energy we’re embracing, and stop pushing the narrative that men and women are interchangeable and the same or worse that either sex has to reject healthy embodiments of their energies and fully transform to embrace the opposite energy. Every person needs a bit of both positive energies in themselves(and even a healthy integrated shadow). We also need that from others, but there has to be a balance and at the same time polarity within one’s self and with others.
This rings very true for me. I think in a practical sense it's good if both people in a heterosexual relationship can show up "both ways" because nowadays it's more beneficial if both people work and both people take care of the family and household. However, there is indeed a polarity between men and women and it feels unnatural and weird to most of us to reject or reverse that polarity. So even if a man is a stay at home dad, he can embody the positive energies of masculinity, like being a protector, proactive planner and mentor, and his wife will probably thank him for it. On the flip side, even a career driven woman who is tough in the outside world can reserve some of her softness and playfulness for her man, who will be just as grateful. We seek out relationships that complement us and make us something we couldn't have been alone.
It was that point in the video that Dr. K lost me. "If this is what healthy masculinity is, then why can't women be those things too?" The answer is because healthy masculinity is great for men, and needed in the world, but it only is half the equation. If everyone is doing the same half, humanity/society gets out of balance. On top of that imbalance, in even asking the question you are subtly, and perhaps unknowingly, devaluing femininity and *all* it brings. Making it "less than" masculinity. In short, it isn't progressive, it's actually being misogynistic. It just... irks me. I'm still trying to understand it, to explain it better. That is just what I see.
@@Thungon yeah, in my journey of rediscovering my suppressed femininity I have just realized how demonized and disregarded femininity truly is. There is a subtle misogyny in suggesting that the way women become better humans is through embracing masculine traits(which should be done but not as a substitute for embracing femininity). I find it difficult for myself to even define femininity as my American culture doesn’t really seem to know. I don’t think obedience for example is actually a healthy embodiment of femininity but this is one of the few pervasive ideas of femininity in the west. I think curiosity especially at the expense of obedience(not true submission) is an extremely feminine characteristic(think of the most famous example of Eve in the garden of eden). Then we wonder why redpill communities and incels villainize women for not being “submissive”(obedient) or otherwise being nonconforming to distortions of femininity. Not only are women not taught what it means to be positively feminine, and it is programmed out of us so we forget and resist it when it emerges.
Masculinity is both a pressure a lot of men face, but its also seen with a lot of resistance when its questioned whether those values are are actually healthy. I think its because if you question it you're killing the "dream" as it were, and you're essentially telling them the vulnerable state they feel in now, which a lot of us run from is where you have to stay because "hey, we're getting rid of your masculine dream now, there's no space for this in society anymore". However i feel that vulnerability IS the much harder, but more truthful route to inner strength.
Well sure, that's part of it, but I don't think it's good practice to ascribe other people's resistance (when you explicitly set out to tear down their value systems) just to fear or attachment. People adopt their ideals because they see something in there, whether they can verbalize it or not; I'm not sure you're leaving any space here for the good in masculinity. If you think of anything as archetypal as "masculinity" or "femininity" and only negative associations come to mind, you're absolutely missing part of the picture. I agree that strength is found through weakness and vulnerability, and I do think people understand and practice that to a reasonable degree. But a common mistake men make, emotional intelligence being a more traditionally feminine virtue, is to just push their weakness around until they lose sight of it instead of seeking to understand it at its root. I say that cause I've done it. It's easy to think you've done the work and you're a better person now when you achieve the specific result you set out for, even if you brute-forced it through emotional repression or self-deception of some kind. I don't think meditation, self-love, and working with what you called "vulnerability" are usually seen as masculine things, but people certainly recognize the virtues they produce as masculine. Everybody knows Dr. K is a chad. We're all a little bit lost as to which way we should get there, but we tend to admire people with genuine virtues worth admiring.
Given how many female content creators are making "where are all the real men?" style posts right now...I'd say there's still a ton of demand for the "masculine dream." At least from a woman's perspective for what she considers attractive. The struggle is THAT masculine dream is often a nerve wracking tightrope for men to walk because they are expected to be both the old and the new. Confidant, determined, and capable but also emotional, vulnerable, and empathic. Except, never TOO vulnerable, never TOO empathic, never TOO emotional. "Confidence is sexy" is the number one driving factor for how men are expected to handle relationships, so of course what you get is a range of men that run from vulnerability to varying degrees. More often than not, open vulnerability is simply not rewarded with positive outcomes.
@@TheNynax this is why I think alot of the "new" thinking on this stuff is a scam. I judge people by what they do rather then what they say....everything seems more truthful that way.
The resistance comes from men usually when women tell them that behaving like a man is toxic and they should just adopt more female traits. In condescending and also DOES NOT WORK
#1 I think the term 'toxic masculinity' is extremely toxic in itself, since it implies that men's acting toxic (being jealous, aggressive, controlling, self-important) has some connection to being male. In reality, women do the exact same toxic things and you don't hear about 'toxic femininity' at all. So either make it equal for everyone and speak of toxic juvenility, toxic Asianhood etc. or just speak of toxicity in general (far more logical option). #2 If you construe your masculine identity as a negation of femininity, then you'll find that the more things historically reserved for men women do nowadays (wearing a tuxedo, being a bodybuilder, being a leader etc.), the more your identity is in danger of annihilation, so you'll naturally get defensive (and bitter).
The whole theory of toxic masculinity isn't as simple as that and can't be debunked by a short deductive a to z logic comment. Toxic masculinity is a behaviour steming from the social pressure to fit into a role assigned to the male biological gender: i.e A young boy born biologicaly male understand that he should be like what boys need to be (being protective aggressive, controlling, self-assertivness etc...) which probably don't fit the world he lives in utility and leads him to adopt a unrequired toxic behaviour which again stems from the masculine role he adopted. If it is an excess of it or the concept itself of masculinity itself that is a problem is another question.
@@SirBojo4 being aggresive is a good thing. It allows one to destroy enemies in a more effcient way. It might only be considered 'bad" if you actually plan to be his enemy...
@@SirBojo4 Well… thats ironic. Woman in our current soceity is pushed and being told that they should act in more of an ”self pleasing” way. Its ok for woman to act controlling, manipulative, selfish etc. But still the same people complain about toxic masculinity? Its also the fact that our soceity have for ages pushed that women deserve a gentleman, someone who provides for them, someone who spoils them. meanwhile men have to accomplish everything them self to have these advantages in life.
Keep in mind that independence REQUIRES a support network. A job isn't the only part to being independent. Developing a robust support network comprised of multiple UNRELATED individuals (friends and family and partner are the usual 3 groups to choose from, though you could probably find multiple sub-groups in either if the other is lacking) is a critical component of independence, as otherwise you risk one bad family member or one bad relationship or one bad friendship completely destroying your life. And sure you aim to provide for yourself while you have work, but what will you do if your work decides to fire you? Being able to rely on others on fair terms is very important.
Masculinity can't be toxic by definition. Masculine traits are ALL good. It's like calling intelligence toxic, that doesn't make sense. Arrongance may come with high intelligence. But the problem is arrongance, not the intelligence itself. The same applies to masculinity.
Masculinity can be toxic. It can be misused to take advantage of others and to put them down. The tool is being used for toxic scenarios which makes it toxic. If you use the tool positively, then it will be positive masculinity.
I think it depends on where you look, because I've seen plenty of messaging that implies that masculinity in itself is toxic, which is absolutely false - and I've also seen women shit on men en masse (and be applauded for it) in a way where if the tables were turned, nobody would stand for it. That is wrong too, and I think much of the anger comes from unresolved trauma. When I think of healthy masculinity, I think of the man who runs the academy where I train in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai. He's fairly stoic and focused, but also good-humored. He is critical but also patient and encouraging. And more than anything else, he has the kind of calmness that comes from the knowledge that he can absolutely destroy anybody in a physical conflict. He can protect anyone in a way that very few are able. We need more healthy father figures in our world, because an absent father figure is harmful to both boys and girls and they often grow into confused and conflicted adults who struggle in life and act out that absence in different unconscious ways. I would also caution about discouraging naturally-showing masculine traits in boys, which is no more healthy than discouraging naturally-showing feminine traits.
My maladaptations were the following things to become, I guess “independent": - Closing off from my emotions and people by numbing myself through binge gaming. - Exercising a lot to stay in that flight or flight high. - Placing a facade that I am always fine and nothing phases me. - Turning to “positive vibes” and mindset to avoid sadness. - Using Law of Attraction to “change my inner state” and being stubborn not acknowledging my sadness. I still struggle with opening up with sadness ehe…
With the exception of hiding from my sadness and emotions, I feel like I do those things. I don't see what's wrong with exercising to feel better. I sure don't know what else I'd do. I also feel trapped and so have been playing a lot of games lately. My job as a cashier can be fun too though, so maybe I should just work more hours since I at least get paid to do that.
@@JonathanTash Awesome! I guess for me, the problem arose when I thought these were 'tools' for coping mechanisms (such as past traumas), but in actuality I used it as a numbing tool to not make me look at problems / improvements I want to do in life. It made me not see of my problems because I thought the "maladaptations" we all-in-one solutions to life and I didn't recognize what I was doing until someone pointed out to me that I was not even attempting to fix my problems. It's scary cause for me, it became something like this: (As an example) "Oh, your parents got divorced at a young age, and you got bullied at school? Don't worry, meditation, LoA and lots of exercise is all you need."
I think you nailed what "toxic" masculinity is when you said it's an exaggeration of masculine traits. That really rings true. Men that can embody their OWN masculinity are attractive. Not the puffed up, ego-driven version of it that is really a mask for insecurity. Self-sufficiency is an excellent foundation on which to build. It breeds self-esteem and personal accountability, which you have to have to maintain relationships. Work relationships, romantic relationships, friends. It doesn't matter. If you are insecure, you can't maintain intimacy. Either because you can't enforce your own boundaries or you're trying to control others.
I'm very thankful for this video for a number of reasons. One important thing I took from your view on this topic is that genders tend to judge themselves just as harshly. So far it seemed to me like you tend to judge men way harsher than women. For example if women complain a certain trait about men you tend to accept it more than the other way around. BUT after watching this video I might have misjudged some things. You explained that gender issues are way more complex than most people want to believe. I still kinda feel like men get treated more harshly in many vids but that might also be due to the fact that we tend to focus on men on this channel.
Ive been actively working on a video essay to do with masculinity and positive masculinity and am so glad you made this video. You were on my list of male role models in my life along with Uncle Iroh, my brothers, and Aragon from Lord of the Rings, so seeing this video is extremely encouraging. Im glad that some young men have been able to recognize the toxicity of some of the ideas that are being shared on the internet as of late and glad you could shed light on the situation. Ill definitely be referencing this video a lot over the course of my project.
Woman here: I got a great story for this! *Gender roles are a double edged sword.* My Grandpa Ed was a good man. He worked in local government organizing public works projects in the 1930s-60s. He made middle class money. Grandma Jane also worked - in the roles she was allowed to - as a librarian and a teacher. She couldn't make much money. Now my aunties really, really wanted their own rooms. They were 7 years apart and jealous of my dad who had his own room. My older aunty put pressure on Grandpa Ed to add a bedroom to the house. Being a naïve and immature kid, she made it about "Why don't you make more money Dad?" Think about how that might have made Grandpa Ed feel. He was a good man by all standards of the time. He was providing by doing good work. And yet, the gender roles of the time places the majority of the responsibility for the family's finances on him. Think about how that might have made Grandma Jane feel. She got a lot of crap as a librarian and a teacher - I'm talking actual verbal/emotional abuse from students. She just wasn't respected in her lower-paid, "feminine" jobs. The gender roles of the time barred her from making more money. So yes, gender roles cut both ways.
I'm only half way through, but so far this has been an insightful and nuanced take on the pressures we can feel based on our gender. Really interesting stuff! Thanks for making it :)
Starting with the segment at 19:29, Dr. K considers independence (i.e. keeping yourself and your house clean especially) and responsibility to be the two most important elements of modern masculinity. Jordan Peterson's first rule is to "Stand up straight with your shoulders back" and "Treat yourself like someone you are responsible for helping", both tying into responsibility and the confidence to achieve that. JP's sixth rule is "Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world" (i.e. "Clean your room!") which is essentially Dr. K's whole spiel on keeping yourself and your house clean. Most of JP's rules could relate to either independence or responsibility. That's why people were/are drawn to him. I just found this interesting, how in line these ideas are to each other.
Brilliant video, thank you! Everything you said here resonates strongly with my experiences. I am probably much older than most of your audience (60), so I have seen and lived a lot of the ongoing gender role evolution. Starting from my dad saying it's a waste of money to send a girl to college because they'll just get married and waste it, and my mom being super negative about men being "househusbands" supported by their wives, to where we are today. I lament the sort of "armed camp" vibe from factions of both (all?) genders, but I am optimistic it's still a phase we're passing through on the way to a healthier place for all genders.
Will such a place be healthier? We already know that people are significantly less happy than they were so it is interesting that you believe we are making things better with changes.
@@Turamwdd It will be healthier than hyping up our differences instead of our similarities, IMO. I don't think the "a woman's place is in the home, washing dishes and making babies" approach was better or happier, for anyone except the men. You're welcome to a different opinion, but I'm hanging on to mine.
I used to be a very vulnerable child before around middle school, where being that way was a danger to me. So I adopted tough masculinity to protect myself from people in my school. (I had moved states in-between middle school so it was hard to get used to different cultures) so because of that I never appreciated my natural masculinity because I had to wear it like a safety blanket in all situations, even with friends. Only recently like a few weeks recently, have I dropped the veil and mask of toughness and manliness to show my true softer and more feminine nature that I actually felt comfortable presenting and being. It took a lot of life experiences, homelessness, living in stores, losing close friends and consistent state hopping due to work to finally feel safe enough and confident enough to just be me, so with that I've embraced the gender neutral me that I always wished I felt safe enough to just be, but now I'm older and capable of handling my business and convictions, and I haven't been happier before this, but! With this new self acceptance I've also been relearning to enjoy my masculinity the way I was always supposed to, on my own accord, my way
Lol I was once judged by another guy for not being masculine because I cross my legs when I sit sometimes. 🤣 I'm like " Is there nothing to be said for casual comfort?"
funny, as a girl i was always told to be (financially) independent and responsible and keep good hygiene. indeed those aren't specifically goals for men, just for everyone.
I feel though we should be careful about single, personal examples, when thinking about an entire population. It might be you, but not the average. That's what studies on this stuff are useful for :)
Yeah, I think an important piece often left out of the gender standards and “what does being a man/woman mean?” conversation is that most traits of being a good man/woman are traits that a good *human* probably has. Also, people tend to gloss over culture is a strong force in determining what an ideal “man/woman” is, and the primary reason one society views a “man” as one thing is because they went through different historical and cultural events. In some cultures, financial independency is not necessarily tied to living on your own (cultures where it's the norm to live at home to your mid-late 30's or beyond for example), whereas in many modern cultures those two things are part and parcel, and living at home as a man might be considered a personal failure, which might not be the case.
I’ve kinda noticed that toxic masculinity is a culture of deprivation. “Don’t do this don’t do that” type of thing. Like “don’t have feelings” “don’t be a coward” “don’t be weak” “don’t be ‘a woman’” etc etc etc. I think healthy masculinity is choosing to do affirmative things instead, or at least, approaching things in a personal and affirmative way. If you want to be a protector, you should do it because you want to protect others, not because you’re afraid that you’re not manly enough if you don’t. Toxic masculinity is fear and deprivation. Healthy masculinity is acceptance. It’s almost a little bit funny (as a trans guy) that even cis guys are now experiencing what can basically be described as gender dysphoria because it’s impossible to completely meet the societal standards or masculinity. Welcome to the club of “people using your gender as a way to attack you personally for a failing that isn’t your own fault”.
One thing I remember from an old Biology class I had that was related to the subject... if you'd like some context, I went to a low income high school with metal detectors. Our teacher one day was doing a class on sexual dimorphism found in nature and we had a decent bit of downtime. To be more to the point, eventually a few kids got the teacher to do a quick quiz. She asked us: "You are all now lottery winners. You have more money than you could ever use in 5 lifetimes, and your mother's birthday is soon. What do you buy for her?" Every last guy straight up said they're buying their mom a house. The girls of the class however, were saying things like vacations to the Bahamas and Japan and all sorts of.. personal experience things. Things that you think back to 15 years ago and say "Oh it was so great to be there with Josephine it was so cool".
A house bring alot of comfort and seeing my mom work 12 hour days i want to help pay off things so she doesnt have to work so much. A vacation is a good memory yes, but a house provides comfort that a vacation cant buy. And a vacation comfort doesnt last long.
I gotta say, I was pleasantly surprised by this video. I came into it ready to be pissed, because I am so used to the voices who are so pathologically anti-male and shame men for the mere fact of their existence. But that was not what this was at all; it was a very reasonable and well thought out approach. So many times, when broaching the topic of toxic masculinity, the speaker takes the approach of, "masculinity is not bad, just toxic masculinity is bad," but then proceed to label all masculine behavior as toxic, so the result is still the same. It is nice to hear an actual good take on the subject for a change.
I think the incessant disclaimers are necessary, at least on the internet, because 1) if you don't, people just assume the worst of you and 2) it makes it so you're not so easily clipped and taken out of context by those who would dishonestly use what you say. The internet has a huge problem of people arguing deceptively and in bad faith. The overall goal isn't to find truth, it's to dunk on the other team.
You can still get clipped out of context even with disclaimer. Better to just leave them out and say what you got to say. Life doesn't give you a disclaimer when it's your turn to get hit in the balls with an obstacle.
It kind of annoys me that people Always define traditional masculinity in this way because that's not how it was in my environment. As many generations back as i've heard, men and women were always equally the providers and equally the leaders. There was just division of labor. Men did more of the work in the fields and larger crafting, like woodwork and women did more cooking, cleaning, childcare, and smaller crafting like making clothes for everyone. When salaried work came around, both worked, although cooking, cleaning and childcare still remained more women's responsibilities. My grandparents were always bickering or teasing each other, but not like one being the "leader". To me, that whole concept just seems like something made up by American movies.
I actually have a theory based on my passing interest and basic understanding of masculinity and femininity. It seems to me that in the modern age, there was a strong push from the civil rights movement for compassion and understanding, which are traditionally feminine characteristics (as opposed to the masculine characteristics of independence and strength). So we taught kids to care for one another and be understanding of individual circumstances, but we never taught them how to tell people to f--- off, even if they did nothing wrong, for the sake of individuals' sanity. The crushing weight of society's problems came crashing down onto people, kids, who have no tools to do anything about it. The internet exacerbated these issues - it turns out, education is not the end-all solution to every social problem. It's in instances like this where you actually NEED to become separate from the issues. Forget about what the world needs, take care of yourself and become a pillar that can stand on its own - THIS is a masculine ideal. Now, don't be an idiot: the criticisms made against what we've dubbed today as "toxic masculinity" are absolutely valid. Men and women SHOULD be considered equal, NEITHER men nor women should be gatekept from jobs or positions because of their genders (well, maybe with some exceptions). But I think a social pullback is required on some of the "progress" that we've made. The constant drive that pushes people toward worrying about others and the need to satiate the societal gaze is not wrong. I really don't think it is. But I think people also need to be strong for their own sake, and need to learn that if you push against someone, like in a competitive workplace environment, that they'll be okay (and that if they're not okay, that they'll at least be okay enough to walk away without being crippled). It's okay to ask people for directions! If they're bothered by you, it's not like things can get worse; you're already lost. Who cares if they think you're an idiot? But there's a chance that they won't be bothered at all and they'll help you find your way.
There's an idea from a clinical psychologist who worked with women who worked at large corporations in a competitive workplace environment, and he essentially told them that if they wanted a pay raise or if they wanted to move into higher positions that they feel they've earned or are more qualified for compared to others, that they should assert their own value and not be afraid of pushback. The men are doing it, and there's nothing wrong with the women doing it too.
@@Dimitris_Half I think it's fine to be compassionate as a man :[ That's just how it's categorized traditionally. It's your problem if you think being feminine is bad kek
@@blarblablarblar I mean, being compassionate as a man the way that women do is very likely to get the cops called on you for being a creeper. If I said or did half the shit the girls at my work say and do to each other I'd have been fired long ago. I can be compassionate but I have to do it in a masculine way, that's just recognizing the reality we live in. Toxic masculinity is just a buzzword women created to vaguely complain about things men do in a new and inventive way, and then some re*arded activist types who lean way too hard on nurture vs nature and think we can socially construct the kind of utopia we want latched onto it. As much as I love the internet, it's given too many people a voice who absolutely do not deserve a voice.
The fact that the question “can masculinity be healthy” is a relevant topic a huge statement about the state of Western society at the moment. People are usually sooner to blame masculinity in general rather than to attempt to make any distinction between individuals.
There will never be videos about toxic femininity and misandry . I personally couldn't care less for myself since I am doing great in life but imagine you are telling some 5 year old kid that he's toxic just because he is displaying NORMAL male kid behaviour that he wants to play & spar with his friends . Even something as ''toxic'' as fighting is a great thing growing up for men and can be done via sports like wrestling but if you take all those male dominant activities away then you will have kids becoming confused and wanting to unalive themselves cuz they can't regulate their emotions and feel missunderstood cuz everyone is telling them to act feminine/stop behaving like a ''toxic man''. Hell,remove even the word man from that equation and look at how people treat people with adhd/autism and how they want to actually put them all down and eradicate them/have all peers hate on them just because they are different
@@Conanraul toxic masculinity is not what you described. It's not two boys getting into a fight. Although don't say that's healthy. Since when agression is healthy?
i feel like its more so the way the term "toxic masculinity" is framed. Another commenter mentioned that on cinema therapy, the host calls it "limiting masculine beliefs" because it helps people understand what hes saying better. With "toxic masculinity" men may incorrectly assume that the individual speaking means that masculinity as a whole is toxic, when in reality most of the time, they just mean that a specific belief or behaviour tied to traditional masculinity is problem. For instance, grit determination and persistence are positive traits of traditional masculinity but dealing with all of your problems with violence is a negative trait and would be a limiting masculine belief. Am I making sense to you?
@@kattodoggo3868 ''Toxic masculinity is not what you described'' ''Fighting = aggresion = not healthy'' So,if atleast 50-60% of kids would want to practice SAFE fighting (if you think wrestling is ''aggresive'' then you are delusional) then they would still be seen as mentally unstable due to social norms from people acting exactly like you do,making said kids think there's something wrong with them for wanting something that has been normal since the dawn of time - > practicing sports/practicing safe fighting with friends instead of actually beating each other up for real . Not all forms of fighting are 2 guys beating each other outside a bar
Zyzz is overhyped. Dude literally died from a heart attack by too much drug consumption and partying. I don’t know why dudes idolize him. The only thing I respect is his dedication to the gym.
Dude did have a congenital heart disease (though the roids and party drugs probably didn't help). His dedication to the gym wasn't that special. What was special was his encouragement of others. Near the end of his life he told his brother he wanted to quit the whole arrogant partyboy Zyzz persona and start living a responsible, healthier life. Don't lift for Zyzz. Lift for Aziz Sergeyevich Shavershian. Lift for that skinny, insecure, goofy kid that believed that if he could do it, so could you. Take Zyzz's encouragement and become the person Aziz was on the cusp of becoming but tragically never got to realize. Truly confident. Someone truly worth being proud of. We're all gonna make it brah.
I like how Dr K points out how It's very important to point out the challenges of each gender (both self reinforced and reinforced by society) instead of making it into a battle, I truly believe is the only way to achieve some understanding of each side
I dont think we got more independent as a species. Quite the contrary. People were able to survive and thrive in groups of hundreds. Today my survival is dependent on the work of millions of people, that produce and bring to my house food, water, medicine etc The difference is that we no longer consider the people we depend on part of our community. We no longer do the work necessary for their survival out of a sense of duty, or because we care about them. We do it because we want money. This means they dont need to worry as much about what we think about their behavior. Because as long as they can still pay for our services we will probably continue providing them
23:50 I'm nonbinary, and when I was thinking about the concepts of masculinity and femininity, I couldn't really pinpoint a character trait that a man could have that I wouldn't appreciate in a woman. Most things just boil down to being a good person. Obviously society will try to focus on certain traits/behaviors, but when I clicked on this video I was wondering if Dr. K would reach this kind of conclusion as well. My growth as a person and unpacking what I really identify with masculinity and femininity and my peers through experience and discussion with friends led me to finding nonbinary (more specifically demiboy) as an identity that is fulfilling to every aspect of my life. It definitely comes with it's own set of expectations from society (which Dr. K goes into a bit later in the video), but I'm much happier with myself and where I am then before.
Yeah I find it to be the same. There's different parts of masculinity and femininity that are good and would be generally useful to everyone in the different circumstances they find themselves in. Like as a guy being able to understand your emotions and identify why you're feeling a certain way helps you to figure out a way to deal with it. (much more than just knowing that you feel like shit and dont know why you feel like shit). tbh its just interesting to see other people that have a similar view to me on this topic.
I'm a guy and every ideal I would expect of myself I would value in someone regardless of gender. I work out, build my career, keep tabs on my mental state, cook my favorite food, build skills, socialize, lead when needed, and communicate my feelings to people I'm close to. All of these I would find to be admirable traits in anybody.
And that's why masculinity and femininity are energies reside both within one person regardless of gender. Also I do agree emotional maturity is a thing that both men and women should have especially of the older age.
It's interesting that the aspect of men being the ones that need to go out and work to provide has worked it way into our conceptions of masculinity as if it was always so, when before the industrial revolution a lot of industry and production was done in the home by women, while men typically did more of the physically demanding stuff such as working land or hunting, so the overall providing was originally a partnership and it's only the centralisation of the means of production into large factories owned by a few people that took that away.
Personal opinion: toxic masculinity doesn't exist, there is masculinity and femininity, there are toxic people who use said mentalities to do terrible things to others on both sides, so this argument that "toxic masculinity" is a problem is extremely flawed, there are toxic men and women on this earth, no changing that. Masculinity is a man who feels the duty to protect, provide and guide anyone who they care about, or to make it even better those who seek help or advice. To take responsibility for everything in his life and endlessly improve to make the lives of his loved ones easier to manage. Any man that uses the gift that is masculinity to harm, look down on, and put others down isn't a man, but simply a insecure coward
I don't like masculinity as a label. Some people might like being masculine, like that's fine with me. I'll personally just pick and choose aspects (for as much as that is possible) of how I want to be, labels be dammned. I don't want to prove being a man, but I sure as hell think there's some good things inside the "man" box. From my point of view though, those are healthy things a lot of women would benefit from as well. And vice versa.
Why can't he ever just say that men are judged unfairly without mentioning that doesn't mean that women aren't judged unfairly? It's almost like he thinks the immature people will attack him. Tells a lot.
Absolutely!! As a female growing up in super agressive/ abusive patriarchal society. I adopted a mask that viewed men as non human. So afraid of getting hurt I lived my life as an alpha cuz that’s what we’re taught. I’m a heavy equipment operator in a coal mine and a fitness model ….. I am discriminated against and exist in toxic masculine environment. This recent stint I started looking into masculinity and found men deal with so much. I was more open. I never took a moment to look at how men experience this society and world. I’m a woman. How would I have any idea unless Intentionally setting out to understand in such a triggered world. But I did …. It is a human experience ….. while so many think men and females are two different entities and unfortunately many believing one is superior. But that hurt and trauma as I now understand…. We are collectively dealing with past patriarchal social constructs that no longer serve either sex. We are dealing with the human ness component and our lack of attention in such. We have a ways to go. But I am thankful with the newly trauma informed society as well as the sharing of our own stories that we will reach an understanding and point of empathy and connection and change can occur. 💖 I now rally for the men as well as the women. They are not my enemy. They are my brothers in this old construct but new world and demand. We need to go back to the drawing board. When things fail that’s what we do. Why not with this? Jussss sayinnn 💖💖💖 I see you and I am hopeful for the change. we need more than one ant to do it …. But it’s coming. 💯💯💯😊
you state that masculinity is toxicity, yet you claim to be for us men? Are you really? Or are you trying to have men be what YOU EXPECT them to be, so that its nice and good for YOU?
The biggest issue I see time and time again become a problem concerning toxic masculinity is really the name itself. Men so often feel attacked by the term alone and I think that has done a lot for men to shut down any discussion around it. Maybe there really needs to be a new term that is more intrigueing for men.
@@corneliahanimann2173 This right here is what I feel is a very important statement. And I can explain you why it attacks us. This term I feel is mostly used by women to describe men, it is rather rare that someone calls a women toxic masculine. And we are born masculine so masculinity is something we assosiate as something we couldn´t chose to be nor change and this term implies that there is something wrong in how we were born but what most people mean when they use this expression is basically somewhat like "your behaviour towards others or yourself impact you negatively". The word came to live because women see mostly men judging other men for something like opening up which doesn´t happen between women as much or hard, so it has to be the masculinity in them but not realising that they with their portrait of the perfect man can be as harmful. I don´t think that there needs to be new term because the exact same thing will happen, I think what we need is just a shift in what we perceive as masculine and what is nessecary for a man to be a "man".
this channel is an absolute treasure, even when I'm somewhat familiar with a topic I can always find something new and insightful here, this is quality stuff
All I know is as a college student who doesn’t really work because of the work load of my classes and family obligations, I am automatically disqualified as a potential partner for most women. Although I have so many positive qualities, the single factor that I don’t have a ton of money makes me an undesirable relationship candidate. Doesn’t matter that I’m in school to get there, doesn’t matter that I’m going for my doctorate in Physical Therapy. It’s really upsetting to know that fact.
Yeah people generally don't care about the process to success and only focus on the results of success. It's a lonely world out there, and it really reinforces the idea that who you are and what your interests are really don't matter if it doesn't come with the luxuries of the upper class.
@@grillmaster95 yup. And it’s something I’m going to keep in mind when I do finally become successful. Those who weren’t around while I’m here, won’t be allowed in once I get where I want to be.
Yep that’s reality. Men have to build their value to society and people don’t care until you finish. Let’s be real though you wouldn’t want a girl who’s in the process of becoming hot you want the hot girl. It makes biological sense when you under stand males typically are a generation’s experiment with various new genes.
Those are the shallow superficial people right there. Not everyone is like that and I hope you do meet good people along the way as everyone deserves to have support from loved ones
I'm so happy to hear you say it, K. I've been under the impression for sometime myself that the real source of toxic masculinity/femininity stem from same-gender peer-influence, and within the individuals themselves in so far as they allow themselves to be toxic by internally condoning their behaviour and rationalising it as gender-appropriate. The insecurity in people really propel this problem fundamentally, as stereotypical masculinity/femininity offer a pre-made identity to prop up a lack thereof. This problem is not going anywhere until we stop idealising certain stereotypes as superior. Now let it be said that I recognise that some behaviours have adaptive advantages given a context, but the ultimate point is that we have to strive to make society as viable a culture and context for everybody involved. On a societal level, gender needs to become more irrelevant in all domains other than personal.
Male advice these days is so lacking and not generally fit for purposes imho. Your "be strong" anecdote is a perfect example. It's not helpful to many as it seems more of a cliché term rather than advice that can be understood and aid the person in their situation. Perhaps "Be strong by...insert example for person here" would be better, but many people don't know what to put after it, so it just gets shortened to the term we know today and people are just supposed to somehow know what to do from there.
3:30 - As far as i've heard lately, some scientists are not sure anymore, if the division was that strikt due to some archeologists might bring their ideology into the evaluation of archeological discoveries (Like "oh, there's a sword, so must be a men"), while the evaluation isn't always that easy to begin with, especially when they don't know exactely, how the culture burries people of different genders or if there's even a difference to begin with. And to me that makes sense, since the survival of a tribe depends more on utilizing the full potential of each individual, thus a strong woman might still be more useful on a hunt or a weak man more useful on collecting stuff or processing things. Or the other way around, a tribe which forces someone to do something, they don't like, could easily weaken the productivity of the group, not to mention that sometimes the split between men and woman in a generation might not be ideal enough to divide the work by genders (like if you're unlucky you could get like a 80:20-split for an upcomming generation, but the work still needs to be done anyway, until the split normalizes again for the generation after that). And i wouldn't be surprised, if even up to this day the productivity of most cultures with tendencies towards gender roles hypothetically performs worse than the same culter without them. Ultimately i've just heard it from 2 scientists in a show though, so i can't really link any studies about this kind of problem in the archeological field, so take it with a grain of salt.
I LOVE your point that healthy masculinity and healthy femininity at the core is simply being a healthy human. We all have so much more in common than different, there are very real struggles for both genders but in the end gender isn't that important.
@gnome from pinkerton absolute fucking batshit. Also gender is incredibly important and is extremely highly correlated with biology. It's absolutely mind blowing that people are still going around pretending that body chemistry has no effect on personality or brain development. It's like they never paid attention to a single day of biology class.
25:05 This right here is the meat and potatoes of the whole topic. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how you define it for yourself, because masculinity is only a factor in interpersonal relationships, in how people relate to you, it's irrelevant for your self (much like a sense of humor is irrelevant if you don't partake in any social capacity to make use of it), so the individual definition of masculinity of other people will be the determinant of whether or not you are masculine to them, you can't do anything about it. I could casually make my way down a street in a sleeveless shirt and based on how much care I have dedicated to my body image, a random passersby would say I'm toxic before I so much as made eye contact with them, much less opened my mouth. I do the same in Eastern Europe and they don't see a man, they see a broken human in a wheelchair, they see someone who used to be a man, at that point any display of masculinity to them comes off as meaningless theatrics... but I digress. Masculinity in modern society is not something you have, masculinity is what people ascribe to you based on their individual definitions of what masculinity is. The more you are trying to be masculine by trying to adapt as many aspects of it as possible, the more you veer into toxic territory as far as your perception by other people goes. Therefore masculinity as a whole strictly in terms of a learned behavior is a useless catchphrase that doesn't help anyone become more masculine, it's a very poor self-help topic.
I literally never comment on youtube videos but this needs to be seen everywhere lol, the quality is through the roof for all the themes that are discussed. Bravo
TLDR: Don't let outdated societal gender norms dictate your life, do what makes you happy, because at the end of the day it's your life and you should be happy with the person that lives in your head, since they're the one that occupies 100% of your time Full Comment: I think one of the best things I did for my own mental health in the past 3 years was to say "f*** it, I'm going to do things that makes me happy and more comfortable in my own skin" which for me was doubling down on my feminine traits, I always identified more with women than men. Two of the strongest people in my life growing up was my mom and sister, I have always looked up to both of them, I did have a dad, but he was always too busy doing the whole provider thing for the family to really be there for any of us, he wasn't a bad dad, just an absent figure, I also had an older brother and he did his best to do the whole big brother role, so I had a perfect split between male and female role models growing up. I was the middle child and ended being both my brother's and sister's best friend, I would do boy things with my brother and girl things with my sister and honestly I always liked the girl things better, I liked playing dolls, baking, fangirling over boy bands, etc, and I didn't think that was odd, nore did my family, things like that only felt odd once I got closer to my teens and society started telling me that I had to do/enjoy boy things and I just accepted, but my feminine quirks never went away, I just learned to hide them better, lucky for me in my late teens I met friends that supported me through any decision, slowly I let more of my quirks slip out and they never made me feel odd about them, but I still kept them hidden for the most part outside of my friends, but in the last few years I feel like society is finally slowly moving away from gender roles and I started to see more people who reminded me of me, but just open and happy without a care. So now I have a very androgynous style, let my love of pop show, allow my feminine mannerisms to just be part of me and honestly it's been great, haven't had any negative interaction, I even been complimented on my style and been called beautiful by women and as a guy, that's not something I thought I'd ever hear, men aren't "beautiful" they're "handsome, rugged, etc.) Even when I've been placed in scenarios where I thought the older generation would judge me, but so far all the "boomers" in my life still like me. My friend's dad actually passed away this year and he loved me, even described me as one of the most gentle people he had ever met and he was a huge manly man's man, tough dude from the LA streets, so when my friend told me what his dad thought of me, I melted on the inside, once again being described as "gentle" is traditionally something you don't want to hear as a men, but to me stuff like "beautiful" and "gentle" mean the world to me and make me feel like I belong. I guess my whole point with this I completely agree with everything Dr. K said on this video and I think man and women should be allowed to fill whatever gender role makes them happy and keeps them healthy, not what society tells them. I could've been a 6'2, 240+ lb muscle mountain of a man, with a full beard in traditional men's clothing and unhappy, but nope, I'm a 6'2, 165 lb slender framed guy, that likes dangle earrings, wearing girl shirts, skinny jeans and on rare occasion a very light amount of makeup. Also most of my male friends I would describe as typical dudes, I'm really the only oddball and they don't care. Anywho, I hope this comment helps out anyone who is struggling with gender norms, I also hope you have and/or find people that will support and love you no matter what you do in life ❤️
i related to this video so much i’m a trans man and i lost my dad at 14 when i was just starting my transition and coming into manhood has been very difficult for me as i feel like i’m taking his place as a young man, i’m expected to care for my family and provide for myself and i’ve provided a lot for my partner because i had a problem saying no. I knew my money was going away fast because i was paying for my cars gas to get my significant other around and myself around and paying for my and her food a lot because i felt like that was what i was meant to do. I got money from the government for a good amount of time it stopped when i was 18 and i’ve blown through so much because i didn’t manage myself or set boundaries better because i just thought providing was what i was meant to do and now when i could’ve had a more sturdy financial base i feel more nervous and i see myself cutting back because i know there’s not much left to do with that small amount. i almost wish i never had access to the money but even then i feel bad asking other people for that and anytime i don’t feel secure financially i feel obligated to turn to working more hours. Sometimes i wish things were different and someone provided for me in the way i’ve tried to provide for others but that makes me feel selfish because i know things can’t and shouldn’t just be given to me but it just seems like it would be nice at times. Selling drugs does seem like the best option at this point i never have but i just know i could probably be so much better of that way then working retail but it’s not worth the trouble. Overall i don’t feel comfortable bringing up these struggles because i know women face so many struggles worse than mine and just as you mentioned i’m trying to teach myself not to rely on anyone else because independence is what i value most in myself because it just feel that that’s what everyone’s always expected out of me and eventually it’s all i expect out of myself, i don’t try to seek out other people or community because i know that i’m meant to do most everything on my own and i truly believe the sooner i learn to manage myself the sooner i can manage taking care of my significant other, my family, and my future family. i’m failing at that right now but i’m always trying to think of what i can do for myself to be further off but as i sit and strategize i fall further behind
I used to think I was meant to do everything on my own. I don't anymore. I encourage you to consider that maybe you aren't meant to do everything on your own. Life has been and is hard for you. You said you think others have suffered more, so just like you stood up for their suffering, I'm standing up for yours. I value independence very highly too. But I've learned that I have a tendency to isolate myself when I'm struggling, thinking people want me to, when in reality, most people don't. A healthy community wants to take care of its members. If people help you, and you can't give anything in return, it can feel like you're depending on them and that can feel terrible. But it may be that what they want isn't payment from you, but for you to get to a better place so you can pay it forward to others. They want that because it makes the community stronger, because that kind of cooperation helps them too in the long run. It can be hard to find these kinds of communities and people sometimes but they absolutely exist. I suspect from what you've written that the expectations you're trying to meet may be unrealistic. There's no shame in failing to meet unrealistic expectations. No one can! I hope you can find a way to survive that doesn't carry as many risks to your future as what you're considering. Idk where you are, but you're online. Some advocacy groups online have crisis or support chats, idk if that's an option for you to try. Imo if you're seriously considering illegal activity, that's a crisis and you deserve to have some help to get to a better place that's safer for you and your future. Here's the really hard part, if you decide to ask for help and get rejected, don't give up, ask someone else. None of us can do it alone, it's literally impossible, there's no shame in it. Please reply back if you have questions, I'm glad you posted this and I'd be glad to answer them if that would be helpful for you. Good luck to you.
Women still have to carry the children, so we need men to be able to do more for us financially. I think both parties should contribute equally, but if you are having kids women have to do more in that area so the man must do more in other areas to help.
Dr K I really like your videos. I think a lot of men need to see this. Personally, as a woman, I put the same expectations on myself as any man would on themselves. And society can be limiting, both for me and my boyfriend. I want him to be a househusband, he wants that too. But if he constantly recieves shit for it, that's kind of limiting.
For me the question is, do masculine and feminine behaviours actually exist? What makes them be put in these categories? Sounds to me like "being a man" is just a convenient tool to tell people to shut up and keep grinding, despite awful conditions/treatment.
To some extent there are behaviours which are linked to our biology. I.e. the closer link and connection mothers generally have with their babies is (to some extent) neurobiological (this is not to say that fathers cannot have a link or connection with their baby). Or like men generally have more testosterone than women and high testosterone levels linked to the display of aggressive behaviours. So the average man is probably more aggressive than the average woman. So there is a biological basis for SOME behaviours (even if it isnt consistent; like women can also be aggressive and ik women who are more aggressive than I am and [to me at least] that doesnt make me less of a man or them any less of a woman) Outside of those, I feel like there are alot of behaviours nowadays deemed masculine or feminine on the dumbass basis that men are the opposite of women and vice versa. That they cant like the same things or engage in the same behaviours or thought processes. For instance, there are still people today who believe that men should not wash their face or if they pay attention to their clothes and hair then they are too feminine; when its just basic hygiene and taking care of yourself. Same thing with emotions. Women are seen as being emotional, and so men are taught to never let their emotions show. Or how its seen as manly to have sex with many women but women are bashed for doing the same thing. Its a whole ass mess in every single way. (please read this entire first sentence because the first half of it will seem wild to you if you dont) Your last point is deadass how men are oppressed through the society they created themselves and through the patriarchy. Yes we benefit from it but the toxic parts of traditional masculinity also cripple us at the same time. But those who benefit from how things are tell young men that this is the way things **should** be. Like, women are generally able to be vulnerable with each other but men generally cant be because being vulnerable means youre weak and are less of a man. It may sound odd to you but tbh alot of the shit things about traditional masculinity that men experience is due to pressure put on them primarily by other men. Like they believe they have to do certain things and cant do other things because otherwise other men will look down on them and belittle them. WE LITERALLY GATEKEEP MASCULINITY FROM OURSELVES LMAO. To me, being a man is being confident in who you are as a person and finding the mix of traditionally masculine and feminine behaviours that works for you and helps you to be a better person. Regardless of what other people may think about you. Imo both have traits which are useful (i.e. as a man being able to understand what emotion youre feeling and understanding why you feel that way helps you to work through whatever issue youre having; or as a woman being hardworking and assertive [I really don't know why being hardworking and/or assertive is thought of as specifically a masculine trait]).
it absolutely exist. partly hormones and chromosome provide this distinction. genders have brain differences like more white matter or grey matter and interconnections. testosterone is a power hormone, there is a good documentary on youtube. men shut and keep grinding because they want to get to the top of hierarchy. men create the hierarchy even though it hurts them, if there is no hierarchy a man cant have it all and have no purpose . its like climbing up military rank. some men who are low in hierarchy suffer but still keep grinding and wont let go of hierarchy concept because its like gambling, pillage. one day they hope to get to the top.. men accept these awful conditions/treatment. i think cultural plays 50% and gender differences play 50%. gender differences create culture over time. but gender difference is still minute in grand scheme of things
@@bloodcarnage8285 That's the point, gender differences in temperament are very small. There might be some different abilities that our male and female bodies grant us, but in terms of other things we aren't that different.
Aside from biology, yes they do they are internal energies we lean on whenever it is necessary. Women and be protectors and providers when it needs to be and men can be nurturing caring to their young when needed. They operate in whichever energy is needed at the time. It is when we operate in these energy that in one we feel at peace and whole with purpose, that is our strength to determine where we lean on masculine or feminine that has nothing to do with gender.
Psychologically, I believe that society cleaves the balance of good character in half. Acting manly vs acting womanly are stupid. Just act like a good person.
I wonder how much of "masculine" and "feminine" is actually baked into us biologically and psychologically. Men are, on the whole, bigger and stronger than women. That would naturally lend to them being more in the protector role. I've also heard a few times that the more egalitarian a society gets, there ends up being a notable difference in what professions men go for vs. what professions women go towards. So perhaps it's not just culture norms that haven't caught up to reality, but even our minds and bodies are still stuck in the ancient ways. And this would cause all kinds of friction.
Even so, there are men who will always be physically weak due to various disabilities. We need to contend with whether or not physical weakness makes somebody 'less of a man,' and if so, what that says about 'being a man' in the first place. I do think it's interesting to analyze whether a person has been able to solve problems with physical strength, and how much they've built their life toolkit around that, but there's no way to essentialize that for _every single member_ of that person's demographic.
@@Densoro But if you argue with the exceptions making rules or any type of definition is impossible. In general men are stronger than women. The stronger ought to protect the weaker. Therefore men should generally protect women.
@@Densoro If you are making society you have to make generalisation. This is why men have to be drafted into war. If you want to make quick decisions you don't have time to vet out people individually. If you're country is attacked you can't let men just leave because they are "femboys" or whatever. You have to be strong as a man. You just have to be. Society forces you to be. And at some point the west and these weak men will have a cold awakening when China and the us will finally go to war in the next 10 years and all of these weak men will essentially die because they are incapable of fighting. Do you think that the government cares? Males biologically have much lower value than females. Because of the reproductive strategy of humans it's like bees essentially. You cannot ignore biology in these discussions because society and gender is heavily linked to sex. It's not just the "strong have to defend the weak" it's also the less valuable have to defend the more valuable too. Children are the future, and biologically females are more valuable than males. So it makes sense to sacrifice men in conflict.
Man I wish the last part of this video was its own video, because while I won't be able to get most people to sit through 30 minutes of masculinity discussion I sure as heck would love to get people to sit through 5 minutes of "This is why what-about-ism kills empathy and communication."
That is not true. Even today women are expected to do the majority of household work and childcare work. Even the working moms are doing more household chores than Men. Women are also expected those traditional things even when they are the providers.
(March 5, 2024) One cooking pot for the whole tribe/village6:557:34 Society is becoming more equal, but we expect men to still hold trad roles 8:2910:00 Women in finance10:53 Figuring out what masculinity is on ur own 16:1623:40
Dr K, can you please make a video on where and how to make friends as an adult that spend the majority of it's time gaming and has no sufficient social skills to get relations
Find a hobby, simple. Be it volounteer work, sport, or some geeky stuff or even something like a group trip (not with friends but with other people who paid for the same experience) obviously if you have busy work life try and find healthy balance so you aren't physically and mentally drained every day
I've had a hunch that the most "masculine" men tend to be insecure - and I was right. Your breakdowns are so interesting, thanks for sharing and taking the time Dr K!
Exactly. Usually, the people who have to show off a trait of 'who they are' (specifically in unnatural circumstances where it isn't called for, because someone being performative charismatic/confident in a business setting is a scenario where it might be called for) aren't *actually* that. In a cultural climate that prioritizes outer expression, it's worth being aware that outer expression doesn't verify inner substance; Some of the most insecure people have the biggest superiority complexes.
@Brett M Why are you insisting that people are taking it as "gospel" in reality people just agree with what he says. Also if I had a nickel for every time I heard someone online something along the lines of "I am a historian therefore I understand the past better than anyone else" I would be too rich to spend my time online watching videos.
Toxic and healthy masculine and feminine traits are not limited to males or females. I'm tired of people being mad at men because those people decided to play the gender identity game and its not working out for them. Go out and be your own person. Gender stereotypes are so counter-productive. I'm a male because I am genetically male; you should not feel as though you know anything more about me without getting to know me personally. How did we come to agree that gender is a social construct and then not only maintain those gender stereotypes but also create more of them.
I've actually done that many times telling people to be strong, overtime I've adjusted it and added a line "your feelings are valid/matter, and it good thing to feel them."
Making my way through this video and I think I'll get a lot out of it, but I do want to put a slight disclaimer on the tribal thing; I've been taking an anthropology class and most of the resources I've seen imply that "tribal societies" as we think of them are and were generally pretty egalitarian, with men and women sharing labor roles. But it gets more nuanced than that and this is just the base to start from so I don't think it's wrong to frame it in that way for the purposes of this discussion.
If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you, If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies, Or being hated, don’t give way to hating, And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise: If you can dream-and not make dreams your master; If you can think-and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster And treat those two impostors just the same; If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken, And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools: If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breathe a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’ If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with Kings-nor lose the common touch, If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you, If all men count with you, but none too much; If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run, Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it, And-which is more-you’ll be a Man, my son! -Rudyard Kipling
@@ilikepancakes2368 my experience is different. I’ve met many gay and even feminine men that demonstrate strong masculine traits. It’s strange to describe, but to those who are friendly to them, these men would manually turn down their aggressive traits. But, if someone disrespected them or tried to hurt them, they would not just take it on the chin, they were fiery, angry and stood up for themselves. I had a gay manager who was like this. He was so flamboyantly gay, but nobody dared to cross him.
@@ilikepancakes2368 I'm sorry you think this. You should definitely meet more gay men, then. You will find out that not only are there many gay men who are very masculine, but also many straight men who are more feminine. Don't generalize, ok?
"Positive" traits for masculinity are positive traits for everyone, including women, so assigning them to men lead to problems, especially when you're a man (or woman) the wrong personality type. A person who feel confident and adequate do not think about whether they are "masculine". They just are themselves and that is good. A desire to become or strive for "masculinity" or even "positive masculinity" is therefore an indicator of poor health. The more insecure the person, the more toxic the expressions tend to be. The idea of "masculinity" may in itself make you worry and feel insecure. What you need isn't healthy masculinity but feeling confident that you as a person is enough.
I’ve been saying for a while now that the gender roles we expect people to fill have not kept up with our society’s structure and how the labor market works now. There’s also an issue where women, while allowed to have a career and choose what they want, are STILL expected to be homemakers and prioritize family. One of the reasons women are more prone to staying single by choice and initiating divorces and why marriage makes them less happy than it does men is because of this. When women have to make money, but also have to do the majority of domestic work anyway, having a relationship where the man just makes money and doesn’t help as much with domestic duties is more of a drain on her. This leads to more single people, and of course many men desperate for a relationship not being able to find a woman since women are more picky and less desperate. If society aligns their expectations with how we are actually structured today, we would see individuals choosing roles that work for them, and not holding themselves or their partners to an archaic and useless standard based on their gender, and I think everyone would be happier this way.
i dusagree with this on the basis that majority if divorces are on the basis of finances not on this , the idea that its because they are more prone to do domestic work while having a career while its true , i think its a minority problem
You have a very good point in the things you say, it would be inappropriate to add other stuff to add things to what you are saying, I think that's important to the discussion, stuff gets complicated when you talk about all the "what abouts" that pop up
I know that you’re trying to be impartial and not offend anyone and it’s everyone’s fault, but the rejection of women is by far a stronger motivator for men’s behavior than the judgment of other men. This is something that is rarely mentioned by anyone. I really dislike how we paint women as these powerless creatures underneath the patriarchy when in reality they hold tremendous power, and thus should bear some of the responsibility.
Very solid take. Only thing I would say is that when Dr K comes back at the comment blaming women, while he's right that it's both men and women that do the critiquing, I think for a lot of men the rejection by a women is felt more painfully than the ridicule of men, because he can more easily reject the men as being dicks, but if he wants a partner then women rejecting him hurts more. It's still true that both men and women are responsible for the judgement, not doubt about it. But I think there is room in that statement to note that the female desire for a man with traditionally masculine traits had a greater impact on men than the male critiques.
i feel like almost all "good masculine traits" are just generally good traits a person could have, male or female. I think we dont need masculinity or feminity anymore, everyone should just strive to be a good human being. edit: dr k even said the same thing at 23:33 lol
@@Dimitris_Half So if a woman was a good reliable person, what exactly does masculinity have to do with anything? Yall jist throwing the word masculinity in there for no reason
@@makkerfelix I can give my answer since I agree with him. The issue is that our bodies shape how our minds think just as much (if not significantly more) as the other way around. Merely pretending that we can discard inherent biological traits and their effect on cognitive function is pure absurdism. You may as well be saying we should strive to have nothing but sunny days, as if rain is unimportant.
@@Dimitris_Half Where could you possibly infer that from? It's not completely wrong but I'll get into that later. What I'm saying is that the so-called "dumb physical" body that people like to pretend is just a vehicle for our consciousness is far more complicated than we give it credit for and shapes the way that we think far more than people are probably comfortable knowing. If we use computer language, our direct conscious attention is comparable to a single active core whereas our brain has an estimated 1e15 cores or 1 quadrillion. Being born male or female is a direct and incredibly powerful modifier on how our brains develop and function. This whole idea that everything is just socially constructed and arbitrary is complete nonsense, and I have a dearth of neurobiological, anthropological, genetic, and nutritional data that backs me up. The other side has philosophical and religious intuitions that just mandate that such a thing must be despite all the evidence otherwise. Unlike what all the inspirational videos like to say, the truth is not at all that anyone can do anything, but that there is a potential for greatness to come from unexpected places. To get back to your example, short/small people are significantly more prone to anxiety, violent behavior, and paranoia. This means that a short person is generally not going to make a good leader or have much confidence, though they might be more independent based on other factors. This increases again significantly for women compared to men. None of this means that an anomaly can't happen, but just pretending that everyone has the potential to do or be anything is pure hogwash. The idea we can remove masculinity and femininity is a pipe dream at best.
I think the important part about independence is not actually *being* independent, but having the ability to be independent when necessary. If you make enough money to hire a chef and a cleaner there is no reason not to, but you still should know how to make food and clean your place.
For me it always was like this: manifestations for Healthy Masculinity - Knight, Lord, King, Priest / and Toxic Masculinity - Warrior, Mercenary, Burglar
Those meaty bits are pretty damn important and influence whatever idea of this ghost or soul or ego which is supposedly operating the machine. I'm pretty confident that we are our bodies and not some puppeteer behind the scene based off everything we know from neurobiology.
YESSSSS, I love how you called out how so many of those redpillers being insecure. XD I've known it's a fantasy for several years. They are so *insecure* that they can't make a 6 figure salary and be this really "successful" person, they think they're a better man by going and acting all tough.
Yeahhhh such a great thing when he calls out people who struggle with the exact issue he's describing in this video!!!!!!! Such a disappointing lack of empathy from your part, he literally said this isn't about men vs women. He also explicitly said the income expectation for men is nearing unachievable status for the average male due to inflation, hence people feeling insecure about it. It's never a good thing to make fun of people's insecurites, because most people would choose to abandon those in a second. Your comment is the exact example of a toxic comment, good job.
Healthy masculinity = Uncle Iroh
TRUTH
Zuko was guided by the right man that’s for sure
Uncle K
Lmao YES
Absolutely. Uncle knew how to be manly but also not be a toxic influence on his nephew (and friends)
The definition I keep coming back to comes from an interview from Peter Cullen about how he chose his voice for Optimus Prime. One of the creators/directors basically told him to “be strong enough to be gentle” and I’ve lived with that knowledge since, it’s helped a lot in my life.
blessed knowledge
Wow
Let me guess. That was from his interview during the Netflix documentary called “The Toys that Made Us” for the Transformers episode. I liked that quote too.
I stand corrected - it was his brother that said it, oops
This reminds me of the quote "if you don't hurt others but you're not capable of doing harm anyway, you're not a pacifist, you're harmless." Not that being harmless is wrong or bad, but there's a different kind of strength in having power but choosing to use it to be kind and do good in the world instead of destroying and controlling.
It’s funny because even as a women I have felt the hardships and drawbacks of what it is like to fill that masculine role. My family members look up to me as a role model. I need to always be dependable because everyone around me looks up to me and relies on me for support. My opinion matters. I’m also a big protector, for me it’s super important to take care of those I care about. Constantly playing the stoic role is really damaging however. I easily deal with other peoples emotions on a daily basis but it is so so hard for me to be able to open up and express my emotions to others. It doesn’t feel safe. I feel I have to always be strong and I can never show a sign of weakness. I talk about my emotions but I always make sure to keep my distance when I do so. It’s a lot of pressure and I can really sympathize and empathize with men for that reason.
This comment really speaks to me. I hope you find places to feel safe.
As an older brother I sometimes I wish I had older brothers to be the dependable ones.
@@lancetan7699 Thank you!
That really means a lot man. And same to you!
I hope you find someone you can feel safe enough around. I can relate a lot with what you said, after 2 years of therapy I can now open up to anyone in my family for example, but it was hard reaching this is point.
It's always cathartic when women experience what it's like to be a man and feel how incredibly lonely and soul crushing it is to be us.
Stoicism and responsibility aren't just male traits. You might be feeling that way because society has succesfully hidden the responsibility of women and the historical western female culture from you.
Women have just as much responsibility as men, but the roles and the nature of how they deal with that should be different.
You might find that if you relinquish your male ideas of how to be successful you might actually find it easier to be that person other people need you to be.
What really resonated with me was the fact that the “healthy” should be prioritized more than the “masculinity” or “femininity”. Too often, I see people do the opposite, becoming caricatures of what they believe to be the gender role they identify with
fr fr. too many people identify with the sex they are first before they identify with the fact that they are a person. I saw someone else in this section say that they generally believe that being a man is having confidence in who you are as a person rather than it being what you do. And honestly I agree.
I think the reason why is because we have to separate the two to understand them and apply them to our lives. It's like a light switch - when you turn on the light you also "turn off" the darkness, and when you turn off the light you "turn on" the darkness. The two sides are both valid and true but cannot coexist together because they are opposites. In the same way, e.g. it's considered a masculine trait to stand up for yourself and your friends when someone does you or them wrong, but it is much more feminine to freeze or run away from fear. You can't do both, but sometimes there are situtations where it's better to stand up for yourself, and other times when it's better to just walk or run away. It could be a life or death situation that you need to be wise about. And so there is a time and a place for everything, you just need wisdom to know the difference.
Tbh, I think people focus on masculine part because they think being "masculine" will help them get laid or have a relationship while being "healthy" is all about self. Totally not true.
I see the exact opposite where genders are becoming obsolete bc of the intense push for gender equality. Men becoming more feminine and women becoming more masculine. And now nobody is happy bc they’re trying too hard to conform to societal expectations.
@@Delta_2512 women are weak, men are strong - that's why masculine traits are those that involve things like fighting and female traits are those that avoid conflict
I know a lot of guys in real life - like family members and friends, for example - who I would say show traits of "healthy masculinity".
Those guys are both confident and humble at the same time, and they follow their ambitions and remain calm and collected when they have disagreements with people, and they will immediately defend their friends if they are in danger in some way.
Yes, thats like IT. I believe I embody those traits maximally as well
Every time I think of healthy masculine traits I eventually come to the conclusion that those traits are beneficial for everyone. Why shouldn't we expect both our sons and daughters to be assertive when necessary, pick up survival and first aid skills, cook healthy meals, be able to jump a car/change a tire, stay physically active, be able to support people when they're down, be proud of their accomplishments, be able to financially support themselves, be nurturing and protective of children, etc?
Imo it's hard to balance those all in reality and to do all of them with best ability all put into a single person. However, that is probably a good ideal. In my mind though, if I have a (female) partner then I see it as if she has maximal feminine abilities and I have maximal masculine abilities, then we can do so much more as a pair than if I were to create a balance within myself as a lone person.
@@gumfun2 The labor doesn't have to be divided along gendered lines. The best person in the relationship should do each respective job, as long as everything stays about equal. I wouldn't take charge of finances if my SO was a great accountant.
Masculinity and femininity aren't prescriptive, they're descriptive. Traditionally masculine virtues are an emergent pattern; "what do admirable men tend to have in common?"
The social mandate to adjust to that comes after, not the other way around.
So yes, both genders should aspire to both masculine and feminine virtues.
@@Herosoyyo2 they are both presciptive and discriptive at the same time, they emerge intertwined, together, and it's impossble to separate them, just like it's impossible to dissect a living thing while it's still alive.
That’s exactly the same thought I had. Healthy masculinity is being a competent, compassionate, coordinated human.
I'm very lucky that even though I'm a single mom, my own father is the best male role model that my kids can have. Because he's not just a man who has "healthy masculinity", he's a good human being. He's the kind of person I want to be.
Well, probably not the best if you ended up as a single mom.
@@ilikepancakes2368 Rare to see such a childish, judgeing comment on an HG video. you know two people are involved in a relationship, right? OP's partner could have easily been the one at fault, or both people. We don't know anything, OP's partner could've died or something. Seems your father wasn't the best either with you leaving comments like this.
@@vickysmashesyouwithahammer you cite every possible outcome aside from OP being at fault lol.
@@vickysmashesyouwithahammer Put those two quotes from AGamerMom00! together: "my own father is the best male role model that my kids can have" and "He's the kind of person I want to be." I can sense some problem there :) If I was her partner, I'd run like hell.
@@vickysmashesyouwithahammer Oh yeah sure. Cause a woman can get pregnant by accident right? Please. Based on what I’ve seen, women who end up as single mothers tend to fall for the same type of guy which is why I said her father probably failed her if he didn’t set the guideline on which men will be better to reproduce with. But then again, a father can only teach so much to a daughter that sometimes, a woman’s delusion will just end up getting the best of her and that is how you end up having a pattern of single mothers.
"healthy masculinity = being based" that chatter is on to something
Your comment is quite based too😏
W Take
Based means to be against the status quo.
@@the-based-jew6872 More accurately it means being true to yourself, whether that's against the status quo or not is irrelevant.
@@Tystolfo This.
For my part, "toxic masculinity" is just like "toxic courage". Aristotle spent a lot of papyrus talking about the virtues, and how a virtue is the "golden middle" between two excesses. If he hadn't had a word already for "excess of courage" (I think the usual English translation is "recklessness" or "foolhardiness", but since I've never read Nichomachean Ethics in English, I'm not entirely sure), I don't see why he wouldn't have used "toxic courage" to describe what he was going on about. While courage (the virtue) is for example displayed in running into a burning building to save someone, "toxic courage" would be running into a burning building just to show that you can, that you're not afraid of fire (or death).
I also don't see why "masculinity" shouldn't be considered a virtue on its own, or at least a broad term for a collection of virtues and how they're "properly" displayed in a masculine person (the "proper display" being in some way tempered by our culture). Too much and it's "toxic", too little and it's, I don't know, "weak"?
Very insightful! Ty!
Great episode.
I like Cinema Therapy’s episode Aragorn vs Toxic Masculinity. I love the line “you can decapitate orcs and write poetry. Yah, they’re not mutually exclusive”
but if he didn't decapitate orcs and only did poetry would he still be considered a manly man? the "kill X group" is doing a lot of the heavy lifting here don't you think?
I like listening to you because you have the right idea; men and women should be working together to solve the problems that society has placed upon us oftentimes by tradition. None of this oppression olympics stuff; we're all human and there are problems we all have, and we need to work together to fix them particularly in a world that moves as quickly as ours.
There's no way we aren't going to have an oppression Olympics. You're dealing with very hurt people that haven't dealt with their trauma
I feel as though men and women are balancing these strengths, and “boys and girls”/“males and females” are combating weaknesses. “Man” is an ideal you hold in your mind, same with “Woman.” When I grew up, though I was in a traditional household, I had mostly negative male peers and role models. Still, no major extremes, so I’m grateful for that. I turned to building up strengths in a sort of feminine sphere, to learn acceptance and appreciation and move away from cynicism and resentment. I’ve been fighting with resentment my entire life. Self acceptance was the real challenge, the hidden goal, and it has been a long 10 years of confronting it after identifying my ego as something that could destroy me.
I didn't have a dad growing up. I had to develop an idea of masculinity on my own. The most important part of masculinity or gender identity itself is confidence in your identity. Everything I do is masculine, and I'm comfortable with it. I may not be apt as a mechanic or other hands on work, but I'm a man and am comfortable with it. I think it applies universally to men, women and nb persons. Simply owning who you are is a successful adaptation into your gender role.
❤️
I didnt have a dad either, so i havent had a sense of identity for pretty much my whole life. Im turning 23 and ive only started feeling confident about 2 months ago. My masculinity is something im still trying to discover, but overall, my newfound confidence will help me find it, that identity for me.
I really like the part at the end where you say that women get judged by other people either for staying home or for choosing a career and not having kids and that what we can all do as humans is stop judging ourselves because others will always judge. Would love to see a video going more into depth on that. I think a lot of men and women feel like we can't win. I think it's great that society is starting to recognize that any gender can do anything, but now it seems like we are expected to do EVERYTHING, and that gets overwhelming.
@Terrorists Win Why are that the only two options? That's stupid.
Why can't people in a relationship just decide amongst themselves who gets to do what? It's either "we take your autonomy as a person away" or being exploited by a heartless system? Why? How is that fair for anyone? Seems like that would make people miserable regardless of gender.
Also, why are you pretending that like being a housewife is inherently easier? Do you have any idea how much shit women have to clean? Especially when they have children?
If the amount of labor is unequally distributed and one of the people in the relationship doesn't like that, why can't they just talk? Why do any rights need to be taken away?
As for the shitty things men have to do: why don't we stop oppressing men instead of being like: "Let's oppress both genders"? Why not make things better for everyone? Nobody needs to sacrifice themselves for shitty jobs if we actually stood up together.
We can build something better.
'it's great that society is starting to recognize that any gender can do anything'
im sorry but thats been a thing for a long time. if anything its starting to go backwards these days due to the polarisation on each side.
also, what do you mean by you are expected to do everything?
@Terrorists Win TF are you smoking man!?! You sound like an incel.
@Terrorists Win You sure know alot about women considering you've never talked or been with one 🤣
@Terrorists Win "you get to sleep around and vote"
LMAO
I was literally talking about this with some of my gym bros not too long ago. We were able to shift one of our friends out of this "work out to be an alpha" mindset to a "work out because its good for you" kind of mindset. This stupid "alpha male" mindset is so poisonous to men.
Well its a mental response of heavy anti men rhetoric , where men = toxic masculinity= potential rapist and mysoginist. Right now the net in not really favorable to the young men , so they choose distant communities where they are told that they are not the problem , but the world is. Which is a problem too , cuz those communities may turn radical too, where red pill and black pill comes from.
the sigma/alpha/beta crap is just horoscopes for men
why are we comparing ourselves to _dogs_
@@AFunkyFella dogs don't even do this bullshit. From what I know, pack structures are lead by seniority (I.e. mom and dad lead the pack) I might be wrong tho
Yeah I agree. It is ridiculous. I work out for myself and myself alone. If that makes me alpha, whatever, if I am beta to someone, whatever. It is all so childish.
@@Wyrm3 AFAIR this happens to wolves in captivity. But researching animal social structures in captivity is equal to researching human society by watching inmates.
My perspective on masculinity as a woman: I have reflected a lot on this, what it means to be masculine and feminine in a positive sense and toxic sense. I have realized that since early childhood, healthy femininity has been sold to me as something that was wrong and needed to be suppressed. I was explicitly told that to be a good person that I had to perform masculinity(be strong, stoic, hyper independent, to be the care taker and the provider, to sacrifice myself my happiness peace time and energy for everyone else’s well being). This was communicated to me by family members, TV, and even teachers. Positive masculine traits were the only acceptable thing, and so I embodied that, the more I did, the more praise and reinforcement I got, but also the worse everything in my life became, my mental health and physical health. My interpersonal relationships were affected and I was so exhausted and burnt out. I resented the world because playing a man was killing me(I was actually getting sicker with multiple health issues). it wasn’t an authentic expression of who I wanted to be but something that became second nature due to brainwashing and habits that had been solidified for years. At 20, I had my first romantic connection with a young guy(2 yrs older than me), the first month went amazingly, my natural femininity had emerged really strongly for the first time in my life. I felt safe, happy, soft, playful, attentive, energized, and truly free. The guy was embodying healthy masculinity(positively claiming a women, to understand her and love her and be responsible for her). He expressed to me that I brought this value to him that I wasn’t even aware of. But this fizzled out soon as my masculine conditioning took over awakening his feminine conditioning. I got so disregulated when that happened. Suddenly I no longer had this safe strong masculine presence. I was turning into the decisive leader in the relationship and I hated it. I felt alone and abandoned(eventually I was). He got mad and resentful because suddenly all my positive femininity had disappeared. I think as a society, we have to really examine the energy we’re embracing, and stop pushing the narrative that men and women are interchangeable and the same or worse that either sex has to reject healthy embodiments of their energies and fully transform to embrace the opposite energy. Every person needs a bit of both positive energies in themselves(and even a healthy integrated shadow). We also need that from others, but there has to be a balance and at the same time polarity within one’s self and with others.
I really like this comment
Very profound and insightful, thank you for sharing!
This rings very true for me. I think in a practical sense it's good if both people in a heterosexual relationship can show up "both ways" because nowadays it's more beneficial if both people work and both people take care of the family and household. However, there is indeed a polarity between men and women and it feels unnatural and weird to most of us to reject or reverse that polarity. So even if a man is a stay at home dad, he can embody the positive energies of masculinity, like being a protector, proactive planner and mentor, and his wife will probably thank him for it. On the flip side, even a career driven woman who is tough in the outside world can reserve some of her softness and playfulness for her man, who will be just as grateful. We seek out relationships that complement us and make us something we couldn't have been alone.
It was that point in the video that Dr. K lost me. "If this is what healthy masculinity is, then why can't women be those things too?" The answer is because healthy masculinity is great for men, and needed in the world, but it only is half the equation. If everyone is doing the same half, humanity/society gets out of balance. On top of that imbalance, in even asking the question you are subtly, and perhaps unknowingly, devaluing femininity and *all* it brings. Making it "less than" masculinity. In short, it isn't progressive, it's actually being misogynistic. It just... irks me.
I'm still trying to understand it, to explain it better. That is just what I see.
@@Thungon yeah, in my journey of rediscovering my suppressed femininity I have just realized how demonized and disregarded femininity truly is. There is a subtle misogyny in suggesting that the way women become better humans is through embracing masculine traits(which should be done but not as a substitute for embracing femininity). I find it difficult for myself to even define femininity as my American culture doesn’t really seem to know. I don’t think obedience for example is actually a healthy embodiment of femininity but this is one of the few pervasive ideas of femininity in the west. I think curiosity especially at the expense of obedience(not true submission) is an extremely feminine characteristic(think of the most famous example of Eve in the garden of eden). Then we wonder why redpill communities and incels villainize women for not being “submissive”(obedient) or otherwise being nonconforming to distortions of femininity. Not only are women not taught what it means to be positively feminine, and it is programmed out of us so we forget and resist it when it emerges.
Masculinity is both a pressure a lot of men face, but its also seen with a lot of resistance when its questioned whether those values are are actually healthy. I think its because if you question it you're killing the "dream" as it were, and you're essentially telling them the vulnerable state they feel in now, which a lot of us run from is where you have to stay because "hey, we're getting rid of your masculine dream now, there's no space for this in society anymore". However i feel that vulnerability IS the much harder, but more truthful route to inner strength.
Well sure, that's part of it, but I don't think it's good practice to ascribe other people's resistance (when you explicitly set out to tear down their value systems) just to fear or attachment. People adopt their ideals because they see something in there, whether they can verbalize it or not; I'm not sure you're leaving any space here for the good in masculinity. If you think of anything as archetypal as "masculinity" or "femininity" and only negative associations come to mind, you're absolutely missing part of the picture.
I agree that strength is found through weakness and vulnerability, and I do think people understand and practice that to a reasonable degree. But a common mistake men make, emotional intelligence being a more traditionally feminine virtue, is to just push their weakness around until they lose sight of it instead of seeking to understand it at its root. I say that cause I've done it. It's easy to think you've done the work and you're a better person now when you achieve the specific result you set out for, even if you brute-forced it through emotional repression or self-deception of some kind.
I don't think meditation, self-love, and working with what you called "vulnerability" are usually seen as masculine things, but people certainly recognize the virtues they produce as masculine. Everybody knows Dr. K is a chad. We're all a little bit lost as to which way we should get there, but we tend to admire people with genuine virtues worth admiring.
Do you speak from experience?
Given how many female content creators are making "where are all the real men?" style posts right now...I'd say there's still a ton of demand for the "masculine dream." At least from a woman's perspective for what she considers attractive. The struggle is THAT masculine dream is often a nerve wracking tightrope for men to walk because they are expected to be both the old and the new. Confidant, determined, and capable but also emotional, vulnerable, and empathic. Except, never TOO vulnerable, never TOO empathic, never TOO emotional. "Confidence is sexy" is the number one driving factor for how men are expected to handle relationships, so of course what you get is a range of men that run from vulnerability to varying degrees. More often than not, open vulnerability is simply not rewarded with positive outcomes.
@@TheNynax this is why I think alot of the "new" thinking on this stuff is a scam. I judge people by what they do rather then what they say....everything seems more truthful that way.
The resistance comes from men usually when women tell them that behaving like a man is toxic and they should just adopt more female traits. In condescending and also DOES NOT WORK
#1 I think the term 'toxic masculinity' is extremely toxic in itself, since it implies that men's acting toxic (being jealous, aggressive, controlling, self-important) has some connection to being male. In reality, women do the exact same toxic things and you don't hear about 'toxic femininity' at all. So either make it equal for everyone and speak of toxic juvenility, toxic Asianhood etc. or just speak of toxicity in general (far more logical option).
#2 If you construe your masculine identity as a negation of femininity, then you'll find that the more things historically reserved for men women do nowadays (wearing a tuxedo, being a bodybuilder, being a leader etc.), the more your identity is in danger of annihilation, so you'll naturally get defensive (and bitter).
ive never thought of this. thank you, i realized how brainwashed i am
The whole theory of toxic masculinity isn't as simple as that and can't be debunked by a short deductive a to z logic comment. Toxic masculinity is a behaviour steming from the social pressure to fit into a role assigned to the male biological gender: i.e A young boy born biologicaly male understand that he should be like what boys need to be (being protective aggressive, controlling, self-assertivness etc...) which probably don't fit the world he lives in utility and leads him to adopt a unrequired toxic behaviour which again stems from the masculine role he adopted.
If it is an excess of it or the concept itself of masculinity itself that is a problem is another question.
Yes, thank you.
@@SirBojo4 being aggresive is a good thing. It allows one to destroy enemies in a more effcient way. It might only be considered 'bad" if you actually plan to be his enemy...
@@SirBojo4 Well… thats ironic. Woman in our current soceity is pushed and being told that they should act in more of an ”self pleasing” way. Its ok for woman to act controlling, manipulative, selfish etc. But still the same people complain about toxic masculinity? Its also the fact that our soceity have for ages pushed that women deserve a gentleman, someone who provides for them, someone who spoils them. meanwhile men have to accomplish everything them self to have these advantages in life.
Thank you for being a healthy role model for boys and men, Dr. K!
Keep in mind that independence REQUIRES a support network. A job isn't the only part to being independent. Developing a robust support network comprised of multiple UNRELATED individuals (friends and family and partner are the usual 3 groups to choose from, though you could probably find multiple sub-groups in either if the other is lacking) is a critical component of independence, as otherwise you risk one bad family member or one bad relationship or one bad friendship completely destroying your life. And sure you aim to provide for yourself while you have work, but what will you do if your work decides to fire you? Being able to rely on others on fair terms is very important.
Masculinity can't be toxic by definition. Masculine traits are ALL good.
It's like calling intelligence toxic, that doesn't make sense. Arrongance may come with high intelligence. But the problem is arrongance, not the intelligence itself. The same applies to masculinity.
Masculinity can be toxic. It can be misused to take advantage of others and to put them down. The tool is being used for toxic scenarios which makes it toxic. If you use the tool positively, then it will be positive masculinity.
I think it depends on where you look, because I've seen plenty of messaging that implies that masculinity in itself is toxic, which is absolutely false - and I've also seen women shit on men en masse (and be applauded for it) in a way where if the tables were turned, nobody would stand for it. That is wrong too, and I think much of the anger comes from unresolved trauma. When I think of healthy masculinity, I think of the man who runs the academy where I train in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai. He's fairly stoic and focused, but also good-humored. He is critical but also patient and encouraging. And more than anything else, he has the kind of calmness that comes from the knowledge that he can absolutely destroy anybody in a physical conflict. He can protect anyone in a way that very few are able. We need more healthy father figures in our world, because an absent father figure is harmful to both boys and girls and they often grow into confused and conflicted adults who struggle in life and act out that absence in different unconscious ways. I would also caution about discouraging naturally-showing masculine traits in boys, which is no more healthy than discouraging naturally-showing feminine traits.
My maladaptations were the following things to become, I guess “independent":
- Closing off from my emotions and people by numbing myself through binge gaming.
- Exercising a lot to stay in that flight or flight high.
- Placing a facade that I am always fine and nothing phases me.
- Turning to “positive vibes” and mindset to avoid sadness.
- Using Law of Attraction to “change my inner state” and being stubborn not acknowledging my sadness.
I still struggle with opening up with sadness ehe…
With the exception of hiding from my sadness and emotions, I feel like I do those things. I don't see what's wrong with exercising to feel better. I sure don't know what else I'd do. I also feel trapped and so have been playing a lot of games lately. My job as a cashier can be fun too though, so maybe I should just work more hours since I at least get paid to do that.
@@JonathanTash Awesome! I guess for me, the problem arose when I thought these were 'tools' for coping mechanisms (such as past traumas), but in actuality I used it as a numbing tool to not make me look at problems / improvements I want to do in life.
It made me not see of my problems because I thought the "maladaptations" we all-in-one solutions to life and I didn't recognize what I was doing until someone pointed out to me that I was not even attempting to fix my problems.
It's scary cause for me, it became something like this:
(As an example)
"Oh, your parents got divorced at a young age, and you got bullied at school? Don't worry, meditation, LoA and lots of exercise is all you need."
I think you nailed what "toxic" masculinity is when you said it's an exaggeration of masculine traits. That really rings true. Men that can embody their OWN masculinity are attractive. Not the puffed up, ego-driven version of it that is really a mask for insecurity. Self-sufficiency is an excellent foundation on which to build. It breeds self-esteem and personal accountability, which you have to have to maintain relationships. Work relationships, romantic relationships, friends. It doesn't matter. If you are insecure, you can't maintain intimacy. Either because you can't enforce your own boundaries or you're trying to control others.
I'm very thankful for this video for a number of reasons. One important thing I took from your view on this topic is that genders tend to judge themselves just as harshly. So far it seemed to me like you tend to judge men way harsher than women. For example if women complain a certain trait about men you tend to accept it more than the other way around. BUT after watching this video I might have misjudged some things. You explained that gender issues are way more complex than most people want to believe.
I still kinda feel like men get treated more harshly in many vids but that might also be due to the fact that we tend to focus on men on this channel.
Ive been actively working on a video essay to do with masculinity and positive masculinity and am so glad you made this video. You were on my list of male role models in my life along with Uncle Iroh, my brothers, and Aragon from Lord of the Rings, so seeing this video is extremely encouraging.
Im glad that some young men have been able to recognize the toxicity of some of the ideas that are being shared on the internet as of late and glad you could shed light on the situation. Ill definitely be referencing this video a lot over the course of my project.
Uncle Iroh from Avatar: the Last Airbender is a top tier example
A fictional character ?!
JESUS take the wheel and drive us off a cliff..
Woman here: I got a great story for this! *Gender roles are a double edged sword.*
My Grandpa Ed was a good man. He worked in local government organizing public works projects in the 1930s-60s. He made middle class money. Grandma Jane also worked - in the roles she was allowed to - as a librarian and a teacher. She couldn't make much money. Now my aunties really, really wanted their own rooms. They were 7 years apart and jealous of my dad who had his own room. My older aunty put pressure on Grandpa Ed to add a bedroom to the house. Being a naïve and immature kid, she made it about "Why don't you make more money Dad?"
Think about how that might have made Grandpa Ed feel. He was a good man by all standards of the time. He was providing by doing good work. And yet, the gender roles of the time places the majority of the responsibility for the family's finances on him.
Think about how that might have made Grandma Jane feel. She got a lot of crap as a librarian and a teacher - I'm talking actual verbal/emotional abuse from students. She just wasn't respected in her lower-paid, "feminine" jobs. The gender roles of the time barred her from making more money.
So yes, gender roles cut both ways.
I'm only half way through, but so far this has been an insightful and nuanced take on the pressures we can feel based on our gender. Really interesting stuff! Thanks for making it :)
Starting with the segment at 19:29, Dr. K considers independence (i.e. keeping yourself and your house clean especially) and responsibility to be the two most important elements of modern masculinity.
Jordan Peterson's first rule is to "Stand up straight with your shoulders back" and "Treat yourself like someone you are responsible for helping", both tying into responsibility and the confidence to achieve that. JP's sixth rule is "Set your house in perfect order before you criticize the world" (i.e. "Clean your room!") which is essentially Dr. K's whole spiel on keeping yourself and your house clean. Most of JP's rules could relate to either independence or responsibility. That's why people were/are drawn to him.
I just found this interesting, how in line these ideas are to each other.
Brilliant video, thank you! Everything you said here resonates strongly with my experiences. I am probably much older than most of your audience (60), so I have seen and lived a lot of the ongoing gender role evolution. Starting from my dad saying it's a waste of money to send a girl to college because they'll just get married and waste it, and my mom being super negative about men being "househusbands" supported by their wives, to where we are today. I lament the sort of "armed camp" vibe from factions of both (all?) genders, but I am optimistic it's still a phase we're passing through on the way to a healthier place for all genders.
Will such a place be healthier? We already know that people are significantly less happy than they were so it is interesting that you believe we are making things better with changes.
@@Turamwdd It will be healthier than hyping up our differences instead of our similarities, IMO. I don't think the "a woman's place is in the home, washing dishes and making babies" approach was better or happier, for anyone except the men. You're welcome to a different opinion, but I'm hanging on to mine.
I used to be a very vulnerable child before around middle school, where being that way was a danger to me. So I adopted tough masculinity to protect myself from people in my school. (I had moved states in-between middle school so it was hard to get used to different cultures) so because of that I never appreciated my natural masculinity because I had to wear it like a safety blanket in all situations, even with friends. Only recently like a few weeks recently, have I dropped the veil and mask of toughness and manliness to show my true softer and more feminine nature that I actually felt comfortable presenting and being. It took a lot of life experiences, homelessness, living in stores, losing close friends and consistent state hopping due to work to finally feel safe enough and confident enough to just be me, so with that I've embraced the gender neutral me that I always wished I felt safe enough to just be, but now I'm older and capable of handling my business and convictions, and I haven't been happier before this, but! With this new self acceptance I've also been relearning to enjoy my masculinity the way I was always supposed to, on my own accord, my way
Lol I was once judged by another guy for not being masculine because I cross my legs when I sit sometimes. 🤣 I'm like " Is there nothing to be said for casual comfort?"
not only is it healthy, it is necessary to being the best man you can be.
But what does it mean to be the best man I can be?
@@alecrochon3531 what benefits you the most.
funny, as a girl i was always told to be (financially) independent and responsible and keep good hygiene. indeed those aren't specifically goals for men, just for everyone.
funny, when its a female problem you are saying it only applies to women
its such an overrepresentation that you dont know how it feels without being male :)
I feel though we should be careful about single, personal examples, when thinking about an entire population. It might be you, but not the average. That's what studies on this stuff are useful for :)
Yeah, I think an important piece often left out of the gender standards and “what does being a man/woman mean?” conversation is that most traits of being a good man/woman are traits that a good *human* probably has. Also, people tend to gloss over culture is a strong force in determining what an ideal “man/woman” is, and the primary reason one society views a “man” as one thing is because they went through different historical and cultural events. In some cultures, financial independency is not necessarily tied to living on your own (cultures where it's the norm to live at home to your mid-late 30's or beyond for example), whereas in many modern cultures those two things are part and parcel, and living at home as a man might be considered a personal failure, which might not be the case.
But you were most likely never told to become financially independent so that you can provide for a woman.
I’ve kinda noticed that toxic masculinity is a culture of deprivation. “Don’t do this don’t do that” type of thing. Like “don’t have feelings” “don’t be a coward” “don’t be weak” “don’t be ‘a woman’” etc etc etc. I think healthy masculinity is choosing to do affirmative things instead, or at least, approaching things in a personal and affirmative way. If you want to be a protector, you should do it because you want to protect others, not because you’re afraid that you’re not manly enough if you don’t. Toxic masculinity is fear and deprivation. Healthy masculinity is acceptance. It’s almost a little bit funny (as a trans guy) that even cis guys are now experiencing what can basically be described as gender dysphoria because it’s impossible to completely meet the societal standards or masculinity. Welcome to the club of “people using your gender as a way to attack you personally for a failing that isn’t your own fault”.
One thing I remember from an old Biology class I had that was related to the subject... if you'd like some context, I went to a low income high school with metal detectors.
Our teacher one day was doing a class on sexual dimorphism found in nature and we had a decent bit of downtime. To be more to the point, eventually a few kids got the teacher to do a quick quiz. She asked us: "You are all now lottery winners. You have more money than you could ever use in 5 lifetimes, and your mother's birthday is soon. What do you buy for her?"
Every last guy straight up said they're buying their mom a house. The girls of the class however, were saying things like vacations to the Bahamas and Japan and all sorts of.. personal experience things. Things that you think back to 15 years ago and say "Oh it was so great to be there with Josephine it was so cool".
Do you think that has anything to do with sexual dimorphism?
A house bring alot of comfort and seeing my mom work 12 hour days i want to help pay off things so she doesnt have to work so much. A vacation is a good memory yes, but a house provides comfort that a vacation cant buy. And a vacation comfort doesnt last long.
@@laxfan1238 Yeeee, I'd buy my mom a house anytime I could. I'm sure my sis feels the same way about it though
living in a house for 15 years >>>>>>>> thinking back of a cool vacation in 15 years
Males - resolution of an issue. Females - a nice experience.
I gotta say, I was pleasantly surprised by this video. I came into it ready to be pissed, because I am so used to the voices who are so pathologically anti-male and shame men for the mere fact of their existence. But that was not what this was at all; it was a very reasonable and well thought out approach. So many times, when broaching the topic of toxic masculinity, the speaker takes the approach of, "masculinity is not bad, just toxic masculinity is bad," but then proceed to label all masculine behavior as toxic, so the result is still the same. It is nice to hear an actual good take on the subject for a change.
I think the incessant disclaimers are necessary, at least on the internet, because 1) if you don't, people just assume the worst of you and 2) it makes it so you're not so easily clipped and taken out of context by those who would dishonestly use what you say. The internet has a huge problem of people arguing deceptively and in bad faith. The overall goal isn't to find truth, it's to dunk on the other team.
You can still get clipped out of context even with disclaimer. Better to just leave them out and say what you got to say. Life doesn't give you a disclaimer when it's your turn to get hit in the balls with an obstacle.
It kind of annoys me that people Always define traditional masculinity in this way because that's not how it was in my environment. As many generations back as i've heard, men and women were always equally the providers and equally the leaders. There was just division of labor. Men did more of the work in the fields and larger crafting, like woodwork and women did more cooking, cleaning, childcare, and smaller crafting like making clothes for everyone. When salaried work came around, both worked, although cooking, cleaning and childcare still remained more women's responsibilities.
My grandparents were always bickering or teasing each other, but not like one being the "leader". To me, that whole concept just seems like something made up by American movies.
I actually have a theory based on my passing interest and basic understanding of masculinity and femininity.
It seems to me that in the modern age, there was a strong push from the civil rights movement for compassion and understanding, which are traditionally feminine characteristics (as opposed to the masculine characteristics of independence and strength). So we taught kids to care for one another and be understanding of individual circumstances, but we never taught them how to tell people to f--- off, even if they did nothing wrong, for the sake of individuals' sanity. The crushing weight of society's problems came crashing down onto people, kids, who have no tools to do anything about it. The internet exacerbated these issues - it turns out, education is not the end-all solution to every social problem.
It's in instances like this where you actually NEED to become separate from the issues. Forget about what the world needs, take care of yourself and become a pillar that can stand on its own - THIS is a masculine ideal. Now, don't be an idiot: the criticisms made against what we've dubbed today as "toxic masculinity" are absolutely valid. Men and women SHOULD be considered equal, NEITHER men nor women should be gatekept from jobs or positions because of their genders (well, maybe with some exceptions). But I think a social pullback is required on some of the "progress" that we've made.
The constant drive that pushes people toward worrying about others and the need to satiate the societal gaze is not wrong. I really don't think it is. But I think people also need to be strong for their own sake, and need to learn that if you push against someone, like in a competitive workplace environment, that they'll be okay (and that if they're not okay, that they'll at least be okay enough to walk away without being crippled). It's okay to ask people for directions! If they're bothered by you, it's not like things can get worse; you're already lost. Who cares if they think you're an idiot? But there's a chance that they won't be bothered at all and they'll help you find your way.
There's an idea from a clinical psychologist who worked with women who worked at large corporations in a competitive workplace environment, and he essentially told them that if they wanted a pay raise or if they wanted to move into higher positions that they feel they've earned or are more qualified for compared to others, that they should assert their own value and not be afraid of pushback. The men are doing it, and there's nothing wrong with the women doing it too.
@@Dimitris_Half
I think it's fine to be compassionate as a man :[ That's just how it's categorized traditionally. It's your problem if you think being feminine is bad kek
@@Dimitris_Half
If I explicitly say the opposite thing I don't think I am. I don't understand what it is you're trying to do here
@@Dimitris_Half
I'm gonna be honest I don't even know how to respond to you. If you think something being feminine is bad, that's your problem
@@blarblablarblar I mean, being compassionate as a man the way that women do is very likely to get the cops called on you for being a creeper. If I said or did half the shit the girls at my work say and do to each other I'd have been fired long ago. I can be compassionate but I have to do it in a masculine way, that's just recognizing the reality we live in.
Toxic masculinity is just a buzzword women created to vaguely complain about things men do in a new and inventive way, and then some re*arded activist types who lean way too hard on nurture vs nature and think we can socially construct the kind of utopia we want latched onto it. As much as I love the internet, it's given too many people a voice who absolutely do not deserve a voice.
The fact that the question “can masculinity be healthy” is a relevant topic a huge statement about the state of Western society at the moment. People are usually sooner to blame masculinity in general rather than to attempt to make any distinction between individuals.
There will never be videos about toxic femininity and misandry . I personally couldn't care less for myself since I am doing great in life but imagine you are telling some 5 year old kid that he's toxic just because he is displaying NORMAL male kid behaviour that he wants to play & spar with his friends . Even something as ''toxic'' as fighting is a great thing growing up for men and can be done via sports like wrestling but if you take all those male dominant activities away then you will have kids becoming confused and wanting to unalive themselves cuz they can't regulate their emotions and feel missunderstood cuz everyone is telling them to act feminine/stop behaving like a ''toxic man''.
Hell,remove even the word man from that equation and look at how people treat people with adhd/autism and how they want to actually put them all down and eradicate them/have all peers hate on them just because they are different
@@Conanraul toxic masculinity is not what you described. It's not two boys getting into a fight. Although don't say that's healthy. Since when agression is healthy?
This is one way modern feminist try to take control over men. Won't work but thats why. Im not saying men dont have shit to fix but cmon
i feel like its more so the way the term "toxic masculinity" is framed. Another commenter mentioned that on cinema therapy, the host calls it "limiting masculine beliefs" because it helps people understand what hes saying better. With "toxic masculinity" men may incorrectly assume that the individual speaking means that masculinity as a whole is toxic, when in reality most of the time, they just mean that a specific belief or behaviour tied to traditional masculinity is problem.
For instance, grit determination and persistence are positive traits of traditional masculinity but dealing with all of your problems with violence is a negative trait and would be a limiting masculine belief. Am I making sense to you?
@@kattodoggo3868 ''Toxic masculinity is not what you described''
''Fighting = aggresion = not healthy''
So,if atleast 50-60% of kids would want to practice SAFE fighting (if you think wrestling is ''aggresive'' then you are delusional) then they would still be seen as mentally unstable due to social norms from people acting exactly like you do,making said kids think there's something wrong with them for wanting something that has been normal since the dawn of time - > practicing sports/practicing safe fighting with friends instead of actually beating each other up for real .
Not all forms of fighting are 2 guys beating each other outside a bar
Toxic masciline? I only know Zyzz, so no toxic masculinity even bore in my mind. We all gonna make it brah
Zyzz is overhyped. Dude literally died from a heart attack by too much drug consumption and partying. I don’t know why dudes idolize him. The only thing I respect is his dedication to the gym.
@@ilikepancakes2368 its ok, we all gonna make it brah
@@ilikepancakes2368 who even cares about dying. zyzz still lives in us
Dude did have a congenital heart disease (though the roids and party drugs probably didn't help). His dedication to the gym wasn't that special. What was special was his encouragement of others.
Near the end of his life he told his brother he wanted to quit the whole arrogant partyboy Zyzz persona and start living a responsible, healthier life. Don't lift for Zyzz. Lift for Aziz Sergeyevich Shavershian. Lift for that skinny, insecure, goofy kid that believed that if he could do it, so could you. Take Zyzz's encouragement and become the person Aziz was on the cusp of becoming but tragically never got to realize. Truly confident. Someone truly worth being proud of.
We're all gonna make it brah.
@@STRVGNT Spoken like a true NPC, brah
I like how Dr K points out how It's very important to point out the challenges of each gender (both self reinforced and reinforced by society) instead of making it into a battle, I truly believe is the only way to achieve some understanding of each side
I dont think we got more independent as a species. Quite the contrary. People were able to survive and thrive in groups of hundreds. Today my survival is dependent on the work of millions of people, that produce and bring to my house food, water, medicine etc
The difference is that we no longer consider the people we depend on part of our community. We no longer do the work necessary for their survival out of a sense of duty, or because we care about them. We do it because we want money. This means they dont need to worry as much about what we think about their behavior. Because as long as they can still pay for our services we will probably continue providing them
23:50 I'm nonbinary, and when I was thinking about the concepts of masculinity and femininity, I couldn't really pinpoint a character trait that a man could have that I wouldn't appreciate in a woman. Most things just boil down to being a good person. Obviously society will try to focus on certain traits/behaviors, but when I clicked on this video I was wondering if Dr. K would reach this kind of conclusion as well. My growth as a person and unpacking what I really identify with masculinity and femininity and my peers through experience and discussion with friends led me to finding nonbinary (more specifically demiboy) as an identity that is fulfilling to every aspect of my life. It definitely comes with it's own set of expectations from society (which Dr. K goes into a bit later in the video), but I'm much happier with myself and where I am then before.
Yeah I find it to be the same. There's different parts of masculinity and femininity that are good and would be generally useful to everyone in the different circumstances they find themselves in. Like as a guy being able to understand your emotions and identify why you're feeling a certain way helps you to figure out a way to deal with it. (much more than just knowing that you feel like shit and dont know why you feel like shit).
tbh its just interesting to see other people that have a similar view to me on this topic.
I'm a guy and every ideal I would expect of myself I would value in someone regardless of gender. I work out, build my career, keep tabs on my mental state, cook my favorite food, build skills, socialize, lead when needed, and communicate my feelings to people I'm close to. All of these I would find to be admirable traits in anybody.
And that's why masculinity and femininity are energies reside both within one person regardless of gender. Also I do agree emotional maturity is a thing that both men and women should have especially of the older age.
before I get into this video I'm gonna say I think healthy masculinity is based off confidence and curiosity
It's interesting that the aspect of men being the ones that need to go out and work to provide has worked it way into our conceptions of masculinity as if it was always so, when before the industrial revolution a lot of industry and production was done in the home by women, while men typically did more of the physically demanding stuff such as working land or hunting, so the overall providing was originally a partnership and it's only the centralisation of the means of production into large factories owned by a few people that took that away.
Personal opinion: toxic masculinity doesn't exist, there is masculinity and femininity, there are toxic people who use said mentalities to do terrible things to others on both sides, so this argument that "toxic masculinity" is a problem is extremely flawed, there are toxic men and women on this earth, no changing that. Masculinity is a man who feels the duty to protect, provide and guide anyone who they care about, or to make it even better those who seek help or advice. To take responsibility for everything in his life and endlessly improve to make the lives of his loved ones easier to manage. Any man that uses the gift that is masculinity to harm, look down on, and put others down isn't a man, but simply a insecure coward
I don't like masculinity as a label. Some people might like being masculine, like that's fine with me. I'll personally just pick and choose aspects (for as much as that is possible) of how I want to be, labels be dammned.
I don't want to prove being a man, but I sure as hell think there's some good things inside the "man" box. From my point of view though, those are healthy things a lot of women would benefit from as well. And vice versa.
Why can't he ever just say that men are judged unfairly without mentioning that doesn't mean that women aren't judged unfairly? It's almost like he thinks the immature people will attack him. Tells a lot.
Absolutely!! As a female growing up in super agressive/ abusive patriarchal society. I adopted a mask that viewed men as non human. So afraid of getting hurt I lived my life as an alpha cuz that’s what we’re taught. I’m a heavy equipment operator in a coal mine and a fitness model ….. I am discriminated against and exist in toxic masculine environment. This recent stint I started looking into masculinity and found men deal with so much. I was more open. I never took a moment to look at how men experience this society and world. I’m a woman. How would I have any idea unless Intentionally setting out to understand in such a triggered world. But I did …. It is a human experience ….. while so many think men and females are two different entities and unfortunately many believing one is superior. But that hurt and trauma as I now understand…. We are collectively dealing with past patriarchal social constructs that no longer serve either sex. We are dealing with the human ness component and our lack of attention in such. We have a ways to go. But I am thankful with the newly trauma informed society as well as the sharing of our own stories that we will reach an understanding and point of empathy and connection and change can occur. 💖
I now rally for the men as well as the women. They are not my enemy. They are my brothers in this old construct but new world and demand. We need to go back to the drawing board. When things fail that’s what we do. Why not with this? Jussss sayinnn 💖💖💖 I see you and I am hopeful for the change. we need more than one ant to do it …. But it’s coming. 💯💯💯😊
you state that masculinity is toxicity, yet you claim to be for us men? Are you really? Or are you trying to have men be what YOU EXPECT them to be, so that its nice and good for YOU?
@@michajastrzebski4383 ok
A lot of the expectations of masculinity are toxic, but not all of masculinity is toxic in and of itself.
The biggest issue I see time and time again become a problem concerning toxic masculinity is really the name itself. Men so often feel attacked by the term alone and I think that has done a lot for men to shut down any discussion around it. Maybe there really needs to be a new term that is more intrigueing for men.
@@corneliahanimann2173 This right here is what I feel is a very important statement. And I can explain you why it attacks us. This term I feel is mostly used by women to describe men, it is rather rare that someone calls a women toxic masculine. And we are born masculine so masculinity is something we assosiate as something we couldn´t chose to be nor change and this term implies that there is something wrong in how we were born but what most people mean when they use this expression is basically somewhat like "your behaviour towards others or yourself impact you negatively". The word came to live because women see mostly men judging other men for something like opening up which doesn´t happen between women as much or hard, so it has to be the masculinity in them but not realising that they with their portrait of the perfect man can be as harmful.
I don´t think that there needs to be new term because the exact same thing will happen, I think what we need is just a shift in what we perceive as masculine and what is nessecary for a man to be a "man".
No shit!
this channel is an absolute treasure, even when I'm somewhat familiar with a topic I can always find something new and insightful here, this is quality stuff
All I know is as a college student who doesn’t really work because of the work load of my classes and family obligations, I am automatically disqualified as a potential partner for most women. Although I have so many positive qualities, the single factor that I don’t have a ton of money makes me an undesirable relationship candidate.
Doesn’t matter that I’m in school to get there, doesn’t matter that I’m going for my doctorate in Physical Therapy. It’s really upsetting to know that fact.
Yeah people generally don't care about the process to success and only focus on the results of success. It's a lonely world out there, and it really reinforces the idea that who you are and what your interests are really don't matter if it doesn't come with the luxuries of the upper class.
@@grillmaster95 yup. And it’s something I’m going to keep in mind when I do finally become successful. Those who weren’t around while I’m here, won’t be allowed in once I get where I want to be.
Yep that’s reality. Men have to build their value to society and people don’t care until you finish. Let’s be real though you wouldn’t want a girl who’s in the process of becoming hot you want the hot girl. It makes biological sense when you under stand males typically are a generation’s experiment with various new genes.
For people who claim to hate gender roles, they really do seem to love a man that can provide for them
Those are the shallow superficial people right there. Not everyone is like that and I hope you do meet good people along the way as everyone deserves to have support from loved ones
This is fucking gold! The differentiation between gendered toxic traits and general toxic human traits and reactionary over compensation.
Why did you delete the last video about toxic family's? I sow that it came out but then you deleted it, and I wanted to watch it...
Oh weird, I really liked that one
Chances are, prolly got taken down by TH-cam or something stupid 🤣.
@@oyfum2638 TH-cam be taking down videos for no reason...
I thought the same since it was privated maybe it may get put up at a later time or just needs some editing to be put up
@@wardenprinny5367 Yeah, I hope he'll just added it and then post it again
I'm so happy to hear you say it, K.
I've been under the impression for sometime myself that the real source of toxic masculinity/femininity stem from same-gender peer-influence, and within the individuals themselves in so far as they allow themselves to be toxic by internally condoning their behaviour and rationalising it as gender-appropriate. The insecurity in people really propel this problem fundamentally, as stereotypical masculinity/femininity offer a pre-made identity to prop up a lack thereof.
This problem is not going anywhere until we stop idealising certain stereotypes as superior. Now let it be said that I recognise that some behaviours have adaptive advantages given a context, but the ultimate point is that we have to strive to make society as viable a culture and context for everybody involved.
On a societal level, gender needs to become more irrelevant in all domains other than personal.
Male advice these days is so lacking and not generally fit for purposes imho. Your "be strong" anecdote is a perfect example. It's not helpful to many as it seems more of a cliché term rather than advice that can be understood and aid the person in their situation. Perhaps "Be strong by...insert example for person here" would be better, but many people don't know what to put after it, so it just gets shortened to the term we know today and people are just supposed to somehow know what to do from there.
Too bad good writers aren’t lauded as paragons of masculinity
3:30 - As far as i've heard lately, some scientists are not sure anymore, if the division was that strikt due to some archeologists might bring their ideology into the evaluation of archeological discoveries (Like "oh, there's a sword, so must be a men"), while the evaluation isn't always that easy to begin with, especially when they don't know exactely, how the culture burries people of different genders or if there's even a difference to begin with.
And to me that makes sense, since the survival of a tribe depends more on utilizing the full potential of each individual, thus a strong woman might still be more useful on a hunt or a weak man more useful on collecting stuff or processing things. Or the other way around, a tribe which forces someone to do something, they don't like, could easily weaken the productivity of the group, not to mention that sometimes the split between men and woman in a generation might not be ideal enough to divide the work by genders (like if you're unlucky you could get like a 80:20-split for an upcomming generation, but the work still needs to be done anyway, until the split normalizes again for the generation after that). And i wouldn't be surprised, if even up to this day the productivity of most cultures with tendencies towards gender roles hypothetically performs worse than the same culter without them.
Ultimately i've just heard it from 2 scientists in a show though, so i can't really link any studies about this kind of problem in the archeological field, so take it with a grain of salt.
I LOVE your point that healthy masculinity and healthy femininity at the core is simply being a healthy human. We all have so much more in common than different, there are very real struggles for both genders but in the end gender isn't that important.
@gnome from pinkerton How many genders are there?
@gnome from pinkerton absolute fucking batshit. Also gender is incredibly important and is extremely highly correlated with biology. It's absolutely mind blowing that people are still going around pretending that body chemistry has no effect on personality or brain development. It's like they never paid attention to a single day of biology class.
@gnome from pinkerton Thats one way of many to percieve gender, doesn't mean that it's the ultimate 'correct' one
I appreciate Dr. K and his community of viewers. I see a lot of thoughtful discussion and people encouraging each other in the comments.
25:05 This right here is the meat and potatoes of the whole topic.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter how you define it for yourself, because masculinity is only a factor in interpersonal relationships, in how people relate to you, it's irrelevant for your self (much like a sense of humor is irrelevant if you don't partake in any social capacity to make use of it), so the individual definition of masculinity of other people will be the determinant of whether or not you are masculine to them, you can't do anything about it. I could casually make my way down a street in a sleeveless shirt and based on how much care I have dedicated to my body image, a random passersby would say I'm toxic before I so much as made eye contact with them, much less opened my mouth. I do the same in Eastern Europe and they don't see a man, they see a broken human in a wheelchair, they see someone who used to be a man, at that point any display of masculinity to them comes off as meaningless theatrics... but I digress.
Masculinity in modern society is not something you have, masculinity is what people ascribe to you based on their individual definitions of what masculinity is. The more you are trying to be masculine by trying to adapt as many aspects of it as possible, the more you veer into toxic territory as far as your perception by other people goes. Therefore masculinity as a whole strictly in terms of a learned behavior is a useless catchphrase that doesn't help anyone become more masculine, it's a very poor self-help topic.
I literally never comment on youtube videos but this needs to be seen everywhere lol, the quality is through the roof for all the themes that are discussed. Bravo
TLDR: Don't let outdated societal gender norms dictate your life, do what makes you happy, because at the end of the day it's your life and you should be happy with the person that lives in your head, since they're the one that occupies 100% of your time
Full Comment: I think one of the best things I did for my own mental health in the past 3 years was to say "f*** it, I'm going to do things that makes me happy and more comfortable in my own skin" which for me was doubling down on my feminine traits, I always identified more with women than men. Two of the strongest people in my life growing up was my mom and sister, I have always looked up to both of them, I did have a dad, but he was always too busy doing the whole provider thing for the family to really be there for any of us, he wasn't a bad dad, just an absent figure, I also had an older brother and he did his best to do the whole big brother role, so I had a perfect split between male and female role models growing up. I was the middle child and ended being both my brother's and sister's best friend, I would do boy things with my brother and girl things with my sister and honestly I always liked the girl things better, I liked playing dolls, baking, fangirling over boy bands, etc, and I didn't think that was odd, nore did my family, things like that only felt odd once I got closer to my teens and society started telling me that I had to do/enjoy boy things and I just accepted, but my feminine quirks never went away, I just learned to hide them better, lucky for me in my late teens I met friends that supported me through any decision, slowly I let more of my quirks slip out and they never made me feel odd about them, but I still kept them hidden for the most part outside of my friends, but in the last few years I feel like society is finally slowly moving away from gender roles and I started to see more people who reminded me of me, but just open and happy without a care. So now I have a very androgynous style, let my love of pop show, allow my feminine mannerisms to just be part of me and honestly it's been great, haven't had any negative interaction, I even been complimented on my style and been called beautiful by women and as a guy, that's not something I thought I'd ever hear, men aren't "beautiful" they're "handsome, rugged, etc.) Even when I've been placed in scenarios where I thought the older generation would judge me, but so far all the "boomers" in my life still like me. My friend's dad actually passed away this year and he loved me, even described me as one of the most gentle people he had ever met and he was a huge manly man's man, tough dude from the LA streets, so when my friend told me what his dad thought of me, I melted on the inside, once again being described as "gentle" is traditionally something you don't want to hear as a men, but to me stuff like "beautiful" and "gentle" mean the world to me and make me feel like I belong. I guess my whole point with this I completely agree with everything Dr. K said on this video and I think man and women should be allowed to fill whatever gender role makes them happy and keeps them healthy, not what society tells them. I could've been a 6'2, 240+ lb muscle mountain of a man, with a full beard in traditional men's clothing and unhappy, but nope, I'm a 6'2, 165 lb slender framed guy, that likes dangle earrings, wearing girl shirts, skinny jeans and on rare occasion a very light amount of makeup. Also most of my male friends I would describe as typical dudes, I'm really the only oddball and they don't care. Anywho, I hope this comment helps out anyone who is struggling with gender norms, I also hope you have and/or find people that will support and love you no matter what you do in life ❤️
i related to this video so much i’m a trans man and i lost my dad at 14 when i was just starting my transition and coming into manhood has been very difficult for me as i feel like i’m taking his place as a young man, i’m expected to care for my family and provide for myself and i’ve provided a lot for my partner because i had a problem saying no. I knew my money was going away fast because i was paying for my cars gas to get my significant other around and myself around and paying for my and her food a lot because i felt like that was what i was meant to do. I got money from the government for a good amount of time it stopped when i was 18 and i’ve blown through so much because i didn’t manage myself or set boundaries better because i just thought providing was what i was meant to do and now when i could’ve had a more sturdy financial base i feel more nervous and i see myself cutting back because i know there’s not much left to do with that small amount. i almost wish i never had access to the money but even then i feel bad asking other people for that and anytime i don’t feel secure financially i feel obligated to turn to working more hours. Sometimes i wish things were different and someone provided for me in the way i’ve tried to provide for others but that makes me feel selfish because i know things can’t and shouldn’t just be given to me but it just seems like it would be nice at times. Selling drugs does seem like the best option at this point i never have but i just know i could probably be so much better of that way then working retail but it’s not worth the trouble. Overall i don’t feel comfortable bringing up these struggles because i know women face so many struggles worse than mine and just as you mentioned i’m trying to teach myself not to rely on anyone else because independence is what i value most in myself because it just feel that that’s what everyone’s always expected out of me and eventually it’s all i expect out of myself, i don’t try to seek out other people or community because i know that i’m meant to do most everything on my own and i truly believe the sooner i learn to manage myself the sooner i can manage taking care of my significant other, my family, and my future family. i’m failing at that right now but i’m always trying to think of what i can do for myself to be further off but as i sit and strategize i fall further behind
I used to think I was meant to do everything on my own. I don't anymore. I encourage you to consider that maybe you aren't meant to do everything on your own. Life has been and is hard for you. You said you think others have suffered more, so just like you stood up for their suffering, I'm standing up for yours.
I value independence very highly too. But I've learned that I have a tendency to isolate myself when I'm struggling, thinking people want me to, when in reality, most people don't. A healthy community wants to take care of its members. If people help you, and you can't give anything in return, it can feel like you're depending on them and that can feel terrible. But it may be that what they want isn't payment from you, but for you to get to a better place so you can pay it forward to others. They want that because it makes the community stronger, because that kind of cooperation helps them too in the long run. It can be hard to find these kinds of communities and people sometimes but they absolutely exist.
I suspect from what you've written that the expectations you're trying to meet may be unrealistic. There's no shame in failing to meet unrealistic expectations. No one can! I hope you can find a way to survive that doesn't carry as many risks to your future as what you're considering. Idk where you are, but you're online. Some advocacy groups online have crisis or support chats, idk if that's an option for you to try. Imo if you're seriously considering illegal activity, that's a crisis and you deserve to have some help to get to a better place that's safer for you and your future. Here's the really hard part, if you decide to ask for help and get rejected, don't give up, ask someone else. None of us can do it alone, it's literally impossible, there's no shame in it. Please reply back if you have questions, I'm glad you posted this and I'd be glad to answer them if that would be helpful for you. Good luck to you.
Women still have to carry the children, so we need men to be able to do more for us financially. I think both parties should contribute equally, but if you are having kids women have to do more in that area so the man must do more in other areas to help.
Dr K I really like your videos. I think a lot of men need to see this. Personally, as a woman, I put the same expectations on myself as any man would on themselves. And society can be limiting, both for me and my boyfriend. I want him to be a househusband, he wants that too. But if he constantly recieves shit for it, that's kind of limiting.
For me the question is, do masculine and feminine behaviours actually exist? What makes them be put in these categories?
Sounds to me like "being a man" is just a convenient tool to tell people to shut up and keep grinding, despite awful conditions/treatment.
To some extent there are behaviours which are linked to our biology. I.e. the closer link and connection mothers generally have with their babies is (to some extent) neurobiological (this is not to say that fathers cannot have a link or connection with their baby). Or like men generally have more testosterone than women and high testosterone levels linked to the display of aggressive behaviours. So the average man is probably more aggressive than the average woman. So there is a biological basis for SOME behaviours (even if it isnt consistent; like women can also be aggressive and ik women who are more aggressive than I am and [to me at least] that doesnt make me less of a man or them any less of a woman)
Outside of those, I feel like there are alot of behaviours nowadays deemed masculine or feminine on the dumbass basis that men are the opposite of women and vice versa. That they cant like the same things or engage in the same behaviours or thought processes. For instance, there are still people today who believe that men should not wash their face or if they pay attention to their clothes and hair then they are too feminine; when its just basic hygiene and taking care of yourself. Same thing with emotions. Women are seen as being emotional, and so men are taught to never let their emotions show. Or how its seen as manly to have sex with many women but women are bashed for doing the same thing. Its a whole ass mess in every single way.
(please read this entire first sentence because the first half of it will seem wild to you if you dont) Your last point is deadass how men are oppressed through the society they created themselves and through the patriarchy. Yes we benefit from it but the toxic parts of traditional masculinity also cripple us at the same time. But those who benefit from how things are tell young men that this is the way things **should** be. Like, women are generally able to be vulnerable with each other but men generally cant be because being vulnerable means youre weak and are less of a man. It may sound odd to you but tbh alot of the shit things about traditional masculinity that men experience is due to pressure put on them primarily by other men. Like they believe they have to do certain things and cant do other things because otherwise other men will look down on them and belittle them. WE LITERALLY GATEKEEP MASCULINITY FROM OURSELVES LMAO.
To me, being a man is being confident in who you are as a person and finding the mix of traditionally masculine and feminine behaviours that works for you and helps you to be a better person. Regardless of what other people may think about you.
Imo both have traits which are useful (i.e. as a man being able to understand what emotion youre feeling and understanding why you feel that way helps you to work through whatever issue youre having; or as a woman being hardworking and assertive [I really don't know why being hardworking and/or assertive is thought of as specifically a masculine trait]).
it absolutely exist. partly hormones and chromosome provide this distinction. genders have brain differences like more white matter or grey matter and interconnections. testosterone is a power hormone, there is a good documentary on youtube. men shut and keep grinding because they want to get to the top of hierarchy. men create the hierarchy even though it hurts them, if there is no hierarchy a man cant have it all and have no purpose . its like climbing up military rank. some men who are low in hierarchy suffer but still keep grinding and wont let go of hierarchy concept because its like gambling, pillage. one day they hope to get to the top.. men accept these awful conditions/treatment. i think cultural plays 50% and gender differences play 50%. gender differences create culture over time. but gender difference is still minute in grand scheme of things
@@bloodcarnage8285 That's the point, gender differences in temperament are very small. There might be some different abilities that our male and female bodies grant us, but in terms of other things we aren't that different.
exactly.
Aside from biology, yes they do they are internal energies we lean on whenever it is necessary. Women and be protectors and providers when it needs to be and men can be nurturing caring to their young when needed. They operate in whichever energy is needed at the time. It is when we operate in these energy that in one we feel at peace and whole with purpose, that is our strength to determine where we lean on masculine or feminine that has nothing to do with gender.
Psychologically, I believe that society cleaves the balance of good character in half. Acting manly vs acting womanly are stupid. Just act like a good person.
I wonder how much of "masculine" and "feminine" is actually baked into us biologically and psychologically. Men are, on the whole, bigger and stronger than women. That would naturally lend to them being more in the protector role. I've also heard a few times that the more egalitarian a society gets, there ends up being a notable difference in what professions men go for vs. what professions women go towards. So perhaps it's not just culture norms that haven't caught up to reality, but even our minds and bodies are still stuck in the ancient ways. And this would cause all kinds of friction.
True! It would be interesting to add these other layers to the analysis such as differences in personality traits or evolutionary psychology..
Even so, there are men who will always be physically weak due to various disabilities. We need to contend with whether or not physical weakness makes somebody 'less of a man,' and if so, what that says about 'being a man' in the first place.
I do think it's interesting to analyze whether a person has been able to solve problems with physical strength, and how much they've built their life toolkit around that, but there's no way to essentialize that for _every single member_ of that person's demographic.
@@Densoro But if you argue with the exceptions making rules or any type of definition is impossible. In general men are stronger than women. The stronger ought to protect the weaker. Therefore men should generally protect women.
@@joeabiro2049 We could stop at ‘the stronger ought to protect the weaker,’ while acknowledging that various people are strong in different subjects.
@@Densoro If you are making society you have to make generalisation. This is why men have to be drafted into war. If you want to make quick decisions you don't have time to vet out people individually. If you're country is attacked you can't let men just leave because they are "femboys" or whatever. You have to be strong as a man. You just have to be. Society forces you to be. And at some point the west and these weak men will have a cold awakening when China and the us will finally go to war in the next 10 years and all of these weak men will essentially die because they are incapable of fighting. Do you think that the government cares? Males biologically have much lower value than females. Because of the reproductive strategy of humans it's like bees essentially. You cannot ignore biology in these discussions because society and gender is heavily linked to sex. It's not just the "strong have to defend the weak" it's also the less valuable have to defend the more valuable too. Children are the future, and biologically females are more valuable than males. So it makes sense to sacrifice men in conflict.
Man I wish the last part of this video was its own video, because while I won't be able to get most people to sit through 30 minutes of masculinity discussion I sure as heck would love to get people to sit through 5 minutes of "This is why what-about-ism kills empathy and communication."
Women distancing themselves from traditional roles, while men are required to have certain tradional traits. smh
Exactly
That is not true. Even today women are expected to do the majority of household work and childcare work. Even the working moms are doing more household chores than Men. Women are also expected those traditional things even when they are the providers.
(March 5, 2024)
One cooking pot for the whole tribe/village6:55 7:34
Society is becoming more equal, but we expect men to still hold trad roles
8:29 10:00
Women in finance10:53
Figuring out what masculinity is on ur own
16:16 23:40
Dr K, can you please make a video on where and how to make friends as an adult that spend the majority of it's time gaming and has no sufficient social skills to get relations
Yes, please
1. Stop gaming
2. Go outside
Find a hobby, simple. Be it volounteer work, sport, or some geeky stuff or even something like a group trip (not with friends but with other people who paid for the same experience) obviously if you have busy work life try and find healthy balance so you aren't physically and mentally drained every day
@@ThePro499 hmm doesn't work like that ;)
@@Just_B0red I tried that, unfortunately it won't work
This man spits the realest shit on the internet
I've had a hunch that the most "masculine" men tend to be insecure - and I was right. Your breakdowns are so interesting, thanks for sharing and taking the time Dr K!
right based on what?
@@freerights6695 15:08
Exactly. Usually, the people who have to show off a trait of 'who they are' (specifically in unnatural circumstances where it isn't called for, because someone being performative charismatic/confident in a business setting is a scenario where it might be called for) aren't *actually* that. In a cultural climate that prioritizes outer expression, it's worth being aware that outer expression doesn't verify inner substance; Some of the most insecure people have the biggest superiority complexes.
@Brett M Why are you insisting that people are taking it as "gospel" in reality people just agree with what he says. Also if I had a nickel for every time I heard someone online something along the lines of "I am a historian therefore I understand the past better than anyone else" I would be too rich to spend my time online watching videos.
@@ysy_y This is what I meant without writing out everything I thought.
Toxic and healthy masculine and feminine traits are not limited to males or females. I'm tired of people being mad at men because those people decided to play the gender identity game and its not working out for them. Go out and be your own person. Gender stereotypes are so counter-productive. I'm a male because I am genetically male; you should not feel as though you know anything more about me without getting to know me personally.
How did we come to agree that gender is a social construct and then not only maintain those gender stereotypes but also create more of them.
"T-pose without fear" 😂
I've actually done that many times telling people to be strong, overtime I've adjusted it and added a line "your feelings are valid/matter, and it good thing to feel them."
Personal accountability.
Responsability
Honesty
Are a few ones that i think need to be in a men
I think personal needs to be in front of every word in your list but I agree
But they should be in a woman too. These aren't masculine traits. Just good human traits.
New to this channel and I must say I think I may like it here. Very diverse
Making my way through this video and I think I'll get a lot out of it, but I do want to put a slight disclaimer on the tribal thing; I've been taking an anthropology class and most of the resources I've seen imply that "tribal societies" as we think of them are and were generally pretty egalitarian, with men and women sharing labor roles. But it gets more nuanced than that and this is just the base to start from so I don't think it's wrong to frame it in that way for the purposes of this discussion.
The gender roles of today are a modern construct.
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:
If you can dream-and not make dreams your master;
If you can think-and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings-nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And-which is more-you’ll be a Man, my son!
-Rudyard Kipling
Thanks for the insight, dr K. As a gay man, I feel like we need to talk more about that, because it gets so confusing!
I don’t mean any disrespect but gay men will never be considered masculine in my book. I find that most of them tend to act too feminine.
@@ilikepancakes2368 my experience is different. I’ve met many gay and even feminine men that demonstrate strong masculine traits. It’s strange to describe, but to those who are friendly to them, these men would manually turn down their aggressive traits. But, if someone disrespected them or tried to hurt them, they would not just take it on the chin, they were fiery, angry and stood up for themselves.
I had a gay manager who was like this. He was so flamboyantly gay, but nobody dared to cross him.
@@bonkersdonkers7381 being angry does not mean you are masculine. He sounds insecure.
@@timothydao2416 no, just that feminine gay men will often defend themselves and display some type of masculine pride.
@@ilikepancakes2368 I'm sorry you think this. You should definitely meet more gay men, then. You will find out that not only are there many gay men who are very masculine, but also many straight men who are more feminine.
Don't generalize, ok?
"Positive" traits for masculinity are positive traits for everyone, including women, so assigning them to men lead to problems, especially when you're a man (or woman) the wrong personality type. A person who feel confident and adequate do not think about whether they are "masculine". They just are themselves and that is good. A desire to become or strive for "masculinity" or even "positive masculinity" is therefore an indicator of poor health. The more insecure the person, the more toxic the expressions tend to be. The idea of "masculinity" may in itself make you worry and feel insecure. What you need isn't healthy masculinity but feeling confident that you as a person is enough.
I’ve been saying for a while now that the gender roles we expect people to fill have not kept up with our society’s structure and how the labor market works now. There’s also an issue where women, while allowed to have a career and choose what they want, are STILL expected to be homemakers and prioritize family. One of the reasons women are more prone to staying single by choice and initiating divorces and why marriage makes them less happy than it does men is because of this. When women have to make money, but also have to do the majority of domestic work anyway, having a relationship where the man just makes money and doesn’t help as much with domestic duties is more of a drain on her. This leads to more single people, and of course many men desperate for a relationship not being able to find a woman since women are more picky and less desperate. If society aligns their expectations with how we are actually structured today, we would see individuals choosing roles that work for them, and not holding themselves or their partners to an archaic and useless standard based on their gender, and I think everyone would be happier this way.
i dusagree with this on the basis that majority if divorces are on the basis of finances not on this , the idea that its because they are more prone to do domestic work while having a career while its true , i think its a minority problem
My girlfriend summed it best, "I just really like a masculine and kind guy"
the ending to this video screams for a follow up video on judgmental thoughts (unless i missed a past video on it)
You have a very good point in the things you say, it would be inappropriate to add other stuff to add things to what you are saying, I think that's important to the discussion, stuff gets complicated when you talk about all the "what abouts" that pop up
I know that you’re trying to be impartial and not offend anyone and it’s everyone’s fault, but the rejection of women is by far a stronger motivator for men’s behavior than the judgment of other men. This is something that is rarely mentioned by anyone. I really dislike how we paint women as these powerless creatures underneath the patriarchy when in reality they hold tremendous power, and thus should bear some of the responsibility.
Very solid take. Only thing I would say is that when Dr K comes back at the comment blaming women, while he's right that it's both men and women that do the critiquing, I think for a lot of men the rejection by a women is felt more painfully than the ridicule of men, because he can more easily reject the men as being dicks, but if he wants a partner then women rejecting him hurts more.
It's still true that both men and women are responsible for the judgement, not doubt about it. But I think there is room in that statement to note that the female desire for a man with traditionally masculine traits had a greater impact on men than the male critiques.
i feel like almost all "good masculine traits" are just generally good traits a person could have, male or female. I think we dont need masculinity or feminity anymore, everyone should just strive to be a good human being.
edit: dr k even said the same thing at 23:33 lol
@@GE0attack why? A woman can be confident, independent, dedicated, a leader, whatever tou can think of
@@GE0attack you need to stop being so emotional towards anyone who disagrees with you.
@@Dimitris_Half So if a woman was a good reliable person, what exactly does masculinity have to do with anything? Yall jist throwing the word masculinity in there for no reason
@@makkerfelix I can give my answer since I agree with him. The issue is that our bodies shape how our minds think just as much (if not significantly more) as the other way around. Merely pretending that we can discard inherent biological traits and their effect on cognitive function is pure absurdism. You may as well be saying we should strive to have nothing but sunny days, as if rain is unimportant.
@@Dimitris_Half Where could you possibly infer that from? It's not completely wrong but I'll get into that later. What I'm saying is that the so-called "dumb physical" body that people like to pretend is just a vehicle for our consciousness is far more complicated than we give it credit for and shapes the way that we think far more than people are probably comfortable knowing. If we use computer language, our direct conscious attention is comparable to a single active core whereas our brain has an estimated 1e15 cores or 1 quadrillion.
Being born male or female is a direct and incredibly powerful modifier on how our brains develop and function. This whole idea that everything is just socially constructed and arbitrary is complete nonsense, and I have a dearth of neurobiological, anthropological, genetic, and nutritional data that backs me up. The other side has philosophical and religious intuitions that just mandate that such a thing must be despite all the evidence otherwise.
Unlike what all the inspirational videos like to say, the truth is not at all that anyone can do anything, but that there is a potential for greatness to come from unexpected places. To get back to your example, short/small people are significantly more prone to anxiety, violent behavior, and paranoia. This means that a short person is generally not going to make a good leader or have much confidence, though they might be more independent based on other factors. This increases again significantly for women compared to men. None of this means that an anomaly can't happen, but just pretending that everyone has the potential to do or be anything is pure hogwash. The idea we can remove masculinity and femininity is a pipe dream at best.
I think the important part about independence is not actually *being* independent, but having the ability to be independent when necessary. If you make enough money to hire a chef and a cleaner there is no reason not to, but you still should know how to make food and clean your place.
I'm nonbinary and feel pushed to be both masculine and feminine, glad you also talked about us ❤️
For me it always was like this: manifestations for Healthy Masculinity - Knight, Lord, King, Priest / and Toxic Masculinity - Warrior, Mercenary, Burglar
finally,a good person is a good person,someone healthy the same. im tirde of people basing everything around meaty bits
exactly, i dont think we need masculinity or femininity anymore, just bad person and good person
Those meaty bits are pretty damn important and influence whatever idea of this ghost or soul or ego which is supposedly operating the machine. I'm pretty confident that we are our bodies and not some puppeteer behind the scene based off everything we know from neurobiology.
You speaking the things out im always thinking about, i think im on the right path..
YESSSSS, I love how you called out how so many of those redpillers being insecure. XD I've known it's a fantasy for several years. They are so *insecure* that they can't make a 6 figure salary and be this really "successful" person, they think they're a better man by going and acting all tough.
Sure but that's the start of analysis of their situation, not a conclusion.
Yeah they try to cope with something and that comes from an expectation that women and men put on them.
Damn, it's almost like we should stop expecting men to have six figure salaries by the age of 25 then
Yeahhhh such a great thing when he calls out people who struggle with the exact issue he's describing in this video!!!!!!!
Such a disappointing lack of empathy from your part, he literally said this isn't about men vs women. He also explicitly said the income expectation for men is nearing unachievable status for the average male due to inflation, hence people feeling insecure about it. It's never a good thing to make fun of people's insecurites, because most people would choose to abandon those in a second.
Your comment is the exact example of a toxic comment, good job.
Doc doubt you’ll see this but another part of masculinity besides responsibility and independence is getting your needs met