Have seen this happen, even in work shops, the locking tool was originally intended to facilitate installation of the pump, as soon as the pump is fastened to the block you are supposed to remove the lock and verify the timing with an A/B light. When this type of error occurs you can still "drip time" the pump but you can no longer rely on the locking tool or the A/B light for accurate R&R.
You are absolutely right when you say "stupid". Why would anyone attempt this, on their own, without finding instructions from Mercedes or something else? Wis implicitly state not to rotate the engine with the pin installed in the pump. Love your videos. They keep our old cars alive. Thank you.
Good video, explains everything well. Mechanical sympathy is always needed when doing jobs, and knowing when you can swing on a pry bay or not is everything.
Guy's like luke are becoming a rare breed these day's, mechanics are lost and don't know what to do if they haven't got a comp to tell them what's wrong
Your very generous to your customers, and you clearly know how to run a business successfully. Very informative video. I guess don’t buy cheap tools from eBay to use on a pump that’s probably worth thousands.
if your rough enough and stupid enough he says... people dont like it when you say that because its true, we all get tired fatigued and just want to get something done... great video Luke the OM606 lord
call me impressed. the quality of your videos and your explanations are top-notch . I'm not in the market for any diesel engine upgrades or even a diesel engine in my life at the current time but something tells me when I do plan to do something like that? I'm pretty sure I know what parts to buy from now on and from what company. this is how business is used to be ran in America until one day all the American manufacturing basically went overseas.. it really is nice that you guys in the UK and in Europe have folks that still do this right there at home. over here in the US if something is broken it's like a state secret on how to fix it. where to find a problem that you're having with a part.
Maybe add a note to the paperwork you send out stating not to leave it in.Make it catchy.. "Don't be a fool and leave in your tool"..."Don't be a tool and leave in you fool".....or something like that 😉 😜
Use the locking took as a guide. I always use my phone with the camera on so I can see the pointer in the center before I put the tool in, if I don't have the pump out. If I have the pump out I put locking pin in first. Some people have no common sence
I was too impatient to order a locking tool. I used a short piece of rubber hose with a slit in the end and the cap to put pressure on it, worked like a charm... better than the bit of shop towel we used the first 10 times pulling the pump in and out trying to get it right.
Ive machined alot of tapers on center lathes, horizontal borers etc.. We would ordinarily use a fine valve lapping paste to 'Seat@ the taper of a shaft to the taper of a coupling prior to installation to increase the surface contact between the too mating surfaces. be interesting to see if the same test after lapping the 2 provides the same results in this scenario
Have you worked on anything with the Toyota 1hz motor? Would love to see what you think of them and what you could do to help them make power. They're very, very common here in Australia and there's a heap around the world that could use a boost in numbers!
I only watched this video because it was recommended to me, but am I being a bit thick? If you are trying to time one thing (the pump) to the engine, would you not lock the pump, put the engine where it needs to be and then attach the drive from the engine to the pump? If you turn the engine with the pump driven by it, you can't change the timing.
So I have a question not about the timing but about the test bench, where do you get a chuck for those m pumps to put them on a bench? I'm from the US and I haven't seen many pumps with a shaft like that so I don't even know where to look
In your previous “how to” video for installing the pumps you tightened the pump gear bolt with the locking tool in, I just installed my 8.5 pump yesterday and followed that video and tightened it with the newer style locking tool in. Now you have me worried I threw off the timing
I have a w124 which ran sweet as a nut before the pump was changed and has subsequently been flat as a pancake with way less power. I'm concerned it was initially mistimed, this has damaged the engine and thus now can't be fixed. What damage does a mistimed pump do to an engine ? and how long does it need to be run for to do that damage ? Thanks for your help
I can't believe this. This happened some 12,13 years when i worked at a friends garage. We were putting a "new" engine in a customers car. But the motor came without the pump and all the other stuff on it. And we did the same thing. We were twisting the crank left and right a bit and the pump had that kind of pin in it. We never managed to get it working. We got a different pump few days later and the car ran flawless. I think that pump we twisted is still in his garage. I'll link him this video so he can alos have a laugh how stupid we were.
Why not put the key way in to prevent this issue. Sounds like it needs to be locked if that's what causing issues. Seems fixable with putting in a key way. High rpm would probably slip it anyways. Spot weld it if its known to fly off.
@@DieselPumpUK , could you please explain the function of the keyway in the pump , why or why not use it to solve this particular problem . Appreciate your videos , keep up with the good work .
Thanks to Luke for fixing my pump. Glad he went to the measures of paying for shipping and fixing damaged parts from shipping. Although I do want to say I did not use a metal locking tool. I made one out of soft wood, it worked great and got the timing marker in the center of the hole. I never turned over the engine with anything on the pointer. I’ve used it multiple times on running cars. So not sure what happened to this pump, just hoping my engine isn’t ruined, ran it for a while like this out of time. Does anyone have any info on running a 606 10-15 degrees advanced out of time for a long duration? Any damage to the bottom end or anything? Thanks!
So the man makes a video to help you and replaces broken parts due to poor carriage and you both slate him. Wow. You just can’t do enough for some people.
@@wouldntyouliketoknow522 I’m not meaning anything against him, just saying my part, yes the video helped a lot and yes I said I’m very thankful for fixing everything.
I’ve done everything you can possibly do wrong and was convinced half a dozen time that my engine was no good to begin with. I’ve cranked and cranked and cranked 180° out, ran it 11° BTDC for a week, ran it 17° ATDC, I’ve jammed the gear on the splines and torqued the center bolt, I’ve got the mark on the crank pulley right where I wanted it then broke loose the pump center bolt which took the slack off the chain…. that makes for a 12° retard…. Ive created enough smoke to hit the upper atmosphere with a diesel mushroom cloud… my neighbors hate me…. I’ve embarrassed my wife… but I’ve got it dialed in and running amazing. I’ve also driven Luke crazy throughout the chaos.
These engines are very durable and can tolerate a lot of abuse, I would just get the pump properly installed, make sure it is starting and running smoothly,, then change the oil and filter. When you remove the oil filter you can let it drain into a clean container then examine the filter media for any excessive material.
What are some good forums to post general diesel questions in? By general I mean not related to any specific make or manufacturer. My diesel engine is a Mazda RF which there aren't any good forums for afaik.
Maybe start cutting them to use the keyway. I always found it odd that some pumps rely on just the taper. Cummins p pumps are the same. Like others have said maybe its for a reason to allow slippage in some kind of catastrophic event.
@@chickenfishhybrid44 lol OMG. Nvm I'm not getting into this shit it's not hard to figure out. It was just an idea anyways but they do have keyways that break under a certain load.
@@ebutuoyebutouy what 2.0 Honda isn't keyed? If it has a belt i assume it's an older engine, can't say I recall seeing that on any honda. It certainly isn't the case on D and B series. The main 2.0L Hondas I've worked on are K and they're chain. I wasn't saying it doesn't exist, it's just not very common in my experience as a tech of 10 years. Thinking about it, only thing I can recall that I've personally touched would be a VW 1.9 TDI.
@@chickenfishhybrid44 Don't want to start an argument else I will delete. On my 1988 Accord the end of the cam had a flat spot. U were supposed to use that to lock the cam in place w engine at TDC. Then attach the belt and slide the pulley onto the taper loosely. Then tension the belt which also drove the water pump I think. Then torque the nut to tighten the pulley. Puts the cam timing perfectly in place. I don't know what early Subaru w a belt had but my buddy advanced the cam for more low end torque. He liked the outcome.
@@ebutuoyebutouy I'm not trying to argue either. Simply was curious what 2.0 L Honda engine you were talking about since everyone I can remember working on was keyed. Don't think I've ever done a timing belt on an Accord that old so I wouldn't know. I guess thats an A series engine? Doesn't seem to be commonly modded or swapped like D, B, H, F and K series engines which is what I have the most experience with working on Honda wise.
"And this is why people don't like me" HaHa, yep I hear you Luke, fragile ego's abound! Curious that Bosch would design the tapered shaft with a key way and yet not instal a key on such a critical component? Regards from Down under. Cheers Glenn.
@@glennstocker487 I once worked on a 1.6 TD where someone saw the keyway, and then shoved a key into it... deforming the cam pulley. Part of the timing belt procedure has you set, but not tighten the cam pulley. The cam is locked with a tool on the other end, as you tighten the belt the cam pulley will move very slightly. Once the belt is tight you lock the cam pulley in place.
who in their right mind will lock a pump by turniong the crank ???? u put it 15 degrees after tdc and put the damn locking tool in when instaling u lock the pump prior to instal what kind of idiots are starting to work on machines
Luke isn't just a mechanic, he is a professor of diesel engines! A very smart dude for sure.
Have seen this happen, even in work shops, the locking tool was originally intended to facilitate installation of the pump, as soon as the pump is fastened to the block you are supposed to remove the lock and verify the timing with an A/B light. When this type of error occurs you can still "drip time" the pump but you can no longer rely on the locking tool or the A/B light for accurate R&R.
You are absolutely right when you say "stupid". Why would anyone attempt this, on their own, without finding instructions from Mercedes or something else? Wis implicitly state not to rotate the engine with the pin installed in the pump. Love your videos. They keep our old cars alive. Thank you.
The lack of keyway might be a safety mechanism to stop the camshaft from being destroyed if the governor comes apart and jams .
6:52 "...this is why people don't like me"
That's the exact moment when I liked you and hit the "like" button =))))
Good video, explains everything well. Mechanical sympathy is always needed when doing jobs, and knowing when you can swing on a pry bay or not is everything.
Guy's like luke are becoming a rare breed these day's, mechanics are lost and don't know what to do if they haven't got a comp to tell them what's wrong
100% all new mechanics do is change parts
Your very generous to your customers, and you clearly know how to run a business successfully. Very informative video. I guess don’t buy cheap tools from eBay to use on a pump that’s probably worth thousands.
Great informative piece! I wonder if the owner of that pump has come here and thanked Luke for correcting "users" mistakes.
reALLY TOP FROM THE TOP QUALITY! Thanks You.. for movies like this
Absolutely speak your mind!!👍
I repair heavy plant and deal with the same type of people every day!
Great video.....👍
Quality demonstration ad explanation
This guy lives and breathes these pumps, world class knowledge
if your rough enough and stupid enough he says... people dont like it when you say that because its true, we all get tired fatigued and just want to get something done... great video Luke the OM606 lord
call me impressed. the quality of your videos and your explanations are top-notch . I'm not in the market for any diesel engine upgrades or even a diesel engine in my life at the current time but something tells me when I do plan to do something like that? I'm pretty sure I know what parts to buy from now on and from what company.
this is how business is used to be ran in America until one day all the American manufacturing basically went overseas.. it really is nice that you guys in the UK and in Europe have folks that still do this right there at home.
over here in the US if something is broken it's like a state secret on how to fix it. where to find a problem that you're having with a part.
Maybe add a note to the paperwork you send out stating not to leave it in.Make it catchy.. "Don't be a fool and leave in your tool"..."Don't be a tool and leave in you fool".....or something like that 😉 😜
thank you for the information does the pump from the om617 have the same issue? I wonder why they don't use the locking key?
617 has a keyway to stop this from happening.
Use the locking took as a guide. I always use my phone with the camera on so I can see the pointer in the center before I put the tool in, if I don't have the pump out. If I have the pump out I put locking pin in first. Some people have no common sence
I was too impatient to order a locking tool. I used a short piece of rubber hose with a slit in the end and the cap to put pressure on it, worked like a charm... better than the bit of shop towel we used the first 10 times pulling the pump in and out trying to get it right.
Thanks for sharing. I'm to cheap to buy the locking tool. Lol. Don't worry, I do have the splined sockets for the delivery valves and chamber.
Have you done a video on a NA to Turbo OM606 conversion?
Ive machined alot of tapers on center lathes, horizontal borers etc..
We would ordinarily use a fine valve lapping paste to 'Seat@ the taper of a shaft to the taper of a coupling prior to installation to increase the surface contact between the too mating surfaces.
be interesting to see if the same test after lapping the 2 provides the same results in this scenario
Genius.....! Great explanation seems ligical.
Forgot and Left lock in, and cranked it? Just a guess,
From a 606 owner btw…
I reckon your spot on
Lol I bet he did
Have you worked on anything with the Toyota 1hz motor?
Would love to see what you think of them and what you could do to help them make power.
They're very, very common here in Australia and there's a heap around the world that could use a boost in numbers!
No doubt, Mr. Diesel
I only watched this video because it was recommended to me, but am I being a bit thick? If you are trying to time one thing (the pump) to the engine, would you not lock the pump, put the engine where it needs to be and then attach the drive from the engine to the pump? If you turn the engine with the pump driven by it, you can't change the timing.
So I have a question not about the timing but about the test bench, where do you get a chuck for those m pumps to put them on a bench? I'm from the US and I haven't seen many pumps with a shaft like that so I don't even know where to look
In your previous “how to” video for installing the pumps you tightened the pump gear bolt with the locking tool in, I just installed my 8.5 pump yesterday and followed that video and tightened it with the newer style locking tool in. Now you have me worried I threw off the timing
This guy knows his pumps.
Can you anyhow ensure at home if you did mess the pin placement? I may have :D
Luke, hv a old '94 350 diesel g truck. Can engine performance be improved with one of your pumps.
Engine om 603 D 35a
Thank you
Thank you for the info Luke
I have a w124 which ran sweet as a nut before the pump was changed and has subsequently been flat as a pancake with way less power. I'm concerned it was initially mistimed, this has damaged the engine and thus now can't be fixed. What damage does a mistimed pump do to an engine ? and how long does it need to be run for to do that damage ?
Thanks for your help
I can't believe this. This happened some 12,13 years when i worked at a friends garage. We were putting a "new" engine in a customers car. But the motor came without the pump and all the other stuff on it. And we did the same thing. We were twisting the crank left and right a bit and the pump had that kind of pin in it. We never managed to get it working. We got a different pump few days later and the car ran flawless. I think that pump we twisted is still in his garage. I'll link him this video so he can alos have a laugh how stupid we were.
22 degrees before TDC. Is thi the same degree for om 605? Thank you.
Why not put the key way in to prevent this issue. Sounds like it needs to be locked if that's what causing issues. Seems fixable with putting in a key way. High rpm would probably slip it anyways. Spot weld it if its known to fly off.
Hi. Good and interesting video
could you 3d print a locking key something that would sheer off before something breaks?
Simply gawk inside the hole and first find the slot. So easy.
Hi... I have pumb of Nissan patrol 3300 turbo sd33td
Do have idea how much can be a nice Repared by you, Im from Portugal
It's another case of RTFM,,,, read the f@^ing manual.
Excellent video. Hope you're training many apprentices 👍
That’s why most of them locking pins on P pumps are plastic so they just snap the tang off none of them should be metal
So why can you not just spill time it on the engine like the other inline pumps?
Could you not use keyway to stop slip or would that create bigger issues if rotating engine by long bar?
keyway could cause damage to the shaft if the govner slips so rather the govner slip than destroy the pump shaft
If the governor slips too much it will tear the shaft up anyway
If there's a key way on the shaft, can a key not be used to stop this happening?
Then your gonna break something else. Something has to give.
Exelent video !
In summary it's a "Detail". A detail which is critical. Without a proper tools people should not touch these things :)
Will you improve the quality and fit-mend in the future?
Although the quality and is already very high I’m certain we will keep improving.
@@DieselPumpUK , could you please explain the function of the keyway in the pump , why or why not use it to solve this particular problem . Appreciate your videos , keep up with the good work .
Doing an awsome job..
Do late om603 pumps (i.e. 1991) have keyways?
Thanks to Luke for fixing my pump. Glad he went to the measures of paying for shipping and fixing damaged parts from shipping. Although I do want to say I did not use a metal locking tool. I made one out of soft wood, it worked great and got the timing marker in the center of the hole. I never turned over the engine with anything on the pointer. I’ve used it multiple times on running cars. So not sure what happened to this pump, just hoping my engine isn’t ruined, ran it for a while like this out of time. Does anyone have any info on running a 606 10-15 degrees advanced out of time for a long duration? Any damage to the bottom end or anything?
Thanks!
It really did feel like he was trying to make up an excuse for your pump!
So the man makes a video to help you and replaces broken parts due to poor carriage and you both slate him. Wow. You just can’t do enough for some people.
@@wouldntyouliketoknow522 I’m not meaning anything against him, just saying my part, yes the video helped a lot and yes I said I’m very thankful for fixing everything.
I’ve done everything you can possibly do wrong and was convinced half a dozen time that my engine was no good to begin with. I’ve cranked and cranked and cranked 180° out, ran it 11° BTDC for a week, ran it 17° ATDC, I’ve jammed the gear on the splines and torqued the center bolt, I’ve got the mark on the crank pulley right where I wanted it then broke loose the pump center bolt which took the slack off the chain…. that makes for a 12° retard…. Ive created enough smoke to hit the upper atmosphere with a diesel mushroom cloud… my neighbors hate me…. I’ve embarrassed my wife… but I’ve got it dialed in and running amazing. I’ve also driven Luke crazy throughout the chaos.
These engines are very durable and can tolerate a lot of abuse, I would just get the pump properly installed, make sure it is starting and running smoothly,, then change the oil and filter. When you remove the oil filter you can let it drain into a clean container then examine the filter media for any excessive material.
What are some good forums to post general diesel questions in? By general I mean not related to any specific make or manufacturer. My diesel engine is a Mazda RF which there aren't any good forums for afaik.
Denso edc rotary pump
Great content, thanks!
good info
Maybe start cutting them to use the keyway. I always found it odd that some pumps rely on just the taper. Cummins p pumps are the same. Like others have said maybe its for a reason to allow slippage in some kind of catastrophic event.
Well yeah lol it's for a catastrophic failure. A rated keyway might work
@@ronniewilliz153 you're saying the lack of keyway is for a catastrophic failure? What do you mean rated?
@@chickenfishhybrid44 it breaks so it'll stop feeding it fuel.
@@ronniewilliz153 breaks so it stops feeding fuel when? Under what conditions?
@@chickenfishhybrid44 lol OMG. Nvm I'm not getting into this shit it's not hard to figure out. It was just an idea anyways but they do have keyways that break under a certain load.
Great to see.
great vid !!!
All good stuff
Gud vid
Getting a similar issue on engines that break timing belts, The cam rotates inside the timing gear making the timing marks on the gears useless.
Every cam gear i can personally recall has been keyed.
@@chickenfishhybrid44 Neither my 2.0l Honda nor my GF's 2.3l Volvo was keyed. Both use timing belts.
@@ebutuoyebutouy what 2.0 Honda isn't keyed? If it has a belt i assume it's an older engine, can't say I recall seeing that on any honda. It certainly isn't the case on D and B series. The main 2.0L Hondas I've worked on are K and they're chain.
I wasn't saying it doesn't exist, it's just not very common in my experience as a tech of 10 years. Thinking about it, only thing I can recall
that I've personally touched would be a VW 1.9 TDI.
@@chickenfishhybrid44 Don't want to start an argument else I will delete. On my 1988 Accord the end of the cam had a flat spot. U were supposed to use that to lock the cam in place w engine at TDC. Then attach the belt and slide the pulley onto the taper loosely. Then tension the belt which also drove the water pump I think. Then torque the nut to tighten the pulley. Puts the cam timing perfectly in place. I don't know what early Subaru w a belt had but my buddy advanced the cam for more low end torque. He liked the outcome.
@@ebutuoyebutouy I'm not trying to argue either. Simply was curious what 2.0 L Honda engine you were talking about since everyone I can remember working on was keyed. Don't think I've ever done a timing belt on an Accord that old so I wouldn't know. I guess thats an A series engine? Doesn't seem to be commonly modded or swapped like D, B, H, F and K series engines which is what I have the most experience with working on Honda wise.
Would a woodruff key fix this???
Then u going to damage the casing. Just put the tool into the slot by first visually inspecting w a mirror.
some things were made not for backyard mechanic to fool around with
Not your problem people are fruit cakes. Suppose he has knowledge now 🤣
"And this is why people don't like me" HaHa, yep I hear you Luke, fragile ego's abound!
Curious that Bosch would design the tapered shaft with a key way and yet not instal a key on such a critical component?
Regards from Down under.
Cheers Glenn.
VW Diesels use the same design on the main engine camshaft!
@@compu85 Interesting?
Variable timing or adjustment would be my guess
@@glennstocker487 I once worked on a 1.6 TD where someone saw the keyway, and then shoved a key into it... deforming the cam pulley.
Part of the timing belt procedure has you set, but not tighten the cam pulley. The cam is locked with a tool on the other end, as you tighten the belt the cam pulley will move very slightly. Once the belt is tight you lock the cam pulley in place.
@@compu85 Yes interesting.
Moral of the story is...buy a toyota! Keep it old school!
👍
🤣 This is why people don't like me 🙄
Hi Luke I’ve e-mailed you awaiting a reply
Wow! Dude is this a video for gorillas so as to avoid throwing out timing by not "overtightening fittings?...Send me some bananas bro, Uuga' uuga'....
i avoided this big mistake and saved my engine, i bought a petrol car :)
Fu*k what everyone else says you know how to run a business I will be buying my pump in the future from you
vae.fyi
cool
who in their right mind will lock a pump by turniong the crank ???? u put it 15 degrees after tdc and put the damn locking tool in when instaling u lock the pump prior to instal what kind of idiots are starting to work on machines
Exactly