Thanks for doing these for us, AP. your contribution to the Malazan community has been unbelievable. Your channel is a goldmine and probably my favorite on TH-cam
Tavore is my favourite fictional character. I want to reassure Steve that the speech is well loved, at least by me. Tavore tells the Bonehunters that they will be unwitnessed. The speech demonstrates that not only does she see them but she knows them and understands them. It’s a great speech and it reduces me to tears every time I read it. I’ve never had a tattoo but if I ever do it will read, “ Bonehunters. Yield only in death on this day.”
I really appreciate Steven Erikson pointing out the "elephant in the room" as it were. I was thinking about it when AP and Steven were discussing differences and I'm glad it was actually brought up.
I think it is a factor, potentially a very significant one, but it can be a difficult one to broach in the current climate because so many people react negatively or aggressively to finding out that there is a potential cultural bias in how we read and perceive the world around us.
This was a great discussion. Some things I had not thought much about... time for another re-read. Steven is just such an intellectual. You did great to understand and present the concepts and guide the discussion.
I like the birds, they're a nice addition to the video 😍 Also: nice hat, Steve 😊 Tavore's speech is a great moment. She is such an enigmatic character for a first read of the series (and without having had access to any of these amazing and helpful conversations at that time), and that speech touched my heart... I couldn't help but love her. Thank you for the great conversation, see you in the next one :)
I will have to try to arrange for more birds in the future. They are certainly a charming addition. Always great to hear from you. I hope that you have a fantastic week.
I gained so much more appreciation for Tavore on a reread. Absolutely one of my favorite characters of the series, she breaks my heart in so many ways😭
One of the great things about a re-read is that it opens your eyes to so many things you missed or ignored the first time through. This is true for so many books and series. I am glad that you enjoyed the series.
I love how these conversations are 75% AP raving about all the themes, concepts and details and Erikson just nodding sagely and affirming. 🤣 Love your thoughts though!
Great chat. That bit about Tavore studying campaigns as a child always stuck with me. But yeah, it took me a while to realise we were witnessing an army and a leader built for legend... Always bittersweet that they'd go unrecognised.
Thank you AP and Steve!! These chats are always so fun and interesting This was definitely a comparison I hadn’t considered, and the parallels are pretty amazing. Really appreciated the breakdown of the details, especially the patriarchal stuff And honestly the thing that really got me was Steve’s Fiddler/Blistig comparison. Now THAT is something. And I think Fiddler actually had more internal doubts than Steve remembers (which is fine, not saying he obscured on purpose) - BUT Steve’s overall point is still absolutely salient. And that is - Fiddler doubts INTERNALLY, but his actions show he trusts Tavore. Blistig externalizes his doubt, and that makes all the difference Anyway thanks again!!
Churchill: fight... on the beaches! Tavore: And I shall stand with you, my beloved soldiers. Say nothing. We are walls of silence, you and me. We are perfect reflections of the one we face, and we have faced each other for so long now. And the meaning of that silence is none of the enemy's business. Sorry AP, Tavore wins there 😛
Tavore is the GOAT 🙌🐐 And her speech at the end of The Crippled God is one of my favorite scenes :) I don’t know if I noticed the parallel with Coltaine, but the parallel between the march through the Glass Desert and the Chain of Dogs rang resoundingly true for me. I’ve never felt like a sports fan until there’s a Tavore hater and I start chanting “Scoooreboard, scoooreboard” 😂
Tavore's speech is one of my favorite moments in Book of the Fallen, and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who likes it and her a as character. I doubted her in House of Chains but by the end of Bonehunters I was right on her side. What I find fascinating lately is the parallel between her and Hellian. Tavore is a military genius who always makes the right choice. Hellian is a drunken, chaotic and never thinks about what she's about to do... but also keeps making the right choice (tactically).
How many hours do you spend thinking up these topics? ha! Great video and insight into how these novels fit together and how one can continually glean new information out of them no matter how many times they are read (even though it was right there in front of us the whole time). Tavore is one of the greatest literary characters out there and deserves all the recognition she can get. Thanks AP!
Erikson and I chat relatively regularly, and sometimes something one of us says spurs a discussion that we think might be of interest to other people. This happened to be one of those things.
so thankful for these videos, especially getting as much content on tavore as possible (my second favourite fictional character ever). finding it awkward to structure this comment because i don’t want to come across as ungrateful for the content we get but id be beyond fascinated in hearing your/Erikson’s opinions on anything that further concerns her character. the similarities in presentation between her and anomander, whether the comment about her acting 'noble' (TCG) was an intentional decision exploring the ‘benefits’ of acting in a manner that aligns with your nature and how that would tie into the larger narrative of her as the 'Adjunct' - honestly id be overjoyed by any type of in depth discussion about her retaining her title throughout i just think it has so many interesting/impressive philosophical, ethical and narrative implications. apologies if this came across badly, love the work you do for us. also if steven you happen to see this comment, just know Tavore’s speech is held in extremely high regard - at least in my little corner of the internet
@@ACriticalDragon It is an interesting concept that initially she was the Adjunct for Laseen. Then when they broke with the Empire, the title might have seen as no longer applicable but in one sense she was still an Adjunct for the greater mission - and to whom is a debate that will never end.
Great video. My impression reading the series was that Tavore was often underestimated, despite her achievement, mainly for her lack of comunication... until her speech. Sorry if is off-topic, but I've recently finished "Rejoice" and it was great, I relly hope Mr. Erikson will write more books in that setting. Thank you
@@ACriticalDragon Yuo are wrigth, I didn't saw the parallel, sorry, maybe because for Coltaine the relationship between General and army is already established and for Tavore is in development, but probably I also made the mistake to underestimate her. Certainly I need to re-read the series after seven years. Thank you again.
Just finished reading The Crippled God…it’s bittersweet that the series is complete but this discussion with SE was perfect. One on of the most mysterious and well written characters for me is Tavore but I’ve wondered when she takes out the talon necklace.. does that reveal something? Or is it just me to think that maybe she was a talon or better she’s the daughter of Cotillion! AP, I’m hoping you can provide some clarity! Thank you!
Ganoes Paran fairly clearly praises his sister's abilities early on in the series. His and his sister's account is the most accurate and reliable as he is in a position to convey an understanding of her abilities reliably. Further, the recounting of Tavore's countless battles with toy soldiers cements her strategic and tactical mind.: "Tavore had claimed her brother's bone and antler toy soldiers, and in the rubble of the torn-up estate wall, where repairs had been undertaken by the grounds workers, she had arranged a miniature battle. Only later would Felisin learn that her nine-year-old sister had been, in fact, recreating a set battle, culled from historical accounts of a century-old clash between a Royal Untan army and the rebelling House of K'azz D'Avore. A battle that had seen the annihilation of the renegade noble family's forces and the subjugation of the D'Avore household. And that, taking on the role of Duke Kenussen D'Avore, she was working through every possible sequence of tactics toward achieving a victory. Trapped by a series of unfortunate circumstances in a steep-sided valley, and hopelessly outnumbered, the unanimous consensus among military scholars was that such victory was impossible." That scene and additional scenes from that chapter 18 of House o Chains were enough to give me faith in Tavore's abilities as a military leader. I don't recall having the built-up doubt about her potential. Additionally, she is described as cold iron. which to my mind means rational, calculating, deliberate, and methodical While we might be in the position of the grunts for much of the series with their doubts and concerns we also had access to Paran, Felisin, and L'oric. Attentive readers should have great faith in her abilities.
I'd say the speech that Tavore gives, while not being particularly inspiring, is perfect for the place that it is in. Gives insight into Tavore as a character, gives the troops what they need to hear (though very much not what they want to hear), and is a rare case of a leader actually being perfectly honest with their subordinates. The causes she advocates for are for the most part noble, she genuinely cares about those serving her, and she is willing to bear the responsibility of failure. Sounds like a leader I'd follow as well. I'd also add to this that Tavore's plain appearance is doing her no favours, I know that I am biased in favour of good looks and against those who are plainer even when they are just described to me, an unfortunate but very real part of human nature.
There are so many different types of leaders and approaches to leadership, and yet there are certain stereotypes/archetypes that regularly get used in Fantasy that we forget or are unused to the others.
Hey A.P hope u are well! I know u probably get this a lot so I apologize if you’ve answered this a ton of time and I also don’t want u to feel rushed but any idea when your and Phillips crippled god videos will be coming ? I’m so excited but just take ur time and tackle them when u feel ready, have a good day :)
CG Spoiler / question! Tavore, army, glass desert. Why did she wait so long for the ritual? If she knew they were in a bay could she not have flooded it, eventually it would have made its way up to them. Did she suspect the Snake was in there and didn't want to kill children yet still waited after all the water was done and Snake with them? Wasn't magic equally dead there as it was at the beginning? That march and the terrible circumstances knowing the resolution strikes me as add. House of Chains Tavore knew her army at that point so hardly a need to 'break' them and push them. I guess they wouldn't have had ships to float the basin that far inland to sail the glass desert? My favorite example for trust is Lostara. Through the entire march, through nearly being killed, starved, she held onto that tiny little secret much like that tiny little box of compassion that they saw reflected in Tavore from that whole Barghast description of leadership.
Have you ever played a computer game that has once use items? What if you use it too early? Tavares can't die and reload. She waits until what she considers is the last possible moment because she isn't omniscient and doesn't know how many chapters are left in the story. Secondly, it is not as if it came with detailed instructions that outlined exactly how much water would be created,so she had to find terrain that would work to try and contain and capture what was released. Lastly, elder magic powered by blood is different to the Warren's. This was demonstrated by Nil and Nether in Deadhouse Gates. So from a character point of view, without the benefit of the extra knowledge that a reader has, I think her decision makes perfect sense.
Alright so that explanation is on some forums as well which I could ahve been sarifyied with. Ha! My issue with this explanation is Tavore knew Bugg is an elder god and well it seems hard to believe that she wouldn't have known Bugg was Mael if she had determined what he was. So it seems that it was going to be something that had to do with water. Not that I remembered her having this dagger until she used it, but in hindsight I guess. Ha! Knowing the stakes and how the convergence was affecting the land to see something small come from an elder god at this location and this point in time didn't seem the expectation. As for the blood sacrifice I have nothing to argue there if you don't know the cost holding out makes sense as far as Tavore was and had been willing to give herself for them and for the future. Be curious if she had died if the army would have advanced. That reasoning though is far better than that suffering of the entire army to bring them to the Fallen one was needed. Thank you so much for the response once again!
Somehow I saw the lack of hand-holding as a positive. I have to admit I would not have appreciated Tavore as much if it weren't for the community hinting at it.
Tavore on a re-read when you have the bigger picture is so great. *!&@ SPOILERS !@&$ She was a talon with the loyalties and end-game goals that entails the ENTIRE time. Also, her unwittnessed speech is amazing!
I always likened Coltaine to Tavore and to Anomander, in that order, with the burden and the success of their mission growing from one to the next. But as far as Tavore goes, I think it would be fair to say that there are two distinct truths about her: one that she is a brilliant strategist and leader; the other that the Malazans are the ones who got her out of tight spots irrespective of her strategic genius. For example, she had no foreknowledge of Beak, she couldn't have possibly planned for that. And if Beak hadn't been there, there would have been not only no victory, but no army to talk about. And she couldn't have planned for the ghosts in Raraku either. Had she attacked with her untrained army, she may not have come out that well. Her greatest gamble is counting on the veterans to pull together and get through the day. Her trust in them is directly proportional with their lack of trust in her. And yet she gambles everything on that her veterans will find a way out of anything if squeezed hard enough. That's not to take away from her talent as a strategist, on the contrary: having the faith to take this risk is part of her genius as a leader. Where Coltaine controlled every battled and had an anticipated response to every possible move, and his people knew in advance what he wanted them to do, Tavore plays her campaigns quite differently. Her strategy, especially in Lether, is to let her people do what they do best while she guides them in silence. However, that does not take away the fact that there is a second truth to her success, and that is the ability and experience of her veterans and the trust and faith that the untrained soldiers have in them. The veterans became a substitute for her as far as the trust of the common soldier in one's military leader goes. And that is why i am saying that there are two distinct truths: that her army found ways to win because they were not constricted by hard rules, and that she had the brilliance of not constricting them and allowing them the freedom to do their best. And given their lack of faith in her from the get go, had she attempted a style of leadership like Coltaine's, it might not have worked.
I am not sure that is an accurate description of Coltaine. He trusted that the sappers would play their part, he certainly didn't direct them or plan their actions. That is the whole reason he doesn't recognise the sapper captain, he wasn't there for the briefings and didn't ever consult with Coltaine. The Malazan army trusted in the flexibility and expertise of the units. Something I believe is credited to Dassem instigating.
@@ACriticalDragon I don't know that I agree with this description of Coltaine. Sure, he didn't have the sapper captain to his staff meetings and he didn't know the man. But the orders did get relayed to the sappers regardless. At Gelor Ridge he had the wizards prepare that mare so his heavy cavalry could go up the slope. And he had the sappers dig themselves underground with shields on top of them for the cavalry charge that was going to ensue. That was coordinated, it didn't just happen, and the sappers knew what they had to do. At Sekala crossing he had the sappers build a bridge overnight, sent in the cattle first to have the cover of dust, then the refugees and his army, then he blew up the bridge behind them. That too wasn't a sappers only initiative behind his back. It was coordinated, with or without the sapper captain at the staff meetings. Every step of the way, Coltaine calculated and planned his way through. Tavore on the other side... she said "forward" and off they went following Shai'k's trail. Then she said "forward" and off they went following Leoman. Then she said "forward" and they charged at Y'Ghatan. Then she said "forward" and they conquered Lether on their own, without her there to coordinate anything. I am willing to accept that her circumstances were of such nature that she didn't have the need or opportunity to do more planning. And that all the "forward" was planned based on her final destination, which in itself was a strategy. And that having them alone in Lether without the means of returning was a tactical consideration. But the truth is we don't see much of Tavore being a strategist. Not like Coltaine at least. To be clear, I am not saying that she was incompetent, far from it. But I do say that we don't see a lot of strategic planning from her in the books other than making plans of where to go and how to get equipped to get there.
Unrelated question if I may. Spoilers ahead! How exactly does the Crippled God know everything he wrote in the Book of the Fallen? I must assume hes omniscient. But if so, was he always omniscient, even when he was chained? After Cotillion set him free, he presumably returned to his home realm and decided to write the book. If he regained his omniscience, how was he able to gleam into the past?
Hello! I don't agree that fans don't consider Tavore as a great general as much as Coltaine because she is a woman. Malazan books have many important woman characters and very cool too! I think that Coltaine "sold" himself better. He was in the thick of things and while he remained at the back he was a constant presence in the Chain of Dogs. And venerated afterwards. On the other hand we have Tavore who on purpose wasn't mentioned until the very end, an unsurprising but satisfactory plot twist. So since book 2 we are constantly reminded about Coltaine, overshadowing her or trying to. She was fantastic from day one, she is a great general. The other guy was a stronger presence to the point he had a entire alien tribe worship him (I don't miss the point that they where following her). Steve succeeded in his plans there.
I think that you misunderstood the discussion. It wasn't that all fans thought that Tavore was a bad general, it was that some fans thought this. And it wasn't that the sole reason was her being a woman, it was one possible reason. Also, Coltaine didn't promote himself as a general, Coltaine didn't promote himself at all... he is a character in a book. The narrative frames Coltaine as an heroic general, and that framing corresponds to a presumption that many people hold about male heroic figures. The narrative doesn't frame Tavore as a hero, and that is precisely a point that I raised with Erikson.
Thanks for doing these for us, AP. your contribution to the Malazan community has been unbelievable. Your channel is a goldmine and probably my favorite on TH-cam
Thank you very much. That is very kind of you to say.
I am really happy that people enjoy these discussions with Erikson.
Tavore is my favourite fictional character. I want to reassure Steve that the speech is well loved, at least by me. Tavore tells the Bonehunters that they will be unwitnessed. The speech demonstrates that not only does she see them but she knows them and understands them. It’s a great speech and it reduces me to tears every time I read it. I’ve never had a tattoo but if I ever do it will read, “ Bonehunters. Yield only in death on this day.”
Personally I went with a Bridgeburners tattoo. No regrets. Might add a Bonehunters one on the opposite shoulder one day.
It is not often that I hear someone saying Tavore is their favourite character. Thanks for that. I hope that you enjoyed the discussion.
I loved her speech too, it is such an emotional scene. I could always watch a video on it. ;)
I really appreciate Steven Erikson pointing out the "elephant in the room" as it were. I was thinking about it when AP and Steven were discussing differences and I'm glad it was actually brought up.
I think it is a factor, potentially a very significant one, but it can be a difficult one to broach in the current climate because so many people react negatively or aggressively to finding out that there is a potential cultural bias in how we read and perceive the world around us.
That poor speech has gone... unwitnessed. Great video! I'd say Tavore herself doesn't get enough content about her, so thank you for this!
To be fair, lots of people witnessed it, just not in this video 😂😂
This was a great discussion. Some things I had not thought much about... time for another re-read. Steven is just such an intellectual. You did great to understand and present the concepts and guide the discussion.
I like the birds, they're a nice addition to the video 😍 Also: nice hat, Steve 😊
Tavore's speech is a great moment. She is such an enigmatic character for a first read of the series (and without having had access to any of these amazing and helpful conversations at that time), and that speech touched my heart... I couldn't help but love her.
Thank you for the great conversation, see you in the next one :)
I will have to try to arrange for more birds in the future. They are certainly a charming addition.
Always great to hear from you. I hope that you have a fantastic week.
I gained so much more appreciation for Tavore on a reread. Absolutely one of my favorite characters of the series, she breaks my heart in so many ways😭
One of the great things about a re-read is that it opens your eyes to so many things you missed or ignored the first time through. This is true for so many books and series. I am glad that you enjoyed the series.
I love how these conversations are 75% AP raving about all the themes, concepts and details and Erikson just nodding sagely and affirming. 🤣 Love your thoughts though!
Great chat. That bit about Tavore studying campaigns as a child always stuck with me. But yeah, it took me a while to realise we were witnessing an army and a leader built for legend... Always bittersweet that they'd go unrecognised.
Unwitnessed... except for us. :)
Thank you AP and Steve!! These chats are always so fun and interesting
This was definitely a comparison I hadn’t considered, and the parallels are pretty amazing. Really appreciated the breakdown of the details, especially the patriarchal stuff
And honestly the thing that really got me was Steve’s Fiddler/Blistig comparison. Now THAT is something. And I think Fiddler actually had more internal doubts than Steve remembers (which is fine, not saying he obscured on purpose) - BUT Steve’s overall point is still absolutely salient. And that is - Fiddler doubts INTERNALLY, but his actions show he trusts Tavore. Blistig externalizes his doubt, and that makes all the difference
Anyway thanks again!!
Churchill: fight... on the beaches!
Tavore: And I shall stand with you, my beloved soldiers. Say nothing. We are walls of silence, you and me. We are perfect reflections of the one we face, and we have faced each other for so long now. And the meaning of that silence is none of the enemy's business.
Sorry AP, Tavore wins there 😛
Are you doing a video on the speech or am I?
@@ACriticalDragon uhhhhh both???? I don’t see why this shouldn’t be a collaboration???
Tavore is the GOAT 🙌🐐
And her speech at the end of The Crippled God is one of my favorite scenes :)
I don’t know if I noticed the parallel with Coltaine, but the parallel between the march through the Glass Desert and the Chain of Dogs rang resoundingly true for me.
I’ve never felt like a sports fan until there’s a Tavore hater and I start chanting “Scoooreboard, scoooreboard” 😂
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
I will have to remember that response.
Great discussion. I never really thought of her parallels with coltaine.
Tavore's speech is one of my favorite moments in Book of the Fallen, and I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who likes it and her a as character. I doubted her in House of Chains but by the end of Bonehunters I was right on her side. What I find fascinating lately is the parallel between her and Hellian. Tavore is a military genius who always makes the right choice. Hellian is a drunken, chaotic and never thinks about what she's about to do... but also keeps making the right choice (tactically).
Quick Jen has a brilliant video on Hellian : th-cam.com/video/AieUxsm22Rk/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=QuickJen
I highly recommend it.
@@ACriticalDragon Thanks for the recommendation AP! It was a great video
This is a great illuminating video because I've always wanted to understand Tavore more.
How many hours do you spend thinking up these topics? ha! Great video and insight into how these novels fit together and how one can continually glean new information out of them no matter how many times they are read (even though it was right there in front of us the whole time). Tavore is one of the greatest literary characters out there and deserves all the recognition she can get. Thanks AP!
Erikson and I chat relatively regularly, and sometimes something one of us says spurs a discussion that we think might be of interest to other people. This happened to be one of those things.
so thankful for these videos, especially getting as much content on tavore as possible (my second favourite fictional character ever). finding it awkward to structure this comment because i don’t want to come across as ungrateful for the content we get but id be beyond fascinated in hearing your/Erikson’s opinions on anything that further concerns her character. the similarities in presentation between her and anomander, whether the comment about her acting 'noble' (TCG) was an intentional decision exploring the ‘benefits’ of acting in a manner that aligns with your nature and how that would tie into the larger narrative of her as the 'Adjunct' - honestly id be overjoyed by any type of in depth discussion about her retaining her title throughout i just think it has so many interesting/impressive philosophical, ethical and narrative implications.
apologies if this came across badly, love the work you do for us. also if steven you happen to see this comment, just know Tavore’s speech is held in extremely high regard - at least in my little corner of the internet
I can bring it up with Erikson and see if he wants to discuss it.
@@ACriticalDragon It is an interesting concept that initially she was the Adjunct for Laseen. Then when they broke with the Empire, the title might have seen as no longer applicable but in one sense she was still an Adjunct for the greater mission - and to whom is a debate that will never end.
Great video. My impression reading the series was that Tavore was often underestimated, despite her achievement, mainly for her lack of comunication... until her speech. Sorry if is off-topic, but I've recently finished "Rejoice" and it was great, I relly hope Mr. Erikson will write more books in that setting. Thank you
Coltaine wasn't famous for his communication either, so why wasn't he underestimated because of that?
@@ACriticalDragon Yuo are wrigth, I didn't saw the parallel, sorry, maybe because for Coltaine the relationship between General and army is already established and for Tavore is in development, but probably I also made the mistake to underestimate her. Certainly I need to re-read the series after seven years. Thank you again.
Just finished reading The Crippled God…it’s bittersweet that the series is complete but this discussion with SE was perfect. One on of the most mysterious and well written characters for me is Tavore but I’ve wondered when she takes out the talon necklace.. does that reveal something? Or is it just me to think that maybe she was a talon or better she’s the daughter of Cotillion! AP, I’m hoping you can provide some clarity! Thank you!
Ganoes Paran fairly clearly praises his sister's abilities early on in the series. His and his sister's account is the most accurate and reliable as he is in a position to convey an understanding of her abilities reliably. Further, the recounting of Tavore's countless battles with toy soldiers cements her strategic and tactical mind.:
"Tavore had claimed her brother's bone and antler toy soldiers, and in the rubble of the torn-up estate wall, where repairs had been undertaken by the grounds workers, she had arranged a miniature battle.
Only later would Felisin learn that her nine-year-old sister had been, in fact, recreating a set battle, culled from historical accounts of a century-old clash between a Royal Untan army and the rebelling House of K'azz D'Avore. A battle that had seen the annihilation of the renegade noble family's forces and the subjugation of the D'Avore household. And that, taking on the role of Duke Kenussen D'Avore, she was working through every possible sequence of tactics toward achieving a victory. Trapped by a series of unfortunate circumstances in a steep-sided valley, and hopelessly outnumbered, the unanimous consensus among military scholars was that such victory was impossible."
That scene and additional scenes from that chapter 18 of House o Chains were enough to give me faith in Tavore's abilities as a military leader. I don't recall having the built-up doubt about her potential.
Additionally, she is described as cold iron. which to my mind means rational, calculating, deliberate, and methodical
While we might be in the position of the grunts for much of the series with their doubts and concerns we also had access to Paran, Felisin, and L'oric. Attentive readers should have great faith in her abilities.
I'd say the speech that Tavore gives, while not being particularly inspiring, is perfect for the place that it is in. Gives insight into Tavore as a character, gives the troops what they need to hear (though very much not what they want to hear), and is a rare case of a leader actually being perfectly honest with their subordinates. The causes she advocates for are for the most part noble, she genuinely cares about those serving her, and she is willing to bear the responsibility of failure. Sounds like a leader I'd follow as well. I'd also add to this that Tavore's plain appearance is doing her no favours, I know that I am biased in favour of good looks and against those who are plainer even when they are just described to me, an unfortunate but very real part of human nature.
There are so many different types of leaders and approaches to leadership, and yet there are certain stereotypes/archetypes that regularly get used in Fantasy that we forget or are unused to the others.
Dang it. Was looking forward to listening to this. Looks like it might be something to keep away from till i qm further in.
Don't worry, it is full of laughin' and lyin'.
@@ACriticalDragon Don't instigate.
Hahahaha. No comment, just hahahahaahahahaha
(Laughin and lyin)
Hey A.P hope u are well! I know u probably get this a lot so I apologize if you’ve answered this a ton of time and I also don’t want u to feel rushed but any idea when your and Phillips crippled god videos will be coming ? I’m so excited but just take ur time and tackle them when u feel ready, have a good day :)
I will be getting around to it soon.
Sorry for the delay.
CG Spoiler / question!
Tavore, army, glass desert. Why did she wait so long for the ritual? If she knew they were in a bay could she not have flooded it, eventually it would have made its way up to them. Did she suspect the Snake was in there and didn't want to kill children yet still waited after all the water was done and Snake with them? Wasn't magic equally dead there as it was at the beginning? That march and the terrible circumstances knowing the resolution strikes me as add. House of Chains Tavore knew her army at that point so hardly a need to 'break' them and push them. I guess they wouldn't have had ships to float the basin that far inland to sail the glass desert?
My favorite example for trust is Lostara. Through the entire march, through nearly being killed, starved, she held onto that tiny little secret much like that tiny little box of compassion that they saw reflected in Tavore from that whole Barghast description of leadership.
Have you ever played a computer game that has once use items? What if you use it too early?
Tavares can't die and reload. She waits until what she considers is the last possible moment because she isn't omniscient and doesn't know how many chapters are left in the story.
Secondly, it is not as if it came with detailed instructions that outlined exactly how much water would be created,so she had to find terrain that would work to try and contain and capture what was released.
Lastly, elder magic powered by blood is different to the Warren's. This was demonstrated by Nil and Nether in Deadhouse Gates.
So from a character point of view, without the benefit of the extra knowledge that a reader has, I think her decision makes perfect sense.
Alright so that explanation is on some forums as well which I could ahve been sarifyied with. Ha! My issue with this explanation is Tavore knew Bugg is an elder god and well it seems hard to believe that she wouldn't have known Bugg was Mael if she had determined what he was. So it seems that it was going to be something that had to do with water. Not that I remembered her having this dagger until she used it, but in hindsight I guess. Ha! Knowing the stakes and how the convergence was affecting the land to see something small come from an elder god at this location and this point in time didn't seem the expectation. As for the blood sacrifice I have nothing to argue there if you don't know the cost holding out makes sense as far as Tavore was and had been willing to give herself for them and for the future. Be curious if she had died if the army would have advanced.
That reasoning though is far better than that suffering of the entire army to bring them to the Fallen one was needed.
Thank you so much for the response once again!
Somehow I saw the lack of hand-holding as a positive.
I have to admit I would not have appreciated Tavore as much if it weren't for the community hinting at it.
Tavore on a re-read when you have the bigger picture is so great.
*!&@ SPOILERS !@&$
She was a talon with the loyalties and end-game goals that entails the ENTIRE time.
Also, her unwittnessed speech is amazing!
So a video on the Unwitnessed speech then?
@@ACriticalDragon yes please!
I always likened Coltaine to Tavore and to Anomander, in that order, with the burden and the success of their mission growing from one to the next.
But as far as Tavore goes, I think it would be fair to say that there are two distinct truths about her: one that she is a brilliant strategist and leader; the other that the Malazans are the ones who got her out of tight spots irrespective of her strategic genius. For example, she had no foreknowledge of Beak, she couldn't have possibly planned for that. And if Beak hadn't been there, there would have been not only no victory, but no army to talk about. And she couldn't have planned for the ghosts in Raraku either. Had she attacked with her untrained army, she may not have come out that well. Her greatest gamble is counting on the veterans to pull together and get through the day. Her trust in them is directly proportional with their lack of trust in her. And yet she gambles everything on that her veterans will find a way out of anything if squeezed hard enough.
That's not to take away from her talent as a strategist, on the contrary: having the faith to take this risk is part of her genius as a leader. Where Coltaine controlled every battled and had an anticipated response to every possible move, and his people knew in advance what he wanted them to do, Tavore plays her campaigns quite differently. Her strategy, especially in Lether, is to let her people do what they do best while she guides them in silence. However, that does not take away the fact that there is a second truth to her success, and that is the ability and experience of her veterans and the trust and faith that the untrained soldiers have in them. The veterans became a substitute for her as far as the trust of the common soldier in one's military leader goes. And that is why i am saying that there are two distinct truths: that her army found ways to win because they were not constricted by hard rules, and that she had the brilliance of not constricting them and allowing them the freedom to do their best. And given their lack of faith in her from the get go, had she attempted a style of leadership like Coltaine's, it might not have worked.
I am not sure that is an accurate description of Coltaine. He trusted that the sappers would play their part, he certainly didn't direct them or plan their actions. That is the whole reason he doesn't recognise the sapper captain, he wasn't there for the briefings and didn't ever consult with Coltaine.
The Malazan army trusted in the flexibility and expertise of the units. Something I believe is credited to Dassem instigating.
@@ACriticalDragon I don't know that I agree with this description of Coltaine. Sure, he didn't have the sapper captain to his staff meetings and he didn't know the man. But the orders did get relayed to the sappers regardless.
At Gelor Ridge he had the wizards prepare that mare so his heavy cavalry could go up the slope. And he had the sappers dig themselves underground with shields on top of them for the cavalry charge that was going to ensue. That was coordinated, it didn't just happen, and the sappers knew what they had to do.
At Sekala crossing he had the sappers build a bridge overnight, sent in the cattle first to have the cover of dust, then the refugees and his army, then he blew up the bridge behind them. That too wasn't a sappers only initiative behind his back. It was coordinated, with or without the sapper captain at the staff meetings. Every step of the way, Coltaine calculated and planned his way through.
Tavore on the other side... she said "forward" and off they went following Shai'k's trail. Then she said "forward" and off they went following Leoman. Then she said "forward" and they charged at Y'Ghatan. Then she said "forward" and they conquered Lether on their own, without her there to coordinate anything.
I am willing to accept that her circumstances were of such nature that she didn't have the need or opportunity to do more planning. And that all the "forward" was planned based on her final destination, which in itself was a strategy. And that having them alone in Lether without the means of returning was a tactical consideration. But the truth is we don't see much of Tavore being a strategist. Not like Coltaine at least.
To be clear, I am not saying that she was incompetent, far from it. But I do say that we don't see a lot of strategic planning from her in the books other than making plans of where to go and how to get equipped to get there.
Unrelated question if I may. Spoilers ahead!
How exactly does the Crippled God know everything he wrote in the Book of the Fallen? I must assume hes omniscient. But if so, was he always omniscient, even when he was chained? After Cotillion set him free, he presumably returned to his home realm and decided to write the book. If he regained his omniscience, how was he able to gleam into the past?
This isn't detailed in the book, so there are multiple theories that fit the narrative, not all of them rely upon omniscience.
@@ACriticalDragon Interesting, where may i read more about these theories?
Reddit.
"you know Tavore, don't you? You know her and she is cold iron, isn't she?"
At least until she had that curry.
Hello! I don't agree that fans don't consider Tavore as a great general as much as Coltaine because she is a woman. Malazan books have many important woman characters and very cool too!
I think that Coltaine "sold" himself better. He was in the thick of things and while he remained at the back he was a constant presence in the Chain of Dogs. And venerated afterwards. On the other hand we have Tavore who on purpose wasn't mentioned until the very end, an unsurprising but satisfactory plot twist. So since book 2 we are constantly reminded about Coltaine, overshadowing her or trying to. She was fantastic from day one, she is a great general. The other guy was a stronger presence to the point he had a entire alien tribe worship him (I don't miss the point that they where following her). Steve succeeded in his plans there.
I think that you misunderstood the discussion. It wasn't that all fans thought that Tavore was a bad general, it was that some fans thought this. And it wasn't that the sole reason was her being a woman, it was one possible reason.
Also, Coltaine didn't promote himself as a general, Coltaine didn't promote himself at all... he is a character in a book. The narrative frames Coltaine as an heroic general, and that framing corresponds to a presumption that many people hold about male heroic figures. The narrative doesn't frame Tavore as a hero, and that is precisely a point that I raised with Erikson.
@@ACriticalDragon My bad! Thank you for taking the time to clarify AP.
No worries at all. Glad I could clarify things.
The Birds! The Birds!
I like to think that there is a bird D'vers hanging out with Erikson and keeping an eye on him.
I can hear the birds
They came out a lot clearer in the recording than at the time of the conversation. It was a pleasant surprise.