A library tour would be very nice sometime AP ;) Great talk as always, it really is quite fascinating how popular culture has managed to get people to celebrate many a gruesome people. Me included to be honest lol
Part of what made Thomas Covenant so fascinating was the fact that he wasn't likeable at all. It was so refreshing to read that series after reading all the other stuff in the 80s where the hero was actually a pleasant person you'd want to meet. Of course there are probably many other examples but he sticks out in my mind the most. Great discussion AP!
This would be one of those things that I enjoy about the Fantasy genre (and literature in general), the amazing variety of stories that are told. Sometimes I am in the mood for an heroic yarn of derring do, and sometimes I want something more cerebral, or darker, or whimsical.
Very interesting discussion, thank you both! :) For me as a reader, the most despicable villain can become likable, engaging, fascinating when I understand (not necessarily condone) their motivations, and if those motivations are rooted (believably) in their emotions. I cannot stand the "I want to destroy the world, because I'm evil" villains, or, for that matter, the "I have to save the world because I'm good" heroes.
While I agree, I find the "because I am evil"-one inherently worse. Nearly everyone wouldn't want their world to end (in one way or another), so the "because I am good" part is not even needed for some and you already have selfish motivation for the "lets save the world" characters, which the evil for evils sake one is lacking. Ofc this is far more complex, but when you reduce it to just "destroy because evil" and "save because good" I would prefer the latter.
Great discussion! Would love to hear more critical character studies à la Tony Stark, quick as it was. I'd recommend (and Erikson would too, I'm sure) Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy as source material.
From memory (admittedly hazy) I can't recall any of Bakker's characters being 'likable'. From what I vaguely remember they were all terrible people. But I might be misremembering.
@@ACriticalDragon Oh yes! He strived in the first trilogy to show characters caught within troublesome expectations/systems, and one character who could manipulate the systems through people. They're all mixed bags, with "sympathetic" moments and motives, and moments of profound weakness or cruelty. I'd be more interested in your thoughts on depth than likeability. As you and Cam point out, the "best" characters are not just the ones who we want to like. (I can't bring myself to think of Achamian or Esmenet as terrible people, in those first 3 books, anyways.)
@@ACriticalDragon oh no worries, I'm just kidding. I didn't really choose this username because I'm super into vikings, it was just something on my mind at the time and it stuck haha
Commenting as I watch, so I don't know if you'll touch on this later in the video - but it's particularly difficult to make double-entendres land when writing for such a broad spectrum of English speakers (readers) Edit: Yep, Mr Esslemont basically suggested the same 😄
In action films, the bad guys are often the most interesting characters. Franchises like James Bond have made a whole formula around it. Other franchises tried to do this too, like the Star Trek The Next Generation films, but in that case I found it a bad decision to create a new villain each time.
I never understood the, let’s say, apprehension towards Felisin. I always liked her (and not only the realization of her character). I understood her. And, so to say, I wished her well and regretted her end (even though it’s very moving). I didn’t like what happened to her. But that, of course, was the point.
Empathy, sympathy, and the ability to see things from outside our own personal perspectives are skills that are increasingly rare and harder to develop in today's mechanised, digitised, online world, because we spend so much time removed from other people's experiences and see them only from a distance.
I am trying to think of an assassin main character who actually assassinated someone but am drawing a blank... But focusing more on the villain might be an aspect of 'grimdark' where the villain is presented as an actual.fleshed out character instead of some cardboard cutout whonwants to conquer and/or destroy the world just because that is was evilncharacters do.
@ACriticalDragon Okay, maybe some day, I just felt compelled to mention it as it fits somewhere in between books and classical games as it is so dialogue/reading heavy (you spend 90% or more of the time mid dialogue), has a very interesting if depressing world that is filled with interesting and sometimes unlikeable characters and is probably in the top 3 of all games I played in the last 15+ years. But you at least seem to know of its existence, so I can rest easy ^^
I've had similar conversations about Vikings recently. It is odd that otherwise reasonable people find rape so amusing as long as the rapists are wearing historically incorrect horned helmets.
ICE Just within FoTHM . You take rhe character of Tayschren. Hes so much more likeable. And that Knowledge bleeds into Steve's work no matter how many times you've read it
![CAMPปลิ้น | รวม Highlight 2024! PART [1/2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/6hnvNnvYloU/mqdefault.jpg)
A library tour would be very nice sometime AP ;)
Great talk as always, it really is quite fascinating how popular culture has managed to get people to celebrate many a gruesome people. Me included to be honest lol
The power of narrative to sway popular perception is a heady force.
Thank you AP for the video. It was very entertaining and educative!
I am happy that you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching.
Part of what made Thomas Covenant so fascinating was the fact that he wasn't likeable at all. It was so refreshing to read that series after reading all the other stuff in the 80s where the hero was actually a pleasant person you'd want to meet. Of course there are probably many other examples but he sticks out in my mind the most. Great discussion AP!
This would be one of those things that I enjoy about the Fantasy genre (and literature in general), the amazing variety of stories that are told. Sometimes I am in the mood for an heroic yarn of derring do, and sometimes I want something more cerebral, or darker, or whimsical.
Very interesting discussion, thank you both! :)
For me as a reader, the most despicable villain can become likable, engaging, fascinating when I understand (not necessarily condone) their motivations, and if those motivations are rooted (believably) in their emotions. I cannot stand the "I want to destroy the world, because I'm evil" villains, or, for that matter, the "I have to save the world because I'm good" heroes.
While I agree, I find the "because I am evil"-one inherently worse. Nearly everyone wouldn't want their world to end (in one way or another), so the "because I am good" part is not even needed for some and you already have selfish motivation for the "lets save the world" characters, which the evil for evils sake one is lacking. Ofc this is far more complex, but when you reduce it to just "destroy because evil" and "save because good" I would prefer the latter.
@@kingplunger1 Oh yes, definitely prefering the latter, but it's just as boring to read for me and usually fails to make me "like" that hero. :)
@@likliksnekAgreed, even though I would add that these good characters can be but a starting point and the arc/changes can make them interesting.
I see. You have used your magic not for fireballs but rather a summoning this time. Alwyas great to see Ian
It is always great to chat with Esslemont. I will try to get him to record a few more discussions with me.
Hey great discussion as always. Also looking handsome on your new-ish profile pic, like a hollywood actor.
Brad Pitt maybe?
No, you're profile pic is the handsomest.
It is hard to find a good photo of me.I am not exactly photogenic, but my wife is a good photographer.
Great discussion! Would love to hear more critical character studies à la Tony Stark, quick as it was. I'd recommend (and Erikson would too, I'm sure) Bakker's Prince of Nothing trilogy as source material.
From memory (admittedly hazy) I can't recall any of Bakker's characters being 'likable'. From what I vaguely remember they were all terrible people. But I might be misremembering.
@@ACriticalDragon Oh yes! He strived in the first trilogy to show characters caught within troublesome expectations/systems, and one character who could manipulate the systems through people. They're all mixed bags, with "sympathetic" moments and motives, and moments of profound weakness or cruelty. I'd be more interested in your thoughts on depth than likeability. As you and Cam point out, the "best" characters are not just the ones who we want to like.
(I can't bring myself to think of Achamian or Esmenet as terrible people, in those first 3 books, anyways.)
That conversation about vikings felt quite relevant to me for some reason...
Sorry about that. It certainly wasn't aimed at you. It is a curious aspect of modern culture that has always intrigued me.
@@ACriticalDragon oh no worries, I'm just kidding. I didn't really choose this username because I'm super into vikings, it was just something on my mind at the time and it stuck haha
Would you mind explaining why the book title got changed from the Jihistal to Forge of the High Mage? If that was even reported correctly
That was the publisher's decision. They thought the working title was too obscure and niche.
Steve's last book was a niche title though. I think Forge of the High Mage resonates more after reading it though.
Great discussion
Thanks, I am glad that you enjoyed it.
Commenting as I watch, so I don't know if you'll touch on this later in the video - but it's particularly difficult to make double-entendres land when writing for such a broad spectrum of English speakers (readers)
Edit: Yep, Mr Esslemont basically suggested the same 😄
Yup, Esslemont is a smart one.
In action films, the bad guys are often the most interesting characters. Franchises like James Bond have made a whole formula around it. Other franchises tried to do this too, like the Star Trek The Next Generation films, but in that case I found it a bad decision to create a new villain each time.
I never understood the, let’s say, apprehension towards Felisin. I always liked her (and not only the realization of her character). I understood her. And, so to say, I wished her well and regretted her end (even though it’s very moving). I didn’t like what happened to her. But that, of course, was the point.
Empathy, sympathy, and the ability to see things from outside our own personal perspectives are skills that are increasingly rare and harder to develop in today's mechanised, digitised, online world, because we spend so much time removed from other people's experiences and see them only from a distance.
I am trying to think of an assassin main character who actually assassinated someone but am drawing a blank...
But focusing more on the villain might be an aspect of 'grimdark' where the villain is presented as an actual.fleshed out character instead of some cardboard cutout whonwants to conquer and/or destroy the world just because that is was evilncharacters do.
I think that typically the assassin takes out bad guys so as to give us a moral fig leaf.
On the topic of likable characters, did you play Disco Elysium ?
I have never played it, unfortunately. I am also not likely to anytime soon.
@ACriticalDragon Okay, maybe some day, I just felt compelled to mention it as it fits somewhere in between books and classical games as it is so dialogue/reading heavy (you spend 90% or more of the time mid dialogue), has a very interesting if depressing world that is filled with interesting and sometimes unlikeable characters and is probably in the top 3 of all games I played in the last 15+ years. But you at least seem to know of its existence, so I can rest easy ^^
This is why I only read books with no bad guys
It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off.
I've had similar conversations about Vikings recently. It is odd that otherwise reasonable people find rape so amusing as long as the rapists are wearing historically incorrect horned helmets.
The power of marketing and branding in action.
ICE Just within FoTHM . You take rhe character of Tayschren. Hes so much more likeable. And that Knowledge bleeds into Steve's work no matter how many times you've read it
I still haven't forgiven him for making me like Tayschrenn.