Solid discussion! My humble 2 cents: Only hire rock stars and train daily on company culture. We start every day with 45-60 mins of training. I'd easily put our 7 hours of production against 10 hours of a shop that doesn't train.
We are a 15 person tool and die shop. I have found that it is definitely better to have a smaller number of quality employees that make you more per hour rather than more employees and more headaches even if it limits the total volume of work you can take on. We have also tried hiring employees on character rather than previous work experience because wev found that sometimes previous experience can bring bad habits with them. A great work ethic and mechanical aptitude can go a long way in this field. Thanks for posting!
Bad management and attitude at my old place of employment really got under my skin. They seemed to hire anyone and what a pain that was, but there are lessons learnt everywhere. We had one mechanic that loved to ask for help but when ever I needed an extra set of hands the other guy refused to come over and help. I also found it difficult to work efficiently because I had to answer the phone as well. In the end I stopped giving a crap and made a plan to set up my own shop. I’ve been working along for nearly 3 years now and been pretty much working flat out.
It's TRUE I'm not a shop owner and I have only been cnc machining for 5 years. I can hand program at the control simple to intermediate parts. I have been told I know as much as some guys who have been working on this trade for 10+ years by coworkers or bosses but I dont think this is the case. I dont consider myself to be on par With a real 10-20 years experienced and knowledgable machinist. My response is always that years of experience dont matter because you can be doing this for 30 yrs and still be below average.
A quote I like is "Do you have 20 years of experience, or 1 year of experience 20 times over?" Or something similar to that. Like older timers that just hang around doing the same stuff they've always done.
You are correct, finding good people who don't fluff their resume to death is hard as hell now. I am in a semi small shop now (around 20 people depending on the day) We are still looking for semi good people for most departments and are willing to put a little training into the people we hire. The owner has had the same problem as you, just pissing away time and money on someone who turns out to know nothing. I sat down and came up with a basic interview test, covers what we do but has enough kinks in it that if you dont have the experience than you are not going to be able to do it. Takes about 2.5-3 hrs to go thru it with the person after they pass the written test (this proves you can read and write English and do basic math) Since we started doing this we have been able to weed out a lot of problems before they start. I am the machinist/welder at this place (Have red seals for both) I do not really hold a position of power but I was the foreman for the last 2 shops I was at and this always worked for me.
My problem was that I can find the skilled employee but then they start missing time for a bunch of reasons. I'm in Alberta and there's a real entitlement problem here. Plus a "taking a day off is good for your mental health" belief that I think is total crap.
I agree having less staff is better. ANd on top of that I think having overkill machines is better. 10 guys running 10 low end lathes on 1 shift versus having fever guys running automated lathes with multiple turrets, yc axis etc. Of course it doesnt always work that way.
My last job was running a small machine shop in a big company. They relied heavily on automatic inventory management and the lack of feedback to sales meant that we would get slammed hard. Nevertheless, I had to spend alot of time dealing with people problems. I've had to play alot of games, like one way messaging where a guy will text or email you but not respond to your reply. Or Simon says, where a guy knows what to do but won't do it unless you officially tell them to so it's not on them. When my experienced guys left, I had to hire temps through an agency. I've seen people do some utterly unexplainable things. No understanding of the job at all. I had to hire people right off the street. One guy stuck his hand in a an arbor mill and lost a finger. I was literally running between machines. It was the most stressful time. But eventually those new hires started putting up serious numbers. The guy missing the finger: my number one guy. They are rock solid now. No games. No reason to think they won't be there in years to come.
It would be worth having a machine set aside for prep. Saves time on jobs by ripping ODs and drilling and opening up bores. Basic stuff, but it would be a nice place to train people off the street.
I have a welding shop and have the some problems. We build aluminum fuel tanks for boat and to find someone that can weld aluminum good is hard . I feel your pain .
Have you reached out to non-traditional employees? In the shops I managed women's eye hand coordination was much better than the mens, had some great results with women TIG welding personnel.
lots of times the guys who talks less about their expiriense on the job know the job very well and will listen to you what you have to say about your shop. they already have the expirience and saw all the "story tellers" around. they also know about the workers quality around them and also they will ask for a big price for their job. you should be ready for that.
I appreciate people that have the ability to gain more experience and grow, but they need to be aware that just running a couple parts doesn't mean it's enough to claim you can do it unattended. I assume people get nervous about that when writing a resume (or interview) but I wish they'd realize the value in being able to learn. On a resume, just mark everything else as a "skills attained" and we can figure out where you'd be a good fit based on how quick it comes to you.
We did a trial for this one candidate to evaluate his skill level. Long story short, I walked away for a minute because he seemed to know his way around the machine. When I returned he just started a probing cycle to pick up the centerline of some stock. But entered -4. Instead of -.4 and crashed our probe. Needless to say we didnt hire him. We lost a couple thousand in the process... the pool of talent or lack there of out there is scary. There are some skills that can be taught. But the ones that cant are the killers.
15 people over 3 years is not too bad when it comes to a small shop like yours. Small shops have a much higher turnover than larger shops. My first job was in a shop similar to yours. High production shop with only 5 workers. I stayed a year and a half and saw 5 people come and leave in that time. Most left because low pay and high production of small cheap parts. I left for the same reasons. Small shops can’t afford to pay good wages so they have a hard time attracting and retaining good workers. Now I work at a mid size (50 employees total, 15 of the machinists). Almost two years here and no one has left and only one new person was hired. Small shops are at a disadvantage when it comes to pay and employee retention. That’s just reality.
I don't know about the demographics in your area. But if there are alot of Machine shops around you're going to have alot of turn over. It's an employees market right now. Shops are popping up all around my area and shops are having a hard time keeping people. Look and see if other shops are hiring. Perspective - why would I work at one shop when the shop down the road is paying 1 dollar an hour more for basically the same job. You may need to offer something else to make them think twice about leaving. Also I've noticed someone who is unskilled isn't necessarily a bad thing. Someone who is willing to work hard is trainable vs someone who is skilled but unwilling to work. Also there is always a learning curve when starting a new job. New employees are trying to learn the way you do things and may have some bad habits from previous jobs. So inexperience can be to your benefit. Im just saying maybe give someone who doesn't have the experience you're looking for a shot. They may surprise you.
Solid discussion! My humble 2 cents: Only hire rock stars and train daily on company culture. We start every day with 45-60 mins of training. I'd easily put our 7 hours of production against 10 hours of a shop that doesn't train.
We are a 15 person tool and die shop. I have found that it is definitely better to have a smaller number of quality employees that make you more per hour rather than more employees and more headaches even if it limits the total volume of work you can take on. We have also tried hiring employees on character rather than previous work experience because wev found that sometimes previous experience can bring bad habits with them. A great work ethic and mechanical aptitude can go a long way in this field.
Thanks for posting!
Bad management and attitude at my old place of employment really got under my skin.
They seemed to hire anyone and what a pain that was, but there are lessons learnt everywhere.
We had one mechanic that loved to ask for help but when ever I needed an extra set of hands the other guy refused to come over and help.
I also found it difficult to work efficiently because I had to answer the phone as well.
In the end I stopped giving a crap and made a plan to set up my own shop.
I’ve been working along for nearly 3 years now and been pretty much working flat out.
It's TRUE I'm not a shop owner and I have only been cnc machining for 5 years. I can hand program at the control simple to intermediate parts. I have been told I know as much as some guys who have been working on this trade for 10+ years by coworkers or bosses but I dont think this is the case. I dont consider myself to be on par
With a real 10-20 years experienced and knowledgable machinist.
My response is always that years of experience dont matter because you can be doing this for 30 yrs and still be below average.
A quote I like is "Do you have 20 years of experience, or 1 year of experience 20 times over?" Or something similar to that. Like older timers that just hang around doing the same stuff they've always done.
You are correct, finding good people who don't fluff their resume to death is hard as hell now. I am in a semi small shop now (around 20 people depending on the day) We are still looking for semi good people for most departments and are willing to put a little training into the people we hire. The owner has had the same problem as you, just pissing away time and money on someone who turns out to know nothing. I sat down and came up with a basic interview test, covers what we do but has enough kinks in it that if you dont have the experience than you are not going to be able to do it. Takes about 2.5-3 hrs to go thru it with the person after they pass the written test (this proves you can read and write English and do basic math) Since we started doing this we have been able to weed out a lot of problems before they start. I am the machinist/welder at this place (Have red seals for both) I do not really hold a position of power but I was the foreman for the last 2 shops I was at and this always worked for me.
My problem was that I can find the skilled employee but then they start missing time for a bunch of reasons. I'm in Alberta and there's a real entitlement problem here. Plus a "taking a day off is good for your mental health" belief that I think is total crap.
I agree having less staff is better. ANd on top of that I think having overkill machines is better. 10 guys running 10 low end lathes on 1 shift versus having fever guys running automated lathes with multiple turrets, yc axis etc. Of course it doesnt always work that way.
to be honest，this has been too long for me to wait for your new shop talk，these are really valuable informations
Makes perfect sense. People need integrity.
My last job was running a small machine shop in a big company. They relied heavily on automatic inventory management and the lack of feedback to sales meant that we would get slammed hard. Nevertheless, I had to spend alot of time dealing with people problems. I've had to play alot of games, like one way messaging where a guy will text or email you but not respond to your reply. Or Simon says, where a guy knows what to do but won't do it unless you officially tell them to so it's not on them. When my experienced guys left, I had to hire temps through an agency. I've seen people do some utterly unexplainable things. No understanding of the job at all. I had to hire people right off the street. One guy stuck his hand in a an arbor mill and lost a finger. I was literally running between machines. It was the most stressful time. But eventually those new hires started putting up serious numbers. The guy missing the finger: my number one guy. They are rock solid now. No games. No reason to think they won't be there in years to come.
It would be worth having a machine set aside for prep. Saves time on jobs by ripping ODs and drilling and opening up bores. Basic stuff, but it would be a nice place to train people off the street.
I have a welding shop and have the some problems.
We build aluminum fuel tanks for boat and to find someone that can weld aluminum good is hard . I feel your pain .
Have you reached out to non-traditional employees? In the shops I managed women's eye hand coordination was much better than the mens, had some great results with women TIG welding personnel.
lots of times the guys who talks less about their expiriense on the job know the job very well and will listen to you what you have to say about your shop. they already have the expirience and saw all the "story tellers" around. they also know about the workers quality around them and also they will ask for a big price for their job. you should be ready for that.
I applied at a shop three times before they hired me. Then I worked there for 10 years. So keep an open mind when interviewing prospective employees.
I appreciate people that have the ability to gain more experience and grow, but they need to be aware that just running a couple parts doesn't mean it's enough to claim you can do it unattended. I assume people get nervous about that when writing a resume (or interview) but I wish they'd realize the value in being able to learn. On a resume, just mark everything else as a "skills attained" and we can figure out where you'd be a good fit based on how quick it comes to you.
We did a trial for this one candidate to evaluate his skill level. Long story short, I walked away for a minute because he seemed to know his way around the machine. When I returned he just started a probing cycle to pick up the centerline of some stock. But entered -4. Instead of -.4 and crashed our probe. Needless to say we didnt hire him. We lost a couple thousand in the process... the pool of talent or lack there of out there is scary. There are some skills that can be taught. But the ones that cant are the killers.
Join the club mate hard to find good guys and even harder to keep hold of them
15 people over 3 years is not too bad when it comes to a small shop like yours. Small shops have a much higher turnover than larger shops.
My first job was in a shop similar to yours. High production shop with only 5 workers. I stayed a year and a half and saw 5 people come and leave in that time. Most left because low pay and high production of small cheap parts. I left for the same reasons.
Small shops can’t afford to pay good wages so they have a hard time attracting and retaining good workers.
Now I work at a mid size (50 employees total, 15 of the machinists). Almost two years here and no one has left and only one new person was hired.
Small shops are at a disadvantage when it comes to pay and employee retention. That’s just reality.
my shop is 2 people in 3 years. its a small one too. 10 people on floor, 3 in office, 15 is high for a small shop... in 3 years.
If you think people are embellishing their resume's just take a look at their hands. That is huge tell on their level of experience.
Whats your user name on PM?
I don’t have one actually, I’m just a lurker!
@@LetsMachine Oh hum.....well I sub'd to your channel anyway.... heh.
I don't know about the demographics in your area. But if there are alot of Machine shops around you're going to have alot of turn over. It's an employees market right now. Shops are popping up all around my area and shops are having a hard time keeping people. Look and see if other shops are hiring. Perspective - why would I work at one shop when the shop down the road is paying 1 dollar an hour more for basically the same job. You may need to offer something else to make them think twice about leaving. Also I've noticed someone who is unskilled isn't necessarily a bad thing. Someone who is willing to work hard is trainable vs someone who is skilled but unwilling to work. Also there is always a learning curve when starting a new job. New employees are trying to learn the way you do things and may have some bad habits from previous jobs. So inexperience can be to your benefit. Im just saying maybe give someone who doesn't have the experience you're looking for a shot. They may surprise you.