There's arguments for making the call with the properties of the caller's hand but the key takeaway is that even with all the blocker/board considerations this is just a fold against the general player pool. Aggression after a pot sized turn bet which is fairly large in absolute value for the game is the villian announcing that they have it.
Hey Bart, long time fan pre youtube: I feel like this comment borderline contradicts the general vibe around the feedback you gave the player in the call towards the end of the video, is it possible if they think this is correct they could continue to make these sort of plays or do you think they understood this is a 100% fold by the end of the call Thanks
I think it was a big mistake not discussing whether or not the villain is playing J-9 off. If the villain folds J-9 off preflop, this isn't a bad call. But if the villain is playing J-9 off, then there are so many more combos of value that this is a fold.
I think this is just a Cooler, plain and simple. Yes, it's probably a snap-fold in Tourney play, but at $1/$2, $2/$5 you shouldn't be surprised if a super-aggro pulls this move with: -a naked 9 -heart-flush draw -spade-flush draw -A/T (maybe) -T/9 (maybe)
Hey Bart I notice you always ask for effective stacks, but I think it would behoove of us to know what the *actual* stack sizes are too. They may be 1500 effective in a 2/5 game but if villain or hero is sitting on 7k that goes a long way into our image.
@@brickcitybeatdown Nah, he's a busy guy and im sure his YT inbox has hundreds of replies every day, he cant reply to them all, just hopefully he takes notice and implements.
I'm either checking or betting 1/2-2/3 pot on the turn. The pot sized bet is just too much with that board. Did he have J,9 suited? I think if he had J,9 of hearts he would have raised the flop. That's pretty sick if he called pre-flop with J,9 offsuit.
Yes it’s an important detail they glossed over. Perhaps hero was too stunned to notice. I’m assuming it was J9 of diamonds, and not hearts, considering most players overplay their open-ended straight flush draws on the flop. If it was J9 off-suit then it should change our view of the villain completely. Lastly, if hero didn’t notice which J9 it was, then he needs to work on gathering all details in showdowns he is involved in, and not involved in; as it’s an important tool in ranging/tagging our opponents.
Something to consider vs strong players is that they will try to balance their checkback ranges with nutted hands precisely on boards like this. I could easily see V with a flopped set checking back here because Hero's range is going to be value betting a lot of turns regardless of the runnout.
I think you very overestimate 2/5 players and their ability to play multiway. Almost all of the biggest non-cooler hands I've lost in recent memory have involved a player calling a flop bet with a hand they absolutely shouldn't given that someone else had already called or someone else was still behind them. Like AQ versus 6s5s on Q76 no spade out of position with a player behind who hasn't acted or QQ versus Qc4c on the button on 943 no club after cutoff already called a large flop bet. Binking trips on the turn when I didn't think they'd very often have just a pair was a killer, because you're right that they shouldn't have just a small pair. It's like the only thing they can remember about poker is that some dude once told them it's hard to make a pair and they run with it. Point being, a lot of the hands you ignore or discount cause they SHOULD fold flop are almost certainly still present on the turn.
I agree with this especially with small sizing on the flop I think a lot of people are just like "oh good price yeah keep it running" and don't give any consideration to person behind them. That price was so sweet to continue if you had even a slice of the flop and can likely improve. I didn't rule out 87 at all here
65 could also be the case idk why you say he shouldnt have it? On the button already having commited someting in the pot imo a clear call. Then picking up equity with a gutshot and just calling a small c-bet with inmense implied odds. No offense to hero its hard to laying down jacks when you still have an overpair and double blocking the nuts. Jacks is such a overrated hand😂
Villain can have 65 of hearts OR spades indeed. I thought the hand Bart said V shouldn’t have is 87. Which to Bart’s surprise, I can see a lot of V’s calling hero’s 1/3rd size flop bet with 78 suited, even with a player to act behind. In live poker, people play pretty loosely on the flop, even with players to act behind.
You can play this a bunch of different ways but it seems like you get here no matter how its played, he will call bigger flop bet, if you check turn he probably bets $250 or so and you call, then maybe if you check river he bets half pot and you call and save a little bit but most of your stack is gone, just so hard with both J blockers I think honestly AA-QQ is an easier fold
MDF says to fold, pretty clearly. But that's not the real problem here, I see the real problem as two-fold. First, having no big-picture strategy to pick a betting line across multiple streets, that will help him with any big decision. Or if you say he did have a big-picture plan, that plan only makes sense if he treats the shove as having intentionally paid extra on the turn to see where he's at, and folding. Second, and I don't know if it is more important or less important than the above, is how suicidal it is over the long term to give someone 27 to 1 implied odds on the flop by calling off a shove after they hit. The flop bet offered zero protection against even a gutshot if you're going to pay them off fully. It offers some protection if you fold on later aggression, but it also invites later aggression, so opens you to being bluffed more than usual. Obviously a good draw to the nuts can call a bigger flop bet, or one from someone who is less likely to fully pay off. But the tighter you get about paying off, the wider the range of draws that it's incorrect for villain to chase with on the flop. You need to size your protection bets with your own tendencies/leaks about paying off shoves, in mind. You need to ask yourself "Is this a sensible place for a random bluff shove, giving me 2 to 1 to call, after I just bet 5x as much on turn as on flop?" As for "double blocking the nuts", it cuts the combos in half, it doesn't make it exponentially more unlikely he has J9 or J9s. J9 goes from 16 combos to 8, and J9s goes from 4 combos to 2. That means that it is as likely you were not helped by the "double blocking" as that you were helped. Therefore, if the "double blockers" floating around in your mind, make you pay him off twice as often or twice as much, you'd have been better off not even considering blockers.
Blockers still don’t eliminate the possibility of someone having one of your outs to make their hand. The language around blockers is way too absolute. Villain is getting max value from their hand. A blocker bet would be more fitting, instead of trying to take control of the betting. A person who has a hand is typically going to raise a blocker bet, so you still lose money, you just lose less of it. Some hands you just have to play to either win the minimum or lose the minimum. You’re not going to get full value from every hand that makes it to the turn/river.
When hero bets pot on turn, and villain decides to jam - that is a ton of information. 90-95% of villains in live poker are not jamming on the turn (against this specific action) unless they have a better hand than JJ on that board.
preflop how did "one of the limpers call" if it was only the button and the bb who called the heros open? if hero is in MP both the button and bb havent acted yet, which is probably why bart said "so the limpers got out of the way?" not sure if this is addressed later in the video lol
I actually really don’t love his jam tbh. I don’t know why he would want to negate his positional advantage just because there double fd on board. I think only one would make thing uncomfortable spades don’t seem super relevant if anything i think he has more spades then our hero. So I don’t exactly love it. I think our hero played this fine I don’t think he needed to go full pot turn & I would have probably bet 50-65% on this flop. Because I think we have less c bets on that board.
Yeah it was awful. He got absurdly lucky to get called, honestly. I think this is basically the only hand besides TT or 88 that hero calls with, since JJ is so much better here than QQ-AA and he still could easily have folded.
Villain may have known hero's tendency to overvalue an overpair. Or he might just have a strong preference for getting money in when he's ahead. Taking down the $600+ right there would not be a bad result considering that half the deck becomes a river scare card for a turned straight. From villain's perspective, this could easily turn out to be a hand where he's only ahead on one street. That makes it a great time to get the money in or get a fold.
@@EfficientRVer it sounds like you play scared poker. The hero is never connecting with half the deck, you're just going with it on every river anyway.
There's arguments for making the call with the properties of the caller's hand but the key takeaway is that even with all the blocker/board considerations this is just a fold against the general player pool. Aggression after a pot sized turn bet which is fairly large in absolute value for the game is the villian announcing that they have it.
Hey Bart, long time fan pre youtube: I feel like this comment borderline contradicts the general vibe around the feedback you gave the player in the call towards the end of the video, is it possible if they think this is correct they could continue to make these sort of plays or do you think they understood this is a 100% fold by the end of the call
Thanks
I think it was a big mistake not discussing whether or not the villain is playing J-9 off. If the villain folds J-9 off preflop, this isn't a bad call. But if the villain is playing J-9 off, then there are so many more combos of value that this is a fold.
I think this is just a Cooler, plain and simple. Yes, it's probably a snap-fold in Tourney play, but at $1/$2, $2/$5 you shouldn't be surprised if a super-aggro pulls this move with:
-a naked 9
-heart-flush draw
-spade-flush draw
-A/T (maybe)
-T/9 (maybe)
Aren't AA-QQ an easier fold you block nothing and can't make the straight
I love your daily videos Bart.. Thanks for teaching me So Much and bringing thoughtful poker hands to life...
Hey Bart I notice you always ask for effective stacks, but I think it would behoove of us to know what the *actual* stack sizes are too. They may be 1500 effective in a 2/5 game but if villain or hero is sitting on 7k that goes a long way into our image.
Maybe a little parenthesis after that says V or H so we know if villain or hero is effective
good comment
He has 9-10
He won't answer. He's too good for his fans/followers/subscribers
@@brickcitybeatdown Nah, he's a busy guy and im sure his YT inbox has hundreds of replies every day, he cant reply to them all, just hopefully he takes notice and implements.
I'm either checking or betting 1/2-2/3 pot on the turn. The pot sized bet is just too much with that board. Did he have J,9 suited? I think if he had J,9 of hearts he would have raised the flop. That's pretty sick if he called pre-flop with J,9 offsuit.
J9 suited is definitely in his calling range
Yes it’s an important detail they glossed over. Perhaps hero was too stunned to notice. I’m assuming it was J9 of diamonds, and not hearts, considering most players overplay their open-ended straight flush draws on the flop. If it was J9 off-suit then it should change our view of the villain completely. Lastly, if hero didn’t notice which J9 it was, then he needs to work on gathering all details in showdowns he is involved in, and not involved in; as it’s an important tool in ranging/tagging our opponents.
J9 - my favourite hand! 😁
Something to consider vs strong players is that they will try to balance their checkback ranges with nutted hands precisely on boards like this. I could easily see V with a flopped set checking back here because Hero's range is going to be value betting a lot of turns regardless of the runnout.
I’m still getting stack on a good amount of rivers, but I definitely think I’m checking this turn
I think you very overestimate 2/5 players and their ability to play multiway. Almost all of the biggest non-cooler hands I've lost in recent memory have involved a player calling a flop bet with a hand they absolutely shouldn't given that someone else had already called or someone else was still behind them. Like AQ versus 6s5s on Q76 no spade out of position with a player behind who hasn't acted or QQ versus Qc4c on the button on 943 no club after cutoff already called a large flop bet. Binking trips on the turn when I didn't think they'd very often have just a pair was a killer, because you're right that they shouldn't have just a small pair. It's like the only thing they can remember about poker is that some dude once told them it's hard to make a pair and they run with it.
Point being, a lot of the hands you ignore or discount cause they SHOULD fold flop are almost certainly still present on the turn.
I agree with this especially with small sizing on the flop I think a lot of people are just like "oh good price yeah keep it running" and don't give any consideration to person behind them. That price was so sweet to continue if you had even a slice of the flop and can likely improve. I didn't rule out 87 at all here
Did the villain have J9h or J9d? I'd like to know if villain had straight flush draw.
Jh9h would have been mentioned if he had it. The real question is, was he even suited?
@@EfficientRVer I was assuming a solid player would only be in the hand with J9 if it was suited.
I would guess diamonds
65 could also be the case idk why you say he shouldnt have it? On the button already having commited someting in the pot imo a clear call. Then picking up equity with a gutshot and just calling a small c-bet with inmense implied odds. No offense to hero its hard to laying down jacks when you still have an overpair and double blocking the nuts. Jacks is such a overrated hand😂
Villain can have 65 of hearts OR spades indeed. I thought the hand Bart said V shouldn’t have is 87. Which to Bart’s surprise, I can see a lot of V’s calling hero’s 1/3rd size flop bet with 78 suited, even with a player to act behind. In live poker, people play pretty loosely on the flop, even with players to act behind.
You can play this a bunch of different ways but it seems like you get here no matter how its played, he will call bigger flop bet, if you check turn he probably bets $250 or so and you call, then maybe if you check river he bets half pot and you call and save a little bit but most of your stack is gone, just so hard with both J blockers I think honestly AA-QQ is an easier fold
I didn't know Cherokee allowed the button straddle -- is that new(ish)?
the action killing Button Straddle? All for any other straddle. the button straddle is dumb in low stakes.
Cherokee allows both button and UTG
MDF says to fold, pretty clearly. But that's not the real problem here, I see the real problem as two-fold. First, having no big-picture strategy to pick a betting line across multiple streets, that will help him with any big decision. Or if you say he did have a big-picture plan, that plan only makes sense if he treats the shove as having intentionally paid extra on the turn to see where he's at, and folding.
Second, and I don't know if it is more important or less important than the above, is how suicidal it is over the long term to give someone 27 to 1 implied odds on the flop by calling off a shove after they hit. The flop bet offered zero protection against even a gutshot if you're going to pay them off fully. It offers some protection if you fold on later aggression, but it also invites later aggression, so opens you to being bluffed more than usual.
Obviously a good draw to the nuts can call a bigger flop bet, or one from someone who is less likely to fully pay off. But the tighter you get about paying off, the wider the range of draws that it's incorrect for villain to chase with on the flop.
You need to size your protection bets with your own tendencies/leaks about paying off shoves, in mind.
You need to ask yourself "Is this a sensible place for a random bluff shove, giving me 2 to 1 to call, after I just bet 5x as much on turn as on flop?"
As for "double blocking the nuts", it cuts the combos in half, it doesn't make it exponentially more unlikely he has J9 or J9s. J9 goes from 16 combos to 8, and J9s goes from 4 combos to 2. That means that it is as likely you were not helped by the "double blocking" as that you were helped. Therefore, if the "double blockers" floating around in your mind, make you pay him off twice as often or twice as much, you'd have been better off not even considering blockers.
Good example of how the concept of blockers has changed from reduction of probability to elimination of a holding.
Blockers still don’t eliminate the possibility of someone having one of your outs to make their hand. The language around blockers is way too absolute. Villain is getting max value from their hand. A blocker bet would be more fitting, instead of trying to take control of the betting. A person who has a hand is typically going to raise a blocker bet, so you still lose money, you just lose less of it. Some hands you just have to play to either win the minimum or lose the minimum. You’re not going to get full value from every hand that makes it to the turn/river.
I definitely don't like that turn bet size.
ck and i might nit and fold its just so bad of a card.
When hero bets pot on turn, and villain decides to jam - that is a ton of information. 90-95% of villains in live poker are not jamming on the turn (against this specific action) unless they have a better hand than JJ on that board.
preflop how did "one of the limpers call" if it was only the button and the bb who called the heros open? if hero is in MP both the button and bb havent acted yet, which is probably why bart said "so the limpers got out of the way?"
not sure if this is addressed later in the video lol
nvm
(9:32) 🚂🚂🚂Bart might be able to get on board
🚂🚂 🚂
I thought villain was on a nut heart draw
why is no one considering 65s?
pretty drive their. 20 mi and it takes about an hour.
blockers have the value of backdoor draws...not much
I actually really don’t love his jam tbh. I don’t know why he would want to negate his positional advantage just because there double fd on board. I think only one would make thing uncomfortable spades don’t seem super relevant if anything i think he has more spades then our hero. So I don’t exactly love it. I think our hero played this fine I don’t think he needed to go full pot turn & I would have probably bet 50-65% on this flop. Because I think we have less c bets on that board.
Yeah it was awful. He got absurdly lucky to get called, honestly. I think this is basically the only hand besides TT or 88 that hero calls with, since JJ is so much better here than QQ-AA and he still could easily have folded.
It's not really about being scared of a hero flush. There's a butt load of river scare cards that an overpair might not want to pay off on.
Villain may have known hero's tendency to overvalue an overpair. Or he might just have a strong preference for getting money in when he's ahead. Taking down the $600+ right there would not be a bad result considering that half the deck becomes a river scare card for a turned straight. From villain's perspective, this could easily turn out to be a hand where he's only ahead on one street. That makes it a great time to get the money in or get a fold.
@@EfficientRVer it sounds like you play scared poker. The hero is never connecting with half the deck, you're just going with it on every river anyway.
Would have put him on 97hh
never a call
Such a bad turn bet and sizing, vs a capable opponent
2/5/10 and people are still limping?
Why is that a surprise?
10/20 people are still limping nerd!
Blockers are overrated
There is no correct way to play Jiggities