Blackthorne Draws Lord Toranaga a Map of the World - Scene | Shōgun | FX
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 6 มี.ค. 2024
- Toranaga asks Blackthorne to draw a map of the world as he knows it, revealing new secrets that could threaten Japan. FX’s Shōgun is now streaming on Hulu.
Shōgun, Episode 2.
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#Shogun #FX
Based on James Clavell’s novel, FX’s Shōgun is set in Japan in the year 1600 at the dawn of a century-defining civil war. Lord Yoshii Toranaga is fighting for his life as his enemies on the Council of Regents unite against him, when a mysterious European ship is found marooned in a nearby fishing village.
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Blackthorne Draws Lord Toranaga a Map of the World - Scene | Shōgun | FX
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Can Toranaga and Blackthorne work together?
If fx was smart they would post the first ep free on TH-cam. Shows a banger , but is not being marketed well enough.
Obviously yes. They are men of actions.
@@kamikazeekobra7187Agree, highly underrated.
fx, you need to do something for marketing. It is almost unknown.
First episode on youtube would be a really good idea.
Yes he named him partner in the latest episode.
AMAZING ACTORS. I want to c a season 2 FX
I love how much of this scene's tension is entirely based on the need for a translator, and the not-so-subtle influence she has when she decides how to interpret his words.
Back then, a translator held ALL the power to influence each side. Even just one word change or framing it in a certain tone can change everything.
Yeah it's a great choice to have both subtitles and the translation - adds layers to every scene.
Well put. Although Toranaga was easily wise enough to understand that any translator, even Mariko, might be putting their own spin on things.
"MOAR INTENSITY!"
"It seems like he said a lot more than that..."
The correct word would be interpreter, a translator would be someone that says word for word, as you say "not so subtle interpretation" she obviously is not translating she is editorializing and paraphrasing horribly.
He's referring to the the Treaty of Zaragoza signed in 1529 for those interested.
Is it not the Treaty of Tordesillas?
@@furryfury. Tordesillas defined the western border of Portugal's claims, Zaragoza defined the eastern.
I'm surprised the British remained allies with the Portuguese after that treaty. Likely Lisbon had to do a lot of diplomatic assurances to London that they would allow the British their choice.
@@stormwolf8770 Britain wasn’t a thing yet, Portugal was allied with England. And the English couldn’t do much in 1529; European Colonialism was fully spearheaded by the Portuguese and the Spanish at that time
Both treaties tordesillas and zaragoza are mentioned btw. He drew both divisory lines from those treaties.
I like how he clarifies "Yes they really are THAT arrogant.".
"I'm _English,_ and even *I* think that's a big ego."
Bit of historical context for those not familiar with European history: Spain and Portugal have tried to replace the protestant English kings and queens with catholic rulers at various points in history.
And we kicked their arses for trying every time.@@JohnDoe-vm5rb
@@JohnDoe-vm5rbThis is half the reason for witch trials. The king was paranoid as hell that Papists (agents of the Pope or Catholic crowns) were out to get him and sabotage his nation, and they worked with witches and devils. He was justified because their continental & colonial rivals obviously have a history, plus the little ice age, various epidemics, and such all seem pretty evil.
@@JohnDoe-vm5rb as in turn (or rather before, during and after) the English rulers tried to dethrone various European rulers, not least in the form of the 100-years war. Details, details.
Toranaga : would you lose?
Blackthorne : Nah I’d win
I knew someone would do it, I just did not know when lmao
Just make sure he don't end up in 2 pieces.
Oh hell yeah 😂. I knew someone would do the meme
*insert gojo pic here*
@@unaminous00 🫡😂😂
This is a great show so far. I love the slight smirk by Toranaga when Blackthorne says “Unless I win”.
A man of courage. Heck even I let out a smirk when he said that 😅
I remember the line differently from the book. Blackthorne was pilot on a Dutch ship and was explaining how the infant nation of the Netherlands revolted against their Spanish overlords. Toronaga says there is no justification for rebellion against your leige lord, and Blackthorne answers, "Unless you win."
@@lieutenantkettch I haven’t read the book and I’m sure there will be a lot of stuff that’s different. I’m curious to see what fans of the book think after all the episodes have released.
@@lieutenantkettch That is a very unfortunate omission, because it dares us to think of the unthinkable, which is about the stage we are approaching in this world.
Smirk, or faint smile of appreciation? I say the latter. Toronaga valued courage and was not one to leap to conclusions.
"Did he really say "belongs"?" Chills! Such an amazing show!
Incredible scene.
Crazy to see their first reaction to colonialism. They ain't seen nothing yet lol
@@funfunfun3624Japanese later themselves became colonizers. The irony.
@@funfunfun3624you are saying like the japanese never tried to do that
@@damirturakbayev5215 There is a sense of foreshadowing you can even feel from Toranaga here. Simultaneously baffled, outraged, but intrigued.
"Why not just split the heavens between ourselves and China?"
"Be silent!"
This 5 min scene was when I knew this show went from "this is going to be a good show" to "this show will be legendary".
It doesn't make sense. "Don't war...you are outnumbered and will lose!" "Not if I win."
The book and miniseries are the right approach.
"To rebel against your lawful lord is unpardonable."
"but...there are mitigating circumstances."
"When it comes to rebellion, there are no mitigating circumstances!"
"There is...if you win."
"Hahahahaha...yes, you have named the one mitigating circumstance."
th-cam.com/video/dN_sAi8dNUE/w-d-xo.html
@@brianpeck4035 yeah, the book had more of a "vae victis" vibe.
In the tv show it sounds more like overconfidence.
@@brianpeck4035I think it's fine because they've made only one season which is a shame cuz they could've stretched it out into at least 16 episodes
@@brianpeck4035 yes, so much better in the book!
@@Darkstar_Dayne but they don't do that anymore, it pump and dump, cut a run..
This is based on a real conversation held between Tokugawa Ieyasu and the English navigator William Adams. It led to the Tokugawa Shogunate aligning with the English and the Dutch against the Spanish and Portuguese.
Traitors.
@@PROVOCATEURSKA nation that successfully fought against colonizers.
@@h.a.9880 And later managed to become the colonizers they so detested.
@@holysword876Yes. And?
@h.a.9880
As if conquering countries never happened before this time. I guess Greece, Rome , Mongolia , etc never existed
The Portuguese replacing governments with Catholic ones suddenly scares the crap out of Toranaga, because he is smart enough to realize that they're already halfway there. Two of the five regents are Catholics. They're forcing him out, which means soon the government would be half Catholic. He was worried about Ishido and even trying to get the Catholic regents to turn against him, but in this moment I don't think he's thinking about Ishido anymore. He's realizing that Portugal is the real enemy of Japan.
In real history (remember this is a historical Fiction) the Treaty between Portugal and Spain regarding Asia is due to the dispute in the Mollucas not Japan so consider this as Blackthorne bias and Protestant perspective on the Jesuits and the Catholic activity in East Asia.
Not exactly, despite catholic influence, both Portugal and where guests in Japan, the Japanese had enough authority to kick them out if they so choose, witch actually relly happened with the help pf dutch...
@@lettuceman9439 where the dispute was is immaterial. Rome believeS itself to be the true inheritor and ruler of the world, and at the time it carved the world up between Spain and Portugal. This is especially noticeable in South America where Brazil is the only portagee speaking nation. There is no bias needed from Anjin when plain old facts will do.
@@Filipe8775you can't say Japan had the authority if it needed outside help.
@@lettuceman9439 While yes, there is some Blackthorne bias... the Portuguese and Spanish made that Treaty of Tordesillas, set up by the Pope, to split up the world in half between them. Whatever the reasoning behind it doesn't really matter. Yeah the Protestants would be upset about it, but hearing about that treaty would def infuriate the Japanese whether or not Blackthorne tried making them feel that way. Toranaga isn't such a simpleton that Blackthorne is able to trick him with a lie, rather Blackthorne knows a truth that Toranaga doesn't know and just informs him about it.
This scene is amazing. No fighting, no special effects, no over the top action, just strong dialogue, subtle eerie music, and incredible performances from all cast. Absolutely loving this show
Don’t forget..no charcoal briquettes
@@JohnSmith-nr3sr No cell phones.
Just people living their lives.
@@JohnSmith-nr3sr casual racist
@@JohnSmith-nr3srWhat do you mean by that?
agreed! This is what made early seasons of GameOfThrones so amazing too - smart, tense, well-acted dialogue
Me installing Shogun 2 again
and also the game nobunaga's ambition
CK3 with the Japanese Mod is based.
th-cam.com/video/WXwculMDkLg/w-d-xo.html
I’m installing ghost of Tsushima
Our men are running from the battle. A shamefur dispray!!
No but fr I did exactly that after watching episode 3 and I’m 50 turns into an Ikko Ikki campaign already lol
I actually liked the original series take on that line better. Toranaga was informed that England supported the Netherlands in their rebellion for independence against Spain and Toranaga said to Blackthorne, that there was no mitigating circumstances for rebelling against your sovereign lord. To which Blackthorne replied "unless you win", which Toranaga agreed with a smile.
Except that doesn't really reveal much about Toranaga's character or intentions. In the new version, he asks the question because he wants to see how Blackthorne would respond to a scenario where he (like Toranaga himself) is seemingly outmatched and outnumbered. Toranaga wants to see if Blackthorne has the same or similar mindset of flipping the board.
@@boxtearsI agree wholeheartedly with you on Toranaga's thoughts and I should probably have elaborated on the former scene a bit more. After Blackthorne's reply "unless you win", Toranaga asks him directly "will you win" and Blackthorn replies "Yes, we will win".
@@pharol th-cam.com/video/dN_sAi8dNUE/w-d-xo.html
I agree. I've read Shogun several times now and when Toranaga says that treason and rebellion can never be forgiven and Blackthorne says "Unless we win" not only makes Toranaga like Blackthorne but also gives an insight into his true motives: to overturn the established order and become Shogun.
@@argustuft2394 I gotta say. Seeing the old, creased book I found and read one day in my grandfather's study as a teen turn into a TV show is a surreal experience XD
Blackthorne really be like "Nah, I'd win."
Prevailing despite the terrible odds is pretty much how much of History is made.
Edit: Before anyone weaponizes their keyboards, I am aware this is historical fiction from a novel.
@@SplendidFactor No, you are right., Willliam Adams (Represented by John Blackthorne)was officially recruited to combat against What was seen as the existential threat of the infestation of Catholicism. He built ships of Western-style for the Shogun And was seen as an indispensable source for Preparation using and defending against Western military tactics.
As an individual, he had an Incredibly large influence on Japanese history comparatively with any other foreign individual( In the region that he lived, they still have a celebration festival every year in his honour), especially when you consider how few people there were in this age compared to the significant but lesser influence of individual Brits and US Entrepreneurs and engineeers on Japan Post industrialisation in the 19th and 20th centuries
As the king of frauds, Ishido opened up domain expansion:impeachment, he forgot 2 crucial things: one is that, you always bet on Toranaga and that Toronaga is the one that left it all behind.
The last thing Ishido hears is "Stand proud, you were strong."
@@ds22342 as the strongest feudal lord, Toranaga, fought the bureucrat -- the custodian of Osaka Castle -- he began to exploit his Anjin. Ishido shrunk back in fear, then Toranaga said, "Sit down Ishido, your collusion was weak."
@@farisanwari777 And therefore toranaga looks John. "You did well Anjin, I will never forget you as long as I live"
“Did he really say ‘BELONGS’”
The shock in his face….can’t imagine what hearing something like that can feel like.
It was perfect. Having what you perceive as a great society, country, etc. being claimed by some unknown power who uses your own people against you, and will not hesitate to replace you? I'd be calling for blood in those times.
@@NickMcIntyre72 Exactly!
I'm sure he does know what it feels like, after all Japan had just tried it with Korea some years before. Oops
Hand-painting a world map on karesansui, which represents water with gravel, is actually excellent.
He did a great job
Shōgun is the best miniseries of this year in my opinion . This show is going to win some Emmy awards , because everything in this show is so well done ⚔️⚔️⚔️⚔️ .
I was hoping this could go on for several seasons, considering the original novels has 6 or 7 books in a series
@@mediterreneanI mean then that would be anthology, they’re all stories on their own
is there a season 2 coming.?
@@kleamat the story itself will be ended with one season only, but since the author of the book created a bunch of books related to Asia so if the studio and show runners are interested they could adapt next book that is also standalone
@@madtitan0825 dammit I'm sad
William Adams (the character Blackthorne is based on) really did push some heavy propaganda against the Catholics because he worked for the Dutch East India Company and the United Provinces were at war with the Hispanic Monarchy and in the end, the Tokugawa favoured the Dutch traders because they weren't interested in proselitism.
That being said, by 1600 the Japanese authorities had already started to distrust the Portuguese after nearly 20 years were several daimyos, Oda Nobunaga included, used the Jesuits to counter the political power of the Buddhist temples. Both Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu were aware of the growing Portuguese presence in Asia and they definitely knew about Macau being a colony, basically because since China banned all trade with Japan (the Ming blamed the Japanese for the growing acts of piracy in their coasts) the Portuguese acted as a middleman between both nations. I mean, "Macau" is literally a Portuguese minstranslation of the name of the island of Aomen. Not just that, but the Philippines were already under the rule of the Spanish and, again, the Japanese knew about it: Hideyoshi even planned to conquer them but he died before he could start his invasion. So having Torenaga (Tokugawa Ieyasu) being this surprised about European colonialism and the Jesuits being used as some sort of subversive force trying to pave the way by converting the population before an imminent invasion seems a bit out of place because at that point he already suspected it. Then there's the fact that even when Blackthorne talks about the "kings of Portugal and Spain" as if they were diferent people, by 1580 (and up to 1640) the king of Spain (or more correctly, Castile and Aragon) was also the king of Portugal.
That's just some small context for those who are interested in the real history, otherwise I'm really liking the series so far.
Good thing it takes place in a slightly different world
@@novusregnum I just wanted to add some context. The novel never tried to be 100% accurate, that's the reason why the characters have different names from their real life counterparts.
In historical fact, not only William Adams, also Jan Joosten and the other Dutch crews helped Ieyasu to realize the true purpose of Catholic power.
Related to that, by 1600 Japanese warfare was already war by massed gunfire and cannons. Japanese gunsmiths had already reverse engineered and improved upon the weapons they bought from the Portugese as well, and were producing their own designs domestically. The primary weapon of a samurai by this point was a gun, even if swords were still used in combat and as class signifiers.
Thank you
I LOVE how they use Hi no Moto instead of Nippon to address Japan, and Min-koku (Ming Kingdom) to address China.
yes, Hinomoto means ‘the land of the Sun’, which is the traditional proper name of Japan in the Japanese language
Since they used Feudal Japanese language (equivalent of Shakesperian English). Using "Hi no moto" is actually accurate
Oda Nobunaga was popular then
yet they still used "Supein" for Spain which is an obvious loanword from English. Since the Spanish arrived to Japan before the English, and Spain in Spanish would be "Espana" or at least "Castilla", then I think the first name of Spain in Japanese should be something from the Spanish language, not from English.
*Ming Empire
that subtle yet significant smile on Toranagas face "unless I win"
1st 3 episodes so far amazing, I would binge watch all 10 if I could, all feel too short :)
I’ve been watching all 3 episodes over and over lol.
Yeah I love that little smile. I think it's where Toranaga realises Blackthorn is just like him - prevailing against impossible odds through sheer audacity.
Agreed. Usually i would be bored in dialogue parts of some series. But this......... i don't know. I just feel.......... even the topic in interesting
Get ready for episode 4, and don’t forget to bring lots of strawberry jam!
@@AzpecTProductionzEpisode 5 is out Tuesday this week.
I love how Mariko turns "To vanquish our common enemies" into "To enlist you against his enemies."
It's a subtle but important mistranslation, and because she's accurately translated other things that clearly upset her, neither one has any reason to think she's worded this to slightly weigh it in favour of the Portuguese, and she did it effortlessly and quickly. It reminds you of just how sharp and dangerous Mariko could be if she weren't totally loyal to Toranaga.
She wouldn't be wrong to suspect John of harbouring ill intentions against the Portuguese. His whole reason for coming to Japan was to help the Protestant English and Dutch break their trade monopoly.
On the other hand, the Portuguese and Spanish _did_ have ill intentions themselves, and John had the Treaty of Zaragoza to flaunt as proof.
Even back then, translators very highly valued. One wrong translation could mean a full genocidal war, or doom a country's army to die a dog's death in a foreseeable trap.
I think that Mariko San had been taught different languages by the Jesuits ? It was stated, in the book, that Mariko could speak Japanese, Portuguese, Spanish and Latin ... ( described as the secret language of the Priests )... But, certainly, she was very, very intelligent...
I’ve thought about this a bit, because it stood out to me and I wasn’t sure why. Like it was obviously intentional, and yet I ironically feel like Mariko’s interpretation was accurate. Blackthorne’s statement was somewhat romanticized and Mariko doesn’t necessarily have to agree with that partial framing, if we’re being completely real, what Blackthorne wants is Toranaga’s help. Though you’re right it’s not exactly what he said, in a weird way I think it actually confirms Mariko’s integrity. I don’t think a lot of people will agree with me, though, because I’m aware that looking at it this way is kind of perplexing and paradoxical, and there’s just not a lot to go on. It's just sort of the vibe I'm getting I guess. Like personally I kind of love characters that have to navigate a bunch of competing responsibilities or allegiances with awareness and integrity, and that's what I feel like I'm getting from her so far.
@@mb7626 I quite agree, on the contrary. Mariko correctly assessed that John was trying to sow discord between Toranaga and the Portuguese on purpose. So, that line isn't so much a mistranslation as it is her advising Toranaga on what John is trying to do.
This scene was really good, but I prefer the version from the novel. Blackthorne is telling Toranga about how the Dutch threw off Spanish rule:
Toranaga: “Your allies perpetrated a revolution against their legal rulers?”
Blackthorne: “Yes, but there were mitigating circumstances.”
Toranaga: “No! There are no mitigating circumstances to justify defying your rightful lords!”
Blackthorn: “Unless you win.”
Toranaga pauses, thinks a moment, the laughs.
“Indeed, Anjin-san. You have named the ONE mitigating circumstance!”
Yep, Toranaga knew the reality of History:
THE WINNERS WRITE IT!
That's an incredible historical description.
Of course,Toranaga（Ieyasu）was a typical Feudal Daimyo,so he must have disagreed with a Revolution.
However,He lived in Sengoku era and served Taiko（Hideyoshi）who was born as a farmer.
He also knew that Revolution is justified unless they are defeated.
of course the writing could've been better since the Spanish were never the "rightful rulers' of the Dutch.
I was thinking the same! Good scene, but the original is way better
The show's scene is better than the novel because it reveals more about Toranaga himself when facing unfavorable odds. Definitely the superior version.
You don't always need flashy CGI or epic fight scenes to draw people in. Sometimes good dialogue is all it takes.
literally this show could just be dialogue after dialogue and i would be riveted. the action/gore scenes are just kind of the cherry on top
@@abc92800oh how I missed that from early Game of Thrones seasons
The absolutely killer music contributes greatly to the effect.
Plus, this is a fictionalisation of real events that occurred in history. Us folks, nearly half a millennium later have a sense of the gravity of a moment, considering the things that came later from it.
@@abc92800 I just love Toronaga's facial expressions when Blackthorne tells him what the Portuguese are planning. He's shocked, angry, curious and intrigued all at once.
Anything with Hiroyuki in it is a must watch for me.
Depends on the show/movie. Also this show seems to be building up to big action. Also nothing wrong with an action flick. Why does it have to be one thing all the time.
It is so awesome how she doesn't accuse him of lying until he admits the Catholics churches involvement in all of this. It really shows her faith was her most coveted belief above all the other things he had just mentioned. It wasn't until he made her literally question her own belief. Such amazing writing.
it also puts her in danger as a catholic - should Japan turn against people of her faith, where would that place her?
None of this questions her faith. The church as an institution and the rulers of nations did not, and still dont, always represent the essence of christianity. Just like groups that claim to have naother faith are not always acting like they should. Look at the japanese in this story....buddhism doesnt support the killing of children because of hurt honor I guess either.
@@calistafalcontail Bro the Japanese Catholics were literally slaughtered into hiding and compelled to blasphemy what are you on about?
This butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
I wish they had kept this scene the same as in the book, the answer "Unless I win" was in response to a different question. Toranaga wanted to know if rebellion against one's lord is ever lawful. (If I remember correctly Toranaga had found out about the Protestant Reformation and that not all Christians were subject to the Pope). Blackthorne replies something like "It is lawful if you win."
That's pretty substantial, thanks for thr info. I guess that the showrunner wanted to emphasize Blackthorne's plucky side rather than his pragmatism. A bit corny, the series' version felt more like an action hero's answer rather than a schemer.
I completely agree, all foreshadowing got lost
Yes, Toranaga stated to Blackthorne that... Rebellion is NEVER lawful.... Blackthorne had to be very careful with his reply ( Because, if he gave a bad reply to Toranaga, then Blackthorne would have been beheaded INSTANTLY... ) So he thought for a minute, and then said... " It is lawful... if you win ! "... There was silence in the courtyard, then, Toranaga laughed, as he ( Toranaga ) realised that it was the ONLY possible answer, that was perfectly correct !
It was in reference to the Dutch provinces being in rebellion against the crown of Spain, which lay claim to them. Blackthorne explained that he worked for the Dutch and the current politics of Europe, and Toranaga outwardly disapproved of rebelling against one's liege lord. The way he responded to Blackthorne's answer is some really good foreshadowing in the book.
Yeah, it was basically the same in the 1980 version, which I watched last year. This version condenses plot details in some respects.
The actor for Blackthorne has such a great voice.
IKR! I love it SO much!
@@paharipant2 And it sounds so perfect and good for the role!
I'm trying to figure out who his voice reminds me of. The best I've got so far is a young Tom Hardy but even that's not quite right.
@@phenom568 lol it sounds absolutely NOTHING like “tom hardy” in ANY way, young or otherwise. He sounds like a upper class posh sophisticated gentleman who also speaks in a vulgar way and with a “by the streets” understanding of people of his time! Which makes it fantastic to hear him talk and act as he’s so much fun!
The actress really nailed it with both voice and expression, really amazing work here!
Perhaps the most important scene of the series, since the realization of such knowledge kept in secrecy by the westerners is what set Lord Toranaga & Blackthorne on their common path. Amazing remake 💥💥 a 10 out of 10 so far 🙏
Agree, the '80s miniseries made a particular point of showing the consternation of the Portuguese on fielding questions about the treaty of Zaragosa from Toranaga. Right in line too with history as it was Tokugawa Ieyasu who ended the Portuguese presence in Japan.
This butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
That smirk from Toranaga at the end. Perfect
I love how one guy said "Why not split the heavens between us and China" like its so absurd that Spain and Portugal would split the world in half like they own it
europeans have never had a shortage of audacity
@@chance1774 skill diff
I don’t know if you’ve checked your map recently, but half of it does speak Spanish lmao
@@marcoslopez127 which half?
@@shivamarya5225 Check your map and get back to me. There is a whole hemisphere. lmao
Such an incredible scene. It's so impressive how easily you can read both Toranaga and Mariko's facial expressions despite how tightly they kept their reactions sealed. Toranagas smirk at the end speaks volumes about the respect he's slowly getting for Blackthorne. Absolutely in love with this show!!
Oh.. my.. god. for the first time, since HBO's Rome, I am excited for a historical film/ series - can't wait to start watching
This butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
Yeah the Vikings show, which History Channel heavily bastardized, just aint it.
This is a very powerful scene. I remember the relevant scene in the 80's series and the tension was nowhere near this one... This is a masterpiece in the making.
This butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
This is Treaty of Zaragoza between Spain and Portugal in real history 1529.
Not the the treaty of Tordesillas of 1494?
@@TsunrockyThat treaty was signed before the circumnavigation of the world was accomplished in 1522. It didn't set the limit on how far the Spanish could claim on the other side of the world which is on the Asian side of the Pacific. Hence the two lines. Tordesillas only set one line in the Americas. The other line is set by Zaragoza.
@@Tsunrocky The two countries did not agree about the opposite far east side of the earth in Treaty of Tordesillas. So they had an agreement about it in Zaragoza 1529.
@@kou1h Yes, we must remember that the Tordesillas Treaty was only to set the Demarcation Line from the North Pole, through the Atlantic Ocean, to the South Pole... They did NOT know what was on the other side of the globe, and it took the Magellan expedition to confirm the size of the Earth, and the size of the Pacific Ocean... Once that was confirmed in 1521, it was possible to establish the Demarcation Line from the North Pole, through the Pacific Ocean, to the South Pole.... The Zaragoza Treaty confirmed that the Spice Islands and Japan were in the Portuguese half....
@@mad_max21 Absolutely correct...The Pope set the original Line of Demarcation ( which ran from the North Pole, through the Atlantic Ocean, down to the South Pole .... ONLY )... The following year, Portugal asked for the Line to be moved Westwards a little... So Spain and Portugal signed the Treaty, at the town of Tordesillas...Much later, the Treaty signed at the town of Zaragoza, set the Anti meridian, from the North Pole, through the Pacific Ocean, down to the South Pole....
The high point of this scene is Toronaga's subtle smile after Mariko translated "Unless I win".
Toronaga now realize that fate has brought him an unlikely, but powerful potential ally. This is the point where the new era begins.
The era of the Toronaga Shogunate.
This butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
I think what makes this scene especially nice (including the great line at the end) is that you can put yourself in the shoes of someone like Mariko, who spent her life believing in a god and a religion that can elevate people above the savagery they can do to each other. Only to discover that the priests are as corrupt as anyone, using religion to control rather than to liberate.
You can see her face ever, EVER so subtly change when she reads his face and realizes he is telling the truth. She is an exceptional actress that the movement is so subtle that one could miss it. But it's there, and it's jarring to look at to realize what she's coming to understand. One will wonder where her character will go from here.
And throughout the old testament, God was furious with the priests because they had become hypocrites and liars, and when Jesus came, His biggest enemies were the hypocrite Pharisees and Saducees, and the new testament says there will be the same, and many modern churches are abominable horrible farces as well.
But it wasn't Jesus's idea.
The action of those priests have nothing to do with the essence of the religion though. The church as an institution, just like other institutions led by humans, does not always represent the religion itself. God doesnt change because of them. There is no need to drop faith because flawed humans mess up and fall for a few of the deadly sins...greed and lust for power for example. They abuse religion and everything can be abused. Jesus would have whopped all of their butts. They were no real christians and still today, I am the first to call out people in power who twist things for their own gain but act like they work in the name of God.
This butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
"Unless I win" would be right at home with the best Spartan one-liners
If...
@charliewatts6895 and he did. Out World is shapped by these words
@@gentlebabarian Nah, he's referring to the Spartans answering Phillip II's threat that "if the Macedonian army comes to their city, they will burn it to the ground and so on." Their response was "If".
This butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
He pulled the Spartan response.
No Spartans in this. Leave those boy lovers out of this, just cause 300 made it look like the Spartans were all British😂
@@Love1isall OP is referring to the video game Halo, not the Greek Spartans which are depicted in the movie "300"
@@tiborpandza8530No, it's a reference to the real Spartans and their use of Laconic phrases: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconic_phrase
Blackthorne's answer is a classic laconic phrase.
@@Love1isallThose "boy lovers" would eat you alive. Americans really have a habit of disrespecting their superiors
"If." ~Sparta
One of my favoruite scenes! The plot got so much more interesting!
Same
Agreed... I liked from 0:55 to 0:60 where he shows the map of the known world and the route via the ' top secret ' Pass of Magellan....
This butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
@@Grasslander JESUS CHRIST how many times did you copy paste this and then like your own comment hahaha
I love that ever slight smile Toranaga has at the end. Hiroyuki Sanada is such a great actor
He recognises an old Japanese proverb about victory being the excuse for rebellion, even against one's own lord.
I'm Portuguese and you can certainly feel the tension in this scene, the acting is top notch, to be completely honest, from my Portuguese perspective, seeing Lord Toranaga and the Japanese getting nervous and stressed made me feel empathetic towards them. I mean if we think about it, at that point in time we didn't know too much about the world as a whole as we do today, aside from the exploration that Portugal and Spain were carrying out, and an isolationist nation getting the word that a foreign nation from the other side of the world, in this case Portugal could lay claim to any land it desired and had established outposts in the region and controlled what came across it, that would indeed be shocking to hear from a Japanese perspective, so this scene, even to me, gets my heart racing, it feels like there's a storm coming from a foreign place they have no real knowledge of, a real clash of cultures, fantastic acting.
And fun fact, Macau, the region that Blackthorne mentioned, was only returned back to China by Portugal in 1999 but I'm sure most of the people who watch the show and read the book are history nerds like me or even more so and know all of these facts 😅
All the best to Japan 🇵🇹🤝🇯🇵
Excelent analysis 🎉
All tribes and peoples have always conquered when they could, and the Japanese certainly weren't upset about that. Just that they didn't want to be conquered themselves. They also tried to conquer Korea, and Iyeasu (who Toranaga is based on) planned to conquer the Philippines, take it from Spain. In the novel, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had all fought in Korea.
I'm not portuguese but I think portuguese weren't worse than others every country or nation had its wars and its conquests Japan and China included and personally I think the citizens of Macau would have preferred to stay with Portugal which is a democracy instead of going back to China and I think the same could be said for the citizens of Honk Kong who would have preferred to remain with the UK.
@@littlemouse7066 yea I agree with you, I mean if we look at the history of human beings and how countries were born/established throughout history, basically every country was forged out of war and blood, every country in my opinion has skeletons in the closet
@@littlemouse7066 cope. there is no more portuguese empire, and there never will be again
When this scene happened I was on the edge of my seat.
When this becomes available for purchase either as a DVD or for online streaming, I will be buying it.
Buy it for DVD. It will last longer and you will actually OWN it. The best time is to do it now as physical media is being killed off.
@@AzpecTProductionz It's ot currently for sale. I will probably have to wait a few months.
Hulu has some good shows on it if you can find it cheap.
For me this very scene is what levelled up the show.
This butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
The cast is out of this world, all 3 deliver a subtle but extremely powerful performance in this scene..
Dude is the sniper from peaky blinders. Thats where I know him from
ahhhhh thought i recognise the face
Also somehwat niche indie singer, by the name of Cosmo Jarvis. I don't know if he's still doing anything muscially wise, but ~12 years ago he was considered quite good in my friends group ;-)
HOLY I did not realise this is Barney.
i thought that the dude from Upgrade until i looked at the cast name.
HOW DID I NOT CATCH THIS. That's why he's so familiar.
Up until this point, the show was good. This scene changed it to great. The audience didn't know up to this point that the Portuguese and Spanish has divided the world and tension it reveals is amazing.
And England's response was "No peace beyond the Line"
Than it means members of the audience did not pay attention in middle/high school, treaties of Tordesillas and Zaragoza shaped colonial game of European powers for over two centuries. I cannot imagine basic history course in any civilised country without an unit on this subject :-)
@@el33ment "it means members of the audience did not pay attention in middle/high school" 50/50, half of them didnt pay attention, the other half doesn't remember any more cuz its not useful in their everyday live, sadly. ( i remember all of it cuz i love history)
@@el33mentYou're vastly overestimating the memory more people are committing to 1600s spanish colonial politics. Even if they learned it in passing, it's not going to be at the forefront of many people's minds.
In the UK, we were never taught anything about Columbus, Cortez, Pizzaro, Magellan, Tordesillas, Zaragoza, etc... All we were taught was about Henry VIII and his six wives, and a little about Elizabeth and the Spanish Armada..... I wonder if other British viewers agree with this ?
This tv series and the movie Dune 2 should win every movie award out there and deservedly so.
Yes, but this scene butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
I had to replay this scene right away - so well written and acted
Yes, but it butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
Best scene of TV I have seen in a very long time.
th-cam.com/video/dN_sAi8dNUE/w-d-xo.html
Yes, but it butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
@@Grasslander Thank you! I noticed and hated the change and wondered why!
Enjoying the show but much prefer the line in the original show which was repurposed here:
Toranaga: "There are no mitigating circumstances when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord"
Blackthorne: "Unless you win"
th-cam.com/video/dN_sAi8dNUE/w-d-xo.html
@@brianpeck4035 Thank you!
Ah, Anjin-san, I bound you to me then. I agree. Everything's right if you win.
Yes, as I wrote elsewhere:
In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
@@Grasslander the line as is presented in the book does not by itself imply that Toranaga approves of imperialism. Only that he agrees that victory can legitimatize rebellion. The Taikos wars in the mainland aren't discussed in the text you quoted, so the assumption it was done to Whitewash the Japanese is spurious based on the evidence you provided.
This clip has made me more interested in checking out Shōgun than any of the other trailers
Before the new Shogun releases,it got me binging all the first version of Shogun,the difference from what i can tell,the first adaptation put all the description,event from the book in the tv show,and bit different presence contrasting to eager Toranaga Mifune version to Sanada hesitant Toranaga potrayal
@@Zero_Tester As a general comment, I think that the group of actors in the 1980 series ( Richard Chamberlain and co. ) seemed to be a better fit for the story... I thought that Damian Thomas as Father Alvito was excellent... But IMO the group of actors in this 2024 version don't seem to be quite as impressive... ( possibly the actor playing Toranaga is very stylish ) but we must wait to see the whole story, before making a final decision... Just my initial opinion...
@@richardruff8712 Yeah but we arent all old farts with fond memories of shows almost fifty years old, try watching stuff that old now, only difference is that it is in color because ww2 era film is same quality lol Cast however legendary said to be, i often find myself dissapointed because every aspect is aged and no it cant match new series/films. Nostalgia
@@KleineJoop People do not have to be old, to remember the 1980 version... Just check it out on YT ( other viewing methods are available ) and maybe younger viewers will be able to make an informed comparison between the 1980 version and the 2024 version... I would like to point out that, first, there was the book ( all 1244 pages of it ! ) which many of us managed to wade through... Then, along came the 1980 series, and it was great to see a reasonably accurate transfer from book to film... ?
I really love the series so far. Thank you!
Though some contexts from the book are altered or shortened, it is a very well done scene. The subtleties of the actors' facial expressions and line deliveries are incredible. I am especially impressed by the acting of Toranaga's and Mariko's actors. This version only shows some glimpses so far of Blackthorne's expertise as a pilot and navigator, but the actor still pulls off Blackthorne's character pretty well.
For those who are curious, when Blackthorne says "Unless I win" in the book, it was said back when Father Alvito was his translator, and it was mainly about whether the Netherlands had the right to rebel against Spain. Here's a snippet for those who are interested.
'Then Toranaga returned to Blackthorne and his voice became even more severe.
“Tsukku-san says that these ‘Dutchlands’- the Netherlands- were vassals of the Spanish king up to a few years ago. Is that true?”
“Yes.”
"Therefore the Netherlands- your allies- are in a state of rebellion against their lawful king?”
“They’re fighting against the Spaniard, yes. But-”
“Isn’t that rebellion? Yes or no?”
“Yes. But there are mitigating circumstances. Serious miti-”
“There are no ‘mitigating circumstances’ when it comes to rebellion against a sovereign lord.”
“Unless you win.”
Toranaga looked intently at him. Then laughed uproariously. He said something to Hiro-matsu through his laughter and Hiro-matsu nodded.
“Yes, Mister Foreigner with the impossible name, yes. You named the one mitigating factor.”
Another chuckle, then the humor vanished as suddenly as it had begun.
“Will you win?”
“Hai.” [Blackthorne said.]'
The dialogue and contexts are changed and rearranged a bit, yet one essential context remains. Blackthorne gets Toranaga thinking that he could succeed in defying Ishido, and that he could indeed win. How does Toranaga win? You shall eventually find out.
That looks in the end , like yeah thats what i wanted to hear
Yes, but it butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
This is the best show on television. It should win every single award that exists.
“Unless I win”
that was preatty badass and also made the japanese daymo smirk
@@shrektheswampless6102 A lot of people say that this scene is more epic in the books. I have to check it out.
Nah I’d win
@@johnnysins9054 you’ve already won, Mr. Sins
This butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
I just love the fact that an Englishman, of all people, points out that the Spanish and the Portugese lay claim to undiscovered land.
I prefer the 80's version. The Treaty of Tordesillas SEEMS arrogant and shameless. But already Portugal had defeated nations in India, Arabia and Indonesia to carve a surprising empire around the Indian Ocean. And the Spaniards were overthrowing empires in the Americas. Japan? A bit far away, and the people were fierce, but at the time there was a LOT of gold and silver in Japan. And the country was divided. The English and the French built their empires with as much arrogance and shamelessness. And for less obvious reasons.
Same reasons - profit and power in Europe was always the motive, the religious aspects were window dressing to keep their European subjects happy.
@@williamchamberlain2263 Yes, but Spain and Portugal literally saw mountains of gold, silver, spices, jewels, etc. Hard to resist the temptation. Even the opium trade wasn't as juicy as the prizes the Iberians fought for.
Heh, no. The Portuguese and Spanish acted like scum, killing with no concern, just like the Spanish Inquisition harrassed, imprisoned and killed people in the Portuguese villages. The British alone in the world came up with the idea that rulers shouldn't be allowed to do whatever they wanted with their subjects, and that there should be a court process for all. In Japan and China and elsewhere the rulers could kill peasants with no arrest, no trial. In the novel Blackthorne was shocked when he saw a samurai kill an oil trader on the road simply because he didn't want to move his carriage out of the way. In China any local ruler could also be killed by the emperor's court if the mandarin had successfully built up trade and business, and they wanted his money. This happened. The Incas and Aztecs were even more ruthless, keeping conquered peoples as slaves from which they took the women to divide among their own as sehx slaves.
Aztecs, Apaches, African tribes, Ottomans, Indians, everyone kept slaves until the British forced them to stop.Westerners alone came up with moral arguments against slavery. In the year 1800 20% of all people lived in some form of bondage. The English forced African coastal kingdoms and African tribes to give up their slaves, forced the Somalis to release the smaller Bantus. The Americans fought on "the coasts of Tripoli" to free thousands of European and American slaves from the Arabs, who had been enslaving Whites and Blacks for centuries. Even Chinese Buddhist monks had slaves working their fields. It is only thanks to Western Whites that people now have the thing called "rights," that rulers can't treat their subjects as their possessions to kill as they want, and that slavery is gone from all corners of the world. Except we still see Africans, some Central Asians and some South American tribes keeping slaves - about 3 million people are kept as slaves by these today. But back to how horrible Westerners are, the only thing you'll hear about in school.
By the way, right before the Shogun story the Japanese had invaded Korea, and Iyeasu planned to conquer the Philippines from the Spanish.
@@williamchamberlain2263Three Gs of the goal during that time, Gold, God & Glory.
One of the best shows in a long long time. The books are awesome... great that FX stuck to authenticity.
amazing acting with the subtle smirk
One of my favorite scenes of the show so far. Considering the violence that happens before and after this conversation, that’s really saying something. The choices the characters will make and the direction of the plot keep shifting with every new line of dialogue uttered here. I’m only three episodes in and it is already my favorite show of the year 🔥
Yes, but it butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
When he says "Unless I win. " A sly slight smile come over Toranagas face
We also have eyes.
Yes, but it butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
@@Grasslander thank u ..most thorough
I simply can't get enough of this! This show better get a pile of awards.
I am in pain waiting for the next episode to come out. Shogun was my favorite book as a kid and so far this show has done a great job at least somewhat living up to it!
A brit calling Portuguese arrogant had me chuckled a little bit.
Ssahh the brits wanna be shown in a good light right now after colonizing 80% of the world. Let them cope their moment.
Sailed from England, all the way south and west around South America, and then Northwest to Japan. This is a man who should not be underestimated
If this Englishman had not been washed ashore into Japan, all of East Asia would have become Portuguese colonies.
His advice led Tokugawa Ieyasu to banish both Portuguese and Spanish people from Japan soil forever. Japan closed the country and only the Dutch were allowed to trade in Nagasaki.
@@davidcoldstar6333 nah, they didn't have the numbers to take over all of East Asia like that. Britain and France however did have the population as you would see going forward in the next few centuries.
@@davidcoldstar6333In the book? Or in real life?
If you mean in real life, not a chance...
The most catrastrophic outcome to the Japanese order would have been a Catholic victory over Japan, the buddhist temples would lose their political importance and the emperor likewise would lose his right to rule, causing a probably violent change of power, as this would of course also come to harm the Shogun's de facto rulership.
I don't see how in hell Portugal would conquer Japan. Spain even less. The prospect in Japan was trade. Conquering the actual island was nonsensical, it bore no resources like spices, and the islands, besides being extremely mountainous, also were very fortified, much like Europe because of its feudal societies.
So we might have seen a Christian Japan. Though, a native Christian Japan.
There was never an upcoming invasion, like this scene implies. The issue was a threat to the social order in Japan. As I described, the catholic upstart lords and the convert population threated the political power of the buddhist order, which in turn enshrined the emperor's legitimacy.
It was a matter of survivial for the regime in charge of Japan. So the Shogun banned and supressed christianity and banned all Jesuit missions. In turn, he successfully preserved the social order and his rule.
Almost correct, Chuckles... The Dutch fleet, ( of which Erasmus and Blackthorne were one ship ) set out from Rotterdam, down past Brazil, through the secret Pass of Magellan, and then across the Pacific Ocean to make landfall at Anjiro... It was still a great journey in the year 1600....
Japan would be a part of a Portuguese colony, just like the European colonies in other parts of Asia. @@davidcoldstar6333
I love his smile at the end and considering what he planned and did to Blackthorne throughout the show. That one line "unless i win" really struck a chord with Toranaga and probably was the moment he knew and wanted Blackthorne around. "I like the cut of his jib" is probably what he said to himself as he did that sly smile.
Excellent scene, superb acting and writing - loving this series so far and hope the release it on 4k bluray
This meeting would change both of their lives, and the history of Japan, forever.
The U.S. forcing the Japan to open up in 1853 was what ultimately changed Japan for good.
Yes, but it butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
Loving this show, it's been better than any movie in theaters in years.
Yes, but it butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
I binged all episodes in 1 day and Im still craving for more.
I could watch this scene all day. Can't wait to watch the next episode tomorrow.
Man, this scene had me tense. The writing and acting is masterclass 😮💨
The actor playing Blackthorne was great in Raised by Wolves, the guy that reprogrammed the androids.
The gentle and easy smile was the best thing about this conversation.
That little grin.
No one else could have been Toranaga.
This is the Tordesillas Treaty by Portugal and Spain! I geeked so hard when I watched this! :D God! This show is gorgeous!
Treaty of Zaragoza, signed 1529, 70 years before the show’s 1600 timeline. It was signed to settle the claim on the Moluccas (Spice Islands) issue. Tordesillas was an older treaty that Zaragoza replaced.
Treaty of Tortillas 😂 (how i remembered it as a kid lol)
After Columbus found the West Indies, the New World ( North America ) was being discovered, and America ( South America ) was being slowly explored, but the Pope set the original Line of Demarcation in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. But Portugal knew about the existence of Brazil, and asked to have the Line of Demarcation moved Westwards... So the Treaty of Tordesillas was signed by Portugal and Spain... But that was ONLY from the North Pole , through the Atlantic Ocean, to the South Pole... It took the Magellan expedition, in 1521, to determine the size of the Earth ( at 7000 miles diameter, rather than the earlier estimate of 5000 miles diameter )... So, a few years later, the Treaty of Zaragoza was signed, to complete the Line of Demarcation, from the North Pole, through the Pacific Ocean, to the South Pole.... So it was confirmed that the Spice Islands, the Philippines, and Japan were all in the Portuguese half.... Ultimately, it was agreed that Spain would keep the Philippines, and Portugal kept all of Brazil...
@@slammzski9785 Yes, we must remember that the Tordesillas Treaty was only to set the Demarcation Line from the North Pole, through the Atlantic Ocean, to the South Pole... They did NOT know what was on the other side of the globe, and it took the Magellan expedition to confirm the size of the Earth, and the size of the Pacific Ocean... Once that was confirmed in 1521, it was possible to establish the Demarcation Line from the North Pole, through the Pacific Ocean, to the South Pole.... The Zaragoza Treaty confirmed that the Spice Islands and Japan were in the Portuguese half....
@@boardcertifiable The Pope's original ' Line of Demarcation ' was in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean... But Portugal knew about the existence of the tip of Brazil, and wanted to found a Colony there, so Portugal asked for the Line to be moved Westwards...Spain did not know about Brazil, and just assumed that the whole area was covered with water, and so Spain signed the Treaty, in the town of Tordesillas... Remember that the Pope's original Line only went from the North Pole, through the Atlantic Ocean, down to the South Pole....
This show is soo fking awesome. I am totally in love with it!!
Absolutely brilliant, this scene and the entire show.
Absolutely enthralling scene, sold me on the show.
Blackthrone be snitching 😂😂😂
Hiroyuki Sanada continues to awaken things inside me and I'm for it.
That wry smile at the end tells so much.
All the answer to how the Japanese actually became totally independent of the rest of the world are in the book! The author used fictional character to explain the history of Samurai Japan. The book itself is a masterpiece.
The scene in the book is so good i was so happy to see it, though it's so fast paced here it's still really good
Yes, one of the drawbacks of putting it on film... They have to radically shorten the story everywhere, but, at least this scene is nicely presented...
Yes, but it butchers the important "unless we win" comment. In the novel and the first TV show, it is different. Blackthorne says the English helped the Dutch rebel against Spanish rule.
Toranaga says, "you must never rebel against your master!"
Blackthorne says, "there were serious mitigating circumstances."
Toranaga says there are no mitigating circumstances for rebellion, never.
Blackthorne slowly says: "Unless we win."
This makes Toranaga laugh. Then he says, "Yes, Anjin-san, you have found the one mitigating circumstance. And will you win?"
"Oh yes, we will."
This shows Toranaga that he should keep Blackthorne close, as he alone can think outside the box like Toranaga does. And most importantly, the novel says, he needs a friend.
Did they deliberately change that to hide that non-Westerners would approve of empire? You must only show Westerners colonizing. The fact is all peoples did it, just not as well. Before the Shogun story, Toranaga, Ishido and the other leaders had fought to conquer Korea.
thats smirk in the end... tells that i really like this one...
OMG!!!!!! first 5 mn i watch of this show , i was completey taken by the tension in this scene, i love it !
The acting at the line "Do you swear by your God? Yes I do." Sends chills man!
Treaty of Tordesillas & Zaragoza.
One of the best scenes in television. period
Such faithful adapting to the novel!!!!!!!
Chills, my peeps. Chills.
Great scene
Underrated writing moment: When Blackthorne says, "The earth is round--like a fruit" and then pauses to check Toranaga's reaction to see if it unsettles him or not because he knows that could be life changing news, but Toranaga is so inscrutable he has to hurry to avoid the appearance of patronizing him.
There is just so much to unpack there.
Best show I've seen in years.
Give this show all the awards - across the board awesome
Blackthorne is based on a real person called William Adams. He bacame friends with Tokugawa Ieyasu (Toranaga).
The murmurs of shock when she translates ‘…belongs to the Portuguese’.
This is such a beautiful series.
That subtle smirk that Toronaga couldn't suppress said everything that needed to be said.