Before the Federation : The Vulcan Big Brother
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ต.ค. 2017
- And we finish out the Vulcans with Part 2 - where we discuss the Vulcan High Command and the ultimate Vulcan Big Brother of the Alpha Quadrant.. Next Week we take a look at the Romulans! Thanks for watching Before The Federation : The Vulcan Big Brother
================================================
Want More Lore?!
Star Trek Lore: goo.gl/McF2i5
Star Wars Lore: goo.gl/Hzyrk2
Battle Star Galactica Lore: goo.gl/jpPPUY
Star Trek Dominion War: • The Story of the Guard...
================================================
Twitter: / lorereloaded
Facebook: / lorereloaded
Twitch: / lorereloaded
Patreon: / lorereloaded
================================================
The music in this video is licensed Royalty Free.
Songs:
Music by:
© 2017 Epidemic Sound - บันเทิง
![[TH] 2024 PMWC x EWC Group Stage Day 2 | PUBG MOBILE WORLD CUP x ESPORTS WORLD CUP](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vwIQyCmNIBU/mqdefault.jpg)
I forgot to mention, but next week - we take a look at the Romulans.
Lore Reloaded Jolan True!
The Vulcans shot first when coming in contact with Klingons, because Klingons proved to always be aggressive. Suing for peace has nothing to do with it.
+shirehorse91 you decide what a race is all about after one interaction...?
There had been a few interactions with similar results, but after a civilian ship(?) was destroyed with no warning, they decided to shoot first and ask questions later.
+shirehorse91 I haven't read or found resources saying civillians were fired on..though I'm happy to accept that as true. It doesn't seem logical to me that the vulcans wouldn't beef up defenses ...find other communication..out ride avoid.. Nope..after a few incidents..let's fire first and let God sort em out.. That's just not consistent with Canon to me
I wouldn't take McCoy's word for it that Vulcan was conquered. After all, he's a doctor, not a historian.
+Katie Katie I see what you did there
He doesnt simply mean the conquest of Vulcan by Surak's logic?
haha beautiful!
indeed
Damn it Katie!
An entire race with the same haircut XD
Fancy haircuts ... not very logical to waste precious time on that kind of nonsense, thatsmore a human thing
@@voxdraconia4035 I bet T'pol started to take better care of her wild carpet after being around humans.
Have you ever seen North Koreans?
Logical...but not fascinating.
@@williamquilitzsch4174 Have you ever seen South Koreans?
For me, I think the best way to describe it is that after the founding of the Federation, the Vulcans stopped trying to slow down our progress (which they viewed as too quick to be safe), and became the actual mentors and advisers that they had always claimed to be. Saval even admits that the race humanity reminds him of the most is the Vulcans. Both species pushed themselves to the edge of self-destruction for similar reasons. Both found a way to pull back from that edge and create something better and more sustainable. The difference (and what really scared the Vulcans) was that humans had accomplished this in a fraction of the time it took the Vulcans, and they still embraced the full range of emotions that, from the Vulcan perspective, would have been responsible for all of the previous problems.
Honestly humans were very lucky that their first contact was with Vulcans, I don't think other species would have been so friendly, I think it's pretty obvious in ST Enterprise that humans weren't ready to explore other civilizations, their curiosity, arrogance, and despair about show that they could be better
that the Vulcans led them to be reckless by skipping procedures. In the end, humans had to adopt many of the Vulcans procedures to explore.
I think that the relationship between humans and vulcans can be described as brothers, one is older and wiser while the other is talented but impulsive, with a certain ribality but in the end with a very strong relationship.
@@gatobuho- Honestly, I could see the several of Star Trek's species digging into humanities history out of idle curiosity, seeing the many MANY wars we've fought amongst ourselves and the weapons we used while doing it. Take a moment to think... and then prevent anything from leaving the Sol system with extreme force afterward if they were the ones to make first contact.
I think we can safely retcon mccoys statement about vulcan being conquered as a reference to a parrises squares championship match held that week not otherwise mentioned in the show.
Lore expansion achieved, Continuity gaff fixed... 2xp rewarded.
"Vulcans are the intellectual puppets of this federation!" - Klingon ambassador, Star Trek IV
indeed
The Klingons came to respect the Vulcans, and through that respect the Vulcans were able to open a dialogue. They were not seen as weak in the Klingons eyes, but a worthy foe, so the Klingons would only attack them if they felt they had an upper hand in what would turn into a war. This isnt even reading into it, its clearly explained in the episode and supported if you know anything about Klingons.
Its like the barbarian warlord meets the quiet ninja master. Both are deadly but the one doesnt know it till it needs to be known.
@Andi Magna Discovery episode 1
A lot of people are talking about how the Vulcans weren't one of the first to have warp drive. This is true, technically, but if we're talking about "modern" Alpha Quadrant powers, they definitely had it earlier than most. Civilizations in Star Trek seem to come in waves, with people like the Q and the Organians probably being among the first life in the Galaxy. So when dealing with the political landscape of the 24th century, they *effectively* had it first.
I concur. Also, to quote Discovery cause that's a popular thing to do.. Context is King ;P
Discovery? What's that? /sarcasm
In a way, I do understand why the Vulcans choose to hold Humans back.
I mean, during a conversation between Admiral Forrest and Ambassador Soval, they mentioned that Humans reminded the Vulcans a lot about themselves as Vulcans like Humans were once destructive, violent and nearly brought themselves into extinction fighting among themselves. This means that the Vulcans would hold back Humans in order to prevent Earth from being a danger to themselves and others.
It's also possible (albeit unlikely) that the Vulcans somehow accidentally discovered the Mirror Universe (before Kirk did) and saw what the Humans (as the Terran Empire) could be capable of and how much of a threat to the Alpha Quadrant they are if not kept in check. If so, it would also make sense for the Vulcans to not let Earth know about the Mirror Universe (or what they saw) so as to not give Earth any ideas about creating the Terran Empire.
I think Sovall was the best example of the mentality in its sincerest form.. The actor did it so well and gave his opinion .. you could tell he cared about humanity..but also wanted to make sure they didn't become Klingons. I don't know I agree with the sentiment completely..but I think Soval was the best example of it in its sincerest form of wanting to help.
At first Sovall was like most Vulcans of this era. Stuck up, and arrogant.
But, eventually we see him becoming more sympathetic to the Humans.
One can interpret his actions in MANY DIFFERENT ways. Some folks see him as a parent wanting Earth folks to not make the MANY mistakes Vulcans made b4 Surak's philosophy was widely accepted (b4 it was forgotten and lost and had to be rediscovered)
Apples and Oranges though. Humans recovered from their nuclear war in 90 years while setting up a society not concerned with personal wealth... Mostly. Vulcans took 1,500 years to recover from their nuclear war. They turned to logic not just because of self destructive emotions but because they are race of telepaths that made telepathic weapons. As in the Stone of Gol. Vulcans have stronger emotions but not all of them totally control them. Unless you perform Kohlinar but that would make them essentially monks with no connection outside. Vulcans also can be motivated by the acquisition of wealth. And they are Vegetarians despite evolving as top predators. Being a dessert world it has less resources than Earth. Earth managed to eliminate hunger and poverty. If there is anything Humans are good at it is to innovate. Hence the Enterprise can use Lithium crystals in place of Dilithium. Going for alternatives much like in WW2 where we switch from natural rubber to synthetic rubber. Our current problem with food isn't production but logistics. Synthesizer tech solved that for United Earth. Oh yes in Scotty discovered how to recrystalize Dilithium that it became standard equipment in 24th century Starfleet. Bet that helped with peace talks with the Klingons on Khitomer.
While Vulcan joined the Federation it didn't federalized its fleet like United Earth. Andorians kept their fleet too. With Earth taking the slack due to its unique economy. Both Earth and Mars are major shipyard industries. Vulcans and Andorians don't need to spend money or resources to make their fleets compete with Klingons, Romulans etc. Plus Starfleet contributes to their local economies renting space for Starbases and Starfleet officers spending their money on shore leave. Janeway got ripped off by a Vulcan shop keeper for example.
The Vulcans were wary of what humans could do if left unchecked. Unlike the Vulcans, it took humans only a few centuries to recover from a global nuclear conflict and reach the Stars. It took Vulcans the better part of 2 millennia. No wonder they forgot about their exiled cousins.
on one episode of enterprise, one vulcan of high command, he said that vulcans were more or less irritated with humans because, what took the vulcans 1500 years to do ( achieve warp flight) we humans managed to do in only 50 years.
As a person who holds advanced degrees in both History and Political Science/Geopolitics, I have to applaud you on the pragmatic 'Real Politik' you bring to the Star Trek Lore series you produce. Your analysis and informed opinions are more often than not in-line with ones I too hold regarding the different Star Trek story arcs and species. Well done my friend, well done indeed. I truly enjoy watching every instalment. Keep up the top shelf work mate.
Thanks ;) Ultimately the Channel is a conversation - trying to see what people think. It's also beyond rare that you see lore that is as complete as actual history.. so inference and analysis is necessary. I'm honored that you think so highly of the work so far.
Like the British Empire the Vulcans faded but didn't lose their influence you could say they now have soft power.
And tea..they probably have tea..
We rarely ever saw Vulcan ships since the Federation became top dog.
We never really saw other member ships either it seemed to be like "Stop building your own ships use ours instead."
I believe the other member races have their own ships. Purely for regional defenses and civilian use. They didn't stop building their ships. Just that they agree to be with the Federation as a galaxy wide protection.
BadwolfGamer There is only one Vulcan ship on Star Trek online and it's a science ship. Three classes of Andorian ship but they are all pretty much the same ship.
Except the British empire lost almost all of their power.
Tos said that vulcan had an imperial past that was super-vicious. Spock was ashamed of it. Also the romulan war was fought without warp drive, implying the vulcan empire (when it existed) was pre-ftl
I think that’s pretty much retconned now. Romulan obviously have warp drive in ENT, which makes sense. Any fight where one side has such a decisive advantage (i.e. warp-capable vs sublight) wouldn’t end in a stalemate. And Romulans wouldn’t be able to carve out and defend an empire from warp-capable enemies, who could just leap over their defenses and lay waste to planets before STL ships had a chance to arrive. No, they had to have warp. In TOS, they assumed that both Earth and Romulus had no warp during the war. This won’t work anymore.
The Romulan War books take a more updated view of this. Romulans have warp and cloaking but are lacking in other areas.
I actually really liked Discovery's version, because it made clear that both Klingons and Vulcans are actually other species that work according to a different rationale and culture - that humans might not follow, as Sarek plausibly pointed out. Beautifully done video!
Ah, so that would explain where the Romulans get their scheming nature from. Another example showing that Romulans and Vulcans are related.
I've always thought that Vulcans and Romulans were two sides of the same coin.. They are played as opposites well.
If you're talking about how they handle their emotions (With Vulcans shoving their emotions deep deep down in a mental shoe-box, and Romulans preferring to embrace those same emotions by wearing them on their sleeves) then yeah, pretty much.
I think you've got it backwards, Hunter. I think it was the influence of the Romulan infiltrators in Archer's time that made the Vulcans act as they did, not just to other races, but to their own people; it would not have served Romulan interests for Vulcans to rediscover the teachings of Surak, and Vulcans with telepathic abilities (mind meld) would definitely have been a threat to Romulan spies.
@@jlevogiani2012This.
Thank you for bringing this up I try to explain the points you made to somebody but I failed.. I could not articulate the points so elegantly like you have for " True" understanding on how the Vulcans operate !
Thank you for these vids, well done and well appreciated!
The 3 episode Vulcan arc in Enterprise is some of my favourite Trek of all time. Epic.
When doctor McCoy refer to the quote on quote conquering of Vulcan it could have been a rather loose interpretation of Vulcan Society stepping down from a controlling stake in interstellar affairs this could appear to the untrained eye to be defeat but actually it was just a paradigm shift within the Vulcan government. So far as the mediating function of humanity in their early history in the Star Trek Mythos it's actually indicative of something I like to call the core Mythos namely that it shows humans as being sort of a Baseline species. We don't represent an extreme in any area instead we are well-balanced and we serve as a middle ground between other extremes this is seen everywhere from hard science fiction too hard fantasy and all points in between those two states.
I dig your videos Man. I like to pop them on, sit back and binge a few at a time and just unleash my inner Trek Geek.
I always aim to impress and open to suggestions and critique ;) Glad you enjoy
Lore Reloaded and pleasing your videos are. I did suggest your thoughts on the Remans in another comment. Would be curious to hear what you have to say. Aside from the Andorians, to me they are the most interesting yet least expound upon species in the Trek universe.
Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations
Does not apply to hair styles.
Spock was a rebel Vulcan though!
Multiple Fashion style are more emotional expression than protective clothing.
Well made points
Thanks
In regards to how to deal with first-contact with Klingons, I'm all for "The Vulcan Hello." I like that Discovery showed that logic had to work differently when used towards Klingons (not bloody humans).
As far as I am concerned Discovery is a parallel universe separate from the main continuity.
Great background knowledge.
This is one of the few things DSC did with the Klingons I have no problems with, because Klingons are conquers who aren't interested developing diplomatic contacts with other interstellar powers, but they would respect if you can demonstrate that you're a worthy foe. Also I think it is highly possible Vulcans would open future engagements with hostilities after their first contact resulted in their own ship being attack without warning.
Eh, It seems very un vulcan to me.. But that's just my opinion on it.
I may not seem very Vulcan like, but as far as a means of establishing formal relations with the Klingon Empire it makes perfect sense. I never could get over the fact that the Vulcans (Star Trek: Enterprise) somehow had diplomatic ties with the Klingons. As if Klingons would respect "emotionless robots" more than any other race.
Lore Reloaded, do you find it un Vulcan for them to annexed Weytahn from the Andorians because the colony was too close to Vulcan space?
My point the Vulcans of the Ent-era were far more aggressive to their neighbors than they were further in the timeline. So maybe you are right that Vulcans from the TOS era or later would only have charged their shields (maybe weapons too) as some kind precaution protocol but won't open fire without hailing the Klingons first.
Through it doesn't really surprise me the Vulcans before the ENT-era would be more trigger happy on an alien species who declared themselves to be hostile. In that case they may fire a couple of warning shots before hailing (Sarek never said they destroyed the Klingon ships, just fired first) in order to demonstrate to the hostile foe they are no paper tiger
It is very Klingon however. And that is the point. It might not be what the Vulcans would do. But it's what the Klingons respect. Which logically the Vulcans deduced.
+Lore Reloaded
It's not "un-Vulcan" in the slightest. If they had paid note to the behaviour of the Klingons - and being Vulcan, you know they *would* have - they could have come to the decision that it would be only logical that the Klingons would only respond to force at that point in time. Klingons are clearly a warrior culture, and it would be quite an obvious thing for the Vulcans to notice. Being logical and hyper-intelligent does not also make you a pacifist, y'know.. Sometimes the only logical choice is to bloody someone else's nose before they bloody yours.
Do you really think people like Hitler, Stalin, George Washington etc. are stupid? If they were stupid, they wouldn't be dangerous. The only reason people like that end up on the wrong side of history is that they also happen to be bat-shit crazy and hooked on narcotics in alot of cases (especially in the case of Hitler.) History's written by the victor, and being smart does not also make someone a good person.
Great voice and pace
It's possible they somehow got insider information about the machinations of the Empire, and realized that (in this context) a display of strength would be the best thing to keep the Klingons off their backs. I doubt that would be something that they normally resort to when facing unusually hostile aliens.
Vulcans are the Founders, with the Federation acting as their Dominion.
A lot of people complain about the Vulcans shooting first but I think they forget that logic and pacifism are not the same thing. There are times when violence is logical. When you encounter a hostile force that does not negotiate, communicate, or leave survivors then the logical thing to do the next time you encounter them is to attack first to ensure the safety of your ship and crew. You know from past encounters that they attack without provocation and it is logical to assume they will continue to do so if they are not deterred. Therefore from an objectively logical standpoint unburdened by sentiment this course of action makes sense. Or do you really think it logical to sit around hailing a hostile vessel while they shoot at you? I have an ass-load of problems with discovery but this is not one of them.
The ones that actually faded into the background are the 100+ other members of the Federation. You see a few here and there, probably mostly for flavor. Both TOS and TNG era starfleet have mention whole ships manned by Vulcans but not any of the other members of the Federation.
+gaslone79 I imagine there are ships of entire crews of multiple different species.. We see time and again.. In both prime and in Kelvin..that vulcans more than not try to do things other than Starfleet.. Which is consistent with their nature it seems. So my phrasing may need work but per capita.. I do believe you have less vulcans..doesn't mean you don't have thousands of Starfleet vulcan s.. But bump that up against tens of thousands of humans..
Yet we know for a fact there was at least one all Vulcan crewed Federation ship during the events of DS9. (For get the name of the ship and episode, but's the one were they all are playing baseball on the holo-deck). Yet we have only seen a fraction of the other 100+ races that are part of the Federation.
We have no idea whether or not any races other than humans and vulcans manned Starfleet ships in Kirk's era. The Constitution class USS Intrepid had an all-vulcan crew; there are no other alien crew members on TOS Enterprise (until TAS) and I suspect that Spock had the choice of an all-vulcan or all-human ship, he being both human and vulcan.
An episode of DS9 (Apocalypse Rising) where Sisko & crew infiltrate a Klingon station during a war with the Federation, there is a Klingon that brags at the bar about attacking and killing Tellarites in an engagement with one of their ships I recall. So it really does seem they still have homogenous crewed ships in later Trek.
BTW, I remember as a kid, I would buy Star Trek plastic model ships from ERTL and one that I put together was the "Vulcan Shuttle" that Spock (after his failed Kolinahr) arrived in to help Kirk & crew intercept VGer in ST:TMP. It had the upper portion separate for docking while the nacelles stayed behind. Very different from what later designers made Vulcan ships look like. Really was a nice model.
This is probably not an original thought, but the Vulcans are essentially space elves.
Oh crap, now we have to deal with the Eye of Terror in Star Trek too?
I rather suspect Hylians. With how much the TriForce is expressed in their decorations.
Vulcan is My favorite planet live long and prosper
Well Apollo once said Spock reminded him of Pan.
As for Vulcans being explorers versus logical mapping, I think the disparity lies in the Vulcan mindset of logical self-protection just one-hundred years prior to the Vulcan change in government. At that time they looked for signs of advancements toward warp technology in a civilization and do a risk analysis of the race to see if they might pose a threat. Since humanity reminded them so much of early Vulcans it put humans high on their potential threat list. Now, I have no knowledge of STD so this is based on everything, but that. As far as McCoys' comment about being 'conquered' I think the massive shift in government could be considered that and explained that way by the Vulcans as they also use the term for emotions, so it is common in their lexicon.
I have always felt that if the Vulcans wanted to they cloud run the alpha quadrant and there would be nothing anyone could do about it. Their logic if, turned military could be very difficult to defeat.
Food for thought, T-pau from enterprise (the woman who discovered Sh'rak's teachings) is possibly the same surviving Vulcan present when Spock goes home to mate at the beginning of series 2, she was stated as being in her early 20's in that show, so could realistically be the same person as in the original series she is an old woman, Vulcans can live upto two hundred earth years.
I would believe that the political Klingon government and intelligent services came to a logical conclusion that a all out war to conquer Vulcan and their colonies would not be logistically sound and also would draw in the Romulans, which early on was more of a concern then Star Fleet in it's early days, Finally in the Klingon Empire somebody on the high concuil or military command wants war, however I would believe among the experience and older political house they don't want to overstretch the main miltary forces, particularly those who share their borders like the Romulans.
The Vulcan were conquered by the Federation. Think about it this is what the Klingons were afraid of being conquered by peaceful means. Sure the Vulcans are a part of the Federation, but look at this way, they were assimilated over time and peacefully
Weird, I don't recall the Vulcans being the one of the first Alpha Quadrant race to have warp drive. I believed they were able to expand in the galaxy at a rapid pace because of warp drive developed by Cochraine and the improvement they made but not sharing such research with the very race that invented it.
And the fact that Enterprise's action prevented a Reunification might be seen as a good thing. The Romulans had a hand in undermining the Vulcan High Command. And it wouldn't be until about another couple of centuries later that Enterprise would once again prevent another Romulan-controlled Reunification.
I hope that we in future, get a first contact like species of Vulcan.
I must point out we know very little about the First Contact between Vulcans and Klingons--did anyone survive, was anyone else around to witness it, what information did the Vulcans have about the Klingons, what did they learn in the wake of this incident, etc.
@0:15 Vulcan was by no means one of the first to have warp technology, there's plenty of examples in every star trek series of warp capable species that existed "locally" long before Vulcans.
I'd love to do a colab with you, how about a TOS based Lore on Klingons, there is more there then you might think.
what happened to V'las. was he indicted by Vulcan state, at end of episode he seems to be free, not even held in detention
During the Enterprise Era: "Vulcans are more like a Big Brother to Humans and kept their tech to us because we are not ready on using it on our own"
During the TOS and TNG:
"Vulcans greatly benefitted from Humans because of our capability to handle difficult situations which is impossible to them and they are willing to share their technology to the Federation as it mostly compose of Humans
The line from Conscience of the King was obviously sarcasm. It does not deserve any weight, on the other hand the line from The Changeling had much more weight behind it. It is kind of the non error-error.
In regard to McCoys remark about Vulcan being conquered it must be remembered that Bones is of course "a doctor and not an historian." Spock's reaction his remark about that and the look on his face perhaps shows that he is very much aware of this. And so simply decided to ignore him when he said this. Another good example of this can be seen in Bread and Circuses when McCoy also claims that ancient Rome had no sun worshipers. Something categorically not true. Even for many centuries after the time of Christ. But in that episode as well Spock also simply ignores him instead of correcting him.
If you read between the lines, the United earth is the US, and Vulcans are the UK.
are vulcan space elves?
the vulcans saves humanity, i am very sad how they show then in discovery, the vulcans give they tecnology of mankid after the surak teachings are found, after the creation of coalizion they help against the romulans invasion
To quote from the video Prelude to Axanar: A vulcan's gonna do what a vulcan's gonna do.
1:17 I thought you said the Kardashians, I almost choked
Omni-present leather skinned tyrants bent on galactic domination!
I normally DESPISE prequels as a matter of principle, but I would make a RESOUNDING EXCEPTION if I could see a TV series, mini series, or even a movie about the Vulcans before they and braised logic. I would love to see some savage Vulcans. With their Incredible strength, intellectual prowess, and psychic abilities, a priori logic Vulcan civilization would kind of be like Star Trek's equivalent of the Old Republic. Just thinking about it puts me on the verge of total awesomeness mind explosion.
Then we could see the origins of modern rituals. We could see "the old faith" operate. We could see how female Vulcans whose champions lost the mating battles really acted. How powerful was the ancient High Priestess of Mt. Seleya? Did Vulcans once worship the mountain as a goddess and were most Vulcan cultures goddess-based? I would LOVE to see a mini-series or a movie about that. It could centralize on a family who split in two because of disagreement over Surak's teaching. We could even see the early days of Surak. Were some Vulcans not only telepathic but telekinetic? It would be uber-cool to see!
Your videos need more views
Amen to that brother
Here I always thought it was Nightwatch that bombed the embassy as revenge against Admiral Forrest for abandoning them and the Earth Alliance.
McCoy was being funny like always when he said "no wonder you Vulcans were conquered" as in being part of the Federation meant being conquered because Humans liked booze unlike Vulcans.
Infinite diversity in infinite combinations.
You want a continuity problem? How about the fact that TOS says Humans, not Vulcans, invented warp drive first? In the episode, "Metamorphosis", when Zephram Cochran introduces himself, Kirk replies, "The discoverer of the space warp?" Not the human discoverer, *THE* discoverer. Later, Kirk tells him, "There's a whole galaxy waiting to honor you." Cochran, and humans, had to have been first in our part of the galaxy. I do not remember now what the literary source of the first contact story was, before the movie "First Contact", but I do remember reading it. It describes the Vulcans detecting Cochran's warp signature and going to investigate it, but does not say they had warp drive. It also doesn't say they didn't. Vulcans, being long lived and of stoic philosophy, could deal with interstellar travel at sub light speeds, especially if they could achieve at least relativistic velocities and take advantage of time dilation. The Romulans did so until they bought warp technology from the Klingons.
To the argument that the Vulcans could not have detected a warp signature if they did not have warp technology, I point out that a Kalahari bushman can hear a sonic boom even if he has no idea of its source. Based on our knowledge of physics, and certain things established in various episodes, we can confidently say that a warp signature would be an energy surge consisting of electromagnetic and gravitational energy and tachyons. An advanced, but prewarp, culture could certainly detect those things and probably realize they could not be of natural origin. Thus, they might investigate.
Getting on into what was stated in the movie, "First Contact", Jordi tells Cochran that Chapter 1 of Starfleet Academy's introductory textbook on warp engineering is "Zephram Cochran". Why would that be the case at a school teaching all the races of the Federation if Earth were Johnny come latelies to the warp club?
Vulcans and Klingons made first contact presumably some time before Human's first warp flight and considering the nature of both of those species even by the time of Enterprise, it seems reasonable to me that the pre reformation Vulcans would fire first against an unreasonable aggressor race.
What do you think the population of Vulcan was?
+David Herman ...I'd guess mostly Vulcan?
Was Vloss a Vulcan or a Romulan agent pretending to be a Vulcan?
Every channel has to take a dig to prove they're cool. But c'mon, _Discovery_ has made some odd choices... But it still has it's place and it's worth. There's great stuff there if you just keep an open mind. Not to mention that it and the _Kelvin Timeline_ films brought new life to our almost dead franchise.
Why the assumption that the Vulcans had no way of knowing what happened in the first contact with the Klingons? Maybe there was something similar to a surviving black box.
Vulcan Big Brother? I didn't know that the Vulcans had reality TV.
It's the news show on the Federation News Network?
What are the odds of that? Oh, wait, one of the contestants just calculated them.
Space Elves be Space Elves.
Elves guide mortals regardless of circumstances... or story genres.
Finally a logical video
Unfortunately i can't remember where i left off before your channel got shut down because its not showing which episodes i've already seen.
=( Hopefully you can still access them!
The thing that bothers me about the P'Jem sanctuary is that the listening post there was in violation of a treaty. I have no problem with the Vulcans using a sacred monastery for it. It seems like everyone in the show conveniently forgot that it was there in violation of a treaty. I think that's a bigger no-no than using a sacred place for a spying station.
This is one of the many reasons why I personally don’t accept anything after Star Trek Yoyager as canon since everything after Voyager has betrayed Gene Roddenberry's vision of Star Trek.
4:41
ambasador savol is sareks father
It's been said by people in the past the Starfleet is not a military organization but I think that's BS because it treats itself like a military organization and it has ranks like a military organization so that means it's a military organization
I think it's more an evolution of the military from the war. Kept a semblance of the structure, because it works well, but is not about militaristic power(even if they develop weaponry, and are always top of the line).
It's a very thin line.
🖖
The thing with the Vulcans in the Klingons "the Vulcan hello is very logical. The Vulcans realized who they were dealing with. They realize that Klingons only understand and respect power and action. So they showed the Klingons that they had the power to defend themselves and they wouldn't put up with the Klingons actions and after a time it earned them respect with the Klingons and the Klingons left them alone. It's completely understandable that the Klingons would react this way. They are going to consider you an easy target until you prove that you're not an easy target. During the beginnings of the klingon-federation war the Klingons use the battle strategy called the strategy of least respect. The Klingons never took the Federation seriously until the Federation showed them that they have to take them seriously.
The vulcans realized who they were dealing with after only one interaction, with limited knowledge (we know its limited because they went into klingon space not realizing its klingon space), and with little investigation of possible other reasons..assumed it was battle?
Lore Reloaded thier first violent interaction yes. The Vulcans new about and watched the Kligons for some time before that. Do you think the Vulcan hello was the very first time they had seen a Klingon? No... We simply have to much lore that would imply otherwise.
+Mr Eboric If they had been watching them for a long time..how did they cross their border not knowing it was their border?
+Mr Eboric There is zero lore from discovery or any other source that this wasn't the first time they had met the klingons
Lore Reloaded They didn't need to talk to the Klingons to know a lot about them. By that time Vulcans had already been a space civilization for hundreds of years and had made contact with the Telerits and the Andorians. With all three of them being on the Klingons borders the Vulcans could know many things about the Klingons without ever talking to them. They ARE Vulcan after all. They would want to know everything they can to act accordingly.
You might want to reconsider mixing universes in your conclusions. Events in Discovery have no more bearing on what is going on in the prime universe than what happens in the Mirror Universe or the JJ Abrahams Universe.
You also seem to believe that Vulcans are explorers and First Contact adventurers, but the instances you highlight are probably the exception. If you go through all of the advice and observations that come from T'Pol during her duties on NX-01, you will see that Vulcans do not do either of those things by intent.
Discovery is considered prime timeline. Tpols dialogue is not consistent with the actions of the vulcans in any series including the very one she is in. They are explorers in tng, ds9, enterprise, and discovery
Discovery is considered prime time line by some interested parties but that is not official in any way. You must understand the licensing to determine what is what. CBS owns Star Trek, which they purchased in whole from their partnership with Desilu Productions, which had produced the series. CBS has sold licensing to Paramount and to Bad Robot.
Paramount produced the ten movies from ST:TMP through ST: Nemesis. Paramount also produced four television series: TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT. All of these adhered to the prime timeline. Then, after the utter failure of Nemesis and the eroding ratings of Enterprise, a cooling off period took place. Paramount then worked on new concepts from Academy to some sort of Federation-Klingon War set between the TOS and TMP productions in the time line. Nothing came of these.
Then, JJ Abrams at the head of Bad Robot, which was producing various television series' for ABC such as Alias, Fringe, Lost, etc., formed a partnership with Paramount and Warner Brothers to produce a variety of products, none of which were Star Trek.
In 2007, general talk at Paramount concluded that Star Trek had had five years off and was ready for new life. It was assumed a project would take one and a half years to bring to the screen but it took a bit over two years. This would be the reboot. It was produced by Bad Robot in partnership with Spyglass.
It was stated that this was not the prime time line and was referred to as the Kelvin time line. Paramount was the distributer only and was not involved in any other aspect of the project. CBS played no part.
The next film saw Spyglass drop out and be replaced by K/O Paper Products and Skydance. Again, Paramount acted only distributor and CBS had no role.
The next film saw four more production companies join the team and K/O dropped out. Again, Paramount served as distributor and CBS played no role.
Finally, we come to ST:D. None of the previous producers were retained. Paramount was not retained. CBS was producer and distributor through CBS Television Studios and CBS Television Distribution, respectively.
CBS has not issued a press statement that ST:D is or is not prime time line but many people working on the product have stated that it is. That is as close as it has gotten to being official, which means it isn't. Still, for many, it is good enough. CBS says through its directors, producers and writers that all of the Star Trek related projects under their license are prime time line from ST:TOS through ST:D. The problem is that CBS only produced ST:D. It owns Star Trek and uses ST:TOS as a foundation, but that is it.
The Kelvin Time line movies - three and counting - form their own timeline.
That leaves all of the Paramount productions, ten movies, four live series, one animated series, plus sharing ST:TOS through a licensing agreement with CBS.
CBS considers Discovery to be part of their prime time line. Paramount does not consider Discovery or the Kelvin time line movies to be part of theirs.
Thus there are three time lines out there and all claim prime status.
While I may disagree with how canon is scored, you simply cannot something that happens on screen. What T'Pol says is valid, whether you accept it or not. Vulcan was definitely not an explorer culture in the ENT era. They did take on aspects of exploration once the Kir Shara was found and revolutionized Vulcan ideology and society, but that was after T'Pol's proclamations made during the show.
Canon is currently determined by CBS and Paramount.
Canon is determined by the producers and they do not have to agree. They can violate pre-existing canon if they choose or stick to it as much as they like. Surely, you are able to understand that. CBS owns Star Trek, but that only means they can extend the license or not and decide what is an official product or not. The Production companies are the ones that decide canon because CBS has stated that Star Trek canon is:
In order of rank:1) Visual productions on television and film
2) Spoken dialog when it does not contradict visual evidence3) One episode of the animated series dealing with the origins of Spock
That is it. Now what we see on the screen or spoken on screen is determined by the production company NOT CBS unless CBS is the production company as in ST:D. But, each production company sets its own canon and they can choose to adhere to the canon in another production or not. Both the Kelvin and ST:D productions veer from the Paramount canon. There are three time lines and to each producer, each is prime. They just aren't the same prime.
So, It's possible the Discovery line of thought makes sense. The Vulcans would clearly have intel on the Klingons. It is likely they would analyse Klingon culture and interactions with other species, It is possible they realised that culturally Klingons would only respect a worthy opponent, and that they saw everyone as opponents. Another possible set of reasoning is that the Vulcans at the time had such superior tech that each ship they attacked was annihilated. The klingons realised that they had no choice but to sue for peace, not very Klingon, but there are plenty of klingons who were hardly klingon.
+Connor Lang Per the actual episode..they had no Intel
Really? damn, I must've missed a bit. I could've sworn all we got was sarek saying "We shot first". I'm trying desperately to excuse STD's (hehe) earlier flaws, because the recent episodes have been damned good. But that might just be my appreciation of the Teran empire.
i disagree when it comes to the vulcans vs the klingons (first contact) the vulcans have great "monitoring" tech so one could argue that they knew that the klingons were a "warrior" race and violence was the only real aswer
this video is logical.
Remember me? You did it again. The Vulcans were no where near the first species to have access to warp drive. What you're trying to say is the one of the first species that would later become a member of the UFP* to have access to warp drive. Great video man I look forward to more.
Actiaully you're the reason I said 'One of the first Alpha Quadrant Powers' .. I didn't say species. I'm glad you enjoyed the video.
Ok, that's fair. I hear it now. Technically you diddn't say anything inaccurate, I'll give it too you. Cheers.
Yay! I win this round.. I doubt I'll win many, so I shall sit and enjoy this small victory ;) Hope you're well.. Never hesitate to criticize though. I'm not kidding, I changed my verbiage based on your feedback from the last video.
Hey that makes me quite happy. Makes it feel like being far too much of a nerd finally payed off haha.
One of the first who had Warp-drive. But never build up an intergalactic empire. They stayed on there Planet for millenias.
+TOFKAS01 they expanded and had based/colonies.. But it was not a huge expansion...agreed.
Especially when you think that the romulans could emigrate from vulcan thousands of years ago and wennt of into another quadrant of the galaxy. So Vulcan had enough ships to emigrate whole populations.
How can Vulcan be so weak later on since they wee years ahead of humans?
willingly allow themselves to be usurped.
Power behind the throne.
i thought discovery was in jj abrams universe
+Jr GAMING STUDIO nope
Discuss the Vulcan proverb: Only Nixon could go to China.
guiding the fate of those around them whether overtly or subtly.....sounds almost romulan
two sides of the same coin.
indeed, those green blooded hobgoblins have their fingers in everything jim, although im 99% sure lore reloaded is unaffected, in which case i applaud your sociological studies and documentaries, dammit theyve got to me, noooooooooooo!!!!!!! KHHHHAAAAANNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, actually in the mirror universe where everyone is savage would khan be like a messiah preaching kindness or a brutal evil terran dictator?
When there is a difference in sources you should always use the earlier source material. Strangely enough "vulcans": were never mentioned in The Cage, Where No Man Has Gone Before and The Corbomite Maneuver, which are the first 4 episodes. Its only mentioned briefly in Mudd's Women, where we are told Vulcanians are immune from emotion. It is mentioned in the mantrap when we discover it has no moon. ION Balance of terror we discover the Romulens are an offshoot of the Vulcans. We also discover the Vulcans had its aggressive colonising period, like earth? As colonising would occur when planets were colonised and this was aggressive we can assume both Earth and Vulcan went forth to conquer, before become more peaceful. This fact is ignored in most post-1st generation startrek shows/movies. In Dagger Of The Mind we discover Vulcans can probe minds. I am unablwe to locate the quote which indicates Vulcan was never conquest, probably from season 2 or 3. So the first source should be considered as accurate and the 2nd an error.
That is interesting, as in Mantrap the comments was made Vulcan has no moon. Perhaps a moon on another planet in the same system. Its hard to keep all the facts correct after all these years.
Much as I enjoyed the Kirshara trilogy I still can't quite accept what ENT did to the Vulcans and which has carried on into Discovery.
I think Vlass was a Romulan. Totally.
i could see that..
Not the only chip in the united earth
Lore reloaded I would suggest to stay out STD lore for those kinds of videos, at least for now until the discovery series is finished. Just the suggestion
From your lips to god's ears.. the information I'm pulling is from seperate sources which include Startrek.com and CBS/Paramount official sources.. I no more wanted to talk about the vulcans attacking klingons than you wanted to hear it ;P But it's startrek approved canon.. Same as any other resource I would pull. Should we find out that this wasn't the canon timeline, then they went out of their way to lie on official resources.
Well just wanted to suggest to be careful and all, very strange s*** is happening on STD and I wouldn't be surprise If some weird multi-verse/time travel shenanigans will happen down the line in this series... and yea btw in one source(I guess official on tv?) they also said that this is a reboot so hard to tell which is which. My post wasn't to mean't bash or anything, just thinking that maybe be better on safe side not to include STD until we get the full picture(of the whole series).
Och and I Love your videos! :D
+Pandarian300 oh yea..we talk about it on our Sunday live show..I hope it's like an alternate universe thing..you should come hang out sometime :) I didn't take your comment negative..it's good advice.. And not with our merit
Well of course not, nobody wants to hear tales of people catching STDs XD
On a serious note, that's how you know the writers wanted to take Discovery seriously. By having its acronyms be the same as Sexually Transmitted Diseases...
Frankly I do not want a lot of Politics in my Sci Fi , Battle Star Galactica remake was excruciatingly impossible to watch because of all of the Politics and political fighting in the series, if I wanted that I would watch Cspan. And frankly as far as Star Trek goes I don't want to see a bunch Of Maquis infighting or the constant wars like Discovery and the later part of DS9 became about. the Best Star Trek was the well written stories of exploration and adventure with the occasional shot across the Bow. that's why people even today rewatch the original series and tng more than the others
Sounds like Vulcans were always the bridesmaid but never the bride....... ;)
I have to disagree with the notion the Vulcans were one of the first to have warp drive. There are various civilizations that had warp drive long before the Vulcans. It is more accurate to say the Vulcans were one of the major Alpha Quadrant powers. As the Vulcan Hello demonstrates they made the Klingons respect them that they deemed them worthy to talk to. How? Shooting their ships every time they show up in front of a Vulcan High Command ship. Add to the fact according to Q there was a Vulcan-Romulan war at some point means Vulcan can stand up to the big boys from the the Beta Quadrant. If we go by Daniel's database there is Vulcan cruiser descended from the Surak class with three intersecting ring warp drive in the 31st century. Which means Vulcans still had their fleet. Indeed in Voyager and Star Trek 2009 Vulcan High Command was mentioned. Which isn't a surprised A Mirror Darkly implies the Andorian Imperial Guard is still around. The difference with Starfleet is that it was federalized. Switching authority and oversight from United Earth to the Federation. Though Starfleet still kept some old United Earth policies like genetic enhancement on Humans a crime. Note a Federation station on TNG wasn't subject to Earth law hence genetic experiments were allowed.
.. I literally said 'Vulcans are one of the first Alpha Quadrant Powers to have Warp Drive'
Also, as I stated in the previous video (part 1 of this) a Vulcan-Romulan war appears to be a huge continuity issue.. though people have tried to justify it ;P
I think the Imperial Guard and the Vulcan High Command are legacy components of their pre Federation status. They probably play different roles from SF, but still under command of the Federation it self.
I think in Ds9, I heard one of the admirals say the Bajoran militia needs to be integrated into SF.
The smaller races like Bajoran, would have only small fleets, and would be easy enough to integrate into SF.
If the Klingons ever joined the Federation as full on members (not associate) the IDF would most likely still exist. But would be restructured to make it more Federation friendly.
We can talk about politics but related to a star trek storyline
+Attie Pollard indeed. In fact I welcome that. But if you are going to ask me what I think about trump or Hillary.. Or if I found Roddenberry to be a lying racist.. You are on the wrong channel.. If that makes sense?
Lore Reloaded I'll let Roddenberry be because everyone got there issues. But bring up a subject from star trek that is related to current or past events in the world or US and we can have fun with it. Let's hope the people can act like adults and be respectful. And please look at it from an independent POV
one of the best DS9 episodes is a very direct look into the mind of somebody who worked in a nazi concentration camp, and it was brilliant.
+Attie Pollard yea..agreed. I don't mind getting into things of slavery ...genocide..being a Nazi..if it's in the lore. This channel is a lore channel though..not a political one. I have no interest in Agendas. That doesnt mean there isn't good discussion to be had..just not this channel. We actually will delve into this stuff on the live shows..you should come hang out sometime
Enterprise wrecked canon badly. The Vulcans, as portrayed in that show, would have conquered and subjugated Earth - and they would have thought that they were doing the galaxy a favor by doing so. The weapons and technology of the Vulcans were leaps and bounds superior to that of humanity; so the Vulcans would have defeated Earth without breaking a sweat. The Vulcans on that show viewed humans as being a trouble-making nuisance who should be subjugated for the good of all.
If any Federation had been formed at all, certainly the headquarters would not have been on Earth. By the time Kirk and Spock came on the scene, Earth would have been a minor member of the Federation. Either that, or Earth would have been easily conquered by the Klingons, since they were also greatly superior to Earth in weapons technology.
so in space attack first.......planet side you bitch slap'em first
I'm with McCoy on Vulcans. They are a beneficial species, even a friend of Humans. I even applaud what the Vulcans did in all ways, even what they do internally on a personal level every day. But, in general, I think of them as "green-blooded hobgoblins."
Do you think the founders would be as hostile to the Vulcan as they were other races? Just a side thought
I do, they didn't like any solids.
Logic alone never leads to ethics or morality.
I agree
STD is so terrible and all over the place that it should not be considered a reliable canon source period.
Yeah. Thinks Discovery. I think the writers of that show need to google the definition of logic. It isn’t lack of emotions. Politics suck.