Hi Marc, I just got my Pro 500 with flow control and the flow control knob when fully close is at the 10-11 o clock position. Is the install correct? Also, when closing the valve do I need to be careful on how tight so I don’t damage gasket of any kind inside?
Hi Andre, You can loosen the black knob on the flow control and lift off the sleeve and orient so fully closed is at any position. If you do that, be sure there's a slight gap between the bottom of the sleeve and top of the mushroom cap. Need clearance there so valve can close completely. Also know that stock flow rate is 1.25 turns open from the closed - no flow position. Hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Hey Marc! I was able to adjust the know orientation to closed at 3 o clock. Just like you said unscrew black knob and I used an Alan wrench to unscrew pin holding sleeve. Next I plan on jotting down my different flow rates at different turn positions
@@drewksidetour Wonderful, Knowing your flow rates is a good thing. Not sure If I've shared this with you, but just in case here's a video and article with some easy flow profiles and more in-depth info on flow: Better Espresso Using Easy Flow Profiling Methods: th-cam.com/video/a-QAOo8Vg5A/w-d-xo.html Intro to Calculating Flow Rate on E61 Group Machines: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Have some delicious fun! Marc
Dear team, I hope you are well. I have the Proftic 700 and recently started dripping a lot of water from the flow control down the bottom. Is this something that can be fixed? please advise on this matter
Hi s, drips are usually an easy fix. Is the leaking up near the flow control? If so, tightening the large nut just below the flow adjustment should stop that. If it's from the bottom of the E61 group at the exhaust port it may be a seal inside the group itself which needs servicing.
Hi Mark. I am very behind on this video. I can't understand, the brewing time is 25-30 sec. Isn't it necessary? And does it make sense to adjust the grind 18 gr. 26 sec. 36 gr. espresso rotation control 1.4
Hey LD, Not sure I fully understand the question. Extraction timing is the most basic way of dialing in to a reasonable grind size but timing is not the end all! Taste is what counts. Especially when using various flow profiles timing is out the window! Marc
I'm pre infusing at 2 bar and getting some flow. I'll close the flow control then proceed to about 4 bars at a 1/2 turn. This gives me a 41g at around 21 seconds. I never get it up to the 6 bars on the flow control and little to no crema. I'm using a 21g bottomless portafilter. If i do ramp it up to 6 bars it seem like over 1 turn and the pull is pretty fast. I'm grinding a Mexican Chiapas bean currently with a Timemore O78s at the 1/2 grind setting. My Profitec Pro 600 is set at 9 bars.
Hi g, How soon are you getting flow when at 2 bar? My guess is you need to grind finer. When using flow, to do long pre-infusion I usually shoot for a flow rate that will start first drip in ~10-15 seconds. After that make a flow adjustment to a medium rate to complete the extraction. 21 seconds at 4 bar seems quick. Long low flow pre-infusions almost always need a finer grind than same coffee at stock flow rates. Hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I’m going to try adjusting my rpms on the grinder to 1200, I’m currently running at 1000. If that doesn’t work I may need to adjust the pins on the burrs for a finer grind. I’m using medium to lighter roasts. As soon as I open the flow 1/4 turn, it takes about 15-20 seconds. I’d be happy to provide a video of what I’m doing.
I just received my new 500 Pro PID with the flow control pre installed. The pressure on the pump is set at around 11-12 bars, if using the flow control, do I really need to turn down the pump pressure to 10bar as recommend or just control it with the flow control and have a little more pump pressure behind it in case I need it?
HinC, Thanks for the question. There's no incredsible magic that happens at 9 bars. 9 bar is the dogmatic standard based on what the first machines used decades ago. Flow rate is (in the opinion of most) far more important than a particular brew pressure. Also understand that 11-12 bar on the machine pressure gauge will get you about 10-11 bar at the group due to pressure losses in piping etc. You can definitely use flow control to control to control the pressure if desired. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks for the response! I ended up adjusting it down to 10 and with the gauge on the group head seems to be maybe 9.5 with the blank so seems like it's maintaining pressure through the system pretty well. Still kind of learning how to use the flow control but it's making great shots so far in general!
If getting a 700 with pressure profiling can I still run it without messing with the profiling every single shot? Or do I need to get my fingers up there esch time?
Hi Sebastian, Thanks for the question. Yes you can set and forget the flow control on the Pro 700. To get the stock flow rate on any ECM or Profitec machine with flow cotrol set the valve to 1.25 turns open from the closed no flow position. Here's a link to an article about flow control and flow rates at various valve positions: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Marc
Marc, I've seen in these videos you are typically getting 9 bar pressure at the group when you get 10 bar internal, which makes sense to me. On my machine, a brand new Pro 500 PID, I am getting a solid 10 bar at the group when it is showing 10 bar internal. Do you have any idea why that would be? Also when doing a long pre-infusion, it seems to ramp up to that 10 bar pretty quickly when I get close to 1/2 turn open.
Hi RG, Here's an article with graphs of 5 different flow profiles showing time and settings: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Marc
Usually the pump has an OPV so it won't stress it much more than usual (water will still flow from the reservoir through the pump then the OPV). When you brew coffee the excess flow always goes through the same cycle. You can see this even if you have a single boiler machine like a rancilio silvia, they all work the same, with some notable exceptions.
Hi Marc, I just had my Profitec 700 fitted with Flow control, but when I fully closed the flow control valve and turn the pump fully, the water was still dripping. I tried to adjust like in your video, but could not move it at all. So, I asked the shop where i bought it from, they told me it is normal if it is still dripping water ........ is this true? I showed them your video and they said the new model of profitec with flow control is like this. ie. water will still come out little when flow control is fully closed and the pump machine is turned on. Please advice.
Hi yg, Water dripping is not normal. FYI, we developed the flow control device in conjunction with ECM/Profitec. You should be able to loosen the flow control knob, raise the sleeve it's attached to a bit, then tighten the knob. This gives clearance between bottom of sleeve and top of E61 group to allow the valve to fully close. One other possibility is an internal obstruction in the valve prevent full closure. Here's a very in-depth video on cleaning and calibrating the flow control device: th-cam.com/video/Bxh1ik-orFA/w-d-xo.html Marc
It drives me nuts that they decided to side mount the wands on the PP600. It kills any advantage to the more compact design because I still have to accommodate the extra width. Any idea why they decided to do that? Is it possible to replace them with bottom mounted wands?
Hi Danny, Thanks for the question. Yes it gives you all the capabilities you'd have on a rotary pump machine. I use it on vibe pump machine like the ECM Classika and Profitec Pro 500 and 600. More info on flow control including flow rate graph for vibe pump machines and graphs of useful profiles here: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Marc
Hey dear I need bit help how I can reduce the water flow is coming to much and the coffee comes very liquid. I buy the machine 1 month ago Pro 700… please if you can help me god bless 🙏🏻…
When are you going to get the flow control in stock? I bought my machine pro 600 back in Dec 2018 which did not have this feature been waiting for that to be back in stock for a while now
Hi Efran, Demand has been high for the FCD. We are working with Profitec/ECM to get more in-stock to offer for individual retrofits and hope to have soon. Marc
Whole Latte Love hey, Marc. Count this old man in for retro-fitting a FC on my PP500 when they come available. Informative video btw. Also, any chance you’ll do a video on the La Pavoni? I used one for one year until the base came loose.
Hey Mark - just got my Pro600 with flow control inspired by your videos ! Works great! Q: the calibration towards the end of this video does not seem to work for me - the black handle ball seems to just screw onto the valve without opening or tightening the sleeve - and I can’t move the sleeve up and down at all? Appreciate your comment… Thanks, Andreas
Hi MP, Thanks for the question and happy to inspire! The black ball handle works as a set screw. When it's cranked in tight it may cause a metal burr on the shaft. If it does, the sleeve may be difficult to move. But with some gently applied force it should loosen up. With the ball handle removed gently lever something under the bottom of the sleeve. A small flat blade screwdriver should work. might want to wrap the tip of the screwdriver with some electrical tape or similar to protect the finish. Marc
I own an Alex Izzo Duetta IV which is a similar spec dual, boiler machine. I purchased this in preference to ECM and Profitec due to all stainless steel construction. At the price point I think Profitec and ECM top end machines should be all stainless - whereas the chassis appears to be painted mild steel? Correct me if I’m wrong?
Hi Brian, When I was in Italy a couple of years ago I spent a day at the Izzo production facility. While there your machine's namesake Alex Izzo pulled me some lever shots into a saucer to demonstrate the long lasting crema of a very Italian style coffee they were roasting onsite. Top end ECM Synchronika has one of the most unique chassis in the business. It's a single piece front to back and designed in a way which allows all the exterior panels to be removed in less than a minute. It's powder coated. While some ECM Profitec machines are painted frames they do but protective slides in key spots to prevent chipping. Marc
In case when calibrating Profitec Pro 500 there has to be performed one more step not mentioned on the video. On his video Marc was showing the calibration done on Profitec Pro 700 where loosening a black ball on the flow valve allows one to adjust/calibrate the valve. On Profitec Pro 500 it is necessary to remove a black handle ball from the valve's shaft. In fact the black ball is a decorative finish to the valve's control shaft. After removing the ball you will see a shaft of the valve. At its tip you will notice a nest that can be adjusted using an Allen key. I have used the 5/32" key and was able to loosen the top of the valve. I raised it up a bit and secured its higher position with a thin piece of plastic and secured (screwed it back) the shaft of the valve using the said Allen key. Then I checked the water flow on a completely closed flow valve. It didn't run, so I figured the adjustment was correct. After that I reinstalled the black ball thus completing a calibration of a flow valve on my Profitec Pro 500 machine. Before the calibration, water on my machine was running on a completely closed valve. I hope my tip will be of some help.
Ah cool thanks I was really confused. Mine closes up fine, but the handle points off to the left at an odd angle prefer to have it clocked as he has it in the video.
I have the old knob which doesn’t allow it to fully close it, I thought you were going to send updated handles to everyone that ordered the older style?
Mark, can you answer my three questions and put my mind to rest? That first shot you pulled would be called Gentle and Sweet in the Decent Espresso world minus the grouphead temperature control which you can't have in the E61 group. If I had kept up with your videos three years ago, I might have just added flow control to my ECM instead of purchasing the Decent. Even though I don't regret buying my Decent for a second, my standard drink hardly pushes Decent's capabilities at all. However, I did get to do all that experimenting with making espresso that a person could ever want and learned a great deal. Nowadays, I use a modified lever profile from Damian(big deal Decent programmer) for my Americanos. (1) So I gather Flow Control was pretty much a WLL initiative that got it installed on E61 machines. (2) IMO, the big puzzle is why this wasn't done by all these manufacturers of E61 machines 40 years ago. It truly seems like a no brainer and so relatively easy to do. If for no other reason than to just emulate a standard lever profile. I'm sure current coffee profiles were simply unheard or imagined 40 years ago with the exception of the lever profile but why it wasn't done sooner baffles me. (3) Why the little knob control versus a paddle control? A paddle would make a terrific sales photo. (4) Is the paddle on the Slayer doing the same thing with a needle valve?
Hey Mark/WLL! How is the flow control different from the handle that turns on the water? My understanding was that the handle that turns on the water can allow for a slower addition of water into the portafilter by turning the handle to a 45 degree angle or so. Do some handles just function as an on/off valve vs a variable valve? Is the addition in the video more of a way to produce more incremental flow rate of water into the group head itself? Thanks in advance for the clarification!
Hi Benson, Thanks for a great question on a topic that is often misunderstood! The main lever of the E61 group does have a position which allows flow prior to the pump being turned on. What happens in that position depends on the machine used. (But it is not a variable valve) Some will drop a limited amount of water with no pressure and pre-wet the coffee. This happens on HX boiler machines and plumbed in machines which close off the plumbed waterline until the pump turns on - those machines have a solenoid valve cutting off line pressure to the machine unless the pump is running. Plumbed in machines like the Pro 700 and ECM Synchronika are open to line pressure even with the pump off. So those machines can do line pressure pre-infusion which continues indefinitely when the over is raised to just before the point the pump turns on. Pressure will eventually reach whatever pressure is in the plumbed line. Why it’s important to use an adjustable pressure reducer like this on those machines: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-inline-pressure-reduce-m-3-8-x-f-3-8-2-8-bar The Flow Control Device is a way of introducing variable flow/pressure within the group. Hope that helps! Marc
Mark, I'm new to prosumer espresso market and reviewed many products. I like the Profitec Pro 700 for quality and function. It seems the best machine would allow the Pro 700 functionality but also allow you to "lock in" the settings (via PID?) for different beans. Otherwise, you'd need an Excel sheet and constant knob adjustments to repeat the configuration. Am I missing something? Is there a machine that does this?
I installed FC on my Pro700. It shuts off fine, but just a tick open and its flows over 2.5 g/s, 1/4 turn about6 g/s, at 1/3 turn it is about 7.5g/s and 2/3 almost 11g/s. So very poor modulation. Is the valve itself able to be adjusted or is something faulty with the valve?
Hi Greg, Thanks for the question. Are you sure the valve is totally closing? A hair/tick open should not give a 2.5g/s rate. If you totally close and turn pump on are you seeing flow? If so loosen the control knob so the sleeve over the FC shaft can raise up/down. Continue turning closed with that loose until no flow. Hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks Marc. Yes I can turn so there is no flow and then just a crack and it pours out quite quickly. Wondering if there is an internal spring that may have been missed. The thread pitch is very coarse so the opening increases quickly without any other restriction.
Hi Anson, Thanks for the question. No. All machines at this level have OPVs (over pressure valves) or pressure bypasses on rotary pump machines. These adjustable controls limit pressure build up in the brew system hydraulics. These are typically set to bleed pressure at 10 bar in vibration pump machine and 9 bar in rotary pump machines. Marc
Trying to decide between the Profitec Pro 700 or the ECM Synchronika. Do you have a video that compares the two? Besides gauge placement and joysticks vs rotating knobs, any other difference??
Hi Jaime, Thanks for the question and I apologize for the delayed response. Things have been a little crazy here in NY as elsewhere dealing with current events! Internally the Pro 700 and ECM Synchronika are identical. There even made in the same production facility in Italy. Besides knobs and gauges the key differences: Synchronika has more detail/refinement of external housing and a unique construction which allows removal of panels in under 60 seconds. It also has angled portafilters. Straight handles on the Pro 700. Synchronika's PID display is colored to better match the mirror finish of the machine. Other than that specs like boiler volumes, max steam pressures, etc are identical. If interested in a deeper dive into flow profiles be sure and watch this video featuring 5 distinct profiles performed on the Pro 700: th-cam.com/video/_8lNz2rL5l8/w-d-xo.html Hope that helps! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I hope the team there and your loved ones are all safe and stay healthy. That will always be the first priority. On the question I posted here, I did send an email as well and your team replied quickly. So no worries on the response time to the post on the video. All good. I will order the Synchronika as soon as this situation calms down. Shift in priorities as you can imagine. For now I will continue to use my old Rocket Cellini Evoluzione V1...
Hi Marc, does having flow control on a HX machine (for instance ECM Mechanika V Slim) reduce the negatives of not having a PID for changing between light and dark roasts, as well as reducing brightness in a fresh roast?
Recently visited the WHoleLatteLove site to get the flow control kit for a Profitec Pro 500 PID, which said out of stock. While checking with a service associate was told that the kits were no longer available and could only get it by buying a new machine with it already installed...Do you no longer offer that as an upgrade for us who already own machines? If true, where might I go to get an upgrade kit?
Physically and by using Bernoulli's equation, pressure and flow rate are related through the velocity.. etc. In here, can we have a solid relation/formula in which I can know exactly how much the flow by applying a certain formula and use the readable pressure from the GH pressure gauge? Do you consider this add on a mean of pressure profiling?! Kinda confusing for me.... Plz explain
Hi Saeed, Pressure and flow are related. But I do not think it's possible to determine the flow rate based on pressure. Pressure depends on the restriction provided by the coffee grind in the filter basket. Example: If there is no coffee in the filter basket a pressure gauge in the group will read zero bar. But with the flow control device on a rotary pump machine I could set the flow rate anywhere from 0g/s closed to 28g/s fully open and the gauge will always read 0 bar. Another example with dialed in grind coffee in the basket: I set the flow rate to say 4g/s. As pressure builds at the start of the extraction it will likely reach the pressure set at the OPV internally. For most machines that will be 9 bar. As the grind gives up solids the pressure in the group as observed on a group mounted gauge will start to decrease yet the flow rate will stay the same. I consider this flow profiling and not pressure profiling. But one could use the flow control device to do pressure profiling if desired by watching the group mounted pressure gauge and using that information and control pressure by adjusting the flow. Marc
I just ordered my Flow control apparatus for the Profitec 700. What does this do to the brew time I have been taught to keep between 25 and 35 seconds?
Hi Steven thanks for the question. Think you'll be very interested in this video in which I use a very low flow initially to tame the bite of a fresh Yirgacheffe: th-cam.com/video/HTaly8c-i_U/w-d-xo.html Total time from pump on with a 15 second low flow pre-infusion was ~38 seconds ending at a 1:2 brew ratio. Shots were pulled on an ECM Synchronika which is nearly identical to your Pro 700 internally. Timing is a basic parameter to get extractions in the ballpark. Marc
I want to make sure I understand this correctly - I can actually do a low-pressure infusion on reservoir (not line pressure) with the flow control device? Let's for example say - I want to pre-infuse at 1 bar for 10 seconds before starting higher pressure extraction. That's possible?
Hi Anson, Yes you understand correctly! One of my favorite flow profiles is similar to your example. Mine is about 15 seconds with the flow valve open one quarter turn. Pressure rises to ~2 bar after 15 seconds. At first drip I open the valve another quarter turn to a medium flow of ~4-5g/s. This profile is perfect for fresh from roast (1st couple weeks) single origin specialty coffees. It tames the brightness/acidity that's typical with those coffees. A few weeks ago I did a series of five extended live streams. Each featured a different flow profile for a particular coffee situation. If interested here's a link to a playlist of those live streams: th-cam.com/play/PLaBDDfOHAAC2tlvMR2WZSLjizjGrcIT7H.html Marc
Hi Marc, the flow control looks great, but the one question I have while watching the video revolves around the PID. When you engage the main lever on the Profitec Pro 700 or the ECM Synchronika the timer on the PID starts to count the seconds of extraction, but you haven’t started the actual extraction yet until you open the flow control valve. What’s the best way to utilize the flow control and the shot clock, given the difference in time between switching the main lever and opening the flow control valve?
Hi Dave, Great question. For me, when using the FCD the shot timer becomes more of a reference. Like I ran at a low flow for x seconds then went to x bar pressure at the group for x seconds and so on. In basic extraction the timer is useful to get an idea if one is in the ballpark for grind size etc. But timing is the most basic reference. Marc
Great video. Thx. Having trouble deciding between Pro 600 and 700 (both with FC). 1-2 people usage, so not generally high volume. Not sure if will plumb, but flirting with the option. Might like for future. Would swallow the cost difference if performance difference is noticeable: pump/boiler size/plumbing.
Hi Steven. Thanks for the comment and question. At your usage rate the biggest difference is the pump and plumbing. Vibration in the 600 and not plumbable, rotary and plumbable in the 700. Rotary pumps sound a lot nicer of course and have a higher stock flow rate of ~11g/s vs ~8g/s for vibe pump machines. If the 700 is plumbed it can do line pressure pre-infusion. You can accomplish nearly the same thing on the 600 using flow control. If you happen to like darker roasts or classic Italian style bean blends the stronger pump in the 700 can be beneficial as those type of coffees often react well to initially high flow and pressure. Also have to say never filling a reservoir on plumbed machines is wonderful! May seem like a small thing to some, but a never ending water supply and easy in-line water filtration (if needed) is nice. I really dislike filling reservoirs. They always seem to run dry at the worst possible time! Hope that helps! Marc
Hi D's C, Thanks for the question. Yes, the flow control works well on vibration pump machines. We currently offer it on machines with vibration pumps like the Pro 600, Pro 500 and ECM Classika single boiler. Here's a recent video with a technical comparison of triple bottomless shots with and without flow control from a fresh from roast Yirgacheffe coffee: th-cam.com/video/HTaly8c-i_U/w-d-xo.html Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks Mark for your answer and I would love to see more videos on the profitec pro 600 like more in depth. I know that you have some videos but why not :)
Hi Matt, That should work. You might consider an Acaia scale which beyond weighing output for brew ratios starts a timer at first drip into your cup. Shot timing is fairly basic. Brew ratios can tell you a lot more! Here's a video with an Acaia scale doing brew ratios. The scale can connect to app on smartphone/tablet to log extractions which is also demoed in the video: th-cam.com/video/HTaly8c-i_U/w-d-xo.html Here's a link to the Acaia scale used in video: www.wholelattelove.com/products/acaia-lunar-espresso-scale Hope that helps! Marc
Mark I'm a newby looking for an upgrade for my Starbucks Barista. Considering a machine with either an E61 group OR a PID. My question is, does one work better than the other? If you were choosing, which feature would you choose? Am I correct in assuming that a well implemented E61 group would reduce of eliminate the need for a PID?
Hi Kerry, Thanks for the question. The E61 and PID are not mutually exclusive. The majority of E61 group machines have PID these days. Without PID boiler temps are controlled by a pressure stat which produces a relatively large swing in boiler temps and therefore brew temps. Machines with a heat-exchange boiler and no PID usually require a short flush prior to brewing to remove overheated brew water. Machines like the Profitec Pro 500 in this video which have a heat-exchange boiler, PID and E61 group are balanced so no flush is required. Marc
I have been told that the combination of a vibration pump with a flow control is not ideal, namely that vibration pumps would not handle the demand for flow control in the long run and probably succumb. What are your thoughts on this? I considering to buy an espresso machine that is compatible with flow control and, since I mostly drink espresso, a single boiler (e.g., ECM classica). However, if I want a rotary pump for proper flow control i should probably buy a Heat exchange or dual boiler machine, since I don't know a rotary pump, single boiler machine. What would you recommend and do you agree that a vibration-flow control combination is not ideal?
Hey kevin, Thaks for the question. No doubt that a rotary pump is more robust than a vibration pump. But, I've had no reports of issues with vibe pumps on machines with flow control like the Classika or Profitec Pro 500 and 600. I think the Classika is an excellent choice if you're mainly about the espresso. If the pump should have an issue they are cheap and easy to replace but I do not think flow control will cause problems. Marc
The vibration pumps on the PP's have a cut off circuit in them if they run too long before they would be damaged, also the OPV will still be in effect and won't let pressure build up past it's setting so I don't see where using flow control would be much worse for it than say doing a backflush with a blank basket. If you are really into doing super long shots with really low pressure, maybe give it a min or so between shots to be safe?
Hi dj1, Yes! We've tested in Rocket, Expobar and others. Works on all so far. They've been in high demand. We are currently out of stock but have more on the way. You can check for availability here if interested: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-e61-flow-control-device Marc
Hi Marc Thanks for the video. I installed it i my Appartamento and it works perfectly. One question, since Appartamento doesn’t have pump pressure gauge, is it possible to adjust pump pressure and use pressure gauge from fcd as reference? Would that show real pump pressure when using blind filter? Best regards
Hi LD, Thanks for letting us know the FCD is working well on your Appartamento! Yes, it is possible to use the group mounted gauge for pressure adjustment using the blind filter basket. It’s actually a more accurate reading than a machine gauge would be. On vibration pump machines we usually adjust pressure to 10 bar on a machine gauge to produce 9 bar at the group. Using the group gauge one would adjust to 9 bar. Marc
Whole Latte Love Thank you Marc. Your answer helped me a lot. Pressure on the gauge showed 10,5 bars. That was obviously to hi. I reduced to 9 bars on the group gauge. Much better now. Best regards
So if I’ve dialed in all my grind parameters with a given mostly open flow rate (I set mine to be roughly 6 gm per sec), and then I do a pre-infusion, how do I turn it to the same mostly open position (6 gm per second)? Flow control is neat to me. I struggle to understand how to use it with consistent results.
Hi Brigette, Thanks for the question. Yes we have and it works on all E61 groups we have tried. At this point the Flow Control Device is in high demand so we are working with Profitec/ECM to get more to enable individual sales for retrofit into existing machines. Marc
Hey marc can you please guide me in an espresso machine selection? Option 1 is the gs3 by la marzocco option 2 is ecm syncronika. Any difference in shot quality and performance? I really like the volumetric of the gs3 help!
Hi B, if considering the LM GS3 I’d take a long hard look at the Dalla Corte Mina: www.wholelattelove.com/products/dalla-corte-mina-110v It’s in the same price range as the GS3 but IMO a more capable machine with programmable flow profiling - so it’s repeatable! GS3 is manual so repeating the perfect shot when you hit it is difficult.Marc
Great vid as usual. Saw some responses re other manufactures but what about Rocket e61? Can this kit/mushroom work for those as well? Have a mozzafiatio. Thanks much.
Hi David, Yes the Pro 500 can be retrofit with flow control. At the moment we are out of stock - it’s been very popular! We are working with Profitec/ECM to get in more kits for retrofit. Marc
Hey Patrick if you are interested in flow control here's an article with more info on flow rates at various valve positions and graphs of 5 flow profiles: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I am indeed! Actually just bought a 700 pro with flow control from you guys. Replaced my Breville DB which was great but not built to last. Got sick of replacing seals once a year and zero breville support. The profitec is amazing. Thanks!!
Hi Mark from Australia, Demand has been high for the FCD. We are working with Profitec/ECM to get more in-stock to offer for individual retrofits and hope to have soon. Marc
Hi Peter, We've tested in Rocket machines with E61 and it's worked without issue. We hope to have upgrade kits available soon. Supply not keeping up with demand at the moment. Marc
Hi Bonesoda, I put this in another comment but there’s this… I hope to get a video out in the next couple of weeks with examples of how to use flow control in a variety of situations. In the meantime here are some basic suggestions. A little low pressure pre-infusion can help swell the coffee prior to application of full pressure to reduce chances of channeling thru the puck. For specialty coffees like 100% Arabica single origins that have been on the shelf a little longer hitting with full flow at the start and then tailing off flow at the end can help improve flavor. Filter/drip style coffee: Use a drip grind size un-tamped and a very low flow rate to produce a 6oz/180ml coffee in ~60 seconds. A real opportunity to work with brew temps with that one. Lower the Brew temp toward 195F/91C if getting bitter notes. Increase brew temp for sour notes. I’ll have more coming up! Marc
Great video Marc and it looks like the new pre- infusion control works well. The obvious question is why has it taken so long for this improvement to land? Does this effectively make the Profitec Pro 700 competitive with the GS3MP?
Hi Brian, The FCD has been around for a few years now. It's something we helped make happen working in conjunction with Profitec/ECM. IMO FC opens up extraction possibilities beyond the GS3. Check out some things you can do with flow control in this article which includes profile graphs and more: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines Marc
Hi e, Thanks for the question. Depending on availability it may be possible. With limited supply due to high demand and virus related production delays we are limiting individual sale to customers who purchased their machine from us. If that's you contact Customer Support directly via email, phone, chat to order: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/contact-us
I am a little disappointed that the flow control on the new 700 that was just delivered is not calibrated correctly. Shut off is not really shut off. I guess I figured you guys would have checked that out before shipping the new machine.
Hi TC H, Sorry to hear of your disappointment. It may have slipped in shipping. It's super easy to set as shown in the video. When you set it up you can position the valve handle to your preference for shutoff position. Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Yes sir. I have it shutting down completely now. I'm still getting used to the new machine. I'll probably have more questions in the future. Thank you for the quick response.
Marc, thank you for your instructional and informational video, well done. As a consumer who currently own a Quick Mill Anita for over 12 years I decided to go high tech so I am currently considering the Profitec Pro 700 with the Flow Control Device. It appears that the Pro 700 Espresso Machine doesn’t come with an app like the Dalla Corte Mina Espresso Machine which I consider an important and helpful element for this Flow Control device? With an app you would be able to create and save a flow profile for the different coffee beans and also the app would provide a graph that would be helpful in visualizing the flow profiling process. Is Profitec planning on creating an app for this machine and if so, how soon would it be available? Does the Profitec Pro 700 manual provide instruction on the utilization of this Flow Control Device? An app for this machine would be such a great tool enhancement. It would make the Flow Control Device so much more appealing, enjoyable, and fun and being able to use this device to its fullest potential and opening up a world of all sorts of experimentation and being able to visualize the results. Grazie !!!
Hi Alberto, You are welcome for the video and thank you for the kind comment and question! The flow control device on the Pro 700 is manually operated. In it's current configuration there no easy way to electronically control. As mentioned in the video Profitec is always innovating so not out of the question they could implement an internal flow control with sensors. I have no information if it is being considered. Also know machine manufacturers are very tight lipped about what they are working on due to competition. I've worked with the Dalla Corte Mina quite a bit over the past few months and it is an impressive machine - also nearly 3X the price of the 700. Marc
Hi The VP, I have not specifically tested the FCD on your machine but have yet to find an E61 group in which it does not work. Here a link to a video playlist of mine which includes 5 videos with very specific flow profiles. They were live streams so can be long. If you watch any might want to scrub ahead to get to the meat of the presentations. th-cam.com/play/PLaBDDfOHAAC2tlvMR2WZSLjizjGrcIT7H.html Marc
Mark all is well worked with QM and I tagged whole latte love in my IG and working really well the ECM kit is awesome. Made a huge difference already and really excited with the upgrade. Thanks
Hi DD, Yes it will. We've installed the FCD in E61 groups from many machine manufacturers including Rocket Espresso and have yet to find one in which it does not work. Marc
Hi Jim, Thanks for a great question. I hope to get a video out in the next couple of weeks with examples of how to use flow control in a variety of situations. In the meantime here are some basic suggestions. A little low pressure pre-infusion can help swell the coffee prior to application of full pressure to reduce chances of channeling thru the puck. For specialty coffees like 100% Arabica single origins that have been on the shelf a little longer hitting with full flow at the start and then tailing off flow at the end can help improve flavor. Filter/drip style coffee: Use a drip grind size un-tamped and a very low flow rate to produce a 6oz/180ml coffee in ~60 seconds. A real opportunity to work with brew temps with that one. Lower the Brew temp toward 195F/91C if getting bitter notes. Increase brew temp for sour notes. I’ll have more coming up! Marc
I love this so much. I'm looking to upgrade and I can't stand the thought of simply pressing a single button to brew espresso. This looks amazing! One question: is there a default flow setting that you can use when first trying new coffees or do you have to use the flow control every time? I guess maybe the default is just fully open? Thanks for the great video!
Hi John, Thanks for the question and I apologize for a delayed response. Things have been a little crazy around here as we deal with current events! But, your timing is excellent. I posted a video a couple of days ago with more detail on calibrating flow rates. Video includes details of 5 different flow profiles to try based on coffee you are using and other variables. One note: I would never run with the flow valve wide open. When wide open flow rate can be as high as 30g/sec compared to typical flow rates of 10 - 13g/sec from E61 group with stock mushroom valve. Here's a link to that video with calibration and 5 profiles: th-cam.com/video/_8lNz2rL5l8/w-d-xo.html Enjoy! Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks for sharing that. I had no idea that the flow control valve would open beyond the stock default setting. It sure looks like a lot of fun!
Hi n, ETA for new stock of Pro 500s is 4/20/21. It's a very popular machine. As one can imagine pandemic has resulted in increased demand and lower than anticipated production due to supply chain issues and lockdowns. The machine is made in Milan, Italy an area hit very hard by the pandemic. Marc
Hi Rien, Thanks for the comment. Flow and pressure are definitely related and you can use the FCD to pressure profile by chasing pressures on the group gauge. Profitec/ECM does consider the device as controlling flow. Forgetting about grind size opening the FCD to a certain position produces a consistent flow rate. Prior to the FCD pressure in the brew circuit is constant regardless of the FCD setting. So the FCD allows brew water to flow from the constant pressure source. That’s different than a pressure profiling machine like the Rocket Espresso R Nine One which measures pressure with a transducer and modifies pump speed to produce a desired pressure on the coffee. Marc
Hi, agree both are related. But the only thing you control is pressure. Take a Decent machine, it can control flow to be constant, independant whether the resistance of the puck changes due to degradation or channeling.
What's the difference between all three of those units? You said the 700 is to be plumbed. One has a water reservoir. Those machines are really expensive. If you're working with a 30% profit margin, how about a 20% discount? Lol 😉😉
Hi William, Good luck with that :) P700 is plumbable direct to waterline or can run from reservoir, rotary pump, dual boilers, PID, steam boiler up to 2 bar pressure. P600 is a compact dual boiler, PID, vibration pump, reservoir only, steam boiler to 2 bar pressure. P500 is HX boiler, reservoir only, PID, vibration pump. Marc
Hi Marc, I just got my Pro 500 with flow control and the flow control knob when fully close is at the 10-11 o clock position. Is the install correct? Also, when closing the valve do I need to be careful on how tight so I don’t damage gasket of any kind inside?
Hi Andre, You can loosen the black knob on the flow control and lift off the sleeve and orient so fully closed is at any position. If you do that, be sure there's a slight gap between the bottom of the sleeve and top of the mushroom cap. Need clearance there so valve can close completely. Also know that stock flow rate is 1.25 turns open from the closed - no flow position.
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks Marc, I’ll try that and get back to you!
@@drewksidetour perfect!
@@Wholelattelovepage Hey Marc! I was able to adjust the know orientation to closed at 3 o clock. Just like you said unscrew black knob and I used an Alan wrench to unscrew pin holding sleeve. Next I plan on jotting down my different flow rates at different turn positions
@@drewksidetour Wonderful, Knowing your flow rates is a good thing. Not sure If I've shared this with you, but just in case here's a video and article with some easy flow profiles and more in-depth info on flow:
Better Espresso Using Easy Flow Profiling Methods: th-cam.com/video/a-QAOo8Vg5A/w-d-xo.html
Intro to Calculating Flow Rate on E61 Group Machines: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines
Have some delicious fun!
Marc
Dear team, I hope you are well. I have the Proftic 700 and recently started dripping a lot of water from the flow control down the bottom. Is this something that can be fixed? please advise on this matter
Hi s, drips are usually an easy fix. Is the leaking up near the flow control? If so, tightening the large nut just below the flow adjustment should stop that. If it's from the bottom of the E61 group at the exhaust port it may be a seal inside the group itself which needs servicing.
Hi Mark. I am very behind on this video. I can't understand, the brewing time is 25-30 sec. Isn't it necessary? And does it make sense to adjust the grind 18 gr. 26 sec. 36 gr. espresso rotation
control 1.4
Hey LD, Not sure I fully understand the question. Extraction timing is the most basic way of dialing in to a reasonable grind size but timing is not the end all! Taste is what counts. Especially when using various flow profiles timing is out the window!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thank you, taste is more important than cooking time. Got it.
@@Wholelattelovepage 🙏❤️
I'm pre infusing at 2 bar and getting some flow. I'll close the flow control then proceed to about 4 bars at a 1/2 turn. This gives me a 41g at around 21 seconds. I never get it up to the 6 bars on the flow control and little to no crema. I'm using a 21g bottomless portafilter. If i do ramp it up to 6 bars it seem like over 1 turn and the pull is pretty fast. I'm grinding a Mexican Chiapas bean currently with a Timemore O78s at the 1/2 grind setting. My Profitec Pro 600 is set at 9 bars.
Hi g, How soon are you getting flow when at 2 bar? My guess is you need to grind finer. When using flow, to do long pre-infusion I usually shoot for a flow rate that will start first drip in ~10-15 seconds. After that make a flow adjustment to a medium rate to complete the extraction. 21 seconds at 4 bar seems quick. Long low flow pre-infusions almost always need a finer grind than same coffee at stock flow rates. Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I’m going to try adjusting my rpms on the grinder to 1200, I’m currently running at 1000. If that doesn’t work I may need to adjust the pins on the burrs for a finer grind. I’m using medium to lighter roasts. As soon as I open the flow 1/4 turn, it takes about 15-20 seconds. I’d be happy to provide a video of what I’m doing.
I just received my new 500 Pro PID with the flow control pre installed. The pressure on the pump is set at around 11-12 bars, if using the flow control, do I really need to turn down the pump pressure to 10bar as recommend or just control it with the flow control and have a little more pump pressure behind it in case I need it?
HinC, Thanks for the question. There's no incredsible magic that happens at 9 bars. 9 bar is the dogmatic standard based on what the first machines used decades ago. Flow rate is (in the opinion of most) far more important than a particular brew pressure. Also understand that 11-12 bar on the machine pressure gauge will get you about 10-11 bar at the group due to pressure losses in piping etc. You can definitely use flow control to control to control the pressure if desired.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Thanks for the response! I ended up adjusting it down to 10 and with the gauge on the group head seems to be maybe 9.5 with the blank so seems like it's maintaining pressure through the system pretty well. Still kind of learning how to use the flow control but it's making great shots so far in general!
If getting a 700 with pressure profiling can I still run it without messing with the profiling every single shot? Or do I need to get my fingers up there esch time?
Hi Sebastian, Thanks for the question. Yes you can set and forget the flow control on the Pro 700. To get the stock flow rate on any ECM or Profitec machine with flow cotrol set the valve to 1.25 turns open from the closed no flow position. Here's a link to an article about flow control and flow rates at various valve positions: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines
Marc
Marc, I've seen in these videos you are typically getting 9 bar pressure at the group when you get 10 bar internal, which makes sense to me. On my machine, a brand new Pro 500 PID, I am getting a solid 10 bar at the group when it is showing 10 bar internal. Do you have any idea why that would be? Also when doing a long pre-infusion, it seems to ramp up to that 10 bar pretty quickly when I get close to 1/2 turn open.
I have the same problem
Hi, with the flow control, do I still need to worry about the weight of the coffee coming out ?
Hi m-j, yes. Shot timing not so much.
Marc
How many seconds were you on each setting of flow contol? Also, whats your water temp?
Hi RG, Here's an article with graphs of 5 different flow profiles showing time and settings: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines
Marc
Can the Bianca type flow control be installed in a ecm machine? I prefer less rotations and a more ergonomic handle
Hi EK, Flow control units for E61 groups are generally interchangeable but I have not persoanlly tried what you suggest.
Marc
I was wondering is this feature a good thing for the pump? I mean how long can you stop the flow before the pump is overloaded?
Usually the pump has an OPV so it won't stress it much more than usual (water will still flow from the reservoir through the pump then the OPV). When you brew coffee the excess flow always goes through the same cycle. You can see this even if you have a single boiler machine like a rancilio silvia, they all work the same, with some notable exceptions.
Hi Marc, I just had my Profitec 700 fitted with Flow control, but when I fully closed the flow control valve and turn the pump fully, the water was still dripping. I tried to adjust like in your video, but could not move it at all. So, I asked the shop where i bought it from, they told me it is normal if it is still dripping water ........ is this true? I showed them your video and they said the new model of profitec with flow control is like this. ie. water will still come out little when flow control is fully closed and the pump machine is turned on.
Please advice.
Hi yg, Water dripping is not normal. FYI, we developed the flow control device in conjunction with ECM/Profitec. You should be able to loosen the flow control knob, raise the sleeve it's attached to a bit, then tighten the knob. This gives clearance between bottom of sleeve and top of E61 group to allow the valve to fully close. One other possibility is an internal obstruction in the valve prevent full closure. Here's a very in-depth video on cleaning and calibrating the flow control device: th-cam.com/video/Bxh1ik-orFA/w-d-xo.html
Marc
It drives me nuts that they decided to side mount the wands on the PP600. It kills any advantage to the more compact design because I still have to accommodate the extra width. Any idea why they decided to do that? Is it possible to replace them with bottom mounted wands?
Would recommend installing flow control on a machine with vibration pump such as ECM Slim V? Would it make a difference to the end result?
Hi Danny, Thanks for the question. Yes it gives you all the capabilities you'd have on a rotary pump machine. I use it on vibe pump machine like the ECM Classika and Profitec Pro 500 and 600. More info on flow control including flow rate graph for vibe pump machines and graphs of useful profiles here: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage OK great. Thank you very much
How do you dial the grind in? Dial in with the flow full open, and then experiment with flow?
Hey dear I need bit help how I can reduce the water flow is coming to much and the coffee comes very liquid. I buy the machine 1 month ago Pro 700… please if you can help me god bless 🙏🏻…
Grind your coffee finer to slow down the flow. Here's a video on how to dial in grind size: th-cam.com/video/jOY7D02n4Cw/w-d-xo.html
When are you going to get the flow control in stock? I bought my machine pro 600 back in Dec 2018 which did not have this feature been waiting for that to be back in stock for a while now
Hi Efran, Demand has been high for the FCD. We are working with Profitec/ECM to get more in-stock to offer for individual retrofits and hope to have soon.
Marc
Whole Latte Love hey, Marc. Count this old man in for retro-fitting a FC on my PP500 when they come available. Informative video btw.
Also, any chance you’ll do a video on the La Pavoni? I used one for one year until the base came loose.
Thank u for video. Does the brewing or steaming water come in contact with any plastic piping, ruber washers, of any kind in the E61
Hi YP, There are rubber o-rings in the flow control mushroom of the E61 group.
Hey Mark - just got my Pro600 with flow control inspired by your videos ! Works great! Q: the calibration towards the end of this video does not seem to work for me - the black handle ball seems to just screw onto the valve without opening or tightening the sleeve - and I can’t move the sleeve up and down at all? Appreciate your comment… Thanks, Andreas
Hi MP, Thanks for the question and happy to inspire! The black ball handle works as a set screw. When it's cranked in tight it may cause a metal burr on the shaft. If it does, the sleeve may be difficult to move. But with some gently applied force it should loosen up. With the ball handle removed gently lever something under the bottom of the sleeve. A small flat blade screwdriver should work. might want to wrap the tip of the screwdriver with some electrical tape or similar to protect the finish.
Marc
I own an Alex Izzo Duetta IV which is a similar spec dual, boiler machine.
I purchased this in preference to ECM and Profitec due to all stainless steel construction.
At the price point I think Profitec and ECM top end machines should be all stainless - whereas the chassis appears to be painted mild steel?
Correct me if I’m wrong?
Hi Brian, When I was in Italy a couple of years ago I spent a day at the Izzo production facility. While there your machine's namesake Alex Izzo pulled me some lever shots into a saucer to demonstrate the long lasting crema of a very Italian style coffee they were roasting onsite.
Top end ECM Synchronika has one of the most unique chassis in the business. It's a single piece front to back and designed in a way which allows all the exterior panels to be removed in less than a minute. It's powder coated. While some ECM Profitec machines are painted frames they do but protective slides in key spots to prevent chipping.
Marc
WLL makes excellent videos. Thanks!
Hey muff, You're welcome - thanks for the comment!
I love the new studio! Beautiful camera shots as well!
Hi SFR, Thanks for the comment!
Marc
In case when calibrating Profitec Pro 500 there has to be performed one more step not mentioned on the video. On his video Marc was showing the calibration done on Profitec Pro 700 where loosening a black ball on the flow valve allows one to adjust/calibrate the valve. On Profitec Pro 500 it is necessary to remove a black handle ball from the valve's shaft. In fact the black ball is a decorative finish to the valve's control shaft. After removing the ball you will see a shaft of the valve. At its tip you will notice a nest that can be adjusted using an Allen key. I have used the 5/32" key and was able to loosen the top of the valve. I raised it up a bit and secured its higher position with a thin piece of plastic and secured (screwed it back) the shaft of the valve using the said Allen key. Then I checked the water flow on a completely closed flow valve. It didn't run, so I figured the adjustment was correct. After that I reinstalled the black ball thus completing a calibration of a flow valve on my Profitec Pro 500 machine. Before the calibration, water on my machine was running on a completely closed valve. I hope my tip will be of some help.
Hi NB, Thanks for sharing your tip!
Marc
Ah cool thanks I was really confused. Mine closes up fine, but the handle points off to the left at an odd angle prefer to have it clocked as he has it in the video.
I have the old knob which doesn’t allow it to fully close it, I thought you were going to send updated handles to everyone that ordered the older style?
Mark, can you answer my three questions and put my mind to rest?
That first shot you pulled would be called Gentle and Sweet in the Decent Espresso world minus the grouphead temperature control which you can't have in the E61 group.
If I had kept up with your videos three years ago, I might have just added flow control to my ECM instead of purchasing the Decent.
Even though I don't regret buying my Decent for a second, my standard drink hardly pushes Decent's capabilities at all. However, I did get to do all that experimenting with making espresso that a person could ever want and learned a great deal. Nowadays, I use a modified lever profile from Damian(big deal Decent programmer) for my Americanos.
(1) So I gather Flow Control was pretty much a WLL initiative that got it installed on E61 machines.
(2) IMO, the big puzzle is why this wasn't done by all these manufacturers of E61 machines 40 years ago. It truly seems like a no brainer and so relatively easy to do. If for no other reason than to just emulate a standard lever profile.
I'm sure current coffee profiles were simply unheard or imagined 40 years ago with the exception of the lever profile but why it wasn't done sooner baffles me.
(3) Why the little knob control versus a paddle control? A paddle would make a terrific sales photo.
(4) Is the paddle on the Slayer doing the same thing with a needle valve?
Hey Mark/WLL! How is the flow control different from the handle that turns on the water? My understanding was that the handle that turns on the water can allow for a slower addition of water into the portafilter by turning the handle to a 45 degree angle or so. Do some handles just function as an on/off valve vs a variable valve? Is the addition in the video more of a way to produce more incremental flow rate of water into the group head itself?
Thanks in advance for the clarification!
Hi Benson, Thanks for a great question on a topic that is often misunderstood! The main lever of the E61 group does have a position which allows flow prior to the pump being turned on. What happens in that position depends on the machine used. (But it is not a variable valve) Some will drop a limited amount of water with no pressure and pre-wet the coffee. This happens on HX boiler machines and plumbed in machines which close off the plumbed waterline until the pump turns on - those machines have a solenoid valve cutting off line pressure to the machine unless the pump is running. Plumbed in machines like the Pro 700 and ECM Synchronika are open to line pressure even with the pump off. So those machines can do line pressure pre-infusion which continues indefinitely when the over is raised to just before the point the pump turns on. Pressure will eventually reach whatever pressure is in the plumbed line. Why it’s important to use an adjustable pressure reducer like this on those machines: www.wholelattelove.com/products/bwt-inline-pressure-reduce-m-3-8-x-f-3-8-2-8-bar
The Flow Control Device is a way of introducing variable flow/pressure within the group. Hope that helps!
Marc
Mark, I'm new to prosumer espresso market and reviewed many products. I like the Profitec Pro 700 for quality and function. It seems the best machine would allow the Pro 700 functionality but also allow you to "lock in" the settings (via PID?) for different beans. Otherwise, you'd need an Excel sheet and constant knob adjustments to repeat the configuration. Am I missing something? Is there a machine that does this?
I installed FC on my Pro700. It shuts off fine, but just a tick open and its flows over 2.5 g/s, 1/4 turn about6 g/s, at 1/3 turn it is about 7.5g/s and 2/3 almost 11g/s. So very poor modulation. Is the valve itself able to be adjusted or is something faulty with the valve?
Hi Greg, Thanks for the question. Are you sure the valve is totally closing? A hair/tick open should not give a 2.5g/s rate. If you totally close and turn pump on are you seeing flow? If so loosen the control knob so the sleeve over the FC shaft can raise up/down. Continue turning closed with that loose until no flow. Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks Marc. Yes I can turn so there is no flow and then just a crack and it pours out quite quickly. Wondering if there is an internal spring that may have been missed. The thread pitch is very coarse so the opening increases quickly without any other restriction.
Does running the pump but not allowing any water to flow damage anything as pressure builds up in the system?
Hi Anson, Thanks for the question. No. All machines at this level have OPVs (over pressure valves) or pressure bypasses on rotary pump machines. These adjustable controls limit pressure build up in the brew system hydraulics. These are typically set to bleed pressure at 10 bar in vibration pump machine and 9 bar in rotary pump machines.
Marc
Trying to decide between the Profitec Pro 700 or the ECM Synchronika. Do you have a video that compares the two? Besides gauge placement and joysticks vs rotating knobs, any other difference??
Hi Jaime, Thanks for the question and I apologize for the delayed response. Things have been a little crazy here in NY as elsewhere dealing with current events! Internally the Pro 700 and ECM Synchronika are identical. There even made in the same production facility in Italy. Besides knobs and gauges the key differences: Synchronika has more detail/refinement of external housing and a unique construction which allows removal of panels in under 60 seconds. It also has angled portafilters. Straight handles on the Pro 700. Synchronika's PID display is colored to better match the mirror finish of the machine. Other than that specs like boiler volumes, max steam pressures, etc are identical. If interested in a deeper dive into flow profiles be sure and watch this video featuring 5 distinct profiles performed on the Pro 700: th-cam.com/video/_8lNz2rL5l8/w-d-xo.html
Hope that helps!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I hope the team there and your loved ones are all safe and stay healthy. That will always be the first priority.
On the question I posted here, I did send an email as well and your team replied quickly. So no worries on the response time to the post on the video. All good.
I will order the Synchronika as soon as this situation calms down. Shift in priorities as you can imagine. For now I will continue to use my old Rocket Cellini Evoluzione V1...
Hi Marc, does having flow control on a HX machine (for instance ECM Mechanika V Slim) reduce the negatives of not having a PID for changing between light and dark roasts, as well as reducing brightness in a fresh roast?
Recently visited the WHoleLatteLove site to get the flow control kit for a Profitec Pro 500 PID, which said out of stock. While checking with a service associate was told that the kits were no longer available and could only get it by buying a new machine with it already installed...Do you no longer offer that as an upgrade for us who already own machines? If true, where might I go to get an upgrade kit?
Hi JM, We do hope to have the kits available in the coming weeks. They have been very popular causing a shortage.
Marc
Physically and by using Bernoulli's equation, pressure and flow rate are related through the velocity.. etc. In here, can we have a solid relation/formula in which I can know exactly how much the flow by applying a certain formula and use the readable pressure from the GH pressure gauge? Do you consider this add on a mean of pressure profiling?! Kinda confusing for me.... Plz explain
Hi Saeed, Pressure and flow are related. But I do not think it's possible to determine the flow rate based on pressure. Pressure depends on the restriction provided by the coffee grind in the filter basket. Example: If there is no coffee in the filter basket a pressure gauge in the group will read zero bar. But with the flow control device on a rotary pump machine I could set the flow rate anywhere from 0g/s closed to 28g/s fully open and the gauge will always read 0 bar. Another example with dialed in grind coffee in the basket: I set the flow rate to say 4g/s. As pressure builds at the start of the extraction it will likely reach the pressure set at the OPV internally. For most machines that will be 9 bar. As the grind gives up solids the pressure in the group as observed on a group mounted gauge will start to decrease yet the flow rate will stay the same.
I consider this flow profiling and not pressure profiling. But one could use the flow control device to do pressure profiling if desired by watching the group mounted pressure gauge and using that information and control pressure by adjusting the flow.
Marc
Why does the E61 grouphead have the M6 bolt if there is no pressure gauge installed? In other words, what purpose does it serve?
Hi Sam, Thanks for the question. It's basically an accessory attachment point for pressure gauge or group thermometer.
I just ordered my Flow control apparatus for the Profitec 700. What does this do to the brew time I have been taught to keep between 25 and 35 seconds?
Hi Steven thanks for the question. Think you'll be very interested in this video in which I use a very low flow initially to tame the bite of a fresh Yirgacheffe: th-cam.com/video/HTaly8c-i_U/w-d-xo.html Total time from pump on with a 15 second low flow pre-infusion was ~38 seconds ending at a 1:2 brew ratio. Shots were pulled on an ECM Synchronika which is nearly identical to your Pro 700 internally. Timing is a basic parameter to get extractions in the ballpark.
Marc
I want to make sure I understand this correctly - I can actually do a low-pressure infusion on reservoir (not line pressure) with the flow control device? Let's for example say - I want to pre-infuse at 1 bar for 10 seconds before starting higher pressure extraction. That's possible?
Hi Anson, Yes you understand correctly! One of my favorite flow profiles is similar to your example. Mine is about 15 seconds with the flow valve open one quarter turn. Pressure rises to ~2 bar after 15 seconds. At first drip I open the valve another quarter turn to a medium flow of ~4-5g/s. This profile is perfect for fresh from roast (1st couple weeks) single origin specialty coffees. It tames the brightness/acidity that's typical with those coffees. A few weeks ago I did a series of five extended live streams. Each featured a different flow profile for a particular coffee situation. If interested here's a link to a playlist of those live streams: th-cam.com/play/PLaBDDfOHAAC2tlvMR2WZSLjizjGrcIT7H.html
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage i just binge watched the whole pressure profiling series! awesome!
Hi Marc, the flow control looks great, but the one question I have while watching the video revolves around the PID. When you engage the main lever on the Profitec Pro 700 or the ECM Synchronika the timer on the PID starts to count the seconds of extraction, but you haven’t started the actual extraction yet until you open the flow control valve. What’s the best way to utilize the flow control and the shot clock, given the difference in time between switching the main lever and opening the flow control valve?
Hi Dave, Great question. For me, when using the FCD the shot timer becomes more of a reference. Like I ran at a low flow for x seconds then went to x bar pressure at the group for x seconds and so on. In basic extraction the timer is useful to get an idea if one is in the ballpark for grind size etc. But timing is the most basic reference.
Marc
Is this the same as the variable force you can apply with a lever machine, like my old La Pavoni?
Hi MG, Thanks for the question. It's similar but more about flow than pressure although they are related!
Marc
Great video. Thx. Having trouble deciding between Pro 600 and 700 (both with FC). 1-2 people usage, so not generally high volume. Not sure if will plumb, but flirting with the option. Might like for future. Would swallow the cost difference if performance difference is noticeable: pump/boiler size/plumbing.
Hi Steven. Thanks for the comment and question. At your usage rate the biggest difference is the pump and plumbing. Vibration in the 600 and not plumbable, rotary and plumbable in the 700. Rotary pumps sound a lot nicer of course and have a higher stock flow rate of ~11g/s vs ~8g/s for vibe pump machines. If the 700 is plumbed it can do line pressure pre-infusion. You can accomplish nearly the same thing on the 600 using flow control. If you happen to like darker roasts or classic Italian style bean blends the stronger pump in the 700 can be beneficial as those type of coffees often react well to initially high flow and pressure. Also have to say never filling a reservoir on plumbed machines is wonderful! May seem like a small thing to some, but a never ending water supply and easy in-line water filtration (if needed) is nice. I really dislike filling reservoirs. They always seem to run dry at the worst possible time!
Hope that helps!
Marc
Hi Mark, do you recommend the flow control on vibration pumps.. Let's say profitec pro 600. Thanks
Hi D's C, Thanks for the question. Yes, the flow control works well on vibration pump machines. We currently offer it on machines with vibration pumps like the Pro 600, Pro 500 and ECM Classika single boiler. Here's a recent video with a technical comparison of triple bottomless shots with and without flow control from a fresh from roast Yirgacheffe coffee: th-cam.com/video/HTaly8c-i_U/w-d-xo.html
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks Mark for your answer and I would love to see more videos on the profitec pro 600 like more in depth. I know that you have some videos but why not :)
Hi, i like the Profitec pro 500, is there a way to add an automatic timer when pulling shots? Kind of like the Luminaire auto timer?
Hi Matt, That should work. You might consider an Acaia scale which beyond weighing output for brew ratios starts a timer at first drip into your cup. Shot timing is fairly basic. Brew ratios can tell you a lot more! Here's a video with an Acaia scale doing brew ratios. The scale can connect to app on smartphone/tablet to log extractions which is also demoed in the video: th-cam.com/video/HTaly8c-i_U/w-d-xo.html
Here's a link to the Acaia scale used in video: www.wholelattelove.com/products/acaia-lunar-espresso-scale
Hope that helps!
Marc
Wow thanks Marc for the quick response and great advice! I didn't know the the lunar scale had an auto timer on first drip. Cheers!
Mark I'm a newby looking for an upgrade for my Starbucks Barista. Considering a machine with either an E61 group OR a PID. My question is, does one work better than the other? If you were choosing, which feature would you choose? Am I correct in assuming that a well implemented E61 group would reduce of eliminate the need for a PID?
Hi Kerry, Thanks for the question. The E61 and PID are not mutually exclusive. The majority of E61 group machines have PID these days. Without PID boiler temps are controlled by a pressure stat which produces a relatively large swing in boiler temps and therefore brew temps. Machines with a heat-exchange boiler and no PID usually require a short flush prior to brewing to remove overheated brew water. Machines like the Profitec Pro 500 in this video which have a heat-exchange boiler, PID and E61 group are balanced so no flush is required.
Marc
I have been told that the combination of a vibration pump with a flow control is not ideal, namely that vibration pumps would not handle the demand for flow control in the long run and probably succumb. What are your thoughts on this? I considering to buy an espresso machine that is compatible with flow control and, since I mostly drink espresso, a single boiler (e.g., ECM classica). However, if I want a rotary pump for proper flow control i should probably buy a Heat exchange or dual boiler machine, since I don't know a rotary pump, single boiler machine. What would you recommend and do you agree that a vibration-flow control combination is not ideal?
Hey kevin, Thaks for the question. No doubt that a rotary pump is more robust than a vibration pump. But, I've had no reports of issues with vibe pumps on machines with flow control like the Classika or Profitec Pro 500 and 600. I think the Classika is an excellent choice if you're mainly about the espresso. If the pump should have an issue they are cheap and easy to replace but I do not think flow control will cause problems.
Marc
The vibration pumps on the PP's have a cut off circuit in them if they run too long before they would be damaged, also the OPV will still be in effect and won't let pressure build up past it's setting so I don't see where using flow control would be much worse for it than say doing a backflush with a blank basket. If you are really into doing super long shots with really low pressure, maybe give it a min or so between shots to be safe?
Would these FCD be available for use on other E61 machines that are not Profitec or ECM?
Hi dj1, Yes! We've tested in Rocket, Expobar and others. Works on all so far. They've been in high demand. We are currently out of stock but have more on the way. You can check for availability here if interested: www.wholelattelove.com/products/profitec-e61-flow-control-device
Marc
Hi Marc
Thanks for the video.
I installed it i my Appartamento and it works perfectly. One question, since Appartamento doesn’t have pump pressure gauge, is it possible to adjust pump pressure and use pressure gauge from fcd as reference? Would that show real pump pressure when using blind filter?
Best regards
Hi LD, Thanks for letting us know the FCD is working well on your Appartamento! Yes, it is possible to use the group mounted gauge for pressure adjustment using the blind filter basket. It’s actually a more accurate reading than a machine gauge would be. On vibration pump machines we usually adjust pressure to 10 bar on a machine gauge to produce 9 bar at the group. Using the group gauge one would adjust to 9 bar.
Marc
Whole Latte Love
Thank you Marc. Your answer helped me a lot. Pressure on the gauge showed 10,5 bars. That was obviously to hi. I reduced to 9 bars on the group gauge. Much better now.
Best regards
So if I’ve dialed in all my grind parameters with a given mostly open flow rate (I set mine to be roughly 6 gm per sec), and then I do a pre-infusion, how do I turn it to the same mostly open position (6 gm per second)? Flow control is neat to me. I struggle to understand how to use it with consistent results.
Have you guys checked to see if this will work on other brands of e61 group heads? I have an Isomac and would love to install one of these on mine.
Hi Brigette, Thanks for the question. Yes we have and it works on all E61 groups we have tried. At this point the Flow Control Device is in high demand so we are working with Profitec/ECM to get more to enable individual sales for retrofit into existing machines.
Marc
Hey Mark great video, that is a beautiful machine , I love it 👌
Hi Jorge, Thanks for the comment!
Marc
Hey marc can you please guide me in an espresso machine selection? Option 1 is the gs3 by la marzocco option 2 is ecm syncronika. Any difference in shot quality and performance? I really like the volumetric of the gs3 help!
Just buy the GS3 if you have the budget. That's the ultimate dream machine for home barista
Hi B, if considering the LM GS3 I’d take a long hard look at the Dalla Corte Mina: www.wholelattelove.com/products/dalla-corte-mina-110v
It’s in the same price range as the GS3 but IMO a more capable machine with programmable flow profiling - so it’s repeatable! GS3 is manual so repeating the perfect shot when you hit it is difficult.Marc
Great vid as usual. Saw some responses re other manufactures but what about Rocket e61? Can this kit/mushroom work for those as well? Have a mozzafiatio. Thanks much.
Hi W, Yes it does wotk in Rocket E61groups.
Marc
Whole Latte Love you’re the best Marc. Keep up the great vids please. PS will order as soon as you have them back in stock!
First rate content as always.
Much appreciated!
Marc
Are you guys able to mention if we can use them on other machine ie rockets
I been using it on R58. No issues.
Hi Trooper, Thank for the feedback!
Marc
Would this flow control also work for the ECM technika IV profi?
Hi MT, Thanks for the question. Yes it will.
Marc
Hey Mark, I have a Profitec Pro 500 PID 2017. Can I add flow control to it?
Hi David, Yes the Pro 500 can be retrofit with flow control. At the moment we are out of stock - it’s been very popular! We are working with Profitec/ECM to get in more kits for retrofit.
Marc
Is it possible to install this device on a Rocket Appartamento? They share an E-61 Group head, so I believe it could.
Hi Sergio, We have tested on all Rocket Espresso E61's and they work!
Marc
Sergio Ortiz
Hi
I installed it in my Appartamento and it works perfectly.
You guys are the best.
Hey Patrick, Thanks a wholle latte for the comment!
Marc
Hey Patrick if you are interested in flow control here's an article with more info on flow rates at various valve positions and graphs of 5 flow profiles: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage I am indeed! Actually just bought a 700 pro with flow control from you guys. Replaced my Breville DB which was great but not built to last. Got sick of replacing seals once a year and zero breville support. The profitec is amazing. Thanks!!
@@poomped53 awesome thanks for your patronage. Pro 700 is an excellent machine - enjoy!
Marc
When do you expect to have the Flow control kit back in stock to suit the ECM Synchronika?
Regards Mark from Australia 🤔
Hi Mark from Australia, Demand has been high for the FCD. We are working with Profitec/ECM to get more in-stock to offer for individual retrofits and hope to have soon.
Marc
Have you tried it on a Bezzera e61 if yes, which models?
We have tried it on Bezzera E61 groups and it works. All E61 groups on Bezzera machines are the same so should work in all.
Would it fit ECM Mechanika Slim?
Hi Simon, Yest it will.
Marc
Great videos!! Keep them coming
Hi B, Thanks for the comment - I will!
Marc
Do you have to use it every time
Hi KR, Thanks for the question. No you do not. To get standard stock flow rate open the valve one and a quarter turns.
Marc
will it fit any E61 group head? like my rocket celini?
Hi Peter, We've tested in Rocket machines with E61 and it's worked without issue. We hope to have upgrade kits available soon. Supply not keeping up with demand at the moment.
Marc
Whole Latte Love perfect, Will keep an eye out for that!
Nice! When will the new knobs be sent to previous buyers of the FCD?
I'm still waiting for my knob.
Hi Vernon, Have you inquired with our customer service at 585-924-7170? They can best answer that question.
"Designed in Germany, assembled in Italy" just sounds like it should be the other way around
lexkleren that’s funny! I thought the same thing.
Once the germans design it, even the italians cant mess up the construction!
Also the Italians know how to make a very super shinny metal finish, thats not a German talent. They have it all in proper order im thinking.
Pressure profiling... manually... interesting, i wonder how easily it can be implemented in the routine of making a drink.
Hi Bonesoda, I put this in another comment but there’s this… I hope to get a video out in the next couple of weeks with examples of how to use flow control in a variety of situations. In the meantime here are some basic suggestions. A little low pressure pre-infusion can help swell the coffee prior to application of full pressure to reduce chances of channeling thru the puck. For specialty coffees like 100% Arabica single origins that have been on the shelf a little longer hitting with full flow at the start and then tailing off flow at the end can help improve flavor. Filter/drip style coffee: Use a drip grind size un-tamped and a very low flow rate to produce a 6oz/180ml coffee in ~60 seconds. A real opportunity to work with brew temps with that one. Lower the Brew temp toward 195F/91C if getting bitter notes. Increase brew temp for sour notes. I’ll have more coming up!
Marc
Can I install it myself?
Yes very easy to install - a little harder to find the part.
Great video Marc and it looks like the new pre- infusion control works well.
The obvious question is why has it taken so long for this improvement to land?
Does this effectively make the Profitec Pro 700 competitive with the GS3MP?
Hi Brian, The FCD has been around for a few years now. It's something we helped make happen working in conjunction with Profitec/ECM. IMO FC opens up extraction possibilities beyond the GS3. Check out some things you can do with flow control in this article which includes profile graphs and more: www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/intro-to-calculating-flow-rate-on-e61-group-machines
Marc
Any chance this would work on an Expobar?
Hi v, We have tried the Flow Control Device in E61 groups on Expobar, Bezzera, Rocket, Quick Mill and more. It works on all.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks, Marc! great to know =D
I would love to get my hands on one of these in Australia just can't find them.
Hi DaD, I'm sure they'll get there eventually!
This is probably a bit late but in case you're still looking, Jetblack Espresso sell them and they are in stock.
Can we order this separately for my 600
Hi e, Thanks for the question. Depending on availability it may be possible. With limited supply due to high demand and virus related production delays we are limiting individual sale to customers who purchased their machine from us. If that's you contact Customer Support directly via email, phone, chat to order: www.wholelattelove.com/pages/contact-us
You Rock Mark!!
Hi John, Thanks a whole latte for your comment!
Marc
I am a little disappointed that the flow control on the new 700 that was just delivered is not calibrated correctly. Shut off is not really shut off. I guess I figured you guys would have checked that out before shipping the new machine.
Hi TC H, Sorry to hear of your disappointment. It may have slipped in shipping. It's super easy to set as shown in the video. When you set it up you can position the valve handle to your preference for shutoff position.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage Yes sir. I have it shutting down completely now. I'm still getting used to the new machine. I'll probably have more questions in the future. Thank you for the quick response.
Marc, thank you for your instructional and informational video, well done. As a consumer who currently own a Quick Mill Anita for over 12 years I decided to go high tech so I am currently considering the Profitec Pro 700 with the Flow Control Device. It appears that the Pro 700 Espresso Machine doesn’t come with an app like the Dalla Corte Mina Espresso Machine which I consider an important and helpful element for this Flow Control device? With an app you would be able to create and save a flow profile for the different coffee beans and also the app would provide a graph that would be helpful in visualizing the flow profiling process. Is Profitec planning on creating an app for this machine and if so, how soon would it be available? Does the Profitec Pro 700 manual provide instruction on the utilization of this Flow Control Device? An app for this machine would be such a great tool enhancement. It would make the Flow Control Device so much more appealing, enjoyable, and fun and being able to use this device to its fullest potential and opening up a world of all sorts of experimentation and being able to visualize the results. Grazie !!!
Hi Alberto, You are welcome for the video and thank you for the kind comment and question! The flow control device on the Pro 700 is manually operated. In it's current configuration there no easy way to electronically control. As mentioned in the video Profitec is always innovating so not out of the question they could implement an internal flow control with sensors. I have no information if it is being considered. Also know machine manufacturers are very tight lipped about what they are working on due to competition. I've worked with the Dalla Corte Mina quite a bit over the past few months and it is an impressive machine - also nearly 3X the price of the 700.
Marc
mark hoping no issue with QM67 by quick mill just ordered mine today after watching how great an upgrade this be :)
Hi The VP, I have not specifically tested the FCD on your machine but have yet to find an E61 group in which it does not work. Here a link to a video playlist of mine which includes 5 videos with very specific flow profiles. They were live streams so can be long. If you watch any might want to scrub ahead to get to the meat of the presentations.
th-cam.com/play/PLaBDDfOHAAC2tlvMR2WZSLjizjGrcIT7H.html
Marc
Whole Latte Love thank you so much. More power and blessings
Mark all is well worked with QM and I tagged whole latte love in my IG and working really well the ECM kit is awesome. Made a huge difference already and really excited with the upgrade. Thanks
The Vlogging Professor Awesome! Thanks for the tag and update. Marc
Does this work on a Rocket R58?
Hi DD, Yes it will. We've installed the FCD in E61 groups from many machine manufacturers including Rocket Espresso and have yet to find one in which it does not work.
Marc
How should flow control be used with beans not recently roasted - any different from the timing you showed for beans roasted just three days ago?
Hi Jim, Thanks for a great question. I hope to get a video out in the next couple of weeks with examples of how to use flow control in a variety of situations. In the meantime here are some basic suggestions. A little low pressure pre-infusion can help swell the coffee prior to application of full pressure to reduce chances of channeling thru the puck. For specialty coffees like 100% Arabica single origins that have been on the shelf a little longer hitting with full flow at the start and then tailing off flow at the end can help improve flavor. Filter/drip style coffee: Use a drip grind size un-tamped and a very low flow rate to produce a 6oz/180ml coffee in ~60 seconds. A real opportunity to work with brew temps with that one. Lower the Brew temp toward 195F/91C if getting bitter notes. Increase brew temp for sour notes. I’ll have more coming up!
Marc
I love this so much. I'm looking to upgrade and I can't stand the thought of simply pressing a single button to brew espresso. This looks amazing! One question: is there a default flow setting that you can use when first trying new coffees or do you have to use the flow control every time? I guess maybe the default is just fully open? Thanks for the great video!
Hi John, Thanks for the question and I apologize for a delayed response. Things have been a little crazy around here as we deal with current events! But, your timing is excellent. I posted a video a couple of days ago with more detail on calibrating flow rates. Video includes details of 5 different flow profiles to try based on coffee you are using and other variables. One note: I would never run with the flow valve wide open. When wide open flow rate can be as high as 30g/sec compared to typical flow rates of 10 - 13g/sec from E61 group with stock mushroom valve. Here's a link to that video with calibration and 5 profiles: th-cam.com/video/_8lNz2rL5l8/w-d-xo.html
Enjoy!
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage thanks for sharing that. I had no idea that the flow control valve would open beyond the stock default setting. It sure looks like a lot of fun!
I would like to retrofit one of these flow controls for E61 groups to my Isomac - is that possible?
Hi G, We have tried in many manufacturers and have yet to run into an E61 it cannot be installed in. Have not specifically tried in Isomac.
Marc
I thought higher pressure increases bitterness or toned down brightness not the opposite.
The increased contact time of the water and coffee increases extraction, so the bitter notes balance out the sour notes, if that makes sense.
Why 6 not 9 ??
Hi MY, You can set the closed position wherever you like.
Marc
And on a side note, how can a company justify retailing a machine for $23,000 for a "nuova black eagle" espresso machine.
Very good!,
Hi TD, Thanks for the comment!
Marc
Pro 500 still back order !
Hi n, ETA for new stock of Pro 500s is 4/20/21. It's a very popular machine. As one can imagine pandemic has resulted in increased demand and lower than anticipated production due to supply chain issues and lockdowns. The machine is made in Milan, Italy an area hit very hard by the pandemic.
Marc
@@Wholelattelovepage is that certain last time it was 3/15 then 3/30 got excited only to find out last night it was push again to 4/20 😭😭😭
This is pressure control. Nothing to do with flow control.
Hi Rien, Thanks for the comment. Flow and pressure are definitely related and you can use the FCD to pressure profile by chasing pressures on the group gauge. Profitec/ECM does consider the device as controlling flow. Forgetting about grind size opening the FCD to a certain position produces a consistent flow rate. Prior to the FCD pressure in the brew circuit is constant regardless of the FCD setting. So the FCD allows brew water to flow from the constant pressure source. That’s different than a pressure profiling machine like the Rocket Espresso R Nine One which measures pressure with a transducer and modifies pump speed to produce a desired pressure on the coffee.
Marc
Hi, agree both are related. But the only thing you control is pressure. Take a Decent machine, it can control flow to be constant, independant whether the resistance of the puck changes due to degradation or channeling.
No shave November is around the corner :)
Lol, The wife would love that but I don't think she's winning this year!
Marc
What's the difference between all three of those units? You said the 700 is to be plumbed. One has a water reservoir.
Those machines are really expensive. If you're working with a 30% profit margin, how about a 20% discount? Lol 😉😉
Hi William, Good luck with that :) P700 is plumbable direct to waterline or can run from reservoir, rotary pump, dual boilers, PID, steam boiler up to 2 bar pressure. P600 is a compact dual boiler, PID, vibration pump, reservoir only, steam boiler to 2 bar pressure. P500 is HX boiler, reservoir only, PID, vibration pump.
Marc