Thanks so much for all the thoughts on this episode - we couldn't keep up, but dug into some of the comments in our weekly podcast right here: th-cam.com/video/RjcxsmbZEJ0/w-d-xo.html
While the IPA is "flooding the taps", I also notice an increase in sours finding it's way to even more taps. At least here in Copenhagen. But we do need more Bock!
I actually think mediocre beer is doing more harm than Hazy IPA's. Lately, I can go in and by a mixed 6 pack from my store and only 2 of them are worth drinking anymore. Mediocre beers keep me from buying beer . I just brew my own now because I'm tired of a 33% success rate...
I think that grocery store beer quality has probably taken a dive quality rise for the same reasons I state in the video about Hazy IPA being inevitable.
I agree but would add mediocre beer at high price point is doing more harm than good. If I pay $24 for a 4 pack my expectations are higher than if I pay $16.
In my mind this stems from the hazy ipa craze. These are expensive beers to make well, a lot of them are mediocre from breweries brewing them down to a price for supermarkets.
@@TheCraftBeerChannel it’s been breweries around me too. To be fair our grocery store sells a lot of local beers. Out of the 20 or so breweries near me, 3 of them are worth going to. We don’t have a Treehouse or Trillium level brewery here where you can almost guarantee every beer is going to be solid. Maybe someday!
Hazy IPAs don't bother me, because I don't have to drink it. What I don't like is when I walk into a micro and out of 20 taps, 12 or more are some sort of hazy and nothing dark like a porter or stout.
I have to say, as a professional brewer, I'm ready for hazies to go away. I hate going into a taproom and seeing 8+ of their 20 taps devoted to hazy IPAs.
One more pro brewer chiming in to say I'm also tired of both brewing and seeing them. It is slowing down in my area at least. Lagers and Westies are starting to dominate here.
My wife used to have zero interest in any IPA until she tried a Hazy and loved it. This past weekend she (of sound mind) ordered something described as "skunky" and thought it was great. Honestly, Hazy IPAs helped turn her into a beer geek and I'm loving it. Whatever keeps the craft breweries in business and keeps us drinking tasty beer, I'm all for. Cheers!
how long ago was that? I think there is more choice now for ipa to be approachable than before. Might be around 2017-2018 for sure when I first had a hazy. Before I had to try many different IPAs to see which I liked. In the last couple of years, I've paid more attention to hops to pick what beer to try if info is available.
Thats a classic hazy in disguise. This has stopped me from trying new IPAs for a while. I saw one that was called "West Coast Hazy IPA". I was like, ummmm i dont think thats even possible.
There are three pubs within walking distance of my home. Of the three, the closest you’ll get to any kind of ipa is Magic Rock’s Saucery in one pub. If hazy IPAs are taking over, nobody has told large parts of the country. What we do have for those who don’t want macro lager and macro cider is local cask (Hooky, Shagweaver) and local cider (Napton Cidery).
I don't mind that Hazy IPAs exist, but I do think calling them IPAs is a big mistake. 5-10 years ago I could go into a supermarket and pick up a random IPA and I would like it 90% of the time. But now it's a crapshoot because so many breweries fail to make it clear that an IPA is hazy, and the IPA bucket is too broad. This has made me gunshy in my purchasing decisions, and I find myself just going back to reliable favorites rather than trying new IPAs unless they are explicitly labelled "West Coast". I think the poor labeling hurts everyone from consumers to the brewers.
I have not gotten on the Haze Train, stayed where I was already. I did get frustrated to see some styles get swapped for Hazy, however that is changing back.
I have seen it effect beer in general with bitterness. Many beers that used to be historically quite bitter, are now less bitter and/or sweeter. One, because of the consumer demand asking for less bitterness, and two, hops being bred for brighter juicy flavors. I crave bitterness to come back into play. I think there used to be a more defined role for bitterness to play in hazy, that's been continually pushed away.
I'm glad the IBU wars are over and Mexican style lagers are crushing it right now, another indication that overall public taste is leaning towards crispness, but low bitterness. I started on more bitter styles, and expect balanced styles to win in the end. Crispness or dryness can be used to achieve balance, as well as traditional hop bitterness.
@@Roy_1 I agree with you overall, and I certainly am not suggesting we return to chasing the highest IBU counts. I do think “balance” is a tough thing to achieve in this style. It usually flies in the face of balance. I have just noticed over the years it seems we’ve pushed the envelope so far in the other direction, it can be too much. Just my take. It doesn’t help there are a lot of bad representations of the style as well.
My local bottle shop, although predominantly hazies does a monthly sub box showcasing all styles. A great way of introducing others to the diversity of beer!
I would love to see a study / studies) on how our drinking habits have changed as well, particularly when apparently, younger generations are drinking less- how does that affect buying habits and the ways in which we choose the beer we drink? At the tender age of 36, my personal favourite way to drink beer now is at beer festivals or anywhere where I can access flights. I rarely go out to drink because it's so expensive (in Finland) and when I do, I want maximum value for my experience. Trying several different beers at 100 - 150ml measurements is such a joy to me and I would LOVE to see more bars and pubs offer this. 15€ for 2 pints (usually focusing on what I know / like) or 15€ for 0.5L (ish) of several wildly different beers, some I never would have touched at 7-8€ a go is just perfect for my tastes. If I could pick up 'flight packs' of several 100ml cans covering a range of styles to take home and drink, I'd be in absolute heaven! I don't see the article writer's point, beyond also being frustrated at seeing sometimes 75% of taps dominated by cloudy IPAs- but it's less about taking choice away I think and more about bars and pubs pushing things like flights to get people excited about the beauty and variety of beer out there- by making it as accessible as possible. For most people (I think), beer is just beer, and the experience matters just as much as the product. So rather than get gatekeepery and nerd-ragey about what we see in our own bubble- I totally agree that we need to continue to find ways to make craft more accessible and removing options from the menu doesn't do that. And that's coming from me- someone who actively avoids cloudy IPAs. Just because I'm bored / frustrated at seeing the same stuff on the shelves / drink lists constantly, it doesn"t mean I want others to lose what thet enjoy. Just drink what you want to drink and enjoy the success of our lovely craft brewers 🍻
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Hazy IPA sells because a large portion of beer drinkers think it’s delicious and listening to countless brewers they’ll tell you how important it is to their overall business and giving them the ability to make other styles. It’s probably true that there are a few too many hazy IPAs on at a given time at a tap room, but something to consider is that to some of us they’re not all carbon copies of each other. Different hop combos bring out different nuances in flavors that we enjoy exploring. I’d also say it’s the single most important style to drink relatively fresh (within at least 3 months, preferably 2 if kept cold) which may affect some people’s opinions of it if they’re buying a 6 month old hazy at a grocery from a brewery that doesn’t make a great example in the first place. Hazy IPA is my favorite style, but I at least enjoy every style of beer to some extent and love some other styles nearly as much as hazies(namely lagers, stouts, and traditional mixed ferm styles). I don’t think there’s any need in this community to crap on other styles. We’re literally living in the best time you ever could for beer. You can get anything your heart desires. One day hazy IPAs won’t be king of the hill anymore and it’ll be something else, but just enjoy the ride. It’s just beer. 😁
That’s one way of framing it, I think conversely you could also say with some validity that it’s the worst time in the last 15 years for craft in terms of variety and dedication to experimentation. Long gone are the days of going into a bar to see Wild Beer saison, Kernel IPAs, stuff like Partizan, Magic Rock when it was smashing it etc etc. Every craft bar in my area is seemingly happy to serve up a dozen iterations of bland ‘juicy’ pales, all happy to operate within an ever decreasing flavour bandwidth. Back to cask for me!
@@robertloader9826 I generally agree there are a few too many hazy IPAs on at most places but they also sell really well because they’re in demand. Most of the places I’m going though I still see a really good mix of styles and I get around to a lot of different breweries. There are some places like Other Half for example where 95% of their taps are hazy IPAs, but that’s what they specialize in and what you would expect walking in. I also love me some funky saisons and West Coast IPAs as well. I think there’s a resurgence of new school West Coast IPAs that are going to blow up in the next few years. Basically pulling the crystal malt out to be a super low SRM, bitterness in like the 50-70 IBU range and using new school hops instead of only the old school C hops. I’m seeing most breweries starting to make some form of those now.
@@curtisbrause9255 Yeah we’re not talking about Other Half here though mate, you’d be surprised at quite how formulaic and dull UK hazy pales, with honourable exceptions, have become. A resurgence in West Coast IPAs would be very, very welcome! The supply from the US to here though is practically non-existent outside of real specialists, of which there are few.
@@robertloader9826 Ahhh you’re in the UK. That makes sense as it is and English channel after all. I’ve seen Verdant and Cloudwater mentioned quite a lot on this channel as being awesome but I believe you if you’re saying most are pretty average. Here in the U.S. there are also quite a few average to bad producers of hazy IPAs (since everyone has to make them basically) but also a lot that are excellent. You just kind of have to know who’s doing a really good job making them. Other Half probably isn’t a fair example because they’re legit like a top 3 (top 5 at worst) producer of that style. We were in the UK in 2018 by the way and thoroughly enjoyed all the beer there. I drank as much cask ale as I could since we rarely see it in the states.
@@curtisbrause9255 Yeah we’ve always got the cask mate thankfully! I’m in Manchester so lucky to have great cask on our doorstep plus great keg from Cloudwater, Track, Sureshot etc too, but the creep of homogenous hazy pale is a wider phenomenon it seems. 🍻
There's two things that have killed my love for craft beer 1. Hazy/New England IPAs that taste like grapefruit. I was over that flavor 10 years ago when brewers started using Cascade hops for everything and my hatred increases annually. 2. The hard selzter boom. At least where I live, hard seltzer is absolutely dominating the shelf space in supermarkets and convenience stores and pushing aside all but the most popular craft beers. Yes, beer stores exist, but until recently I haven't had to make a trip to one in over ten years
I don't know, I feel like Hazys peaked a year ago or so. I got really into them and now I'm kind of burned out on them. I've been going back to regular IPAs.
Well that's BRILLIANT news - it's great that you went all in, then went for something different! This is what so many people are saying doesn't happen. Also, I agree that the hype around these beers is fading, but the volumes are still going up as the style normalises.
Hey Johnny just so you know cask ale is alive and well here in the states. My wife and I are going to Seneca lake in the finger lakes region of New York next week and one of the breweries we will be visiting is Seneca lake brewing company that specializes in traditional and authentic cask ale. The only ipa they have is an “English ipa”. Their food features meat pies and pasties with mashed potatoes and mushy peas!
"You can't project your palate on to someone else" is a sentence a lot of people need to hear! As a beer geek and speciality coffee drinker myself it's important to know how to communicate nicely with someone that has different tastes!
I appreciate you took the time to be level headed about a polarizing topic. I definitely agree the love of hazy ipa is more of a symptom than a cause and I certainly agree it brings more people into craft beer. I can think of a few breweries that seem to lean too hard into the trend and might go under if hazys drop in popularity, but this world is full of people too quick to criticize and gate-keep. Drink what you like, explore if you wish and the market will adjust.
Living in a town where the closest bottle shop is about 15 miles away I get most of my beer either online or from supermarkets, the fact that I can get many different styles of craft beer even in Tesco (including St. Bernardus abt 12 these days!) tells me that craft beer is doing fine although wish someone would open a bottle shop here!
Hiya from Bellingham in Washington State, USA… I work as a server and bartender at a pretty popular brewery here in town, and we’re best known for hazy IPAs because that’s what our founder has brewed for the longest. But at this point
I have basically converted many many beer drinkers (coors, bud, etc) to craft beers. Now those people are dabbling in many other types and are impressed with the options. I drink mostly "hazy" IPA's but also will drink bitter IPAs, stouts, scotch ales, winter warmers, oh my favorite Imperial everything haha
Absolutely outstanding, Jonny. The worlds a better place because of it. I for one certainty wouldn't be subscribed and loving content such as this if it wasn't for a couple of well marketed hazys 6/7 years ago. 👍
As always, a well researched and balanced view to this argument. I have also been at times dismissive about the 'fad' of NEIPAS. Then, yesterday, I bought a can of Brew By Numbers' hazy India Pale Ale No 5 just because it was on offer. Although NOT an IPA in the true sense, it was absolutely delicious accompanying a spicy dahl. As a long-time fan of cask, I have embraced the diversity of these styles. That's what makes beer so astoundingly amazing.
At least in the Eastern US, I think we are seeing growing interest in more traditional malty beers like Scottish ales and various Belgian styles. I suspect that's the next big thing.
I think the trend now is more craft pilsners. Makes sense, smaller breweries are now so technically proficient they can pull it off. Partly because they need the same kinds of low DO equipment and canning or botteling lines for the super hoppy beers.
Well said Jonny. I went the same route. Got into craft beer pre the haze craze, but really got nerdy when New England took over before looping back round to my current favourite styles of pilsner, west coast IPA (where craft beer started for me) and bitter (where BEER in general started for me). I still love a pillowy pale though. P.S. I just got back from the Verdant tap room vinyl night, a lovely community party with locals dropping their favourite tunes and enjoying (primarily hazy) beers. We should send this wally to Penryn and see if they still think hazy beer is stagnating the industry.
I put it down to Lazy Journalists who very rarely venture into pubs bars or tap rooms. I love all kinds of IPA'S but I also crave Mild and Bitter come the weekend. Great video mate.
When some of my favourite craft went up 50% in price I stopped buying craft 6 months ago. Found a lager from a “big brewery” that tastes great and costs half as much as craft. Sadly I think my craft exploration is over.
Not sure craft has gone up by 50% but I appreciate your point. It will be craft breweries' biggest task in the modern market to persuade people they are deserving of custom at their price point
A great video Jonny and it always fascinates me how you can sit in front of a camera and have a discussion covering a few different sides of the discussion, great job as always. What would also be an interesting topic is why has Hazy IPA been 'The Style' that the craft beer industry has latched onto, most UK drinkers have come through the ranks of cask ale or lager so why did we latch onto Hazy's.
I guess the drinkers didn't want Hazy IPA in the beginning but were more so introduced to it from the breweries experimenting with the accessible American hops. So was it the influx of craft breweries pushing it into the industry and in some ways driving the Hype to make us want it and want more of it...the good old days of getting on a website at 9am trying to get a beer that was sold out by 9.10am!
Very interested to hear you mention Verdant Helles. We visited their Seafood Bar by the harbour in Falmouth and I started working my way down the chalk board. My wife is definitely not a ‘beer geek’ and so went for the Helles. I tried it and was blown away. Had to buy her another one! I like the style anyway, from lots of trips to Bavaria and Austria, but what Verdant are managing to extract from their use of Hallertauer Mittelfrüh hops took it to another level. Inspired me to buy a pack from The Malt Miller and have another go myself!
Tried my first Hazy IPA about four months ago; loved the citrus and pineapple! Thought I hated IPA because it seemed a race to make a better pine-cone taste. Spent good deal of cash looking at what's out there, and all for the better!
I am so over done with Hazy Beers, at 59 I have been become a beer W****r and find every hazy tastes pretty much the same. I love a West Coast and currently my favourite is Bone Shaker by the Amsterdam Brewery (Canada) 100 IBUs. Happy to bring a few back to the UK for you. My first stray away from real ales was Brewdog, it was different and I've progressed. I've even gone back to Pilsners like ABK. But you can't beat a decent keg beer which is my daily drinker.
The Hazy IPA trend that you speak of is only the covergirl [and catalyst] for the real problem with Craft Beer in general - whether on-promise or off-promise - consumer prices are through the roof. When a beer costs more than a premium glass of wine there's a serious issue. A 4pack can be $20-30 USD or well over $100 for a case. Same for the Craft Distillers who have driven up industry prices as a whole where they're asking for $80-120 USD for a mediocre bottle of 4yo whiskey just because it's "craft" from a 2-man operation with a beer keg potstill. Like any other trend-driven industry, the market gets flooded and contraction is inevitable. And I will smile.
The bigger issue in my view is gen Z don't drink much and if they do they don't drink beer. Would like to see that discussed and what we could do about it to preserve our hobby
Haha we've thought about this one. It feels.... wrong to encourage people who don't drink to take it up so it's a very difficult thing to talk about. I think the industry needs to fight its corner on public health, explain it's socio-cultural benefits.... and also brew more beer around 4%
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Yeah definitely, it's a tough subject to talk about. It's absolutely a positive that the younger generation isn't consuming as much alcohol, it would be very bad optics to try and devise ways to get them to consume more haha.
This is not an issue. Craft breweries only have to take a larger market share. Less drinking overall means the few drinks you do buy will have to be worth it. Also locally produced, organic, etc are trends not likely to disappear. This speaks in favor of craft breweries. We should push for quality or diversity of styles and flavor. Not more drinking per se.
I would tell people "Drink what you like" as Jonny said in the video. I would also tell people "Be adventurous. You might find something new to you that you will enjoy." I confess that when i see someone come into my local microbrewery, and they dont see every tap having a hazy and bomb the place on Untappt, to getting annoyed. You made the trip. Give the beer an honest try.
Spot on Johnny - whilst I’ve become weary and find a lot of Hazy IPA’s to be too expensive, if it helps the breweries survive and allowing them to spend the money and diversify in other areas, then great. I understand why the prices are so high for a lot of fashionable IPA’s, but these beers are too rich for me. That said, that’s for people to choose and it’s great to have such variety.
Here (Georgia), the craft beer revolution sparked desite hazies not being made until about 3-4 years ago, since hazies have been made its only accelerated the interest and growth. Hazy pales have taken over from wheat beers and unfiltered lagers as craft beer drinkers session beers. Its just part of the machine. Now we have a load of great hazy beer, it hasnt stopped brewers making a huge variety of excellent beers that loads of people enjoy including locally inspired new flavours - clay qvevri fermented wine ales, fruited sours with indigenous fruit, and even spiced “soup beers”. Bad quality and uninspiring macro “craft beer” is more of an issue as it puts off newbies who use it as an entry point due to it’s available in the supermarket.
Absolutely true. Hazy IPA needs to be an option at a brewery...not the entire list. When I go to breweries and there are 8 hazys on the board it's a sure sign of laziness and usually a poor brewery experience due to lack of variety.
In my USA grocery store, we have bad domestic beers that are basically water and hazy IPAs. What I'd give for just a regular clean IPA or a nice pils or kolsch.
I’m fortunate to have a dozen craft breweries around my town and they make all varieties of beer, and do a great job of it. I’m also a home brewer and the past few batches I’ve made have been hazy IPA’s because they are delicious and great in the summer. The cost of ingredients and massive inflation in the US is what is going to hurt the sales of craft beer.
My favourite styles of Beer right now are Lagers, Westies and Bitters but without the Hazy IPA I wouldn't have discovered craft and therefore I'd be drinking Macro Lager and not Donzoko and Utopian which are absolutely outstanding. I'd be drinking Timmy Taylors either way still.
Great clip. Lots of macro lager-drinking people I know personally have become rather fond of the NEIPA, particularly the hazy stuff. It appears to be the gateway drink to other craft beers... And in pubs where there used to be 5 macro lagers and a John Smiths on tap, you now see a couple of (often hazy) IPAs..... I cannot see how this situation is threatening craft beer...
I went to school in Burlington Vermont when Heady Topper was big and people were buying it for $20 a can. It was insane. People would follow the delivery truck around, I would get a 4 pack and mail my uncle a single can to his glee. It was totally ridiculous.
I enjoy the NEIPA. I tend to go for Saisons, Kolsch, and some IPAs depending on the hops used. The NEIPA for me is my nice weather drink. Tho a shandy also fills that spot. And perhaps blasphemy, Sam Adams Just the Haze, low alcoholic version is quite tasty.
Just happen to be watching this while sippin on Beak's hazy IPA collab with Uchu Brewing, loving it. 🍺 Pales/hazys are usually my go to style beer as I find they're so easy and delicious to drink and living in a place like Lewes it's not hard to find a great hazy when you've got the luxury of two breweries that specialise in making them (Beak & Abyss). However, that's not to say I'll only drink that style of beer as I also enjoy lagers, sours, and darker beers too - and with it being beer festival season it's the perfect opportunity to discover and taste some styles outside of the hazy stuff!
I can understand their point. Often I'll go to a taphouse and cannot even get hold of a West Coast because it's just a haze craze. My favourite beers ever have been hazy's, but they're a bit like grey squirrels now.
Sure. But like I say in the video, that's not what's holding craft back, a shift is already happening, and without it many breweries would have gone under.
@@TheCraftBeerChannel definitely agree, as the first beers that really blew me away and made me fall in love with beer were NEIPAs. I just feel as though it’s slightly difficult to get cask and keg westies, and when I do find a good one it feels so rewarding
I make no bones about it, hazys got me into craft beer. If it wasn't for hazys I wouldn't have tried the multitude of styles I now love and drink regularly. To me, a good beer is a good beer! I've got no time for gate-keeping and will drink whatever I enjoy. Cheers to you and Brad for all the hard work you do 🍻
From a Brit Brewer in a Canadian market perspective. They are expensive to make, Citra/Mosaic isn't interesting anymore and the market is saturated with sweet, same tasting, hazy beers (they don't interest me at all). Budget Lagers are a growing in the "craft" market and it's a race to the bottom in competition for shelf space. Majority of drinkers are looking to ABV to get bang for the buck in IPA, or for cheap lagers. Just my opinion though.
Got to agree with your comments about IPAs , they are everywhere .Living in the UK there are still classic examples of the style e.g Shepherd Neame IPA. Worthington White Shield was another classic but has been mothballed by it's halfwit owners Molson Coors. Although I like some of the new IPAs such as Buxton's "King Slayer"(8%) I have gravitated back to the vast array of Belgian beer styles , where quality and difference is assured. Is there a better beer than Orval or anything to match the eccentricity of the Geuze/Lambic style? As soon as the money boys get involved in anything the customer is the last thing on their minds.
I have been drinking craft beer for the past 20 years and after having some of the best barrel aged imperial stouts, ipa, largers,, Hefeweizen, sours, there are only two types of beer that I enjoy drinking are hazy ipa and a nice barley wine
I work as a brewmaster in Switzerland and I feel like here the hazy trend is already dieing before it really took off. It was a thing obviously but the general public outside of the beer scene probably never heard of it. If I was too chose a hype ``style`` it has too be non-alcoholic beer. It´s the style that´s driving innovation, money gets invested and it´s a great way too show-off for any brewery because it takes a lot of technical skills to get it right.
Well Done Johnny informative and thought provoking what more could we ask for....... I am not the biggest fan of NEIPA but not a hater, the diverse types of beer is whats important for me and brewers do need to make a living so can see why so many jump on, but I think it all settles out overall, great video, how have you not been signed up for mainstream TV.....there loss is our gain.....
Hazy IPA’s have saturated the market as they’re the most popular “craft” beer style. Unfortunately like all good things you can get a little sick of them and I’m personally pushing back towards West Coast IPA’s and other styles
I think the whole market is but my point is that while they drove demand they did a lot of good, and don't have any of the negative impacts writers and brewers are trying to claim
@@TheCraftBeerChannelYeah, 100% it’s been good for craft beer and got a lot of people into drinking better beer and it’s probably still my favourite style all said and done, I’m just a little hazied out currently.
In 2018 after drinking a Verdant hazy DIPA, I naively posted on a certain craft beer Facebook group " how im sick of hazy ipas and is that all craft beer is now about?". I then left the group, apparently it caused quite a stir and the bloke who ran Cloudwater back then discussed my post on his page . My claim to beer fame.
I love Hazy and it definitely was one of the styles that got me into Craft beer but probably my only critique of it is that there isn’t too much variety anymore. From my experience, Hazies fall into 3 categories: full on juice with some bitterness mixed in (love this one), balance of juiciness and hoppiness and leaning more towards the bitter end. Almost every time I go to a brewery in NJ and parts of PA, when I have a Hazy I’ll think to myself “I’ve had this exact brew at X brewery before”. Hazy beer isn’t hurting the industry right now but the over saturation is gonna cause a bubble to burst for that specific style. Hopefully by the time that bubble does burst a new staple will come around
My local brewery has started brewing ONLY hazies, at first I was extatic to find a local hazy brewer. After a few months my pallet is starting to become unable to distinguish their beers and is missing some diversity
When i see a brewery close i ask 3 questions: 1) have i seen them on keg/cask recently or are their small pack beers available through common craft retailers/available to small shops via common wholesalers? 2) do they have a core range? 3) are the beers they have most commonly available all one style or closely similar styles? You can have the best brewery in the world but if their sales team cant/or unable to get their beer to the right market then a matter of time before that brewery closes. Supermarkets cause retailers not to buy certains beers from breweries. I think north had that problem for a long time, yes they overstretched themselves with their bars but that also what made them attractive to the new owners. Yes craft is cyclical but business is business.
I run a small craft beer bar, Vinny and Ted, in an area were craft is still new for most of the people who walk though our door. Most of the time when i have the joy of introducing new people to craft and we talk about flavours in beer and what we have, I know that NEIPA, hazy pales and juciy IPAs are most likly what im going to be pouring for them. I feel like for a lot of people the hazy low bitterness styles, were you get bang for your buck flavour wise, is importantly is accessible for new people. As well as people who have been enjoying craft for a few years wanting something fomilear. There are people who come in and just ask for ' a hazy one', as they think that is what they are supost to say, but I feel like its my job to talk about flavor and what they actualy want to drink. I always try to have a mixed selaction and recomend new styles to people as I feel that gets newer people into trying new styles. However i know i need at least two to thee lines (out of 11) that are 'Hazy' in one way or another. I see your points about it not killing the indestry but with the groth and a larger propoton of the population drinking craft we need to Accept that the more acssesable styles will be more numous then less acssesable styles Like sours, Sasions, rauchbier, ect. I hope there are more people like me out there getting people into drinking craft and talking about as many styles of beer as possible otherwise i do feel like they may be sidelined. Sorry for ramberling.
I have converted many a macro drinker and indeed non beer drinkers with my hazies , I do like to mix it up my latest is a american pale ale and Oktoberfest but I think the next will be a hazy nothing better to introduce the carling drinker to craft
Appointment viewing for me for every episode. I am lucky, I live in between Trillium and Treehouse, both 19 miles away. Having world class NEIPAs gives me confidence that when they add different styles,I will still welcome them. More importantly, the editing pace and use of turn to camera was crisp!
I have seen a negative effect from various "hazy IPA" releases. Breweries have all, to some degree, jumped on the hazy bandwagon. The problem, from my view, is that only 60-70% of breweries are capable of a half-decent hazy, BUT only 20% are making the effort. The rest are producing shite that turns off new craft drinkers AND drinkers that rely on big breweries. A massive release from a big brewing concern can turn a whole generation off of craft beer by saying "this is a hazy" and presenting the drinkers with some cloudy rubbish that tastes bland and watery.
I like almost every style and got into craft beer sometime in the early 2010s. I go out to a new brewery and I sometimes want to try other styles - but so many times I end up getting a hazy.....because they are effing delicious!! What can I say? Granted, if I go to a place that specializes in something else I will make a point to try it and I do have other moods. But dang - I probably buy a hazy 85% of the time? I do get in the mood for some bitterness from time to time. One thing I've also thought about with modern IPA's is the maturation of the style - instead of the "bitterness" arms race brewers are bringing out the nuance of the hops. I find it similar to what happened with 3rd wave coffee. Why buy expensive beans then roast them until they all taste the same..... ok - I could go on and on. I'll stop.
The data I'm seeing is that IPAs in general make up 46% of the craft beer market (in the us.) I can't imagine that 39% would be west coast ipas, so can I ask where you got that 7% figure from?
Very well said. If you think that hazy IPA is killing craft beer you clearly haven’t understood what Craft means. And I say that as someone who’s not a big fan of hazy or indeed any kind of IPAs. I would recommend linking your What is Craft video from I think last year for further education.
I found this video because I was searching for the reason so many offerings are now hazys. I started my craft journey in the early 00s with Bell’s Oberon. That led me to my first American IPA in Two Hearted, which to this day is a favorite of mine. Yes, I know it’s a different company. I worked as a bartender then and began to chase the IBU dragon with likeminded co-workers and customers . At some point in the mid 10’s the IBUs became just too damn overpowering. So many beers were not well balanced and quite honestly the decision fatigue living in a craft beer state made it that much easier to go back to tried and true. I never caught the hazy train and have transitioned most of my discretionary alcohol spending to whiskey these days. If anything the IBU revolution has me go full circle back to macro beers. If I’m enjoying a beer it will more than likely be a Guinness, seasonal beers like Oberon , a Marzen, or Two Hearted if I’m feeling it. I still check on new labels at my local store occasionally and I can tell from packaging dates the craft beer trend is definitely slowing down, which is rather unfortunate. I’m sure there’s a hazy I’d like but I don’t want to explore 10 different offerings from my local taproom or store when my time is limited. I’d rather enjoy something I know I’ll like.
$8 a pint in tap rooms, $16+ for 4 cans in a bottle shop which have little or no info about the beer and often don't have any kind of packaging date - these things are not helping. As for hazies, most of them taste like a sickly sweet sugar bomb and are more for the Blue Moon drinkers who don't really like beer otherwise.
you'd think at that price, craft breweries would be making a killing, but we're not. For the second time in 6 months I'm working at a brewery in liquidation (thankfully this time there is a buyer- not so lucky last time around). Breweries are going under all over the world: US, UK, Aus, NZ, bc the margins are slim and always have been. The fact the large breweries have lots of money comes down to economies of scale and the fact they've made an art of making beer with as little ingredient in it as possible. In a lot of countries excise tax is killing us too. In Aus, there's a brewery falling just about every week bc someone on a mission decided to put excise up to the point where it's third highest in the world. There's no lower rate for smaller producers in some countries. When I became a head brewer and started seeing the numbers I was shocked - sometimes excise is more than 50% of the cost of a beer.
@@dylanadams1455 yes, legalized theft is a major problem..don't get me started. But I also wonder how sustainable is having 9,000 breweries in the US- i tend to think that number is probably a symptom of the bad economy, not a boom, as jobs elsewhere have dried up, forcing people to try their hand at a brewery (that's my hypothesis). And it's not a coincidence that the boom in homebrewing 10-15 years ago was followed by the glut of new craft breweries, and having been involved in the industry for a while, i was sometimes puzzled/troubled when someone who made mediocre or even bad homebrew said they were opening a brewery. Maybe more people should have just stuck with homebrewing.
My view - whatever gets people into craft beer, hazy or otherwise has to be a good thing.I have a 23 yr old son - he'll happily drink a hazy (loves Clwb Tropica from Tiny Rebel) and that got him into the scene and away from lagers. He'd have never made that small journey drinking 'old man' ales like his old man! I like having them in the range, personally I think a Hazy Jane is pretty good and I've home brewed a few West Coast hazy kits (Muntons do a good one, but others are clearly available). We have to keep craft beer breweries in business! Arbor Ales in Bristol has an amazing range and Hazy IPAs have opened me up to tastes, aromas and styles I'd have never tried either.
Forgive me Johnny for commenting twice, but I watched the video twice and listened carefully. I also tracked down the "lost in a Haze" article and read that too. When I got to the part about beer drinkers only drinking hazies because they have been told to like them I invoultarily shouted "BULL$#!+"! I also feel a need to say that you and Brad are true beerlievers and I am sure that everyone that watches your channel feels the same way you do about the importance of brewing innovation, but also having respect and love for the world classic styles. Michael Jackson (R.I.P.) would be proud of you.
Ah yes, from the makers of "Is TV killing the radio?" and "Is hybrid working killing the office?", now there is this one. As you touched upon, times and the public taste will always change, Pilsener has temporarily killed off many historic styles, but they have been resurrected when in demand. Second, and this is more semantics than anything else, for something to 'kill' anything else, it should, in my opinion, be distinct from that other thing. 95% of Hazy IPA's brewed would fall under my definition of 'craft beer', so it would be hard for Hazy IPA to kill itself. Last but not least, we live in the most diverse beer world in at least 50 years. Even when three quarters of the tap list consists of Hazy IPA's, nobody is forcing you at gunpoint to drink them. You like other styles? Great! Let brewers know their other beers are still in demand and drink them! You are enjoying your beer and it might stimulate brewers to keep brewing them. Thank you for listening to my mini-rant.😂
OK, the hazy IPA focus as a good or bad thing for craft beer is a grossly misguided thing to focus on, at least in the U.S. As a pro brewer for 13 years and a beer lover long before that, I've been living and breathing all things beer and seen the trends over many areas of the U.S. Being in the military since 2000 and the Air National Guard since 2008 in a mostly part-time capacity, it's allowed to be do A LOT of traveling and gets me exposure to a lot of different demographics of people that many in the industry do not interact with very much. It definitely keeps me grounded in reality in terms what the general public knows and like on the alcohol front. From my wide perspective, the "downfall of craft beer" started as more people that got into the industry to start breweries that had little to no knowledge or passion for beer and brewing more than anything. These more business focused people had us brew more and more what sold most and ignored diversity of styles that what so common for years when brewers were also the owners calling the shots. Some of these owners looked at larger trends from the sales data that was available, which usually is generated for and focuses on large breweries with huge distribution networks to manage. We were forced to chase trends more and more. Some of this increase in owners/managers with less knowledge and passion for beer, coupled with newer waves of brewers that came of age with a solid craft beer presence, forgot or weren't aware of how much work it was to educate everyone on what beer was and could be beyond American Light Lager. With every person that came through the door, you had to check their level of knowledge and usually had to guide people through the beer styles to find what they liked most. For several years now, it seems most people just assume everyone knows all the basics of beer, but that absolutely nonsense, even beyond the fact someone comes of drinking age every day. Even though we blew past the 10% share of the market that we wondered if we'd ever achieve, craft beer is still a small percentage of beer sales in the U.S. and mostly around the world. The lack of education I see at most breweries isn't helping our cause. I certainly was one of the brewers that didn't welcome hype beer or NEIPAs with open arms, but back in 2009 I was saying a dry-hopped American wheat beer would be better than all the boring American wheat beers that were growing in popularity. IPA still wasn't the number one craft style on a national level with Amber still holding on with things like American wheats pretty popular, especially since more and more brewers were losing their minds with how bitter they can make an IPA. I think that stalled craft growth from what it could be until NEIPA came along--but even then, there are people to this day that will not touch an IPA because of the reputation is got during the first hop war. Also, so many people now only know craft beer as being IPA, which mostly started once IPA became the number on seller, but also due to the above issue of just brewing what sells the most. I was on the trip through Northern California in early 2019 and finally was able to go to Moonraker because they were never open when I went through before. It was really busy and they didn't list style types on most of their beers on the visible board, and didn't want to hold up the line when building my six-beer tasting flight--they all turned out to be NEIPAs (and they ALL looked identical!). A few stood out enough to tell they were different beers, but the others not so much. When I went to Knee Deep a month prior, 18 of 26 beers were an IPA or hop-forward Pale Ale. We did this to ourselves, and did a disservice to beer lovers and people coming to beer for the first time to try out. So in a way, hazy IPAs definitely ruined craft beer, but because so many breweries only really focused on brewing and hyping them more than anything else. Like I said, we did this to ourselves, but [mostly] used hazy IPAs to burn it all down.
I love going to breweries with a wider variety of brews AND they don't all taste the same. One brewery in Georgetown, I wish I liked it more, but all their beers taste the same. Pinthouse Pizza has a large selection and I think their #1 seller is "Jellyfish". It's their signature Hazy. IPAs were the last of the styles that I learned to enjoy. I still can't drink a Borbon barrel beer... never liked hard liquor. Now I like a good Hazy, DIPA or Imperial IPA.
We're losing established craft brewers and small indy brewers left right and centre here in NZ. Its simple economics. People arent wanting to spend 5 quid or higher for a can of craft... the budget doesnt allow, particularly when you can get tasty macro "craft" for 6 quid a six pack on special at the supermarket. Porter came to mind immediately when I saw where you were going. From a personal perspective I got into craft when it was all about IBU. But instayed interested despite of this. I've never been interested in uber bitter IPA's but there was always enough styles to keep me interested. That being said I'm a very keen ale drinker and ive always been fortunate to live in ale counties!
Hrm, hazies are the only IPAs I drink anymore, though I admit I don't drink them often. That intense bitterness was fun when I was new into crafts but these days I'm onto other things and I'm off the IPA train.
On the subject of what people drink, you don't necessarily have to do a survey, you can see what most breweries brew because they know it will sell well. The split between New England IPAs and other beer styles, like Porter, West Coast IPA, Bock, Lambic, Wheat is getting wider and wider. You can also see which beers are rated the highest on many apps or sites like ratebeer or untappd. I also don't think that the craft beer scene needs to develop too quickly and constantly, there are enough excellent breweries that have been brewing similar beers for 200-300 years and they are still respected. What I personally miss is a bit more variation in style and it's not a problem that people prefer some beer styles, this has always been the case, but it's a shame that in many of the larger webshops, for example, that I like to order from (beerdome, beer republic, beyond beer, beergium, beerloods22, bierothek etc.), NEIPAs often dominate and the ratio is 80/20 to West Cost, Double or Black IPAs as well as many other styles. I would also like to see fewer new beers, if necessary, but more different styles or new approaches. Yes, admittedly, it's great when there's something that leads people into this scene, but it can also become a vicious circle when everyone wants to ride the wave and mediocrity becomes the norm. I still think NEIPAs are a very interesting and exciting style of beer and I like to drink them so there's no misunderstanding, but just because I do doesn't mean I don't see problems. However, I am positive about the development of smaller and independent breweries. Cheers 🍻🍻
Great analysis as always..love your channel. Such vast knowledge! Here in Norway the hazy IPA are often looked at as a hipster thing (I guess due to the popularity you mention, whilst still being craft), and even if I can understand it, its a shame if enthusiasts become too cool for them..I mean where else does the real magic of hops unravel as much as with a well crafted NEIPA? (have you tasted Salikatt from Stavanger? Seriously great NEIPA and West Coast IPA as well)
I'll be honest, I think they have a point. I do like a good IPA here and there, but I feel like it's almost the only thing available in a lot of places touting themselves as having a great selection of beer. Far too often there's 20 different IPAs and barely anything else. Here in Australia, there are a lot of bottle shops where there's a few crappy lagers and two dozen IPAs to choose from. Not everywhere - we have a few decent shops, but with the more standard modern IPAs it's pretty clear that the target audience is people who are used to crappy lagers and are now trying something that isn't that but is, quite frequently, really not a hell of a lot different. The other thing, and this is a personal perspective that I know a lot of people will disagree with, I miss good balance. Sure, that may be old-fashioned of me, but an important element to beer used to be a good balance between the malt and the hops. Sometimes it's exciting to try something 'out there' but not all the time. Anyway, I'm probably just a relic of the past.
Thanks so much for all the thoughts on this episode - we couldn't keep up, but dug into some of the comments in our weekly podcast right here: th-cam.com/video/RjcxsmbZEJ0/w-d-xo.html
Never understood the so hoppy it tastes like pine coned in rubbing alcohol trend.
While the IPA is "flooding the taps", I also notice an increase in sours finding it's way to even more taps. At least here in Copenhagen.
But we do need more Bock!
I actually think mediocre beer is doing more harm than Hazy IPA's. Lately, I can go in and by a mixed 6 pack from my store and only 2 of them are worth drinking anymore. Mediocre beers keep me from buying beer . I just brew my own now because I'm tired of a 33% success rate...
I think that grocery store beer quality has probably taken a dive quality rise for the same reasons I state in the video about Hazy IPA being inevitable.
I agree but would add mediocre beer at high price point is doing more harm than good.
If I pay $24 for a 4 pack my expectations are higher than if I pay $16.
In my mind this stems from the hazy ipa craze. These are expensive beers to make well, a lot of them are mediocre from breweries brewing them down to a price for supermarkets.
@@TheCraftBeerChannel it’s been breweries around me too. To be fair our grocery store sells a lot of local beers. Out of the 20 or so breweries near me, 3 of them are worth going to. We don’t have a Treehouse or Trillium level brewery here where you can almost guarantee every beer is going to be solid. Maybe someday!
@@robross6462I agree, instead of spending $24 on a 4 pack that I have never heard of or a different style, I’ll stick to what I know
Hazy IPAs don't bother me, because I don't have to drink it. What I don't like is when I walk into a micro and out of 20 taps, 12 or more are some sort of hazy and nothing dark like a porter or stout.
Or a good Bitter , Amber or pale ale made with English hops, and a balance of malt and hops, unlike these dreadful beers , with no malt base at all
I have to say, as a professional brewer, I'm ready for hazies to go away. I hate going into a taproom and seeing 8+ of their 20 taps devoted to hazy IPAs.
As a fellow pro brewer i agree.
Only 8? 😂
Add me to the list of pro brewers who’s ready for the hazys to do one!
One more pro brewer chiming in to say I'm also tired of both brewing and seeing them.
It is slowing down in my area at least. Lagers and Westies are starting to dominate here.
I'm a professional drinker and I'm fed up of going into pubs and seeing 85% of the beers are pales.
My wife used to have zero interest in any IPA until she tried a Hazy and loved it. This past weekend she (of sound mind) ordered something described as "skunky" and thought it was great. Honestly, Hazy IPAs helped turn her into a beer geek and I'm loving it.
Whatever keeps the craft breweries in business and keeps us drinking tasty beer, I'm all for. Cheers!
Is she a beer geek though or does she just like hazy ipa?
Amen!
how long ago was that? I think there is more choice now for ipa to be approachable than before. Might be around 2017-2018 for sure when I first had a hazy. Before I had to try many different IPAs to see which I liked. In the last couple of years, I've paid more attention to hops to pick what beer to try if info is available.
@@andrewsteer8860 this is semantics really but you can be a beer geek and just like hazy ipa. Just like you can be a music geek and only love metal.
@@TheCraftBeerChannel it depends what is meant by the term geek in this case but I don’t disagree entirely
What I hate is watching "American IPA" on the list to then discover it was a hazy and worse, no option of a bitter, dry and clean IPA on the listings.
Indeed. Labelling needs to get better and hazy can't come to be IPA in general on beer boards
Thats a classic hazy in disguise. This has stopped me from trying new IPAs for a while. I saw one that was called "West Coast Hazy IPA". I was like, ummmm i dont think thats even possible.
@@threefiddyoneMidwest IPA is probably what it should have been called. Hazy with Westcoast bitterness
There are three pubs within walking distance of my home. Of the three, the closest you’ll get to any kind of ipa is Magic Rock’s Saucery in one pub.
If hazy IPAs are taking over, nobody has told large parts of the country. What we do have for those who don’t want macro lager and macro cider is local cask (Hooky, Shagweaver) and local cider (Napton Cidery).
My wife started with hazy IPAs and is now discovering she enjoys really bitter West Coast, Barley Wine, etc. And even an occasional lager 😮
I don't mind that Hazy IPAs exist, but I do think calling them IPAs is a big mistake. 5-10 years ago I could go into a supermarket and pick up a random IPA and I would like it 90% of the time. But now it's a crapshoot because so many breweries fail to make it clear that an IPA is hazy, and the IPA bucket is too broad. This has made me gunshy in my purchasing decisions, and I find myself just going back to reliable favorites rather than trying new IPAs unless they are explicitly labelled "West Coast". I think the poor labeling hurts everyone from consumers to the brewers.
Absolutely agree with this, even reading the minuscule writing on the back of the cans generally doesn’t help.
I have not gotten on the Haze Train, stayed where I was already. I did get frustrated to see some styles get swapped for Hazy, however that is changing back.
Indeed - balance is slowly being restored, as always happens in the craft brewing sector. Happened with the IBU wars of west coast IPA a decade ago
I have seen it effect beer in general with bitterness. Many beers that used to be historically quite bitter, are now less bitter and/or sweeter. One, because of the consumer demand asking for less bitterness, and two, hops being bred for brighter juicy flavors. I crave bitterness to come back into play. I think there used to be a more defined role for bitterness to play in hazy, that's been continually pushed away.
I'm glad the IBU wars are over and Mexican style lagers are crushing it right now, another indication that overall public taste is leaning towards crispness, but low bitterness.
I started on more bitter styles, and expect balanced styles to win in the end.
Crispness or dryness can be used to achieve balance, as well as traditional hop bitterness.
It has certainly caused that but equally bitterness appears to be increasing in hazy beer again so I think an adjustment is happening.
@@Roy_1 I agree with you overall, and I certainly am not suggesting we return to chasing the highest IBU counts. I do think “balance” is a tough thing to achieve in this style. It usually flies in the face of balance. I have just noticed over the years it seems we’ve pushed the envelope so far in the other direction, it can be too much. Just my take. It doesn’t help there are a lot of bad representations of the style as well.
Barrel Aged stouts and sours are also doing pretty well here in USA
My local bottle shop, although predominantly hazies does a monthly sub box showcasing all styles. A great way of introducing others to the diversity of beer!
I would love to see a study / studies) on how our drinking habits have changed as well, particularly when apparently, younger generations are drinking less- how does that affect buying habits and the ways in which we choose the beer we drink?
At the tender age of 36, my personal favourite way to drink beer now is at beer festivals or anywhere where I can access flights. I rarely go out to drink because it's so expensive (in Finland) and when I do, I want maximum value for my experience. Trying several different beers at 100 - 150ml measurements is such a joy to me and I would LOVE to see more bars and pubs offer this. 15€ for 2 pints (usually focusing on what I know / like) or 15€ for 0.5L (ish) of several wildly different beers, some I never would have touched at 7-8€ a go is just perfect for my tastes. If I could pick up 'flight packs' of several 100ml cans covering a range of styles to take home and drink, I'd be in absolute heaven!
I don't see the article writer's point, beyond also being frustrated at seeing sometimes 75% of taps dominated by cloudy IPAs- but it's less about taking choice away I think and more about bars and pubs pushing things like flights to get people excited about the beauty and variety of beer out there- by making it as accessible as possible. For most people (I think), beer is just beer, and the experience matters just as much as the product. So rather than get gatekeepery and nerd-ragey about what we see in our own bubble- I totally agree that we need to continue to find ways to make craft more accessible and removing options from the menu doesn't do that. And that's coming from me- someone who actively avoids cloudy IPAs. Just because I'm bored / frustrated at seeing the same stuff on the shelves / drink lists constantly, it doesn"t mean I want others to lose what thet enjoy. Just drink what you want to drink and enjoy the success of our lovely craft brewers 🍻
It’s taken over the world because it is gorgeous.
This is the right take.
💯
Yep, pretty much 85% of what I drink.
My craft brew journey began when West Coast IPA was the trend. BRING BACK WCIPA! I want to smell a Pine forest and drink a Christmas tree 🤣
Absolutely the same..
Couldn’t have said it better myself. Hazy IPA sells because a large portion of beer drinkers think it’s delicious and listening to countless brewers they’ll tell you how important it is to their overall business and giving them the ability to make other styles.
It’s probably true that there are a few too many hazy IPAs on at a given time at a tap room, but something to consider is that to some of us they’re not all carbon copies of each other. Different hop combos bring out different nuances in flavors that we enjoy exploring. I’d also say it’s the single most important style to drink relatively fresh (within at least 3 months, preferably 2 if kept cold) which may affect some people’s opinions of it if they’re buying a 6 month old hazy at a grocery from a brewery that doesn’t make a great example in the first place.
Hazy IPA is my favorite style, but I at least enjoy every style of beer to some extent and love some other styles nearly as much as hazies(namely lagers, stouts, and traditional mixed ferm styles). I don’t think there’s any need in this community to crap on other styles. We’re literally living in the best time you ever could for beer. You can get anything your heart desires. One day hazy IPAs won’t be king of the hill anymore and it’ll be something else, but just enjoy the ride. It’s just beer. 😁
That’s one way of framing it, I think conversely you could also say with some validity that it’s the worst time in the last 15 years for craft in terms of variety and dedication to experimentation. Long gone are the days of going into a bar to see Wild Beer saison, Kernel IPAs, stuff like Partizan, Magic Rock when it was smashing it etc etc. Every craft bar in my area is seemingly happy to serve up a dozen iterations of bland ‘juicy’ pales, all happy to operate within an ever decreasing flavour bandwidth. Back to cask for me!
@@robertloader9826 I generally agree there are a few too many hazy IPAs on at most places but they also sell really well because they’re in demand. Most of the places I’m going though I still see a really good mix of styles and I get around to a lot of different breweries. There are some places like Other Half for example where 95% of their taps are hazy IPAs, but that’s what they specialize in and what you would expect walking in.
I also love me some funky saisons and West Coast IPAs as well. I think there’s a resurgence of new school West Coast IPAs that are going to blow up in the next few years. Basically pulling the crystal malt out to be a super low SRM, bitterness in like the 50-70 IBU range and using new school hops instead of only the old school C hops. I’m seeing most breweries starting to make some form of those now.
@@curtisbrause9255 Yeah we’re not talking about Other Half here though mate, you’d be surprised at quite how formulaic and dull UK hazy pales, with honourable exceptions, have become. A resurgence in West Coast IPAs would be very, very welcome! The supply from the US to here though is practically non-existent outside of real specialists, of which there are few.
@@robertloader9826 Ahhh you’re in the UK. That makes sense as it is and English channel after all. I’ve seen Verdant and Cloudwater mentioned quite a lot on this channel as being awesome but I believe you if you’re saying most are pretty average.
Here in the U.S. there are also quite a few average to bad producers of hazy IPAs (since everyone has to make them basically) but also a lot that are excellent. You just kind of have to know who’s doing a really good job making them. Other Half probably isn’t a fair example because they’re legit like a top 3 (top 5 at worst) producer of that style.
We were in the UK in 2018 by the way and thoroughly enjoyed all the beer there. I drank as much cask ale as I could since we rarely see it in the states.
@@curtisbrause9255 Yeah we’ve always got the cask mate thankfully! I’m in Manchester so lucky to have great cask on our doorstep plus great keg from Cloudwater, Track, Sureshot etc too, but the creep of homogenous hazy pale is a wider phenomenon it seems. 🍻
There's two things that have killed my love for craft beer
1. Hazy/New England IPAs that taste like grapefruit. I was over that flavor 10 years ago when brewers started using Cascade hops for everything and my hatred increases annually.
2. The hard selzter boom. At least where I live, hard seltzer is absolutely dominating the shelf space in supermarkets and convenience stores and pushing aside all but the most popular craft beers. Yes, beer stores exist, but until recently I haven't had to make a trip to one in over ten years
I don't know, I feel like Hazys peaked a year ago or so. I got really into them and now I'm kind of burned out on them. I've been going back to regular IPAs.
Well that's BRILLIANT news - it's great that you went all in, then went for something different! This is what so many people are saying doesn't happen. Also, I agree that the hype around these beers is fading, but the volumes are still going up as the style normalises.
Hey Johnny just so you know cask ale is alive and well here in the states. My wife and I are going to Seneca lake in the finger lakes region of New York next week and one of the breweries we will be visiting is Seneca lake brewing company that specializes in traditional and authentic cask ale. The only ipa they have is an “English ipa”. Their food features meat pies and pasties with mashed potatoes and mushy peas!
"You can't project your palate on to someone else" is a sentence a lot of people need to hear! As a beer geek and speciality coffee drinker myself it's important to know how to communicate nicely with someone that has different tastes!
I appreciate you took the time to be level headed about a polarizing topic. I definitely agree the love of hazy ipa is more of a symptom than a cause and I certainly agree it brings more people into craft beer. I can think of a few breweries that seem to lean too hard into the trend and might go under if hazys drop in popularity, but this world is full of people too quick to criticize and gate-keep. Drink what you like, explore if you wish and the market will adjust.
If Hazies mean more Flanders Reds and Rauchbiers, I'm all for them.
Well I'm not so much saying that, more that there wouldn't be the opportunity for those styles without hazy ipa. Brewers need to use that opportunity!
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Yep, that's what I'm getting at as well, agreed. Just being frivolous.
Living in a town where the closest bottle shop is about 15 miles away I get most of my beer either online or from supermarkets, the fact that I can get many different styles of craft beer even in Tesco (including St. Bernardus abt 12 these days!) tells me that craft beer is doing fine although wish someone would open a bottle shop here!
Hiya from Bellingham in Washington State, USA…
I work as a server and bartender at a pretty popular brewery here in town, and we’re best known for hazy IPAs because that’s what our founder has brewed for the longest. But at this point
I have basically converted many many beer drinkers (coors, bud, etc) to craft beers. Now those people are dabbling in many other types and are impressed with the options.
I drink mostly "hazy" IPA's but also will drink bitter IPAs, stouts, scotch ales, winter warmers, oh my favorite Imperial everything haha
Absolutely outstanding, Jonny. The worlds a better place because of it. I for one certainty wouldn't be subscribed and loving content such as this if it wasn't for a couple of well marketed hazys 6/7 years ago. 👍
As always, a well researched and balanced view to this argument. I have also been at times dismissive about the 'fad' of NEIPAS. Then, yesterday, I bought a can of Brew By Numbers' hazy India Pale Ale No 5 just because it was on offer. Although NOT an IPA in the true sense, it was absolutely delicious accompanying a spicy dahl. As a long-time fan of cask, I have embraced the diversity of these styles. That's what makes beer so astoundingly amazing.
At least in the Eastern US, I think we are seeing growing interest in more traditional malty beers like Scottish ales and various Belgian styles. I suspect that's the next big thing.
I think the trend now is more craft pilsners. Makes sense, smaller breweries are now so technically proficient they can pull it off. Partly because they need the same kinds of low DO equipment and canning or botteling lines for the super hoppy beers.
Well said Jonny. I went the same route. Got into craft beer pre the haze craze, but really got nerdy when New England took over before looping back round to my current favourite styles of pilsner, west coast IPA (where craft beer started for me) and bitter (where BEER in general started for me). I still love a pillowy pale though. P.S. I just got back from the Verdant tap room vinyl night, a lovely community party with locals dropping their favourite tunes and enjoying (primarily hazy) beers. We should send this wally to Penryn and see if they still think hazy beer is stagnating the industry.
I put it down to Lazy Journalists who very rarely venture into pubs bars or tap rooms. I love all kinds of IPA'S but I also crave Mild and Bitter come the weekend. Great video mate.
You are making beer culture better. Thank you sir
When some of my favourite craft went up 50% in price I stopped buying craft 6 months ago. Found a lager from a “big brewery” that tastes great and costs half as much as craft. Sadly I think my craft exploration is over.
Not sure craft has gone up by 50% but I appreciate your point. It will be craft breweries' biggest task in the modern market to persuade people they are deserving of custom at their price point
A great video Jonny and it always fascinates me how you can sit in front of a camera and have a discussion covering a few different sides of the discussion, great job as always. What would also be an interesting topic is why has Hazy IPA been 'The Style' that the craft beer industry has latched onto, most UK drinkers have come through the ranks of cask ale or lager so why did we latch onto Hazy's.
I guess the drinkers didn't want Hazy IPA in the beginning but were more so introduced to it from the breweries experimenting with the accessible American hops. So was it the influx of craft breweries pushing it into the industry and in some ways driving the Hype to make us want it and want more of it...the good old days of getting on a website at 9am trying to get a beer that was sold out by 9.10am!
Great idea for a video! Might well dig into that and see if I can make something
Very interested to hear you mention Verdant Helles. We visited their Seafood Bar by the harbour in Falmouth and I started working my way down the chalk board. My wife is definitely not a ‘beer geek’ and so went for the Helles. I tried it and was blown away. Had to buy her another one! I like the style anyway, from lots of trips to Bavaria and Austria, but what Verdant are managing to extract from their use of Hallertauer Mittelfrüh hops took it to another level. Inspired me to buy a pack from The Malt Miller and have another go myself!
I do love my hazy IPA’s but at the moment I’m enjoying a st. Bernardus pater 6, brilliant beer. Cheers!👍🏻🍻
Tried my first Hazy IPA about four months ago; loved the citrus and pineapple! Thought I hated IPA because it seemed a race to make a better pine-cone taste. Spent good deal of cash looking at what's out there, and all for the better!
I am so over done with Hazy Beers, at 59 I have been become a beer W****r and find every hazy tastes pretty much the same. I love a West Coast and currently my favourite is Bone Shaker by the Amsterdam Brewery (Canada) 100 IBUs. Happy to bring a few back to the UK for you. My first stray away from real ales was Brewdog, it was different and I've progressed. I've even gone back to Pilsners like ABK. But you can't beat a decent keg beer which is my daily drinker.
Great video with really good points made. I'm not a massive craft beer guy but this vid has educated me thanks keep up the great work!
I was obsessed with hazies for a few years, but they kind of ran their course for me. I still like them, but I usually order other styles now. Cheers!
Glad to hear this is a journey people are taking! Many writers and brewers think this doesn't happen.
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Once you go hazy....
The Hazy IPA trend that you speak of is only the covergirl [and catalyst] for the real problem with Craft Beer in general - whether on-promise or off-promise - consumer prices are through the roof. When a beer costs more than a premium glass of wine there's a serious issue. A 4pack can be $20-30 USD or well over $100 for a case. Same for the Craft Distillers who have driven up industry prices as a whole where they're asking for $80-120 USD for a mediocre bottle of 4yo whiskey just because it's "craft" from a 2-man operation with a beer keg potstill. Like any other trend-driven industry, the market gets flooded and contraction is inevitable. And I will smile.
The bigger issue in my view is gen Z don't drink much and if they do they don't drink beer. Would like to see that discussed and what we could do about it to preserve our hobby
Haha we've thought about this one. It feels.... wrong to encourage people who don't drink to take it up so it's a very difficult thing to talk about. I think the industry needs to fight its corner on public health, explain it's socio-cultural benefits.... and also brew more beer around 4%
@@TheCraftBeerChannel Yeah definitely, it's a tough subject to talk about. It's absolutely a positive that the younger generation isn't consuming as much alcohol, it would be very bad optics to try and devise ways to get them to consume more haha.
This is not an issue. Craft breweries only have to take a larger market share. Less drinking overall means the few drinks you do buy will have to be worth it. Also locally produced, organic, etc are trends not likely to disappear. This speaks in favor of craft breweries. We should push for quality or diversity of styles and flavor. Not more drinking per se.
I would tell people "Drink what you like" as Jonny said in the video. I would also tell people "Be adventurous. You might find something new to you that you will enjoy." I confess that when i see someone come into my local microbrewery, and they dont see every tap having a hazy and bomb the place on Untappt, to getting annoyed. You made the trip. Give the beer an honest try.
Spot on Johnny - whilst I’ve become weary and find a lot of Hazy IPA’s to be too expensive, if it helps the breweries survive and allowing them to spend the money and diversify in other areas, then great.
I understand why the prices are so high for a lot of fashionable IPA’s, but these beers are too rich for me. That said, that’s for people to choose and it’s great to have such variety.
Here (Georgia), the craft beer revolution sparked desite hazies not being made until about 3-4 years ago, since hazies have been made its only accelerated the interest and growth. Hazy pales have taken over from wheat beers and unfiltered lagers as craft beer drinkers session beers. Its just part of the machine. Now we have a load of great hazy beer, it hasnt stopped brewers making a huge variety of excellent beers that loads of people enjoy including locally inspired new flavours - clay qvevri fermented wine ales, fruited sours with indigenous fruit, and even spiced “soup beers”.
Bad quality and uninspiring macro “craft beer” is more of an issue as it puts off newbies who use it as an entry point due to it’s available in the supermarket.
Absolutely true. Hazy IPA needs to be an option at a brewery...not the entire list. When I go to breweries and there are 8 hazys on the board it's a sure sign of laziness and usually a poor brewery experience due to lack of variety.
In my USA grocery store, we have bad domestic beers that are basically water and hazy IPAs. What I'd give for just a regular clean IPA or a nice pils or kolsch.
I’m fortunate to have a dozen craft breweries around my town and they make all varieties of beer, and do a great job of it. I’m also a home brewer and the past few batches I’ve made have been hazy IPA’s because they are delicious and great in the summer. The cost of ingredients and massive inflation in the US is what is going to hurt the sales of craft beer.
Exactly that. Hazy IPA is the symptom, not the cause, and the cause will shift.
My favourite styles of Beer right now are Lagers, Westies and Bitters but without the Hazy IPA I wouldn't have discovered craft and therefore I'd be drinking Macro Lager and not Donzoko and Utopian which are absolutely outstanding. I'd be drinking Timmy Taylors either way still.
Great clip. Lots of macro lager-drinking people I know personally have become rather fond of the NEIPA, particularly the hazy stuff. It appears to be the gateway drink to other craft beers... And in pubs where there used to be 5 macro lagers and a John Smiths on tap, you now see a couple of (often hazy) IPAs..... I cannot see how this situation is threatening craft beer...
I went to school in Burlington Vermont when Heady Topper was big and people were buying it for $20 a can. It was insane. People would follow the delivery truck around, I would get a 4 pack and mail my uncle a single can to his glee. It was totally ridiculous.
I enjoy the NEIPA. I tend to go for Saisons, Kolsch, and some IPAs depending on the hops used. The NEIPA for me is my nice weather drink. Tho a shandy also fills that spot.
And perhaps blasphemy, Sam Adams Just the Haze, low alcoholic version is quite tasty.
My local bottle shop/tap room has 16 beers on tap and 6 are IPA’s
Just happen to be watching this while sippin on Beak's hazy IPA collab with Uchu Brewing, loving it. 🍺
Pales/hazys are usually my go to style beer as I find they're so easy and delicious to drink and living in a place like Lewes it's not hard to find a great hazy when you've got the luxury of two breweries that specialise in making them (Beak & Abyss). However, that's not to say I'll only drink that style of beer as I also enjoy lagers, sours, and darker beers too - and with it being beer festival season it's the perfect opportunity to discover and taste some styles outside of the hazy stuff!
I can understand their point. Often I'll go to a taphouse and cannot even get hold of a West Coast because it's just a haze craze. My favourite beers ever have been hazy's, but they're a bit like grey squirrels now.
Sure. But like I say in the video, that's not what's holding craft back, a shift is already happening, and without it many breweries would have gone under.
@@TheCraftBeerChannel definitely agree, as the first beers that really blew me away and made me fall in love with beer were NEIPAs. I just feel as though it’s slightly difficult to get cask and keg westies, and when I do find a good one it feels so rewarding
I make no bones about it, hazys got me into craft beer. If it wasn't for hazys I wouldn't have tried the multitude of styles I now love and drink regularly. To me, a good beer is a good beer! I've got no time for gate-keeping and will drink whatever I enjoy.
Cheers to you and Brad for all the hard work you do 🍻
Thank you and thanks for the comment. So good to hear that was your journey!
From a Brit Brewer in a Canadian market perspective. They are expensive to make, Citra/Mosaic isn't interesting anymore and the market is saturated with sweet, same tasting, hazy beers (they don't interest me at all).
Budget Lagers are a growing in the "craft" market and it's a race to the bottom in competition for shelf space.
Majority of drinkers are looking to ABV to get bang for the buck in IPA, or for cheap lagers. Just my opinion though.
Got to agree with your comments about IPAs , they are everywhere .Living in the UK there are still classic examples of the style e.g Shepherd Neame IPA.
Worthington White Shield was another classic but has been mothballed by it's halfwit owners Molson Coors.
Although I like some of the new IPAs such as Buxton's "King Slayer"(8%) I have gravitated back to the vast array of Belgian beer styles , where quality and difference is assured.
Is there a better beer than Orval or anything to match the eccentricity of the Geuze/Lambic style?
As soon as the money boys get involved in anything the customer is the last thing on their minds.
I have been drinking craft beer for the past 20 years and after having some of the best barrel aged imperial stouts, ipa, largers,, Hefeweizen, sours, there are only two types of beer that I enjoy drinking are hazy ipa and a nice barley wine
I work as a brewmaster in Switzerland and I feel like here the hazy trend is already dieing before it really took off. It was a thing obviously but the general public outside of the beer scene probably never heard of it.
If I was too chose a hype ``style`` it has too be non-alcoholic beer. It´s the style that´s driving innovation, money gets invested and it´s a great way too show-off for any brewery because it takes a lot of technical skills to get it right.
Thanks for the nuanced analysis, Johnny. I must be a really lazy drinker... I've not yet had any hazy IPA. 😂
Well Done Johnny informative and thought provoking what more could we ask for....... I am not the biggest fan of NEIPA but not a hater, the diverse types of beer is whats important for me and brewers do need to make a living so can see why so many jump on, but I think it all settles out overall, great video, how have you not been signed up for mainstream TV.....there loss is our gain.....
I remember became popular back in like 02 and in like 07 it was clear bitter ipa
This was a really good kind of video. Well done.
Hazy IPA’s have saturated the market as they’re the most popular “craft” beer style. Unfortunately like all good things you can get a little sick of them and I’m personally pushing back towards West Coast IPA’s and other styles
I think the whole market is but my point is that while they drove demand they did a lot of good, and don't have any of the negative impacts writers and brewers are trying to claim
@@TheCraftBeerChannelYeah, 100% it’s been good for craft beer and got a lot of people into drinking better beer and it’s probably still my favourite style all said and done, I’m just a little hazied out currently.
I hadn’t even thought about what my favorite style of beer was until this video. And now that I think about it, it’s hazy IPA.
In 2018 after drinking a Verdant hazy DIPA, I naively posted on a certain craft beer Facebook group " how im sick of hazy ipas and is that all craft beer is now about?". I then left the group, apparently it caused quite a stir and the bloke who ran Cloudwater back then discussed my post on his page . My claim to beer fame.
I just appreciate the balance and genuine thought you bring to the topic.
I love Hazy and it definitely was one of the styles that got me into Craft beer but probably my only critique of it is that there isn’t too much variety anymore. From my experience, Hazies fall into 3 categories: full on juice with some bitterness mixed in (love this one), balance of juiciness and hoppiness and leaning more towards the bitter end. Almost every time I go to a brewery in NJ and parts of PA, when I have a Hazy I’ll think to myself “I’ve had this exact brew at X brewery before”.
Hazy beer isn’t hurting the industry right now but the over saturation is gonna cause a bubble to burst for that specific style. Hopefully by the time that bubble does burst a new staple will come around
My local brewery has started brewing ONLY hazies, at first I was extatic to find a local hazy brewer. After a few months my pallet is starting to become unable to distinguish their beers and is missing some diversity
Well I guess they have to do what they have to do to survive, hopefully they bring other styles back as tastes change
I think to many breweries tries to be cool and hip. I would like to see more breweries do lager, helles etc.
When i see a brewery close i ask 3 questions:
1) have i seen them on keg/cask recently or are their small pack beers available through common craft retailers/available to small shops via common wholesalers?
2) do they have a core range?
3) are the beers they have most commonly available all one style or closely similar styles?
You can have the best brewery in the world but if their sales team cant/or unable to get their beer to the right market then a matter of time before that brewery closes.
Supermarkets cause retailers not to buy certains beers from breweries. I think north had that problem for a long time, yes they overstretched themselves with their bars but that also what made them attractive to the new owners.
Yes craft is cyclical but business is business.
Ridiculously overhopped, hazy ales are just a tedious cordial.
I like to be able to see through my beer.
I run a small craft beer bar, Vinny and Ted, in an area were craft is still new for most of the people who walk though our door. Most of the time when i have the joy of introducing new people to craft and we talk about flavours in beer and what we have, I know that NEIPA, hazy pales and juciy IPAs are most likly what im going to be pouring for them. I feel like for a lot of people the hazy low bitterness styles, were you get bang for your buck flavour wise, is importantly is accessible for new people. As well as people who have been enjoying craft for a few years wanting something fomilear. There are people who come in and just ask for ' a hazy one', as they think that is what they are supost to say, but I feel like its my job to talk about flavor and what they actualy want to drink. I always try to have a mixed selaction and recomend new styles to people as I feel that gets newer people into trying new styles. However i know i need at least two to thee lines (out of 11) that are 'Hazy' in one way or another. I see your points about it not killing the indestry but with the groth and a larger propoton of the population drinking craft we need to Accept that the more acssesable styles will be more numous then less acssesable styles Like sours, Sasions, rauchbier, ect. I hope there are more people like me out there getting people into drinking craft and talking about as many styles of beer as possible otherwise i do feel like they may be sidelined.
Sorry for ramberling.
Great comment I appreciate the insight and agree with you on how this is going to play out
Porter/stout was the best selling type of beer in Ireland from the late 19th century to 1999.
I have converted many a macro drinker and indeed non beer drinkers with my hazies , I do like to mix it up my latest is a american pale ale and Oktoberfest but I think the next will be a hazy nothing better to introduce the carling drinker to craft
I like Sierra Nevada's approach to "hazys" as they come off as more like hybrids to me. But pure straight up hazy's generally aren't my cup of tea.
Appointment viewing for me for every episode. I am lucky, I live in between Trillium and Treehouse, both 19 miles away. Having world class NEIPAs gives me confidence that when they add different styles,I will still welcome them. More importantly, the editing pace and use of turn to camera was crisp!
I have seen a negative effect from various "hazy IPA" releases. Breweries have all, to some degree, jumped on the hazy bandwagon. The problem, from my view, is that only 60-70% of breweries are capable of a half-decent hazy, BUT only 20% are making the effort. The rest are producing shite that turns off new craft drinkers AND drinkers that rely on big breweries. A massive release from a big brewing concern can turn a whole generation off of craft beer by saying "this is a hazy" and presenting the drinkers with some cloudy rubbish that tastes bland and watery.
I like almost every style and got into craft beer sometime in the early 2010s. I go out to a new brewery and I sometimes want to try other styles - but so many times I end up getting a hazy.....because they are effing delicious!! What can I say?
Granted, if I go to a place that specializes in something else I will make a point to try it and I do have other moods. But dang - I probably buy a hazy 85% of the time? I do get in the mood for some bitterness from time to time.
One thing I've also thought about with modern IPA's is the maturation of the style - instead of the "bitterness" arms race brewers are bringing out the nuance of the hops. I find it similar to what happened with 3rd wave coffee. Why buy expensive beans then roast them until they all taste the same.....
ok - I could go on and on. I'll stop.
The data I'm seeing is that IPAs in general make up 46% of the craft beer market (in the us.) I can't imagine that 39% would be west coast ipas, so can I ask where you got that 7% figure from?
Very well said. If you think that hazy IPA is killing craft beer you clearly haven’t understood what Craft means. And I say that as someone who’s not a big fan of hazy or indeed any kind of IPAs. I would recommend linking your What is Craft video from I think last year for further education.
I found this video because I was searching for the reason so many offerings are now hazys. I started my craft journey in the early 00s with Bell’s Oberon. That led me to my first American IPA in Two Hearted, which to this day is a favorite of mine. Yes, I know it’s a different company. I worked as a bartender then and began to chase the IBU dragon with likeminded co-workers and customers . At some point in the mid 10’s the IBUs became just too damn overpowering. So many beers were not well balanced and quite honestly the decision fatigue living in a craft beer state made it that much easier to go back to tried and true. I never caught the hazy train and have transitioned most of my discretionary alcohol spending to whiskey these days. If anything the IBU revolution has me go full circle back to macro beers. If I’m enjoying a beer it will more than likely be a Guinness, seasonal beers like Oberon , a Marzen, or Two Hearted if I’m feeling it. I still check on new labels at my local store occasionally and I can tell from packaging dates the craft beer trend is definitely slowing down, which is rather unfortunate. I’m sure there’s a hazy I’d like but I don’t want to explore 10 different offerings from my local taproom or store when my time is limited. I’d rather enjoy something I know I’ll like.
$8 a pint in tap rooms, $16+ for 4 cans in a bottle shop which have little or no info about the beer and often don't have any kind of packaging date - these things are not helping. As for hazies, most of them taste like a sickly sweet sugar bomb and are more for the Blue Moon drinkers who don't really like beer otherwise.
you'd think at that price, craft breweries would be making a killing, but we're not. For the second time in 6 months I'm working at a brewery in liquidation (thankfully this time there is a buyer- not so lucky last time around). Breweries are going under all over the world: US, UK, Aus, NZ, bc the margins are slim and always have been. The fact the large breweries have lots of money comes down to economies of scale and the fact they've made an art of making beer with as little ingredient in it as possible. In a lot of countries excise tax is killing us too. In Aus, there's a brewery falling just about every week bc someone on a mission decided to put excise up to the point where it's third highest in the world. There's no lower rate for smaller producers in some countries. When I became a head brewer and started seeing the numbers I was shocked - sometimes excise is more than 50% of the cost of a beer.
@@dylanadams1455 yes, legalized theft is a major problem..don't get me started. But I also wonder how sustainable is having 9,000 breweries in the US- i tend to think that number is probably a symptom of the bad economy, not a boom, as jobs elsewhere have dried up, forcing people to try their hand at a brewery (that's my hypothesis). And it's not a coincidence that the boom in homebrewing 10-15 years ago was followed by the glut of new craft breweries, and having been involved in the industry for a while, i was sometimes puzzled/troubled when someone who made mediocre or even bad homebrew said they were opening a brewery. Maybe more people should have just stuck with homebrewing.
My view - whatever gets people into craft beer, hazy or otherwise has to be a good thing.I have a 23 yr old son - he'll happily drink a hazy (loves Clwb Tropica from Tiny Rebel) and that got him into the scene and away from lagers. He'd have never made that small journey drinking 'old man' ales like his old man! I like having them in the range, personally I think a Hazy Jane is pretty good and I've home brewed a few West Coast hazy kits (Muntons do a good one, but others are clearly available). We have to keep craft beer breweries in business! Arbor Ales in Bristol has an amazing range and Hazy IPAs have opened me up to tastes, aromas and styles I'd have never tried either.
Forgive me Johnny for commenting twice, but I watched the video twice and listened carefully. I also tracked down the "lost in a Haze" article and read that too. When I got to the part about beer drinkers only drinking hazies because they have been told to like them I invoultarily shouted "BULL$#!+"! I also feel a need to say that you and Brad are true beerlievers and I am sure that everyone that watches your channel feels the same way you do about the importance of brewing innovation, but also having respect and love for the world classic styles. Michael Jackson (R.I.P.) would be proud of you.
Damn thanks for this lovely comment. I wish I could have met MJ.
I think I enjoy a TIPA more than any bottle of wine. Same goes for Omnipolo style BIG stouts.
Ah yes, from the makers of "Is TV killing the radio?" and "Is hybrid working killing the office?", now there is this one. As you touched upon, times and the public taste will always change, Pilsener has temporarily killed off many historic styles, but they have been resurrected when in demand. Second, and this is more semantics than anything else, for something to 'kill' anything else, it should, in my opinion, be distinct from that other thing. 95% of Hazy IPA's brewed would fall under my definition of 'craft beer', so it would be hard for Hazy IPA to kill itself. Last but not least, we live in the most diverse beer world in at least 50 years. Even when three quarters of the tap list consists of Hazy IPA's, nobody is forcing you at gunpoint to drink them. You like other styles? Great! Let brewers know their other beers are still in demand and drink them! You are enjoying your beer and it might stimulate brewers to keep brewing them. Thank you for listening to my mini-rant.😂
Great rant, totally agree.
OK, the hazy IPA focus as a good or bad thing for craft beer is a grossly misguided thing to focus on, at least in the U.S. As a pro brewer for 13 years and a beer lover long before that, I've been living and breathing all things beer and seen the trends over many areas of the U.S. Being in the military since 2000 and the Air National Guard since 2008 in a mostly part-time capacity, it's allowed to be do A LOT of traveling and gets me exposure to a lot of different demographics of people that many in the industry do not interact with very much. It definitely keeps me grounded in reality in terms what the general public knows and like on the alcohol front.
From my wide perspective, the "downfall of craft beer" started as more people that got into the industry to start breweries that had little to no knowledge or passion for beer and brewing more than anything. These more business focused people had us brew more and more what sold most and ignored diversity of styles that what so common for years when brewers were also the owners calling the shots. Some of these owners looked at larger trends from the sales data that was available, which usually is generated for and focuses on large breweries with huge distribution networks to manage. We were forced to chase trends more and more. Some of this increase in owners/managers with less knowledge and passion for beer, coupled with newer waves of brewers that came of age with a solid craft beer presence, forgot or weren't aware of how much work it was to educate everyone on what beer was and could be beyond American Light Lager. With every person that came through the door, you had to check their level of knowledge and usually had to guide people through the beer styles to find what they liked most. For several years now, it seems most people just assume everyone knows all the basics of beer, but that absolutely nonsense, even beyond the fact someone comes of drinking age every day. Even though we blew past the 10% share of the market that we wondered if we'd ever achieve, craft beer is still a small percentage of beer sales in the U.S. and mostly around the world. The lack of education I see at most breweries isn't helping our cause.
I certainly was one of the brewers that didn't welcome hype beer or NEIPAs with open arms, but back in 2009 I was saying a dry-hopped American wheat beer would be better than all the boring American wheat beers that were growing in popularity. IPA still wasn't the number one craft style on a national level with Amber still holding on with things like American wheats pretty popular, especially since more and more brewers were losing their minds with how bitter they can make an IPA. I think that stalled craft growth from what it could be until NEIPA came along--but even then, there are people to this day that will not touch an IPA because of the reputation is got during the first hop war. Also, so many people now only know craft beer as being IPA, which mostly started once IPA became the number on seller, but also due to the above issue of just brewing what sells the most. I was on the trip through Northern California in early 2019 and finally was able to go to Moonraker because they were never open when I went through before. It was really busy and they didn't list style types on most of their beers on the visible board, and didn't want to hold up the line when building my six-beer tasting flight--they all turned out to be NEIPAs (and they ALL looked identical!). A few stood out enough to tell they were different beers, but the others not so much. When I went to Knee Deep a month prior, 18 of 26 beers were an IPA or hop-forward Pale Ale. We did this to ourselves, and did a disservice to beer lovers and people coming to beer for the first time to try out.
So in a way, hazy IPAs definitely ruined craft beer, but because so many breweries only really focused on brewing and hyping them more than anything else. Like I said, we did this to ourselves, but [mostly] used hazy IPAs to burn it all down.
Agree, hazy doesn't overwelm. In Belgium they not easy to find, btw.
I love going to breweries with a wider variety of brews AND they don't all taste the same. One brewery in Georgetown, I wish I liked it more, but all their beers taste the same. Pinthouse Pizza has a large selection and I think their #1 seller is "Jellyfish". It's their signature Hazy. IPAs were the last of the styles that I learned to enjoy. I still can't drink a Borbon barrel beer... never liked hard liquor. Now I like a good Hazy, DIPA or Imperial IPA.
We're losing established craft brewers and small indy brewers left right and centre here in NZ. Its simple economics. People arent wanting to spend 5 quid or higher for a can of craft... the budget doesnt allow, particularly when you can get tasty macro "craft" for 6 quid a six pack on special at the supermarket.
Porter came to mind immediately when I saw where you were going. From a personal perspective I got into craft when it was all about IBU. But instayed interested despite of this. I've never been interested in uber bitter IPA's but there was always enough styles to keep me interested. That being said I'm a very keen ale drinker and ive always been fortunate to live in ale counties!
Hrm, hazies are the only IPAs I drink anymore, though I admit I don't drink them often. That intense bitterness was fun when I was new into crafts but these days I'm onto other things and I'm off the IPA train.
It's gotten hard to find a good brown ale. A lot of the time, all I can find is Newcastle, if I can even find that.
Leffe brown
I used to love west coast high IBU IPAs but I got tired of it and only occasionally grab one.
Wonderful video as usual.
Some experienced beer drinkers are even ending up with good IPA’s, not starting out that way. The hops-fwd style is what many people seem to like.
On the subject of what people drink, you don't necessarily have to do a survey, you can see what most breweries brew because they know it will sell well. The split between New England IPAs and other beer styles, like Porter, West Coast IPA, Bock, Lambic, Wheat is getting wider and wider. You can also see which beers are rated the highest on many apps or sites like ratebeer or untappd. I also don't think that the craft beer scene needs to develop too quickly and constantly, there are enough excellent breweries that have been brewing similar beers for 200-300 years and they are still respected. What I personally miss is a bit more variation in style and it's not a problem that people prefer some beer styles, this has always been the case, but it's a shame that in many of the larger webshops, for example, that I like to order from (beerdome, beer republic, beyond beer, beergium, beerloods22, bierothek etc.), NEIPAs often dominate and the ratio is 80/20 to West Cost, Double or Black IPAs as well as many other styles.
I would also like to see fewer new beers, if necessary, but more different styles or new approaches. Yes, admittedly, it's great when there's something that leads people into this scene, but it can also become a vicious circle when everyone wants to ride the wave and mediocrity becomes the norm. I still think NEIPAs are a very interesting and exciting style of beer and I like to drink them so there's no misunderstanding, but just because I do doesn't mean I don't see problems. However, I am positive about the development of smaller and independent breweries. Cheers 🍻🍻
Great analysis as always..love your channel. Such vast knowledge! Here in Norway the hazy IPA are often looked at as a hipster thing (I guess due to the popularity you mention, whilst still being craft), and even if I can understand it, its a shame if enthusiasts become too cool for them..I mean where else does the real magic of hops unravel as much as with a well crafted NEIPA? (have you tasted Salikatt from Stavanger? Seriously great NEIPA and West Coast IPA as well)
Not even hears of Salikatt! Will look them up.
I'll be honest, I think they have a point.
I do like a good IPA here and there, but I feel like it's almost the only thing available in a lot of places touting themselves as having a great selection of beer. Far too often there's 20 different IPAs and barely anything else. Here in Australia, there are a lot of bottle shops where there's a few crappy lagers and two dozen IPAs to choose from. Not everywhere - we have a few decent shops, but with the more standard modern IPAs it's pretty clear that the target audience is people who are used to crappy lagers and are now trying something that isn't that but is, quite frequently, really not a hell of a lot different.
The other thing, and this is a personal perspective that I know a lot of people will disagree with, I miss good balance. Sure, that may be old-fashioned of me, but an important element to beer used to be a good balance between the malt and the hops. Sometimes it's exciting to try something 'out there' but not all the time.
Anyway, I'm probably just a relic of the past.