I loved that in skyrim, The Nords disdain for the Argonians, and me There Lizard hero, thane of all there holds and the most powerful person in the country.
Imo The Argonians did nothing wrong. Slavery will always have terrible consequences and The Dark Elves learned that the hard way. TL:Dr:You reap what you sow.
Also the snow elves tried to kill all the atmoran refugees and failed only in killing ysgramor and his two sons. He then left for atmora and came back with an army to take revenge on the snow elves. It was an eye for an eye situation. Even if it wasn’t completely moral, it is undeniably a justified act.
For Ysgramor, while I do think the pain and anger he felt at the destruction of Sarthaal and the death of his son were genuine, I'm fairly certain his overall motivations were more than mere revenge. Considering his former home Atmora was in the midst of a bloody civil war as well as a gradual deep freeze, it seems more likely that his main motivations were to claim a new home for his people more quickly than merely assimilating peacefully with any locals that were already there. The attack on Sarthaal was the justification he used to convince his countrymen (and likely himself) that such actions were necessary and just. And anyone who's really looked into the Atmorans' conquest of Skyrim will know that this was not as simple as rolling in and killing elven warriors. This was a BRUTAL process. Men, women and children alike were slaughtered and even *enslaved*. The walls that protect Windhelm? Build by Snow Elf slaves. Ultimately, the 500's rampages across Skyrim and Solstheim drove the remaining Snow Elves underground to seek the "protection" of the dwarves. I think we all know how that turned out. There's seeking retribution, and then there's the systematic genocide of an entire race, and the conquest of the region they called home. The Snow Elves' actions during the Night of Tears were brutal and unjustifiable (at least as far was we know), but I don't think their crime was equal to the punishment they ultimately got.
While I do broadly agree with you, the Ayleids enslavement of the Nedic humans was drastically different, as they engaged in ritual blood sacrifices and cannibalism of their slaves. That isn't a justification that the Dunmer SHOULD be engaging in the practice, but simply a statement that putting it on the same level as what the Ayleids did is somewhat inaccurate. Dunmer slavery also wasn't EXCLUSIVELY racially motivated, as they did have slaves of other races, even their own. There are numerous Dunmer slaves in Elder Scrolls 3, and while they're certainly less numerous than the Argonian or Khajiit ones, it is still a practice.
@@Jenn-lq9yu I think the problem here is that slavery as an insitution is inherently immoral no matter how it is spun. And violent revolution has been the historic precident for how slaves have set themselves free throughout history. Both in Tamriel and our own World. If someone's boot is on your neck choking you, you shouldn't be expected to peacefully remove this boot from your neck if the person standing on you has no interest in setting you free.
@@yeetthatmolotov to be sure, that's one hundred percent true that slavery as an institution is always immoral and unjustifiable, my base point was that there are still deeper levels of immorality within that which the Ayleids reached that the Dunmer never did. Thus the original poster's comment comparing the Ayleid enslavement of the Nedic humans to the Dunmer enslavement of the Argonians isn't quite accurate. What the Ayleids did was -far- worse than anything the Dunmer ever did to the Argonians. The Ayleids would ritually sacrifice Nedes, they'd rip out children's hearts and offer them to the Daedra, they would literally turn people into flesh sculptures by flaying their skin and reshaping their bodies. That's a level of depravity well beyond what the Dunmer ever did. Thus saying that Alessia's revolt is the same as the Argonians' isn't quite accurate.
@@Remy-q7b your argument is incoherent and not even remotely based upon what I've actually said. I have at every turn said Slavery is bad period, but the Ayleid version was worse than the Dunmer version. I also don't know if I would actually agree that the Dwemer version was worse than the Ayleid version... yes, devolving the Falmer was pretty messed up but there's still a significant difference between that and ritually sacrificing people and turning them into flesh sculptures. There are in fact degrees of messed up. I think the Ayleids hit the deepest one possible.
Red mountain: *Erupts* Dark elves: This is terrible! What could possibly go any worse than this? Argonians: I'm gonna do what's called a pro-gamer move
Honestly, the Dunmer had it coming. The Argonians were victims, they merely took the opportunity to retaliate, like the Nords and the Falmer, or the Imperials and the Ayleids.
The whole "2 wrongs don't make a right" are too often touted by the oppressors who use it as a shield from retaliation. If we have learned anything from history it's that "No marginalized group has earned their rights by appealing to their oppressors" The dark elves reaped what they sowed, so it's up to them whether they want to restore peace, or continue the anguish of their people.
Absolutely fuckin based. In the immortal words of ContraPoints: "Do you believe you can purchase acceptance through conformity? That is not true freedom, Tiffany; that is merely adding another cell to the prison." Certainly not all Dunmer deserve what happened to them, but the Dunmeri government did. They played with fire and they were burned, they blamed the fire.
From a military strategy and tactical stand point, the Argonians did one of the best things to do. The Argonians attacked the Dunmer when they were at their weakest. Based off my understanding, the Argonians were not entirely exacting revenge, but instead were more interested in the conquest of an enemy's territory (which was probably caused by the Hist's negative influence combined with the highly militaristic government ruling over Black Marsh).
Negative influence? They were protecting physical territory against dragons and new threats. Southern morrowind was likely northern blackmarsh all along.
The Hist did nothing wrong. Seriously, I think that the rise of the An-Xihleel is not part of any hist plan, but a side effect of the drastic measures they took to handle the Oblivion crisis. My guess is that when they discover that the combination of lots of argonian battle monsters and a mountain of daedric arms, created fertile soil for a genocidal conquest political movement, they will intervene to chill their lizzies down. It's just that the Hist live in a slower time scale and their primary feedback is digesting the life experiences of dead and buried argonians. So ... that may take a couple of decades.
nah, the an xileel are a lot like an actual reactionary political faction. they did it because they got tired of being slaves and letting their brothers and sisters be slaves
The altmer aren't evil, they're just very, very salty about the invasion of Summerset by Tiber Septim, and they empathize with the various groups of elves who've been genocided by humans. The Thalmor are ruthless but they're not without justification, and the empire is actually just as ruthless as them. When you read on the Empire's methods...
A couple factors I think worth considering: First, did the Argonians really engage in total, premeditated genocide? From what I can tell, the facts are that the Argonians invaded Morrowind, and a Dunmer described it as a "bloody swathe." I'm certain there were massacres as Argonians vented millennia worth of enslavement onto the Dunmer, but do we have confirmed accounts of them wiping out every last man, woman and child as FudgeMuppet seems to think have happened? Did the Argonians truly commit mass murder of innocent civilians, or did they target slave plantations first and those who owned and worked on them, and were more lenient in territories where slavery was less abundant, such as in Hlaalu or Redoran? Or was the truth more complex, in which some Argonian invaders did their best to limit the damage to the slavers and slaveowners, while others were ruthless and merciless in their thirst for vengeance? Second, while it's true that only a small fraction of the population of Dunmer would own slaves, the attitude of elven supremacy would be much more widespread, if not nigh universal in Morrowind. Even if a Dunmer did not own a slave, they would still consider the Argonians and other slaves beneath them and treat them accordingly, much like non-slaveowning whites in antebellum America would consider blacks to be an inferior race. Relatedly, how widespread was the Twin Lamps organization? It's true that there were likely some members who would have perished during the Argonian invasion, but I imagine the Argonians would be assume that any Dark Elf they came across who claimed they helped slaves escape was lying to save their skin, unless there was a slave around to vouch for them. Two things regarding King Helseth. First, his decree to abolish slavery; how effectively enforced was this in areas where slavery was prominent, such as with Dres and Telvanni? If the Argonians heard about this decree, but then kept seeing their kindred kidnapped and chained and forced into labor, then the conclusion they could come to is that Helseth is a liar or weak, and either way, can't be relied on. Second, I recall that House Hlaalu fell out of power after the Oblivion Crisis, which would make enforcing Helseth's decree all the more difficult, if not impossible. I do agree that this is a more complex situation than "Dunmer enslaved Argonians, so Argonians are justified in invading Morrowind," but I also think that your points granted too much leniency towards the Dunmer, and did not take into account the above mentioned factors regarding the Argonians' point of view.
agreed we need more info what i do know is altmer also keep slave and thalmor had some part in the invasion the twin lamp likely got bigger after the degree and help from both hlaalu and empire in dres land it likely the argonian were getting intel from the abolitionists so why would they kill them too
We don't have a lot to go by due to the scarcity of information. However, the widespread massacre of Dunmer civilians certainly wouldn't be uncharacteristic of the An-Xileel Argonians. We're talking about people who went out of their way to attack Solstheim, populated by half-starved refugees, just to "wreak havoc". On Helseth, I agree. While he banned slavery, there's virtually no mention of him building relations between Morrowind and Black Marsh.
You have to keep in mind, the Argonian attack was led by religious zealots and hordes of Argonians basically mind controlled into a psychotic rage by the Hist; there was no logical thought on where they attacked or who they killed, they simply went on a murdering rampage across southern to central Morrowind. Of course, when the lizards finally met armed Redoran resistance, it became clear that the savages and their stone weapons were only good for murdering defenseless women and children, and could do little against a fully armed and armored Mer determined to stop them in their tracks, and the argonian assault became as waves against a sheer cliff face, breaking upon the solid rock of Redoran's disciplined formations, until they were pushed back into the mud whence they came, and almost all of what Morrowind lost was reclaimed.
When it comes to how I view what the Argonians did to the Dunmer, I'm reminded of Star Trek DS9 and a phrase that Gul Dukat said to Weyoun. "A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness." The Argonians slaughtered the Dunmer to send a message. A message the Dunmer would never forget. And as we have seen in the Elder Scrolls, Elves only learn things the hard way.
Where do people get the idea that the Argonians slaughtered the dunmer en mass?They sacked Mournhold, they viciously attacked house Telvanni and House Dres and then went back to Black Marsh. Infact now Morrowind and the Dunmer are recovering.
@@durshurrikun150 They're still occupying basically everything south of Mournhold, actually. What's left of Vvardenfell and northern mainland Morrowind are recovering, slowly (it's been like 195 years, now), but the Argonians are still there, still killing any dunmer they find in their holdings, in basically a cold war with House Redorran. But this might be a problem of the Fourth Era being 200 years long, so far. All the events are so far spread out, and it feels like the effects are either so slow or just don't exist. It has no sense of time or impact.
@@ElectromagNick Wrong. The Argonians were defeated and driven off southern Morrowind. There are just skirmishes on the border between the two provinces.
I think morality is lost when you take it away, could you imagine being born and as a child forced to do labour showed no love and tortutred for making simple mistakes seeing family die and going numb. The massacre was not right but was going to happen sooner and later and if i were to be honest i wouldve done the same
@@DiousVious that's easy to say having lived a normal life. People never understand how a slave could continue to live like that but forget that's all they've ever known. Those who did resist either had limbs removed were beaten or branded to be watched further. Sometimes they even had whatever family they had killed in front of them or we're killed themselves. Try to say you'll resist when they have the person you love most with a dagger to their throat
chandler gensel I hate dunmer, and each and every day they get dumber. And also, I made sure, idc if the law pursued me, if I saw any slave thingy (slavers, slave auctions) I would kill every dark elf there, and now I know why they are called dark elves: their hearts are too dark.
@Lord Admiral Spire Anyone who’s played Morrowind should understand that slavery was seen as an essential aspect of Dunmer culture. Sure, not all Dunmer could afford slaves, but almost all Dunmer, bar a few like certain members of the Twin Lamps, felt they had a legal right to own slaves regardless of that. This isn’t a minority thing at all.
@Lord Admiral Spire Oh don't worry, it doesn't. However, due to the nature of slavery in Morrowind, you must understand that any consequences the Dunmer faced would have had to be faced as a people, not on an individual basis.
@@caconutnuts if most of the dunmer did not know what it was to own slaves, then they are just saying that. Also having played morrowind, slaves were only really seen in the telvanni district, they were rare in other parts. Most dunmer did not have experience owning slaves and just felt it was their right just because.
@@waluigi3515 1. Your point about much of the Dunmer population not owning slaves, therefore not being culpable in perpetuating slavery, isn’t convincing at all. Every Dunmer, with very few exceptions, at best saw abolition as an Imperial plot, and at worst felt pride in the institution. Saying they were “just saying it” doesn’t mean anything as a defence, because you’re basically denying or at least minimizing what they themselves are admitting to-supporting slavery as a part of their heritage and culture. Your argument makes no sense. 2. The biggest slave plantations on Vvardenfell were in Hlaalu territory. House Dres is said in-lore to depend heavily on slavery. This isn’t a just House Telvanni. Slavery was the norm in and an important part of Dunmer society, and if you don’t think the game made that pretty clear, then you should go over many of the lines of the average Dunmer in-game.
@@caconutnuts your first counterargument dismisses the fact that many dunmer, such as in the redoran district, have in game dialogue when taking about the abolitionists, they state this (something along the lines, it is not the exact statement): "I am not saying I am against the abolitionists, no one I know owns slaves, but it is dunmer law that we can own slaves". This suggests that they don't not fully support slavery as you think they do, because this is ingame dialogue you can have with an average dunmer citizen, as when I played morrowind I remember having dialogue of something along these lines when in Vivec. So you are thinking the dunmer population in general are much more for it then they are. And your second counterargument, I said that slavery was _rare_ in otherparts, not that it wasn't around. Most citizens of hlaalu are in cities, only rich families own farms for the most part. And once again, it is _ingame dialogue_ that it is supposed to be rare in other districts. Tho, I'll admit I was wrong about only telvanni having slaves commonly found, House Dres does depend on slaves the most lorewise so I'll give you thatm
It really boils down to the fact that the Dunmer enslaved Argonians. If they hadn’t made slavery part of their economy then the Argonians would have left them alone, and the Thalmor wouldn’t have exploited the situation.
honestly what made me like the redoran you meet in solstheim was the fact the own up to the fact they kinda deserved this they werent gonna take their genocide laying down but they got why it was happening
There is nothing more dangerous and vicious than a cornered animal. The Dunmer played with fire, again, and Ironically were burned. The blood of the dark elves ran red with the sins of their ancestors. This was bound to happen, I can only imagine an old dark elf, looking at his slave tilling his fields, noticing the physique of the creature, the sharp teeth, the muscular legs tipped with talons, the arms, powerful from long slavework, the skin rough and calloused from ashes and whips. And most terrifying of all, an intelligence behind its eyes. And feeling, a realization, of fear, fear that this creature could kill him at any moment, this being is more than just a beast of burden, a fear and realization that what stands before him is a living, breathing, sentient man, bred to know only hatred and servitude. Realization that this might have all been a mistake. Someone with nothing left to lose is dangerous. Especially if it’s only known pain and a growing hatred for their oppressors who sneer and shout and whip them. Did they deserve it? Who knows. But was it bound to happen? Absolutely. You said “it all seems hateful to me” but that’s just it, hateful. Hate that the Dunmer caused. They were a face to the argonian strife, a face they could put to their pain and suffering, a face to all their lost loved ones. A face to entire lifetimes wasted away as slavery. Entire generations, never to live on to become something great. Any and all hopes and dreams any argonian slave had, crushed by the weight of their shackles. Argonians that could have saved lives, led nations to prosperity, cured diseases, or anything else, good or evil, that other races of nirn are capable of. Knowing the proud Dunmer, they themselves would likely much rather be dead than slaves. Did they deserve it? That’s subjective, many did, many did not. but they had it coming for sure.
it bad what they did but also ironic just as they had hatred for us we have hatred for the aedra worshiping altmer and the argonian have fallen into there plans and with no dunmer army to fight the dominion of the they will ether die free or be slaves again this time forced to abandon there god trees or see them burn and if empire win same apply both aedra worshiper and hate deadra and pagan gods
This sumarise it very well for one dunmer mught have seen more than 3-5 generations of slaves across his life time and some of those slaves to be the children of the first slaves, yeah the possible hatred in them would be immerse for their grand parents have worked to the same being and now he or she. Unfortunatly Dunmer got to be the face of Argonians hatred and symbol of near milenia or strife and pain, when they were weak they got bounced.
Elves may not be immortal in the Elder Scrolls universe, but they do live for centuries. It's entirely possible that many of those wealthy slave owners had been around since the beginning of the slave trade and thus owned multiple generations worth of slaves throughout the ages!
Yah the little children killed in Thier mother's arms by blood crazed lizards pffffft....cowards didn't do anything until after the Dunmer got blown up by a 🌋...then came to scavenge the bones and who suffered the common people pffffft lizards yummy on a Spit
IronGrizzlyBear well to a sertenten point it was justified but then it got heckdit couseing falmer and the fact that the dwemer disappeared what left of them can't be reversed yet
I agree but towards the end of the Nord's campaign they had the Falmer of the run, what i want to know is if the nords hunting down the Falmer and actively chasing them to the ends of skyrim was justified. Had they simply fought the Falmer to a point where the Falmer couldn't fight back, but still sustain a stable population, I think that would have been justifiable.
A war was justified but the Atomoren (Nord ancestors) probably went to far, though it is impossible to tell if actual extinction was intended as the birthrates of the elvish races and human are very different. But what done is done, the snow elves degenerated into blind goblins when betrayed by the Dwarves and the Atmorens won land that would later become Skyrim
It wasn't really justified destroying them comply they could of keeped a town of them it would make the story of the elder scrolls could of been very different
Falmer killed off a nordic settlement in fear of them misussing the eye of magnus(not out of fear of the nords getting children quickly, this is what the winterhold questline brings to the lore). And the nords killed off AN ENTIRE RACE, the rest got changed into monsters by the dwemer... nords definetly went too far.
No one deserves to live in chains. No one deserves to be slaughtered from the crimes of others. By acting the way they did the Dunmer sealed their own fate. By acting the way they did the argonians shackled themselves to new set of masters, the an-xieel. Better to pity both.
@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 slaughtering half a nation is not bad... Yeah sure. The Hist maybe controlling them, but they are willing participants.
@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 revenge or not. It's still that bad. Slavery has been outlawed for centuries, and while I understand the argonian plight, wiping out the entire nation I more than simple revenge. And the Anxileel are as xenophobic as the Thalmor to the rest of Tamriel.
One ethical question: Are the people who see an evil act take place, and do nothing, are they not allowing such an evil to exist? The Thief analogy doesn't really work here considering there are more people present than just you and the thief. People know about the thief, have known about the thief and whom they are targeting but have done nothing to stop them from continuing to steal from you. Even though many of these other people do not steal, is it in right for them to continue and only stand by, watching this thief continue to steal from you over and over again? This also should include the fact that the primary group that wanted to stop the thief from stealing from you had been exiled.
You're just a peasant living a meek life, and praying to the three good Deadra that your crops won't fail to produce. You have a family, a shack, and some rags on your back. You go to town one day and see a Telvani wizard get attacked by an assassin. With the flick of his wrist the wizard turns said assassin into liquid shit. Tell me. Would you have the balls to go after the wizard let alone the entire house with farming tools? There's no Democracy or any peaceful means to do what you're suggesting in the world of the Elder Scrolls. It's a land of might makes right.
What the hell is an ordinary civilian supposed to do against a master wizard of house Telvanni? If he went up to the wizard and said that slavery is wrong what do you expect to happen? The wizard telling him to f*ck off at best and magically blasting the civilian to death at worst. Think before you damn speak
@@marielenapotts848 The problem is that it is not "an ordinary civilian". The entire Dunmer society was sustained by the use of slaves, and that enabled them to avoid field work. Only a few Dunmer worked in the fields. So the reality is that the Dunmers did not complain about slavery because they benefited from it. Not because they didn't have the tools to stop that. It is for this reason that the thief's analogy does not work, since the correct analogy is: "there are thieves, and their relatives and neighbors benefit from what the thief steals. So they prefer to remain silent to continue enjoying what was stolen."
Rage got the best of Argonia, but the Thalmor pulled the strings. Need less to say Argonia left a clear message. It's sovereignty isn't to be challenged.
@@Maxibon2007 I doubt the elves will gain a foothold in Argonia as no Empire ever really managed to conquer them. And the Elves have a track record of underestimating enemies. I think the Thalmor would invade Argonia self assured and be slaughtered whole sale by the Argonians, as well as the WIldlife, Plants and Diseases in the Heart of Argonia. Another point to consider in this is that what Interest would the Thalmor have in a dingy swamp inhabited by in their mind "primitive tree hugging savages"
@@Maxibon2007 Bro, it's been established in ES5 through books that Argonia is now a powerhouse that not even the Thalmor would want to challenge. They would most likely die from the diseases. There's a reason why the Dunmer never got slaves in Black Marsh but only on the borders.
perhaps the genocidal actions of the Argonians was to ensure that the enslaving of their race could never happen again at the hands of the Dunmer. Because when it comes to the enslaving of Argonians, who has done so more often than the dark elves. I think that they'd be justified by that line of thinking. I also think it would have been interesting to know if any dark elves were taken back to Argonia as slaves.
I think the war was more a preventive measure. Given the events presiding the war the oblivion crisis and the eruption of red mountain slavery would likely have been extensively expanded to aid recovery efforts
Yes... yes, he is... that 'flute' is more akin to what we would call a recorder (in earth terms) which could easily be played through cloth covering the mouth. Our modern flute, played by blowing breath over rather than through the wind hole, could not be played in such a fashion or would create an unusual challenge.
Does any nation really *deserve* to be invaded? But the argonians had the power, they had enough justification to rally the troops, and they had the opportunity. End of the day, war never changes.
@@StefanyDjuba this is a 3 year old comment...on a 3 year old video. How did you even find this? Ah well, nobody really deserves to have anything bad happen to them, but the world is a cruel place. The mark of true civilization is to be able to move on and forgive those who have wronged us. However, whether in games or real life, we're a very spiteful and hate filled species. Thus the circle of violence begins again. The old generation of oppressed giving rise to a new generation of oppressors, the old generation of oppressor falling to become a new generation of oppressed, and thus is born the phrase that fallout touts "War never changes".
@@clericofchaos1 I mean, the comments didn't disappear and neither did the video, not sure what's your confusion. I don't really buy into the forgive and forget thing. A good civilization protects its people, and that's what the argonians did. I think it's a little absurd to demand them to be forgiving when the dunmer weren't willing to be forgiving at all.
@@StefanyDjuba I mean, if you read the original comment, i didn't demand anything of them nor did i in anyway condemn their actions. On the contrary, i said "they had enough of a justification to rally the troops". Nor did i ever to say to forgive AND forget. You should be willing to forgive but you should never forget, lest history repeat itself. I was just pointing out that an eye-for-an-eye leaves everybody blind. It's very easy to hate. You can come up with an infinite number of reasons to hate other people, all of which make perfect sense to you. Whether they make sense to the rest of the world isn't your problem. Which is why there are people out there that hate others for stupid reasons like the color of their skin, or for some other nonsense like not being vaccinated. On the other hand, it's very hard to forgive. Which is why Christians are really the only ones capable of it. We're a peculiar people set aside from the world.
@@clericofchaos1 when I talked about demanding and condemning their actions I was talking about the point they made in the video, which I thought your comment was agreeing on
Hope your birthday keeps getting better and will only be topped by each birthday to come. Maybe Ill get a dunmer vid on mine as well.... Aug 24th.... another friday... lol But really, hope your birthday is full of great times and memorable moments.
As a historian you should try not to apply morality to history. Nations aren't good or evil; they're selfish. They do what they think will give them the most benefit.
yeah but genocide still isn't a good way to improve your foreign relations, making yourself only bigger a threath and target. It is selfish to retaliate a long running offense to your people, it is foolish to make enemies bigger than you, putting your people in danger.
"game historian"? it's not as serious as a professional IRL historian but this guy still definitively has much more insight of the game lore and their maps than many, one to refer to when it's about the game's history (hence why "historian")
The pickpocket metaphors actually pretty shity a more accurate one would have been if someone pickpocketed you then you caught him and beat the shit out of them took your money and all his money would you have been Justified
In this case it would've been better "a thief steals a lot of your money, years pass, the thief has children and grandchildren that learn to abhorr their grand's crimes, then family tragedy after family tragedy happens which brings that family in peril only to then have your grandchildren beat up those of the thief's family and steal all their belongings". It's a shame that only the dunmer have means to talk with their ancestors while argonians only bred hatred within their families, a single level headed argonian ancestor could've helped in preventing the genocidal campaign, with only the thick-headed dunmer ancestors still sticking around and causing quarrel in their own houses.
@@cdgonepotatoes4219 honestly I'd say its more, "thief takes everything you have, you and your whole family are called stupid and ignored in society while the thief keeps coming back and taking your stuff, this happens for generations until your descendants beat the shit our of the the descendant of the thieves who also partook in stealing from you"
@@danielshore1457 I feel like I got caught by some unreliable narrators... but I guess that's what makes me like this world: "" You can't make an abridged version of everything in it, or at least you need to make multiple abridged versions each taking the view of conflicting characters who all believe they're right. There's no 'third better option'. "" I was quick to trust every single Dunmer upheld the Ebonheart Pact's "don't enslave lizards" even after all this time and who knows if they even had the power or will to enforce that between houses when they're too busy bickering over other things.
House Dres and House Telvani deserved it. The other Great Houses of Morrowind however most certainly did not deserve it. The fact that Blackmarsh even slaughtered those in House Haluluu, who were almost universally against slavey, is just morally abhorrent. Even regarding Dres and Telvani, not only did only a few of them actually own any slaves, like you said, but many of those who didn't were probably starving from unemployment because of it. Just because they were not suffering nearly as badly from the institution of slavery as the slaves themselves does not mean that they were not still suffering from it.
I'm betting you've owned a pair of Nike shoes in your life, right? Or a smart phone? Or some other luxury item like that. Luxury goods are cheap in the U.S. because people (including children sometimes) in the 3rd world work in near-slavery conditions. Do you think those people in the 3rd world would be morally justified if they decided they wanted to kill you and your entire family? Because I don't. This is the logic you are affirming.
yes, yes they did. as we learned in morrowind even elves that weren't actively engaged in the slave trade supported it and treated those who opposed it horribly only a relatively small number of americans will go to war or launch missiles does that mean that when we vote to slaughter people that we're innocent of the act? not owning slaves doesn't save you if you SUPPORT the trade me not killing you doesn't mean shit if i'm saying that you deserve to die helseth's proposal wasn't entire opposed...but then it did spark him to become considered a figurehead of the empire and once again put him at odds with many of his own people it sparked a bloody civil war that he won...and "effectively" removed the slave trade..but how long will helseth reign? how many detractors simply nod and go along with it while plotting in the dark to have the imperial figurehead removed? a law without the support of the people isn't an effective law, it only holds so long as you have the strength to beat them if they disobey you and there happen to be 2 very..very effective guilds operating in morrowind that for the right price will remove him from power, resulting in a new king..likely not sharing the same imperial mindset, not being leashed
@@iamdream2562 "bigot"? for believing that people that openly condone slavery do deserve the revolt and revolution from the people they enslave? are you saying you'd blame africans for killing americans and/or invading america for a thousands of years of invasion of their territory, killing of their soldiers and removal of their young for such a purpose? does a man that beats his wife day in and day out while holding a gun to their kids head if they dare leave..is he responsible for her actions when/if she kills him or did he have it coming? slave revolts, were they unjustified? many resulted in slave owners and those in LE who hunted them down being killed the majority of morrowind was in support of slavery the entire damn time, including in house Redoran and Hlaalu that banned it for a variety of reasons, from supporting it to abolishing and freeing slaves being immoral on the grounds that slavery is legal in the nation the difference between third world countries and actual slavery is that one is exploitation of negative circumstances (which is extremely immoral) and the other is going out of your way to abuse and deny living things of rights because you fucking can it's the same reason a family and child selling their organs (or marriage) is..wrong to buy but not nearly as wrong as you going to the country, shooting the family, taking the organs/individual and then selling them which one do you think the courts would look worse on? which one do you think would result in anger and the next time someone like you comes into the area them being fucking flayed? if you have to keep a nation from engaging in slavery or genocide by holding a knife to the people's throats, no one is going to feel sympathy when the people you openly kill slit your throat the moment you show any sign of weakness if almost everyone in mexico supported killing men and women of the states and enslaving the children do you honestly think that you would be opposed to killing them the moment something happened to destabilize their military capability? you can't engage in vile actions for thousands of years and expect some sort of pity card when you're put in the seat of being executed for it they were engaged in this shit thousands of years before Alessia was born, thousands of years before they became "dark elves" and were simply Chimer they were given a very..very real chance to end it and they opposed it, in many instances killing abolitionists and when they weren't killed they were often forced to keep those views entirely hidden i'm a fan of the dark elves, but they definitely had it coming they see it as their right to own others, choices have consequences...sometimes those consequences are severe
FM: "What about the other non slave owning Dunmer?" Me: "Weren't they still pro slavery?" FM: "Do they deserve to be slaughtered simply for approving of slavery?" Me: "Yes." FM: "It's just a harmless thought though." Me: "'The beast races are not people and deserve to be attacked and enslaved' is not a 'harmless' belief."
@@etetepete the Argonians waged a retaliatory war against a people who viewed them as worthless animals to be murdered or enslaved and you want to come in here and defend them? "Oh the victims of countless raids, massacres, and occupations that led to their brutal subjugation are fighting back? Aren't you just as bad as the evil supremacist empire for cheering their victims on as they carve their way through them?" No. However, if you think my original comment is evil, just wait until you hear about the Haitian Revolution. It was glorious.
When a nation commits sins against yours, your nation doesn't try to target specific individuals. It's not practical and since the majoirty of the culture is complicit just getting rid of the slave masters would just mean they'd have their positions filled by new people (mer)
Look up president Ngo Dinh Diem during the Vietnam war. He and his brother were targeted individuals for the injustice in south Vietnam. That stuff happens in the real world
Another note: We also should consider that this can also be applied to the Argonians living in Black Marsh. We have to make the assumption that not *all* Argonians were onboard with the whole ‘murder all the Dunmers’ thing. Maybe they were all, “Go after the fuckers responsible for our suffering, but leave the innocents out of this!” Maybe some others were all, “Good, good. We’re finally free from the filthy Greybacks. Let’s do our thing and pretend they don’t exist.” Granted, I’m not sure how the Hist works, but to say that all of Argonia wanted this is kind of a fallacy. The powers that be might have wanted it and the average Jun Sleem-ka was too poor/lacking in political powers to do anything about it.
I have a head cannon theory for this. The argonian invasion was part of a secrete punishment by the original tribunal, for the dark elves betrayal. Azurah might have cursed them with red eyes and great skin, but for centuries thay continued to fallow Vivec Amalexia and Sunel Seal (yah I butchered those). So Even after the false tribunal failed Boethiah Malphala and Azurah where not quite willing to take back there flock unpunished. Azurah's punishment was standing by and saying nothing before the oblivion crisis. Boethiah saw to it that red mountain erupted. Melphala sowed the seeds of resentment among the argonians, and watched as they murdered many dark elves. Remember when you make deals with deadra keep them. They are fickel and hate nothing more then those who go back on there deals.
Yes and no. Did individual families really deserve it? Absolutely not. But if your people enslave, browbeat and abuse another for centuries, you're going to risk something like this happening.
I like how a slave rebellion against a race of slavers gets framed as genocide but he just goin to act Like Ysgramor didnt ACTUALLY genocide not just fight a territorial war. DUDE owning a slave isnt the only evil - its supporting the system of slavery or not fighting against it.
*St. Alessia* slaughters the Aleiyds and is seen a hero. *Ysgramor* committed genocide against the Snow Elves and is heralded as a legend. But Argonians fighting their slavers so they won't become slaves again is somehow seen as morally bad? Really Michael...
That's the problem right there. Argonians don't have the "one person" to represent their cause. With Alessia and Ysgramor, people can sympathize with them more personally as there are names of sons and loved ones involved.
@@shaokhanwins1037 Which honestly should be even more a reason to see Argonians in the right here. You can attach a hero to a name as much as a villain. Only difference is there’s no Snow Elves or Ayleids around to give there side of the story.
Yes they did deserve it, this is coming from a guy who always plays as a dark elf for their magic and weapons expertise. I love the argonians and the culture they have some of the best.
@@michaela2634 Dumner "morality" as a concept is one big grey area at best. So it's entirely possible that slavery was not viewed as right or wrong, but instead just a fact of life. That's how it was for thousands of years human history at any rate. Plot twist: Humans were the most evil race all along
@@michaela2634 A lot of those "innocent" Dunmer were still complicit as bystandards to Argonian oppression. Not all of them deserved to die, but they are reasonable casualties.
From a military objective the actions they took makes sense regardless if all Dark Elves deserved it. By destroying infrastructure and showing strength in force they made it very unlikely that the Dark Elves would be in a position to enslave the Argonian race in a future time. If you have freedom then you need to make sure that you are in a position to keep it.
they deserved it.... the owners are guilty, the trappers deserved it, the dark elves who enforced the slavery are guilty so it's a whole lot more than just the rich slave owners... and it can't really be equated to having your wallet stolen or just be called people that hurt you... or a culture to blame. The dark elves as a culture invaded and kidnapped one would assume generations of argonians and forced them into slavery. Probably a whole lot more than "the numbers of NPCs slaves" since that has technical limits not story limits... and even more considering how long elves live in general. as for some innocent bystanders, sure that happens in violent liberation and that is a guilty charge but can they risk being too discriminate in their freedom and continued freedom against an enemy that is as strong in might and magic as the dark elves? nah. as for the devastation from red mountain... that's got nothing to do with the Argonians. dark elves had it coming.
Exactly, dunmer fanboys act as if they're the good guys, which they most certainly aren't. They're xenophobic assholes with a collective superiority complex.
Ignoring the racist comment, wow you are both sociopaths. The innocent should not be punished for the crimes of their countrymen. You can't go around killing random people because someone that shares their skin color did something bad. Please none of you ever get into any kind of public service
@@grillmadeofrecycledgrenade3197 The same could be said about how the Dunmer captured and treated them as slaves. The fact the Tribunal allowed it says a lot about the culture.
@@IveBeenWithBruma the same cannot be said. "You killed my mother, I killed you" is vengeance. Still wrong but reasonable. "You killed my mother so I killed yours, who may or may not approve or even know of your actions" is the logic of a truly sick mind.
Brother, this isn't "somone pickpocked you so you killed their family", it's "somone kidnapped your wife, raped her continuously, for years, and forced her to do any household jobs there were while keeping her chained up in the basement at night. And the family didn't participate but they didn't complain about any of this and were complicit in the whole affair... so you killed the entire family and rescued her" That sounds a lot more reasonable now
Dunmers never really get a break, do they? Cursed by a daedric prince, ruled by power crazed tribunal, got a meteor sized structure literally fell on one of their major city, got one of the biggest (if not the biggest) volcano on tamriel blow up on them and buried them under ash for hundreds of years, got invaded by the argonians, ran to skyrim just be discriminated against. Harsh... Well, at least the're not being betrayed and turned into a creepy cave dwellers like what happened to the falmers. That one was just bad...
DragonHeart 12 All the races are dicks to eachother. Hammerfell doesn't trust anyone outside the borders. Skyrim despises beast races and Elves. High Rock is snobby and sees their neighbouring Orcs as vermin. Orcs don't trust anyone that aren't from their strongholds. Black Marsh ambushes and kills any outsiders. Morrowind generally dislikes what they call "outlanders" Valenwood is a reasonably racial-friendly place, but their odd/taboo lifestyle doesn't attract alot of outsiders. Summerset has a superiority complex and believes every race is beneath them. Cyrodiil is definitely the most racially equal out of all of them.
Before they were Dunmer, they were the Chimer, a race responsible for things more repugnant than even widespread slavery and enough arrogance to make today's Thalmor jealous. They needed their asses whipped into shape, but probably not as hard as they got it.
I am sure some Argonians spoke against it and got belittled, silenced, shunned or even killed. Just as I am sure some Dunmer were disgusted by slavery. I would like to see a mini-quest about a Dunmer and an Argonian who are friends but turn enemy over a misunderstanding and the Player character can help resolve the truth or choose sides or even go against both.
Vivec : I'm so merciful ima hold this meteor above my city so everyone can see how powerful and merciful I am. :) Vivec after losing his divinity: I didn't think that through. You know, I think I might have wrote about hubris in one of my lessons.. Hmm, the god whom protects all, is sure to destroy all.. ah, needs refinement. Oh cra-
It's no bcoz his compassion it's to boost his ego .Vivec literally told the dunmer if they're refuse to worship him he would drop on them.Also , prayers and reverence increase the power of gods. Without , prayers gods become weaker and lose their influence.Thats why Vivec hold the meteor above instead tossing it somewhere or destroy it. It's exacty the same reason thalmor try to with by banning worship of Talos.
What's really goofy about that is that apparently he held it there without reducing its momentum. It wouldn't have done that much damage by simply plopping down from a few hundred feet
I like dunmer. They are simple amazing. With Dagoth ur returning, the tribunal dead, the oblivion crisis, the eruption of the red mountain and the destruction of vivec city they still didn't give up. Of all the races in tamriel I think these guys are the best because even when they were at their lowest and the argonians attacked they held back with the meagre forces they had and even managed to reclaim some parts of the land they lost to the argonians. And if that isn't awesome then I don't know what is. Their conduct of slavery isn't justified but neither is slaughtering the millions of innocents because of the wrongs done by the few hundred elites. Overall after all this I think the dunmer will recover from all this and maybe we will see morrowind brought back to normal again in TES 6.
i think the attack on the dunmer was justified, i dont think id ever say it was righteous. the dunmer did have comeuppance coming. their cultural values literally tell them that owning and subjugation of another is their right as a dunmer. this is the ultimate version of "actions have consequences", a cultural that pervades ownership of another being, getting smashed into heel. bardow, red mountain and the argonian invasion is the justice against the dunmers own hubris within themselves and throughout their culture. unfortunately many innocent dunmer would die but again i think it lessens the impact that much of the dead were from dres lands whose peoples regularly profit or for the layman benefit their current lifestyles. will be excited to hear about what happens with this in elder scrolls 6, you know, as long as bethesda doesnt just shit on their own lore
Something that I have always wondered. When a group of people collectively agree that a heinous practice is okay because the group largely benefits from it, and then set a few of its members to do said act, are the acting members then the only guilty ones? For this case, those slaves created wealth and managed some of the worst jobs that none the less _had_ to be done, so the Morrorwind population as a whole benefited from having slaves, and since there isn't a lot of public outcry against it, then the Dumners must be okay with it continuing.
Cultural practices don’t occur in a vacuum though. Dark elf society is one of slavery - and such economies encompass far more than just the ownership of chattel slaves. You can’t blame the lizards for being pissed off after hundreds of years of dispossession and attempted genocide - although I agree with you that counter-genocide is not exactly the greatest strategy either.
The sun will shine once more on the Dunmer, banishing the darkness from Vvardenfell and all of Morrowind until naught but ashfields and glory remain in it's wake.
"It's time for a prayer, it's time for a prayer. For our lord Dres can't wake up, and his food has gone stale. His whip won't be cracking, all netch ran away... Marsh Brothers, Marsh Sisters, it is a good day!" But seriously, I see you're a true saxhleel shelik as well. And that song is absolute poison, my friend.
As a question of morality, ponder this: the Dunmer won't always be on the back foot as they are now. There will come a time, maybe in a few more decades or maybe a few more centuries from the current time, where they will be in a better position to strike out at other people again. By delivering such a vicious, no-holds barred massacre on the Dunmer when they were at their weakest, the Argonians sent a message, which is that the blood, sweat and tears which had provided prosperity to Morrowind for generations would be repaid, with interest. With that in mind, when the Dunmer are less weak in the future, and some noble gets nostalgic for the glory days and starts suggesting firing up slaving raids again, the unspeakable price inflicted on them by the Argonians should give the Dunmer leadership pause. And that pause could well be enough to save future generations of Argonians from suffering under the lash. Does that justify the slaughter? Maybe not, but if I were an Argonian, I would be strongly considering it...
The Dark Elves got what was coming to them whether ppl want to admit it or not. The “innocent” non slavers sure as hell didn’t go out of there way to stamp the practice out so I’m not sure what the Argonians owed them...
I agree with this, it would have been just for the argonians to crush House Dres and even House Telvanni but the killing of innocent Dunmer who are basically peasants is just genocide
Funny thing every time something threatens Morrowind it's usually the redoran and or the telvanni that slap it down so yah lizards wanna assault the mage Lord's in Thier towers hahaha best of luck.....
I know this is 5 years old, but I can't disagree more. Enslaving 1 person is wrong. Enslaving a people is a completely justified for declaration of war. The rest of Dunmer should have went to war with House Dres and House Telvanni by never doing anything they are all culpable and the Argonian are justified.
Still gotta give the "right side of history" to the Argonians. Even with the fact that not many dunmer would have taken part in slave raids and even fewer would have owned slaves, The remaining dunmer are still apathetically supporting a culture built on, at least in part, Slavery and a racial superiority complex. Dunmer culter has been around for a couple thousand recorded years now, Thats plenty of time for there to be at the very least an established counter culture movement to change the destructive aspects of Dunmer society, But no... Also That whole elven racial supremecy schtick needs to be cut down once or twice an Era before you start getting zealots wanting to undo the fabric of exhistance and revert the mer races into being immortal spirits again or something like that
As someone with more than 5 argonian characters in skyrim and a dunmer that i droped as soon as i found out they used argonians as slaves, the elves deserved it, both high and dark elves should be wiped out, leave the bosmer, as they don't bother anyone, and the orcs, as they also had a rough time.
Drew loves Dunmer. This was always going to be biased from the beginning of the video. Argonians just as bad? How many Argonian Families were ripped apart because Dunmer didn’t want to cultivate their own slat rice? How many Argonians died slaving for centuries? The Argonians aren’t saints but the Dunmer make them look as much.
Me, having watched the video now, also an Argonian player, a history and economics enthusiast, and Paradox grand strategy gamer: morality is in the realm of the individual thinker. On the national scale, morality doesn't really matter except to mobilize the population. Economics has the decision making concept of game theory, where if you can identify the nature of the game being played, you know what actions give you the most benefit. The types of games are positive sum where all parties can potentially gain, negative sum where all parties stand to lose but maybe not as much as everyone else, and zero sum where no matter what action is taken nothing is added to or removed from the game. In a pre-industrial world like the Elder Scrolls, productive land is finite. No matter what you do, without advances in technology you can't make land you already have more productive, each acre of land has its own value and that value is set. Black Marsh and Morrowind occupy X square miles of Tamriel, no land can be added or removed. This means the game being played between Black Marsh and Morrowind is a zero-sum game, no matter where the borders are between the two polities, the amount of land they occupy stays the same, they each only control varying percentages of it. Thus, if Black Marsh and Morrowind are hostile to each other, when one player is weak, it's in the interest of the other player to exploit their weakness. Morrowind has been playing it through small land grabs and perpetual slave raids for centuries because Black Marsh was the weaker player, if there are no consequences for exploiting them then they must be exploited. Suddenly Black Marsh sees that Morrowind is significantly weaker than they are, so the only move that benefits them at that time is to invade Morrowind to grab the land Morrowind is unable to secure. Stepping out of economics, while extremely fucked up, it is in a nation's interest to either purge or assimilate the native population of conquered lands and occupy the land with loyal supporters to minimize rebellions and uprisings, which is why humanity continues to do that fucked up shit to itself even to this day. When governments are the players involved, the morality of its individual citizens fade into the background. If they benefit from cooperating they will cooperate, if they benefit from ruthlessly exploiting the other they will do so. The reasoning and justifications for land expansions are but details. The end goal is always the same: increase economic output, or at the very least increase the wealth of the ruling coalition.
As someone, who's part of a nation that has endured 500 years of slavery, I would say that the Argonians were extreme in their invasion. However, it is also wise to remember that none of that would of happened if the Dunmer didn't enslave them. Yes, the invasion was brutal, but the Dunmer brought it upon themselves. In other words "If you play with fire, be prepared to get burned."
I love Dark elves, and I'm sad what happened to them. But you say that Argonians should kill just the slave masters..... that not how people (argonians) can get their revenge, thats not how they think. I know how you mean it and i dont agree with you.... histrori is full of exapmles like this. When blood eager mob has the opportunity to kill and get their revenge mob simlpy do what mob wants to. They dont care if only 5% of the richone are the reason of their suferring. Your way simply can't work in "normal" world or in fantasy world :D and btw i love your videos (about Dark elves the most) :) GOOD work buddy. (y)
They have an Argonian Slave build. The backstory doesn't involve the An-Xileel, but the gear and skill investment is what I would think of for such a character. All you'd really need to do is change up the backstory.
*argonian kills Telvanni master*
Telvanni rules: “well maybe you shouldn’t have been weak”
The best rules.
@@BigOrangeLizard Hey Nelototh, make me Hortator
@@cazikman NO, make me Hortator!
@@BigOrangeLizard Make me a tea
**Argonian Kills master with magic**
Telvanni: I see you have some talent, would you be interested in a *recently* available Shroom tower?
The best revenge is to be an Argonian AND being the Nerevarine, chosen Champion of Azura.
. Fun times. My first character in Morrowind was an argonian n
Thanks for validating my current Morrowind playthrough lol
Scaled N’wahs
LOL, I absolutely love the way you think. I had never thought about it like that before, but that’s genuinely amazing hahahaha 😂😂😂🤣🤣
I loved that in skyrim, The Nords disdain for the Argonians, and me There Lizard hero, thane of all there holds and the most powerful person in the country.
Ysgramor kill almost all the snow elves and he's a hero, the argonians kill a few dark elves and suddenly it's genocide..
Imo The Argonians did nothing wrong. Slavery will always have terrible consequences and The Dark Elves learned that the hard way.
TL:Dr:You reap what you sow.
Also the snow elves tried to kill all the atmoran refugees and failed only in killing ysgramor and his two sons. He then left for atmora and came back with an army to take revenge on the snow elves. It was an eye for an eye situation. Even if it wasn’t completely moral, it is undeniably a justified act.
For Ysgramor, while I do think the pain and anger he felt at the destruction of Sarthaal and the death of his son were genuine, I'm fairly certain his overall motivations were more than mere revenge.
Considering his former home Atmora was in the midst of a bloody civil war as well as a gradual deep freeze, it seems more likely that his main motivations were to claim a new home for his people more quickly than merely assimilating peacefully with any locals that were already there. The attack on Sarthaal was the justification he used to convince his countrymen (and likely himself) that such actions were necessary and just.
And anyone who's really looked into the Atmorans' conquest of Skyrim will know that this was not as simple as rolling in and killing elven warriors. This was a BRUTAL process. Men, women and children alike were slaughtered and even *enslaved*. The walls that protect Windhelm? Build by Snow Elf slaves.
Ultimately, the 500's rampages across Skyrim and Solstheim drove the remaining Snow Elves underground to seek the "protection" of the dwarves. I think we all know how that turned out.
There's seeking retribution, and then there's the systematic genocide of an entire race, and the conquest of the region they called home.
The Snow Elves' actions during the Night of Tears were brutal and unjustifiable (at least as far was we know), but I don't think their crime was equal to the punishment they ultimately got.
different races have different perspectives. Also a lot more than a few and Ysgramor is known as a hero by Men while a genocidal maniac by Mer.
@@jackagonis9302 Dude Ysgramor committed mass Genocide for the sacking of one city. 7 generations later his decendants are STILL racist against Elves.
So Alessia's rebellion against the Aliads is justified, but the Argonian's invasion is unjustified. How does that work?
While I do broadly agree with you, the Ayleids enslavement of the Nedic humans was drastically different, as they engaged in ritual blood sacrifices and cannibalism of their slaves. That isn't a justification that the Dunmer SHOULD be engaging in the practice, but simply a statement that putting it on the same level as what the Ayleids did is somewhat inaccurate. Dunmer slavery also wasn't EXCLUSIVELY racially motivated, as they did have slaves of other races, even their own. There are numerous Dunmer slaves in Elder Scrolls 3, and while they're certainly less numerous than the Argonian or Khajiit ones, it is still a practice.
@@Jenn-lq9yu I think the problem here is that slavery as an insitution is inherently immoral no matter how it is spun. And violent revolution has been the historic precident for how slaves have set themselves free throughout history. Both in Tamriel and our own World. If someone's boot is on your neck choking you, you shouldn't be expected to peacefully remove this boot from your neck if the person standing on you has no interest in setting you free.
@@yeetthatmolotov to be sure, that's one hundred percent true that slavery as an institution is always immoral and unjustifiable, my base point was that there are still deeper levels of immorality within that which the Ayleids reached that the Dunmer never did. Thus the original poster's comment comparing the Ayleid enslavement of the Nedic humans to the Dunmer enslavement of the Argonians isn't quite accurate. What the Ayleids did was -far- worse than anything the Dunmer ever did to the Argonians.
The Ayleids would ritually sacrifice Nedes, they'd rip out children's hearts and offer them to the Daedra, they would literally turn people into flesh sculptures by flaying their skin and reshaping their bodies. That's a level of depravity well beyond what the Dunmer ever did. Thus saying that Alessia's revolt is the same as the Argonians' isn't quite accurate.
Seriously, nearly all Dumner were at least complacent in the enslavement of argonians and benefited from the labor they provided. Fuck em.
@@Remy-q7b your argument is incoherent and not even remotely based upon what I've actually said. I have at every turn said Slavery is bad period, but the Ayleid version was worse than the Dunmer version. I also don't know if I would actually agree that the Dwemer version was worse than the Ayleid version... yes, devolving the Falmer was pretty messed up but there's still a significant difference between that and ritually sacrificing people and turning them into flesh sculptures.
There are in fact degrees of messed up. I think the Ayleids hit the deepest one possible.
Red mountain: *Erupts*
Dark elves: This is terrible! What could possibly go any worse than this?
Argonians: I'm gonna do what's called a pro-gamer move
Optimal play by the lizard folk
It's not about revenge. It's about.. sending a message.
The prideful fall.
"Hippity hoppity, lizards are property." -House Telvanni and Dres
👏
House Telvanni is debatable.
Stolen joke.
Hippity hoppity both telvani and dres are bitches
Hippity hoppity red mountain went poppity
Honestly, the Dunmer had it coming. The Argonians were victims, they merely took the opportunity to retaliate, like the Nords and the Falmer, or the Imperials and the Ayleids.
Honestly listening to the lore it's like most of the dunmers problems are caused by themselves
The whole "2 wrongs don't make a right" are too often touted by the oppressors who use it as a shield from retaliation. If we have learned anything from history it's that "No marginalized group has earned their rights by appealing to their oppressors"
The dark elves reaped what they sowed, so it's up to them whether they want to restore peace, or continue the anguish of their people.
Absolutely fuckin based.
In the immortal words of ContraPoints:
"Do you believe you can purchase acceptance through conformity? That is not true freedom, Tiffany; that is merely adding another cell to the prison."
Certainly not all Dunmer deserve what happened to them, but the Dunmeri government did.
They played with fire and they were burned, they blamed the fire.
From a military strategy and tactical stand point, the Argonians did one of the best things to do. The Argonians attacked the Dunmer when they were at their weakest. Based off my understanding, the Argonians were not entirely exacting revenge, but instead were more interested in the conquest of an enemy's territory (which was probably caused by the Hist's negative influence combined with the highly militaristic government ruling over Black Marsh).
Negative influence? They were protecting physical territory against dragons and new threats. Southern morrowind was likely northern blackmarsh all along.
The Hist did nothing wrong.
Seriously, I think that the rise of the An-Xihleel is not part of any hist plan, but a side effect of the drastic measures they took to handle the Oblivion crisis. My guess is that when they discover that the combination of lots of argonian battle monsters and a mountain of daedric arms, created fertile soil for a genocidal conquest political movement, they will intervene to chill their lizzies down. It's just that the Hist live in a slower time scale and their primary feedback is digesting the life experiences of dead and buried argonians. So ... that may take a couple of decades.
nah, the an xileel are a lot like an actual reactionary political faction. they did it because they got tired of being slaves and letting their brothers and sisters be slaves
nah, the an xileel are a lot like an actual reactionary political faction. they did it because they got tired of being slaves lol
I dont have anything against the dark elves
The high elves however...
Geralt of Rivia fUck those guys
Zurin Arctus i dont care thei are fucking evil
Zurin Arctus Exactly.
Zurin Arctus no
I said i dont care who the thalmor are and that tey are evil
The altmer aren't evil, they're just very, very salty about the invasion of Summerset by Tiber Septim, and they empathize with the various groups of elves who've been genocided by humans. The Thalmor are ruthless but they're not without justification, and the empire is actually just as ruthless as them. When you read on the Empire's methods...
00:12 I shat my pants
Understandable have a nice day
Only 1 reply?
Camels don't wear pants?
I shat your pants too
A couple factors I think worth considering:
First, did the Argonians really engage in total, premeditated genocide? From what I can tell, the facts are that the Argonians invaded Morrowind, and a Dunmer described it as a "bloody swathe." I'm certain there were massacres as Argonians vented millennia worth of enslavement onto the Dunmer, but do we have confirmed accounts of them wiping out every last man, woman and child as FudgeMuppet seems to think have happened? Did the Argonians truly commit mass murder of innocent civilians, or did they target slave plantations first and those who owned and worked on them, and were more lenient in territories where slavery was less abundant, such as in Hlaalu or Redoran? Or was the truth more complex, in which some Argonian invaders did their best to limit the damage to the slavers and slaveowners, while others were ruthless and merciless in their thirst for vengeance?
Second, while it's true that only a small fraction of the population of Dunmer would own slaves, the attitude of elven supremacy would be much more widespread, if not nigh universal in Morrowind. Even if a Dunmer did not own a slave, they would still consider the Argonians and other slaves beneath them and treat them accordingly, much like non-slaveowning whites in antebellum America would consider blacks to be an inferior race.
Relatedly, how widespread was the Twin Lamps organization? It's true that there were likely some members who would have perished during the Argonian invasion, but I imagine the Argonians would be assume that any Dark Elf they came across who claimed they helped slaves escape was lying to save their skin, unless there was a slave around to vouch for them.
Two things regarding King Helseth.
First, his decree to abolish slavery; how effectively enforced was this in areas where slavery was prominent, such as with Dres and Telvanni? If the Argonians heard about this decree, but then kept seeing their kindred kidnapped and chained and forced into labor, then the conclusion they could come to is that Helseth is a liar or weak, and either way, can't be relied on.
Second, I recall that House Hlaalu fell out of power after the Oblivion Crisis, which would make enforcing Helseth's decree all the more difficult, if not impossible.
I do agree that this is a more complex situation than "Dunmer enslaved Argonians, so Argonians are justified in invading Morrowind," but I also think that your points granted too much leniency towards the Dunmer, and did not take into account the above mentioned factors regarding the Argonians' point of view.
agreed we need more info what i do know is altmer also keep slave and thalmor had some part in the invasion the twin lamp likely got bigger after the degree and help from both hlaalu and empire in dres land it likely the argonian were getting intel from the abolitionists so why would they kill them too
We don't have a lot to go by due to the scarcity of information. However, the widespread massacre of Dunmer civilians certainly wouldn't be uncharacteristic of the An-Xileel Argonians. We're talking about people who went out of their way to attack Solstheim, populated by half-starved refugees, just to "wreak havoc".
On Helseth, I agree. While he banned slavery, there's virtually no mention of him building relations between Morrowind and Black Marsh.
You have to keep in mind, the Argonian attack was led by religious zealots and hordes of Argonians basically mind controlled into a psychotic rage by the Hist; there was no logical thought on where they attacked or who they killed, they simply went on a murdering rampage across southern to central Morrowind.
Of course, when the lizards finally met armed Redoran resistance, it became clear that the savages and their stone weapons were only good for murdering defenseless women and children, and could do little against a fully armed and armored Mer determined to stop them in their tracks, and the argonian assault became as waves against a sheer cliff face, breaking upon the solid rock of Redoran's disciplined formations, until they were pushed back into the mud whence they came, and almost all of what Morrowind lost was reclaimed.
@@viysnjor4811 Spoken like a truly based Dunmer.
I agree with u
When it comes to how I view what the Argonians did to the Dunmer, I'm reminded of Star Trek DS9 and a phrase that Gul Dukat said to Weyoun.
"A true victory is to make your enemy see they were wrong to oppose you in the first place. To force them to acknowledge your greatness."
The Argonians slaughtered the Dunmer to send a message. A message the Dunmer would never forget. And as we have seen in the Elder Scrolls, Elves only learn things the hard way.
it was to hard as it left both morrowind black marsh skyrim unable to reform the pact to protect it self from real threats like the dominion
You have the Dunmer to blame for that, not the Argonians. Damn Elves.
Where do people get the idea that the Argonians slaughtered the dunmer en mass?They sacked Mournhold, they viciously attacked house Telvanni and House Dres and then went back to Black Marsh.
Infact now Morrowind and the Dunmer are recovering.
@@durshurrikun150 They're still occupying basically everything south of Mournhold, actually. What's left of Vvardenfell and northern mainland Morrowind are recovering, slowly (it's been like 195 years, now), but the Argonians are still there, still killing any dunmer they find in their holdings, in basically a cold war with House Redorran.
But this might be a problem of the Fourth Era being 200 years long, so far. All the events are so far spread out, and it feels like the effects are either so slow or just don't exist. It has no sense of time or impact.
@@ElectromagNick Wrong.
The Argonians were defeated and driven off southern Morrowind.
There are just skirmishes on the border between the two provinces.
I think morality is lost when you take it away, could you imagine being born and as a child forced to do labour showed no love and tortutred for making simple mistakes seeing family die and going numb. The massacre was not right but was going to happen sooner and later and if i were to be honest i wouldve done the same
ghostprick i would’ve killed the first person who thought of touching me
@@DiousVious that's easy to say having lived a normal life. People never understand how a slave could continue to live like that but forget that's all they've ever known. Those who did resist either had limbs removed were beaten or branded to be watched further. Sometimes they even had whatever family they had killed in front of them or we're killed themselves. Try to say you'll resist when they have the person you love most with a dagger to their throat
chandler gensel I hate dunmer, and each and every day they get dumber. And also, I made sure, idc if the law pursued me, if I saw any slave thingy (slavers, slave auctions) I would kill every dark elf there, and now I know why they are called dark elves: their hearts are too dark.
chandler gensel also have you heard of Ja-Reet
@@DiousVious Actually they are called that because their skin was turned gray from a curse.
Its not like the dunmer made any differantiation between good and bad lizards
@Lord Admiral Spire Anyone who’s played Morrowind should understand that slavery was seen as an essential aspect of Dunmer culture. Sure, not all Dunmer could afford slaves, but almost all Dunmer, bar a few like certain members of the Twin Lamps, felt they had a legal right to own slaves regardless of that. This isn’t a minority thing at all.
@Lord Admiral Spire Oh don't worry, it doesn't. However, due to the nature of slavery in Morrowind, you must understand that any consequences the Dunmer faced would have had to be faced as a people, not on an individual basis.
@@caconutnuts if most of the dunmer did not know what it was to own slaves, then they are just saying that. Also having played morrowind, slaves were only really seen in the telvanni district, they were rare in other parts. Most dunmer did not have experience owning slaves and just felt it was their right just because.
@@waluigi3515
1. Your point about much of the Dunmer population not owning slaves, therefore not being culpable in perpetuating slavery, isn’t convincing at all. Every Dunmer, with very few exceptions, at best saw abolition as an Imperial plot, and at worst felt pride in the institution. Saying they were “just saying it” doesn’t mean anything as a defence, because you’re basically denying or at least minimizing what they themselves are admitting to-supporting slavery as a part of their heritage and culture. Your argument makes no sense.
2. The biggest slave plantations on Vvardenfell were in Hlaalu territory. House Dres is said in-lore to depend heavily on slavery. This isn’t a just House Telvanni. Slavery was the norm in and an important part of Dunmer society, and if you don’t think the game made that pretty clear, then you should go over many of the lines of the average Dunmer in-game.
@@caconutnuts your first counterargument dismisses the fact that many dunmer, such as in the redoran district, have in game dialogue when taking about the abolitionists, they state this (something along the lines, it is not the exact statement): "I am not saying I am against the abolitionists, no one I know owns slaves, but it is dunmer law that we can own slaves". This suggests that they don't not fully support slavery as you think they do, because this is ingame dialogue you can have with an average dunmer citizen, as when I played morrowind I remember having dialogue of something along these lines when in Vivec. So you are thinking the dunmer population in general are much more for it then they are. And your second counterargument, I said that slavery was _rare_ in otherparts, not that it wasn't around. Most citizens of hlaalu are in cities, only rich families own farms for the most part. And once again, it is _ingame dialogue_ that it is supposed to be rare in other districts. Tho, I'll admit I was wrong about only telvanni having slaves commonly found, House Dres does depend on slaves the most lorewise so I'll give you thatm
It really boils down to the fact that the Dunmer enslaved Argonians. If they hadn’t made slavery part of their economy then the Argonians would have left them alone, and the Thalmor wouldn’t have exploited the situation.
honestly what made me like the redoran you meet in solstheim was the fact the own up to the fact they kinda deserved this they werent gonna take their genocide laying down but they got why it was happening
There is nothing more dangerous and vicious than a cornered animal.
The Dunmer played with fire, again, and Ironically were burned.
The blood of the dark elves ran red with the sins of their ancestors.
This was bound to happen, I can only imagine an old dark elf, looking at his slave tilling his fields, noticing the physique of the creature, the sharp teeth, the muscular legs tipped with talons, the arms, powerful from long slavework, the skin rough and calloused from ashes and whips.
And most terrifying of all, an intelligence behind its eyes.
And feeling, a realization, of fear, fear that this creature could kill him at any moment, this being is more than just a beast of burden, a fear and realization that what stands before him is a living, breathing, sentient man, bred to know only hatred and servitude.
Realization that this might have all been a mistake.
Someone with nothing left to lose is dangerous. Especially if it’s only known pain and a growing hatred for their oppressors who sneer and shout and whip them.
Did they deserve it? Who knows. But was it bound to happen? Absolutely.
You said “it all seems hateful to me” but that’s just it, hateful.
Hate that the Dunmer caused. They were a face to the argonian strife, a face they could put to their pain and suffering, a face to all their lost loved ones. A face to entire lifetimes wasted away as slavery.
Entire generations, never to live on to become something great. Any and all hopes and dreams any argonian slave had, crushed by the weight of their shackles. Argonians that could have saved lives, led nations to prosperity, cured diseases, or anything else, good or evil, that other races of nirn are capable of.
Knowing the proud Dunmer, they themselves would likely much rather be dead than slaves.
Did they deserve it? That’s subjective, many did, many did not.
but they had it coming for sure.
it bad what they did but also ironic just as they had hatred for us we have hatred for the aedra worshiping altmer and the argonian have fallen into there plans and with no dunmer army to fight the dominion of the they will ether die free or be slaves again this time forced to abandon there god trees or see them burn and if empire win same apply both aedra worshiper and hate deadra and pagan gods
Acherontic Arts Could not have said that better.
This sumarise it very well for one dunmer mught have seen more than 3-5 generations of slaves across his life time and some of those slaves to be the children of the first slaves, yeah the possible hatred in them would be immerse for their grand parents have worked to the same being and now he or she. Unfortunatly Dunmer got to be the face of Argonians hatred and symbol of near milenia or strife and pain, when they were weak they got bounced.
Elves may not be immortal in the Elder Scrolls universe, but they do live for centuries. It's entirely possible that many of those wealthy slave owners had been around since the beginning of the slave trade and thus owned multiple generations worth of slaves throughout the ages!
Yah the little children killed in Thier mother's arms by blood crazed lizards pffffft....cowards didn't do anything until after the Dunmer got blown up by a 🌋...then came to scavenge the bones and who suffered the common people pffffft lizards yummy on a Spit
Can't we all be like Brand-Shei?
Squats Forever You mean rotting in the Riften jail for a crime you didn’t commit? Sure sounds great 👌🏻
@@elliesophiaxx it would be better then actually going outside
mate, have you even seen that video where brand-shei full on executes a guy combat-x style over an axe?
@@razzlebackdraft8201 I had a playthrough where he took out a woman over a book.
@@elliesophiaxx ? When did he go to jail ???
An interesting topic for discussion: Was the Nordic genocide of the snow elves deserved.
IronGrizzlyBear well to a sertenten point it was justified but then it got heckdit couseing falmer and the fact that the dwemer disappeared what left of them can't be reversed yet
I agree but towards the end of the Nord's campaign they had the Falmer of the run, what i want to know is if the nords hunting down the Falmer and actively chasing them to the ends of skyrim was justified. Had they simply fought the Falmer to a point where the Falmer couldn't fight back, but still sustain a stable population, I think that would have been justifiable.
A war was justified but the Atomoren (Nord ancestors) probably went to far, though it is impossible to tell if actual extinction was intended as the birthrates of the elvish races and human are very different. But what done is done, the snow elves degenerated into blind goblins when betrayed by the Dwarves and the Atmorens won land that would later become Skyrim
It wasn't really justified destroying them comply they could of keeped a town of them it would make the story of the elder scrolls could of been very different
Falmer killed off a nordic settlement in fear of them misussing the eye of magnus(not out of fear of the nords getting children quickly, this is what the winterhold questline brings to the lore). And the nords killed off AN ENTIRE RACE, the rest got changed into monsters by the dwemer... nords definetly went too far.
No one deserves to live in chains.
No one deserves to be slaughtered from the crimes of others.
By acting the way they did the Dunmer sealed their own fate.
By acting the way they did the argonians shackled themselves to new set of masters, the an-xieel.
Better to pity both.
I mean. The An-Xileel aren't that bad and besides, the Hist is above them anyway
@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 slaughtering half a nation is not bad... Yeah sure. The Hist maybe controlling them, but they are willing participants.
Tao 타키오 slaughtering? It was revenge for what they did to them
@@thomastakesatollforthedark2231 revenge or not. It's still that bad. Slavery has been outlawed for centuries, and while I understand the argonian plight, wiping out the entire nation I more than simple revenge. And the Anxileel are as xenophobic as the Thalmor to the rest of Tamriel.
Redoran: Am I a joke to you?
The Dunmer are my favorites. Also yes, inarguably yes. You spend half of the game Morrowind being confronted with the reasons why.
You are the definition of the phrase "Never before have I been so offended by something I 100% agree with."
The Dunmer got off lightly.
One ethical question: Are the people who see an evil act take place, and do nothing, are they not allowing such an evil to exist?
The Thief analogy doesn't really work here considering there are more people present than just you and the thief. People know about the thief, have known about the thief and whom they are targeting but have done nothing to stop them from continuing to steal from you. Even though many of these other people do not steal, is it in right for them to continue and only stand by, watching this thief continue to steal from you over and over again?
This also should include the fact that the primary group that wanted to stop the thief from stealing from you had been exiled.
You're just a peasant living a meek life, and praying to the three good Deadra that your crops won't fail to produce. You have a family, a shack, and some rags on your back. You go to town one day and see a Telvani wizard get attacked by an assassin. With the flick of his wrist the wizard turns said assassin into liquid shit. Tell me. Would you have the balls to go after the wizard let alone the entire house with farming tools? There's no Democracy or any peaceful means to do what you're suggesting in the world of the Elder Scrolls. It's a land of might makes right.
@@logancaine9616 agreed there on might makes right.
What the hell is an ordinary civilian supposed to do against a master wizard of house Telvanni? If he went up to the wizard and said that slavery is wrong what do you expect to happen? The wizard telling him to f*ck off at best and magically blasting the civilian to death at worst.
Think before you damn speak
@@marielenapotts848
The problem is that it is not "an ordinary civilian". The entire Dunmer society was sustained by the use of slaves, and that enabled them to avoid field work. Only a few Dunmer worked in the fields. So the reality is that the Dunmers did not complain about slavery because they benefited from it. Not because they didn't have the tools to stop that. It is for this reason that the thief's analogy does not work, since the correct analogy is: "there are thieves, and their relatives and neighbors benefit from what the thief steals. So they prefer to remain silent to continue enjoying what was stolen."
Rage got the best of Argonia, but the Thalmor pulled the strings.
Need less to say Argonia left a clear message. It's sovereignty isn't to be challenged.
then acts surprised when they wake up as an enslaved tributary state to the Third Thalmor Dominion.
@@Maxibon2007 I doubt the elves will gain a foothold in Argonia as no Empire ever really managed to conquer them. And the Elves have a track record of underestimating enemies. I think the Thalmor would invade Argonia self assured and be slaughtered whole sale by the Argonians, as well as the WIldlife, Plants and Diseases in the Heart of Argonia. Another point to consider in this is that what Interest would the Thalmor have in a dingy swamp inhabited by in their mind "primitive tree hugging savages"
@@Maxibon2007 What Thalmer is brave enough to step foot in Black Marsh?
@@Maxibon2007 Bro, it's been established in ES5 through books that Argonia is now a powerhouse that not even the Thalmor would want to challenge. They would most likely die from the diseases. There's a reason why the Dunmer never got slaves in Black Marsh but only on the borders.
"Look, some of my best slaves were Argonian. Wait that came out wrong." - Dagoth Ur.
perhaps the genocidal actions of the Argonians was to ensure that the enslaving of their race could never happen again at the hands of the Dunmer. Because when it comes to the enslaving of Argonians, who has done so more often than the dark elves.
I think that they'd be justified by that line of thinking. I also think it would have been interesting to know if any dark elves were taken back to Argonia as slaves.
i doubt a mer slave would be all that useful in black marsh
I think the war was more a preventive measure. Given the events presiding the war the oblivion crisis and the eruption of red mountain slavery would likely have been extensively expanded to aid recovery efforts
I've never thought of it that way but it makes sense seeing how intrinsically tied Morrowind's economy is to slavery
Argonian playing the flute through a dust mask XD
Yes... yes, he is... that 'flute' is more akin to what we would call a recorder (in earth terms) which could easily be played through cloth covering the mouth. Our modern flute, played by blowing breath over rather than through the wind hole, could not be played in such a fashion or would create an unusual challenge.
phatbassanchor You can do that with recorders? I had no idea. I am aware it resembles a recorder more but they call it a flute in-game.
How do dudes without lips even play a wind instrument at all?
Does any nation really *deserve* to be invaded? But the argonians had the power, they had enough justification to rally the troops, and they had the opportunity. End of the day, war never changes.
Does any nation really *deserve* to be enslaved?
@@StefanyDjuba this is a 3 year old comment...on a 3 year old video. How did you even find this? Ah well, nobody really deserves to have anything bad happen to them, but the world is a cruel place. The mark of true civilization is to be able to move on and forgive those who have wronged us. However, whether in games or real life, we're a very spiteful and hate filled species. Thus the circle of violence begins again. The old generation of oppressed giving rise to a new generation of oppressors, the old generation of oppressor falling to become a new generation of oppressed, and thus is born the phrase that fallout touts "War never changes".
@@clericofchaos1 I mean, the comments didn't disappear and neither did the video, not sure what's your confusion. I don't really buy into the forgive and forget thing. A good civilization protects its people, and that's what the argonians did. I think it's a little absurd to demand them to be forgiving when the dunmer weren't willing to be forgiving at all.
@@StefanyDjuba I mean, if you read the original comment, i didn't demand anything of them nor did i in anyway condemn their actions. On the contrary, i said "they had enough of a justification to rally the troops". Nor did i ever to say to forgive AND forget. You should be willing to forgive but you should never forget, lest history repeat itself. I was just pointing out that an eye-for-an-eye leaves everybody blind. It's very easy to hate. You can come up with an infinite number of reasons to hate other people, all of which make perfect sense to you. Whether they make sense to the rest of the world isn't your problem. Which is why there are people out there that hate others for stupid reasons like the color of their skin, or for some other nonsense like not being vaccinated. On the other hand, it's very hard to forgive. Which is why Christians are really the only ones capable of it. We're a peculiar people set aside from the world.
@@clericofchaos1 when I talked about demanding and condemning their actions I was talking about the point they made in the video, which I thought your comment was agreeing on
I like the Dunmer, but they brought this themselves. The Argonians took an eye for an eye. Centuries long Slavery is far worse than one single war.
A fudgemuppet Dunmer lore video. Best birthday present ever!
Happy Birthday!
FudgeMuppet thank you! You guys are awesome!
Happy birthday
Hope your birthday keeps getting better and will only be topped by each birthday to come.
Maybe Ill get a dunmer vid on mine as well.... Aug 24th.... another friday... lol
But really, hope your birthday is full of great times and memorable moments.
Birthday. Happy. You. To.
As a historian you should try not to apply morality to history. Nations aren't good or evil; they're selfish. They do what they think will give them the most benefit.
My thoughts exactly
Yep
yeah but genocide still isn't a good way to improve your foreign relations, making yourself only bigger a threath and target. It is selfish to retaliate a long running offense to your people, it is foolish to make enemies bigger than you, putting your people in danger.
Are you so far gone into this fictional world that you consider a lore youtuber as a historian? Dude....take your pills.
"game historian"? it's not as serious as a professional IRL historian but this guy still definitively has much more insight of the game lore and their maps than many, one to refer to when it's about the game's history (hence why "historian")
The pickpocket metaphors actually pretty shity a more accurate one would have been if someone pickpocketed you then you caught him and beat the shit out of them took your money and all his money would you have been Justified
In this case it would've been better "a thief steals a lot of your money, years pass, the thief has children and grandchildren that learn to abhorr their grand's crimes, then family tragedy after family tragedy happens which brings that family in peril only to then have your grandchildren beat up those of the thief's family and steal all their belongings".
It's a shame that only the dunmer have means to talk with their ancestors while argonians only bred hatred within their families, a single level headed argonian ancestor could've helped in preventing the genocidal campaign, with only the thick-headed dunmer ancestors still sticking around and causing quarrel in their own houses.
@@cdgonepotatoes4219 honestly I'd say its more, "thief takes everything you have, you and your whole family are called stupid and ignored in society while the thief keeps coming back and taking your stuff, this happens for generations until your descendants beat the shit our of the the descendant of the thieves who also partook in stealing from you"
@@danielshore1457 I feel like I got caught by some unreliable narrators... but I guess that's what makes me like this world:
"" You can't make an abridged version of everything in it, or at least you need to make multiple abridged versions each taking the view of conflicting characters who all believe they're right. There's no 'third better option'. ""
I was quick to trust every single Dunmer upheld the Ebonheart Pact's "don't enslave lizards" even after all this time and who knows if they even had the power or will to enforce that between houses when they're too busy bickering over other things.
House Dres and House Telvani deserved it. The other Great Houses of Morrowind however most certainly did not deserve it. The fact that Blackmarsh even slaughtered those in House Haluluu, who were almost universally against slavey, is just morally abhorrent. Even regarding Dres and Telvani, not only did only a few of them actually own any slaves, like you said, but many of those who didn't were probably starving from unemployment because of it. Just because they were not suffering nearly as badly from the institution of slavery as the slaves themselves does not mean that they were not still suffering from it.
agreed mate😧
I'm betting you've owned a pair of Nike shoes in your life, right? Or a smart phone? Or some other luxury item like that.
Luxury goods are cheap in the U.S. because people (including children sometimes) in the 3rd world work in near-slavery conditions.
Do you think those people in the 3rd world would be morally justified if they decided they wanted to kill you and your entire family?
Because I don't. This is the logic you are affirming.
yes, yes they did.
as we learned in morrowind even elves that weren't actively engaged in the slave trade supported it and treated those who opposed it horribly
only a relatively small number of americans will go to war or launch missiles
does that mean that when we vote to slaughter people that we're innocent of the act?
not owning slaves doesn't save you if you SUPPORT the trade
me not killing you doesn't mean shit if i'm saying that you deserve to die
helseth's proposal wasn't entire opposed...but then it did spark him to become considered a figurehead of the empire
and once again put him at odds with many of his own people
it sparked a bloody civil war that he won...and "effectively" removed the slave trade..but how long will helseth reign? how many detractors simply nod and go along with it while plotting in the dark to have the imperial figurehead removed?
a law without the support of the people isn't an effective law, it only holds so long as you have the strength to beat them if they disobey you
and there happen to be 2 very..very effective guilds operating in morrowind that for the right price will remove him from power, resulting in a new king..likely not sharing the same imperial mindset, not being leashed
@@death299 Get off the computer then bigot
@@iamdream2562 "bigot"? for believing that people that openly condone slavery do deserve the revolt and revolution from the people they enslave?
are you saying you'd blame africans for killing americans and/or invading america for a thousands of years of invasion of their territory, killing of their soldiers and removal of their young for such a purpose?
does a man that beats his wife day in and day out while holding a gun to their kids head if they dare leave..is he responsible for her actions when/if she kills him
or did he have it coming?
slave revolts, were they unjustified? many resulted in slave owners and those in LE who hunted them down being killed
the majority of morrowind was in support of slavery the entire damn time, including in house Redoran and Hlaalu that banned it
for a variety of reasons, from supporting it to abolishing and freeing slaves being immoral on the grounds that slavery is legal in the nation
the difference between third world countries and actual slavery is that one is exploitation of negative circumstances (which is extremely immoral) and the other is going out of your way to abuse and deny living things of rights because you fucking can
it's the same reason a family and child selling their organs (or marriage) is..wrong to buy but not nearly as wrong as you going to the country, shooting the family, taking the organs/individual and then selling them
which one do you think the courts would look worse on? which one do you think would result in anger and the next time someone like you comes into the area them being fucking flayed?
if you have to keep a nation from engaging in slavery or genocide by holding a knife to the people's throats, no one is going to feel sympathy when the people you openly kill slit your throat the moment you show any sign of weakness
if almost everyone in mexico supported killing men and women of the states and enslaving the children
do you honestly think that you would be opposed to killing them the moment something happened to destabilize their military capability?
you can't engage in vile actions for thousands of years and expect some sort of pity card when you're put in the seat of being executed for it
they were engaged in this shit thousands of years before Alessia was born, thousands of years before they became "dark elves" and were simply Chimer
they were given a very..very real chance to end it and they opposed it, in many instances killing abolitionists and when they weren't killed they were often forced to keep those views entirely hidden
i'm a fan of the dark elves, but they definitely had it coming
they see it as their right to own others, choices have consequences...sometimes those consequences are severe
FM: "What about the other non slave owning Dunmer?"
Me: "Weren't they still pro slavery?"
FM: "Do they deserve to be slaughtered simply for approving of slavery?"
Me: "Yes."
FM: "It's just a harmless thought though."
Me: "'The beast races are not people and deserve to be attacked and enslaved' is not a 'harmless' belief."
Woke culture defending genozide...
@@etetepete the Argonians waged a retaliatory war against a people who viewed them as worthless animals to be murdered or enslaved and you want to come in here and defend them?
"Oh the victims of countless raids, massacres, and occupations that led to their brutal subjugation are fighting back? Aren't you just as bad as the evil supremacist empire for cheering their victims on as they carve their way through them?"
No. However, if you think my original comment is evil, just wait until you hear about the Haitian Revolution. It was glorious.
@@faffywhosmilesatdeath5953 Declaring a genozidal war is evil. Theres no way around. No matter the history.
@@etetepete yeah, you keep on peddling that "both sides" garbage.
Well said.
When a nation commits sins against yours, your nation doesn't try to target specific individuals. It's not practical and since the majoirty of the culture is complicit just getting rid of the slave masters would just mean they'd have their positions filled by new people (mer)
Look up president Ngo Dinh Diem during the Vietnam war. He and his brother were targeted individuals for the injustice in south Vietnam. That stuff happens in the real world
Video could of been ended in 2 seconds “yes”
Another note:
We also should consider that this can also be applied to the Argonians living in Black Marsh. We have to make the assumption that not *all* Argonians were onboard with the whole ‘murder all the Dunmers’ thing. Maybe they were all, “Go after the fuckers responsible for our suffering, but leave the innocents out of this!” Maybe some others were all, “Good, good. We’re finally free from the filthy Greybacks. Let’s do our thing and pretend they don’t exist.”
Granted, I’m not sure how the Hist works, but to say that all of Argonia wanted this is kind of a fallacy. The powers that be might have wanted it and the average Jun Sleem-ka was too poor/lacking in political powers to do anything about it.
Every slaver deserves every bit of misfortune that comes their way.
This was a message from the Twin Lamps.
I have a head cannon theory for this.
The argonian invasion was part of a secrete punishment by the original tribunal, for the dark elves betrayal.
Azurah might have cursed them with red eyes and great skin, but for centuries thay continued to fallow Vivec Amalexia and Sunel Seal (yah I butchered those).
So Even after the false tribunal failed Boethiah Malphala and Azurah where not quite willing to take back there flock unpunished.
Azurah's punishment was standing by and saying nothing before the oblivion crisis.
Boethiah saw to it that red mountain erupted.
Melphala sowed the seeds of resentment among the argonians, and watched as they murdered many dark elves.
Remember when you make deals with deadra keep them. They are fickel and hate nothing more then those who go back on there deals.
That's brilliant!
Yes and no. Did individual families really deserve it? Absolutely not. But if your people enslave, browbeat and abuse another for centuries, you're going to risk something like this happening.
I like how a slave rebellion against a race of slavers gets framed as genocide but he just goin to act Like Ysgramor didnt ACTUALLY genocide not just fight a territorial war. DUDE owning a slave isnt the only evil - its supporting the system of slavery or not fighting against it.
Not to mention how alessia and pelinal are seen as heroes, how is what the argonians did any different?
@@danielshore1457 Both the Argonian and the alessian slave rebellion are good, is this too difficult to grasp?
@@danielshore1457 the ayleids were monsters that deserved everything that happened to them
*St. Alessia* slaughters the Aleiyds and is seen a hero. *Ysgramor* committed genocide against the Snow Elves and is heralded as a legend. But Argonians fighting their slavers so they won't become slaves again is somehow seen as morally bad? Really Michael...
That's the problem right there. Argonians don't have the "one person" to represent their cause. With Alessia and Ysgramor, people can sympathize with them more personally as there are names of sons and loved ones involved.
@@shaokhanwins1037 Which honestly should be even more a reason to see Argonians in the right here. You can attach a hero to a name as much as a villain. Only difference is there’s no Snow Elves or Ayleids around to give there side of the story.
@@darkpaw1522 solid point
Yes they did deserve it, this is coming from a guy who always plays as a dark elf for their magic and weapons expertise. I love the argonians and the culture they have some of the best.
Plenty of the Dunmer killed didnt have slaves and many of them probably saw slavery as immoral
@@michaela2634 Dumner "morality" as a concept is one big grey area at best. So it's entirely possible that slavery was not viewed as right or wrong, but instead just a fact of life.
That's how it was for thousands of years human history at any rate.
Plot twist: Humans were the most evil race all along
@@michaela2634 A lot of those "innocent" Dunmer were still complicit as bystandards to Argonian oppression. Not all of them deserved to die, but they are reasonable casualties.
@@michaela2634 and yet much like the Empire, those so called innocent dunmer did absolutely nothing about it. Fuck them
That's because you're a filthy N'wha, also imperial swine probably.
As an American this is stepping into some testy apologetics territory
Yeah, nobody ever bases slavery stories on the trade that still goes on today.
After the intro I’ve come to the conclusion that this will be 20 minutes of me questioning my bias towards argonians aha
Loreshelter well I'm black so that explains my bias, thou that doesn't really make it right
Elder Moose Argonians and the dunmer are my top two favorite races. So my feelings are conflicted.
I like cats
Argonians are property.
Loreshelter whats funny is that me favorite races are the dark elves and the argonians
From a military objective the actions they took makes sense regardless if all Dark Elves deserved it. By destroying infrastructure and showing strength in force they made it very unlikely that the Dark Elves would be in a position to enslave the Argonian race in a future time. If you have freedom then you need to make sure that you are in a position to keep it.
they deserved it.... the owners are guilty, the trappers deserved it, the dark elves who enforced the slavery are guilty so it's a whole lot more than just the rich slave owners... and it can't really be equated to having your wallet stolen or just be called people that hurt you... or a culture to blame. The dark elves as a culture invaded and kidnapped one would assume generations of argonians and forced them into slavery. Probably a whole lot more than "the numbers of NPCs slaves" since that has technical limits not story limits... and even more considering how long elves live in general.
as for some innocent bystanders, sure that happens in violent liberation and that is a guilty charge but can they risk being too discriminate in their freedom and continued freedom against an enemy that is as strong in might and magic as the dark elves? nah. as for the devastation from red mountain... that's got nothing to do with the Argonians.
dark elves had it coming.
Exactly, dunmer fanboys act as if they're the good guys, which they most certainly aren't. They're xenophobic assholes with a collective superiority complex.
@@FrogyFan Nothing wrong with a superiority complex when you actually are superior.
Ignoring the racist comment, wow you are both sociopaths. The innocent should not be punished for the crimes of their countrymen. You can't go around killing random people because someone that shares their skin color did something bad.
Please none of you ever get into any kind of public service
@@grillmadeofrecycledgrenade3197 The same could be said about how the Dunmer captured and treated them as slaves. The fact the Tribunal allowed it says a lot about the culture.
@@IveBeenWithBruma the same cannot be said. "You killed my mother, I killed you" is vengeance. Still wrong but reasonable. "You killed my mother so I killed yours, who may or may not approve or even know of your actions" is the logic of a truly sick mind.
Brother, this isn't "somone pickpocked you so you killed their family", it's "somone kidnapped your wife, raped her continuously, for years, and forced her to do any household jobs there were while keeping her chained up in the basement at night. And the family didn't participate but they didn't complain about any of this and were complicit in the whole affair... so you killed the entire family and rescued her"
That sounds a lot more reasonable now
You dropped this. 👑
Dunmers never really get a break, do they? Cursed by a daedric prince, ruled by power crazed tribunal, got a meteor sized structure literally fell on one of their major city, got one of the biggest (if not the biggest) volcano on tamriel blow up on them and buried them under ash for hundreds of years, got invaded by the argonians, ran to skyrim just be discriminated against. Harsh... Well, at least the're not being betrayed and turned into a creepy cave dwellers like what happened to the falmers. That one was just bad...
Rhanindito Widodo about half of those things wouldn't have happened if they weren't such dicks to everyone
DragonHeart 12 👏👏👏
DragonHeart 12
All the races are dicks to eachother.
Hammerfell doesn't trust anyone outside the borders.
Skyrim despises beast races and Elves.
High Rock is snobby and sees their neighbouring Orcs as vermin.
Orcs don't trust anyone that aren't from their strongholds.
Black Marsh ambushes and kills any outsiders.
Morrowind generally dislikes what they call "outlanders"
Valenwood is a reasonably racial-friendly place, but their odd/taboo lifestyle doesn't attract alot of outsiders.
Summerset has a superiority complex and believes every race is beneath them.
Cyrodiil is definitely the most racially equal out of all of them.
Ya Forgot Elsweyr friend this one feels like to remind you about it.
Before they were Dunmer, they were the Chimer, a race responsible for things more repugnant than even widespread slavery and enough arrogance to make today's Thalmor jealous. They needed their asses whipped into shape, but probably not as hard as they got it.
I am sure some Argonians spoke against it and got belittled, silenced, shunned or even killed. Just as I am sure some Dunmer were disgusted by slavery. I would like to see a mini-quest about a Dunmer and an Argonian who are friends but turn enemy over a misunderstanding and the Player character can help resolve the truth or choose sides or even go against both.
The dark elves deserved what they got.
Jay except the children. The Dunmer children did nothing wrong and were powerless to do anything about the slavery
Vivec : I'm so merciful ima hold this meteor above my city so everyone can see how powerful and merciful I am. :)
Vivec after losing his divinity: I didn't think that through. You know, I think I might have wrote about hubris in one of my lessons.. Hmm, the god whom protects all, is sure to destroy all.. ah, needs refinement. Oh cra-
It's no bcoz his compassion it's to boost his ego .Vivec literally told the dunmer if they're refuse to worship him he would drop on them.Also , prayers and reverence increase the power of gods. Without , prayers gods become weaker and lose their influence.Thats why Vivec hold the meteor above instead tossing it somewhere or destroy it. It's exacty the same reason thalmor try to with by banning worship of Talos.
What's really goofy about that is that apparently he held it there without reducing its momentum.
It wouldn't have done that much damage by simply plopping down from a few hundred feet
I like dunmer. They are simple amazing. With Dagoth ur returning, the tribunal dead, the oblivion crisis, the eruption of the red mountain and the destruction of vivec city they still didn't give up. Of all the races in tamriel I think these guys are the best because even when they were at their lowest and the argonians attacked they held back with the meagre forces they had and even managed to reclaim some parts of the land they lost to the argonians. And if that isn't awesome then I don't know what is. Their conduct of slavery isn't justified but neither is slaughtering the millions of innocents because of the wrongs done by the few hundred elites.
Overall after all this I think the dunmer will recover from all this and maybe we will see morrowind brought back to normal again in TES 6.
The vid length was 20 mins on the spot, when I refreshed the page it went to 19:59. this angers me.
Thank you Jesus.
Amen to that.
?
Don’t you mean- (sigh)forget it...
This is why I hate Christianity but not people
Doing these great video's takes alot of time and efforts.
Dark Elf coping mental gymnastics 101 😂
i think the attack on the dunmer was justified, i dont think id ever say it was righteous. the dunmer did have comeuppance coming. their cultural values literally tell them that owning and subjugation of another is their right as a dunmer. this is the ultimate version of "actions have consequences", a cultural that pervades ownership of another being, getting smashed into heel. bardow, red mountain and the argonian invasion is the justice against the dunmers own hubris within themselves and throughout their culture. unfortunately many innocent dunmer would die but again i think it lessens the impact that much of the dead were from dres lands whose peoples regularly profit or for the layman benefit their current lifestyles.
will be excited to hear about what happens with this in elder scrolls 6, you know, as long as bethesda doesnt just shit on their own lore
Something that I have always wondered. When a group of people collectively agree that a heinous practice is okay because the group largely benefits from it, and then set a few of its members to do said act, are the acting members then the only guilty ones?
For this case, those slaves created wealth and managed some of the worst jobs that none the less _had_ to be done, so the Morrorwind population as a whole benefited from having slaves, and since there isn't a lot of public outcry against it, then the Dumners must be okay with it continuing.
Both are right in that at the time they had the power to do so. The dunmer enslaved the beasts, and the beasts took revenge. 🤷🏼
Would you like a lizard man to punish you for the evils your society engages in?
Nah argonians were just making sure their future children won't be enslaved. Not about revenge, it's about self preservation
Exactly. If argonians are capable of revenge, they know damn well the dunmer are capable of it too.
Cultural practices don’t occur in a vacuum though. Dark elf society is one of slavery - and such economies encompass far more than just the ownership of chattel slaves.
You can’t blame the lizards for being pissed off after hundreds of years of dispossession and attempted genocide - although I agree with you that counter-genocide is not exactly the greatest strategy either.
4:12 *I’LL MOUNT YOUR HEAD ON MY WALL!!!*
Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: Yesssssss.
The wrath and cruelty of the slave masters cannot be compared to the wrath and cruelty of the slaves.
The sun will shine once more on the Dunmer, banishing the darkness from Vvardenfell and all of Morrowind until naught but ashfields and glory remain in it's wake.
Dunmer murdered the argonians indiscriminantly so argonians can do it right back to them so if your gonna be mad be mad at the dunmer
Argonians be like "Hipity hopity I ain't yo property" 👽🔪
As they should
"Argonians are property. Telvanni in this bitch, s'wit!"
*An-Xileel:* "So clumsy! All my fault..."
"It's time for a prayer, it's time for a prayer. For our lord Dres can't wake up, and his food has gone stale. His whip won't be cracking, all netch ran away...
Marsh Brothers, Marsh Sisters, it is a good day!"
But seriously, I see you're a true saxhleel shelik as well. And that song is absolute poison, my friend.
4:46 I like to think the Blackmarsh was like Vietnam for the Deadra.
Oblivion is America.
This is one of your best video yet. Absolutely superbly written
Thank you so much! Really appreciate it :)
Sithis approves
I played as the "Argonian Slave" build and every slave camp on Solstiem was turned into a bloodbath. Felt pretty damn good.
SlyBiffrons Yeah dude.
I don't remember any. Is it a mod?
SlyBiffrons It's been a while but I'm pretty sure there are. If not then I must've been playing a modded version.
SlyBiffrons its a mod my dude.. theirs no slaves on the island
Timesweeper 9 you were definitely playing a mod
The only problem with "An eye for an eye" is that everyone ends up blind.
Yeah you're right, alright guys, let's continue being slaves so we don't end up like them dark elves.
@@sunlight-sky151 Classic Commie comment
Dunmer lady from windhelm: "Do you hate our kind? Have you come to bully us?"
Me an argonian: "Well, Yes."
Its not about which dark elves did the enslaving, its about sending the message that the Argonians are no longer a force to be fucked with
Yes. Next question.
The Argonians were simply doing what other races have been doing in Tamriel for hundreds of years
As a question of morality, ponder this: the Dunmer won't always be on the back foot as they are now. There will come a time, maybe in a few more decades or maybe a few more centuries from the current time, where they will be in a better position to strike out at other people again. By delivering such a vicious, no-holds barred massacre on the Dunmer when they were at their weakest, the Argonians sent a message, which is that the blood, sweat and tears which had provided prosperity to Morrowind for generations would be repaid, with interest.
With that in mind, when the Dunmer are less weak in the future, and some noble gets nostalgic for the glory days and starts suggesting firing up slaving raids again, the unspeakable price inflicted on them by the Argonians should give the Dunmer leadership pause. And that pause could well be enough to save future generations of Argonians from suffering under the lash.
Does that justify the slaughter? Maybe not, but if I were an Argonian, I would be strongly considering it...
Short answer 100% yes and today Argonions are still the most alienated race
The Dark Elves got what was coming to them whether ppl want to admit it or not. The “innocent” non slavers sure as hell didn’t go out of there way to stamp the practice out so I’m not sure what the Argonians owed them...
but they did
Slavery is Illegal in Morrowind by the Third Era meaning Argonia invaded after they Abolished it
As argonian main I feel soo awkward when playing the dragonborn dlc especially when talking to npc about the current event
I don’t O just subtly smirk
I agree with this, it would have been just for the argonians to crush House Dres and even House Telvanni but the killing of innocent Dunmer who are basically peasants is just genocide
Funny thing every time something threatens Morrowind it's usually the redoran and or the telvanni that slap it down so yah lizards wanna assault the mage Lord's in Thier towers hahaha best of luck.....
“war.. war never changes”
5 mins later: *nuke explosions in Pennsylvania and New York*
(Fallout reference)
I know this is 5 years old, but I can't disagree more. Enslaving 1 person is wrong. Enslaving a people is a completely justified for declaration of war. The rest of Dunmer should have went to war with House Dres and House Telvanni by never doing anything they are all culpable and the Argonian are justified.
4:00 The first time I saw this, this hit me. HARD.
All whip holders deserve whatever horror they have coming their way.
Still gotta give the "right side of history" to the Argonians. Even with the fact that not many dunmer would have taken part in slave raids and even fewer would have owned slaves, The remaining dunmer are still apathetically supporting a culture built on, at least in part, Slavery and a racial superiority complex.
Dunmer culter has been around for a couple thousand recorded years now, Thats plenty of time for there to be at the very least an established counter culture movement to change the destructive aspects of Dunmer society, But no...
Also That whole elven racial supremecy schtick needs to be cut down once or twice an Era before you start getting zealots wanting to undo the fabric of exhistance and revert the mer races into being immortal spirits again or something like that
As someone with more than 5 argonian characters in skyrim and a dunmer that i droped as soon as i found out they used argonians as slaves, the elves deserved it, both high and dark elves should be wiped out, leave the bosmer, as they don't bother anyone, and the orcs, as they also had a rough time.
15:58 "I'm gonna make this bread...DISAPPEAR!"
0:00 Is that the Underhanded Slavery mod? I love it!
Drew loves Dunmer. This was always going to be biased from the beginning of the video. Argonians just as bad? How many Argonian Families were ripped apart because Dunmer didn’t want to cultivate their own slat rice? How many Argonians died slaving for centuries? The Argonians aren’t saints but the Dunmer make them look as much.
I love how everyone's saying how the innocent people got caught up in the slaughter, when the Dunmer probably used woman and children as slaves.
and maybe use dead argonian as wallets and shoes, khajit as clothing
@@Ren21798 Yes, it is pretty sad.
The good part is, the red eyes make up for a good decoration.
The droids attack the wookies and nobody lifts a finger
Me, having watched the video now, also an Argonian player, a history and economics enthusiast, and Paradox grand strategy gamer: morality is in the realm of the individual thinker. On the national scale, morality doesn't really matter except to mobilize the population.
Economics has the decision making concept of game theory, where if you can identify the nature of the game being played, you know what actions give you the most benefit. The types of games are positive sum where all parties can potentially gain, negative sum where all parties stand to lose but maybe not as much as everyone else, and zero sum where no matter what action is taken nothing is added to or removed from the game.
In a pre-industrial world like the Elder Scrolls, productive land is finite. No matter what you do, without advances in technology you can't make land you already have more productive, each acre of land has its own value and that value is set. Black Marsh and Morrowind occupy X square miles of Tamriel, no land can be added or removed. This means the game being played between Black Marsh and Morrowind is a zero-sum game, no matter where the borders are between the two polities, the amount of land they occupy stays the same, they each only control varying percentages of it.
Thus, if Black Marsh and Morrowind are hostile to each other, when one player is weak, it's in the interest of the other player to exploit their weakness. Morrowind has been playing it through small land grabs and perpetual slave raids for centuries because Black Marsh was the weaker player, if there are no consequences for exploiting them then they must be exploited. Suddenly Black Marsh sees that Morrowind is significantly weaker than they are, so the only move that benefits them at that time is to invade Morrowind to grab the land Morrowind is unable to secure.
Stepping out of economics, while extremely fucked up, it is in a nation's interest to either purge or assimilate the native population of conquered lands and occupy the land with loyal supporters to minimize rebellions and uprisings, which is why humanity continues to do that fucked up shit to itself even to this day.
When governments are the players involved, the morality of its individual citizens fade into the background. If they benefit from cooperating they will cooperate, if they benefit from ruthlessly exploiting the other they will do so. The reasoning and justifications for land expansions are but details. The end goal is always the same: increase economic output, or at the very least increase the wealth of the ruling coalition.
Every body gangsta until
THIS IS THE HIST.
DO NOT RESIST.
PRESENCE IN GODHEAD NO LONGER REQUIRED EXISTENCE DENIED.
This is the Hist
Do not resist
As someone, who's part of a nation that has endured 500 years of slavery, I would say that the Argonians were extreme in their invasion. However, it is also wise to remember that none of that would of happened if the Dunmer didn't enslave them. Yes, the invasion was brutal, but the Dunmer brought it upon themselves. In other words "If you play with fire, be prepared to get burned."
Brazil?
@@StefanyDjuba Nah, it's Bulgaria.
Ysgrammor, Tiber Septim, and the other Human genocidal maniac were celebrated as badasses so why can’t the Argonians be too?😊
I love Dark elves, and I'm sad what happened to them. But you say that Argonians should kill just the slave masters..... that not how people (argonians) can get their revenge, thats not how they think. I know how you mean it and i dont agree with you.... histrori is full of exapmles like this. When blood eager mob has the opportunity to kill and get their revenge mob simlpy do what mob wants to. They dont care if only 5% of the richone are the reason of their suferring. Your way simply can't work in "normal" world or in fantasy world :D and btw i love your videos (about Dark elves the most) :) GOOD work buddy. (y)
Mr lentelka 💯💯💯💯💯
Yes. Eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth.
Have we had a build about the An-Xileel? Not that you look at every comment on old vids, but pretty good build idea to flesh out.
They have an Argonian Slave build. The backstory doesn't involve the An-Xileel, but the gear and skill investment is what I would think of for such a character. All you'd really need to do is change up the backstory.