am retired and trapped in by the heat so I want to make a case study of this video to help the community and himself with some tips as to whats going on. it will be lengthy but still like watching machining videos. very good sincere video the guy did. You wont like it at first and will come across like a lecture but you will like it alot in two weeks. As he took the time and effort for the video I also will invest time in it not just one line comments
That Reid as you know is a nice grinder. I have the Boyar shultz 2A-618. 2 more for rebuild. Thanks for the video, I wasn't award of the "Norbide" learned something. -Tom
Thanks! I've seen a few pretty good deals lately too. I'm thinking surface grinders aren't in demand like mills or lathes. If I had more space is be looking for an automatic wet grinder. Never enough dang space! 😁
Hey Mike, now that I've got my surface grinder up and running, do you have any suggestions where I can find a jig for grinding HSS lathe tools? Stan at Barz did a video on one. Looks pretty tricky to make. th-cam.com/video/_GOu6db4EJc/w-d-xo.html
a quick on on sparking out while grinding dry such as when doing precision tooling. You have to multitask you cannot stand at grinder and go back and forth. the sparkout is not what you think hitting off high spots. The fact is the part is expanding up into the wheel and even during sparkout you can get howling and burning. when a person stands there going back and forth till all sparks are gone that is simply because the heat now has gone down into the entire part and chuck. as far as the pin cusion effect when he goes very small stepovers the heat front is outracing the wheel. it is not just the hump in the x it also occurs in the Y. when he starts from back stone cold he finishes up with part hot and the front will be lower. as you start back you wonder "why am I now hitting on the back?" that is why you are going from cold to hot then racing right back over hot to cold. final passes of tenth or so that is why go back to front--now crank back in air. now go again. you are now passing over the metal at same temp. if grinding dry you have to multitask and have other things going on final passes. dust across then go over and set up other machine or do garbage. now come back and dust over again and knock off the ears. if something only has to be "within ten thous?" thats a milling op not grinding
when he dresses the wheel using the old style diamond when he dresses forward and back BE AWARE IF THAT DIAMOND WAS SHARP HE KNURLED THE WHEEL. he has two helixes going there--that is why when you do that and you look at surface it looks like a mess which in most cases does not matter. I rough dress than do final dress back to front. if something is precision and important if you final pass back to front you have a mess. if you finish front to back such as final tenth or so the helix now produces perfect surface. That is a fact even if when sparking out on tooling I want perfect i finish by cranking off wheel off the part and crank forward as fast as i can and take each final 2 or 3 sparkouts going front to the back
Re the balancing issue, on my SG the wheel fits directly to the shaft so there is no way to balance it off the machine or on for that matter. Im not overly safety minded but it worries me when people wipe the chuck with their hand under a wheel, i know yours was not turning but i feel it is a bad habit to get into because one day you might forget and spinning wheels and tendons don't much like each other. I always move the chuck to one extreme to reduce the risk of contact.
You have a very valid point. I've seen it happen. I took the guy to the emergency room. Plowed a 1/4 inch deep trench 1/2 wide across three of his fingers. That's why I do very little with the wheel spinning. Tc, Mike
balancing of wheel: when dressing an unbalanced wheel it dresses to the unbalance and the surface will be fine (if not micro inspected). but I have a surprise for you. that imbalance will toast your bearings over time except in this situation in a shop the grinder is rarely used for long hours. Wheels should in fact be balanced and left on the hub. There is no reason not to do it. People have issues with the actual balancing which can in fact be done not in seconds but in minutes. The large grinder such as his 6-18 MOST CERTAINLY those should be balanced on dedicated hubs
should that grinder be in shop situation and used constantly out of balance wheels what will occur (long after we all are dead) is that even with balancing the surface does not look right thats because bearings are shot you now have balanced wheel going all over the place
what i will do is restart the video and comment on each thing. several things among the first start is he stones off the chuck then dresses then grinds. dress first then stone chuck. if you take a ruby stone and run it across after dressing i assure you there are hundreds of micro dings. Next is whether accuracy is needed for the item such as it will be used on mill. surface grinding is accuracy and can be done much faster to max a tenth using same method everything you do. He does in fact make a common mistake in that he started out grinding the part upside down setting it on big surface first. on the top was the small surface about half. stone off that surface and put it down and dust off the reference surface the big surface. put the big surface down and dust off a half tenth or so on that small surface since you are there already. You are now grinding in record time to millionths. however he is grinding dry but in cold shop. The surfaces he mentions are not flat when they reach room temp they are dished low in the middle that is why at several points you see the pin cusion effect where the wheel is hitting "on the outer ears" as he paused the heat equalized and the middle dropped down. at several points he looks under the wheel to creep up to the surface. time is money. with wheel off put wheel off to the right and come way past down creep table into contact with wheel. raise up wheel till it slips over and rolls over the part. crank wheel to the back turn on wheel. dust across feeding a couple tenths till spark and do passes. when he comes up to the shoulder and that lower level the same method is used. go to right bring wheel down and touch edge till wheel rolls over. raise up wheel a couple thous. crank up to shoulder going back and forth till wheel makes contact. set y zero. turn on wheel dust off sidewheeling the ledge going fast as possible and getting away from it fast. now crank wheel till spark now feed out as he correctly showed. cross feed: he has his crossfeed wrong. he has it backwards. on that manual grinder the cross feed is done as fast as possible with his right hand spinning the wheel AT TOP SPEED. The cross feed rarely should be less than 1/4 the width of the wheel to use the entire wheel and lift it up. This exact method is used not only surface grinding but cylindrical grinding where the feed of the wheel going across should never be less than 1/4 or 1/2 the wheel width. That is why he was grinding using only the leading edge of the wheel and ended up with a tapered wheel exactly as he noted. He then fed across to use "the sharp edge" however that sharp edge is a knife edge of the taper that is why he spotted bad surface. I was astonished to see near the end that he correctly theorized that the cupping was from the load of the wheel knocking it imperceptibly off concentric from the hub!! It is a common issue because nobody tightens the wheel enough and often the problem occurs while roughing that the wheel hits the edge of part and knocks it off and you get big dishes. However it can also occur as he stated. that as wheel loads up from improper grinding such as too small crossfeed the melted metal will start "howling" and the pressures then reach the same point to knock the wheel off concentric. dressing with the diamond he is using is not practical anymore I turned away from it and will never return. A far better dresser are the diamond dressers they sell for bench grinders. Take off and throw away handle. Put head in small vice or holder of any kind. Use that to dress wheel you have thousands of tiny diamonds for a lifetime. I will gladly mail him a few.
I apologize but I am currently waiting on my PM forum profile to be accepted so I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask here. My company just bought a new Chevalier surface grinder and the operator hasn't been taught how to dress the grinding wheel automatically. He has been doing it manually but we know but the manual given to us only tells us that there is a program for it plus it has a diamond tip dressing point setup off to the side of the magnet. Any advise would be much appreciated, thank you.
If you take the wheel off the hub you have to redress. If you leave the the wheel on the hub and take the hub off the spindle you won't have to. No big deal either way if it's a just a straight dress on the bottom of the wheel. But if you can avoid having to redress a radius or a contour you can save some time.
@@michaelmurray9154 actually I got this answered since posting. Older machines can’t be trusted to start up concentric to the last time they were ran. A brand new machine should grind the same but old school guys always told me to dress every time you cut power to the spindle to get it back to dressed relative to the center of rotation.
in the old books they should look them up and sue their relatives for damages "those paper blotters are there not to crush wheel wheel BARELY SNUG OR YOU WILL CRUSH AND EXPLODE THE WHEEL! pure garbage. in the united states manufacturing and the world community that statement alone cause billions of dollars of loss per year when grinding. on every machinist group there is almost all the posts show the cupping and the wheels are simply loose
Yes, that block could come in real handy. Very clever!
Awesome video Mike I see many instances where that would save a lot of time. God bless and keep the good ideas coming. STAY SAFE!!
Thanks Anthony. I hope you are feeling better and out in the shop soon. TC, Mike
am retired and trapped in by the heat so I want to make a case study of this video to help the community and himself with some tips as to whats going on. it will be lengthy but still like watching machining videos. very good sincere video the guy did. You wont like it at first and will come across like a lecture but you will like it alot in two weeks. As he took the time and effort for the video I also will invest time in it not just one line comments
Nice grinding bud, and a handy tool block.
Al.
Thanks Al. I hope all is well on your side of the pond!
Good tips nice video I see you are a 1k subs! Way to go!!
Thanks Doc. Only 995 more to get to 2000! 😂
That Reid as you know is a nice grinder. I have the Boyar shultz 2A-618. 2 more for rebuild. Thanks for the video, I wasn't award of the "Norbide" learned something. -Tom
I've got a finger like that...😄. Horizontal bandsaw...😐
Knoxville....a little bit warmer
Kinetic precision for the superb wheel balancer....most important especially for finish...(my 2 cents)
@@tomeyssen9674 Fingers can take a beating through the years. Battle scars! 😆
Great job Mike! I just wish I had the space for a surface grinder. I've seen some pretty nice ones go for cheap lately.
Thanks! I've seen a few pretty good deals lately too. I'm thinking surface grinders aren't in demand like mills or lathes. If I had more space is be looking for an automatic wet grinder. Never enough dang space! 😁
@@michaelmurray9154 Hey Michael, I bought a boyar Schultz 612. I haven't seen it yet, but I'm hoping it's not a turd, it's only 7hrs away from me! :-O
Hey Mike, now that I've got my surface grinder up and running, do you have any suggestions where I can find a jig for grinding HSS lathe tools? Stan at Barz did a video on one. Looks pretty tricky to make. th-cam.com/video/_GOu6db4EJc/w-d-xo.html
a quick on on sparking out while grinding dry such as when doing precision tooling. You have to multitask you cannot stand at grinder and go back and forth. the sparkout is not what you think hitting off high spots. The fact is the part is expanding up into the wheel and even during sparkout you can get howling and burning. when a person stands there going back and forth till all sparks are gone that is simply because the heat now has gone down into the entire part and chuck. as far as the pin cusion effect when he goes very small stepovers the heat front is outracing the wheel. it is not just the hump in the x it also occurs in the Y. when he starts from back stone cold he finishes up with part hot and the front will be lower. as you start back you wonder "why am I now hitting on the back?" that is why you are going from cold to hot then racing right back over hot to cold. final passes of tenth or so that is why go back to front--now crank back in air. now go again. you are now passing over the metal at same temp.
if grinding dry you have to multitask and have other things going on final passes. dust across then go over and set up other machine or do garbage. now come back and dust over again and knock off the ears. if something only has to be "within ten thous?" thats a milling op not grinding
34-50 is historic. guy has it right on. The cupping he kept commenting on was not out of balance it is because nobody tightens the wheel enough
Interesting video…I have the same grinder
when he dresses the wheel using the old style diamond when he dresses forward and back BE AWARE IF THAT DIAMOND WAS SHARP HE KNURLED THE WHEEL. he has two helixes going there--that is why when you do that and you look at surface it looks like a mess which in most cases does not matter. I rough dress than do final dress back to front. if something is precision and important if you final pass back to front you have a mess. if you finish front to back such as final tenth or so the helix now produces perfect surface. That is a fact even if when sparking out on tooling I want perfect i finish by cranking off wheel off the part and crank forward as fast as i can and take each final 2 or 3 sparkouts going front to the back
Re the balancing issue, on my SG the wheel fits directly to the shaft so there is no way to balance it off the machine or on for that matter.
Im not overly safety minded but it worries me when people wipe the chuck with their hand under a wheel, i know yours was not turning but i feel it is a bad habit to get into because one day you might forget and spinning wheels and tendons don't much like each other. I always move the chuck to one extreme to reduce the risk of contact.
You have a very valid point. I've seen it happen. I took the guy to the emergency room. Plowed a 1/4 inch deep trench 1/2 wide across three of his fingers. That's why I do very little with the wheel spinning. Tc, Mike
@@michaelmurray9154 ouch and that was my point glad im not the only one to be concerned.
balancing of wheel: when dressing an unbalanced wheel it dresses to the unbalance and the surface will be fine (if not micro inspected). but I have a surprise for you. that imbalance will toast your bearings over time except in this situation in a shop the grinder is rarely used for long hours. Wheels should in fact be balanced and left on the hub. There is no reason not to do it. People have issues with the actual balancing which can in fact be done not in seconds but in minutes. The large grinder such as his 6-18 MOST CERTAINLY those should be balanced on dedicated hubs
should that grinder be in shop situation and used constantly out of balance wheels what will occur (long after we all are dead) is that even with balancing the surface does not look right thats because bearings are shot you now have balanced wheel going all over the place
Funny thing happend we got a 10 foot bed surface grinder at work and im spose to figure it out. Itss goin just fine. Just fine. Anyone have advice?
Boy that's a big grinder!
what i will do is restart the video and comment on each thing. several things among the first start is he stones off the chuck then dresses then grinds. dress first then stone chuck. if you take a ruby stone and run it across after dressing i assure you there are hundreds of micro dings. Next is whether accuracy is needed for the item such as it will be used on mill. surface grinding is accuracy and can be done much faster to max a tenth using same method everything you do.
He does in fact make a common mistake in that he started out grinding the part upside down setting it on big surface first. on the top was the small surface about half. stone off that surface and put it down and dust off the reference surface the big surface. put the big surface down and dust off a half tenth or so on that small surface since you are there already. You are now grinding in record time to millionths.
however he is grinding dry but in cold shop. The surfaces he mentions are not flat when they reach room temp they are dished low in the middle that is why at several points you see the pin cusion effect where the wheel is hitting "on the outer ears" as he paused the heat equalized and the middle dropped down.
at several points he looks under the wheel to creep up to the surface. time is money. with wheel off put wheel off to the right and come way past down creep table into contact with wheel. raise up wheel till it slips over and rolls over the part. crank wheel to the back turn on wheel. dust across feeding a couple tenths till spark and do passes.
when he comes up to the shoulder and that lower level the same method is used. go to right bring wheel down and touch edge till wheel rolls over. raise up wheel a couple thous. crank up to shoulder going back and forth till wheel makes contact. set y zero. turn on wheel dust off sidewheeling the ledge going fast as possible and getting away from it fast. now crank wheel till spark now feed out as he correctly showed.
cross feed: he has his crossfeed wrong. he has it backwards. on that manual grinder the cross feed is done as fast as possible with his right hand spinning the wheel AT TOP SPEED. The cross feed rarely should be less than 1/4 the width of the wheel to use the entire wheel and lift it up. This exact method is used not only surface grinding but cylindrical grinding where the feed of the wheel going across should never be less than 1/4 or 1/2 the wheel width. That is why he was grinding using only the leading edge of the wheel and ended up with a tapered wheel exactly as he noted. He then fed across to use "the sharp edge" however that sharp edge is a knife edge of the taper that is why he spotted bad surface.
I was astonished to see near the end that he correctly theorized that the cupping was from the load of the wheel knocking it imperceptibly off concentric from the hub!! It is a common issue because nobody tightens the wheel enough and often the problem occurs while roughing that the wheel hits the edge of part and knocks it off and you get big dishes. However it can also occur as he stated. that as wheel loads up from improper grinding such as too small crossfeed the melted metal will start "howling" and the pressures then reach the same point to knock the wheel off concentric.
dressing with the diamond he is using is not practical anymore I turned away from it and will never return. A far better dresser are the diamond dressers they sell for bench grinders. Take off and throw away handle. Put head in small vice or holder of any kind. Use that to dress wheel you have thousands of tiny diamonds for a lifetime. I will gladly mail him a few.
I apologize but I am currently waiting on my PM forum profile to be accepted so I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask here. My company just bought a new Chevalier surface grinder and the operator hasn't been taught how to dress the grinding wheel automatically. He has been doing it manually but we know but the manual given to us only tells us that there is a program for it plus it has a diamond tip dressing point setup off to the side of the magnet. Any advise would be much appreciated, thank you.
I'm not familiar with that grinder. sorry.
I’ve always been told to leave the wheel on after you dress it otherwise you have to redress it.
If you take the wheel off the hub you have to redress. If you leave the the wheel on the hub and take the hub off the spindle you won't have to. No big deal either way if it's a just a straight dress on the bottom of the wheel. But if you can avoid having to redress a radius or a contour you can save some time.
@@michaelmurray9154 actually I got this answered since posting. Older machines can’t be trusted to start up concentric to the last time they were ran. A brand new machine should grind the same but old school guys always told me to dress every time you cut power to the spindle to get it back to dressed relative to the center of rotation.
I ask to not cuss me out instantly but wait a couple weeks or I will have to go down and delete all my comments which generally I do anyway
Lots of interesting comments/procedures…..have to look into your suggestion of the bench grinder dresser…
that wasnt so bad barely 15 minutes
in the old books they should look them up and sue their relatives for damages "those paper blotters are there not to crush wheel wheel BARELY SNUG OR YOU WILL CRUSH AND EXPLODE THE WHEEL! pure garbage. in the united states manufacturing and the world community that statement alone cause billions of dollars of loss per year when grinding. on every machinist group there is almost all the posts show the cupping and the wheels are simply loose