@@chriscormac231 Yes, but that's her sith name and i do not see her as a sith. She is much more than a dark side fanatic. Kreia is her true name. Still yes, same character.
Yes but there must always be a Darth Treia for the Galaxy is mired In deceit and treachery lest we forget that the potential to fall is within us all to fall into Chaos into Bloodshed into Oblivion.
@@StoicSurvivor99 i feel bad because I'm halfway through kotor 2 and I'm playing it for the first time but the game's been out forever and i figured she was a Sith with how she talked
To me, Revan was the greatest force user to have ever lived. Revan is the reason I got into Star Wars like I did. I had never watched Star Wars until I played Knights of the Old Republic, and then I fell in love with the series. I would love to see a KOTOR movie or TV series where we follow Revan as he is meant to be, a man who stood up when no one else would. Hopefully an HBO series (Though that seems unlikely now that Disney owns Star Wars).
@@SalvationIsInChristAlone ah the game of thrones directors are perfect. They can start the trilogy very good like kotor 1&2 and ruin the end like swtor.
@@hyphentheimpregnatoroffici369 well they only ruined got because they are shit at writing stuff themselves. Let's hope that hey take inspiration from the games and novel instead of rewriting everything
Revan also limited use of the Star Forge and instead chose to depend more on conventional forces and means of production. Various characters in KotoR 2 speculate that it was because the Star Forge drew on the power of the Dark Side and had a corrupting influence on its master. And Revan tried to unite the worlds of the Republic. One subplot in KotoR 2 was how the alliance between Republic worlds was very weak and instead of cooperating and supporting each other, they were exploiting each other. The whole reason why Telos was having so much trouble rebuilding after Malak's bombardment was that Republic worlds not affected by the war weren't willing to lend help. It's implied throughout the game that this is a major reason why the Republic did so poorly against the Mandalorians. Their worlds just abandoned their allies and focused only on their own interests. And Kreia believed that Revan's goal was to force the Republic worlds together so that they would stand together against the True Sith.
@ KingofMadCows So basically Revan's goal was to fight authoritarianism with authoritarianism. Yeah, because that works out well in the end. Had he succeeded in that endeavor, he would have ended up either becoming or creating the very kind of evil he sought to "protect" the Republic and its citizens from.
When I first played KOTOR, I went straight neutral with dual wielding red and purple lightsabers. Using both dark and light side powers for simply utility. Then I got shocked when I finally looked at official Revan artwork, I did not realize I made an accurate Revan build.
I think Revan is a light sider and a good person. He just uses the dark side in its entirety without succumbing to the hatred and rage that fuels its power. He follows his own morals, not those imposed by the Jedi or Sith.
@Samuel Dimmock The key difference between Revan and Grey Jedi is that Revan didn't embody the balance of the Force, he embodied the whole of the Force.
@Samuel Dimmock I mean if a chosen one was to be born, one of the same potential as Anakin, what would he have to do to attain the most power possible?
Adding context to Revan and his 'fall' is one of the biggest reasons why I think KOTOR 2 was one of the best-written pieces of content in the entire Star Wars franchise.
Yes, I HATE how the novel destroyed the concept of Revan deliberately embracing the dark side in order to be the necessary evil to prepare the Galaxy for the Sith Empire. Also, Darth Caedus is my 2nd favorite character. 🤘
@@butterflymage5623 yes the novel took away the idea of Revan deliberately embracing the darkside for the greater good as it were, and replaced it with "Sith Emperor Mind Controls Revan"
Sorry yo, I meant Rakata and Meetra Surik. Embarrassing to say the least, but hope you guys enjoyed the rest of the content. This one took a lot due to the new format, sometimes I make mistakes. Thanks for the support though guys, I want to do more videos like this. So please support this one. Thanks.
I liked the video but i disagree with ur alignment. It is more then just how u see yourself. Adrien veidt from the watchmen movie is a good example, he was a good guy in his mind but his actions put him on that evil scale: to him he was prob NG but his actions were more LE. I would say at Revan's start he was CG yes, in his campaign against mandalore he became LN as he became a tactical judge, making sacrifices for the needs of the many with less emotion behind it. Once he got that mask I would say he became LE, after that time he became much more ruthless instead of calculation, i dare say, giving in to his passion. But at Revan's end, I'd really say he was True Neutral. His action were based on his environment and his personal connections, he did good and bad things but kept a balance, not necessarily in the world but, in his life. He shaped the world in KOTOR more as a result of his past and less his now during that game. Revan has been all over the place, but many good characters change, from DND alumni like Raistlin or Elminster to others such as Ahsoka Tano and Darth Vader. In closing, sorry i'm a dnd nerd, and i loved the video 10/10
nerdSlayer. Nice.! I enjoy. Revan story's greatest jedi in his time but how did he die revan? I believe he both. Ligth sid and dark the light sid is stop him falling to dark sid
I.Th. how the fck is taking a legendary character and turning it into a Mary-sue -esk generic dudebro moron is making it better?!!! Are you on crack or something?!!
They retold his story and took away his value in my opinion. Within KOTOR 1 and 2, he was not one who fell but one who chose to walk a dark path for the greater good because it would be what saved everyone. Then in SWTOR it became "oh no he got brainwashed and just wanted to rule because his mind was weak to the emperor like just about everyone else".
Only other person we’ve seen on screen and art beside mace windu possess that color. If they could make a sequel where mace windu gets his own short story (maybe after Anakin cuts off his hand) or maybe when he is discussing with Jedi masters on their way to arrest the chancellor.. would be a wonderful Easter egg for the die hard fans of the old republic and the new.
It's the same thing with mace windu's lightsaber also representing his more sith like fighting style which is based around attacking and overwhelming the opponent rather than the traditional defensive and counterattack style Obi Wan and other jedi use
I also would like it stated that one of the main reasons the Jedi Council had reservations about Revan, was because he reminded them of Exar Kun. Which goes back to why the Jedi Council kept creating new Sith, it never occurred to them that they could be part of the problem. I also would argue that Revan did fall to darkside at first, not completely and not in the way Malak and other dark Jedi did. Because the Jedi do not teach their members how do deal with their own darkness. I think Revan may have started to realize the truth before the events of KoTOR. That there is no dark side and no light side, there is only the Force. All the Force wants like any other fundamental force in nature from gravity to electromagnetism is to achieve equilibrium, nothing more and nothing less. The light and dark sides come from sapients in the galaxy, its their own light or dark that influences the Force as much as the world they live in. It may be why the first Jedi/Force users were so powerful, they understood that and strove to reach balance in themselves. So the first Jedi could never fell to dark side, because they knew it was falling to darkness in themselves. It seems as much of the first Jedi's training was learning this balance emotionally as weidling the Force itself. It's why I have always been convinced that the first Jedi schism on Typhon started because of Jedi falling to the light side of the Force or at least the light within themselves. So they became zealots and fanatics who believed there way was the only way. It was only the first/earlier generation of Jedi that suppressed them/possibly reducated them in the importance of balance, but the imbalanced they caused created an over correction in others who would become first darkside Jedi, falling to the darkness in themselves. Though interia created by the light side zealots probably didn't help either, as the Force tried to restore balance. I reached a lot these thoughts after hearing Kreia say that the Jedi and Sith were the opposites of what they think of themselves. Jedi attempt to control the Force and bend it their will, and Sith/Dark Jedi are slaves to Force obeying its commands/will to reach balance, with no more will than wild animals in nature. The fact both sides claim the opposite is as much to make themselves feel better as to deny the truth. Ultimately I think Revan's goal was as ever in keeping with his Jedi teachings, to bend the Force and the galaxy to a predetermined outcome. Revan would create such imbalance of the Force with so many dark side users/Sith. That when the Sith Empire and its Emperor appeared the resulting imbalance, would make the Force overcorrect to the light. Their by weakening the darkside so much that it would become usless, not unlike what happened to the Rakkata. I also think Revan knew even if his plan ultimately failed as it did, that the effect was still the same. The surviving Republic and Jedi would be stronger and more prepared than ever before and perhaps more balanced. Which is why when true Sith Empire appeared their war against the Republic/Jedi grinded down to a stalemate. Revan made them too strong for the quick and easy victory the Sith Emperor foresaw.
Yeah, I remember there was a Jedi who realized that a lot of Sith were originally Jedi, so he went to the council and told them we should change the way we teach our apprentices, teach them about the darkside so they wouldn't fall. The council banished him for his words and he became a Sith and started killing a bunch of Jedi. I cannot remember the name of the Jedi or where I read that from.
They really did fuck up Raven's story after KOTOR 2. We should have gotten a KOTOR 3 but no, instead we got SWTOR and they made a shitty book to try and justify squeezing a popular figure like Revan in it even if it completely breaks character and makes no sense. In KOTOR 3 we were supposed to play as Revan and the exile and fight the true Sith Emperor with our old companions but instead we got an MMO that takes place 300 years after KOTOR 2 and ruined Revan's story because they needed a way to make him fit in it so it would sell more.
Speaking of TOR, since it's popularity has dwindled so much that they need only 5 servers for the whole game and subscribers have been dropping like flies for years, how much longer until we get the video Death of a Game: Star Wars The Old Republic?
this, i would have been fine with SWTOR(not really tho) if they didnt shoehorn Revan and Exile in it. They just ignored what obsidian had done in kotor 2
The Revan book was a cautionary tale that even the very inventor of a character can fall behind and misunderstood (or ignored) what made a character of what he is. Instead of having an enigmatic, machivellian genius we got bland mcdickwaffle the identity issue with the convinient excuse of brainwash. Don't mention the Exile who would've been a perfect counterpoint with her down to dirt, scarred and overall much more to human personality. I already said that once but I say it again.Revan is better the more shrouded he is in mystery.
Revan book felt a lot like Scurge book,i think EA had a under the table deal with Drew to promote the jedi character story for the game(swtor).product placement much? moreover,the character of Revan got fucked up the ass in the game lore.fuck canon,fuck disney.peace out.
Ákos Kovács you like revan because revan is nothing... it is literally blank slate which you can feel with whatever you want. This is why people are always dissapointed when they learn more about revan, you just cannot keep character vague enough to save this feeling.
Jakub Mike Revan was nothing in the first KOTOR, but in the second he was a romanticised figure. A man, myth and ideology all rolled together - spun in romantic tales to you all throughout the game through your mentor, Kreia. Revan became the Jedi that transcended dogma. He drew countless to his side and walked a path that - similar to Kreia (when completing quests or such) - the player would consistently question the underlying morality of. He challenged the established perceptions of good and evil - the entire game framing him as amazing, in spite of his deeds. Evil, in spite of good. Good, in spite of evil. It wasn't about Revan being shown to fans. It was about KOTOR 2's version of Revan defining him far too well. What kind of story can follow a hero who refuses to be bound by morality? You'd have to remove player agency in future games featuring him as the protagonist. You'd have to explain every minute detail of his rationality when making decisions in novels. It's just a lot of work. A lot of philosophy. And it has to be entertaining. KOTOR 2 makes Revan difficult to tackle.
Revan had a lot of potential even after KOTOR, but in KOTOR2 Revan was forced into a bland generic white cis dudebro who, among other things, apparently was an idiot. KOTOR2 and SWTOR did to Revan what TLJ did to Luke.
I'm sure I'm gonna regret this, but you do know that in KOTOR 2, the only thing about Revan that was defined was his personality, right? Hell, at the very beggining of the game, you can even choose if you want Revan to be referenced as a male or female, his of her *skin* wasn't mentioned even once, not even in KOTOR.
Despite your minor mistakes, I enjoyed your video. I got the same thing from the stories about Revan from KOTOR 1 and 2 and felt disappointed when his story was changed in SWTOR. A side note, they followed Revan's KOTOR story concept with Jacen Solo becoming Darth Caedus for the good of the galaxy.
Swtor ruined Revan. I love that strategically Revan when he was a Sith Lord wouldn't attack certain Planets almost like he was taking over the Republic in order to save it from "something".
KOTOR 2 made him an actual character and defined his personality and decisions through Kreaa and people that knew him. Whenever they talk about the things he did or said in KOTOR 2, they were writing out his personality, which is where nerdslayer got his analysis from, not from some garbage novel and a failed MMO story. SWTOR just threw his character development out the window and just said, oh he was mind controlled and got beat by a Strike team of rando Jedi/Sith people. It was just so poorly written probably because it has to follow the shitty book he is talking about in the video. Taking a very intriguing character and saying, all his complexity and decisions was mind control is just lazy writing instead of giving him a fitting personality and decision making process that says, oh he made this decision because he believes this.
That moment you realize that Revan was the Beta Version of Anakin. It was like the force’s way of saying “Before we officially go into this Chosen One thing, let’s experiment with it a few Millenia earlier, just to see the ramifications on the galaxy from what someone almost as powerful and prophetic as the Chosen One would bring about.”
Mindcontrolled??? BULL****! I agree with you Revan knew exactly what he was doing, so Chaotic good is a good description. As Kreia says, Revan didn't fall to the Dark side he chose it for he believed it was the best way to unite the galaxy against the true Sith.
Kreia honestly comes off as an unreliable narrator of sorts even without SWTOR to counter her. From her perspective, he had no failings whatsoever. It was more than just a teacher praising her favorite student, she idolized him. So for me, it's not really so unbelievable that she became so enamored with this idea of Revan she built up in her mind that she would try to justify literally everything he did by claiming it was all for some higher purpose. The Mandalorian Wars was certainly Revan making sacrifices for the greater good, but the Jedi Civil War is a bit harder to place. My personal belief is that Revan managed to partially break free of the Emperor's manipulations and started preparing for the day when he could overthrow his would be master, but I do believe Revan did legitimately fall to the dark side.
Agreed. That was my take as well. Kreia was so enamored of her student that she tried to rationalize his fall to the dark side. If Revan never fell, he was never truly redeemed. I think Kreia would agree with Malak that Revan's "redemption" was actually a tragic loss of identity and a "betrayal of the self." That's the main problem I have with Kreia's theory. It means Malak was right. It undermines Revan's redemption. Of course, once they'd already started trying to make Revan somehow morally ambiguous, it made sense for SWTOR to show where that philosophy of Revan's ultimately leads to. If Revan was willing to use any methods necessary to fight Vitiate, then building a droid army to exterminate the true Sith is totally in character. Trying to use both the light and dark sides doesn't work. Hence the Revanites demonstrate that. Sadly, given the direction KOTOR 2 started pushing Revan in, the shell of a man we saw in SWTOR is the inevitable result. I wish they'd just left him a redeemed Jedi, but SWTOR did a good job showing the ultimate end of Revan's philosophy.
SHADOWWOLF77 I agree with you. I think TOR MMORPG totally screwed Revans character. His decision to go to the dark side for what he saw as the greater good has such more impact than mind control. Not to mention that how Kreia describes him, enamored or not, as well as GOTOs perspective of Revan being brilliant in choosing military targets and leaving their infrastructures intact for future use makes Revan seem so much more complex than simple "mind control".
I think it would be awesome if Revan was Anakin's ancestor. Both are my favorite Star Wars characters because of just that, they are very similar, characters that embody both heroism and villany fascinate me. I think Anakin's "father" is the force, and maybe, Revan's too. Their lives are about balance, like they are sent to the galaxy by the divine, the force, to set the record straight, being both Jedi Knights and Sith Lords when they need to be.
anakin doesnt have a father... they explain that in canon. he was supposedly a convergence in the force. basically, his mom got impregnated by midichlorians.
If were to go by dnd morality jedi lawful neutral sith chaotic evil exile chaotic good revan chaotic good malak neutral evil kreia chaotic neutral jedi arent good, they were at least in both kotors willing to sacrifice countless worlds just so their students will continue to follow code, they are dogmatic and nothing more. sith on the other hand gather power but in their pursuit of power they lose themselves to it and never put it towards their goal instead wanting to gather even more power. kreia however seen both jedi and sith teachings as flawed and worked on refining them, allowing her students to gather power by any means necessary as long as there was a goal behind them, also she despised reliance on force as it was borrowed strength that could be taken away which happened both to her and to exile. But i wonder though, wtf is hanharr from kotor 2. Hes certainly lawful because he completely follows life bonds unable to break them, yet he killed his tribe so they wont become slaves which was also evil thing with good intentions. He doesnt qualify as neutral as he doesnt follow his whims.
I disagree with the idea of the sith being chaotic evil because I they are more neutral evil. each individual sith does things differently some do seek power for powers sake and others desire something more. Malak is chaotic evil he wanted to destroy both the jedi and republic and all that they stood for. I agree exile being chaotic good and jedi being lawful neutral. I disagree with Revan being chaotic good. Yeah he has a code but thing is he does things that are unarguably evil. Revan I think is more chaotic neutral he has a code but every good villain thinks he's doing things for the greater good. Kreia I think is actually chaotic evil. She wanted to kill the force. The force is a part of the laws of nature in star wars. To desire to kill something like that tells me that there is no way she is not evil.
I understand where you come from, but none of sith supports idea of following any law or code which would prerequisite for being neutral evil, instead they despise everything that limits them which is absolute opposite of lawful which would be chaotic. As for revan i meant canonical one from kotor 1 after memory loss, before memory loss chaotic neutral, using whatever works whether its saving republic or destroying it. Finally kreia, force isnt necessary to exist and ultimately ppl become slave to it, getting rid of lets say conservation of energy cant be considered in terms of morality, means to reach that goal can be to which see above one.
The sith do follow a code the sith code heck they even followed the rule of two for millenia. I'll concede on revan since you put it that way. In what way is the force not necessary to exist? It's what binds the galaxy it is in every living thing. To kill the force is to kill the galaxy. I'll concede that kreia may not be chaotic but she is evil.
Yet exile lives without the force. As for sith, sith academy and taking apprentices breaks their code. Strong are supposed to break the weak, not teach them. Sith code is followed only when it fits individual desires.
I like how you brought in the DND character breakdown...especially showing Jar Jar when you got to the Chaotic Evil because everyone knows Jar Jar is the true destructive force in Star Wars.
+ aneTix is Jar Jar Binks and his descendant Jar Jar Abrams are a worse then the Sith themselves. Since it's their ignorance who is convected into a choice that would affect millions of people into despair. One put's Palpatine into power The other one puts the Fandom into Civil War...just for the sake of money.
Ave Imperator! Productions it's okay because she, like all women, required one very specific piece of dialogue to get what she wanted and literally any other piece of dialogue led to her destruction
+Deplorable Bias Man i agree with you ! with both Kreia comment with "Darth Jesus" and this comment with "Ave Imperator! Productions" i Salute you from France. Kotor I and Kotor II are by far my favorite games. Mass effect and witcher games have similarities to them (story line)
I always understood it that Revan fell during the war, learned of the Sith from Mandalor and went to investigate and eventually confront Vitiate as Vitiate was a threat to Revan. unfortunately, Vitiate enslaved Revan's mind and dubbed him Darth Revan and sent him back to the republic. I'd like to point out that this makes sense because Vitiate's empire was the first (chronologically) to use the title of Darth. Exar Kun, the public sith lord prior to Revan who did his thing a mere 40 years prior to KOTOR and all previous Sith simply went by "Sith Lord" or "Dark Lord", never Darth. Once he returned to the Republic, Revan followed the star maps to the Star Forge and used the Star Forge's connection to the Force to break Vitiate's hold on his mind. Revan then began his war on the Jedi and the Republic so to unite it under his rule to eventually combat Vitiate and his empire. it's why he didn't approve of Malak's methods. Malak was destroying valuable resources that could be used after the war to fight Vitiate's empire. So did Revan fall? yes. it's pretty blatantly explained as such in the KOTOR games. Revan meeting Vitiate also fits the time line. Revan and Alek simply *happen* to disappear and when the return its to wage war against the Republic? Revan Reborn the novel doesn't hurt Revan's charactor at all. If anything, its just the TOR expansion that hurts him
I'm sure he will be soon enough. Maybe once Kathleen Kennedy is gone and they get someone who actually gets Star Wars on a fundamental level in-charge of Lucasfilm.
Justin Last although Bane is now canon it doesn't make Revan canon. Delta squad is canon also, but their missions are not. So all that is canon with Bane for the most part is that he exists. Or at least confirmed canon. Revan was almost made canon on several occasions and as proof that only what they show is canon, Revan was going to appear as a Sith ghost meaning he never redeemed to the light like he did in KOTOR canon.
Justin Last he's like one step away from being canon, but hasn't been himself made canon. Like making Bane canon doesn't automatically make Revan canon, unless they made Banes book canon which directly involved Revan. But so far all that is made canon about him to my knowledge is he existed, and made the rule of 2. They were going to have Revan show up as a dark side ghost at one point. Would've made him canon, but also would've made his entire story non canon from the games.
Justin Last that's more fair of a statement I suppose. I like Revan and I've been waiting for him to become officially canon, but nothing stops me from enjoying the idea of the character anyways xD
@ScionOfBalance Exactly! Who cares what they say is canon and what isn't. It just doesn't matter. What matters is what we want to be canon in our own heads, like the Clone Wars 2003 miniseries
He wasn't really mind controlled. He allowed that to stop, slow down the immortal Emperor Valkorion until the true hero came. The character from SWTOR (especially when you play as a force user).
Yeah he wasn't mind controlled past returning to the republic space, it eventually wore off if my memory serves me correctly. I guess I'm the minority, I enjoyed the revan novel.
I like this assessment of Revan. It's a great concept and we never really know why Revan did what he did. Yeah we can speculate due to KOTOR ii. But that's what made KOTOR II a great game in the fact it let the player decide who Revan was. I like TOR it has some great Revan lore in it but....the whole mind control thing by the Emperor is so cliche and makes Revan look like he was played. Course considering how the prequels played Anakin....into Palpatine's hands. I think I would have prefered Vader didn't end up being so controlled and manipulated either. What I think would have worked for Revan in the aspect of the novel and TOR is Revan saw said Sith Emperor realized he couldn't defeat him and swore to serve him and the Dark Side. Even if a little mental manipulation came into play in that move, Revan realized he had to come up with an army or stronger power to defeat the Emperor in the first place.
When I heard of "mind controlled Revan," for the first time, I thought somebody was trying to pull my leg. I was, like,"come on, guys, seriously! What happens to Raven in the book?!" And my friends would look me straight into the eyes, give a long, defeated sigh and say,"that's it, man, that's what happens." And to this day, I keep denying it, because it's just so stupid!
Interesting thought: With Disney's reluctance to add the TOR 'verse into the new canon and preference to keeping it in Legends. I wonder if it's possible that one day we'll have a "canon-remaster" of KOTOR 1 and 2 followed by a canon KOTOR 3. This would certainly allow the fans of what they did to Revan in the book and SWTOR (not to mention Meetra too :/) - because I'm sure there are fans out there, there always are - to enjoy their SWTOR story path while also giving fans of what KOTOR 2 did for the series a chance to have a "proper" sequel as it were. Well, of course this'll never happen with EA at the helm, but it's a nice hope to hang onto for 10 or so years from now.
I would so be down for that. I was actually okay with Revan in TOR. It's not what I wanted, but I also felt like it still made sense. I also wouldn't mind an official Kotor 3 though with an alternate ending for Revan and Meetra's characters that hopefully ends on a happier note for them. They have earned some peace dammit.
@@justinlacek1481 I couldn't care less if the entire squad was all female, Twi'lek, or heck, Hutt, as long as they were real characters, and not ineffectual mcwaffledicks or purity Sues. That's something modern Star Wars seems to really struggle with.
@@justinlacek1481 If it comes out and Kait is fine I doubt it's going to be much of an issue. It's putting the charater primarily for "gender equality" reasons that usually makes it suck terribly, but if it's just another character and there isn't going to be a "women are -as good as- better than men" reminder every 5 minutes very few people will actually care about it.
SangoProductions213 I used a well known source for my info, my editor chose an albeit meme worthy character map. I think the info is still accurate no?
+nerdSlayer +SanoProductions213 ^ is absolutely right. A real character doesnt act good or evil just for the sake of the perception of "good" and "evil", they act on a set of beliefs and emotions. Sometimes a characters act can be seen as good, and sometimes as evil. Instead of just staying inside in one of those boxes, we constantly jump around and sometimes we dont even jump to those boxes. For example, what would we label a serial killer who has killed innocents but just saved a child from thugs? Or just saves children in general? A serial killer who only kills innocents that doesnt have children? The DnD systems assumes everything in a straight line when in reality, it's all curvy and crosses with eachother constantly.
I'm not married to the idea it's absolute though, I never saw it that way. I believe there's far more nuance. Even within the definitions used in DND you have strong cases for contradictions. Didn't realize people saw it so black and white or if that was even it's initial intention.
There is nothing wrong with their use outside of DnD, it is a simple way to show a character's morality and beliefs ,even if it is not a detailed description or 100% accurate of the character. It is fine to use the system outside of DnD as a template, why should it me limited to the use of DnD only when it can also be applied outside of it ? The way Nerd used it was perfectly fine, he used it to give a general idea of what Revan's beliefs and personality might actually be like. I do not understand why you people are so vehemently opposed to its use.
Indeed. The reason the two-axis alignment system works for D&D is because that system relies on absolute morality. Indeed, Good, Evil, Law and Chaos aren’t just names for ideas in D&D. They are very real, actual forces that have mechanical implications in the world. In some systems, the pantheon of gods are not just the ultimate expression of those ideas, but also their sources. The Force is a much more enigmatic ... uh ... force in the universe. It’s there. It doesn’t even have a concrete definition-only approximations based on philosophy. That said, if I were a GM for a game in which Revan was a PC, he may have started CG, but he’d have been declared LE by the time Bastia faced him. It doesn’t matter if it would better his position in the war-sacrificing people and worlds would shift toward evil. And using the vice on Malachor would seal that shift. Revan fell well before he took the title Darth, SWTOR or not.
Trailer: "It's time for the Jedi to end" Holy shit they are taking philosophy lessons from KOTOR!!!!! Movie: "I will not be the last Jedi" ZZZZzzzzzzZZZZZZzzzzz... Poor Mark, may the force be with you.
You should have mentioned why "Revan" the book was so bad. Because of SWTOR's developers wanting to put Revan in the game, they made him write different things from what he had in mind for him.(i have this info from an interview with him since before the game came out, sadly i can not link you any legit video). Kind of the same thing that happened with ME3's story.
revan was like what kreia told us : looking at revan was like looking at the heart of the force, he was the heart of the force. i think that is was revan was like. he never was really good or really bad he was much more than that. that is whats makes him so great as an character because he was soo much more like real character. Revan does was is needed to be done to achieve the greater goal a real peace in the whole galaxie and a peace between light and dark.
Absolutely love how you thoroughly explained, in my opinion, the DEFINITIVE Revan. Once that horrible Revan novel and the TOR MMO came out it all completely trashed the deep philosophy behind the character.
@Justin Last He never identified as Malak inside, his name was Alek and nickname was Squint. "Malak" was a disguise for him to hide under, later then, he took the name Malak as his Sith name.
I really enjoyed this video. Revan was always my favorite character after Star Wars KOTOR and KOTOR 2. I did read the Revan book and like nerSlayer thought it was awful without any furthering Revan's character development. I haven't played Star Wars the Old Republic so I can't comment on anything that happened with Revan during that MMORPG. Thank you nerdSlayer for putting this video up though. I found Revan fascinating in his moral ambiguity and he had a real air of mystery about him from the descriptions in KOTOR 2.
Nice! Thank you for actually going in depth. A lot of videos only skim the surface, hitting all the same talking points, repeating each other. Thank you for having an actual voice.
I just want to say thank you for making this video. you have definitely given the best interpretation of Revan that I have seen on TH-cam yet. you have basically summed up everything that I feel about his character and the way they went with it in the book and the way that the book differed from the games and the vision of Revan. I played the second game before I play the first so I had the added bonus of building up this hype of revans character and then when I play the first one it was that much better finding out that you are Revan in the game. I have said again and again that they need to make a movie about the Kotor games and Revan and Meetra Surik's characters. so many people don't know about the games that are Star Wars fans. Thanks again for making this video.
Revan story is similar to the Saga story of masami kurumada's saint seiya, both were characters who believed in great power being the alternative to overcome a greater evil, even now the stories have another similarity, the fact that in the end the complexity in revan decisions were simplified in the "emperor's influence", and Saga's complexity is now explained in a "possession" of Saga by a mythical figure in the latest manga
Very interesting video! I always found Revan a fascinating character, and appreciate all the insight. I have to disagree on a few points though - believing you are right doesn't make your actions any less evil. In fact, I doubt if practically anyone considers themselves evil - they either think what they are doing is good, or at very least rationalize even the most horrific actions. Moral relativism is a particularly compelling philosophy to those who would justify evil. Whereas a belief in objective good and evil would lend itself to those who don't believe even a "small" evil (i.e. a small lie) would be justified to save the universe - either through a belief that doing good will somehow work out better than what we can see or predict, or in that it serves a higher purpose than just physical or mortal concern. So I don't see any way Revan could be considered Chaotic Good. (Although the makers of that scale may themselves come from a more relativist perspective.)
"...then everything changed when the madalorians attacked" also I gotta say, I love the memes sprinkled in with the seriousness. don't shy away from the campiness, that's half of star wars
Yeah, no. I know the writers over exaggerated what Luke, Vader and Sidious could do in the EU, but the truth is they are children compared to the old Jedi and Sith.
muiecopyright No they aren't, they take powers and abilities to the einth degree, all their feats of a single power are superior to anything Revan has. For example, Revan may use force storm, and describes it as a darkside ritual, and can only use it to take out deadly foes, and yet sidious can make a force storm into deadly lightspeed wormholes that are cited as planet busting, that he can conjure at a whim. Anakin who was a vergence in the force, the most powerful force user discovered in Galactic history got shafted to be 8/10ths of Sidious, both considered to be par during ROTS by the actual canon writers. Revan is a mere clown compared to someone like Sidious, even in Revenge of the Sith being called the most powerful sith lord up to that point. Non EU writers who had their descriptions based in some of the older writings, when Legends was canon. Luke's actual force waves in his prime could produce Golden fire in addition to achieving absoloute oness with the force. And is cited to be the most powerful Jedi at that point. He mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat even using a dueling form he inventes for his students with the help of some of his Masters. Revan is a goddamned Niman scrub. Same case with Sidious on what the writers had to say about Luke and the Jedi, he essentially became what Anakin failed to become. And if you're going to play the not canon card like every pathetic TOR wanker ive met, then that's an easy answer, TOR IS ALL LEGENDS UNTIL THE SHOVE REVAN INTO AN ACTUAL EPISODE. Not the deleted scenes from Mortis arc, not the Samurai bitchass looking Darth Bane, I mean actual solidified proof its the same tor we are talking about, which it probably wouldn't be because they want to keep to Lucas's original Vision on who is more powerful.
muiecopyright Like you are the first person ive met who doesnt have a brain on this issue, "oh no I like Revan too much, the EU writers exaggerate even though the other EU characters have feats to back up how much stronger they are."
@ PapaWill Luke's force powers resemble the powers of "The Ascendant" side of the Force from KOTFE and KOTET in SWTOR...Arcann could produce golden lightning, and at least one of his Archons could produce a field of golden flames around herself through the Force. Interesting...so many good ideas, I can work with this.
You do know that the dark side takes away your agency right? That's a big part of what makes it dangerous. Even in KotOR 1, there's a character that used to be a slave, and began to use The Force to fight slavers. As time went on, she fell to the dark side, and eventaully became a slaver herself.
The mind control bit isn't as lame as you make it out to be. Spoiler-light: he resisted it and influenced events even while influenced. It wasent so much a brainwashing but more like a command that could not be resisted. Further, Reven purposefully recognized the benefit of attacking the Republic; when he and Malak stumbled upon the old sith empire they both recognized how outclassed The Republic was militarily. Reven purposefully decived the emperor even when he was invading his mind. Reven recognized the only hope for the Republic was to buy time... So, he made the emperor think they were actually much stronger than they were. It was at this time the Emperor sent Reven and Malak to attack and weaken The Republic beforehand... But... Reven was actually using this as an oppertunity to strengthen the Republic and harden it to war. This is why Reven focused on attacking the Jedi and the military assets... While Malak wanted to level and destroy.
one major thing you missed out on was revan was mind controlled for only a brief time then broke free his attack on the republic was his choice alone. as emperor vitiate sent him to the starforge to hasten his own invasion not start one so his ideal of the greater good remains. his appreance in swotor was weaker in story telling i agree but it still made sense for me as his idea of using the foundry to wipe out the sith species for the greater good made sense to me. his actions in shadow of revan also make sense to me as that was not the true revan but a broken husk the true whole revan died at the foundry. so i dont see the conflict of his character story his mind control caused for you as he was himself when he started the jedi civil war so his motiives where his own.
if your are going to apply the D&D system, your argument makes Revan CHAOTIC NEUTRAL not "good", and personally, i think neutral or maybe even lawful evil would be his proper alignment. a chaotic good or any "good" character still has a "moral compass" (lines they will not cross) and are thrown into a moral quandary when they are at odds with this "code" which was never the case with Revan. it is an attribute of the neutral/lawful alignments (LG, NG, LN, TN, NE, LE) to selflessly/quasi-selflessly justify actions "for the greater good". while i agree in the end (of KOTOR 1) Revan is possibly a CG character (and perhaps even initially), while he was a Sith lord he defiantly was not CG.
I wish you did more decoded videos. I love your death of a game series, but I loved your character analysis videos because they helped share a lot of nuanced characters and stories to people who may have not played that game before.
He wore the mask because when he picked it up, he saw the female mandalorian pleade for a stop to the massacre. Him wearing the mask was his way of honoring her sacrifice
Unpopular opinion but I actually loved the Revan book. I don't mind the fact that he got brainwashed by the emperor because to me it made sense. It also doesn't write off what Kreia said in a lot of ways. I think Revan was brainwashed to attack the republic, but used what subconscious control he had to force the republic to unite so it would be strong enough to face the empire. In my eyes it would be hard to accept that Revan chose to do the awful things he did simply because he wanted to take over the republic to defeat the emperor make him the same thing. It's not morally grey to slaughter all those people and become an emperor with a tyrannical rule so that way he could then defeat a tyrannical emperor himself; that's just stupid. Not to mention if Revan is as powerful as he is then there's no way he would ever lose to the empire and to Malak of all people. The man was a master strategist and an unstoppable warrior. The only reason I can think of for how he let himself become captured is because subconsciously while he was being controlled by the emperor he knew that if he was captured then he could regain his freedom and take the fight back to the emperor. A master strategist the whole way. He was able to strategies his "defeat" so that way he could actually win which sounds just like a Revan thing to do. Revan is by far my favorite character in all of star wars and I hope that with the appearance of a grey jedi in the new star wars cartoon that maybe we can finally get some Revanite philosophies.
often see myself as chaotic neutral really. But I also relate a lot to Revan. He makes necessary sacrifices as I would myself. Revan actually inspires me and I dunno about all of you, but him as a character feels alive in spite of being a storybook character who isn't even cannon anymore.
After playing through KOTOR 1 and 2 i interpreted it that Revan NEVER fell to the dark side, he chose to become "Darth Revan" because he believed that the republic and the Jedi would never be able to fend of the "true sith empire". Which is why Goto said that Revan seemed to be fighting to take over the republic, while Malak was fighting to destroy it. Revan left industrial complexes intact, while Malak destroyed it. Revan never intended to use the Star forge for more than needed, because he knew it would corrupt him since it was fueled by the dark side. His intention was to stop using the Star forge after they had won and go over to use the republics ships and military industrial complex instead. Malak however fell to the dark side. He was corrpted, maybe he wouldn't have if Revan had explained to him what they where actually doing in the begining. Sure it's retconned that Vitiate wiped their memories and manipulated them into becoming Siths etc later, but when Kotor 1 and 2 came out that didn't exist yet.
I personally liked the Revan novel. As did many. I believe some your complaints can be retorted with the fact they were rushing Drew to finish the book. Instead of taking his time to flesh out the story, like the Darth Bane Trilogy. As the novel would go along side with the Swtor MMO.
Very well done, I enjoyed that very much. Revan is my favorite Star Wars character by far, I pray Disney doesn't prove so foolish as to not use this Amazing character for a future project, and I hope they have enough respect for the character to not butcher who he was, and what he stood for.
What we do know about Revan's personality is that he had a great sense of humor. The best example is he created, and programmed HK-47 to call his second in command a "meatbag", and all other organics.
All right. I really like your channel and your previous videos so I hope you can believe that when I criticise you it's coming a very positive place. But I have serious issues with this video. I'm gonna start with some positive feedback, because that is very important as well: The editing is vastly improved over previous videos and you made it a big point to explain why you included certain media in your analysis while discarding others. This is very important and you found a way to make very clear that the material you disregarded changed the character significantly in a clunky retcon. Good job on that front. Now the big issue, I feel, is the part where you decide to base a big chunk of your character analysis on the DnD alignment system. The words "serious character analysis" and "DnD alignment system" shouldn't even be part of the same thought process. The DnD alignment system is not a tool for understanding characters in non-DnD fiction. It was never intended as such and it's not very useful as such. It's a construct of game mechanics tied into a number of specific settings' objective, cosmic morality. Characters in DnD are judged and categorised in this manner because some of the mechanics (like spells and class prerequisites) require it. The settings are structured in a way that this objective morality system does actually have a place for all its characters in it. Now I probably don't need to point out that real people don't fit into the alignment system. They have complex ideas and ideologies that defy simple categorisation as chaotic and lawful or good and evil. And since art imitates reality, a lot of characters in fiction - well-written characters in particular - also do not fit into the alignment system. They may have political ideals that fall straight into chaotic territory while conducting themselves personally according to a strict moral code even when the outcome of following that code are difficult for them to bear and make their goals harder to achieve. Any significantly complex fictional character will, in fact, defy categorisation in the Alignment chart. So when you say that finding Revan's place on the chart is difficult, that isn't really a point for the character, it's a point against your chosen tool for character analysis. The Alignment System is a shallow categorisation based on a simplified understanding of morality that was designed to mechanically differentiate characters in a roleplaying game. Applying it to any other piece of fiction is missing the point. So in conclusion, you basically invented a test for lack of character depth. If a fictional character can be easily sorted into the DnD alignment system, that's a sign that you might want to give them more depth and explore them more. If you cannot sort them in this manner, that's still not a sign that the character is 3-dimensional, it just means that they're at least as deep a character as a space wizard from a video game. We can call it the nerdSlayer test. Don't get me wrong, I really dig Revan as a character and I agree that he's super interesting and pretty complex for a video game. But by basing part of your Analysis on a DnD alignment you're doing your argument a disservice. Hope this gives you something to think about to make future videos even better.
Nichtschwert Feather so you think tools such as simple classifications of a games morality system are unhelpful in communicating motive or morality? I couldn't possibly more disagree.
This is quite possibly the worst argument I have ever heard. The very idea that by using a common term of reference from DnD many people know, to better show the morality of a character, somehow makes this entire video basically worthless is patently absurd. I don't think I've ever seen someone fixate on a single moot point and use it to attempt a complete disservice to an entire essay. Setting someone on a morality system doesn't mean they are SOLELY tied to that morality system, it's used simply as a frame of reference. Also I don't know if you think you're being funny, but coming up with the term "The nerdSlayer test" to describe what you've decided is a negative and poorly thought out idea, comes across as disingenuous in your intentions and just makes you look like a snarky dick. "Hope this gives you something to think about to make future videos even better" Yes, by not listening to your terrible, terrible advice.
All right, please calm down. At no point did I say the entire video is worthless, nor did I mean to imply that. I just think it's serious flaw in an otherwise well-made and well-thought-out video essay. I disagree that the aligment system is particularly helpful to give people a feel for a character, because the different alignments are so very, very rough and ill-defined. WHat each alingment means and who would embody it is such a hotly discussed topic at gaming tables, because these things are so extremely subjective. If you google for it, you'll quickly find an alignment chart that has Batman in every single alignment box on the chart accompanied by a quote that fits that alignment nicely. I think it nicely portrays the inherent problems I tried to convey, as a suitably complex character can be ctageorised as widely different alignments by different people. And yes, I did intend to be funny. I'm sorry if it came across as snarky and arrogant. I should have left that part out.
All right. Thanks for reacting to my criticism. You are of course free to apply and disregard it at your own discretion. Also I hope my ill-conceived "nerdSlayer test" joke didn't come across as too snarky. And if it did, I'm honestly sorry. And I probably should have ended that comment with "Thanks for all your hard work." instead.
Karpyshyn's answer of mind control just render's Revan's force shield from any manipulation. Karpyshyn ignores Revan's characteristics, abilities, moral ground and as a tactician. If I wrote that... Revan's use of force shield from any forces would have given Revan a chance to strategically pretend to have his mind wipe in order to get closer to his goal to which would be a tactical move on Revan's part; therefore, help the Jedi order win or at least equal the battle on both side bringing a balance within the force; whereas, he was winning against the Republic and realized this balance in the universe was wrong and had to look for an opportunity to side with the Republic...so, he had Bastilla get the best of him and tactically have his mind wiped (not really when it comes to his force shielding) and act or pretend to have a beginner's mind.
Yeah... SWTOR Revan was complete ass. It disappoints me that they would draw from that well and so poorly. It's a shame that the game dropped all of what made the Kotor games good and made such a generic game and an even more generic villain out of Revan.
I hated the book as well it really pissed me off and as far as swtor shadow of revan expanshion is also so messed up I hated it they need to quit screwing up my childhood first with the sequals and now with changing the game canon like kotor 1&2 changed by swtor and with screwing up the battlefront games
Stopped at 14:30, was curious the whole time in where this video was going but as soon as you said you don't even want to talk about Revan's....(story) in TOR....I was relieved. Someone else that feels the same. Dude they didn't even get the outfit correct twice in TOR not to mention how COMPLETELY screwed up they did the first one. (Completely incorrect skirt, no footwear, bugged hood.....no...Cape...) N.S. - Thank you man.
I approve of this video
Omg its him
@@cosminBig1 hello
Greetings, Darth Revan.
@@darthvader5229 hm...and you are?..
i hope you have fun with your remake
"Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force" - Darth Traya
Kreia.
same thing
@@chriscormac231 Yes, but that's her sith name and i do not see her as a sith. She is much more than a dark side fanatic. Kreia is her true name. Still yes, same character.
Yes but there must always be a Darth Treia for the Galaxy is mired In deceit and treachery lest we forget that the potential to fall is within us all to fall into Chaos into Bloodshed into Oblivion.
@@StoicSurvivor99 i feel bad because I'm halfway through kotor 2 and I'm playing it for the first time but the game's been out forever and i figured she was a Sith with how she talked
To me, Revan was the greatest force user to have ever lived. Revan is the reason I got into Star Wars like I did. I had never watched Star Wars until I played Knights of the Old Republic, and then I fell in love with the series. I would love to see a KOTOR movie or TV series where we follow Revan as he is meant to be, a man who stood up when no one else would. Hopefully an HBO series (Though that seems unlikely now that Disney owns Star Wars).
Game of thrones directors are working on a new unnamed trilogy :)
Slow down there bud
Silentcrypt What was your character like? Mine was scoundrel /Guardian.
@@SalvationIsInChristAlone ah the game of thrones directors are perfect. They can start the trilogy very good like kotor 1&2 and ruin the end like swtor.
@@hyphentheimpregnatoroffici369 well they only ruined got because they are shit at writing stuff themselves. Let's hope that hey take inspiration from the games and novel instead of rewriting everything
Revan also limited use of the Star Forge and instead chose to depend more on conventional forces and means of production. Various characters in KotoR 2 speculate that it was because the Star Forge drew on the power of the Dark Side and had a corrupting influence on its master.
And Revan tried to unite the worlds of the Republic. One subplot in KotoR 2 was how the alliance between Republic worlds was very weak and instead of cooperating and supporting each other, they were exploiting each other. The whole reason why Telos was having so much trouble rebuilding after Malak's bombardment was that Republic worlds not affected by the war weren't willing to lend help. It's implied throughout the game that this is a major reason why the Republic did so poorly against the Mandalorians. Their worlds just abandoned their allies and focused only on their own interests. And Kreia believed that Revan's goal was to force the Republic worlds together so that they would stand together against the True Sith.
KingOfMadCows thought he was also like mind control or corrupted by the emperor.
Forrest Tilghman That shit doesn't count. Nobody should take the novel or SWTOR canon.
@ KingofMadCows So basically Revan's goal was to fight authoritarianism with authoritarianism. Yeah, because that works out well in the end. Had he succeeded in that endeavor, he would have ended up either becoming or creating the very kind of evil he sought to "protect" the Republic and its citizens from.
So, the way we handle things now.
Forrest Tilghman he was, but he was able to partly free himself.
5:43 "No one cared who I was until I put on the mask."
If I pull it off... would he die?
''If you're nothing without a mask, then you should't have it''.
Joker It would be extremely painful.
@@ieatmyveggiez5029 he's a sith guy
Joker For you
It's such a shame we never got KOTOR 3.
We did get Mass Effect tho
We don't want to accept it, but SWTOR is Kotor 3.
暗いRave No
Swtor Jedi Knight story is as close as we can get.
@@atrocious7766
... I reject SWTOR...
Just like I reject the newest movie...
... Start over
When I first played KOTOR, I went straight neutral with dual wielding red and purple lightsabers. Using both dark and light side powers for simply utility. Then I got shocked when I finally looked at official Revan artwork, I did not realize I made an accurate Revan build.
I am still working on my first play through. Doing the same lightsaber style and trying to stay in the grey. Not exactly easy.
I think Revan is a light sider and a good person. He just uses the dark side in its entirety without succumbing to the hatred and rage that fuels its power. He follows his own morals, not those imposed by the Jedi or Sith.
@Samuel Dimmock The key difference between Revan and Grey Jedi is that Revan didn't embody the balance of the Force, he embodied the whole of the Force.
@Samuel Dimmock What do you think the most powerful possible force user would look like?
@Samuel Dimmock I mean if a chosen one was to be born, one of the same potential as Anakin, what would he have to do to attain the most power possible?
Adding context to Revan and his 'fall' is one of the biggest reasons why I think KOTOR 2 was one of the best-written pieces of content in the entire Star Wars franchise.
Well said. KOTOR 2 is the GOAT
Yes, I HATE how the novel destroyed the concept of Revan deliberately embracing the dark side in order to be the necessary evil to prepare the Galaxy for the Sith Empire. Also, Darth Caedus is my 2nd favorite character. 🤘
@@joeschook792 they took that away?
@@butterflymage5623 yes the novel took away the idea of Revan deliberately embracing the darkside for the greater good as it were, and replaced it with "Sith Emperor Mind Controls Revan"
@silver3981 I agree. The first KOTOR game was the best (Star Wars) thing Karpyshyn ever wrote, and even that was blown out of the water by KOTOR2.
Sorry yo, I meant Rakata and Meetra Surik. Embarrassing to say the least, but hope you guys enjoyed the rest of the content. This one took a lot due to the new format, sometimes I make mistakes. Thanks for the support though guys, I want to do more videos like this. So please support this one. Thanks.
nerdSlayer Revan is a good character to talk about. He's probably one of my favorite SWEU characters.
pls make Revan Cannon.
Oh what if snoke in the last jedi is that evil emperor, revan was after that would be so cool. Revan could come back. I could be wrong.
I liked the video but i disagree with ur alignment. It is more then just how u see yourself. Adrien veidt from the watchmen movie is a good example, he was a good guy in his mind but his actions put him on that evil scale: to him he was prob NG but his actions were more LE. I would say at Revan's start he was CG yes, in his campaign against mandalore he became LN as he became a tactical judge, making sacrifices for the needs of the many with less emotion behind it. Once he got that mask I would say he became LE, after that time he became much more ruthless instead of calculation, i dare say, giving in to his passion. But at Revan's end, I'd really say he was True Neutral. His action were based on his environment and his personal connections, he did good and bad things but kept a balance, not necessarily in the world but, in his life. He shaped the world in KOTOR more as a result of his past and less his now during that game. Revan has been all over the place, but many good characters change, from DND alumni like Raistlin or Elminster to others such as Ahsoka Tano and Darth Vader.
In closing, sorry i'm a dnd nerd, and i loved the video 10/10
nerdSlayer. Nice.! I enjoy. Revan story's greatest jedi in his time but how did he die revan? I believe he both. Ligth sid and dark the light sid is stop him falling to dark sid
Galaxy needs new single player Star Wars RPG. What I wouldn't give if we would get proper kotor sequel.
We almost got one. But then EA shut that down. The rest is history.
I was looking forward to that too. I hate EA
Your prayers have been answered.
Islam Ahmed
Huh? What? How?!
@@thalmoragent9344 It comes out in November
Funny how revan was known as "the butcher" because that's what they did to his character after kotor 2
SWTOR fanboy detected. Set phaser to "Reality"
I.Th. how the fck is taking a legendary character and turning it into a Mary-sue -esk generic dudebro moron is making it better?!!! Are you on crack or something?!!
LOL true
@@Koranthus LOL only Trekkies get this.
They retold his story and took away his value in my opinion.
Within KOTOR 1 and 2, he was not one who fell but one who chose to walk a dark path for the greater good because it would be what saved everyone.
Then in SWTOR it became "oh no he got brainwashed and just wanted to rule because his mind was weak to the emperor like just about everyone else".
"Everything changed when the Mandalorians attacked."
I see what you did there.
Revan's lightsaber being violet in color represents the balance between the light side (blue) and dark side (red) of the Force that he embodied
Only other person we’ve seen on screen and art beside mace windu possess that color. If they could make a sequel where mace windu gets his own short story (maybe after Anakin cuts off his hand) or maybe when he is discussing with Jedi masters on their way to arrest the chancellor.. would be a wonderful Easter egg for the die hard fans of the old republic and the new.
Its basically where the lore for purple lightsabers came from
Yellow: Am I a joke to you?
It's the same thing with mace windu's lightsaber also representing his more sith like fighting style which is based around attacking and overwhelming the opponent rather than the traditional defensive and counterattack style Obi Wan and other jedi use
@@eyedunno8462 yellow is for the Jedi Temple Guard.
I also would like it stated that one of the main reasons the Jedi Council had reservations about Revan, was because he reminded them of Exar Kun. Which goes back to why the Jedi Council kept creating new Sith, it never occurred to them that they could be part of the problem. I also would argue that Revan did fall to darkside at first, not completely and not in the way Malak and other dark Jedi did. Because the Jedi do not teach their members how do deal with their own darkness. I think Revan may have started to realize the truth before the events of KoTOR. That there is no dark side and no light side, there is only the Force. All the Force wants like any other fundamental force in nature from gravity to electromagnetism is to achieve equilibrium, nothing more and nothing less. The light and dark sides come from sapients in the galaxy, its their own light or dark that influences the Force as much as the world they live in. It may be why the first Jedi/Force users were so powerful, they understood that and strove to reach balance in themselves. So the first Jedi could never fell to dark side, because they knew it was falling to darkness in themselves. It seems as much of the first Jedi's training was learning this balance emotionally as weidling the Force itself. It's why I have always been convinced that the first Jedi schism on Typhon started because of Jedi falling to the light side of the Force or at least the light within themselves. So they became zealots and fanatics who believed there way was the only way. It was only the first/earlier generation of Jedi that suppressed them/possibly reducated them in the importance of balance, but the imbalanced they caused created an over correction in others who would become first darkside Jedi, falling to the darkness in themselves. Though interia created by the light side zealots probably didn't help either, as the Force tried to restore balance. I reached a lot these thoughts after hearing Kreia say that the Jedi and Sith were the opposites of what they think of themselves. Jedi attempt to control the Force and bend it their will, and Sith/Dark Jedi are slaves to Force obeying its commands/will to reach balance, with no more will than wild animals in nature. The fact both sides claim the opposite is as much to make themselves feel better as to deny the truth. Ultimately I think Revan's goal was as ever in keeping with his Jedi teachings, to bend the Force and the galaxy to a predetermined outcome. Revan would create such imbalance of the Force with so many dark side users/Sith. That when the Sith Empire and its Emperor appeared the resulting imbalance, would make the Force overcorrect to the light. Their by weakening the darkside so much that it would become usless, not unlike what happened to the Rakkata. I also think Revan knew even if his plan ultimately failed as it did, that the effect was still the same. The surviving Republic and Jedi would be stronger and more prepared than ever before and perhaps more balanced. Which is why when true Sith Empire appeared their war against the Republic/Jedi grinded down to a stalemate. Revan made them too strong for the quick and easy victory the Sith Emperor foresaw.
I personally blame Odan-Urr for making the Jedi code that exasperated the problem.
Awesome comment
Damn good
Yeah, I remember there was a Jedi who realized that a lot of Sith were originally Jedi, so he went to the council and told them we should change the way we teach our apprentices, teach them about the darkside so they wouldn't fall. The council banished him for his words and he became a Sith and started killing a bunch of Jedi. I cannot remember the name of the Jedi or where I read that from.
Exar Kun?
They really did fuck up Raven's story after KOTOR 2. We should have gotten a KOTOR 3 but no, instead we got SWTOR and they made a shitty book to try and justify squeezing a popular figure like Revan in it even if it completely breaks character and makes no sense. In KOTOR 3 we were supposed to play as Revan and the exile and fight the true Sith Emperor with our old companions but instead we got an MMO that takes place 300 years after KOTOR 2 and ruined Revan's story because they needed a way to make him fit in it so it would sell more.
And not be as powerful as they were building him up to be so he didn't win the engagement.
The Phantom Fiddler eh I'm still glad my Mandalorian bounty hunter took him out
Speaking of TOR, since it's popularity has dwindled so much that they need only 5 servers for the whole game and subscribers have been dropping like flies for years, how much longer until we get the video Death of a Game: Star Wars The Old Republic?
this, i would have been fine with SWTOR(not really tho) if they didnt shoehorn Revan and Exile in it. They just ignored what obsidian had done in kotor 2
Honestly they did not even need to put Revan in SWTOR. They could have made KOTOR 3 and still make the MMO but they got greedy with it.
The Revan book was a cautionary tale that even the very inventor of a character can fall behind and misunderstood (or ignored) what made a character of what he is.
Instead of having an enigmatic, machivellian genius we got bland mcdickwaffle the identity issue with the convinient excuse of brainwash.
Don't mention the Exile who would've been a perfect counterpoint with her down to dirt, scarred and overall much more to human personality.
I already said that once but I say it again.Revan is better the more shrouded he is in mystery.
Revan book felt a lot like Scurge book,i think EA had a under the table deal with Drew to promote the jedi character story for the game(swtor).product placement much? moreover,the character of Revan got fucked up the ass in the game lore.fuck canon,fuck disney.peace out.
Ákos Kovács you like revan because revan is nothing... it is literally blank slate which you can feel with whatever you want. This is why people are always dissapointed when they learn more about revan, you just cannot keep character vague enough to save this feeling.
Jakub Mike Revan was nothing in the first KOTOR, but in the second he was a romanticised figure. A man, myth and ideology all rolled together - spun in romantic tales to you all throughout the game through your mentor, Kreia.
Revan became the Jedi that transcended dogma. He drew countless to his side and walked a path that - similar to Kreia (when completing quests or such) - the player would consistently question the underlying morality of.
He challenged the established perceptions of good and evil - the entire game framing him as amazing, in spite of his deeds. Evil, in spite of good. Good, in spite of evil.
It wasn't about Revan being shown to fans. It was about KOTOR 2's version of Revan defining him far too well. What kind of story can follow a hero who refuses to be bound by morality? You'd have to remove player agency in future games featuring him as the protagonist. You'd have to explain every minute detail of his rationality when making decisions in novels.
It's just a lot of work. A lot of philosophy. And it has to be entertaining.
KOTOR 2 makes Revan difficult to tackle.
Revan had a lot of potential even after KOTOR, but in KOTOR2 Revan was forced into a bland generic white cis dudebro who, among other things, apparently was an idiot. KOTOR2 and SWTOR did to Revan what TLJ did to Luke.
I'm sure I'm gonna regret this, but you do know that in KOTOR 2, the only thing about Revan that was defined was his personality, right? Hell, at the very beggining of the game, you can even choose if you want Revan to be referenced as a male or female, his of her *skin* wasn't mentioned even once, not even in KOTOR.
Despite your minor mistakes, I enjoyed your video. I got the same thing from the stories about Revan from KOTOR 1 and 2 and felt disappointed when his story was changed in SWTOR. A side note, they followed Revan's KOTOR story concept with Jacen Solo becoming Darth Caedus for the good of the galaxy.
@@aarongarza4769 Calling them "Rataka" in stead of their correct name "Rakata" is one of the mistakes I noticed.
Swtor ruined Revan. I love that strategically Revan when he was a Sith Lord wouldn't attack certain Planets almost like he was taking over the Republic in order to save it from "something".
KOTOR 2 made him an actual character and defined his personality and decisions through Kreaa and people that knew him. Whenever they talk about the things he did or said in KOTOR 2, they were writing out his personality, which is where nerdslayer got his analysis from, not from some garbage novel and a failed MMO story. SWTOR just threw his character development out the window and just said, oh he was mind controlled and got beat by a Strike team of rando Jedi/Sith people. It was just so poorly written probably because it has to follow the shitty book he is talking about in the video. Taking a very intriguing character and saying, all his complexity and decisions was mind control is just lazy writing instead of giving him a fitting personality and decision making process that says, oh he made this decision because he believes this.
how did Kotor2 ruin revan when it just recites what he did in KOTOR1 and pre Kotor events?
They made Revan a psychotic annoying tyrant.
ItsMichaelReid SWTOR isnt canon anyway.
ItsMichaelReid kotor > SWTOR
That moment you realize that Revan was the Beta Version of Anakin.
It was like the force’s way of saying “Before we officially go into this Chosen One thing, let’s experiment with it a few Millenia earlier, just to see the ramifications on the galaxy from what someone almost as powerful and prophetic as the Chosen One would bring about.”
Mindcontrolled???
BULL****!
I agree with you Revan knew exactly what he was doing, so Chaotic good is a good description.
As Kreia says, Revan didn't fall to the Dark side he chose it for he believed it was the best way to unite the galaxy against the true Sith.
Kreia honestly comes off as an unreliable narrator of sorts even without SWTOR to counter her. From her perspective, he had no failings whatsoever. It was more than just a teacher praising her favorite student, she idolized him. So for me, it's not really so unbelievable that she became so enamored with this idea of Revan she built up in her mind that she would try to justify literally everything he did by claiming it was all for some higher purpose. The Mandalorian Wars was certainly Revan making sacrifices for the greater good, but the Jedi Civil War is a bit harder to place. My personal belief is that Revan managed to partially break free of the Emperor's manipulations and started preparing for the day when he could overthrow his would be master, but I do believe Revan did legitimately fall to the dark side.
Agreed. That was my take as well. Kreia was so enamored of her student that she tried to rationalize his fall to the dark side. If Revan never fell, he was never truly redeemed. I think Kreia would agree with Malak that Revan's "redemption" was actually a tragic loss of identity and a "betrayal of the self." That's the main problem I have with Kreia's theory. It means Malak was right. It undermines Revan's redemption.
Of course, once they'd already started trying to make Revan somehow morally ambiguous, it made sense for SWTOR to show where that philosophy of Revan's ultimately leads to. If Revan was willing to use any methods necessary to fight Vitiate, then building a droid army to exterminate the true Sith is totally in character. Trying to use both the light and dark sides doesn't work. Hence the Revanites demonstrate that. Sadly, given the direction KOTOR 2 started pushing Revan in, the shell of a man we saw in SWTOR is the inevitable result. I wish they'd just left him a redeemed Jedi, but SWTOR did a good job showing the ultimate end of Revan's philosophy.
SHADOWWOLF77 I agree with you. I think TOR MMORPG totally screwed Revans character. His decision to go to the dark side for what he saw as the greater good has such more impact than mind control. Not to mention that how Kreia describes him, enamored or not, as well as GOTOs perspective of Revan being brilliant in choosing military targets and leaving their infrastructures intact for future use makes Revan seem so much more complex than simple "mind control".
Yeah, that mind controlled comment is incorrect. Way off...
Revan and Anakin are similar in many ways.
Including their quest for greater power...
Joker do you think Anakin is Revan's Descendent? And what do you think about Sharad Hett is Anakin's father?
I think it would be awesome if Revan was Anakin's ancestor. Both are my favorite Star Wars characters because of just that, they are very similar, characters that embody both heroism and villany fascinate me.
I think Anakin's "father" is the force, and maybe, Revan's too. Their lives are about balance, like they are sent to the galaxy by the divine, the force, to set the record straight, being both Jedi Knights and Sith Lords when they need to be.
Yeah and add into the reason why the Conciel didn't like Anakin and why they feared him.
anakin doesnt have a father... they explain that in canon. he was supposedly a convergence in the force. basically, his mom got impregnated by midichlorians.
If were to go by dnd morality
jedi lawful neutral
sith chaotic evil
exile chaotic good
revan chaotic good
malak neutral evil
kreia chaotic neutral
jedi arent good, they were at least in both kotors willing to sacrifice countless worlds just so their students will continue to follow code, they are dogmatic and nothing more.
sith on the other hand gather power but in their pursuit of power they lose themselves to it and never put it towards their goal instead wanting to gather even more power.
kreia however seen both jedi and sith teachings as flawed and worked on refining them, allowing her students to gather power by any means necessary as long as there was a goal behind them, also she despised reliance on force as it was borrowed strength that could be taken away which happened both to her and to exile.
But i wonder though, wtf is hanharr from kotor 2.
Hes certainly lawful because he completely follows life bonds unable to break them, yet he killed his tribe so they wont become slaves which was also evil thing with good intentions. He doesnt qualify as neutral as he doesnt follow his whims.
Hanharr is lawful evil. He is decidedly an evil person..but he has a personal code he feels compelled to obey
I disagree with the idea of the sith being chaotic evil because I they are more neutral evil. each individual sith does things differently some do seek power for powers sake and others desire something more. Malak is chaotic evil he wanted to destroy both the jedi and republic and all that they stood for. I agree exile being chaotic good and jedi being lawful neutral. I disagree with Revan being chaotic good. Yeah he has a code but thing is he does things that are unarguably evil. Revan I think is more chaotic neutral he has a code but every good villain thinks he's doing things for the greater good. Kreia I think is actually chaotic evil. She wanted to kill the force. The force is a part of the laws of nature in star wars. To desire to kill something like that tells me that there is no way she is not evil.
I understand where you come from, but none of sith supports idea of following any law or code which would prerequisite for being neutral evil, instead they despise everything that limits them which is absolute opposite of lawful which would be chaotic.
As for revan i meant canonical one from kotor 1 after memory loss, before memory loss chaotic neutral, using whatever works whether its saving republic or destroying it.
Finally kreia, force isnt necessary to exist and ultimately ppl become slave to it, getting rid of lets say conservation of energy cant be considered in terms of morality, means to reach that goal can be to which see above one.
The sith do follow a code the sith code heck they even followed the rule of two for millenia. I'll concede on revan since you put it that way. In what way is the force not necessary to exist? It's what binds the galaxy it is in every living thing. To kill the force is to kill the galaxy. I'll concede that kreia may not be chaotic but she is evil.
Yet exile lives without the force.
As for sith, sith academy and taking apprentices breaks their code. Strong are supposed to break the weak, not teach them.
Sith code is followed only when it fits individual desires.
I guess it’s good that Disney made Revans stories non canon, maybe they can do right by it. Revamp was my fav character of all SW
Don't get your hopes up Weakling
Ezra's the worst star wars character created. I like reylo wey better
@@Loriddian Dude....Ezra is my name...
@@EzraRomanov cool story
I appreciate that someone in the star wars community isn't negative / toxic
I like how you brought in the DND character breakdown...especially showing Jar Jar when you got to the Chaotic Evil because everyone knows Jar Jar is the true destructive force in Star Wars.
+ aneTix is
Jar Jar Binks and his descendant Jar Jar Abrams are a worse then the Sith themselves.
Since it's their ignorance who is convected into a choice that would affect millions of people into despair.
One put's Palpatine into power
The other one puts the Fandom into Civil War...just for the sake of money.
"You will forever stand alone"
until you have nine people standing with you
well I always killed the cat lady on accident, but still
Ave Imperator! Productions it's okay because she, like all women, required one very specific piece of dialogue to get what she wanted and literally any other piece of dialogue led to her destruction
+Deplorable Bias
Man i agree with you !
with both Kreia comment with "Darth Jesus"
and this comment with "Ave Imperator! Productions"
i Salute you from France.
Kotor I and Kotor II are by far my favorite games.
Mass effect and witcher games have similarities to them (story line)
I always understood it that Revan fell during the war, learned of the Sith from Mandalor and went to investigate and eventually confront Vitiate as Vitiate was a threat to Revan.
unfortunately, Vitiate enslaved Revan's mind and dubbed him Darth Revan and sent him back to the republic.
I'd like to point out that this makes sense because Vitiate's empire was the first (chronologically) to use the title of Darth. Exar Kun, the public sith lord prior to Revan who did his thing a mere 40 years prior to KOTOR and all previous Sith simply went by "Sith Lord" or "Dark Lord", never Darth.
Once he returned to the Republic, Revan followed the star maps to the Star Forge and used the Star Forge's connection to the Force to break Vitiate's hold on his mind. Revan then began his war on the Jedi and the Republic so to unite it under his rule to eventually combat Vitiate and his empire.
it's why he didn't approve of Malak's methods. Malak was destroying valuable resources that could be used after the war to fight Vitiate's empire.
So did Revan fall? yes. it's pretty blatantly explained as such in the KOTOR games.
Revan meeting Vitiate also fits the time line. Revan and Alek simply *happen* to disappear and when the return its to wage war against the Republic?
Revan Reborn the novel doesn't hurt Revan's charactor at all. If anything, its just the TOR expansion that hurts him
Corrupt Angel I like this headcanon. And it makes sense. I still don’t think the TOR part hurts tho
Corrupt Angel there really were no Darths before Revan and Malak? At least that the Republic had seen?
Corrupt Angel That's literally what's canonically stated in the novel. I think the guy who made this video just misunderstood the book.
Make Revan canon.
I'm sure he will be soon enough. Maybe once Kathleen Kennedy is gone and they get someone who actually gets Star Wars on a fundamental level in-charge of Lucasfilm.
Justin Last although Bane is now canon it doesn't make Revan canon. Delta squad is canon also, but their missions are not.
So all that is canon with Bane for the most part is that he exists. Or at least confirmed canon.
Revan was almost made canon on several occasions and as proof that only what they show is canon, Revan was going to appear as a Sith ghost meaning he never redeemed to the light like he did in KOTOR canon.
Justin Last he's like one step away from being canon, but hasn't been himself made canon.
Like making Bane canon doesn't automatically make Revan canon, unless they made Banes book canon which directly involved Revan. But so far all that is made canon about him to my knowledge is he existed, and made the rule of 2.
They were going to have Revan show up as a dark side ghost at one point. Would've made him canon, but also would've made his entire story non canon from the games.
Justin Last that's more fair of a statement I suppose.
I like Revan and I've been waiting for him to become officially canon, but nothing stops me from enjoying the idea of the character anyways xD
@ScionOfBalance Exactly! Who cares what they say is canon and what isn't. It just doesn't matter. What matters is what we want to be canon in our own heads, like the Clone Wars 2003 miniseries
Good old times, when bioware actually made great games...
I love the old republic/extended lore. A shame disney basically made it all null and void.
there is always a bit of truth in legends
Not anymore brothaaaaa
I also completely ignore the Revan in the novel and TOR. The EU might be non canon now, but for me the novel and TOR are a level above non-canon.
Yeah, i agree
if you want to detriment the novel and the old republic the you should DEgrade it not UPgrade it by putting it above
+1. EA totally ruined lore in cheap MMO & book, so I just ignore it and enjoy KotOR story
No worries, by logic of canon, everything created by the creator is canon, as for Disney who didn't make Sat wars, is completely non canon.
Basically what I got here was: Baby's first dive into Machiavelli, the character.
Either way, nice stuff.
Revan understood snacks.
"Revan was power. it was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul."
"he was a very talented young jedi who fell to the dark side, had his memory wiped and became a jedi again" - or NOT. Muwhahahaha ;)
Bandoolero hahahaha!
I love darth revan he’s so awesome
The dumbing down of Revans story in "Revan" and "TOR" reminds me of what happened to Kerrigan in Starcraft 2.
Mind control? I almost regret wanting to learn more about Revan after retreading KOTOR 1/2. Still a good video, even if the information was saddening.
Tyler
Yeah, it's the absolute worst direction they could have gone with him.
He wasn't really mind controlled. He allowed that to stop, slow down the immortal Emperor Valkorion until the true hero came. The character from SWTOR (especially when you play as a force user).
Yeah he wasn't mind controlled past returning to the republic space, it eventually wore off if my memory serves me correctly. I guess I'm the minority, I enjoyed the revan novel.
I like this assessment of Revan. It's a great concept and we never really know why Revan did what he did. Yeah we can speculate due to KOTOR ii. But that's what made KOTOR II a great game in the fact it let the player decide who Revan was. I like TOR it has some great Revan lore in it but....the whole mind control thing by the Emperor is so cliche and makes Revan look like he was played. Course considering how the prequels played Anakin....into Palpatine's hands. I think I would have prefered Vader didn't end up being so controlled and manipulated either.
What I think would have worked for Revan in the aspect of the novel and TOR is Revan saw said Sith Emperor realized he couldn't defeat him and swore to serve him and the Dark Side. Even if a little mental manipulation came into play in that move, Revan realized he had to come up with an army or stronger power to defeat the Emperor in the first place.
When I heard of "mind controlled Revan," for the first time, I thought somebody was trying to pull my leg. I was, like,"come on, guys, seriously! What happens to Raven in the book?!" And my friends would look me straight into the eyes, give a long, defeated sigh and say,"that's it, man, that's what happens."
And to this day, I keep denying it, because it's just so stupid!
luciusnetheril Chris Avellone's vision for the original True Sith should have happened instead.
+1 completely agree
Interesting thought: With Disney's reluctance to add the TOR 'verse into the new canon and preference to keeping it in Legends. I wonder if it's possible that one day we'll have a "canon-remaster" of KOTOR 1 and 2 followed by a canon KOTOR 3.
This would certainly allow the fans of what they did to Revan in the book and SWTOR (not to mention Meetra too :/) - because I'm sure there are fans out there, there always are - to enjoy their SWTOR story path while also giving fans of what KOTOR 2 did for the series a chance to have a "proper" sequel as it were.
Well, of course this'll never happen with EA at the helm, but it's a nice hope to hang onto for 10 or so years from now.
I would so be down for that. I was actually okay with Revan in TOR. It's not what I wanted, but I also felt like it still made sense. I also wouldn't mind an official Kotor 3 though with an alternate ending for Revan and Meetra's characters that hopefully ends on a happier note for them. They have earned some peace dammit.
@@justinlacek1481 I couldn't care less if the entire squad was all female, Twi'lek, or heck, Hutt, as long as they were real characters, and not ineffectual mcwaffledicks or purity Sues.
That's something modern Star Wars seems to really struggle with.
@@justinlacek1481 If it comes out and Kait is fine I doubt it's going to be much of an issue.
It's putting the charater primarily for "gender equality" reasons that usually makes it suck terribly, but if it's just another character and there isn't going to be a "women are -as good as- better than men" reminder every 5 minutes very few people will actually care about it.
*resists the urge to correct upon the use of D&D alignments*
SangoProductions213 I used a well known source for my info, my editor chose an albeit meme worthy character map. I think the info is still accurate no?
+nerdSlayer
+SanoProductions213
^ is absolutely right. A real character doesnt act good or evil just for the sake of the perception of "good" and "evil", they act on a set of beliefs and emotions. Sometimes a characters act can be seen as good, and sometimes as evil. Instead of just staying inside in one of those boxes, we constantly jump around and sometimes we dont even jump to those boxes. For example, what would we label a serial killer who has killed innocents but just saved a child from thugs? Or just saves children in general? A serial killer who only kills innocents that doesnt have children?
The DnD systems assumes everything in a straight line when in reality, it's all curvy and crosses with eachother constantly.
I'm not married to the idea it's absolute though, I never saw it that way. I believe there's far more nuance. Even within the definitions used in DND you have strong cases for contradictions.
Didn't realize people saw it so black and white or if that was even it's initial intention.
There is nothing wrong with their use outside of DnD, it is a simple way to show a character's morality and beliefs ,even if it is not a detailed description or 100% accurate of the character. It is fine to use the system outside of DnD as a template, why should it me limited to the use of DnD only when it can also be applied outside of it ?
The way Nerd used it was perfectly fine, he used it to give a general idea of what Revan's beliefs and personality might actually be like. I do not understand why you people are so vehemently opposed to its use.
Indeed. The reason the two-axis alignment system works for D&D is because that system relies on absolute morality. Indeed, Good, Evil, Law and Chaos aren’t just names for ideas in D&D. They are very real, actual forces that have mechanical implications in the world. In some systems, the pantheon of gods are not just the ultimate expression of those ideas, but also their sources.
The Force is a much more enigmatic ... uh ... force in the universe. It’s there. It doesn’t even have a concrete definition-only approximations based on philosophy.
That said, if I were a GM for a game in which Revan was a PC, he may have started CG, but he’d have been declared LE by the time Bastia faced him. It doesn’t matter if it would better his position in the war-sacrificing people and worlds would shift toward evil. And using the vice on Malachor would seal that shift. Revan fell well before he took the title Darth, SWTOR or not.
Trailer: "It's time for the Jedi to end" Holy shit they are taking philosophy lessons from KOTOR!!!!!
Movie: "I will not be the last Jedi" ZZZZzzzzzzZZZZZZzzzzz... Poor Mark, may the force be with you.
Sooo, what did you think of the movie?
@@orsonlepherd7064 The horror...
The horror...
The horror...
You should have mentioned why "Revan" the book was so bad. Because of SWTOR's developers wanting to put Revan in the game, they made him write different things from what he had in mind for him.(i have this info from an interview with him since before the game came out, sadly i can not link you any legit video). Kind of the same thing that happened with ME3's story.
Lorelei Chris Avellone's original vision should have happened instead.
Yeah, agree. The whole point of book was to ruin KotOR lore to cheap MMO plot
revan was like what kreia told us : looking at revan was like looking at the heart of the force, he was the heart of the force.
i think that is was revan was like. he never was really good or really bad he was much more than that. that is whats makes him so great as an character because he was soo much more like real character. Revan does was is needed to be done to achieve the greater goal a real peace in the whole galaxie and a peace between light and dark.
Absolutely love how you thoroughly explained, in my opinion, the DEFINITIVE Revan. Once that horrible Revan novel and the TOR MMO came out it all completely trashed the deep philosophy behind the character.
Meetra "Surik"
Not "Suitrick"
also rakata, not rataka, lol
Malak was always Malak. Not Alak.
No Malak was Alek before. - starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Malak
Chance Olsingch Read the kotor comic. I highly recommend it
@Justin Last He never identified as Malak inside, his name was Alek and nickname was Squint. "Malak" was a disguise for him to hide under, later then, he took the name Malak as his Sith name.
Drew you are many things Creator Destroyer writer and villain. You brought us Revan but you destroyed him to
I really enjoyed this video. Revan was always my favorite character after Star Wars KOTOR and KOTOR 2. I did read the Revan book and like nerSlayer thought it was awful without any furthering Revan's character development. I haven't played Star Wars the Old Republic so I can't comment on anything that happened with Revan during that MMORPG.
Thank you nerdSlayer for putting this video up though. I found Revan fascinating in his moral ambiguity and he had a real air of mystery about him from the descriptions in KOTOR 2.
what happen to revan? TOR happened. And I can't get past what they did with the exile (wasn't in TOR though).
The exile (Meetra) appears as a ghost in the vanilla content.
@@DiktatrSquid do they have content in strawberry?
While Kreia is my favourite Star Wars character Revan is pretty high up the list.
me too bro
Nice! Thank you for actually going in depth. A lot of videos only skim the surface, hitting all the same talking points, repeating each other. Thank you for having an actual voice.
I loved the bit at the novel i read that Revan deflected a forcelightning and turned the sith into ashe
INTO ASHE!
me too. it was the one good part of the book.
This video made me subscribe to your channel, a beautiful and eloquent breakdown of an epic character. The force is strong in this one, well done sir.
Oh cool, a Revan video.
I just want to say thank you for making this video. you have definitely given the best interpretation of Revan that I have seen on TH-cam yet. you have basically summed up everything that I feel about his character and the way they went with it in the book and the way that the book differed from the games and the vision of Revan. I played the second game before I play the first so I had the added bonus of building up this hype of revans character and then when I play the first one it was that much better finding out that you are Revan in the game. I have said again and again that they need to make a movie about the Kotor games and Revan and Meetra Surik's characters. so many people don't know about the games that are Star Wars fans. Thanks again for making this video.
I know..i know I’m Amazing
Darth Revan more then amazing! You a FUCKING LEGEND!
who's an amazing darth???? you are, yes you are.
Revan story is similar to the Saga story of masami kurumada's saint seiya, both were characters who believed in great power being the alternative to overcome a greater evil, even now the stories have another similarity, the fact that in the end the complexity in revan decisions were simplified in the "emperor's influence", and Saga's complexity is now explained in a "possession" of Saga by a mythical figure in the latest manga
Very interesting video! I always found Revan a fascinating character, and appreciate all the insight. I have to disagree on a few points though - believing you are right doesn't make your actions any less evil. In fact, I doubt if practically anyone considers themselves evil - they either think what they are doing is good, or at very least rationalize even the most horrific actions. Moral relativism is a particularly compelling philosophy to those who would justify evil. Whereas a belief in objective good and evil would lend itself to those who don't believe even a "small" evil (i.e. a small lie) would be justified to save the universe - either through a belief that doing good will somehow work out better than what we can see or predict, or in that it serves a higher purpose than just physical or mortal concern. So I don't see any way Revan could be considered Chaotic Good. (Although the makers of that scale may themselves come from a more relativist perspective.)
My favourite thing in star wars has been the dynamic between Revan and Anakin. Their believes and ambitions. Both following a similar path/destiny.
"...then everything changed when the madalorians attacked" also I gotta say, I love the memes sprinkled in with the seriousness. don't shy away from the campiness, that's half of star wars
I totally agree with you on this. revan was neither a sith nor jedi but something greater than both.
Who was Revan?
A God. The God.
muiecopyright Dark Empire Sidious, Grandmaster Luke, Abeloth, Darth Plagiues, Revan is dead.
Yeah, no. I know the writers over exaggerated what Luke, Vader and Sidious could do in the EU, but the truth is they are children compared to the old Jedi and Sith.
muiecopyright No they aren't, they take powers and abilities to the einth degree, all their feats of a single power are superior to anything Revan has. For example, Revan may use force storm, and describes it as a darkside ritual, and can only use it to take out deadly foes, and yet sidious can make a force storm into deadly lightspeed wormholes that are cited as planet busting, that he can conjure at a whim. Anakin who was a vergence in the force, the most powerful force user discovered in Galactic history got shafted to be 8/10ths of Sidious, both considered to be par during ROTS by the actual canon writers. Revan is a mere clown compared to someone like Sidious, even in Revenge of the Sith being called the most powerful sith lord up to that point. Non EU writers who had their descriptions based in some of the older writings, when Legends was canon.
Luke's actual force waves in his prime could produce Golden fire in addition to achieving absoloute oness with the force. And is cited to be the most powerful Jedi at that point. He mastered all 7 forms of lightsaber combat even using a dueling form he inventes for his students with the help of some of his Masters. Revan is a goddamned Niman scrub. Same case with Sidious on what the writers had to say about Luke and the Jedi, he essentially became what Anakin failed to become.
And if you're going to play the not canon card like every pathetic TOR wanker ive met, then that's an easy answer, TOR IS ALL LEGENDS UNTIL THE SHOVE REVAN INTO AN ACTUAL EPISODE. Not the deleted scenes from Mortis arc, not the Samurai bitchass looking Darth Bane, I mean actual solidified proof its the same tor we are talking about, which it probably wouldn't be because they want to keep to Lucas's original Vision on who is more powerful.
muiecopyright Like you are the first person ive met who doesnt have a brain on this issue, "oh no I like Revan too much, the EU writers exaggerate even though the other EU characters have feats to back up how much stronger they are."
@ PapaWill Luke's force powers resemble the powers of "The Ascendant" side of the Force from KOTFE and KOTET in SWTOR...Arcann could produce golden lightning, and at least one of his Archons could produce a field of golden flames around herself through the Force. Interesting...so many good ideas, I can work with this.
I love this! just love this how you decode Revan's personality, idea's, believe!
You do know that the dark side takes away your agency right? That's a big part of what makes it dangerous. Even in KotOR 1, there's a character that used to be a slave, and began to use The Force to fight slavers. As time went on, she fell to the dark side, and eventaully became a slaver herself.
This is BY FAR the best video i've ever seen talking about Revan, thank you.
The mind control bit isn't as lame as you make it out to be. Spoiler-light: he resisted it and influenced events even while influenced. It wasent so much a brainwashing but more like a command that could not be resisted. Further, Reven purposefully recognized the benefit of attacking the Republic; when he and Malak stumbled upon the old sith empire they both recognized how outclassed The Republic was militarily. Reven purposefully decived the emperor even when he was invading his mind. Reven recognized the only hope for the Republic was to buy time... So, he made the emperor think they were actually much stronger than they were. It was at this time the Emperor sent Reven and Malak to attack and weaken The Republic beforehand...
But... Reven was actually using this as an oppertunity to strengthen the Republic and harden it to war. This is why Reven focused on attacking the Jedi and the military assets... While Malak wanted to level and destroy.
Great video. Revan is my favorite Star Wars character, and you did him some real justice in your video. I appreciate it.
one major thing you missed out on was revan was mind controlled for only a brief time then broke free his attack on the republic was his choice alone. as emperor vitiate sent him to the starforge to hasten his own invasion not start one so his ideal of the greater good remains. his appreance in swotor was weaker in story telling i agree but it still made sense for me as his idea of using the foundry to wipe out the sith species for the greater good made sense to me. his actions in shadow of revan also make sense to me as that was not the true revan but a broken husk the true whole revan died at the foundry. so i dont see the conflict of his character story his mind control caused for you as he was himself when he started the jedi civil war so his motiives where his own.
Perfect video on my favorite star wars character. Thanks for making this!
I do agree when Revan "returns" he's a shell for the writers to drive story forward.
I love this and support any future making of "Decoded".
if your are going to apply the D&D system, your argument makes Revan CHAOTIC NEUTRAL not "good", and personally, i think neutral or maybe even lawful evil would be his proper alignment. a chaotic good or any "good" character still has a "moral compass" (lines they will not cross) and are thrown into a moral quandary when they are at odds with this "code" which was never the case with Revan. it is an attribute of the neutral/lawful alignments (LG, NG, LN, TN, NE, LE) to selflessly/quasi-selflessly justify actions "for the greater good". while i agree in the end (of KOTOR 1) Revan is possibly a CG character (and perhaps even initially), while he was a Sith lord he defiantly was not CG.
One of my favorites twists in the starwars universe I love it! I want a movie so badly based on malak and revan and tej others from the old republic
Mullet Revan = best Revan.
It wasn't a mullet. It was just long hair.
Don't forget the beard ;)
Aarron Cannon
He didn't meant SWTOR Revan
I wish you did more decoded videos. I love your death of a game series, but I loved your character analysis videos because they helped share a lot of nuanced characters and stories to people who may have not played that game before.
Jar Jar Binks- Chaotic Evil
💀
Revan Cartier SkyWalker is the best “Revan” in my opinion.
It’s the one I made myself.
“IT’S ME!”
He wore the mask because when he picked it up, he saw the female mandalorian pleade for a stop to the massacre. Him wearing the mask was his way of honoring her sacrifice
The Revan Novel was adapted into a great full length fan film go watch it here on TH-cam it was really good for a fan film.
We need kotor 1&2 remaster
We need mods
I listened to Revan on Audible, it was chilling. I probably enjoyed it because I didn't have prior knowledge of him
Revan was already turning to the dark side before he met the emperor. Vitiate merely pushed him over the edge
Revan was probably the closest to achieving balance in the force for thinking outside of the box.
Rataka?!?! Really...
julianwashere forgive me my Lord. Apparently I didn't realize the difference
Rattata
määp, it's Rakata, genius! Pronounced like ricotta, only with an a instead of i
Unpopular opinion but I actually loved the Revan book. I don't mind the fact that he got brainwashed by the emperor because to me it made sense. It also doesn't write off what Kreia said in a lot of ways. I think Revan was brainwashed to attack the republic, but used what subconscious control he had to force the republic to unite so it would be strong enough to face the empire.
In my eyes it would be hard to accept that Revan chose to do the awful things he did simply because he wanted to take over the republic to defeat the emperor make him the same thing. It's not morally grey to slaughter all those people and become an emperor with a tyrannical rule so that way he could then defeat a tyrannical emperor himself; that's just stupid.
Not to mention if Revan is as powerful as he is then there's no way he would ever lose to the empire and to Malak of all people. The man was a master strategist and an unstoppable warrior. The only reason I can think of for how he let himself become captured is because subconsciously while he was being controlled by the emperor he knew that if he was captured then he could regain his freedom and take the fight back to the emperor. A master strategist the whole way. He was able to strategies his "defeat" so that way he could actually win which sounds just like a Revan thing to do.
Revan is by far my favorite character in all of star wars and I hope that with the appearance of a grey jedi in the new star wars cartoon that maybe we can finally get some Revanite philosophies.
Revan is all about duality. Mind control is terrible.
often see myself as chaotic neutral really. But I also relate a lot to Revan. He makes necessary sacrifices as I would myself. Revan actually inspires me and I dunno about all of you, but him as a character feels alive in spite of being a storybook character who isn't even cannon anymore.
I echo your beliefs in pretending the Revan book, and The Old Republic for that matter, don't exist.
After playing through KOTOR 1 and 2 i interpreted it that Revan NEVER fell to the dark side, he chose to become "Darth Revan" because he believed that the republic and the Jedi would never be able to fend of the "true sith empire". Which is why Goto said that Revan seemed to be fighting to take over the republic, while Malak was fighting to destroy it. Revan left industrial complexes intact, while Malak destroyed it. Revan never intended to use the Star forge for more than needed, because he knew it would corrupt him since it was fueled by the dark side. His intention was to stop using the Star forge after they had won and go over to use the republics ships and military industrial complex instead.
Malak however fell to the dark side. He was corrpted, maybe he wouldn't have if Revan had explained to him what they where actually doing in the begining. Sure it's retconned that Vitiate wiped their memories and manipulated them into becoming Siths etc later, but when Kotor 1 and 2 came out that didn't exist yet.
I personally liked the Revan novel. As did many.
I believe some your complaints can be retorted with the fact they were rushing Drew to finish the book. Instead of taking his time to flesh out the story, like the Darth Bane Trilogy.
As the novel would go along side with the Swtor MMO.
To me the Revan novel and Bane 3 were both meh. I thought they were okay but no where near as good as the 1st Bane book.
Star Wars Fever
The Revan novel only good part was canderous becoming Mandalore the preserver arc or origin
Very well done, I enjoyed that very much. Revan is my favorite Star Wars character by far, I pray Disney doesn't prove so foolish as to not use this Amazing character for a future project, and I hope they have enough respect for the character to not butcher who he was, and what he stood for.
Meh it doesn't matter.
SWTOR isn't Canon anyways.
Nor is Disney, for they haven't made Star wars.
What we do know about Revan's personality is that he had a great sense of humor. The best example is he created, and programmed HK-47 to call his second in command a "meatbag", and all other organics.
All right. I really like your channel and your previous videos so I hope you can believe that when I criticise you it's coming a very positive place.
But I have serious issues with this video. I'm gonna start with some positive feedback, because that is very important as well: The editing is vastly improved over previous videos and you made it a big point to explain why you included certain media in your analysis while discarding others. This is very important and you found a way to make very clear that the material you disregarded changed the character significantly in a clunky retcon. Good job on that front.
Now the big issue, I feel, is the part where you decide to base a big chunk of your character analysis on the DnD alignment system. The words "serious character analysis" and "DnD alignment system" shouldn't even be part of the same thought process.
The DnD alignment system is not a tool for understanding characters in non-DnD fiction. It was never intended as such and it's not very useful as such. It's a construct of game mechanics tied into a number of specific settings' objective, cosmic morality. Characters in DnD are judged and categorised in this manner because some of the mechanics (like spells and class prerequisites) require it. The settings are structured in a way that this objective morality system does actually have a place for all its characters in it.
Now I probably don't need to point out that real people don't fit into the alignment system. They have complex ideas and ideologies that defy simple categorisation as chaotic and lawful or good and evil. And since art imitates reality, a lot of characters in fiction - well-written characters in particular - also do not fit into the alignment system. They may have political ideals that fall straight into chaotic territory while conducting themselves personally according to a strict moral code even when the outcome of following that code are difficult for them to bear and make their goals harder to achieve.
Any significantly complex fictional character will, in fact, defy categorisation in the Alignment chart. So when you say that finding Revan's place on the chart is difficult, that isn't really a point for the character, it's a point against your chosen tool for character analysis. The Alignment System is a shallow categorisation based on a simplified understanding of morality that was designed to mechanically differentiate characters in a roleplaying game. Applying it to any other piece of fiction is missing the point.
So in conclusion, you basically invented a test for lack of character depth. If a fictional character can be easily sorted into the DnD alignment system, that's a sign that you might want to give them more depth and explore them more. If you cannot sort them in this manner, that's still not a sign that the character is 3-dimensional, it just means that they're at least as deep a character as a space wizard from a video game.
We can call it the nerdSlayer test.
Don't get me wrong, I really dig Revan as a character and I agree that he's super interesting and pretty complex for a video game. But by basing part of your Analysis on a DnD alignment you're doing your argument a disservice.
Hope this gives you something to think about to make future videos even better.
Nichtschwert Feather so you think tools such as simple classifications of a games morality system are unhelpful in communicating motive or morality? I couldn't possibly more disagree.
This is quite possibly the worst argument I have ever heard. The very idea that by using a common term of reference from DnD many people know, to better show the morality of a character, somehow makes this entire video basically worthless is patently absurd. I don't think I've ever seen someone fixate on a single moot point and use it to attempt a complete disservice to an entire essay. Setting someone on a morality system doesn't mean they are SOLELY tied to that morality system, it's used simply as a frame of reference. Also I don't know if you think you're being funny, but coming up with the term "The nerdSlayer test" to describe what you've decided is a negative and poorly thought out idea, comes across as disingenuous in your intentions and just makes you look like a snarky dick.
"Hope this gives you something to think about to make future videos even better"
Yes, by not listening to your terrible, terrible advice.
All right, please calm down. At no point did I say the entire video is worthless, nor did I mean to imply that. I just think it's serious flaw in an otherwise well-made and well-thought-out video essay.
I disagree that the aligment system is particularly helpful to give people a feel for a character, because the different alignments are so very, very rough and ill-defined. WHat each alingment means and who would embody it is such a hotly discussed topic at gaming tables, because these things are so extremely subjective. If you google for it, you'll quickly find an alignment chart that has Batman in every single alignment box on the chart accompanied by a quote that fits that alignment nicely. I think it nicely portrays the inherent problems I tried to convey, as a suitably complex character can be ctageorised as widely different alignments by different people.
And yes, I did intend to be funny. I'm sorry if it came across as snarky and arrogant. I should have left that part out.
All right. Thanks for reacting to my criticism. You are of course free to apply and disregard it at your own discretion.
Also I hope my ill-conceived "nerdSlayer test" joke didn't come across as too snarky. And if it did, I'm honestly sorry.
And I probably should have ended that comment with "Thanks for all your hard work." instead.
So, he can't use the chart because it's such a bad device for character framing, right? Not even for a part in the video? It just looks like too much.
Karpyshyn's answer of mind control just render's Revan's force shield from any manipulation. Karpyshyn ignores Revan's characteristics, abilities, moral ground and as a tactician. If I wrote that... Revan's use of force shield from any forces would have given Revan a chance to strategically pretend to have his mind wipe in order to get closer to his goal to which would be a tactical move on Revan's part; therefore, help the Jedi order win or at least equal the battle on both side bringing a balance within the force; whereas, he was winning against the Republic and realized this balance in the universe was wrong and had to look for an opportunity to side with the Republic...so, he had Bastilla get the best of him and tactically have his mind wiped (not really when it comes to his force shielding) and act or pretend to have a beginner's mind.
Yeah... SWTOR Revan was complete ass. It disappoints me that they would draw from that well and so poorly. It's a shame that the game dropped all of what made the Kotor games good and made such a generic game and an even more generic villain out of Revan.
Tim Hughes oh I so agree with you in all seriousness I like everything else besides Revan in SWTOR mmo
Yeah!!
I like!
Your analogy of Reven is right on.
I hated the book as well it really pissed me off and as far as swtor shadow of revan expanshion is also so messed up I hated it they need to quit screwing up my childhood first with the sequals and now with changing the game canon like kotor 1&2 changed by swtor and with screwing up the battlefront games
Stopped at 14:30, was curious the whole time in where this video was going but as soon as you said you don't even want to talk about Revan's....(story) in TOR....I was relieved. Someone else that feels the same. Dude they didn't even get the outfit correct twice in TOR not to mention how COMPLETELY screwed up they did the first one. (Completely incorrect skirt, no footwear, bugged hood.....no...Cape...) N.S. - Thank you man.
Thank you for believing in the real Revan because swtor just destroyed what was built.
I still remember the confusion/excitement when you find out that YOU are Revan in the first KOTOR. that was some great writing IMHO.