Some thoughts on how we think about solos and music, mixed with a few great Pat Metheny licks! The holiday is over! Almost straight from the car after an 11 hour drive back to the Hague....
That is of course true, but I had a teacher who said: "If you don't hear it you have to know it, if you don't know it you have to learn it" I guess we just need to keep that in mind as well 🙂
do you have any tips or maybe exercises that would help start "hearing it"? cuz my theory is all right i guess, but a lot of times i hear that knowing it is not enough
Play slow and listen to what you are doing! try to hear in rubato what the next bit of a phrase should be. Besides that working with motifs and call-response helps you play things you hear and connect the solo.
I heard the lick and ran to the comments to see if someone heard it, saw your comment and then watched the vid (had it playing in a different tab). I lol'd
Pat is the best guitarist/composer of our time.Not only can he play his ass off, but he's simply beyond compare when it comes to writing music. There are plenty of "guitar virtuosos" out there that can blow notes at the speed of light, but can't write to save their lives.Pat is a true genius in that he has it all; playing skills to rival many other top level guitarists, as well as composing abilities that are unmatched.
it about using the pool of notes and delivering them with a pulse, a groove, with feel. much more technique and feel than applying harmony. once you understand the basic harmonic principles it's about practicing smart to really sharpen your technique, playing a lot, listening a lot, gigging.
I think that basically, you can learn all theory and technique available, but what set guys like pat ahead of the pack is his musical genius, thats why in the end he can do an amazing solo without getting into very hardcore harmonic stuff, how many jazz teachers are around that knows the theory inside out for any instrument? Lots of them. How many play like metheny, garzone, etc? probably none. The music that they hear in their mind is just mind blowing and not many have that kind of ability or gift, even if you spend all your life in the practice room.
Well, If you really check I think you will find that not that many people practiced as much as Metheny, and not that many were gigging weekly from when they were 16-17 years old. Don't underestimate the power of hard work 🙂
just finished learning jacos solo on bright size life, was debating whether or not I should do pats solo too. guess I will! Metheny phrases on bass sound great lmao
Yes your right the Shadows and Light album was great but that live tour really was outstanding. I was at both shows at Alpine Valley and then the show back home in Minneapolis. There is nothing like live shows with musicians who are not afraid to take some chances.
There are a few videos online where Pat discusses his playing in a seminar context (there is one from The Hague which I think was late 80ies, and one from Italy, and also a one on one with a student where Pat is very direct and honest in his feedback and conceptualizing). What you will get from all of them is not theory. It's about being excellent with time, crafting great melodies, developing ideas, and that narrative story telling arch. He's not dismissive about learning scales and harmony theory, he would argue that you need to know all that stuff. Knowing in the sense that you can "hear" it, if you can give it the correct name from a theoretical framework would't matter. But Pat moved beyond these theoretical descriptions as somewhere in the early 90ies (I think) he got to the point where he basically can hear any of the 12 tones at any point (inspired by David Liebman's book). It's the next step from looking beyond the changes (seeing the bigger harmonic picture) and beyond the melody. For me the most difficult thing has not been to dive into theory and learning that stuff (even though I still am learning). You pointed out what I've experienced myself by looking into transcriptions (including Pat's): The question which scale to use is completely the wrong question because with all these greats, their choices of scale are not anything extraordinary. They make a lot of similar scale choices as anyone would. It's the melodic content and the lyrical arch which set some of these guys miles above anyone else. And i find it kind of difficult to figure out how to get there, creating all these meaningful melodic statements because a lot of the theory on improvising is largely based on scales, target notes, outlining changes but not really on how to play 4 choruses on just C major using only C E G to make an interesting and melodic solo (as Pat can do, see his example in the Pat Metheny Interviews book from Richard Niles).
Pat is such an inspiring player. I'm not even a guitar player (I play brass and keys), but I'd love to learn someday thanks to his music and the sound it exposed me to.
I attended a clinic with John Scofield years ago and asked him that very question. "When should you use lydian rather than Ionian?" His response? "Use your ears!"
Nice video! I agree with everything. I also think a HUGE part of what sets Pat apart is his articulation. He sounds like a horn player - not a guitar player. His sense of time is also incredibly good.
I've been growing up with Pat Metheny and heard him endlessly during my teenage years. One of the solo's I think that stands out the most for me, is the one from Saratoga Vineyard where he is playing minuano (6/8). I think it contains all the most pattish licks delivered completely flawless. Nothing about changes here as well. Just harmonies leading the way. Link here - th-cam.com/video/W4HQEV4apHc/w-d-xo.html
Great video Jens! I completely agree with the ideas here, especially the stuff in the beginning about whether or not to use the natural 9 over the m7b5. If we're just playing 8th note lines what's the difference really? Simple but strong melodies and rhythm are usually the best bet in my opinion.
Hi jens, great Video! I couldn't agree more! I learned his "All the things you are" from "question and answers" and there are lots of passages where he clearly focuses more on the movement/development of a certain Idea or motive rather then on the chord-scale relationship of each chord. I think he really has a genuine feel for, like you said, the bigger picture of a phrase or a tune! Great video!
There is a vast difference between true musical expression, and what many people aspire to play-music is essentially about emotional moods, and expressions, not intellectual and pyrotechnic displays.
Hey, quick question. at 7:00 what did you mean by the third of the dominant? the notes are c#, E, G and Bb. Those make up some Sort of half diminished chord with a 6 in it? Is that what you meant by third of the dominant? since C# is the third of A? I feel like theres some theory im missing here... Do you mean thats an arpeggio made of the third of the dominant version of that A chord? sorry if this question is a bit convoluted Thanks
In the video, I say "the arpeggio from the 3rd of the dominant". A7 is the dominant in Dm, the scale that goes with it would be D harmonic minor and the arpeggio on C# in that scale is C# diminished which is what is played. It seems pretty clear to me. Does that explain it?
I don't think the right way to word this would be "He doesn't really focus on the changes all the time". I would say that you don't have to play ALL the changes, and that the direction that melodic idea is taking is more important than the next chord, however I don't think Metheny ignores it, quite the contrary, i think he's so aware of the chord he's not implying that he can do other more logical stuff on top of that.
Excellent excellent discussion and lesson Jens. PM was the perfect choice to build this around and it always struck me how his improvisations on How Insensitive were stunningly expressive and musical.
A friend of mine used to say his approach to this tune was to simply "wank in Dminor". It works on a tune like this but something with more key centre movement is much more challenging to not "just play the changes". I'm thinking Countdown or even Stella. Metheny manages to be super melodic on Giant Steps though, so.....err what do I know?
That's also not my point actually :) I am more thinking about how he is not only thinking about the chord but also taking the key and the piece into consideration 🙂
Jens Larsen Yeah, absolutely agree with you. I've always heard him telling a story very closely related to the lyric on this solo. I mean, you can feel the pain. But yeah I totally take your point about him using simple materials to build something complex.
Thank you very much! I am glad you found it useful! If you have any suggestions for topics or things you are looking for the feel free to let me know 👍
Jens Larsen I agree but it grounds a melodic interpretation better than exercises grinding out licks and riffs, just for the sake of sounding forward. To me all the best players maximize their voices, not their knowledge of scales. Its what makes them individual and date I say interesting. I've followed your lessons and listen, and it's because I hear "you" in the demonstrated scales and such. Peace
I am just reacting like this because this often gets presented as a solution to all problems and that is of course not the case. There are plenty of people with perfect pitch that don't play great jazz solos... Did you know that Metheny was once asked how much of his solos he really "heard" and his answer was 60% (It was a masterclass at the conservatory where I studied many years ago)
Jens Larsen I really think almost every soloist is playing about 60% of what they're comfortable with, then the stuff you've been recently practicing get thrown in the pot, and then just crazy leaps of logic come to you, and you throw those in too. If you're very focused you can come up with a great or passable solo. But you need to hear a melodic theme to base it on.
Probably "how insensitive" Secret story live Is the best version for me,but Also by classical ovation with Jobim and the versione with Di Iorio at MI....but let me tell you a short story:...me and my friend at Big Ma in Rome tor see Allan live!my friend,After the performance,show his transcriptions to Allan and Allan told him"Really?Interesting...but i Really don't know i played that!i trust you!" Allan doesn't makes licks like Pat...Pat has his personal licks,moviments and of course Is totally musical instintive if and When he wants!2 Great players but two different worlds! Thanks a lot for your Great work and Sorry for my english ahah
I just discovered this video. How Insensitive off of the Secret Story Live DVD is one of my favorite PM tunes. Great video and dissection of this great solo. Saving for later study.
Thank you for the lesson. Interesting. I notice when I "think" about what I am doing I get stuck in looking only at the chords but when I am not thinking so much it's more free. How do I harness this on a consistent basis? Any suggestions on how to practice "scales", I have been combining scale, arpeggio, interval and chord practice all in one sitting: usually just doing two at a time, like ascending with an arpeggio then down with intervals, then reverse it all, or scale up and arpeggio down, etc? It seems to be working, but I need variation. Maybe use neighboring tones? Chromatic tones? etc?
In general, you want to practice both what you play and the song to the point where you don't have to think about it when you play. That is just a question of time. As for scale practice, maybe see if some of these videos might give you some new ideas: th-cam.com/video/SdNzYzLTCp4/w-d-xo.html
Good Morning from the Yukon, - 6 c outside. Thanks for posting your video on Pat Methenys style and thought process of developing his performance solos. I love Pats version of how insensitive and have watched it many times. Your videos have helped me in my slow journey to become a better guitarists. Thank you
ironically, I was just beginning to look at his etudes book for warmups. man it's fun, but doesn't have the positions written in so idk how he makes it flow but I guess that's part of the study
Thanks guys, and thanks Jens for the amazing stimulating videos! Please keep up the good work! I'm in Ireland and my son is in Spain. We're both huge fans. So think about a European tour soon!
What's your theoretical reasoning behind using Db-D-Eb in bars 9-10 instead of C#-D-Eb? Are you thinking of the the note as not functioning as a major 7th over the Dm, but rather something else?
Jens Larsen actually, i am a jazz student in my country. i want to know how john scofield composing his licks on any chord progression. thanks, terimakasih :)
If you were to approximate how much of the solo is improvised vs how much was worked out, what would be your guess? I always say 'yes' to both. Was it worked out beforehand? Yes. Was it improvised? Yes.
There is a fine and somewhat arbitrary line between "improvisation" and something worked out in advance. If you are playing a Jobim tune, you need to be capable of articulating his beautiful melodies. You must hear them and play them with sensitivity. Then you can improvise around his melodic and harmonic structure. There is an example of Metheny "improvising" on a Jobim tune that was a complete failure in my opinion. The song was unrecognizable.
Jay, I really don't mean to be rude. But I also don't think it is a good idea that you try to give people "expert advice" on something that you clearly can't do yourself. I think it's fine if you want to share your experience, but bluffing your way by pretending to know how to play is not a good idea. I am also fairly certain that you shouldn't make too harsh judgements on Metheny given the things you have published on your channel. I am sorry to be so direct about this, but I also feel that I need to be honest about how I feel about it.
Jens, I am classically trained and have an extensive repertoire of jazz ballads and tunes. I have not posted a video in some time as I am dealing with two ill family members, but I just picked up a Logitech C920 camcorder and would be happy to post a few tunes from the Great American Songbook expressly for you. Stella by Starlight ok for you? My Romance? A nice solo version of The Shadow of Your Smile? Here's That Rainy Day? Days of Wine and Roses? Name the tune or tunes you would like. One does have to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. You do have that down. And unfortunately, you do mean to be rude. Sadly you lack the chops to justify it.
I don't think I have "inflated self delusions" but if you think I do then why are you checking out my videos? It would make sense if you are classically trained since your videos don't have anything that really makes sense in terms of timing or phrasing, but by all means record something else, could you please make it instrumental?
Thank you very much! I am glad you found it useful! If you have any suggestions for topics or things you are looking for the feel free to let me know 👍
i wonder what you think of terje rypdal and what you would say in a video about him. cant say why but he is my favourite when it comes to electric jazz/fusion guiitar. why i dont know. i mean all the greats use a lot of pentatonics, but they all use them in their own way...fascinating how they all develop their unique sound from the same old techniques
albums i dont know. my favourite is his show with trilok durtu and miroslav vitos, you can check it out on youtube. i like his....i dont know.... scandinavian blues when it comes to eguitar.
👍only, because I'm already getting too much to too many. Even when I was blue collar with my lab coat showing. It wasn't racial but really been a matter of organizations. 🤗
I say if you believe you are right about a section being presented entirely within an educational context, simply contest any claim and they will capitulate. It's easy to claim and rule by fear, hoping to gain your revenue. What matters in the end is the proof, so there is a lot of bluffing. Of course, this is just advice, I am a musician too and I don't believe people should be afraid of copyright simply because you are actually being respectful to breaking down how things are in someone else's music - you're not claiming it's yours and it's fair use if it's educational. Call their bluff for better videos and a better TH-cam.
Well didn't I manage to get my point across with no problems? In this case I think I did. It's actually not about revenue, it is about having a video I spent hours on blocked, I don't care if it is demonetized
@@JensLarsen I hate this whole, let's be adversaries in a conversation bs... Please try to understand that you shouldn't make assumptions about me as I shouldn't about you, obviously I understood your point and so there's no need to suggest I don't unless banging heads together is fun... I liked your video, I support what you're doing and I suggest, that's suggest, you don't show fear if you're right. Also, if you earned the revenue, then it's also the reason to make videos, both are why you posted it. We are not adversaries. Maybe you get too much bad criticism or something, but I'm not going to do that. I just think that as an educational TH-camr, you can place relevant musical quotes within an educational context and stand up for your right to do that, whatever your reasons for posting. You should not be ashamed of your reasons, again, whatever they are, your stance is your stance. Go well, peace, break the adversarial nature.
Take it easy 😁 It's just that if somebody starts commenting out of nowhere and wants me to start a crusade then I don't really know what to think. Am I not allowed to ask why you think so?
A couple of observations about Pat Metheny. First , his technique is relatively individual and resembles that of his hero, Wes Montgomery, in his use of predominantly three fingers on the fretting hand to articulate his lines. This tends to result in more angular runs and a strong triplet feel. Secondly, I would never recommend Pat as a model of ideal fret hand technique, though it works for him, of course. And finally, too often academics obscess about scales. Twelve tones and twelve choices. One must use one's ears to make your choices ultimately. This view is not mine uniquely, but endorsed by giants like Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel, and many other fine guitarists. Taste, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
"Angular" in the manner I intend that word refers to what results often using a three finger fretting hand approach. In any case to convince you of my bonefides I am transcribing this duet between Pat and Jobim on piano, as I personally prefer this version as more lyrical. No Transcribe or other software. Just by ear and sheet music notation. I will record my version of the piano part with my synth, and then play guitar live over it via Logitech C920. Perhaps that will convince you of the skills I possess. Or is that insufficient for your standards?th-cam.com/video/29xlzfi8o-0/w-d-xo.html This song is of course derived from a Chopin Prelude. No.4?
Well, you said you could improvise on a standard so the medium rhythm changes should be a better demonstration I think? It's not like 180 bpm is a really heavy tempo right?
@@JensLarsen Not taking a hit at playing a lot of notes or saying it wasn't melodic, but it just seemed like an odd combination to have straight sixteenths as the first thing you hear when the title says that it is not about the notes
@@georgeeldridge7954 Because if there is a lot of them then he must be "about the notes" Can you only be "not about the notes" if you don't play that many? I don't think that makes sense to me.
Back when I was at GIT one of the most eye opening experiences was watching videos of Pat Metheny playing. His knowledge and use of the fretboard play a lot into playing melodic and also the timbre of the notes. He really understands the tonal sweet areas of the fretboard. Then watching Sco and Martino and start seeing similar approaches to the fretboard leading to long flowing lines. IMHP a lot of Pat (and others) melodic playing comes from the way they view the fretboard.
Watching Metheny play is indeed great! I don't think that a certain way of viewing the fretboard will make somebody play melodic though. That actually makes very little sense to me.
I see players who approach the neck more linearly playing up and down the neck on two or three string vs position playing are thinking more melodic. That is what I notice in Pat, Sco, Martino and others. Pat's book of etudes the ones I looked at (long ago) were more linear in the fingering. Martino his early book on outline things in positions, but in later tutorials he show how he plays in linear movement thru to groups of those positions. Then my own experience when my teacher started having me solo with only two strings, I found myself thinking more melodically to play with only one or two strings. Everyone is different but that's how I see it from watch Pat, Martino and Sco and my own experience.
I kinda get what he's saying because I'm actually experiencing this now. To me, looking at the fretboard more horizontally lends itself more to being able to focus on what to play as opposed to where. Surely it has do with fretboard visualization but I think also, maybe more importantly, a better understanding of the intervals and their relationships. That said, I also get what you're saying, at their level (the examples given), I don't think it matters any longer because the level is so high. For intermediate players, I think looking at the board horizontally can lead to a shift to more logical musical ideas.
That's not what he is saying though 🙂 You are saying is that if you want to have some freedom to play melodies it helps to have an overview of the fretboard. Which is completely different from saying that a similar type of fretboard overview makes you melodic.
@@JensLarsen this is true, but using the Aeolian b5 name puts it in place as the 6th degree of the scale, preceded by the Mixolydian b6 and followed by the Super Locrian, so it might make it easier for someone's brain to categorize, following the diatonic convention.
The locrian natural 2 stems from the 5th mode in melodic minor tonality. I've seen it sometimes referred to as aeolian b5 as well, but locrian is much more intuitive since its main characteristic is the (half) diminished sound.
Yeah sure, Holdsworth and Parker ALWAYS play whatever I was thinking, wonderful! That clears it up. Actually that is the solution to the universe! hahahahahahahaahahahahaahaha
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying IF you transcribe it then it probably is not going to be "maxophrygian b23" scale but just what ever fits the chord.
Some thoughts on how we think about solos and music, mixed with a few great Pat Metheny licks! The holiday is over!
Almost straight from the car after an 11 hour drive back to the Hague....
I'm about the J A Z Z
Of course you are! 👍🙂
J 0 A Z 3 Z 5
Academia has a tendency to get us to overthink a lot of things. Usually followed by someone trying to sell us something.
That is of course true, but I had a teacher who said: "If you don't hear it you have to know it, if you don't know it you have to learn it"
I guess we just need to keep that in mind as well 🙂
do you have any tips or maybe exercises that would help start "hearing it"? cuz my theory is all right i guess, but a lot of times i hear that knowing it is not enough
Play slow and listen to what you are doing! try to hear in rubato what the next bit of a phrase should be.
Besides that working with motifs and call-response helps you play things you hear and connect the solo.
2:09 killed me
Thank you! :)
Jens Larsen entertaining and informative! lowkey would love more easter egg memes sprinkled in the lessons
Thanks I probably will, if I can think about it. Usually I just worry about the topic 😁
Have you heard the album he did with Brad Mehldau trio? It's kind of disgusting how often they play it
I heard the lick and ran to the comments to see if someone heard it, saw your comment and then watched the vid (had it playing in a different tab). I lol'd
Pat himself has used the term "narrative" to describe the story telling aspect of soloing. A good word.
Pat is the best guitarist/composer of our time.Not only can he play his ass off, but he's simply beyond compare when it comes to writing music. There are plenty of "guitar virtuosos" out there that can blow notes at the speed of light, but can't write to save their lives.Pat is a true genius in that he has it all; playing skills to rival many other top level guitarists, as well as composing abilities that are unmatched.
Metheny is indeed a great guitarist and composer 🙂
Nice. I agree. His style, flavor, progressions, and melodies truly connect with people's emotions
He's always said he sees himself as a MUSICIAN who just happens to play guitar.
it about using the pool of notes and delivering them with a pulse, a groove, with feel. much more technique and feel than applying harmony. once you understand the basic harmonic principles it's about practicing smart to really sharpen your technique, playing a lot, listening a lot, gigging.
I think that basically, you can learn all theory and technique available, but what set guys like pat ahead of the pack is his musical genius, thats why in the end he can do an amazing solo without getting into very hardcore harmonic stuff, how many jazz teachers are around that knows the theory inside out for any instrument? Lots of them. How many play like metheny, garzone, etc? probably none. The music that they hear in their mind is just mind blowing and not many have that kind of ability or gift, even if you spend all your life in the practice room.
Well, If you really check I think you will find that not that many people practiced as much as Metheny, and not that many were gigging weekly from when they were 16-17 years old. Don't underestimate the power of hard work 🙂
just finished learning jacos solo on bright size life, was debating whether or not I should do pats solo too. guess I will! Metheny phrases on bass sound great lmao
Great! Go for it!
I remember when Pat briefly played in Joni Mitchell’s band way back when. It was some very interesting stuff.
True! That was a great album!
Yes your right the Shadows and Light album was great but that live tour really was outstanding. I was at both shows at Alpine Valley and then the show back home in Minneapolis. There is nothing like live shows with musicians who are not afraid to take some chances.
Jaco Pastorius also played on Joni Mitchell's Hejira album
It was indeed, the 'Shadows & Light' tour and album along with Jaco Pastorious and Michael Brecker, very fine songwriting and original playing!
There are a few videos online where Pat discusses his playing in a seminar context (there is one from The Hague which I think was late 80ies, and one from Italy, and also a one on one with a student where Pat is very direct and honest in his feedback and conceptualizing). What you will get from all of them is not theory. It's about being excellent with time, crafting great melodies, developing ideas, and that narrative story telling arch. He's not dismissive about learning scales and harmony theory, he would argue that you need to know all that stuff. Knowing in the sense that you can "hear" it, if you can give it the correct name from a theoretical framework would't matter. But Pat moved beyond these theoretical descriptions as somewhere in the early 90ies (I think) he got to the point where he basically can hear any of the 12 tones at any point (inspired by David Liebman's book). It's the next step from looking beyond the changes (seeing the bigger harmonic picture) and beyond the melody.
For me the most difficult thing has not been to dive into theory and learning that stuff (even though I still am learning). You pointed out what I've experienced myself by looking into transcriptions (including Pat's): The question which scale to use is completely the wrong question because with all these greats, their choices of scale are not anything extraordinary. They make a lot of similar scale choices as anyone would. It's the melodic content and the lyrical arch which set some of these guys miles above anyone else. And i find it kind of difficult to figure out how to get there, creating all these meaningful melodic statements because a lot of the theory on improvising is largely based on scales, target notes, outlining changes but not really on how to play 4 choruses on just C major using only C E G to make an interesting and melodic solo (as Pat can do, see his example in the Pat Metheny Interviews book from Richard Niles).
Pat is such an inspiring player. I'm not even a guitar player (I play brass and keys), but I'd love to learn someday thanks to his music and the sound it exposed me to.
Pat is indeed amazing 🙂
I attended a clinic with John Scofield years ago and asked him that very question. "When should you use lydian rather than Ionian?" His response? "Use your ears!"
Exactly :)
Nice video! I agree with everything. I also think a HUGE part of what sets Pat apart is his articulation. He sounds like a horn player - not a guitar player. His sense of time is also incredibly good.
That's certainly very true! Phrasing is a huge huge part of ones style!
I've been growing up with Pat Metheny and heard him endlessly during my teenage years. One of the solo's I think that stands out the most for me, is the one from Saratoga Vineyard where he is playing minuano (6/8). I think it contains all the most pattish licks delivered completely flawless. Nothing about changes here as well. Just harmonies leading the way. Link here - th-cam.com/video/W4HQEV4apHc/w-d-xo.html
Thanks that is indeed a great solo! 🙂
Great video Jens! I completely agree with the ideas here, especially the stuff in the beginning about whether or not to use the natural 9 over the m7b5. If we're just playing 8th note lines what's the difference really? Simple but strong melodies and rhythm are usually the best bet in my opinion.
Thanks Benjamin! Yes that actually seems common sense to me? 🙂
Hi jens, great Video! I couldn't agree more! I learned his "All the things you are" from "question and answers" and there are lots of passages where he clearly focuses more on the movement/development of a certain Idea or motive rather then on the chord-scale relationship of each chord. I think he really has a genuine feel for, like you said, the bigger picture of a phrase or a tune! Great video!
Thank you very much Matthias! Nice to get some real context from one of his other solos! 👍🙂
I was in a band once. We all had novelty names. Mine was...
PAT MeThingy
😂👍
PAT MY WEENY!!!!
@@steveburchfield5576
My bass player was 'Standard Clark ' and my keys guy was 'Shit Career'
Pat plays The Riff of Meme. Nice.
And very clearly too 😄
The Riff of Meme.😂😂😂
Keeping it as simple as possible is always best imho. Thanks for this!
That is very true 👍🙂
Great Jens..You Are Totally Right..
Thank you very much Manos! Glad you like the video 👍
There is a vast difference between true musical expression, and what many people aspire to play-music is essentially about emotional moods, and expressions, not intellectual and pyrotechnic displays.
Very true 🙂
Hey, quick question. at 7:00 what did you mean by the third of the dominant? the notes are c#, E, G and Bb. Those make up some Sort of half diminished chord with a 6 in it? Is that what you meant by third of the dominant? since C# is the third of A?
I feel like theres some theory im missing here... Do you mean thats an arpeggio made of the third of the dominant version of that A chord?
sorry if this question is a bit convoluted
Thanks
In the video, I say "the arpeggio from the 3rd of the dominant".
A7 is the dominant in Dm, the scale that goes with it would be D harmonic minor and the arpeggio on C# in that scale is C# diminished which is what is played.
It seems pretty clear to me.
Does that explain it?
👍🇸🇪😉🇩🇰🇸🇪
I don't think the right way to word this would be "He doesn't really focus on the changes all the time". I would say that you don't have to play ALL the changes, and that the direction that melodic idea is taking is more important than the next chord, however I don't think Metheny ignores it, quite the contrary, i think he's so aware of the chord he's not implying that he can do other more logical stuff on top of that.
I don't see why you are saying something else? But maybe that is just me 🙂
Oh no, Im referring to 4:16, I wrote my comment after watching the entire video so I didn't remember the exact words you used, my bad.
Question: what guitar is the one hanging to the ver left of the video? The one next to the Strato
Hi Santiago! That's a Yamaha SG1000! Great guitar!
Excellent excellent discussion and lesson Jens. PM was the perfect choice to build this around and it always struck me how his improvisations on How Insensitive were stunningly expressive and musical.
Thank you very much Nick! Pat is indeed amazing when it comes to expressive jazz improvisation!
good point; I've noticed this for many years.
Thank you Chad! 🙂
A friend of mine used to say his approach to this tune was to simply "wank in Dminor". It works on a tune like this but something with more key centre movement is much more challenging to not "just play the changes". I'm thinking Countdown or even Stella. Metheny manages to be super melodic on Giant Steps though, so.....err what do I know?
That's also not my point actually :) I am more thinking about how he is not only thinking about the chord but also taking the key and the piece into consideration 🙂
Jens Larsen Yeah, absolutely agree with you. I've always heard him telling a story very closely related to the lyric on this solo. I mean, you can feel the pain.
But yeah I totally take your point about him using simple materials to build something complex.
Inspiring content.
Thank you 🙂
I just started a Methuen binge so you video is perfect timing! Thanks Jens
That's great! Do you have a favourite? 🙂
Jens Larsen. Thanks for asking Jens. Right now my favorite is "so it may secretly begin" but that could change at any time as I listen to more
Thanks again for these amazing videos !
Musically
Thank you very much! I am glad you found it useful! If you have any suggestions for topics or things you are looking for the feel free to let me know 👍
You should play how you'd be able to sing it and expand from there
That is indeed one way of playing what you hear. It doesn't always help you be really melodic though 🙂
Jens Larsen I agree but it grounds a melodic interpretation better than exercises grinding out licks and riffs, just for the sake of sounding forward. To me all the best players maximize their voices, not their knowledge of scales. Its what makes them individual and date I say interesting. I've followed your lessons and listen, and it's because I hear "you" in the demonstrated scales and such. Peace
I am just reacting like this because this often gets presented as a solution to all problems and that is of course not the case. There are plenty of people with perfect pitch that don't play great jazz solos...
Did you know that Metheny was once asked how much of his solos he really "heard" and his answer was 60% (It was a masterclass at the conservatory where I studied many years ago)
Jens Larsen I really think almost every soloist is playing about 60% of what they're comfortable with, then the stuff you've been recently practicing get thrown in the pot, and then just crazy leaps of logic come to you, and you throw those in too. If you're very focused you can come up with a great or passable solo. But you need to hear a melodic theme to base it on.
very instructive video. thank you.
Thank you! Glad you find it useful 🙂
Well analyzed
Thank you for that.
Glad you like it 🙂
Probably "how insensitive" Secret story live Is the best version for me,but Also by classical ovation with Jobim and the versione with Di Iorio at MI....but let me tell you a short story:...me and my friend at Big Ma in Rome tor see Allan live!my friend,After the performance,show his transcriptions to Allan and Allan told him"Really?Interesting...but i Really don't know i played that!i trust you!"
Allan doesn't makes licks like Pat...Pat has his personal licks,moviments and of course Is totally musical instintive if and When he wants!2 Great players but two different worlds!
Thanks a lot for your Great work and Sorry for my english ahah
I just discovered this video. How Insensitive off of the Secret Story Live DVD is one of my favorite PM tunes. Great video and dissection of this great solo.
Saving for later study.
Glad you enjoyed it!
What was that random cat pic at 2:10, caught me offguard lmao
Try to look up Adam Neely The Lick 😀
oh yeah its THE lick
Thank you for the lesson. Interesting. I notice when I "think" about what I am doing I get stuck in looking only at the chords but when I am not thinking so much it's more free. How do I harness this on a consistent basis? Any suggestions on how to practice "scales", I have been combining scale, arpeggio, interval and chord practice all in one sitting: usually just doing two at a time, like ascending with an arpeggio then down with intervals, then reverse it all, or scale up and arpeggio down, etc? It seems to be working, but I need variation. Maybe use neighboring tones? Chromatic tones? etc?
In general, you want to practice both what you play and the song to the point where you don't have to think about it when you play. That is just a question of time.
As for scale practice, maybe see if some of these videos might give you some new ideas: th-cam.com/video/SdNzYzLTCp4/w-d-xo.html
Good Morning from the Yukon, - 6 c outside. Thanks for posting your video on Pat Methenys style and thought process of developing his performance solos. I love Pats version of how insensitive and have watched it many times. Your videos have helped me in my slow journey to become a better guitarists. Thank you
Really glad to hear that Brian! I am working on another video analyzing phrases from Pat's solo on a Blues in Bb :)
Great point about the larger arch
Thank you Joseph 🙂
oooooooh the Adam Neely easter egg, good work sir!
Haha! Thanks 🙂Glad you like it
Hi Adam Neely! hahaha
2:10
if u know what i mean 🤭
ironically, I was just beginning to look at his etudes book for warmups. man it's fun, but doesn't have the positions written in so idk how he makes it flow but I guess that's part of the study
I don't know the book, but I think it makes the most sense with those etudes if you can also identify what he is playing 🙂
Do you have a link for this book?
Just google Metheny Warm Up! I am sure it will appear :)
it's on amazon and kindle store. look up pat metheny etudes or warm up. it's cheap and looks like a ton of fun
Thanks guys, and thanks Jens for the amazing stimulating videos! Please keep up the good work! I'm in Ireland and my son is in Spain. We're both huge fans. So think about a European tour soon!
What's your theoretical reasoning behind using Db-D-Eb in bars 9-10 instead of C#-D-Eb? Are you thinking of the the note as not functioning as a major 7th over the Dm, but rather something else?
Yes! I am thinking of it as an approach to the 3rd of Cm. Pat doesn't play a lot of tonic melodic minor in this solo if I remember correctly 🙂
Ah, that makes perfect sense. Thank you for the reply! :)
I saw Adam Neely ahah
Haha!
i hear the LICK
You should :)
one of my favs, he is amazing
He certainly is!
Too much bla bla bla
Then just find another video, TH-cam is full of them 🙂
I died at 2:10
Haha! I hope you get better or resurrect soon 🙂
This is what I'm waiting for..
Your fans from Indonesia.
Thank you very much Taufiq! Glad you find it useful! If you have suggestions for topics then do let me know!
Jens Larsen actually, i am a jazz student in my country. i want to know how john scofield composing his licks on any chord progression. thanks, terimakasih :)
Thanks! I will keep that in mind 🙂
Nice
You're very welcome! I am glad you like it! 🙂
If you were to approximate how much of the solo is improvised vs how much was worked out, what would be your guess? I always say 'yes' to both. Was it worked out beforehand? Yes. Was it improvised? Yes.
You can hear other Metheny solos on this tune and check. This is improvised not composed 🙂
There is a fine and somewhat arbitrary line between "improvisation" and something worked out in advance. If you are playing a Jobim tune, you need to be capable of articulating his beautiful melodies. You must hear them and play them with sensitivity. Then you can improvise around his melodic and harmonic structure. There is an example of Metheny "improvising" on a Jobim tune that was a complete failure in my opinion. The song was unrecognizable.
Jay, I really don't mean to be rude. But I also don't think it is a good idea that you try to give people "expert advice" on something that you clearly can't do yourself. I think it's fine if you want to share your experience, but bluffing your way by pretending to know how to play is not a good idea. I am also fairly certain that you shouldn't make too harsh judgements on Metheny given the things you have published on your channel.
I am sorry to be so direct about this, but I also feel that I need to be honest about how I feel about it.
Jens, I am classically trained and have an extensive repertoire of jazz ballads and tunes. I have not posted a video in some time as I am dealing with two ill family members, but I just picked up a Logitech C920 camcorder and would be happy to post a few tunes from the Great American Songbook expressly for you. Stella by Starlight ok for you? My Romance? A nice solo version of The Shadow of Your Smile? Here's That Rainy Day? Days of Wine and Roses? Name the tune or tunes you would like. One does have to walk the walk as well as talk the talk. You do have that down. And unfortunately, you do mean to be rude. Sadly you lack the chops to justify it.
I don't think I have "inflated self delusions" but if you think I do then why are you checking out my videos? It would make sense if you are classically trained since your videos don't have anything that really makes sense in terms of timing or phrasing, but by all means record something else, could you please make it instrumental?
Idear
Thank you 🙂
you are awesome Jens !
Thank you very much! I am glad you found it useful! If you have any suggestions for topics or things you are looking for the feel free to let me know 👍
Jens Larsen thanks Jens, love from Brazil !
i wonder what you think of terje rypdal and what you would say in a video about him. cant say why but he is my favourite when it comes to electric jazz/fusion guiitar. why i dont know. i mean all the greats use a lot of pentatonics, but they all use them in their own way...fascinating how they all develop their unique sound from the same old techniques
I am not that familiar with him and to be honest the few times I heard albums I wasn't really moved by it. What is a good album of his to check?
albums i dont know. my favourite is his show with trilok durtu and miroslav vitos, you can check it out on youtube. i like his....i dont know.... scandinavian blues when it comes to eguitar.
Ok! I will try and look that up :) Thanks!
👍only, because I'm already getting too much to too many. Even when I was blue collar with my lab coat showing. It wasn't racial but really been a matter of organizations. 🤗
mestre
Thank you!
I want to get into Metheny hjs music, what album should I start listening to?
Question and Answer or the album with Scofield 😎
@@JensLarsen Thanks! I will give those records a spin ;) Are you going to see Scofield next year? He's playing in Utrecht!
I don't know, often I have to play somewhere else myself. When is it?
@@JensLarsen Wednesday, the first of May 2019! In Tivoli Utrecht and tickets are 40 euros!
Ok. I might be in Poland for a masterclass, but if I am free I will probably come 🙂 Really like that band. I heard them a year ago
This is an educational video, you can place substantial musical quotes in without fear of copyright violation.
Well, that is not my experience on TH-cam, but you should be right 🙂
I say if you believe you are right about a section being presented entirely within an educational context, simply contest any claim and they will capitulate. It's easy to claim and rule by fear, hoping to gain your revenue. What matters in the end is the proof, so there is a lot of bluffing. Of course, this is just advice, I am a musician too and I don't believe people should be afraid of copyright simply because you are actually being respectful to breaking down how things are in someone else's music - you're not claiming it's yours and it's fair use if it's educational. Call their bluff for better videos and a better TH-cam.
Well didn't I manage to get my point across with no problems? In this case I think I did.
It's actually not about revenue, it is about having a video I spent hours on blocked, I don't care if it is demonetized
@@JensLarsen I hate this whole, let's be adversaries in a conversation bs... Please try to understand that you shouldn't make assumptions about me as I shouldn't about you, obviously I understood your point and so there's no need to suggest I don't unless banging heads together is fun... I liked your video, I support what you're doing and I suggest, that's suggest, you don't show fear if you're right. Also, if you earned the revenue, then it's also the reason to make videos, both are why you posted it. We are not adversaries. Maybe you get too much bad criticism or something, but I'm not going to do that. I just think that as an educational TH-camr, you can place relevant musical quotes within an educational context and stand up for your right to do that, whatever your reasons for posting. You should not be ashamed of your reasons, again, whatever they are, your stance is your stance. Go well, peace, break the adversarial nature.
Take it easy 😁
It's just that if somebody starts commenting out of nowhere and wants me to start a crusade then I don't really know what to think.
Am I not allowed to ask why you think so?
A couple of observations about Pat Metheny. First , his technique is relatively individual and resembles that of his hero, Wes Montgomery, in his use of predominantly three fingers on the fretting hand to articulate his lines. This tends to result in more angular runs and a strong triplet feel. Secondly, I would never recommend Pat as a model of ideal fret hand technique, though it works for him, of course. And finally, too often academics obscess about scales. Twelve tones and twelve choices. One must use one's ears to make your choices ultimately. This view is not mine uniquely, but endorsed by giants like Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, Barney Kessel, and many other fine guitarists. Taste, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
I am curious if you find any of the example in this video angular?
"Angular" in the manner I intend that word refers to what results often using a three finger fretting hand approach. In any case to convince you of my bonefides I am transcribing this duet between Pat and Jobim on piano, as I personally prefer this version as more lyrical. No Transcribe or other software. Just by ear and sheet music notation. I will record my version of the piano part with my synth, and then play guitar live over it via Logitech C920. Perhaps that will convince you of the skills I possess. Or is that insufficient for your standards?th-cam.com/video/29xlzfi8o-0/w-d-xo.html
This song is of course derived from a Chopin Prelude. No.4?
Well, you said you could improvise on a standard so the medium rhythm changes should be a better demonstration I think? It's not like 180 bpm is a really heavy tempo right?
Are you referring to I've Got Rhythm?
Rhythm Changes - Google it or look up one of my lessons on it.
You're not really selling your level of expertise like this....
"methenys not about the notes."
Start of Video = Straight sixteenth notes???
Because playing a lot of notes and being melodic is out of the question. Just ask Bach..
@@JensLarsen Not taking a hit at playing a lot of notes or saying it wasn't melodic, but it just seemed like an odd combination to have straight sixteenths as the first thing you hear when the title says that it is not about the notes
@@georgeeldridge7954 Because if there is a lot of them then he must be "about the notes"
Can you only be "not about the notes" if you don't play that many? I don't think that makes sense to me.
Back when I was at GIT one of the most eye opening experiences was watching videos of Pat Metheny playing. His knowledge and use of the fretboard play a lot into playing melodic and also the timbre of the notes. He really understands the tonal sweet areas of the fretboard. Then watching Sco and Martino and start seeing similar approaches to the fretboard leading to long flowing lines. IMHP a lot of Pat (and others) melodic playing comes from the way they view the fretboard.
Watching Metheny play is indeed great! I don't think that a certain way of viewing the fretboard will make somebody play melodic though. That actually makes very little sense to me.
I see players who approach the neck more linearly playing up and down the neck on two or three string vs position playing are thinking more melodic. That is what I notice in Pat, Sco, Martino and others. Pat's book of etudes the ones I looked at (long ago) were more linear in the fingering. Martino his early book on outline things in positions, but in later tutorials he show how he plays in linear movement thru to groups of those positions. Then my own experience when my teacher started having me solo with only two strings, I found myself thinking more melodically to play with only one or two strings. Everyone is different but that's how I see it from watch Pat, Martino and Sco and my own experience.
But surely anybody can play that and make no melodic sense at all?And besides that I would maybe suggest that the term melodic is very subjective 🙂
I kinda get what he's saying because I'm actually experiencing this now. To me, looking at the fretboard more horizontally lends itself more to being able to focus on what to play as opposed to where. Surely it has do with fretboard visualization but I think also, maybe more importantly, a better understanding of the intervals and their relationships. That said, I also get what you're saying, at their level (the examples given), I don't think it matters any longer because the level is so high. For intermediate players, I think looking at the board horizontally can lead to a shift to more logical musical ideas.
That's not what he is saying though 🙂
You are saying is that if you want to have some freedom to play melodies it helps to have an overview of the fretboard.
Which is completely different from saying that a similar type of fretboard overview makes you melodic.
Uhh, Locrian natural 2? I'm afraid that's Aeolian b5! :)
No, that is a silly name since it is used on m7b5 chord..
@@JensLarsen this is true, but using the Aeolian b5 name puts it in place as the 6th degree of the scale, preceded by the Mixolydian b6 and followed by the Super Locrian, so it might make it easier for someone's brain to categorize, following the diatonic convention.
@@youren8 yes, but does not describe the sound and function which is really the job of any good theory.
The locrian natural 2 stems from the 5th mode in melodic minor tonality. I've seen it sometimes referred to as aeolian b5 as well, but locrian is much more intuitive since its main characteristic is the (half) diminished sound.
@@dirkbertels3872 Frank Gambale says Aeolian b5 so that's how I learned it.
Yeah sure, Holdsworth and Parker ALWAYS play whatever I was thinking, wonderful! That clears it up. Actually that is the solution to the universe! hahahahahahahaahahahahaahaha
No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying IF you transcribe it then it probably is not going to be "maxophrygian b23" scale but just what ever fits the chord.
oh....that sounds more boring...better for it to be a key to the universe! ....thanks for playing!
Thanks again for your time and quality in each video you are making. Can you make a video about octaves and some ideas like Wes Montgomery?
I don't really play octaves a lot so I am not sure I feel I can make a convincing video on it, but who knows 🙂
Maybe, I've had ADHD all my life but they just poured shit in fast enough.