Reminds me of the hierarchy of competence: At first there is inconscious incompetence. Then there is conscious incompetence where you realize that you suck. What follows is conscious competence where you gradually learn the language. And finally there is the highest level which is unconscious competence where you speak the language intuitively without thinking about the rules constantly!
Rightly said. Allan Holdsworth (R.I.P.), Guthrie Govan, Josh Meader, Matteo Mancuso and of course, all the jazz masters, like Pat, Scott Henderson, Ben Monder, David Fiuczynski. Liberty Ellman, Marc Ducret, Wayne Krantz, Nir Felder, Adam Rogers (and the list goes on...) are all up there, living the unconscious competence life.
@@YashGadwal "and the list goes on..." It's still a short list. Also, not everyone was as prolific a writig up tunes. Case in point, Holdsworth. How many records did he produce, it was maybe six? I always wondered why he produced so few, esp when in the last 10 years he was alive it was possible to self-produce, he even sold one: Flat Tire, which I have a signed copy of since I pre-ordered it.
@7:05 This is why it is so cringe when people say that learning theory ruins the musicality. They don't that realize that they are really just refusing to learn the standard way to communicate theory, not theory itself. Jimi hendrix didn't know theory in the former sense, but he certainly knew theory in terms of knowing THAT note sounds good over THIS chord and so on.
Exactly, people conflate being able to articulate and explain from a theoretic framework the nuts and bolts of what they are doing versus being able to just do it. On the other hand, it is difficult to learn or especially teach music if you don't have a theoretic framework. The framework can help you speed up your learning (for example: either you learn to apply the formula to make a major scale, or you are going to memorize 12 scales) and it shows you new opportunities and ways of approaching things as it takes out the fragmentation which happens when you are autodidact and figure out everything yourself. Because in the end, a framework ties various concepts together into a coherent whole. The thing I would be most interested to learn from Pat is how to get good at creating compelling melodies. I find too many books/methods on improvisation focused on the theoretical aspect of applying scale X to chord Y or deconstructing melody in small blocks which can be manipulated. But how to create a really beautiful melody and play around with it. Still looking for something on that....
I’m a graduate of Berklee. I started just when Pat left, but Gary was still there and Mike Metheny. Even though I know a lot .. I know that I can learn from most players. All of us can hum along with any song. We can just do it, we’re born with it. I solo by singing what I’m going to play in my head before I play it. I’ve forgotten more than most will learn . ( I’m not being arrogant ).My knowledge ( Tools ) let me solo in a way that most jazz musicians do. There’s no way to solo and think about the chord that you’re going to play over next. You can do that if you get the lead sheet upfront and have time with it.! I mostly use my ears, then the muscle memory kicks in and from the thousands of hours practicing Scales, modes, arpeggios, intervals ( some call them double stops ) , triads all over the neck in every position, inversion , also upper structure chords, all combined in the solo. Once you have the tools , you’ll be able to use them and hear where they should go. I also use passing tones and little bits that I’ve found to work over the years. Practicing these pieces of grammar is “ Boring “ A great exercise is to turn on the TV and solo over the music being played . Another good trick that I’ve learned, from John McLaughlin , is to practice these boring scales , modes , arpeggios,etc. while watching TV. It’s less pain and stress on your brain. Remember that half of learning is muscle memory. If you think that you’ll play any thing on the guitar without your fingers being tied to your brain , you’ll be mighty disappointed. You'll practice and probably not see any improvement for a day. The tying of your brain and muscle memory , happens without you even thinking about it. Your brain takes care of that after you’ve practiced. Listening and trying to play other’s solos really helps too. You’ll get ideas that you may not have thought of. As Pat said, it’s very important to hang out with great players,players that are much better than you, it humbles you and makes you want to acquire more knowledge. Your goal is to always be learning more. Make it your business to go to these small venues. Hang around after and talk to these players and others that are there, ask things, (don’t try to show off), showing off is the opposite of learning.. You may find players that love to pass on their knowledge, some don’t want to. (There are assholes in every walk of life). A musician that’s secure in his abilities will usually talk to you. P.S. If you listen to old Bop and Jazz albums, often- 1) you’ll hear foot tapping 2) the guitar players humming what they’re playing coming through the mics. So, we know that’s how it was done ✔️
Good advice about the technical skills, physically working the material into your hands and muscle memory. Ain't gonna happen otherwise, if you think you just know it and will be able to execute it. I always went about things thinking there was theory and ear. Now that I'm an organist, there's a crap ton of technique involved to be able to play at all. So it hit me duh, technical skills is a whole other topic that I need to focus on besides ear and theory. About the stuff you worked into your toolbox. I came up with a real effective way to practice raw theory for melody to have it sound authentic when you go to use it: scales, arps, intervals, chromatics. That's how melody is shaped in the real world so if you work those up individually and combine them, you're set. Only practicing scales or scales and arps isn't as effective cuz you have to shape the melody differently and also have some chromatic notes in there to be effective.
This was a great and uplifting/encouraging read. The concepts you mention correspond to how I also feel it seems to work. Thanks for taking the time to write and share your thoughts/experiences so thoroughly. I actually think that you explain it a bit clearer than Pat does in this segment. Pleasing also that you mentioned John McLaughlin who's playing I adore and I am already on to the TV thing.. :) I also like to play to music a lot.. Joe zawinul syndicate, Miles Davis, Mahavishnu, Pat Metheny (which can be hard to play along with sometimes especially the acoustic stuff I feel).. But I just play along to challenging music that I like and basically try to find a tonal centre and then use my ears to try and play things that sound good or match along with the music, which can be hard sometimes when keys change and stuff but I feel it might be a good exersize for the ear. But I don't know..I think anything that makes you pick up the guitar and play anything basically is good exersize.
Well you can put in 100 hours of focus on the wrong things or you can put 50 hours of focus on the right things and the difference will be outstanding. The secret to improvisation is learning what to focus on. So actually, there is a secret which goes beyond the hours you put in 😉
Consistency and patience will always win, but being EFFICIENT with that time (as the comment above me said) will allow you to improve so much more quickly. I bet a lot of the people in the "everyone" group you're referring to actually put in a ton of time to begin with!
@@Alpha-Andromeda I agree. Obviously, there are things to focus on, but I find that many learners (myself included) want a "secret" to learn improvisation. I've heard guitar players on TH-cam asked the same question and they always answer the same thing: they're not thinking anything when they're improvising! Pat Metheny said it in the video, it's something that takes years to learn, and that's more what I was referring to.
This is exactly the same concept that Pat Martino described differently in an interview. He was asked if he thought about scales over chords when he was improvising. He said (more or less): 'Jazz doesn't work like that - it's too fast to think like that; but it can be prepared for'. This Pat is describing the nature of that preparation. Same thing with a spoken language. I can get by in French and hold a nice conversation, but I can't really express myself freely. That's because I'm not fluent, and that's because I just don't have the familiarity that comes of preparation.
I've never seen him not...he is a rare being..not a huge fan of his repetitive phrases, but i love his gestures, and warm tone, and positivity. his positivity is fantastic. in all his solos
Pat has always been this way and I’ve found him to always share his music knowledge freely. On Pats worst day, I think he plays great, but I’ve actually heard him say when he’s had a bad night. Everyone should be as lucky to play as well as he does on his bad nights...😊 Funny anecdote - I was going to Berklee at the time and Pat and Lyle were playing at Stony Brook University ( Incredible concert ). Between songs, Pat says to all of us “ What song do you want to hear ? “ I yelled “ Whipping Post “ He and everyone laughed and they started playing it. Pat even jumped up on the bass drum ! I wonder if he remembers it....🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
Man pat is an very intelligent human being ! And the way he’s improvise on the guitar is just divine ! The greatest jazz guitar player ever ! And I really mean it ! 👑 🎸
He’s spot on. It takes a great deal of time to learn a language. Jazz improvisation is a language. The only way to master it is to ‘speak’ it for a long time.
Also, you “ Must “ speak the language with the correct accent. I believe that’s what Pat meant, when he said, “ You have to have a strong sense of Bebop language “
Jamie Morgan totally agree. That’s what sets jazz apart from classical. With enough hours, anyone can achieve performance level in classical music, but no matter how much you practice jazz. the hours mean nothing of you don’t have the chops. It is the perfect music through which to express one’s soul in the moment imo.
@@jazzman2516 There was this kid at Berklee, that cut his chops on “ Jerry Garcia” . Everything this Ass played ( he was actually an Ass as a person😐) came out sounding just like Jerry’s playing.. imagine him comping standards with a JG feel! 😩😩😩😩😩😩 Jerry is great in the Dead and for being himself, not Jazz.. I agree with you on improvising a Jazz solo, It’s an art. As you’ve written, you get your notes to play in a classical piece, yes it still needs feel and interpretation, but Jazz, if you’re playing well will come out different every time you solo... It will still sound like you, but different.
Pat Metheny had said once be the worst player in the band..it makes sense..be humble and all knowledge will come to you.Learn all the tools, triads scales, changes, harmony and then forget it and all that will kick in ..in the proper setting .
It’s significant that he is saying he is working on creating something new in a confinement of modern jazz theory that was considered to have reached the ceiling of creativity back in 50’s. It’s basically doing complex things while sounding great and he has succeeded that. He made a great contributions to music.
So great to hear him refer to it as grammar! That's what I tell my students ask the time. Theory is the extrapolation of concepts from a large body of research; knowing that a topic Major chord has a M7 in it is grammar!
I use grammar as a reference to dj’ing. Specifically poetry. Everyone uses words. But a real poet can turn those words into something special. A dj has the same records as anyone else. It’s how you play those records off of each other that makes something special. Music is a special language art that takes time and understanding to completely connect with. I love that I can always learn something new in music too. It seems endless and circular at the same time.
It’s like learning a new language. You start by learning the words, grammar, ear training (listening to native speakers speak) and putting yourself in situations where you practice the language, you mess up, you make a fool of yourself, etc. But, you keep doing it and doing it until you reach a level of fluency when you can talk about subjects (weather, sports, whatever). It takes years and years of practice to the point, as Pat says, you don’t need to stop and think about the grammar as much. It flows out of you.
@@sheltr9735 Hi, he always wore his horizontally striped shirts when he performed with the Pat Metheny Group. I think he had a different kind of shirt for his other bands. Been seeing Pat since the 1980s (first at Toad's Place in New Haven, CT). RIP Lyle Mays....
He hasn't had "such great hair" for a long time. This clip is approx 30 yrs old. For the past 10+ yrs, Pat has been wearing a wig, which looks ridiculous. I know his hair was sort of his trademark, and no one is immune to vanity, but his hair isn't why we love Pat. It's common for a man in his 60s to have hair loss. We'd be accepting of that--it's part of life--I wish he could be, because seeing him in that helmet he dons is just sad.
Fine pat I’ll go practice my Parker Omni book. I’ve been playing guitar for 25 plus years and just now barely starting to get bebop right. Pats a genius, but more importantly he is kind open and patient. Nah just gonna listen to a Metheny record.
The two most helpful things for my musical development have been the amazing slow down app- ie extensive transcribing- and attending Barry Harris classes which can now be found on TH-cam. Both are far better than the omnibook. Good luck
Without a teacher who is super competent one can waste a lifetime trying to figure it out. Like he said he grew up around guys that fueled him and had access to the source most of us aren’t so lucky. Hard to say you will be worth anything if you only learn out of a book or TH-cam videos.
About your subject.. Improvisation.. And Theory.. I like your explanation.. I wondered Why so difficult.. Even if I am not Musician.. It seems it is a laungauge.. If.. You have the talent to learn this.. It is like learning another musical laungauge..
Pat and Gary are right. Improvisation is the way you speak, theory is the stuff that you learn first from your parents and then all the language and grammar courses you take in school to learn how to speak and sometimes write, fluently.
It’s possible to speak a language extremely well enough to communicate with anyone as well as impress a lot of people with your command of words, it’s not at all important to understand the theory behind the language you are speaking just as it’s not important to understand music theory to be an amazing musician. With time and exposure, just like the Language of words we will learn what sound great with something else. In this way you will naturally understand the patterns related to theory, but not the unnecessary words which are used to explain music theory when talking about it. It begs the question, what amount of knowledge actually counts as theoretical understanding?
@@corneliousism why do you pride yourself in your Ignorance? You can throw darts at a board in a dark room all day and eventually you will get a bullseye, but if you turn the lights on even just for a minute you will have much more consistent success
@@ianrags your analogy is pretty weak. Possibly the complete opposite of what you tried to convey Adding loads of words, basically creates another obstacle between your ears, eyes, mind and fingers. You don’t need to fully understand the theoretical physics of motion to be the best dart player in the world. What makes a good dart player is consistency and acquiring muscle memory. Same with music. Why are are you salty about me saying music theory isn’t needed? Did you waste time studying it and only manage to become a mediocre musician? Do you think Django or Charlie Christian wasted time learning the words to explain whatvthey we’re playing? Hell no! Music is just patterns, it doesn’t need words
Bee bop language (theory covers a lot) more. I see comments referring to David Gilmore licks over bee bop runs. Anytime you see full on experienced bee bop guy David gillmore is not threat. To a jazz guys, chords on shine on crazy you diamond’ just basic fundamentals. When a Rock guitarist learns ‘shine on crazy diamond’ it’s like holy grail of chord changes..I felt accomplished. I learned a shit load from Floyd affiliate Boomer blues.
An interesting question then is, what about the listeners? I myself have only a basic musical education, but no theoretical knowledge of more complex chord progressions. Still, after decades of listening to masters like Pat, Miles, Wayne, Herbie, Bill, Freddie, etc., I have an inkling of the next chord. So I would immodestly say I understand the language very well by now, but can neither speak it nor describe it. And there remains a slightly unsatisfying feeling that I can't. On the other hand, the musicians are certainly happy about everyone who only already understands them 😄
He said he gets bored with any music not rooted in the Bebop language. I'm not like that at all. More and more, I find happiness in the simplest music. It's really the phrasing and timing I like -- not necessarily how it describes complex chords.
A good analogy , forming language from thought, but in another interview he mentions Soul. That almost undefined quality. As a player for decades I know when I hear someone playing from their Soul. And my improv is at its highest when the pathway between my soul and mind is more open. How this is accomplished is the real question.....
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ 🎓🎸🎓⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ A Great Video by Gary Burton is on here. It’s called : Improv Class - Gary Burton. It’s long and is exactly what Pat was saying about Gary. You’ll need to have a lot under your belt to understand it. I’m positive that Pat knows about “Lenny Breau” Amazing ,Amazing, Amazing ✔️
I do wish Pat was a little more open-minded in some regards to more modern approaches to musicality. I understand that he probably witnessed at least a few ignorant musicians who refused to learn music theory (or some form of it) when it would've benefitted them greatly, but that isn't an excuse for not tolerating/accepting the value of musiciansip outside of western music theory in all cases. I'm not denying that music theory can be extremely useful in most musical disciplines, but there is also a whole world of music outside of the bounds of traditional music theory. That's just my two cents, though. [EDIT 12/6/22]: It appears that my statement has not been taken well after five or so months since I originally wrote it. I would like to clarify that I am a HUGE Pat Metheny fan. He is/was an amazing musician who has been an inspiration for me. I would also like to add that I don't really agree with my original statement anymore. I think I must've misunderstood Pat at the time. My knowledge in music theory and history has grown quite a bit since five months ago, and I have different views now. I'm very young and don't always know what I'm talking about lol.
Lars or Lard whoever the heck you are, you can keep your opinion to yourself you obscure wannabe unknown dirtbag, insulting other musicians makes you an arrogant dickhead
I agree 100%. It was honestly such a pretentious argument for him to make. I'm someone that has a fairly solid understanding of chord-scale theory, but I honestly find it boring when I hear guys just shred bebop lines at 250bpm forever. Sometimes it's nice to hear David Gilmore bend whole notes and noodle with pentatonics
Totally agree. But he was honest, he said "'I'm a conservative" and said that HE gets bored. It's his approach. To me its no surprise that the music I like the most from his career, is the one he made when he was younger and had less "knowledge".
@@TrevWings I think Metheny would agree that notes without melody is boring. He is adamant that melody is king. Plus, Metheny uses plenty of pentatonics!
Please tell us where to find "A whole world of music outside of the bounds of traditional music theory"? It's all based on Pythagorean Overtone Series (POS) - be it indian, african, asian or western. POS defines our (ethnian unrelated) feel for consonance or dissonance in melody. And that's that. Metheny said, he just thinks w/out ->bebop
This is why the current scene is the music is limited and almost struck. It not coming from how Pat learned it coming from schools. It not coming from guys who are really living it. Still some going on but with limited live playing space musicians just don't have the ability to just gig until u get better,to just hangout.
You obviously haven't seen that infamous backstage footage with the groupies. Joke - there is no such footage & I agree, he comes over as a really nice guy. Watch the Rick Beato interview as well it's fascinating
Agreed. In addition to that being his nature he grew up in Missouri near Unity Village, the world headquarters for the Unity Church. He never drank alcohol, never smoked and as best I know has been married only once to the woman that he is still married to. Not a very "wild" guy at all. So yep, quite Mr. Rogers-like. Rogers was a Presbyterian minister and played jazz piano!
@@Nagroddy With the added benefit that he is still alive and playing! In the Beato inverview Metheny says that one reason he didn't get into alcohol and drugs was that he saw other musicians die from the abuse -- that and observing how performances often suffered as the night wore on.
I'm surprised that he didn't say blues is the foundation because Bebop and all jazz for that matter is based on the blues. Everybody he mentioned were great blues and rhythm changes players.
The secret is take some beer and jam along the tune or song coming out and your pocket get full of gold, some old trix is to take a song or tune and play it backwards, then jamming around it,,,,sorry my bad english...
That's why I play blues not jazz. Not that I'm a great blues player but jazz is way over my head. Just an amateur so I got lots of other things to worry about.
I would like to listen to Metheny when he plays Donna Lee. So we can say, for instance, Eric Johnson who just appeared on the right of my youtube, is kinda boring.
Practice practice practice, study study study, listen listen listen!!! Enough of this “I tried for a week, let’s see how many likes I can get online!!!”
It was reported that after this interview, wildlife professionals very carefully approached Metheny from behind and grabbed the mangy raccoon that had attached itself to the back of Pat's head. It was sent off for rabies testing.
Pat thinks from a educated version of music and the majority of people do not. Most people play by ear and do not know theory or why they are playing what they are playing they just know it sounds good. His way of thinking is the result and going to school for music and really studying theory. That is a good thing and a bad thing. When you learn rules then you will say oh that not right even tho it sounds right to you. Either way, music was ment to be listen too not scientifically analyzed. Listen to blues players most have no idea what they are playing theory wise, they just know the language from listening to the blues players before them.
Interesting. he is bored with players who aren't versed in be bop. I find the majority of bebop players play the same licks, the same lack of ideas, the same high-fast-loud mindset, and they are boring. I forget who said this (and I paraphrase) - A good player can play what he hears in his mind. A really good player plays what he thinks. A great player is what he thinks. It's all about what ideas a musician wants to convey. Bebop is like shredding - jam in as many notes at a time as one is technically able. But I think that is a lot like a Valley Girl just babbling.
In an age of constant distractions and instant gratification.... these are 2 things that DO NOT help with improvising and/or growing with your instrument.
I don't play, but hearing Metheny say bebop is the root of all he does makes me think of his tendency to play constant streams of notes. Only sometimes does a blues phrasing feature more predominantly in his playing. A player that reminded me of that side of Metheny's music is David Becker. If Pat veers towards bebop, Becker veers towards blues as a player. Often I can enjoy his playing more than Pat's because if he takes a solo the phrasing remains "the thing", rather than playing over chord changes as quickly as possible, which is where most of Pat's solos go. Maybe Pat actually got "too good" at playing bebop! He races ahead and forgets about good phrasing. It can be a thrill to hear Pat play so much guitar. But often I say to myself he could say more by playing less.
I've never had to "learn" improvisation. Music is sound, and, due to the same congenital defect in the development of the left parietal lobe of my brain that led to my dyscalculia, musical notation is indecipherable gibberish to me. Because I can hear music with no trouble at all, listening is how I know it. So, as I have learned various musical instruments, all "by ear," naturally, I have learned improvisation, as a natural extension. I don't know any other way. Talking to me about music theory is like talking to me about algebra, trigonometry or calculous. Music is sound, not notation. I don't "read" it, I hear it.
That's essentially what Metheny is saying. And I think 90% of people would agree with you that formalized music is gibberish. But research shows that some explicit knowledge of grammar aids in development. You're lucky in that you have a knack (or maybe just confidence) for improvising but it wouldn't hurt to be aware of theory basics or the rudiments of notation. For instance, so you can see the contours of a melody. I've embarked on the journey to learn improvisation recently myself. Good luck!
Hello Jeremy… I thank you for uploading this wonderful video. I would really love to add Spanish subtitles to it, so my friends and the Spanish speaking musicians in general could enjoy it as well. Would that be ok with you? Of course, I would do it for free. If you are interested, please send me an email address so I can send you the text.
Reminds me of the hierarchy of competence:
At first there is inconscious incompetence.
Then there is conscious incompetence where you realize that you suck.
What follows is conscious competence where you gradually learn the language.
And finally there is the highest level which is unconscious competence where you speak the language intuitively without thinking about the rules constantly!
I have been at conscious incompetence for the last 25 years sadly!
Rightly said. Allan Holdsworth (R.I.P.), Guthrie Govan, Josh Meader, Matteo Mancuso and of course, all the jazz masters, like Pat, Scott Henderson, Ben Monder, David Fiuczynski. Liberty Ellman, Marc Ducret, Wayne Krantz, Nir Felder, Adam Rogers (and the list goes on...) are all up there, living the unconscious competence life.
@@YashGadwal "and the list goes on..." It's still a short list. Also, not everyone was as prolific a writig up tunes. Case in point, Holdsworth. How many records did he produce, it was maybe six? I always wondered why he produced so few, esp when in the last 10 years he was alive it was possible to self-produce, he even sold one: Flat Tire, which I have a signed copy of since I pre-ordered it.
@@YashGadwal put Bill Frisell on the list
@7:05 This is why it is so cringe when people say that learning theory ruins the musicality. They don't that realize that they are really just refusing to learn the standard way to communicate theory, not theory itself. Jimi hendrix didn't know theory in the former sense, but he certainly knew theory in terms of knowing THAT note sounds good over THIS chord and so on.
Exactly, people conflate being able to articulate and explain from a theoretic framework the nuts and bolts of what they are doing versus being able to just do it. On the other hand, it is difficult to learn or especially teach music if you don't have a theoretic framework. The framework can help you speed up your learning (for example: either you learn to apply the formula to make a major scale, or you are going to memorize 12 scales) and it shows you new opportunities and ways of approaching things as it takes out the fragmentation which happens when you are autodidact and figure out everything yourself. Because in the end, a framework ties various concepts together into a coherent whole.
The thing I would be most interested to learn from Pat is how to get good at creating compelling melodies. I find too many books/methods on improvisation focused on the theoretical aspect of applying scale X to chord Y or deconstructing melody in small blocks which can be manipulated. But how to create a really beautiful melody and play around with it. Still looking for something on that....
Great point 👍🏻
I’m a graduate of Berklee. I started just when Pat left, but Gary was still there and Mike Metheny. Even though I know a lot .. I know that I can learn from most players. All of us can hum along with any song. We can just do it, we’re born with it. I solo by singing what I’m going to play in my head before I play it. I’ve forgotten more than most will learn . ( I’m not being arrogant ).My knowledge ( Tools ) let me solo in a way that most jazz musicians do. There’s no way to solo and think about the chord that you’re going to play over next. You can do that if you get the lead sheet upfront and have time with it.! I mostly use my ears, then the muscle memory kicks in and from the thousands of hours practicing Scales, modes, arpeggios, intervals ( some call them double stops ) , triads all over the neck in every position, inversion , also upper structure chords, all combined in the solo. Once you have the tools , you’ll be able to use them and hear where they should go. I also use passing tones and little bits that I’ve found to work over the years.
Practicing these pieces of grammar is “ Boring “
A great exercise is to turn on the TV and solo over the music being played . Another good trick that I’ve learned, from John McLaughlin , is to practice these boring scales , modes , arpeggios,etc. while watching TV. It’s less pain and stress on your brain.
Remember that half of learning is muscle memory. If you think that you’ll play any thing on the guitar without
your fingers being tied to your brain , you’ll be mighty disappointed. You'll practice and probably not see any improvement for a day. The tying of your brain and muscle memory , happens without you even thinking about it. Your brain takes care of that after you’ve practiced. Listening and trying to play other’s solos really helps too. You’ll get ideas that you may not have thought of.
As Pat said, it’s very important to hang out with great players,players that are much better than you, it humbles you and makes you want to acquire more knowledge. Your goal is to always be learning more. Make it your business to go to these small venues. Hang around after and talk to these players and others that are there, ask things, (don’t try to show off), showing off is the opposite of learning.. You may find players that love to pass on their knowledge, some don’t want to. (There are assholes in every walk of life). A musician that’s secure in his abilities will usually talk to you.
P.S.
If you listen to old Bop and Jazz albums, often- 1) you’ll hear foot tapping
2) the guitar players humming what they’re playing coming through the mics. So, we know that’s how it was done ✔️
I like it
Good advice about the technical skills, physically working the material into your hands and muscle memory. Ain't gonna happen otherwise, if you think you just know it and will be able to execute it. I always went about things thinking there was theory and ear. Now that I'm an organist, there's a crap ton of technique involved to be able to play at all. So it hit me duh, technical skills is a whole other topic that I need to focus on besides ear and theory.
About the stuff you worked into your toolbox. I came up with a real effective way to practice raw theory for melody to have it sound authentic when you go to use it: scales, arps, intervals, chromatics. That's how melody is shaped in the real world so if you work those up individually and combine them, you're set. Only practicing scales or scales and arps isn't as effective cuz you have to shape the melody differently and also have some chromatic notes in there to be effective.
This was a great and uplifting/encouraging read. The concepts you mention correspond to how I also feel it seems to work. Thanks for taking the time to write and share your thoughts/experiences so thoroughly. I actually think that you explain it a bit clearer than Pat does in this segment.
Pleasing also that you mentioned John McLaughlin who's playing I adore and I am already on to the TV thing.. :) I also like to play to music a lot.. Joe zawinul syndicate, Miles Davis, Mahavishnu, Pat Metheny (which can be hard to play along with sometimes especially the acoustic stuff I feel).. But I just play along to challenging music that I like and basically try to find a tonal centre and then use my ears to try and play things that sound good or match along with the music, which can be hard sometimes when keys change and stuff but I feel it might be a good exersize for the ear. But I don't know..I think anything that makes you pick up the guitar and play anything basically is good exersize.
😂Everyone is looking for the secret to improvisation. And the answer is always the same, put in the hours.
Well you can put in 100 hours of focus on the wrong things or you can put 50 hours of focus on the right things and the difference will be outstanding. The secret to improvisation is learning what to focus on. So actually, there is a secret which goes beyond the hours you put in 😉
Consistency and patience will always win, but being EFFICIENT with that time (as the comment above me said) will allow you to improve so much more quickly. I bet a lot of the people in the "everyone" group you're referring to actually put in a ton of time to begin with!
@@Alpha-Andromeda I agree. Obviously, there are things to focus on, but I find that many learners (myself included) want a "secret" to learn improvisation. I've heard guitar players on TH-cam asked the same question and they always answer the same thing: they're not thinking anything when they're improvising! Pat Metheny said it in the video, it's something that takes years to learn, and that's more what I was referring to.
Time and practice are paramount.! But the best musicians have a wonderful imagination.. and not everyone who puts in the time has that ..
@@joeurbanowski321 word
I analyzed all his improvisations in 20 hears. Now hear me, because two are his secrets to improvisation: his shirt, and his hair
Emanuel….🤣
@@joeurbanowski321 visit my channel ;) i have a long video on impro
You say "his hair". Is it really his though?
@@37FBF490 Not me, Compared Hairlogy says it.
When he started he had to think how to make his hair go like that ,now it just does it.
So refreshing to hear someone say "subconscious" instead of "unconscious." 2:52 - I know, I'm weird like that.
This is exactly the same concept that Pat Martino described differently in an interview. He was asked if he thought about scales over chords when he was improvising. He said (more or less): 'Jazz doesn't work like that - it's too fast to think like that; but it can be prepared for'. This Pat is describing the nature of that preparation. Same thing with a spoken language. I can get by in French and hold a nice conversation, but I can't really express myself freely. That's because I'm not fluent, and that's because I just don't have the familiarity that comes of preparation.
Pure genius, lots of players don’t know the names of things they are masters of. It is indeed a language.
PM is so generous in this interview - and inspiring. I was hanging on every word.
PM for Prime Minister!
I've never seen him not...he is a rare being..not a huge fan of his repetitive phrases, but i love his gestures, and warm tone, and positivity. his positivity is fantastic. in all his solos
@@yohenson I'm lost. Are you talking about Metheny or Eric Johnson?
Pat has always been this way and I’ve found him to always share his music knowledge freely.
On Pats worst day, I think he plays great, but I’ve actually heard him say when he’s had a bad night. Everyone should be as lucky to play as well as he does on his bad nights...😊
Funny anecdote - I was going to Berklee at the time and Pat and Lyle were playing at Stony Brook University ( Incredible concert ). Between songs, Pat says to all of us “ What song do you want to hear ? “
I yelled “ Whipping Post “ He and everyone laughed and they started playing it. Pat even jumped up on the bass drum ! I wonder if he remembers it....🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
@@jamiemorgan4146 wow, I thought Whipping Post is a Zappa song.
Man pat is an very intelligent human being ! And the way he’s improvise on the guitar is just divine ! The greatest jazz guitar player ever ! And I really mean it ! 👑 🎸
Pat Metheny is an incredible musician full stop, one of the very best ❤
He’s spot on. It takes a great deal of time to learn a language. Jazz improvisation is a language. The only way to master it is to ‘speak’ it for a long time.
Also, you “ Must “ speak the language with the correct accent. I believe that’s what Pat meant, when he said, “ You have to have a strong sense of Bebop language “
Jamie Morgan totally agree. That’s what sets jazz apart from classical. With enough hours, anyone can achieve performance level in classical music, but no matter how much you practice jazz. the hours mean nothing of you don’t have the chops. It is the perfect music through which to express one’s soul in the moment imo.
@@jazzman2516 There was this kid at Berklee, that cut his chops on “ Jerry Garcia” .
Everything this Ass played ( he was actually an Ass as a person😐) came out sounding just like Jerry’s playing..
imagine him comping standards with a JG feel! 😩😩😩😩😩😩
Jerry is great in the Dead and for being himself, not Jazz..
I agree with you on improvising a Jazz solo, It’s an art. As you’ve written, you get your notes to play in a classical piece, yes it still needs feel and interpretation, but Jazz, if you’re playing well will come out different every time you solo...
It will still sound like you, but different.
Beautiful. He didn’t try to chalk it up to some power and what he said was still so powerful. Very, very cool.
Pat Metheny had said once be the worst player in the band..it makes sense..be humble and all knowledge will come to you.Learn all the tools, triads scales, changes, harmony and then forget it and all that will kick in ..in the proper setting .
It’s significant that he is saying he is working on creating something new in a confinement of modern jazz theory that was considered to have reached the ceiling of creativity back in 50’s. It’s basically doing complex things while sounding great and he has succeeded that. He made a great contributions to music.
So great to hear him refer to it as grammar! That's what I tell my students ask the time. Theory is the extrapolation of concepts from a large body of research; knowing that a topic Major chord has a M7 in it is grammar!
Not explanation, but representation.
I use grammar as a reference to dj’ing. Specifically poetry. Everyone uses words. But a real poet can turn those words into something special. A dj has the same records as anyone else. It’s how you play those records off of each other that makes something special. Music is a special language art that takes time and understanding to completely connect with. I love that I can always learn something new in music too. It seems endless and circular at the same time.
It's not actually grammar though, that's just a comparison. Stop getting hung up on the minutia.
It’s like learning a new language. You start by learning the words, grammar, ear training (listening to native speakers speak) and putting yourself in situations where you practice the language, you mess up, you make a fool of yourself, etc. But, you keep doing it and doing it until you reach a level of fluency when you can talk about subjects (weather, sports, whatever). It takes years and years of practice to the point, as Pat says, you don’t need to stop and think about the grammar as much. It flows out of you.
How come someone who's so bloody talented and such a magnificent musician, can still have such great hair? Love the shirt too.
Well said!
@@jasperwilliams4651 Yes, a notable shirt. I guess this was prior to Pat's discovery of horizontally-striped shirts...
LOL
@@sheltr9735 Hi, he always wore his horizontally striped shirts when he performed with the Pat Metheny Group. I think he had a different kind of shirt for his other bands. Been seeing Pat since the 1980s (first at Toad's Place in New Haven, CT). RIP Lyle Mays....
@@sheltr9735 This was 90s, so post-striped shirt.
He hasn't had "such great hair" for a long time. This clip is approx 30 yrs old. For the past 10+ yrs, Pat has been wearing a wig, which looks ridiculous. I know his hair was sort of his trademark, and no one is immune to vanity, but his hair isn't why we love Pat. It's common for a man in his 60s to have hair loss. We'd be accepting of that--it's part of life--I wish he could be, because seeing him in that helmet he dons is just sad.
Great video. Thanks
Thanks for sharing
Well said...love this guy!
love this... love the honesty... very well stated... very very true...
Brilliance and humility.
Fine pat I’ll go practice my Parker Omni book. I’ve been playing guitar for 25 plus years and just now barely starting to get bebop right. Pats a genius, but more importantly he is kind open and patient. Nah just gonna listen to a Metheny record.
The two most helpful things for my musical development have been the amazing slow down app- ie extensive transcribing- and attending Barry Harris classes which can now be found on TH-cam. Both are far better than the omnibook. Good luck
Superb explanation.
excellent answer
Excellent information. The road ahead can be traversed albeit slowly.
Quite articulate! Very nice 👍🏼
Without a teacher who is super competent one can waste a lifetime trying to figure it out. Like he said he grew up around guys that fueled him and had access to the source most of us aren’t so lucky. Hard to say you will be worth anything if you only learn out of a book or TH-cam videos.
Has Pat written a textbook? If not, he should. It’s important.
Bill Evans talks about the process clearly in the "Universal Mind of Bill Evans".
Gracias
About your subject.. Improvisation.. And Theory.. I like your explanation.. I wondered Why so difficult.. Even if I am not Musician.. It seems it is a laungauge.. If.. You have the talent to learn this.. It is like learning another musical laungauge..
🎉❤bom ver todo mundo estudando música, cada músico uma idéia
Pat and Gary are right. Improvisation is the way you speak, theory is the stuff that you learn first from your parents and then all the language and grammar courses you take in school to learn how to speak and sometimes write, fluently.
It’s possible to speak a language extremely well enough to communicate with anyone as well as impress a lot of people with your command of words, it’s not at all important to understand the theory behind the language you are speaking just as it’s not important to understand music theory to be an amazing musician. With time and exposure, just like the Language of words we will learn what sound great with something else. In this way you will naturally understand the patterns related to theory, but not the unnecessary words which are used to explain music theory when talking about it. It begs the question, what amount of knowledge actually counts as theoretical understanding?
@@corneliousism why do you pride yourself in your Ignorance? You can throw darts at a board in a dark room all day and eventually you will get a bullseye, but if you turn the lights on even just for a minute you will have much more consistent success
@@ianrags your analogy is pretty weak. Possibly the complete opposite of what you tried to convey Adding loads of words, basically creates another obstacle between your ears, eyes, mind and fingers. You don’t need to fully understand the theoretical physics of motion to be the best dart player in the world.
What makes a good dart player is consistency and acquiring muscle memory. Same with music.
Why are are you salty about me saying music theory isn’t needed? Did you waste time studying it and only manage to become a mediocre musician? Do you think Django or Charlie Christian wasted time learning the words to explain whatvthey we’re playing? Hell no! Music is just patterns, it doesn’t need words
Knowledge must lead intuition or you will flounder sooner or later……even Freddie Hubbard.
Bee bop language (theory covers a lot) more. I see comments referring to David Gilmore licks over bee bop runs. Anytime you see full on experienced bee bop guy David gillmore is not threat. To a jazz guys, chords on shine on crazy you diamond’ just basic fundamentals. When a Rock guitarist learns ‘shine on crazy diamond’ it’s like holy grail of chord changes..I felt accomplished. I learned a shit load from Floyd affiliate Boomer blues.
I've been playing for many years .. I've tried Classical, Blues, Country etc .. Jazz is probably the most challenging .. a good challenge though :)
An interesting question then is, what about the listeners?
I myself have only a basic musical education, but no theoretical knowledge of more complex chord progressions. Still, after decades of listening to masters like Pat, Miles, Wayne, Herbie, Bill, Freddie, etc., I have an inkling of the next chord. So I would immodestly say I understand the language very well by now, but can neither speak it nor describe it. And there remains a slightly unsatisfying feeling that I can't. On the other hand, the musicians are certainly happy about everyone who only already understands them 😄
He said he gets bored with any music not rooted in the Bebop language. I'm not like that at all. More and more, I find happiness in the simplest music. It's really the phrasing and timing I like -- not necessarily how it describes complex chords.
A good analogy , forming language from thought, but in another interview he mentions Soul. That almost undefined quality. As a player for decades I know when I hear someone playing from their Soul. And my improv is at its highest when the pathway between my soul and mind is more open. How this is accomplished is the real question.....
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ 🎓🎸🎓⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
A Great Video by Gary Burton is on here.
It’s called : Improv Class - Gary Burton.
It’s long and is exactly what Pat was saying about Gary. You’ll need to have a lot under your belt to understand it.
I’m positive that Pat knows about “Lenny Breau” Amazing ,Amazing, Amazing ✔️
I do wish Pat was a little more open-minded in some regards to more modern approaches to musicality. I understand that he probably witnessed at least a few ignorant musicians who refused to learn music theory (or some form of it) when it would've benefitted them greatly, but that isn't an excuse for not tolerating/accepting the value of musiciansip outside of western music theory in all cases. I'm not denying that music theory can be extremely useful in most musical disciplines, but there is also a whole world of music outside of the bounds of traditional music theory. That's just my two cents, though.
[EDIT 12/6/22]: It appears that my statement has not been taken well after five or so months since I originally wrote it. I would like to clarify that I am a HUGE Pat Metheny fan. He is/was an amazing musician who has been an inspiration for me. I would also like to add that I don't really agree with my original statement anymore. I think I must've misunderstood Pat at the time. My knowledge in music theory and history has grown quite a bit since five months ago, and I have different views now. I'm very young and don't always know what I'm talking about lol.
Lars or Lard whoever the heck you are, you can keep your opinion to yourself you obscure wannabe unknown dirtbag, insulting other musicians makes you an arrogant dickhead
I agree 100%. It was honestly such a pretentious argument for him to make. I'm someone that has a fairly solid understanding of chord-scale theory, but I honestly find it boring when I hear guys just shred bebop lines at 250bpm forever. Sometimes it's nice to hear David Gilmore bend whole notes and noodle with pentatonics
Totally agree. But he was honest, he said "'I'm a conservative" and said that HE gets bored. It's his approach. To me its no surprise that the music I like the most from his career, is the one he made when he was younger and had less "knowledge".
@@TrevWings I think Metheny would agree that notes without melody is boring. He is adamant that melody is king. Plus, Metheny uses plenty of pentatonics!
Please tell us where to find "A whole world of music outside of the bounds of traditional music theory"? It's all based on Pythagorean Overtone Series (POS) - be it indian, african, asian or western. POS defines our (ethnian unrelated) feel for consonance or dissonance in melody. And that's that.
Metheny said, he just thinks w/out ->bebop
Intelligent and articulate. Not something I associate with TH-cam or anything on USA media these days.
This is why the current scene is the music is limited and almost struck. It not coming from how Pat learned it coming from schools. It not coming from guys who are really living it. Still some going on but with limited live playing space musicians just don't have the ability to just gig until u get better,to just hangout.
If I'm correct :
It's 1989 at the Hague Royal conservatory in the Netherlands.
Q&A after masterclass
The interviewer sounds dutch indeed.
@@geraldillo it wasn't an interview, but random students asking questions.
A Q&A
@@VincentvanHessen In that case the student asks very good questions...
@@geraldillo 😊
I was too young and too shy to ask questions in that Q&A (rotating microphone)
just sat and listened hoping to learn something
@@VincentvanHessen But you were there; that must have been inspiring!
I’ve seen the full video ,it has some great playing but it may have been taken down for some reason
Post the full video
Thank you so much for this! Do you have the full masterclass video?
Your welcome. No but i think it is on youtube.
@@jeremylive31500we can't find it can u help us ?
@@jeremylive31500 Not any more, it has been removed, sadly :(
Why isn’t he wearing a striped shirt?
@@mikejamieson419
In the laundry. 😁👍🏼
Respect. It takes a lot of work. Good musicianship doesn't grow on trees.
they grow in the wood shed
There’s something so Mr. Rogers about Pat Metheny’s demeanor.
You obviously haven't seen that infamous backstage footage with the groupies.
Joke - there is no such footage & I agree, he comes over as a really nice guy. Watch the Rick Beato interview as well it's fascinating
Agreed. In addition to that being his nature he grew up in Missouri near Unity Village, the world headquarters for the Unity Church. He never drank alcohol, never smoked and as best I know has been married only once to the woman that he is still married to. Not a very "wild" guy at all. So yep, quite Mr. Rogers-like. Rogers was a Presbyterian minister and played jazz piano!
@@Nagroddy With the added benefit that he is still alive and playing! In the Beato inverview Metheny says that one reason he didn't get into alcohol and drugs was that he saw other musicians die from the abuse -- that and observing how performances often suffered as the night wore on.
the importance of bebop language!
I'm surprised that he didn't say blues is the foundation because Bebop and all jazz for that matter is based on the blues. Everybody he mentioned were great blues and rhythm changes players.
Learning the grammar of improvisation…
The secret is take some beer and jam along the tune or song coming out and your pocket get full of gold, some old trix is to take a song or tune and play it backwards, then jamming around it,,,,sorry my bad english...
🙂🙂🙂
I would listen to Pat Metheny soling over 50 random chords.
That's why I play blues not jazz. Not that I'm a great blues player but jazz is way over my head. Just an amateur so I got lots of other things to worry about.
When is Pat going to do a duet with Kenny G?
When Kenny can hold a triad for over one minute... sorry, couldnt resist
I would like to listen to Metheny when he plays Donna Lee. So we can say, for instance, Eric Johnson who just appeared on the right of my youtube, is kinda boring.
Some of Pat's work is the best I've heard, recent work some of the worst I've heard
Practice practice practice, study study study, listen listen listen!!! Enough of this “I tried for a week, let’s see how many likes I can get online!!!”
It was reported that after this interview, wildlife professionals very carefully approached Metheny from behind and grabbed the mangy raccoon that had attached itself to the back of Pat's head. It was sent off for rabies testing.
Pat thinks from a educated version of music and the majority of people do not. Most people play by ear and do not know theory or why they are playing what they are playing they just know it sounds good. His way of thinking is the result and going to school for music and really studying theory. That is a good thing and a bad thing. When you learn rules then you will say oh that not right even tho it sounds right to you. Either way, music was ment to be listen too not scientifically analyzed. Listen to blues players most have no idea what they are playing theory wise, they just know the language from listening to the blues players before them.
Interesting. he is bored with players who aren't versed in be bop. I find the majority of bebop players play the same licks, the same lack of ideas, the same high-fast-loud mindset, and they are boring. I forget who said this (and I paraphrase) - A good player can play what he hears in his mind. A really good player plays what he thinks. A great player is what he thinks. It's all about what ideas a musician wants to convey. Bebop is like shredding - jam in as many notes at a time as one is technically able. But I think that is a lot like a Valley Girl just babbling.
No....
In an age of constant distractions and instant gratification.... these are 2 things that DO NOT help with improvising and/or growing with your instrument.
I don't play, but hearing Metheny say bebop is the root of all he does makes me think of his tendency to play constant streams of notes. Only sometimes does a blues phrasing feature more predominantly in his playing. A player that reminded me of that side of Metheny's music is David Becker. If Pat veers towards bebop, Becker veers towards blues as a player. Often I can enjoy his playing more than Pat's because if he takes a solo the phrasing remains "the thing", rather than playing over chord changes as quickly as possible, which is where most of Pat's solos go. Maybe Pat actually got "too good" at playing bebop! He races ahead and forgets about good phrasing. It can be a thrill to hear Pat play so much guitar. But often I say to myself he could say more by playing less.
Check out Pat’s solo on ‘Spiritual’. It’s a great lesson on minimalism, and one of his greatest solos ever.
You haven’t listened to enough Pat Metheny if this is your opinion of his playing.
Wrong
God in a body.
Then pray to Pat on FINAL JUDGEMENT since he is a very vocal ATHEIST maybe no one will hear you?
Pat is a good player….he’s no Kenny G, but he’s good.
LMAO 😆... Now that’s a great joke...
I've never had to "learn" improvisation. Music is sound, and, due to the same congenital defect in the development of the left parietal lobe of my brain that led to my dyscalculia, musical notation is indecipherable gibberish to me. Because I can hear music with no trouble at all, listening is how I know it. So, as I have learned various musical instruments, all "by ear," naturally, I have learned improvisation, as a natural extension. I don't know any other way. Talking to me about music theory is like talking to me about algebra, trigonometry or calculous. Music is sound, not notation. I don't "read" it, I hear it.
You referred to yourself 13 times.
That's essentially what Metheny is saying. And I think 90% of people would agree with you that formalized music is gibberish.
But research shows that some explicit knowledge of grammar aids in development.
You're lucky in that you have a knack (or maybe just confidence) for improvising but it wouldn't hurt to be aware of theory basics or the rudiments of notation. For instance, so you can see the contours of a melody.
I've embarked on the journey to learn improvisation recently myself.
Good luck!
who's interviewing you ?
I'm looking for who asked
Sad
Sorry Pat, there is no such thing as "50 unrelated chords" (or even close). I'm going to go ahead and say 3. Cheers
That is why i am not a fan a Pat Metheny. He has his Arrogant ways. He puts down other players music, and other players.
Hello Jeremy… I thank you for uploading this wonderful video. I would really love to add Spanish subtitles to it, so my friends and the Spanish speaking musicians in general could enjoy it as well. Would that be ok with you? Of course, I would do it for free. If you are interested, please send me an email address so I can send you the text.
Your welcome. My email jeremy.bonneau.31@gmail.com