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He gets it, but "don't trust your ears" is a little misleading because it is reactionary to "just trust your ears." It is really "be skeptical of how your brain/expectations are impacting what you think your ears are telling you."
Hmmm, not sure about this........as before long into the video, we have "I just prefer the Magnepan over the KEFs". This is all about trusting your ears to say what you prefer.
@@davidb9682 Having preferences does not mean he isn't engaging in a skeptical approach to evaluating his preferences. But sure, tell him he is wrong about his own skepticism. He literally says that he doesn't trust his ears repeatedly. But you have to understand what he means when he says that
@@ccbowers "Who you gonna believe - me or your lying eyes?" (Groucho Marx) Okay, so Mark comes along and offers "Who you gonna believe - me or your lying ears?" I mean uh ... this is the comment Steve ranks highest on the thread and only now, you might you know, guess why.
CHILL IS RIGHT! So important. It is not that there's no difference or no possibility of improvement with small changes, new cables, etc etc. It's that those changes are small, and for that small improvement you get distracted from enjoying what you have.
Thanks Steve for an interesting and thought provoking interview. About Mark's skepticism, I would add that on more than one occasion I have found that I bought something I thought was exactly what I wanted (and not only an audio component), but when I got it home and used it for awhile, I became progressively less enchanted with it. Sometimes the influence might have been the showroom was too different from my home, other times it may have been that the enthusiasm of the sales person had been infectious. In any case, I now appreciate the no questions asked, month or longer in home test period that on-line purchases provide, even if the cost of returning an item is not insignificant. With audio equipment in particular, immediate early impressions, especially when they are impressions guided by a second party with their own preferences and biases, can't be trusted to provide long lasting satisfaction.
One of the best interviews that I have heard from you. I like and agree with his skepticism concerning his own consciousness of what his ears are delivering to his brain; not so sure about his distinction between audiophile and music lover. I think an audiophile cares about the gear for the sake of the sound quality. One can listen to music and enjoy it over pretty crappy gear- just consider the generation or two that grew up listen to music on what we used to call earphones (In Ear Microphones, IEMs). For many, music is the background of your life, having something playing is like breathing; but when you stop to listen . . . then you start the journey toward becoming an audiophile (literally, ‘lover of sound’). My 2 cents.
Good talk. I can relate to a lot of what Mark says and his impressions of his equipment, past and present; how equipment performs in your living space can be so different than hearing it elsewhere. Also the difficulty of finding new music instead of hitting the old stuff again and again, and the revelation that even if you know the placebo effect exists, that doesn’t make you immune to it.
Very good conversation. Two people with sometimes contradictonary views on things but a lot of respect for eachother. Sometimes I think my ears play tricks on me. Not sure if I can always trust them...
Placebo effect. Never heard this expression before, but so right!... never trust your first hours of 'experience' with a new element in your system. No matter the wow effect it can bring, wait it to settle in, the placebo to dissolve, ... then re assess this 'new entry' in your system. (this implies, IMO, to ALWAYS test a new device in your system at home). Thanks Steve for this exchange of views with Marc!
At 9:50 the tonal balance changing with tiny adjustments is something you can avoid if you're tired of it. Coaxial speakers like Kali, KEF (mentioned in the video), and Genelec The Ones solve this problem both horizontally and vertically as you or the speakers move. Something to think about if you're tired of your head being in a vice. Curious to see why he likes the Magnepans more than the KEFs, as panel speakers have really bad distortion with even midbass, and he's even talking about how the KEF speakers sound larger... Likely since they have excellent controlled and even dispersion. Curious about how similarly large KEFs would sound to him.
Excellent. Thanks for sharing your accumulated, valued wisdom as a long time audiophile! An old friend of Steve Guttenvurhis a friend of mine! I discovered I was an audiophile back in 1979, aged 16, writing what became a long 20 page detailed paper on putting together a $50,000 audiophile system, in 1979 dollars, which earned me a grade of A+ from my music teacher.
being a 'deep 'senior its illuminating to hear your older guest audiophiles who's opinions & experiences sometimes mirror mine , sometimes not then I learn something new ...cheers
Listening to Mark and Steve's discussion allowed me to better understand and explain my audiophile experience. Great to hear Mark's opinion and recognition that a listening experience is influenced by inconsistent factors like adrenaline. Also, there was a lot of detail in his words that he didn't say out loud. If you take the exact, specific words that are presented by Mark you'll hear one thing, but if you listen to understand what else was there but not directly stated, you'd hear and understand something very different. Like a good mastering or recording, there was more to be detected if you listened with the right ear and certain experience. Truly an enjoyable conversation to have been able to listen to. Thank you both.
Interesting comments on the Kef. I think the biggest problem re: their not being able to play too loud is the size of his room - way too big for those speakers. He should try the R3 Metas.
Good and relevant conversation. Enjoyed the content covered. Mark’s definition of an audiophile vs. a music lover is spot on but I will add that being a music lover can be a less expensive hobby vs. a audiophile.
When he said the KEF's become distorted real fast, it makes me wonder if he was using them in conjunction with a subwoofer-- but here's the critical part-- and I believe this is true with JUST ABOUT ANY bookshelf speaker-- was he using a HIGH pass filter on the KEF's to block out the Low frequency SLAMS that cause large cone excursions and generate a lot of distortion in small drivers that cannot reproduce those frequencies. My own experience is, that using a HIGH pass filter (through my Mini DSP 2x4HD) makes a HUGE difference in sound quality.
As it is obvious every filtering creates time shifts - hopefully location of subwoofer and spakers may up to degree compensate it. I choosen rather to listen not louder than say 85 dB in favour of not to set more spakers and filtering.
You know the main point is that the KEFs didn't work best with Mark's amplifier or room and uh ... he plunked for the stuff that worked best. Using a High Pass etc is ... (sigh), being a little vague as to why people are even doing that. Remember there is a placebo effect that is very real but ... is it even true? It's all very subjective and the truth is that given an amplifier and speaker that worked best in your room, would you even agree that it worked best? Nope ... we just decide what we like best.
I own the LS-50 Meta’s and can confirm that in my room (14ft x 10ft) they played as loud as I wanted without any distortion (we’re talking electronic music, rock, etc. with thumping bass). In fact, I couldn’t believe the bass they put out. I also tried them in my main listening room (24ft x 20 ft) and they could not properly load the room, no surprise. I have the R3’s in that room now and the sound is excellent - floorstander quality bass and same pinpoint soundstage as the LS-50s. I now have the R3 Metas on order, can’t wait.
The ONLY thing I trust is my ears. Maybe it's the old punk rocker in me - but if it sounds good, it is good. Now, the cool thing about audio is that you can be any sort of audiophile and still enjoy it (analog, digital, records, CD's, measurements, no measurements, etc). It's a big enough world for us all to enjoy our music and gear in the way we want. Which reminds me - I need to pack up my polite Spendor speakers and haul out my Cerwin Vega's and rock out!
Wisdom in a world of division. Tbh I feel like youtubers and reviewers excentuate the 'audiophile' mythos as it creates a lot of comments . Its an interesting topic but it from a perspective of whos right and whos wrong, which is just childish and doesnt help anyone.
This hobby is so individual. Nobody is the same, our age, where we were born and were we live and so many things. We have to respect other oppinions. Greetings, Ludo Belgium
Great video. Personally Ive abandoned tape measures and marking tape on the floor 30 years ago. Ive resolved to temporarily taping a small mirror between the tweeter and larger cone. Like a pocket mirror on the sweet spot of your speakers. And if you can see your eyes similarly from where you sit on both sides. BAM you got center. Trick I learned from working with George Augsberger back in the 90's
But then You have judgement of only direction. Distance plays role too. Best is to use constant noise and by listening find center by ears - it should be in the same position as done by mirror. - unfortunately there is only one center which may be aligned to left or right ear or in middle which is compromise.
Hi Steve, WOW!!! This video I enjoyed so very much. I like hearing sometimes about other people's experiences with audio. So much fun. Thanks!!! Until next time which I hope is sooner then later!!
If you want to hear into the recording as he mentions, then buy a pair of studio monitors in the near field, or use headphones, if you want to fill a room with lush, warm, enjoyable music then get a pair of hifi speakers, as large as your room will take, sit back and enjoy the music without analysis.
Great interview. I recently reached out to audio science review asking where the sweet spot was between subjective and objective reviews. Amir was kind enough to give me the highlights and a link to one of his reviews where he explained the tests, data and what’s important. That and our own secret sauce should offer better purchases.
Interesting views and most are applicable to the past and current audio gear world. I'm of similar age and what I've learned over decades with audio and home theater is that not listening to conventional wisdom from some dealers/reviewers is a big leap forward. Go your own way, break the rules, follow the paradigm sound in your own head. Use streaming music to discover more genres and artists and be more open minded. What sounds great should supersede what sounds OK and familiar. The one thing I hoped would have happened since I started on this audio road in the late 1960's was that there would eventually be universal connectors for audio and home theater gear. It's starting to happen but it's way too slow, still too fragmented and overtly profit oriented. Cheers!
And yet you can hear subtle to significant differences on a revealing system that aren't supposed to be there according to the data. The scientific method precludes definitive claims about differences our current methods of testing may not be detecting.
I think of my self as an audiophile, but I am definitely a music lover. I stream, I play records and cd's. Streaming mostly, because it is so convenient. I gravitate toward equipment that makes the music sound natural to me. Currently I have a Willsenton R300 tube amp and Zu DW speakers. This is a wonderful pairing to me. Smooth beautiful sound and plenty of volume! I do trust my ears. In the sense that, if it sounds good to me, that's all that matters. I like these kind of interviews, with real people describing what they like about their own gear and music they listen to.
UHF magazine which existed in Canada recommended to attend as much as possible live shows (Better acoustic ones) for tuning your hears, so you get it how music sounds and makes you feel... So that is the aim for building our music system, trust your hears and body state...
I have two copies of the same record and want to get rid of one. This morning I listened to both to decide which one sounded better, going back and forth between the two. Unfortunately, the best sounding pressing kept changing.
Love your channel. With reference to this topic, the whole point is to enjoy the music, at the end of a hard day relaxing to music that you feel is what you expect from it. If you don't trust your own years (even if like me who can hear up to only about 12k) then you are going to listen to music that you don't enjoy. In my young days I used to listen to music that did not sound well because I did not want to touch the tone control of my Audiolab or any other amp. But at the end of the day I feel that you should not feel bad to tweak you system to make it sound enjoyable, right now I am enjoying my DIY OB with DSP sending the signal to Tube amps, and the OB 15" sub powered by a old Naim amp. Sound gorgeous to my ears, I trust my ears (right or wrong) ( incidently I tune my guitar by ear and when comparing with a digital tuner it is almost 99% accurate) - so thats good enough for me.
This was very good. Mark has the correct approach when it comes to enjoying music. No analogue v digital red herrings, just enjoying the music whatever the source. I parted company with my Maggies (mg 12) as I feel they were too fussy about positioning and that feeling that 1 more inch would get me finally there. I now have Graham Audio LS6f's which both measure well (BBC esque) sound musical and are placed very near the front wall. As you said in your review Steve, the last pair of speakers you will ever buy. Lessons for you Steve in this one I would say. Nice one Mark. Thanks Steve.
"Music lovers use their equipment to listen to their music. Audiophiles use their music to listen to their equipment". Not my quote. And yes, I felt it, all across my 5 different stereo set ups, 6 headphones, and 10+ IEMs. Addiction is real...and very pleasant :)
This passion is about the journey as much as it is about the lessons learned. The lessons set us on new paths that are also inexhaustible. Some chase high end but there's really only no end.
Now this is something that i wanted to see in the audiphilliac show... This!! This is a proper really complete show. In a bad review you dont have to trash anything, you just need to be like this guy. I trully apreciate this. There are pros and cons and you will chose what you like if you like... Of course if there will be a small sound sample at the end after the viewer sistem of the day then this will be a really complete treat. 😇
Trust your ears, not your wallet. DIY it as much as possible. Get the family involved (my 7-year old daughter helped me build my Altec A7s). Crazy power not necessary. Above all, enjoy the music!
In the end what makes many people happy is finding a system that duplicates the sound inside your head along with involving the emotional side of your brain and makes you want to jump up and play air guitar, a mood shifting machine.
The problem we experience at a much greater level is the relationship of the manufacturer to the declared or undeclared reviewer. There is a TH-camr in the mens retail clothing industry as a buyer for a major retail organization. He has a channel where manufacturers fall over themselves sending him their products (very expensive products) for his 'review'. These are not for review-only as they are delivered to his measurements and he is allowed to keep the items He is invited to their global factories and wined and dined. The viewer is supposed to believe his reviews are totally unbiased and the products he chooses to review spontaneously come-to-mind. Those companies that choose not to 'play the game' are at a severe disadvantage as TH-cam is a powerful marketing as well as entertainment platform. Influencers (Kardashians and others) have polluted commerce as anyone can claim to be an industry expert today.
Great interview Steve. Always fun to hear how others have made their journey. Your guest contradicts himself a number of times regarding believing his ears or not but that’s ok. None of us are perfect. 😂
"Doesn't trust his ears." I believe what Mark means is that he doesn't let his ears determine his preference. He wants to get close to what the instruments and voices actually sound like in their environment, as opposed to what he as a listener finds to be the most pleasing sound. (I'm happy with the latter myself.) I reckon he ignores the advertising blurbs that go on about "warmth" and "smoothness" and such.
Twisting the toe in slightly inward makes the sound stage rise up. Distance between them establishes the mids field and lows. Pulling them out into the room makes them boom more and get tigher in the mids. Back more tightens up the bass. I look at my 1.7i more as drivers and the room is the cabinet. Finding the best location to energy the room as opposed to throwing sound at you like a box does.
@@bencausey Once I get past a reasonable distance, 3' maybe, I find more "fatness" than depth. Everything gets bigger. Closer back and things tighten up some. Almost to the point of wanting them in different places for different albums.
Ordinary speakers create artificial "point source" imagery. Maggies propel faithfully produced waveforms with exceptional phase-fidelity. It's applied physics. Maggies are tricky when it comes to the "sweet spot," but the sweet spot is much sweeter than the other speakers.
I would say anyone who values audio equipment over the feelings of a significant partner has screwed up priorities , but it takes all kinds of people to make a world.
I'd rather have speakers that colour all music into sounding musically great than something that isn't half as enjoyable and shows me, what, the defects and noise of the equipment it was recorded with? I come to realise I prefer whatever brings me closer to the melodies and emotions within a song than something that pulls me away from focusing on the music and rather on the audio.
Agreed, mostly. New music on Qobuz is the first thing I check out daily. Liked Mark's description of music lover vs audiophile listening - I have a foot firmly in both camps! I believe I'm on my final speakers with the Magnepan LRS and Kef LS50 with stereo REL subs. (2 systems in 13x20ft rooms). The kefs are even magical with FM static, which they present as a 3D soundfield. 🎶🎶 🎵☺️🎵 🎶🎶
Re: "Foot firmly in both camps." Yes! I didn't elaborate on music lovers vs. audiophiles, but I think most audiophiles are also music lovers. We all fall somewhere along the bell curve; very few are at the extreme ends.
It MAY not all sound good, but the fact is that it CAN all sound good, which is why I agree with Mark. I like analog AND digital sources, it’s really the appropriate attitude.
Ive been calibrating my sound system using both my ears and autocal by GLM (Genelec system). Im 15 hours into my manual calibration (using my ears) and the system is now just right because of mye manual cal. The huge difference to get everything right was to experiment with delays on every individual speaker, 0.11 ms delay made the trick between L n R in both my rooms. The system now owns the room on very low volumes, and the speakers is basicly working together rather then canceling each other out. The feed back I get from social gatherings is something like «Ive never experienced being emerced in music at such low volumes». The autocal sure helped balance the EQs though. Ive also done manuel EQ after the GLM eq.
I find it hard to believe that people are still talking about these kef LS50s. They are speakers that do nothing for me, but not everyone has to like what I like.
I only trust my ears when I do my speaker placement, always. Looking at speakers adds bias. This guy is right. Just moving speakers a millimeter changes the sound. Especially toe-in.
this video is great. i actually feel like i might align pretty closely with mark's views, as an owner of LRS's (and also someone who has started thinking i might need a good 'comparison' speaker to set beside them)
I'm a little surprised Mark seems to use a listening chair with a high / head-height back. I've read and experienced that this can create unwanted reflections.
Couldn't agree more. After whole many years I discovered the same - it is the emotion at first, not celebrated perfection which is also very pleasant . I do not care so much if sysem giveme or not give me the comfort of full detail -. system should be capable to pass equally moody music in very natural moody way and very annoying and aggresive i the same natural way as I enjouyed it in past. My colege calls it "yapping" aro "high pitched din" but if it feels my expectation and lifts my soul I want it.
Maggie's are beamy to me, you have to hold your head in a vice! Listened to 3.7's in J'ville and me and a friend couldn't get a proper soundstage except for the sweet spot...we had to stack for both of us to hear properly....they're not for me.
You shouldn't base your decisions purely upon 'trusting your ears' if you are overly invested in critical listening. If you are constantly comparing various sonic categories in A-B-A listening tests, you can go wrong in a multitude of ways. But if you can listen for the gestalt of the sound and appreciate how much emotional music has on you, based upon listening to a new component, then you are on the right path. You should still try at home, at length, and not sell anything until you are sure you have bettered it. This will limit expensive mistakes. But the idea that pure measurements should guide you more than your own ears, especially how you 'feel' about what you are hearing, is ridiculous. If it's not about what you hear, or subjectively like, then what's the point of music? Have we forgotten that music is meant to be about what you hear and feel? The key is to get away from Critical Listening Syndrome and not allowing a cold, calculation of what you are hearing to wipe away how the music makes you feel.
Many a great point/explanation in there. I like hearing about experienced audiophiles that are using digital RIAA. I have been using it for a while. I often get the suggestion that I should really get a "proper" analog phono pre. Nope!
Very interesting topics this time.. In context of measurements vs subjective judgement: I guess this shouldn’t be opposites but, different approaches in different situations: measurements to track and support product development, followed by critical listening (as even the most systematic measurement program might not cover all aspects, especially in newer technologies); at home, when I put my system together, I have only subjective assessment available, and it is cheesy bordering to insulting to support each and every finding with a double blind test (the ASR community demands that, in case you offer the subjective impression, a highend usb cable would sound different in my system (!) than a 3€ edition). So, both absolutely have their justification, neither of them is complete or sufficient (well, listening is the purpose of it all, but good luck developing a better DAC via listening tests alone). I do trust my ears, but I wait for confirmation the following days, with different records, etc.. so that my subjective evaluation (think of jitterbug in or better out?) stretches over a wider time frame, set of records, moods, different shapes of myself and my hearing abilities. So that my subjective judgement reaches a little deeper than a 3min double blind test. Also important is the question of interpretation of subjective findings: they are (hopefully) valid for the system used, but maybe nowhere else.. (where that exact same collection of tweakery isn’t combined in the same fashion).
I used to have a pair of LRS. I got rid of them and have since rearranged my room, added a second sub and acquired a more powerful amp. I wish I still had them :(
On streaming: The great thing about record collecting these days is you can check before you buy! And unfortunately I keep liking new stuff too much not to buy it on vinyl (if I can find it).
How can we like too much? Don't unleash the female relatives on my comment but how is liking stuff unfortunate? You know it suggests a miserly view of scarcity thinking.
Your ears are the most important tool when it comes to music obviously! Liking how the music sounds is what it's all about, certainly trust your ears! What you shouldn't trust is "spectrographs" (did I spell that correctly? )and other visual tools, for they have nothing to do with hearing! If an artist sounds like their right in front of you, what more do you need! Not trusting your ears for something that requires your ears is just ludicrous and ridiculous! And that's NOT my opinion, that's TRUTH!!
Be skeptical..for sure.Taste change...if your personal taste change frequently..don't jump to the new flavors of the day.Its expensive. I'm not married. All of my former girlfriends liked my music..and after we broke up I helped them by their first stereo system. Thank you for this post greatly appreciated Steve Guttenberg 🙏.
As a person that has worked as a heavy equipment and truck mechanic for far too long, when I change my set up, I bring in other people to help. I mark where it works for me and mark in general where it works for all the family and friends.
@@keplermission You know, uh...I understand when people speak, they might stutter and pause to say "uhhh", but "uhh" is not something they want to say intentionally. It makes them look not smart. So for you to alway conscientiously write it out seems very strange.
*There’s an Audiophiliac/Steve Guttenberg imposter scamming my viewers, There’s no FREE gifts. DON’T respond! I don't do giveaways or ask for money (except for my Patreon)*
I respond just to mess with them. Ass wipes.
He gets it, but "don't trust your ears" is a little misleading because it is reactionary to "just trust your ears." It is really "be skeptical of how your brain/expectations are impacting what you think your ears are telling you."
yes, I like your way of putting it.
Hmmm, not sure about this........as before long into the video, we have "I just prefer the Magnepan over the KEFs". This is all about trusting your ears to say what you prefer.
@@davidb9682 Having preferences does not mean he isn't engaging in a skeptical approach to evaluating his preferences. But sure, tell him he is wrong about his own skepticism. He literally says that he doesn't trust his ears repeatedly. But you have to understand what he means when he says that
@@ccbowers "Who you gonna believe - me or your lying eyes?" (Groucho Marx) Okay, so Mark comes along and offers "Who you gonna believe - me or your lying ears?" I mean uh ... this is the comment Steve ranks highest on the thread and only now, you might you know, guess why.
Trust your ears. Don't trust your eyes or your aural memory.
FYI - Don’t bring a Mercedes home either without giving the wife a heads up…
CHILL IS RIGHT! So important. It is not that there's no difference or no possibility of improvement with small changes, new cables, etc etc. It's that those changes are small, and for that small improvement you get distracted from enjoying what you have.
Thanks Steve for an interesting and thought provoking interview. About Mark's skepticism, I would add that on more than one occasion I have found that I bought something I thought was exactly what I wanted (and not only an audio component), but when I got it home and used it for awhile, I became progressively less enchanted with it. Sometimes the influence might have been the showroom was too different from my home, other times it may have been that the enthusiasm of the sales person had been infectious. In any case, I now appreciate the no questions asked, month or longer in home test period that on-line purchases provide, even if the cost of returning an item is not insignificant. With audio equipment in particular, immediate early impressions, especially when they are impressions guided by a second party with their own preferences and biases, can't be trusted to provide long lasting satisfaction.
Probably your best upload ever - brilliant.
Thanks so much!
Very fun video! Lots of good lessons, especially to not chase after the next great thing, but find ways to enjoy what we already have.
Steve, I believe that this is one of the most important videos that you have ever done. Thank you.
There can be so many 'right' answers in this hobby. This obviates that point very nicely.
It’s an objective and subjective and technical and emotional interest.
Just watching this video, So valuable , the voice of experience is priceless, thank you both.
One of the best interviews that I have heard from you. I like and agree with his skepticism concerning his own consciousness of what his ears are delivering to his brain; not so sure about his distinction between audiophile and music lover. I think an audiophile cares about the gear for the sake of the sound quality. One can listen to music and enjoy it over pretty crappy gear- just consider the generation or two that grew up listen to music on what we used to call earphones (In Ear Microphones, IEMs). For many, music is the background of your life, having something playing is like breathing; but when you stop to listen . . . then you start the journey toward becoming an audiophile (literally, ‘lover of sound’). My 2 cents.
In ear microphones are for ASMR recording....
IEM usually refers to
In
Ear
Monitors
🎶😉🎶
I was quite entertained listening to Mark. I enjoy hearing about how people navigate this pursuit.
Best video to date!!! Loved this. Thank you. ❤❤❤
Good talk. I can relate to a lot of what Mark says and his impressions of his equipment, past and present; how equipment performs in your living space can be so different than hearing it elsewhere. Also the difficulty of finding new music instead of hitting the old stuff again and again, and the revelation that even if you know the placebo effect exists, that doesn’t make you immune to it.
Very good conversation. Two people with sometimes contradictonary views on things but a lot of respect for eachother. Sometimes I think my ears play tricks on me. Not sure if I can always trust them...
Yeah, good video. Many of their thoughts were agreeable to me..
Fun and fascinating. Enjoyed a lot.
Placebo effect. Never heard this expression before, but so right!... never trust your first hours of 'experience' with a new element in your system. No matter the wow effect it can bring, wait it to settle in, the placebo to dissolve, ... then re assess this 'new entry' in your system. (this implies, IMO, to ALWAYS test a new device in your system at home). Thanks Steve for this exchange of views with Marc!
At 9:50 the tonal balance changing with tiny adjustments is something you can avoid if you're tired of it. Coaxial speakers like Kali, KEF (mentioned in the video), and Genelec The Ones solve this problem both horizontally and vertically as you or the speakers move. Something to think about if you're tired of your head being in a vice.
Curious to see why he likes the Magnepans more than the KEFs, as panel speakers have really bad distortion with even midbass, and he's even talking about how the KEF speakers sound larger... Likely since they have excellent controlled and even dispersion.
Curious about how similarly large KEFs would sound to him.
Excellent. Thanks for sharing your accumulated, valued wisdom as a long time audiophile! An old friend of Steve Guttenvurhis a friend of mine! I discovered I was an audiophile back in 1979, aged 16, writing what became a long 20 page detailed paper on putting together a $50,000 audiophile system, in 1979 dollars, which earned me a grade of A+ from my music teacher.
being a 'deep 'senior its illuminating to hear your older guest audiophiles who's opinions & experiences sometimes mirror mine , sometimes not then I learn something new ...cheers
Superb interview.
Excellent Steve! Bravo
Listening to Mark and Steve's discussion allowed me to better understand and explain my audiophile experience. Great to hear Mark's opinion and recognition that a listening experience is influenced by inconsistent factors like adrenaline. Also, there was a lot of detail in his words that he didn't say out loud. If you take the exact, specific words that are presented by Mark you'll hear one thing, but if you listen to understand what else was there but not directly stated, you'd hear and understand something very different. Like a good mastering or recording, there was more to be detected if you listened with the right ear and certain experience. Truly an enjoyable conversation to have been able to listen to. Thank you both.
Interesting comments on the Kef. I think the biggest problem re: their not being able to play too loud is the size of his room - way too big for those speakers. He should try the R3 Metas.
Good and relevant conversation. Enjoyed the content covered. Mark’s definition of an audiophile vs. a music lover is spot on but I will add that being a music lover can be a less expensive hobby vs. a audiophile.
Have the .7s and really enjoy them, and that purchase was thanks to Steve's recommendation. Great talk and thanks.
Really enjoy the videos of audiophile friends alot! The common sense audiophile, wonderful. More please.
Enjoyed this interview a lot! Skepticism virtuosity trumps placebo from psychoacoustics. He speaks the truth. 👍
Not even in English
When he said the KEF's become distorted real fast, it makes me wonder if he was using them in conjunction with a subwoofer-- but here's the critical part-- and I believe this is true with JUST ABOUT ANY bookshelf speaker-- was he using a HIGH pass filter on the KEF's to block out the Low frequency SLAMS that cause large cone excursions and generate a lot of distortion in small drivers that cannot reproduce those frequencies. My own experience is, that using a HIGH pass filter (through my Mini DSP 2x4HD) makes a HUGE difference in sound quality.
Sounds logical to me! The JL Audio CR-1 apparently does a great job on this also, but costs rather more.
As it is obvious every filtering creates time shifts - hopefully location of subwoofer and spakers may up to degree compensate it. I choosen rather to listen not louder than say 85 dB in favour of not to set more spakers and filtering.
You know the main point is that the KEFs didn't work best with Mark's amplifier or room and uh ... he plunked for the stuff that worked best. Using a High Pass etc is ... (sigh), being a little vague as to why people are even doing that. Remember there is a placebo effect that is very real but ... is it even true? It's all very subjective and the truth is that given an amplifier and speaker that worked best in your room, would you even agree that it worked best? Nope ... we just decide what we like best.
@Stephen Buck It only goes down to 79Hz, which is obviously a design decision.
I own the LS-50 Meta’s and can confirm that in my room (14ft x 10ft) they played as loud as I wanted without any distortion (we’re talking electronic music, rock, etc. with thumping bass). In fact, I couldn’t believe the bass they put out. I also tried them in my main listening room (24ft x 20 ft) and they could not properly load the room, no surprise. I have the R3’s in that room now and the sound is excellent - floorstander quality bass and same pinpoint soundstage as the LS-50s. I now have the R3 Metas on order, can’t wait.
The ONLY thing I trust is my ears. Maybe it's the old punk rocker in me - but if it sounds good, it is good. Now, the cool thing about audio is that you can be any sort of audiophile and still enjoy it (analog, digital, records, CD's, measurements, no measurements, etc). It's a big enough world for us all to enjoy our music and gear in the way we want. Which reminds me - I need to pack up my polite Spendor speakers and haul out my Cerwin Vega's and rock out!
Wisdom in a world of division. Tbh I feel like youtubers and reviewers excentuate the 'audiophile' mythos as it creates a lot of comments . Its an interesting topic but it from a perspective of whos right and whos wrong, which is just childish and doesnt help anyone.
This hobby is so individual. Nobody is the same, our age, where we were born and were we live and so many things.
We have to respect other oppinions.
Greetings,
Ludo Belgium
Thanks, so true!
Great video. Personally Ive abandoned tape measures and marking tape on the floor 30 years ago. Ive resolved to temporarily taping a small mirror between the tweeter and larger cone. Like a pocket mirror on the sweet spot of your speakers. And if you can see your eyes similarly from where you sit on both sides. BAM you got center. Trick I learned from working with George Augsberger back in the 90's
But then You have judgement of only direction. Distance plays role too. Best is to use constant noise and by listening find center by ears - it should be in the same position as done by mirror. - unfortunately there is only one center which may be aligned to left or right ear or in middle which is compromise.
Hi Steve, WOW!!! This video I enjoyed so very much. I like hearing sometimes about other people's experiences with audio. So much fun. Thanks!!! Until next time which I hope is sooner then later!!
Great interview. I love the infinity speakers in late 80a to 90s when 70% of my listening tune was R&B. 👍🏽🤟🏽
The tragedy of Steve 🤔 .. 🤣 Mark’s a little nutty, too!😉
Pots & kettles…
If you want to hear into the recording as he mentions, then buy a pair of studio monitors in the near field, or use headphones, if you want to fill a room with lush, warm, enjoyable music then get a pair of hifi speakers, as large as your room will take, sit back and enjoy the music without analysis.
Great interview. I recently reached out to audio science review asking where the sweet spot was between subjective and objective reviews. Amir was kind enough to give me the highlights and a link to one of his reviews where he explained the tests, data and what’s important. That and our own secret sauce should offer better purchases.
Hey... Yoy shouldn't have written off the aliens! 👍
“Don’t trust your brain” might be a bit more precise than “don’t trust your ears.” Great work though Mark and Steve
Good point; it’s the brain post processing what you’re hearing.
Thank you Steve, a highly entertaining and enjoyable video! London Steve
Respect, Some Guys are Wise Guys!! Well, your Guest appears to be a Wise Man!! Kudos for « Comfort Food « !! Bill from Northeastern France
Interesting views and most are applicable to the past and current audio gear world. I'm of similar age and what I've learned over decades with audio and home theater is that not listening to conventional wisdom from some dealers/reviewers is a big leap forward. Go your own way, break the rules, follow the paradigm sound in your own head. Use streaming music to discover more genres and artists and be more open minded. What sounds great should supersede what sounds OK and familiar. The one thing I hoped would have happened since I started on this audio road in the late 1960's was that there would eventually be universal connectors for audio and home theater gear. It's starting to happen but it's way too slow, still too fragmented and overtly profit oriented. Cheers!
Protect this man at all costs, great interview
Don't trust your own ears, and don't trust audiophiles who think they have golden ears.
I can hear a field mouse fart from a mile away !!
@@Jimmy-js8mz 🤣🤣
Wise advice!
And yet you can hear subtle to significant differences on a revealing system that aren't supposed to be there according to the data. The scientific method precludes definitive claims about differences our current methods of testing may not be detecting.
If you say so 😂
I have MAGNEPAN ,7s with dual SVS SB-16 Ultra subwoofers.
I think of my self as an audiophile, but I am definitely a music lover. I stream, I play records and cd's. Streaming mostly, because it is so convenient. I gravitate toward equipment that makes the music sound natural to me. Currently I have a Willsenton R300 tube amp and Zu DW speakers. This is a wonderful pairing to me. Smooth beautiful sound and plenty of volume! I do trust my ears. In the sense that, if it sounds good to me, that's all that matters. I like these kind of interviews, with real people describing what they like about their own gear and music they listen to.
If you care about sound quality, you're an audiophile imo.
It doesn't need to be more complicated than that.
Swap out to a Willsenton R8 and Heresy 4's, and the rest of your statement fits me!
@@pnichols6500 Nice! I've thought the Heresey IV's might be a good pairing with the R300 as well, but enjoying my Zu's so much right now. Cheers!
UHF magazine which existed in Canada recommended to attend as much as possible live shows (Better acoustic ones) for tuning your hears, so you get it how music sounds and makes you feel... So that is the aim for building our music system, trust your hears and body state...
I have two copies of the same record and want to get rid of one. This morning I listened to both to decide which one sounded better, going back and forth between the two. Unfortunately, the best sounding pressing kept changing.
He’s perfectly right. And let’s not forget listening fatigue...
Love your channel. With reference to this topic, the whole point is to enjoy the music, at the end of a hard day relaxing to music that you feel is what you expect from it. If you don't trust your own years (even if like me who can hear up to only about 12k) then you are going to listen to music that you don't enjoy. In my young days I used to listen to music that did not sound well because I did not want to touch the tone control of my Audiolab or any other amp. But at the end of the day I feel that you should not feel bad to tweak you system to make it sound enjoyable, right now I am enjoying my DIY OB with DSP sending the signal to Tube amps, and the OB 15" sub powered by a old Naim amp. Sound gorgeous to my ears, I trust my ears (right or wrong) ( incidently I tune my guitar by ear and when comparing with a digital tuner it is almost 99% accurate) - so thats good enough for me.
This was very good. Mark has the correct approach when it comes to enjoying music. No analogue v digital red herrings, just enjoying the music whatever the source. I parted company with my Maggies (mg 12) as I feel they were too fussy about positioning and that feeling that 1 more inch would get me finally there. I now have Graham Audio LS6f's which both measure well
(BBC esque) sound musical and are placed very near the front wall. As you said in your review Steve, the last pair of speakers you will ever buy. Lessons for you Steve in this one I would say. Nice one Mark. Thanks Steve.
"Music lovers use their equipment to listen to their music. Audiophiles use their music to listen to their equipment". Not my quote. And yes, I felt it, all across my 5 different stereo set ups, 6 headphones, and 10+ IEMs. Addiction is real...and very pleasant :)
This passion is about the journey as much as it is about the lessons learned. The lessons set us on new paths that are also inexhaustible. Some chase high end but there's really only no end.
Guys into cars, guns, watches, there's no end.
I found this discussion of psycho-acoustics and the placebo effect very stimulating. I would love more videos exploring this side of audiophilia
Now this is something that i wanted to see in the audiphilliac show... This!!
This is a proper really complete show. In a bad review you dont have to trash anything, you just need to be like this guy. I trully apreciate this. There are pros and cons and you will chose what you like if you like... Of course if there will be a small sound sample at the end after the viewer sistem of the day then this will be a really complete treat. 😇
I liked the comment from an electrical engineer I read here a while back... "measurements tell you if something is broken or not"
🥂Skepticism is appropriate!👍👨🏻
I like your friend Steve..😉
Mr Mark is on the mark.
I really like his explanations.
I think exactly like this gentleman does.
Then, you are a very smart man!
Trust your ears, not your wallet. DIY it as much as possible. Get the family involved (my 7-year old daughter helped me build my Altec A7s). Crazy power not necessary. Above all, enjoy the music!
In the end what makes many people happy is finding a system that duplicates the sound inside your head along with involving the emotional side of your brain and makes you want to jump up and play air guitar, a mood shifting machine.
The problem we experience at a much greater level is the relationship of the manufacturer to the declared or undeclared reviewer. There is a TH-camr in the mens retail clothing industry as a buyer for a major retail organization. He has a channel where manufacturers fall over themselves sending him their products (very expensive products) for his 'review'. These are not for review-only as they are delivered to his measurements and he is allowed to keep the items He is invited to their global factories and wined and dined.
The viewer is supposed to believe his reviews are totally unbiased and the products he chooses to review spontaneously come-to-mind. Those companies that choose not to 'play the game' are at a severe disadvantage as TH-cam is a powerful marketing as well as entertainment platform. Influencers (Kardashians and others) have polluted commerce as anyone can claim to be an industry expert today.
Great interview Steve. Always fun to hear how others have made their journey. Your guest contradicts himself a number of times regarding believing his ears or not but that’s ok. None of us are perfect. 😂
"Doesn't trust his ears." I believe what Mark means is that he doesn't let his ears determine his preference. He wants to get close to what the instruments and voices actually sound like in their environment, as opposed to what he as a listener finds to be the most pleasing sound. (I'm happy with the latter myself.) I reckon he ignores the advertising blurbs that go on about "warmth" and "smoothness" and such.
When they sound horrible, you know you've found the perfect speaker
who knew iphone 4 speakers were the pristine audio solution this whole time?
@@keplermission if they sound good, your ears are lying to you apparently. Need horrible ones to keep them honest.
Mark's back! Yay!
Twisting the toe in slightly inward makes the sound stage rise up. Distance between them establishes the mids field and lows. Pulling them out into the room makes them boom more and get tigher in the mids. Back more tightens up the bass.
I look at my 1.7i more as drivers and the room is the cabinet. Finding the best location to energy the room as opposed to throwing sound at you like a box does.
Pulling them out into the room also increases the depth of soundstage - tremendously.
@@bencausey Once I get past a reasonable distance, 3' maybe, I find more "fatness" than depth. Everything gets bigger. Closer back and things tighten up some. Almost to the point of wanting them in different places for different albums.
Ordinary speakers create artificial "point source" imagery. Maggies propel faithfully produced waveforms with exceptional phase-fidelity. It's applied physics.
Maggies are tricky when it comes to the "sweet spot," but the sweet spot is much sweeter than the other speakers.
Nice. I love my maggies and 2 SVS subs also.
I really enjoyed this interview and his point of view, and I love his T-shirt of the Venezia Football club (my city).
"You're not a audiophile, you're a hen-pecked husband."
To quote a previous guest of Steve's.
His wife cried? Over speakers? LOL.
I would say anyone who values audio equipment over the feelings of a significant partner has screwed up priorities , but it takes all kinds of people to make a world.
@@richardelliott8352 and i would say anyone that belittle someone hobby is selfish and very inconsiderate.
@@howard5992 lets say he bought a luxury bag for her at $5000, ill bet she wont shed a tear even if theres no more room in the closet.
Some people fake cry to get their way.
@@richardelliott8352 crying though? Over speakers?
I'd rather have speakers that colour all music into sounding musically great than something that isn't half as enjoyable and shows me, what, the defects and noise of the equipment it was recorded with? I come to realise I prefer whatever brings me closer to the melodies and emotions within a song than something that pulls me away from focusing on the music and rather on the audio.
Agreed, mostly.
New music on Qobuz is the first thing I check out daily.
Liked Mark's description of music lover vs audiophile listening - I have a foot firmly in both camps!
I believe I'm on my final speakers with the Magnepan LRS and Kef LS50 with stereo REL subs.
(2 systems in 13x20ft rooms).
The kefs are even magical with FM static, which they present as a 3D soundfield.
🎶🎶
🎵☺️🎵
🎶🎶
Re: "Foot firmly in both camps." Yes! I didn't elaborate on music lovers vs. audiophiles, but I think most audiophiles are also music lovers. We all fall somewhere along the bell curve; very few are at the extreme ends.
It MAY not all sound good, but the fact is that it CAN all sound good, which is why I agree with Mark. I like analog AND digital sources, it’s really the appropriate attitude.
As far as the wife is concerned, headphones are a man's best friend
Enjoyment , nice to hear this
Ive been calibrating my sound system using both my ears and autocal by GLM (Genelec system).
Im 15 hours into my manual calibration (using my ears) and the system is now just right because of mye manual cal.
The huge difference to get everything right was to experiment with delays on every individual speaker, 0.11 ms delay made the trick between L n R in both my rooms.
The system now owns the room on very low volumes, and the speakers is basicly working together rather then canceling each other out.
The feed back I get from social gatherings is something like «Ive never experienced being emerced in music at such low volumes».
The autocal sure helped balance the EQs though.
Ive also done manuel EQ after the GLM eq.
good point of having 2 sets of speakers for reference
I find it hard to believe that people are still talking about these kef LS50s. They are speakers that do nothing for me, but not everyone has to like what I like.
I only trust my ears when I do my speaker placement, always. Looking at speakers adds bias. This guy is right.
Just moving speakers a millimeter changes the sound. Especially toe-in.
Nice video. Enjoyed the one.
Where did he get that blue chair!
this video is great. i actually feel like i might align pretty closely with mark's views, as an owner of LRS's (and also someone who has started thinking i might need a good 'comparison' speaker to set beside them)
I'm a little surprised Mark seems to use a listening chair with a high / head-height back. I've read and experienced that this can create unwanted reflections.
Couldn't agree more. After whole many years I discovered the same - it is the emotion at first, not celebrated perfection which is also very pleasant . I do not care so much if sysem giveme or not give me the comfort of full detail -. system should be capable to pass equally moody music in very natural moody way and very annoying and aggresive i the same natural way as I enjouyed it in past. My colege calls it "yapping" aro "high pitched din" but if it feels my expectation and lifts my soul I want it.
Very nice discussion. Thanks!
Mr. Pete------->
aging hippie
This was a very good video. I can relate to this guy a lot and mostly agree with what he had to say.
Really like this one. Thanks
That made me smarter. Thanks
Maggie's are beamy to me, you have to hold your head in a vice! Listened to 3.7's in J'ville and me and a friend couldn't get a proper soundstage except for the sweet spot...we had to stack for both of us to hear properly....they're not for me.
You shouldn't base your decisions purely upon 'trusting your ears' if you are overly invested in critical listening. If you are constantly comparing various sonic categories in A-B-A listening tests, you can go wrong in a multitude of ways. But if you can listen for the gestalt of the sound and appreciate how much emotional music has on you, based upon listening to a new component, then you are on the right path. You should still try at home, at length, and not sell anything until you are sure you have bettered it. This will limit expensive mistakes. But the idea that pure measurements should guide you more than your own ears, especially how you 'feel' about what you are hearing, is ridiculous. If it's not about what you hear, or subjectively like, then what's the point of music? Have we forgotten that music is meant to be about what you hear and feel? The key is to get away from Critical Listening Syndrome and not allowing a cold, calculation of what you are hearing to wipe away how the music makes you feel.
Thank you, Lee!!
Many a great point/explanation in there. I like hearing about experienced audiophiles that are using digital RIAA. I have been using it for a while. I often get the suggestion that I should really get a "proper" analog phono pre. Nope!
Do not forghet that music and sound are digital ...........so is love and everything else ......
Very interesting topics this time..
In context of measurements vs subjective judgement: I guess this shouldn’t be opposites but, different approaches in different situations: measurements to track and support product development, followed by critical listening (as even the most systematic measurement program might not cover all aspects, especially in newer technologies); at home, when I put my system together, I have only subjective assessment available, and it is cheesy bordering to insulting to support each and every finding with a double blind test (the ASR community demands that, in case you offer the subjective impression, a highend usb cable would sound different in my system (!) than a 3€ edition).
So, both absolutely have their justification, neither of them is complete or sufficient (well, listening is the purpose of it all, but good luck developing a better DAC via listening tests alone).
I do trust my ears, but I wait for confirmation the following days, with different records, etc.. so that my subjective evaluation (think of jitterbug in or better out?) stretches over a wider time frame, set of records, moods, different shapes of myself and my hearing abilities. So that my subjective judgement reaches a little deeper than a 3min double blind test. Also important is the question of interpretation of subjective findings: they are (hopefully) valid for the system used, but maybe nowhere else.. (where that exact same collection of tweakery isn’t combined in the same fashion).
I used to have a pair of LRS. I got rid of them and have since rearranged my room, added a second sub and acquired a more powerful amp. I wish I still had them :(
On streaming: The great thing about record collecting these days is you can check before you buy! And unfortunately I keep liking new stuff too much not to buy it on vinyl (if I can find it).
How can we like too much? Don't unleash the female relatives on my comment but how is liking stuff unfortunate? You know it suggests a miserly view of scarcity thinking.
Your ears are the most important tool when it comes to music obviously! Liking how the music sounds is what it's all about, certainly trust your ears! What you shouldn't trust is "spectrographs" (did I spell that correctly? )and other visual tools, for they have nothing to do with hearing! If an artist sounds like their right in front of you, what more do you need! Not trusting your ears for something that requires your ears is just ludicrous and ridiculous! And that's NOT my opinion, that's TRUTH!!
Well put. Totally agree.
Be skeptical..for sure.Taste change...if your personal taste change frequently..don't jump to the new flavors of the day.Its expensive. I'm not married. All of my former girlfriends liked my music..and after we broke up I helped them by their first stereo system. Thank you for this post greatly appreciated Steve Guttenberg 🙏.
You helped your ex girlfriends buy their first stereo system? 😆
As a person that has worked as a heavy equipment and truck mechanic for far too long, when I change my set up, I bring in other people to help. I mark where it works for me and mark in general where it works for all the family and friends.
🤣🤣 The placebo effect - There is no such thing with Bose 901's and others
Most hifi developers use listening tests and measurements to develop hifi. You don’t have to only choose one or the other.
I love this man. Great attitude. Almost enlightened…… wink wink.
@@keplermission You know, uh...I understand when people speak, they might stutter and pause to say "uhhh", but "uhh" is not something they want to say intentionally. It makes them look not smart. So for you to alway conscientiously write it out seems very strange.