Rare Breed vs. Hoffman Tactical Forced Reset Trigger Legal Battle
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.พ. 2025
- Forced Reset Trigger Legal Battle on the 3D printer front. Who is right?
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I am not a patent attorney, but I am an attorney. It sounds like Rare Breed is alleging a patent on the concept of the “forced reset” trigger rather than the actual design. Sadly, Hoffman probably cannot afford to fight them.
Yes absolutely! RB is certainly trying to promote the idea they hold a patent on the concept of a FRT, unfortunately for them the US doesn't grant patents for concepts..... If you read RB's patent you can see why BDU believes they can make their own FRT by slightly changing the design. Hoffman's trigger on the other hand has almost nothing in common with RB's trigger.... I'm not attorney at all, but IMO whoever drafted their patent dropped the ball. I wouldn't be surprised if the person who drafted it wasn't even a patent attorney.
@@THX..1138 patent attorneys knowing write patents to be as broad as possible while still getting past the low bar of Patent Office scrutiny. They know the cost of litigation scares away people like Hoffman from competing with different designs.
@@texpatriot8462 Yeah, but that's kinda one of my issues with their patent. It seems they patented specifically a drop in AR15 FRT. That has a very specific set of features. Such as the hammer directly pressing the trigger into reset. In stead of patenting broadly, a mechanism that uses the energy of the cycling bolt to force a trigger reset.
Again to me a laymen it seems their patent is way too specific to the RB's FRT product and it opened them up to BDU building a competing product.
As far Hoffman goes his trigger is vastly different. So much so i agree they are just trying to scare him into submission with legal threats.
@@THX..1138 RBT bought the patent rights from the designer. BDU bought a different patent from the same guy. RBT's position regarding the patents is very weak but they are certainly bullying Hoffman into submission.
Frustrating, the file disappeared quickly
If you read the RB patent, it’s for design function. They don’t have a patent on the concept. This is a bad look on RB’s end. The had a case for BDU because design is damn near identical. Hoffman has a different design.
7:36 or if they actually know what they're doing they'll take the plastic pieces and duplicate them out of metal
They sent him (HT) a cease and desist and he proceeded to make them look like baby rattle shaking morons. Super safety. Cant stop the signal.
It's awesome to see the Firefly browncoat ideals live on in the 3D printed firearms community.
*Rare Breeds patent is based on hammer to trigger reset via action of the bolt.
*Hoffman Tactical's design is based on hammer to plate to trigger reset via action of the bolt.
I don't know that Hoffman's design is enough of a change to be issued a patent being that the plate is attached to the trigger. Rare Breed's patent also covers the locking bar that functions by locking out the trigger. Hoffman's design is simply ingenious!
The original patents were issued to Allan Graves, and licensed to Rare Breed by Mr. Graves. Graves now produces his own version with some changes to the roller and other things.
They're protecting a patent they aren't going to be able to sell in a year or so. I'm glad Hoffman came out with a printable design
In a way though, coming out with a printable design doesn't help us either, because if they ban binary triggers everyone will just go back to "illegal" select fire triggers. I do think Hoffman is kind of forcing Rare Breed in a corner by making their product publicly available (and so a loss in future sales) when they already are being attacked by the "AFT".
@@DaveSmith-cp5kj I admit I'm being rather fatalistic about it. Anyone making a competing product would make the same dent in Rare Breed's revenue, and I don't think Hoffman's design infringes on their patent
his design sucks ass and it doesnt work. just stick with rare breed. they stand up for 2a rights. ht would roll over instantly if sent an atf letter
You can purchase the entire 3d printer cheaper than a Rare Breed trigger group and your name will remain in an overseas Chinese vendors data base rather than in Rare Breed's data base. Which of the two is more likely to end up in the ATF's hands?
As far as durability goes I suspect the plastic printed version will last long enough for most people to get it out of their system and return to a normal trigger.
Your probably going to get a cease and desist letter from Rare Breed for displaying an image of their trigger with the patent number visible.
I hope another company quickly trade marks the name Rare Breed and sends cease and desist letters to Rare Breed for trade mark infringement.
I totally agree. I like the idea, but shooting at a rate *like* "automatic fire" is so seldom useful that most of the triggers will end up on a shelf to show off to friends
Don't know what you were looking at but a complete set up is a lot more than a rare breed.
@@AFTBLOW You can pickup a used one these days for less than $50.00 bucks.
@@tenlittleindians love to find one for less than $50 but probably get what you pay for.
Rare breed has a digital shred policy. After your order is completed your information is deleted from the so called database.
Freeware....Rare Breed can't stop the signal.
Yep. Also, Firefly and Serenity was a gold mine of one-liners for independent thinkers. I'm partial to, "Someone ever tries to kill you you try and kill 'em right back".
@@deuceandguns thats the american way! Lol
Now we need 3d printers that print in metal.
Cnc machine
@@universallaw8850 Saws, grinders and files.
They have them, just not for the likes of your average person when it comes to affordability.
Aerospace firms and F1 teams have been 3D printing in titanium for years.
@@universallaw8850 Exactly. IDK why people are so big about metal 3D printers when CNC machines are not only faster, but cheaper. You can even use a 3D printer to help make your own CNC mill. Even industrially, metal 3D printers have slowly lost favor and going back to traditional machining because machined products are way faster to produce and more durable for the most part. 3D printing is mostly for prototyping and one off production.
If you’ve got a spare $1500 a Prusa is 1500
Prusa i3 MK3S+ w/enclosure $1,500 FDM stainless steel (17-4 PH)
China already does that to billions of companies. And that's a good thing. It makes the companies do better
2 things:
1. I would like to see the inside of a RBT to see what the parts look like. To see if there is any similarities between the two.
2. after printing the Hoffman trigger and if you like it print another one and transfer it to steel.
It's easy to do. Look at a photo of a Rare Breed trigger group and write down the patent number listed on the side. Then go to the internet and do a patent search. Exactly what was patented will be listed among with any documentation supplied to support the original filing for that patent.
Hm so basically lathe it to the exact measurements ?
@@Monztuh Mill, lathes makes things round mills will give you flats bends and curves.
Bottom line:
ATF and biden both have to go!
The End ❗
I printed one, then machined metal parts using the printed parts as a master for duplication.
Well, how'd it work?
@@montroseringler494 As one would expect.
Deuce you better print a ballistic vest for your dog
My only dog is taxidermy and filled with tannerite.
@@deuceandguns LMFAO I literally made that joke earlier today!!!
I don't think they have a case. They are 2 completely different products. It doesn't matter in the end result is the same. That would be like a dude inventing a device that turns salt water into table salt and then going after anyone who as a method to make salt. If there even a minor difference and it can be demonstrated to solve a problem then it's a different product.
Sounds to me like Coca Cola is upset that Pepsi is selling Coke. Yet... They still in buisness
I have watched all of rare breed triggers videos on their website and have made the determination that it is something that will probably break, likely cause nerve damage, and will definitely waste ammunition.
Not a Fudd, but I don’t know why people would want to fire that fast unless they are in the military or doing a one off machine gun shoot (I want to shoot an antique machine gun some day). Those triggers can’t help with accuracy and the cost to feed them - like an extra ex-wife. (I am a poor - the only full auto gun I could afford to shoot - bb’s). 😁
@@texpatriot8462 you should probably shoot one once, just to get it out of your system. A friend of mine had an hk53 years ago. I put one 30rd mag through it, shrugged my shoulders and handed it back to him. That's the only time I ever fired full auto. I asked my dad how often he used full auto on the M16 in Vietnam, he said never. It's like forbidden fruit, if it were freely available nobody would care about it.
@@texpatriot8462 "the range at austin" will let you dump two AK mags for $110.
Curious how you know that would happen? You notice a weakness in the design? What is it? Curious firearm enthusiast.
@@texpatriot8462 high rate of fire is useful in many fighting scenarios. That's why the military uses full auto arms. Fighters train with full autos, so they can fire with accuracy and make it an asset instead of an ammo waster.
They’d lose the patent battle because their only argument is that the two assemblies have similar functionality. You can’t patent a function or an action only the mechanisms used to create it. If they could get away with that then someone could ‘invent’ an automatic trigger and claim the us government is infringing in their patent by issuing their soldier with automatic ARs. It’s just a dumb idea.
Hoffmans frt requires his lower receiver design to work through there are some redesigns to work with a milspec lower
I printed the Milspec version.
@@deuceandguns where are you finding the files. I can’t find them on Hoffman tactical
@@kevinvance7980 same issues.. trouble finding some of the better prints
@@deuceandguns ht is garbage. it doesnt work. it just bricks your gun. stick with rb for quality and people that have the balls to stand up to the atf
Can you patent an idea ? I don’t think so. HT 3d printed device is proprietary to the HT lower. It can not be installed in a mil spec lower . I support both RB and HT
FYI- There is a mil spec version of the HT device...which is what I printed.
@@deuceandgunsanyway you can help me out. I’m looking to print the mil spec version as you did. Already In the process of buying the 3d printer now I just need to know how to and what to print 😂
But isn't another company making a different type of forced reset trigger that's metal and drop in ready ??
Wide Open Trigger. The original 3MR tac-con even has an approval letter from the AFT.
@@BigTomInTheBasement 👍
It’s only an infringement if Hoffman was making money off of it.
Laughs in 3d printer
What a great video. 👍👍
I think rb are ona looser, its an stl on the internet aaand looks pretty simple so coukd easily be re cadded by many
Anyone have the files foe this bad boy?
Links are against tos and will get my channel banned but it was designed by Hoffman tactical who has his own website and is on the Odyssey website. He has a better version now called the super safety.
thanks bro i apprecieate it@@deuceandguns
They would not be in trouble if they choose not to require absurd amounts of scratch.
Rare Breed has a group of lawyers that auto send these letters. They have to do this to have any chance of beating the ATF
If they get completely shut out they should accidentally leak the files to the open web a couple times just to keep the signal going.
BIG FU to the people suing Hoffman, he never got all profit-crazed jacking people up $300 a pop for these…. He gave it freely to the world. The kid is a prodigy, not a profiteer, and needs to be commended for his 3d printed innovations.
I’d just never put some goofy FRT gizmo into my primary weapon anyway…but let’s address the pachyderm in the pool:
Aimed fire is what kills the enemy, spraying bullets as fast as possible is fun, but has less real-world utility except for “suppressive fire” and it uses ammo up very, very rapidly.
The military recognized this a long time ago, and to me it is nothing desirable for engagements at moderate range in a firefight.
Secondly, reliability has been affected in some cases. Not helpful in a defensive scenario. My bone stock Colt M4 trigger groups work every time, and I don’t need to worry about a “new ruling” from the Stasi next month making me a felon.
Very good point.
The reason is because rare breed didn't want Hoffman to get into troubled and have to fight the ATF and loose. Rare breed wants to fight the good fight, they had to send the letter to protect Hoffman, of Hoffman don't have the funds to fight rare breed they don't have the funds to fight the government.
Hoffman tacticals frt only works with his 3d printed lower.
ht is garbage. it doesnt work. it just bricks your gun. stick with rb for quality and people that have the balls to stand up to the atf
If anything, they should be suing WOT. As far as I can tell, Hoffman Tac hasn't broken patent law in any way. Their design isn't similar enough, AND THEY'RE NEITHET SELLING NOR PROFITING FROM IT!
Hoffman FRT only work in their own 3d printed ar.
yup. garbage
Good points all around. Hey isn't everything stupid expensive these days. After hearing what RB is going through I'm looking to buy one. Also probably not use it for more than 1 10 rd mag because I'm cheap and I prefer making tiny groups at distance vs $100 shot patterns.
Sooo.. where's the atf case stuff lately?
The ATF is set to make a ruling on a possible updated definition of "frame or receiver" by July of 2022. They're scheduled to make a ruling on the new AR-15 Brace rules by Sep of 2022.
That's monopolizing. They've been doing that for a long time. They're gonna get in trouble😅😮
I'm so mad I procrastinated downloading the file and next thing I knew I couldn't.
Hey guys what kind of printer is that behind him through out the whole video ? Thanks
Ender 3 Pro - amzn.to/3Milrb9
This video was sponsored (by Google) by some guy wanting to represent me in the State Senate as a “progressive” voice in Austin. Google algorithm fail is Duece’s gain!
I'll bet this year's political ads are going to be crazy.
Where did you get your 3D printer?
Well with the design in your computer you can analyze the dimentions and make the parts out of steel. You can even heat treat the primary wear item to perhaps R35 and have a long wearing part.
Now as for the ATF, they need to get their shit together, they have defined a machine gun quite well in the past and have had it approved by congress making the lay legal and binding. However when they try to play POTUS and pass illegal laws via an executive order from their office, they have violated the laws of the USA, its also interesting as to the legal definition being the "threaded holder of the barrel and all working components to complete the firearm within the same piece".
Kinda fu¢|
Hoffman tactical frt only fits his lower not a standard mil spec lower. This is why Hoffman still has his available. The cd order was out to protect Hoffman from atf rulings remember rarebreed was in 2 lawsuits one with atf for constitutionality and one with wide open triggers. Wide open is the paten lawsuit.
Rb is not going after Hoffman, they have to go thru legal channels or it looks bad in cases against wot
What printer.
And where did you find the stl.
I used an Ender 3 and you'll have to Goggle for the files because it's always moving around.
Someone have a link for the stl since I'm sure people have them
Would this work with .22LR?
Is there any place we can still get the files for The Hoffman Tactical Trigger ?
The links are always changing but most files can be found on Thingiverse or Odysee websites.
The sell information. How can information be patient infringement? Maybe copyright but I dount rarebreed has copyright of the design information.
The frt trigger was not a rare breed idea the brains behind it was Graves , he then sold it to a company called wolf, wolf then sold it to rare breed. Rare breed is just being a gash over it. In my past iv known guys like him major league pain in the butt.
Rare breed never had approval from the atf
I personally think Hoffman if would have fought RBT he would won, they are 2 different designs in my opinion. I just wish I had a 3 printer I would love to have a Hoffman trigger to put in my AR. I wish there was a place I could get 3d printed parts for those of use that do not have 3d printers, it is not worth the price for just a couple of parts and the leaning curve to learn how to 3d print parts. I'm not saying its not worth it to get a 3d printer. just not to those of us that wont use it regularly just for 1 or 2 items
I see it as an option for people who live in California and can't get the real rare breed frt.
It's illegal in California. Anyone who would want this California would just make a real select fire full auto rather than bother with a binary. It's the same deal with silencers. It's already illegal so people in CA don't bother with solvent traps, they make a real one.
Bro you're wrong on so much. Graves made the trigger and idea and then sold that design to wolf tactical which was sold to Rarebreed. Bro they never sent any letter to the ATF either. Dude did you even research anything other than Hoffman tacticals design?
it is the right of everybody to make his own mecanism based on patent for his personal use and forbidden for commercial use. it is also the right of everybody to make a copy of of patent mecanism in order to improve it. it is the right of everybody to share drawing and blueprint of patented mecanism if the person is not making money with that. you can for exemple find drawing and STL file of patented HK quick picatnny bipod attachement. when Rare breed has make is patent, he has comply that he show his design to everybody (that everybody can copy for his personal use) in exchange Rare breed has an exclusivity for commercial use only....
The designs are NOTHING alike. In any way. RB is a 2 position trigger and HT is a 3. HT does NOT manufacture triggers.
There’s no argument here at all.
BTW, HT is the far superior trigger making all other FRTs obsolete.
Hey uh can I have those stls please I missed the drop
I smell a glow In The dark....
Democrats 3d printed sleepy joe. The file they used was probably corrupted.
Printed at too hot of a temp. Explains all the sagging.
Good 1
Shit the files are already out there with remixes to improve on hoffmans. ;)
They can't stop the signal.
@@deuceandguns what kinda roll pin is it ? Is there a name for it? Or just the size
Sorry the you have protect your patent argument is 100% BS ..... A patent grants you the right to control the manufacturing of the patented item. You can enforce it or not enforce it on whomever you like. The courts don't give a crap who you allowed to violated your patent. they only care if the specific entity you are suing violated your patent .......I'm no patent attorney either, but I have read Rare Breed's Patent. IMO the patent is weak. Patents do not protect idea's or concepts they protect a specific way of building something or of accomplishing a task.
Rare Breed patented a drop in ar15 FRT trigger, not the specific features of the trigger that make it an FRT. This makes their patent very vulnerable. My guess is the original attorney who drafted the patent didn't really understand what a FRT is or how it's function is special and so simply wrote the patent to describe the trigger he was presented with. The danger there is if someone builds a trigger that accomplishes the same task, but in a mechanically different way, chances are high RB's patent will fail to protect them.
Again not a lawyer, but IMO RB's patent should have focused entirely on anything that uses the energy of the bolt to force a trigger reset. Which it does not! Rather the patent describes the specific mechanism found in RB's trigger. It even decribes it as an AR15 trigger which likely mean an FRT of any design probably wouldn't violate RB's patent so long as it was for another type of firearm.
This weakness in RB's patent is why BDU after manufacturing triggers for Rare Breed decided they could just build a similar trigger that would not violate the patent. I mean I know RB is shoveling a lot crap people on the net are parroting in their defense, but does anyone really think BDU turned around and stabbed RB in the back by making their own FRT without first consulting their own attorneys about whether or not they were going to wind up losing in court when RB filed their infringement case?
This is where Hoffman tactical comes in. Where BDU built a trigger just different enough their attorneys felt it would stand up to RB's infringement suit. Hoffman built a trigger that has basically nothing in common with RB's trigger. RB isn't afraid Hoffman's trigger violates their patent, they're afraid it doesn't! They went after Hoffman in the hope that by crushing the Hoffman trigger right out the gate they will prevent anyone else from challenging the FRT monopoly they claim to have.
He wasn't selling it was he?
i agree with rare breed with this one even tho i like hoffman and what he is doing he should really step back and let rare breed fight the legal battle with the ATF because the last thing we need is a 20 year old kid getting scooped up and pleading out giving the ATF more to stand on in court for things like these
rare breed would sue you for printing that
I used my FRT in my 7.62x39 and my 50 Beowulf. Abolish the ATF!
It’s not, is different
Are these even legal 😳 🤔
I have a question for you. Could you do a video on the top 5 bolt action rifles under say $500? I'm hoping to get a 7mm-08 but don't know which would be the best option.
ht is garbage
rb is fantastic and they actually took the fight to the atf
rb all day
Anyone wanna share the STL?😂🤟🏾
Send me 1
:)
Rare breed makes me sick. They deserve to lose money and are no longer a trusted brand.
Rare breed is being girls about it.
f rare breed
Another ridiculous opinion piece!
At least I printed one out. Most of those spouting out their opinion don't even own a 3D printer.
@@deuceandguns Good call. I printed out 5 and haven't tried any. This piece will push me to try them out.
It doesn’t matter since atf consider’s these as machine guns.🤣🤣🤣🤛 everyone should be able to have whatever they want.ATF needs to be abolished!!!