GANG, remember. I am fully aware of how it feels to have people call you a POS en' masse, so that's not what we're here for. Constructive stuff ONLY. We're here to treat this, not as a boogeyman, but to simply discuss an idea. Videos mentioned: TelekinesticMan's Sonic Frontiers Critique: th-cam.com/video/-ntYsDby1mU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=JuEe_L6fUtiov5-_ Sonic Frontiers 2 - Pup Pitches: th-cam.com/video/mw94NBCbklo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=vhFqj9jodV0j-TR0 The PERFECT Sonic playstyle for the next game!: th-cam.com/video/FhRgoscYU-c/w-d-xo.htmlsi=kC7l_Mzpm0LB6V9v Sonic's Biggest Problem and how to fix it: th-cam.com/video/RCDbuQMnADI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=VMBZPmnQEAjUGgXK Just WHO is Sonic the Hedgehog?: th-cam.com/video/UPJs6Sbh0M8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=NyxPpPBE34E2aZSc
am really amazed n supriesd about how u was able to have the modestie and the patience and the politeness of respecting this guy message and order to (sonic team (and not sega)) with an huge level of respect from u , because i dont like the people who meddling thier selfs and throws evry sonic thing (lore) on the garbage like the movie did just to give he's own touch on all the franchise like that he's sonic team by it self , thinking that he ill success like that at the level of changing the sonic design and giving thats ugly thing , especially when he knows nothing about sonic sonic are great like he is that's the reason of he's success and thats why idw succeed by using the lore like he is at the place of throwing it by selfishness n arrogantly on the garbage so i have nothing else than respect to how u respect him and he’s projects back after that he propose a plagia to séga , oh and great oc
Pup, your reaction to this whole video is basically how I feel about Sonic Frontiers. Not only are you making a game that's inclusive, you're alienating people who disapprove of a change they (or few people like I) don't think would fit with Sonic. To me, having Sonic go from Shonen to Seinen is extremely niche, and doesn't fit with the general idea that Sonic is meant to be approachable for both kids and adults. Sonic Frontiers feels more like it was aiming for young adults and older, alienating the younger demographic in my honest opinion. I will never trust Ian Flynn with anything Sonic related, if he keeps insisting that this is what Sonic should be. Also, we have seen "Vaulnerable" Sonic in previous examples as well, prior to the live-action movie. For me, it's the DiC Cartoon Shows, Sonic Adventure 1&2, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Lost World. The first example is a lot like the Movie Sonic, just without the convoluted narratives; and while AoStH isn't very heavy on how vulnerable he is, I do like that Sonic isn't completely apathetic. Adventure 1&2 is more subtle in it's approach, although Sonic doesn't show it, he does tend to get surprised or worried whenever things don't work in his favor. The reason I bring up Secret Rings and not Black Knight is because Sonic doesn't put himself above the main objective, putting the safety of others before him. Okay, maybe I'm stretching on this one, but I just despise how they treated Sonic like a God at the end of Black Knight. Unleashed, while the narrative is limiting, at least Sonic felt sensitive about the situation he's in on the predicament he got into. Finally, Lost World, while not exactly the best story out there, at least had Sonic go through grief over the mistake he had caused.
He never properly diagnosed the actual problems with the Sonic IP, and instead projected issues onto the totality of Sonic’s world, stories and characters, pretending to understand why the games have had their failings, and fixing nothing in the process. This sounds remarkably identical to all the voices and critics that had helped forge the ‘meta’ era of Sonic as we know it, and it’s a very easy trap to fall into, since all it requires is for the person to take the nuclear approach, and alienate the fanbase. Just wanna say that I respect that creator, and his pitch, and I respect the effort and love he clearly gave to his idea. -But this is very bluntly the source of his error.
Exactly this, it’s people like this (Sonic Team listening to them) is why Sonic had such an identity crisis in the 2010s and why the majority of the cast other than Sonic, Tails, Eggman, Orbot, and Cubot were painfully underutilized
@@reginlief1 Perfectly fine. I fall closer to Pup in respecting the fact he went the whole mile, and gave his radical opinion irrespectively in a very creative graphic. It wasn't a good idea, but I can respect that he had it.
Ngl the reboot video kinda shows the reception of sonic in the 2010 post boom No friends because that’s bad No story because blue hedgehog can’t have story no voice acting as we know. Sonic never talked in the 90s except all the times he did I’m really glad that 2010s is over because even though it’s how I got into sonic It must’ve been depressing for a bunch of people
Yeah...the direction they took in 2010's really diminished the story telling of sonic and the characters like it was really sucks to see them just in sidelines which resulted most of the characters of the series get neglected Amy,tails,knuckles, shadow etc... only because of ((sonic's stupid friends)) criticisms they just played safe.. fearing that if they include playable characters people will hate them..I am honestly glad frontiers shattered this curse
To be fair, he never said there "shouldn't be a story" in the pitch. He was taking the simple approach found in the classic games, saying that we don't need every detail exposited to us to be engaged.
Yeah cuz pretty much anyone who didn’t even care about sonic would act like they’re terrible takes should be listened to because “hurr durr sonic boom bad”
@@Sonic-q6i yeah his reboot reminded me of Rayman Legends which I like but Sonic should be Sonic and not copy Rayman Legends, at least not for a reboot, a spinoff or fan game's fine though.
His whole pitch was "I know more about what makes Sonic great than long time fans even though all I did was play the Genesis games so here's my Ori and the Blind Forest ripoff"
@@choesta lol I like Ori. I own a physical copy of both games on Switch, but Ori is one of those games that appeal to pretentious game journalists types
This video was basically saying "Sonic should be more like that good boy Mario" without saying such, and as a big fan of Nintendo and their games, I'd hate that for the Sonic franchise or any SEGA franchise.
Which is weird since he made the video around the time of lost world, which did try to be like mario....and people didn't like it. (Sonic fans because it was trying to be like mario instead of Sonic, and others because it was not enough like mario or that the Sonic stuff was the problem for them.)
That was more similar to Rayman legends than actually Mario in my opinion. Rayman games are great but Sonic should keep his own identity and appeal which I think he has plenty off (classic and modern iterations feel really diferent and both have their own appeals honestly).
@@keelanbarron928 I actually like Sonic Lost World but I do admit that it wasn't the direction Sonic should go in. I don't mind it being just a one off release or a spinoff side series though.
Game would be fine as a little indie adventure title, he’s got some good ideas. It’s just he tried to put Sonic into the equation and removed everything people actually like about the character. Like yeah fans love Sonic because he’s an indistinct wide eyed, timid loner who moves at a snail’s pace?
Sonic Mania proved the retro future 90s aesthetic is timeless. Project 06 proved that Sonic friends can work with or without their own unique gimmicks. The real issue always was Sega's lack of quality control.
Bam, and overcorrecting everything. But that quality control is what kills them. We need new heads at Sega honestly that won't do that, and give the series a healthy amount of budget, time, and team size for any team that works on Sonic
I find it funny how he says that kids just don't care about Sonic anymore, yet half of the people at the theater that I watched Sonic 2 at were, in fact, children.
That was a long time ago with boom, but again I still agree, there are Kids that cared about Sonic even back in Boom days. I mean, I was one of them. Wanting to watch an episode before I went off to school so he is wrong about that
I swear sonic discussion was horrible back then, outside the fanbase there was literally no sense of nuance when it came to discussing what worked in the games and what didn’t Ppl could literally say anything about the franchise and it would’ve been seen as legitimate criticism cuz “sonic boom bad”, “sonic 06”, “rough transition to 3d” It’s how we ended up with stuff like ppl hating on there mere idea of sonic’s friends actually doing something cuz “sonics stupid friends” and 06 had multiple playable characters ig And let’s not forget the iconic “sonic shouldn’t be telling stories, he’s a blue cartoon hedgehog who runs fast” meanwhile stuff equally as ridiculous as sonic like tmnt, kingdom hearts and adventure time told more focused and serious stories The ideas he presented in that video would’ve worked as a tails spin of game ngl, minus the artstyle
Only thing I can agree with about this pitch is that Sega needs to make a hand drawn 2D Sonic game. God that’d go so hard with the right art direction.
@@meticulouselectronics A sonic game with spiderverse visuals would also go incredibly hard. Thankfully it looks like we’re seeing something like that with the Jet Set Radio reboot so yippeeee🙏🙏🙏
The most fundamental issue with the video to me is that he cites the low point of the series as the drastic reboot… then says the solution is an even more drastic reboot. That and saying Sega should appeal to long time fans by… throwing out everything established about Sonic? The video’s messaging just feels confused to me, he either didn’t think this through very far or put a bunch of time and effort into the video before realizing the issue and finished it anyway. He clearly put a lot of effort into it, which is why it’s so strange that it’s such an ill-conceived idea when you think about it for more than a few seconds.
It's like "Yeah, let's drastically change Sonic's design.... right after a large portion of fans absolutely lost their minds when they only slightly changed Sonic's design!"
Yea with the suggestion of doubling down on having ANOTHER reboot - despite saying "think of the long term fans and their knowledge of the franchise!" - seem a lot like... "No, no! Dig up, stupid!"
It makes sense when the idea of "long time fans" is Genesis Sonic fans. As in the classic 3 (or five games depending if you count CD and if you count S3&K as two games). This does describe a group of people, but the game they wanted was Sonic Mania.
@@mdstevens0612 The truth is that Sega could've fully well made a game similar to Mania with the Modern character designs and even featuring popular characters such as Shadow, Silver etc. However, because of how many Sonic "fans" were throwing hissy fits over Sonic's eye colour of all things in Sonic 4, Sega now feels obligated to treat Sonic's older design like an entirely different character with its own separate game series that basically hogs the best received Sonic gameplay style. All this Classic/Modern divide is say "only characters with a black eyed classic design can be in these games, and any character created between 1998 and 2022 can't have a black eyed design!" It all just feels so pointless and petty.
@@bowmaj8666 they did exactly a 2d Sonic game with modern designs in the Sonic Advance games. Such a good series! I wish they made more games similar to those!
Imo sonic doesn’t need to change drastically, sega is just a shitty anti consumer company that pushes for deadlines and games can’t be finished on time. If the game is good, it will sell.
Yeah, to be honest, this is the only REAL, factually irrefutable statement. Sonic Frontiers had all the potential to be a masterpiece; nothing less than that. But if a franchise doesn't sell, oh well, SEGA will crunch it and turn it into a niche-DLC-generating machine. Or not, since they do the same for their most famous series today
@@rubber161 yeah and with segas recent initiative to make something brand new every year for their “three pillars”; (sonic, persona and yakuza) wether it be a game, show or movie, I think it’s just too much. Yeah I get sonic fans can be rabid not getting something all the time but the series could be sooooo much better if sega let sonic team cook more. We wouldn’t even stuff like the sonic 06 and boom fiasco if they weren’t so strict and honestly I feel sonic wouldn’t be laughed at as much by the public upon releasing buggy and unfinished games.
@@burritobison7700 That news sent chills down my spine when I read it. I thought it was a joke at first, so to find out it was real, just... Like, wow. Have they never seen what that did to every major company in recent years? Absolutely capable of ruining series. I mean... It also gave them lots and lots of money, so...
I rlly think the best target audience for Sonic, is the shonen crowd! The fan favorite sonic games lean into the cheesy and epic side of the character, his personality and vibes. I rlly feel like 12 and up is the best bet for Sega to aim for.
Honestly that's really what should be done or should have been the direction to stick to when the adventure games existed. But ever since sega was bought by sammy in 2004-2005, the sammy corporation literally ruined sonic by changing their target audience.
He graduated from a game design school and he definitely talks like it. From the air dash, to the Lanky Funko Pop design, to the unnecessary inventory, to the watercolor backgrounds, removing the voice acting, and focusing on gameplay only. Plus, this being in hindsight and seeing how there's so many generic indie games released over the past decade with these exact same qualities, I'm assuming that this is exactly what he was taught in school to be Good Game Design™ without really innovating on the fundamentals they taught him. Not to be rude, but he sounds like an excellent student, which is what likely gave him the confidence to make this video in the first place. But at the time of this video's publishing he didn't seem to be much of an innovator. You have to applaud his confidence and attempt to offer a solution, constructive feedback is always infinitely more helpful than carelessly slamming an idea and walking away.
When you say "it scared Sonic fans", that may be true, but can you honestly blame them for being scared? We've seen time and time again that Sega tends to listen to the harshest of critics rather than their own fans, and I honestly don't think the games benefit from this. "You like a bit more content in a Sonic story than just Sonic vs Eggman? WELL TOUGH! Critics absolutely hate Sonic stories and say that only gameplay matters!" "You like the supporting Sonic cast and you think that they add some variety and creative ideas to the franchise? WELL TOUGH! You can't have 'em cos other people don't like 'em!" "You like it when Sonic games take themselves seriously and have actual integrity? WELL TOUGH! It's just a cartoony blue hedgehog! You CAN'T take that seriously! Cos it just comes across as silly and dumb! And the only people who like this are obviously just furry weirdos, so they don't count! At least that's what the critics who don't even like Sonic games are always telling us, and they must know what they're talking about... Right?"
his pitch was something a western dev would make to ruin a beloved franchise , his pitch sucked imo, but there is no doubt on the amount of effort and time he put into it. he should've never been haraseed
I mean, I think they did a little of that with Superstars and the Chaos emeralds. But besides that I think a lot of ideas from a lot of Sonic games can work for both 2D and 3D
11:20 A lot of fans don’t realize this but Secret Rings had a lot of positive reviews back in the day, it’s bad reputation now is kinda revisionist history. Similar to Sonic Chronicles, critics were hailing them both as average to good, but fans in the Twitter & TH-cam critic era hate them both.
The only reason those 2 got positive reviews was simply because they weren't sonic 06. Secret rings sucked mostly because of the poorly handled motion controls and the idea of inserting sonic into a storybook (like seriously was sonic team just running out of ideas at that time) and chronicles sucked because of the music and battle system mechanics, even the graphics were ugly especially when we had the rush games looking better than what chronicles had.
To me, the issue lies moreso on the opposite where everything revolving around Sonic is always seen as bad and terrible, how every single new game is just a bad Sonic game, and how Sega fails to understand what makes Sonic so great, and how we need to go back to the Genesis formula and abandon everything else. The series isn't ever allowed to try new things or go through new directions because "that's not Sonic", and every single new game in the series is bad or disappointing.
Well, technically Sega can try new things with Sonic. The problem is that most "fans" insist that he can't have green eyes or speak while he's doing them. Seriously, a lot of Sonic fans out there insist that their complaints have nothing to do with Sonic's design, but honestly the more I delve into it, that's clearly not true. People always complain about silly superfluous things about the most recent Modern titles, but when a "Classic" game does something similar, then suddenly no one bats an eyelid! Take the Sonic supporting cast. People have complained about practically every single member of the Sonic supporting cast for some ridiculous reason or another ("too many characters! Sonic's stupid friends, am I right?), then suddenly they introduce a "New Classic character" in the form of Trip the Sungazer, and I swear I've not heard a single bad thing about her. Now that's not me criticising Trip, I actually think that she's a fun new addition to the cast, I just find that a tad suspicious. It can't just be because she's a "Classic" character, can it? So I've looked into this. A lot of fans seem to prefer Classic Sonic games because they have traditional 2D Sonic gameplay, and a very basic story with no voice acting, plus the alternative playable characters are pretty much optional. So I've been thinking, they should just make a game like that with Modern Sonic characters. Include fan favourites like Shadow, Rouge, Cream, Blaze, or Silver. That way these characters can finally be in a game where people aren't going to unfairly use them as a scapegoat as to why the game is bad! These characters have never been in a traditional 2D Sonic platformer with the original momentum based physics of the original Sonic games, so it sounds like a cool idea to incorporate their unique abilities into this kind of gameplay. Not only that, they can also include characters like Mighty, Ray, Fang and even newcomer Trip if they wanted to. They just need to update their designs to match the other Modern characters, which is literally just a slightly taller build and coloured irises; that doesn't seem like a big deal to me, and it makes more sense continuity-wise than trying to make Classic designs for characters like Shadow, Silver etc! Plus, if they're completely optional, then even their most overly critical critics and haters and detractors will have no excuse to complain about them, because you don't have to play as them if you don't want to. I personally think that this would be an interesting direction to take the series. Mixing both old ideas with new, and completely scrapping this Classic/Modern divide, which I honestly think is hurting the series more than helping it. Yet what's everyone's biggest complaint with this? "NO! CLASSIC AND MODERN SHOULD BE SEPARATE! TRADITIONAL 2D SONIC GAMES SHOULD BE CLASSIC CHARACTERS ONLY! THOSE STINKY MODERN CHARACTERS WOULD RUIN IT!" It's always that whenever I bring it up, and it's just ridiculous! Trip isn't even technically a "Classic" character; she's a new character who's being marketed as a Classic character! It's just proof to me that the term "Classic" has no actual meaning anymore; it's literally just a marketing term at this point. Basically "Not Modern, so therefore good!" And what exactly makes her a Classic character? You guessed it! No coloured irises! People can deny it all they want, but it is literally all down to the eye colour to them! It's ridiculous!
@@bowmaj8666 I get what you mean you have no idea... everytime Sega do something news with sonic Fans: omg...they are always inconsistent!, this doesn't feel like sonic... etc always complaining about everything youbget what I mean it's like the series can try anything or any new direction because ((it doesn't feel like sonic)) You know...ngl when I first time saw sonic frontiers' world I did said ((it looks off and doesn't feel like sonic too) but then I reminded myself that this is sonic we are talking he never had any consistent art-style he's always changing.. because sonic isn't that type of character be limited in one art-style and if sonic team wants to go for realism then go for it..and I accepted it just like because believe it or not...this is not the first time they used realistic art style Sonic so it's not something out of ordinary for the franchise I mean sure the World wasn't exactly what I wanted but...just because sonic frontiers has a realistic art style and isn't my perfect child doesn't mean it's going to be a bad game .
@@bowmaj8666 oh my goodness, are you my twin?!? I've been saying this exact thing for YEARS!! Sonic's friends should be around to expand the story and bringing classic characters over to the 3D games would be so cool. But no they MUST stay in their respective dimensions, is what I've seen from most fans who apparently care about continuity. The classic and modern divide must END! I'm sick of the fandom being divided because the thought of these ideas joining together is apparently bad. Sega and Sonic Teams biggest issue in my opinion is overcorrecting everything, and I can kinda see why gate keepers get defensive. We need to find common ground that both these ideas can exist together, bringing good ideas from all Sonic games to create what could be an artistic imaginary compelling Sonic game
@@JakeThehedgehog-m1xI also agree, execution is everything and I believe the more realistic world could have worked by incorporating more realistic Sonic elements in the world along with designing the ancient geography and tech better into the landscape. Also designing the world so that Sonic can interact with it better by having at least an invisible layer on top the world so Sonic isn't jittering on uneven terrain
@@derple8524 My friend, I have been saying this for years too! I'm going to show my age, but I've been playing Sonic games since I was a kid, and even long before the days of the internet, there was always this toxic attitude towards almost superfluous things. People nowadays complain that there are too many Sonic characters? Well back in the day there were people who couldn't even handle the inclusion of Tails! And the Classic/Modern divide just gets on my nerves. Mainly because it just feels like people are associating everything that they love about the series with Classic Sonic, and just lumbering all of the stuff they hate on Modern Sonic. And it seems so pointless. The only reason that we even got a Classic Sonic in the first place was because people were whining about Sonic's darned eye colour in Sonic 4. And it's the determination that people have to keep this divide going. People will always say things like "Why can't both Sonic's exist? Just accept it!" Yet they're the ones who can't accept that they're supposed to be one and the same. I've been accused of being a "Classic Hater" and even a "Modern Moron" for my opinions. For the record, I love games like Sonic Mania and Superstars, I just don't see what this obsession is with Sonic's older design. People keep telling me "It's not about the design!" Yet when you try to propose a new game with the original Sonic gameplay but with the Modern designs, they're totally against it. "NO! THAT'LL NEVER WORK! THE MODERN CHARACTERS WOULD RUIN IT! YOU CAN'T JUST GET RID OF CLASSIC SONIC!" So, it is about the design for them, isn't it? It's actually refreshing to hear Sonic fans who agree with you. Hope to hear from you again!
I think what caused the reaction is basically people feeling like Sega would take on this guy's example and actually apply it, this came out during a time when Sonic was in an even worse position than 06, and bullying and making fun of the franchise was not only accepted, but encouraged. People went overboard, but that's because they felt the need to defend the franchise they love and can't say I blame them (I do know how that feels when a random idiot calls Amy a stalker for the bajillion time). Besides, it felt like Javed's decision was to ax everything the Sonic franchise is known for to make it more in line with other mascots. Mario doesn't talk, Pac Man doesn't talk, Megaman doesn't talk (mostly), Crash doesn't talk, and Sonic spouts full lines of dialogue, that alone says how different he is from them. And not hearing of other characters during the video felt like another "get rid of Sonic's stupid friends" solution.
I agree! That's what really bugs me whenever I hear people complaining about the Sonic series these days. No matter what people are complaining about nowadays, it doesn't feel like that long ago that people were complaining about the complete opposite. Nowadays people complain that the stories are too simple and silly, and never take themselves seriously. Years ago people were complaining that the stories were too complicated, and too edgy and try hard, and that you simply CAN'T take a cartoon like Sonic seriously. People today complain about how Sonic's friends aren't being properly utilised. Yet people have complained about every single solitary supporting character in the Sonic series since the introduction of Tails! Plus people throw hatred on them even when they're arguably at their best! Nowadays, people complain about the current voice actors, claiming that the last ones were perfect. Yet back when they were voicing these characters people were literally saying the exact same thing about the voice actors that came before them! Now I'm aware that the Sonic fan base is made up of lots of different people with differing opinions, but this is proof to me that Sega needs to stop letting the most negative of criticisms dictate what the franchise can and can't be. This isn't doing the franchise any good! I still to this day believe that the only reason that Sega introduced the idea of Sonic's older design being an entirely separate entity was because of the amount of fans complaining about Sonic's design in Sonic 4. They were already treating the two different character designs as separate characters, ("Urgh, that ugly stretched out green eyed Sonic sucks! The original chubby Sonic with black eyes is a bajillion times more betterer") all Sega did was make it official. And whilst on paper this can be seen as a good thing, all it's really doing is further dividing a divided fan base.
That and the execution was terrible. I think they tend to overcorrect things, but it's really hard to voice your opinion on this media cause of the differing opinions only because of the ideas instead of polishing what worked.
Javed loves Sonic just like the rest of us... but he doesn't seem to understand Sonic. I believe it's his biggest flaw in his creative pitch. There are similarities to Sonic in his ideas, but they lack Sonic's personality, function, level design philosophy, and pacing that makes Sonic... well, Sonic. If anything, these ideas seem to correlate more with Sonic Forces' Rookie character (vulnerable, using tools/items to progress, not very fast, etc.). Heck, this could take place in Sonic's world, but instead starring Miles "Tails" Prower utilizing his intelligence, along with the skills he developed from tagging along with Sonic for so long, on his journey to become his own realized hero outside of Sonic's shadow.
COMMENT 1 One thing I really like about his idea is that the element boxes should play a big role but the way he thinks they should be utilized is unreasonably restrictive to pacing and kills the momentum essential to a high speed based plat-former instead trying to jam in puzzle elements while putting a hard stop to the flow. So instead I would go about implementing the elements so that it serves as a critical toolset to the traversal, platforming, and combat while preserving the essential momentum mechanics. ⚡️ 🔥 💧 Part 1: Elements are no longer restricted to capsules you jump on. Instead they are now implemented into segments of the ENVIRONMENT which will be made clear via visual effects: I.e. fire cluster for the fire aura (or shield), electrical fields and a region of lightning bolts for the magnetic/lightning aura, and water pools/lakes/waterfalls for the water/bubble aura. Part 2: The expansion: Now here’s the thing NOW that the elemental powers are no longer restrained to their tiny capsules. Not only are they more accessible but they can also become THREATS and HAZARDS that the player needs to avoid or they will get damaged EXCEPT for. Part 3: RINGS! Yes that’s right instead of having rings only serving as a recoverable life bar or an extra life now they can serve as part of a crucial access key to a completely different and more powerful play style. Once a player reaches an X amount of rings let’s just say 50 for example. They now unlock access to those elements and NOW what was once a threat to be actively avoided becomes an incredible Advantage to the player by gaining access to those powers and instead of trying to veer away from those areas you are now actively sprinting towards them! And if you reach 100 for example you activate an *invincibility* boost which will work a lot like the generations and Frontiers boost. This vastly changes one’s priorities by focusing on retaining your rings and being strategic and skilled in platforming combat while avoiding damage. Part 4: The cool stuff. Now that the stage and the incentive structure has been set it’s time to delve into the powers from accessing these elements and their upgrades. You start off with the bare basics and are quite limited when it comes to traversal and combat. With the 🔥 fire aura you can obviously traverse on flammable surfaces and cause more damage to enemies. ⚡️ Lightning aura no damage on electrified surfaces and when making contact with an enemy via jump or boost attack it will stun that enemy making them vulnerable to attack for a short time. For 💧 bubble/water aura the player can stand and move slowly on water and they don’t run out of oxygen if underwater and they can easily jump out of the water. The ✨ invincibility boost will be unchanged.
COMMENT 3 🌊 🌪️ 🔥 ⚡️ Part 6: Element Combinations. Certain elements are able to combine with others to enhance one another’s impact and effectiveness but they have to be unlocked via combination upgrades. One of which is 💧 ⚡️ water and electricity. Without the upgrade if water and electric mix the water will become electrified and if the water ability is currently equipped then Sonic will get electrocuted and lose that element along with some rings, if the electric element is equipped then he will be immune to the electric current but if he goes underwater he will lose the electric element and promptly get electrocuted. With the upgrade both water and electric become compatible with each other and you can use either ability but you must have BOTH currently active. Water increases the range and damage of electrical fields and water tornadoes if electrified will generate lightning strikes within a certain range. With 🔥 💧 Fire and Water if over a flammable area and equipped with the water ability you will catch fire, lose that element and some rings. If over water and the fire element is equipped you will lose that element but take no damage. With the upgrade purchased both Fire and Water become equipped as long as both are active. When over lava with the water element you can use the exact same abilities for water but using lava instead. When near an 🔥 ⚡️ electrified area and equipped with the fire element Sonic will get electrocuted and lose that element and rings. The same vice versa with fire. With the upgrade purchased they become compatible with one another and buff each one’s attack damage and range as long as both are active. Part 7: Counter balancing and element limitations. As stated before. Elements need to be acquired by running through them or over them (water) with a required minimal ring count to acquire the elements and access their abilities else they will be classified as a hazard (except water but you can drown) and they will hurt the player and lower their ring count. The other important thing to mention here is that these abilities although powerful can be taken away with just one hit and when the player loses it any of those related elements become hazards again and they have to find another element source and acquire it again with the access ring count and all upgrade tiers (attack/homing chains) will be reset but permanent upgrades will remain. Enemies of all different sorts, sizes, and HP will have different varying long range, short range, light attacks, heavy attacks, and critical attacks which will put the player to the test. The level layout will be truly 3d open zone with the hierarchy of the faster (for example higher) the track the more difficult to it is to stay on it with descending tracks having lower overall difficulty but are slower and more combat intensive with more combat arenas to unlock the most accessible paths that have a low skill ceiling and DON’T require any elemental abilities but can be circumvented with high skill and mastery of the physics system or with the assist of the elemental abilities. The player can have all abilities *active* but can only have one equipped at a time which can be toggled/switched using the D pad. For an ability to be active you need to have simply acquired it and not been hit while that ability is equipped else you will lose it and it won’t be considered active anymore. Because the player is able to rapidly transition between which elements are equipped this allows for them to be combined and linked together in a highly rewarding way and to the benefit of one another. Here’s what I mean: Upgrade Tiers are ISOLATED to each element according to their corresponding attack or homing chains which means they will only count towards that chain if the attack used corresponds to that elements attack chain. (if performing a burst chain you must have the fire element equipped when attacking and hitting the enemy. Attacking with ⚡️ electric equipped will NOT contribute towards the 🚫 🔥 burst chain but the lightning chain. Attacking with 🔥 fire equipped will not contribute towards the 🚫 ⚡️ lightning chain.) BUT even when switching out of an equipped ability its attack chain will still be running in the background and indicated on the screen. For example if you were in the middle of a 🔥 burst chain and switched to electric ⚡️ the chain will still be running in the background and won’t reset unless you touch a part of the ground or get hit. So say you still haven’t touched the ground and switched back to fire 🔥, that burst chain will be right where you left it and you are still able to increase it. The same applies to the lightning chain ⚡️ where the time limit is indicated on screen and still running down in the background and as long as it doesn’t run out and you switch back to electric ⚡️ and land another attack your lightning chain will increase! Now how cool does that Sound! Now the variety and application of the mechanics may be too cumbersome and could be simplified but that’s not the main point. The main point is that this gameplay style distinguishes itself completely from Mario which still uses the old but still intuitive power ups and any other plat-former variant. This gameplay style makes attaining the powers itself challenging, risky, and dangerous but that much more rewarding and opens up a new and more powerful play style and also emphasizes the very unique ring system which aside from being used as part of a score, life bar, or boost gauge is still incredibly underutilized and doesn’t have much reason. NOW they become an essential component of the entire gameplay style to access a set of abilities which intuitively changes the way the player approaches the game elements, zone environment, and enemies BOTH on a traversal and combat oriented basis! It allows for vast experimentation, combination and style in addition to an amazing spectacle of high speed paced action that YOU create! Not to mention that this allows for vast replay-ability of existing zones or revisiting the same Zone with a different gameplay approach because of event triggers which can occur after reaching a set checkpoint or by defeating a certain large enemy/boss or mini-boss or can be object triggers which you can run, dash, attack, smash, or pound into all from your own control! This is How you can bring the peak of Sonic 3 into a completely reimagined 3D Platform Action Adventure Spectacle for the Sonic franchise!
last comment I'm gonna make but. You're giving the guy way too much benefit of the doubt. People didn't hate this cuz "the guys talented and people were scared", people hated it because it was a cynical culmination of anti sonic hate in the late 2010s, and it stripped away EVERYTHING that makes Sonic what he is. I will admit the dude has genuine talent, I cannot deny that, but what the pitch has in style is bogged down by a complete lack of adequate substance.
I think this video would have done a lot better in the long run if it wasn't framed as the definitive "fix" for Sonic. I could see this concept working as an ok mobile game, for example. As the end all be all solution for the series it comes across as misinformed at best, delusional at worst
I saw it back then as well. I thought that it would be a cool fan game idea but I wouldn't like the series to go in that direction to be honest. From what I remember, i didn't comment at all on that video back then.
This video has aged very badly considering what the movies and Frontiers have done for the general perception of the franchise. They basically doubled down on why audiences like these characters and world and it did pay off
The main problem with the video is that it’s a bit pretentious to say « dear Sega look how your game could be better » when he just shows the opposite of what the Sonic franchise is all about. If the video was like « what would a hypothetical niche 2D puzzle Sonic game look like ? », it wouldn’t have been controversial and more interesting
Feeling like appealing only to the 18-30 year old demographic is such a executive thinking mindset. No matter what is done, sonic is always gonna appeal to kids. The kids of the 90s, 2000s, 2010s and beyond. Kids will just see sonic and go “wow he looks cool I wanna play that!” That’s how I got into sonic with rush adventure and that’s how people and kids are gonna get into it with the comics, shows, games, and later movies. Throwing out all of that for nostalgia would lead us to only getting mania as the only series of games. And while that can work, but there’s a reason why Sonics design changed with sonic adventure and evolved from there. He had to change with the times and that is what went down. Keeping sonic as a 2D sprite based platformer, would put sonic in the same place crash bandicoot went down from wrath of cortex until the n.sane trilogy.
Not to mention the fact that a lot of kids think that they're "wise beyond their years" but tend to gravitate towards whatever the big opinions are at the time. If these wannabe TH-camrs start going "oh Sonic is so stupid! Sonic is for dumb little kids", then their audience of little kids will likely just jump on the hate bandwagon and start nodding along going "yeah yeah, it's for dumb little kids! And I'm not a dumb little kid! I only play grown up games, like FNAF, Fortnite and Minecraft!" Honestly, I don't see the issue with marketing these games to long time fans who have been playing since the 90's; they can just do that in a way that doesn't divide and alienate the fan base!
I think Sega should see what adults don’t like about it. Writing wise, and hummor wise. And use the story that focus on adults story wise. As a marketing tool to get kids into the game. For example incredibles and Ghostbusters are to films that aren’t necessarily for kids. But are so well loved there iconic kids moves. Any kid who is mature enough to play video games, don’t need to be pandered to. Lego dc villains is way less tacky and corny, then most modern sonic. And that panders to kids younger or the same as Sonic. Now they have comic book writers write most of their games.
33:00 man I’m so tired of this MYTH being perpetuated. Sonic did NOT have a rocky entry into 3D. They nailed it right out the gate with what’s STILL one of the best 3D controlling Sonic games.
I don't think Javed deserved to receive hate for this (anyone rarely does). He clearly has passion for Sonic and had all the best intentions. With that said, these ideas clearly stem from a very specific view of Sonic as a brand and as a franchise, and not a particularly popular one at that. I think the pitch would've turned out better if Javed had considered what others had enjoyed about the series, not just the games but the comics and cartoons as well, instead of basing everything on his own perspectives and general sales statistics. I don't think he realized that many of the aspects he didn't care for and was doing away with without a second thought had resonated with many others and were an integral part of Sonic's modern identity.
Mark Flynn's ideas were great. I think it's because he has done a ton of studying on what makes sonic popular without taking away what makes sonic, sonic. I loved his videos on going over each of the art styles Sonic has been in over the years
If I remember that video correctly, he brought it out after the first live action Sonic movie, and honestly his attitude seemed to be "well that movie was good because it solely focused on Sonic Vs Robotnik and threw out practically everything else in the Sonic lore!" As someone who made a rebuttal to his video once said "That isn't why it's good! There's so much more to it than just that! They are going to make a sequel and fans actually WANT more of the lore! They want Tails! They want Knuckles! They want the Master Emerald! They want Shadow! And if these things showed up that wouldn't ruin the movies; people would be excited!" And that's exactly what we got, and people loved it! That's the main issue I have with his video. He actually establishes in this reboot the idea that Sonic and Robotnik (god forbid we actually call him Eggman) are the only characters, even going as far to establish that Robotnik actually made Sonic and that he is the only anthropomorphic animal in the world! It's not just that other characters don't exist in this reboot, he went out of his way to make it that they CAN'T exist in this reboot! I'm sorry, but who is this for, other than the "Sonic's stupid friends" crowd?
@bowmaj8666 he did a second video where he introduced the idea of tails. Yeah, I do agree that theres some problems with his take, but a lot of his ideas I do find pretty interesting for a spinoff. The crash similarities are evident, yeah, but stuff like the uk comics did similar stuff. I do agree tho maybe he shouldn't have made all the sonic characters be lab experiments.
@@DURANDAL1007 It just felt like he based his entire reboot idea on that story description from the Western instruction manual from the first Sonic game, even down to Sonic's speed coming from his shoes. Sorry, but that just seems like a very closed minded attitude towards this series. It's almost like he's saying "This game and it's story is perfect, and everything else that came after it ruined the entire franchise!" Now I know that he doesn't specifically say that, and that probably wasn't his intention, but the sad truth is that there are certain Sonic fans who think just that. Even down to going straight to the Western version, because they either don't know or refuse to accept that Sonic is technically a Japanese brand.
I think the core problem with the video is how it came hot off the heels of Sonic Boom, something people already didn't like how much it deviated from the original Sonic, and doubled down on those exact elements
i remember watching this for the first time, i was at a younger age at the time and didn’t really know too much about criticism and such. but good lord, after watching that video even my small kid brain knew how dumb that idea was, to make Sonic your casual background indie game with barely any story nor action and EVEN MAKING HIM SLOWER!? nah that’s crazy, if a kid with barely any type of knowledge of criticism knew how dumb that idea was then you knew someone fucked it up
I forgot about that old video. The ideas he pitch isn't bad for a game that is inspired by Sonic, we've had many games that was inspired by many different Sonic gameplays. But using a few of these ideas for Sonic himself...isn't going to go. He said Sega should aim for adults, but a lot of these don't sound like ideas that aim towards adult gamers, it still feels like it's aim towards kids. Adult Sonic game would probably be more like the Adventure games, but with heavier and deeper story or a bit more action, a lot of adults do like Dragon Ball, anime and action movies. As for Sonic games should tell their story through cutscenes instead of voice acting.. Superstars has already done this, and that was one of the criticisms that people had about that game, that no one understood what was going on in the game's story
Yup, I'm in the upper end of the age demographic he claimed to be aiming at and I'd love something much more Adventure inspired; give me the shonen inspired Sonic with action, story and drama over this timid blue silent mouse. If Forces had actually delivered on the story and took itself seriously instead of the shallow joke we got, I would have willingly overlooked the mediocre gameplay and happily considered it among my favourites. The seeds for what I wanted were all there, they just failed on delivering anything.
It was more so the story didn't make sense at all, first Eggman wanted to find a dragon but then he can all of a sudden time travel? Why? It was a mess because they didn't even know what they were doing with the story, just throwing anything at the wall and hoping it sticks
The gameplay style he pitched would honestly go HARD for a Tails spin-off game, using his tails and items to help solve puzzles and fight enemies (think a modernized and more fleshed out version of Tails' Adventure from the Game Gear mixed with some of his gameplay style and elements from both Adventure games among other things)
The biggest problem with his concept of re-design of Sonic is this feels like a indie game with a Sonic skin. If it were a new indie game with a new character, would make sucess. But because is a concept idea for when he thinks the Sonic series should going forward, it feels completely absurd. It's a great video, with a lot of effort put in, but it's so disjointed with the Sonic fundamentals, that alienate the idea of what Sonic is. Also, with a video he released later of "Dear SEGA", call "Back Pockets: Sonic & The Target Audience", he admitted that he lapsed interest with Sonic at some point at his life, and lost touch with the series. That would explain why the re-design feels off. Because he only focus on some basic parts of the games, and the rest was based in he believe people would like to play, not based on the series' fundamentals (Design, gameplay, and narrative), and why people like this series. And for Jared, I hope that he continue making a lot of sucess on his life.
Exactly which is why I believe that he doesn't understand what Sonic even is hell I barely believe that he actually played the games yeah he said he did but I really don't think so after seeing this video show the game could have been good with a different IP but not as Sonic game you know?
That's how I feel for a bit of it. Sure, it's not as tone deaf as that trailer for a new Commander Keen game that got cancelled & looked like a cheap, no effort TV Flash cartoon, but still.
Ok...i know the sonic Fandom went kinda overboard with this video but...i can see why people back then hated this pitch reboot it kinda destroys what sonic is about and just reducing and didn't exactly understood sonic's appeal in the first place so that's this video got tons if blacklash.. Also for this one 28:26 for movie sonic and based on his backstory it makes sense.. because he was completely in a new and strange world and knew nothing about it ofc he was so unsure and looked vulnerable so it makes sense for movie sonic but for game sonic? No...this would just diminish the character's core entirely! Considering how strong he is in terms of power level too... dealing and killing dangerous vilains and monsters and literal dimensional gods at multiversal level such as time eater,solaris, erazor djinn,dark queen (from black knight), the end and the titans recently etc what made his character so cool in the beginning so reducing that and completely make him look weak and vulnerable defeats the purpose of what sonic is about it takes away that edge that coolness away from him and that cockiness etc...same thing Can be said for his Comic counter part Archie sonic(which we all know his deal and how op he is ☠️☠️ like seriously this man literally reset his entire multiverse... that's insane!).
... Please don't pour precious time and energy into a project you intend to pool hate. That being said, if you think there is merit in Javid's idea... I say go for it.
@@jettvalen7326 I'm not trying to pool hate, I'm trying to see how Javid's idea would go if executed well. But I'm probably not going to get into it since I have 4 other things to do. 😅
the idea of the pitch always seemed to be an oxymoron by itself, pointing out sonic's flaws (specially boom's) while double downing what boom was doing while being much more 'generically indie' about it. the idea itself is cool, however its not sonic and its simply its own thing, not even an artstyle change would fix it as its still not sonic. it also doesnt help that all the 'criticisms' that the era had is silently shown in the pitch itself: no story, no friends, keep it 2d, no talking, oversimplify it; and yet what they kept preaching about ended up being this and sonic 4, which both are not good things for sonic to have
it’s kinda weird how little he actually understands the appeal of sonic for someone trying to pitch a new 2D sonic game,the personality is the appeal, sonic has more depth than people give him credit for, sonic was made to be cool but he was also meant to be kinda punk by design, he’s a very specific brand of cool
Another thing I really fucking dislike about the og video is the vibe of "haha adults don't want to play BABY GAMES for BABIES." Like...Bro doesn't even have the hindsight excuse for that one the Wii was massive with people of EVERY age.
One reboot that I am particularly a fan of is Mark Flynn's "Sonic the Hedgehog Reboot Concept" and the followup video. I want to say that it's more or less what this concept was trying to achieve with more understanding of (classic) sonic's appeal. it genuinely just feels like what if classic sonic was made today while keeping everything that made people love classic sonic. and based on the like and dislike ratio i imagine it's generally well liked of course its still alienating to post classic fans but you know, the direction of these is so different that sega at this point treats them as two separate continuities
I saw that guy's video, but even he seems to have this toxic mindset that "if we get rid of Sonic's stupid friends and call the bad guy Robotnik instead of Eggman then everything will be a million billion squillion kajillion times betterer!" I just don't agree with this "get rid of it" mindset when it comes to Sonic. Storytelling? "GET RID OF IT!" World building? "GET RID OF IT!" A varied and fun cast of characters who fans love and want to see being better utilised and treated with some dignity again? "GET RID OF 'EM! NOTHING GOOD ABOUT 'EM WHATSOEVER! YOU CAN'T HAVE 'EM COS I DON'T LIKE 'EM!" It's ridiculous! It's like, what are you left with if these whiners got their way?
@@bowmaj8666they still call him Robonik by his name too in the movie so that ain't gone, and Sonic's so called stupid friends were never a problem. I love these characters and the pitch ain't all bad, there's a few good ideas. But getting rid of what made the series great comes off more biased than actually improving it. But that's not his job, it's just an idea after all. We all could make our own videos of concepts we have as well and it's really meant to be fun and let us understand each other better
@@bowmaj8666 I could have sworn I ones wrote a super sized comment going over all of my issues with his idea on one of his videos but it doesn't seem to exist anymore. But yes just about every aspect of his pitch is wanting to twist the franchise to his specific nostalgic wants.
@@rynobehnke8289 Seems about right. I once left a comment on, I think it was his second video on that topic, asking him why he seemed so determined to make sure that Sonic's friends straight up couldn't be in his reboot, and he didn't give me an answer. He just kind of shrugged off my criticisms.
On paper, I wouldn't mind seeing a Sonic with water colors and that colored texture, (actually could've been something like a Lilo & Stitch style Sonic world. Which would've been so unique yet appealing.) But the execution of the design and changing him for the sake of changing it feels like a misfire. It's TOO different.
@@jskywalker58 Ooh! That would actually be really cool. That Y2K aesthetic fits Sonic. Especially in that Adventures-Heroes era. Also, Idk, but I would love to see a Treasure Planet style Sonic as well. Like imagine Dr Eggman looking something like John Silver with that cyborg arm? That’d be so badass.
Sonic doesn't really need a reboot, most IPs don't- but it could always use AUs or alternate takes on the Sonic formula the same way Transformers and TMNT IPs do. You can much more easily build off of the passion the audience has through a "what if" approach and do your own take on it- than you can sell the idea of a "new definitive version" that's somehow supposed to "replace" what they already love for a multitude of various reasons not all shared by the audience (especially if your "reboot" fails to capture the initial appeal of the predecessor, since that just divides new and old fandoms). Thus why I feel, Sonic Fans don't want someone to tell them what Sonic is supposed to be, but they do have a lot of passion to see an artist/storyteller show what they love about Sonic showcased as a "what if"- through the talent and vision of someone who shares their passion for the IP. The idea to add purchasable/consumable power ups for example, instead of having a level design and checkpoint system that revolves around speed running to utilize said power ups for the sake of exploration/completion seems kinda wild to me. What would be the narrative reason for Sonic to pull out CRTVs with power ups inside out of his back pocket in exchange for rings? Is that more satisfying than running around a landscape covered in palm trees and synthwave aesthetic elements that Sonic's original game aesthetic and music are rooted in? I think not. His overall level design approach feels boring by comparison to the original, with the exception of adding some player choice. To me, Sonic should feel more like a brightly colored 80's-90's nostalgia oasis of freedom and chill living paradise, contrasted by the industrialized and dystopian cyberpunk like future of Dr. Eggman and his technology either coercively or greedily invading the lives of Mobians caught in the middle. It's a tale of human vs nature, but it's also all about nostalgia for people at this point and leaning more into neon graffiti & hiphop/funk vibes in urbanized concrete jungles, or casual fun resort getaway scenery such as palm tree lined beaches with giant sunflowers and summer fun vibes and synthwave electronic beats, with a rock and roll protagonist that gets in the middle to kick it up a notch to save what he loves, but we all know aside from having fun and loving being a hero, he would rather just relax. The challenge for Sonic games is balancing exploration with the sense of high octane speed. It's hard to do both, as for one you want the player to slow down and take it in, and with the other you want them to feel like they are mastering the levels to such an extent that they literally blur by everything. Pizza Tower may be an example of a good balance of the two, and games like that may be good examples for what Sonic Team could look to, as I don't know how much I want to see resource management in a game like Sonic unless it's tied to payoffs for movement/mastery, and then it should be, like you said in your video response, optional but effective. My biggest issue with Javed's reboot design is that it is devoid of all of the aesthetic and style appeal of the IP that fans already love. His idea feels more like a spiritual successor devoid of the things I love about Sonic than it is a reboot, and that's a problem. Don't label it a remake, don't label it a reboot, just say "this is my take" and pitch it as that, it's way easier for fans to swallow and doesn't threaten to "replace" what they love, instead you simply add onto it with an example of what could be.
If Sega had done what he suggested with this redesign, it would have aged like milk. That Adventure Time aesthetic isn't popular now. IMO, that's a good thing because I never liked that aesthetic, but that's not even the point.
The pitch itself wasn't bad, maybe even would have lead to good games. But it operates on the faulty idea that a lot of 2010's people reviewers and fans included subscribed to, that the issues plaguing Sonic, is everything that makes it good.
I don’t know if it’s intentional or not but I like that in the remade sonic run animation. He his holding his back pack straps in the same arm formation that he that he uses in the classic games.
11:22 Yeah people DID NOT get with unleashed sonic fans and journalists alike. Which is upsetting because Sonic Unleashed is still imo a fantastic game and deserves way more than what it got. Thankfully people started to realise that a while ago
@@reggielacey2235unfortunately it's true, people with a huge following on Twitter are the main culprits as they send the video to hundreds of their followers to attack that one person
I think the biggest problem with this video is that the data collected and presented has almost zero application to the actual redesign of the franchise. Like you pointed out, he says most fans want the original games, but he doesn't cater to them in the slightest. It really does feel like it caters more to the reviewers who make it a living to dunk on the franchise, moreso than what fans might actually want. Because yes, appealing to the ign reviewer who said he'd rather die than listen to more sonic music is the exact audience we should target.
Javed's Sonic feels less like the "perfected" reboot with the most appeal, and more like if Sonic was first made in the modern year rather than 1991. I'm not opposed to something like it existing, but I feel like applying Sonic to this feels more less like "honing in on what works" and more like "removing anything controversial". I don't think he deserves being attacked so much for his pitch, but videos like these are always why I try to present my ideas as subjective rather than calling myself right or trying to speak on behalf of an audience. And like I said in some of your pitch videos, I'm also just tired of discussing what Sonic NEEDS to be. Sonic may flip flop between gameplay, aesthetic, and tone, but to me, execution is more important than concept. I'd be more than happy with Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Lost World, Sonic Forces, and Rise of Lyric being part of the same franchise if they were all great games. People may have latched onto Sonic in the 90s for his rebellious style, but he earned his longterm appeal by providing consistently good experiences which all brought something new to the table.
45:36 tbh i see why, i can see a game like this kinda flopping, and even the design and idle animation reflects it, sonic does not look iconic at all he looks like a character that could be bullied to death, he looks sad and unprepared, if u just look at sonic (modern) he doesent give of that vibe of scared/unprepared its more a charm or cocky ness he has, and also he just looks cool
I think the guy tried. But after a decade of Sega already playing it 'safe' with the 2010's, this guy's telling them to lose the ambitious will to experiment, which will make the series stagnate. For better or worse, Sonic has done a lot, from running around a checkered pattern island saving little creatures, to out running the military, to fighting Genies and Legendary Kings in Books and so on. On the surface I wouldn't change it. Sonic Team just needs to nail a consistent gameplay style and cut down the over reliance of automated events or puzzles that insults the player, stop being ashamed of Characters that aren't Sonic and when applicable have a Story that does the characters justice.
Reboots betray fans into not wanting to buy it cause its not what or why they like it, also sonic doesnt need a reboot with how much world building it got, 2010s sonic was lowest of lowest but at least hes back and a reboot would just hurt everyone the company sega and the fans bro this video probably caused sonic boom to be made
I can understand why people were so upset. This guy pretty much said, "Let's strip Sonic of all his personality other than he's the good guy." Plus, I feel that the problems with previous Sonic games is not its world and characters, but strange design choices, Sega rushing the devs to complete the game before perfecting it, and certain stories needing a little more time in the writing department to bring out their true potential.
Probably wouldn't have started on TH-cam if not for that original reboot video by goodblood. Didn't agree with much of it but found it proper inspiring!
Your Sonic Spirit Video is Really Good. I will say an idea I had for your video was including the 2 Act Aspect but have Act 1 be the Music Level Style from Rayman Legends and Act 2 be the Slower Level... Up Until The Boss Fight which is again a High Speed Setpiece. So essentially 70-75% of the Game is High Speed Action and the other 30-25% is Slower Platforming.
It definitely seems like people went too far when throwing hate at this guy but I can still understand how they say the video’s bad (they just could’ve toned it down), I mean I don’t think I’ve ever heard a more serious misunderstanding of Sonic at least in a long time, prime example being when describing his face. Sonic. The freaking. Hedgehog. A BLANK CANVAS?!
I remember this one, i thought he had insteresting ideas, for anything NOT Sonic 😅, but even tho I thought what he was cooking was pretty weird, he should not have gotten all the flake he got.
Nah he deserves it. He was presenting himself as an expert on what Sonic should be when all he cared about were the Genesis games from the 90s and then pitched a ripoff of Ori and the Blind Forest
@@maroonkennedy6213 I honestly don't remember this part (I believe you it's just that my memory is terrible), but didn't he like, nuke his channel because of the reaction?
The beginning part about some Sonic fans is so true. How they go to such extreme lengths to "protect" Sonic from valid, constructive, and well intented criticism. But what's even worse is that it's a thing in almost any fanbase, especially ones decades old. People have grown up with what ever they like, and often times get offended when people say anything bad about it. While this is understandable, it doesn't excuse what some do about it. All those stories you've heard of about a fan from a certain series doing this or that (loud house, mlp, undertale, and Sonic of course are good examples), this is why.
I think this vision for the character fundamentally misunderstood why people enjoy Sonic to begin with. People weren't responding to the current formula because the games at that time weren't using it properly. So I think taking away what makes Sonic appealing character and gameplay wise is extremely flawed. I don't play Sonic games to play an indie platformer like Ori and the Blind Forrest. I play Sonic game to feel like a speedy badass. What makes me like Sonic more than Mario is the identity and personality that Sonic has.
I'm sure this got a lot of undeserved hate from the typical crazy fans, but I can also say, with respect for his own opinions and admiration for the visials he clearly worked hard on, I just think this pitch is really bad, misrepresents the series, the fans, the marketing for different games, the bery games it talks about and critiques and most importantly for making any pitch: it contradicts itself nearly constantly, making it very puzzling to follow... (Reboot to appeal the fans who are invested in the lore! That always works!) So I think the idea definitely deserved being discussed and critiqued, without hate, without threats of course, but I don't think it was fear over the possibility of Sonic going that way, I think it really was just a pitch that never would have been popular with Sonic fans overall despite having some interesting ideas, presented in a very questionable, albeit profesional and visually polished way... Again, I'm sure the creator got a lot of undeserved hate for a video he did out of love for gaming and Sonic specifically, but I believe you absolutely can respect him and his work while also disagreeing and finding issues in the points he presents such as SEGA's target demographic, 3D not ever working for Sonic, or Generations' popularity being attributed to Classic Sonic, etc, being presented as near factual points with very flimsy evidence... I'm glad he's doing well for himself and that this video being taken down didn't end his entire career or anything dramatic like that though, I wish terminally online Sonic fans could be a little more considerate even when disagreeing with someone and bring up valid counterarguments without attempting to mock the other person. I also definitely think this video wouldn't have been so deeply hated if it weren't for the fact that Sonic Boom really tanked the franchise's reputation after Lost World also being quite underwhelming, it really was a problematic time for the series and pitching a reboot right after an official reboot, well I don't want to call it poking the bear, I am well aware this was made for fun and with lots of passion for the IP, but I also really can't blame Sonic fans (those in their right minds) for not being thrilled at the ideas presented here...
Rewatching the video and the suggestions made in it, i realized smth. He talked abt heavier puzzle solving, more vulnerable character design, and it really clicked with me that a character in the series already has these qualities naturally: Tails. He naturally fits the bill way more, and you wouldn't have to sacrifice what is probably one of the most appealing character designs of all time for it. You also have less problems with the drastic change in gameplay since it's a spinoff
There would also be Amy which had puzzle solving in her SA1 gameplay, just about all moves he suggested by Advance 3 in 2d and was during the early 2000's clearly designed as a more vulnerable character.
It might also be bc it sounds like they dont appreciate what we have now and make it seem like a problem. 3d sonic has so much amazing potential and should keep being explored
I feel like this video was just poorly timed as well. Not only was this around the time of Sonic Boom, there was a Sonic Drought for a while. Then you have a well meaning guy come along to say "yeah Sonic isnt great right now. You know what would be good? A complete reboot that doesnt capture what makes Sonic Sonic and make into a generic Indie Title." In a vaccum makes you double take like what? How is this any better? Obviously it didnt deserve severe hate but it was intresting yet very misguided. Genuinely wouldve been better as an original IP.
As a man who is learning English a little, I was scared by your reaction to the pronunciation of the word "Sega". I hope I don't die speaking in my Slavic accent to anyone for the first time.
Nah I wouldn't make fun of someone's pronunciation. The world's a big place. Besides I have a lot of respect for people who can learn other languages. I've tried and it's very difficult.
It's fine to mispronounce things from time to time; it's a natural process of human learning. Personally speaking, I only had a problem with the fact that Javid called SEGA "SEE-GAH", because he was making the video directly addressing SEGA themselves! SEGA is an amalgamation of the title "Service Games", so naturally it's pronounced "SEH-GAH". The issue doesn't arise in the common dialect, the issue arises in the fact that Javid is falsely addressing the company, which can come across as disrespectful...
I remember seeing this video when I was a kid. I hated the redesign of sonic but I liked some of the other ideas. but I never knew the video got so much hate
An extrenely pretentious guy who only played the Genesis games is posturing himself as an expert on Sonix when all he did was make an Ori ripoff. The hate was deserved.
"Sonic could still compete with Mario. Why shouldn't he?" Because the International Olympic Committee wants to focus on NFTs. Oh sorry, what were we talking about?
GANG, remember. I am fully aware of how it feels to have people call you a POS en' masse, so that's not what we're here for. Constructive stuff ONLY. We're here to treat this, not as a boogeyman, but to simply discuss an idea.
Videos mentioned:
TelekinesticMan's Sonic Frontiers Critique: th-cam.com/video/-ntYsDby1mU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=JuEe_L6fUtiov5-_
Sonic Frontiers 2 - Pup Pitches: th-cam.com/video/mw94NBCbklo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=vhFqj9jodV0j-TR0
The PERFECT Sonic playstyle for the next game!: th-cam.com/video/FhRgoscYU-c/w-d-xo.htmlsi=kC7l_Mzpm0LB6V9v
Sonic's Biggest Problem and how to fix it: th-cam.com/video/RCDbuQMnADI/w-d-xo.htmlsi=VMBZPmnQEAjUGgXK
Just WHO is Sonic the Hedgehog?: th-cam.com/video/UPJs6Sbh0M8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=NyxPpPBE34E2aZSc
am really amazed n supriesd about how u was able to have the modestie and the patience and the politeness of respecting this guy message and order to (sonic team (and not sega)) with an huge level of respect from u , because i dont like the people who meddling thier selfs and throws evry sonic thing (lore) on the garbage like the movie did just to give he's own touch on all the franchise like that he's sonic team by it self , thinking that he ill success like that at the level of changing the sonic design and giving thats ugly thing , especially when he knows nothing about sonic
sonic are great like he is that's the reason of he's success and thats why idw succeed by using the lore like he is at the place of throwing it by selfishness n arrogantly on the garbage
so i have nothing else than respect to how u respect him and he’s projects back after that he propose a plagia to séga , oh and great oc
heh this guy (who propose hes projects) reminds me some sonic n sonic fans haters (an frenche youtube chanels called trash)
Pup, your reaction to this whole video is basically how I feel about Sonic Frontiers. Not only are you making a game that's inclusive, you're alienating people who disapprove of a change they (or few people like I) don't think would fit with Sonic. To me, having Sonic go from Shonen to Seinen is extremely niche, and doesn't fit with the general idea that Sonic is meant to be approachable for both kids and adults. Sonic Frontiers feels more like it was aiming for young adults and older, alienating the younger demographic in my honest opinion. I will never trust Ian Flynn with anything Sonic related, if he keeps insisting that this is what Sonic should be.
Also, we have seen "Vaulnerable" Sonic in previous examples as well, prior to the live-action movie. For me, it's the DiC Cartoon Shows, Sonic Adventure 1&2, Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic Unleashed and Sonic Lost World. The first example is a lot like the Movie Sonic, just without the convoluted narratives; and while AoStH isn't very heavy on how vulnerable he is, I do like that Sonic isn't completely apathetic. Adventure 1&2 is more subtle in it's approach, although Sonic doesn't show it, he does tend to get surprised or worried whenever things don't work in his favor. The reason I bring up Secret Rings and not Black Knight is because Sonic doesn't put himself above the main objective, putting the safety of others before him. Okay, maybe I'm stretching on this one, but I just despise how they treated Sonic like a God at the end of Black Knight. Unleashed, while the narrative is limiting, at least Sonic felt sensitive about the situation he's in on the predicament he got into. Finally, Lost World, while not exactly the best story out there, at least had Sonic go through grief over the mistake he had caused.
"SEGA should focus on it's old fans, so let's take away all the things that made the old fans interested in the franchise and implement Ori 2.0!"
Meanwhile mania stepped in and gave us what we wanted
He never properly diagnosed the actual problems with the Sonic IP, and instead projected issues onto the totality of Sonic’s world, stories and characters, pretending to understand why the games have had their failings, and fixing nothing in the process.
This sounds remarkably identical to all the voices and critics that had helped forge the ‘meta’ era of Sonic as we know it, and it’s a very easy trap to fall into, since all it requires is for the person to take the nuclear approach, and alienate the fanbase.
Just wanna say that I respect that creator, and his pitch, and I respect the effort and love he clearly gave to his idea. -But this is very bluntly the source of his error.
Exactly this, it’s people like this (Sonic Team listening to them) is why Sonic had such an identity crisis in the 2010s and why the majority of the cast other than Sonic, Tails, Eggman, Orbot, and Cubot were painfully underutilized
exactly again sonic great like he is and u can't understand it by searching and checking on the surface
I don’t really respect his pitch. It was bad, end of. I respect his right to make it, but it ain’t due any respect itself.
@@reginlief1 Perfectly fine. I fall closer to Pup in respecting the fact he went the whole mile, and gave his radical opinion irrespectively in a very creative graphic. It wasn't a good idea, but I can respect that he had it.
@@hihi-nm3uy I mean sure, credit due for impressive visuals. But it went towards something inherently flawed.
That design is emblematic of everything I hate about game design. Safe bland corporate
Yeah this has soulless ad or funko pop all over the character designs.
Ngl the reboot video kinda shows the reception of sonic in the 2010 post boom
No friends because that’s bad
No story because blue hedgehog can’t have story
no voice acting as we know. Sonic never talked in the 90s except all the times he did
I’m really glad that 2010s is over because even though it’s how I got into sonic
It must’ve been depressing for a bunch of people
Yeah...the direction they took in 2010's really diminished the story telling of sonic and the characters like it was really sucks to see them just in sidelines which resulted most of the characters of the series get neglected Amy,tails,knuckles, shadow etc... only because of ((sonic's stupid friends)) criticisms they just played safe.. fearing that if they include playable characters people will hate them..I am honestly glad frontiers shattered this curse
To be fair, he never said there "shouldn't be a story" in the pitch. He was taking the simple approach found in the classic games, saying that we don't need every detail exposited to us to be engaged.
People say Sonic never talked in the 90s when he was more talkative than Mario.
@@shellder_gaming"im outta here"
Yeah cuz pretty much anyone who didn’t even care about sonic would act like they’re terrible takes should be listened to because “hurr durr sonic boom bad”
Bro tried to turn sonic into a stereotypical generic indie game 😂😂😂
Mark over here erased the history for his reboot video and that was far worse and he also pulled gameplay elements from ray man and ori
Person who has only played Braid:
@@Sonic-q6i yeah his reboot reminded me of Rayman Legends which I like but Sonic should be Sonic and not copy Rayman Legends, at least not for a reboot, a spinoff or fan game's fine though.
Not even that, more like a generic animated kids' movie.
XD
Basically his solution was to make Sonic not Sonic
His whole pitch was "I know more about what makes Sonic great than long time fans even though all I did was play the Genesis games so here's my Ori and the Blind Forest ripoff"
@@maroonkennedy6213 no it would be will of the wisps because ori can actually attack in that game
@@maroonkennedy6213 lmao just noticed that you said this same thing like 5 times on other comments, do you have something against ori?
@@choesta lol I like Ori. I own a physical copy of both games on Switch, but Ori is one of those games that appeal to pretentious game journalists types
@@maroonkennedy6213well you can still like it even if it appeals to them, if you enjoy that's all that matters. Not the critics
This video was basically saying "Sonic should be more like that good boy Mario" without saying such, and as a big fan of Nintendo and their games, I'd hate that for the Sonic franchise or any SEGA franchise.
Which is weird since he made the video around the time of lost world, which did try to be like mario....and people didn't like it. (Sonic fans because it was trying to be like mario instead of Sonic, and others because it was not enough like mario or that the Sonic stuff was the problem for them.)
Javed was a member of H.A.G this whole time 🤯
same opinion but as a sonic fan (hes great like he is and he don’t need to satisfy any one or copying any one)
That was more similar to Rayman legends than actually Mario in my opinion. Rayman games are great but Sonic should keep his own identity and appeal which I think he has plenty off (classic and modern iterations feel really diferent and both have their own appeals honestly).
@@keelanbarron928 I actually like Sonic Lost World but I do admit that it wasn't the direction Sonic should go in. I don't mind it being just a one off release or a spinoff side series though.
Game would be fine as a little indie adventure title, he’s got some good ideas. It’s just he tried to put Sonic into the equation and removed everything people actually like about the character. Like yeah fans love Sonic because he’s an indistinct wide eyed, timid loner who moves at a snail’s pace?
he honestly should have just pitched it as an original game with a original character, he has interesting ideas its just not really sonic
He did I believe. It became its own game @@jskywalker58
I think my biggest problem is this looks like a 2013 era indie game instead of a blockbuster new sonic game.
Sonic Mania proved the retro future 90s aesthetic is timeless. Project 06 proved that Sonic friends can work with or without their own unique gimmicks. The real issue always was Sega's lack of quality control.
Bam, and overcorrecting everything. But that quality control is what kills them. We need new heads at Sega honestly that won't do that, and give the series a healthy amount of budget, time, and team size for any team that works on Sonic
Yeah like honestly all they have to do is just to make the game good.
@@sonicmaiden2871 Yeah, just stick to an idea and then build off of it. Sonic Team keeps throwing the baby out with the bath water.
@@kap1618 yeah that's kinda what the main games used to do till Sonic 06. Hopefully since Sonic Frontiers they'll start doing that again.
I find it funny how he says that kids just don't care about Sonic anymore, yet half of the people at the theater that I watched Sonic 2 at were, in fact, children.
That was a long time ago with boom, but again I still agree, there are Kids that cared about Sonic even back in Boom days. I mean, I was one of them. Wanting to watch an episode before I went off to school so he is wrong about that
In my local theatre most of the audience on both Sonic movies were kids and teens so I can confirm.
I swear sonic discussion was horrible back then, outside the fanbase there was literally no sense of nuance when it came to discussing what worked in the games and what didn’t
Ppl could literally say anything about the franchise and it would’ve been seen as legitimate criticism cuz “sonic boom bad”, “sonic 06”, “rough transition to 3d”
It’s how we ended up with stuff like ppl hating on there mere idea of sonic’s friends actually doing something cuz “sonics stupid friends” and 06 had multiple playable characters ig
And let’s not forget the iconic “sonic shouldn’t be telling stories, he’s a blue cartoon hedgehog who runs fast” meanwhile stuff equally as ridiculous as sonic like tmnt, kingdom hearts and adventure time told more focused and serious stories
The ideas he presented in that video would’ve worked as a tails spin of game ngl, minus the artstyle
Only thing I can agree with about this pitch is that Sega needs to make a hand drawn 2D Sonic game. God that’d go so hard with the right art direction.
Into the sonicverse 😮
@@meticulouselectronics A sonic game with spiderverse visuals would also go incredibly hard. Thankfully it looks like we’re seeing something like that with the Jet Set Radio reboot so yippeeee🙏🙏🙏
We technically already got one with The Murder of Sonic
Something that leans into the style of the Sonic CD cutscene style would be great
Absolutely no offense to Javed, I wish the man all the love and respect in the world,
But man in the year 2024.... this video has aged SOO poorly.
Oh undoubtedly, especially now that Sega have found more success by tapping into the elements that this version was shying away from the most.
He literally just wanted to turn Sonic into Rayman Origins
"Wide eyed" points to literal beady eyes. XD
I mean, compared to "o_o", "0_0" seems pretty wide eyed to me.
@@cobalt_effect Those are "Tall eyes".
O_O would be wide eyes. 🤓
@Okamikurainya Oh yeah, how about this? "⚪️_⚪️"
The most fundamental issue with the video to me is that he cites the low point of the series as the drastic reboot… then says the solution is an even more drastic reboot. That and saying Sega should appeal to long time fans by… throwing out everything established about Sonic? The video’s messaging just feels confused to me, he either didn’t think this through very far or put a bunch of time and effort into the video before realizing the issue and finished it anyway. He clearly put a lot of effort into it, which is why it’s so strange that it’s such an ill-conceived idea when you think about it for more than a few seconds.
It's like "Yeah, let's drastically change Sonic's design.... right after a large portion of fans absolutely lost their minds when they only slightly changed Sonic's design!"
Yea with the suggestion of doubling down on having ANOTHER reboot - despite saying "think of the long term fans and their knowledge of the franchise!" - seem a lot like...
"No, no! Dig up, stupid!"
It makes sense when the idea of "long time fans" is Genesis Sonic fans. As in the classic 3 (or five games depending if you count CD and if you count S3&K as two games).
This does describe a group of people, but the game they wanted was Sonic Mania.
@@mdstevens0612 The truth is that Sega could've fully well made a game similar to Mania with the Modern character designs and even featuring popular characters such as Shadow, Silver etc.
However, because of how many Sonic "fans" were throwing hissy fits over Sonic's eye colour of all things in Sonic 4, Sega now feels obligated to treat Sonic's older design like an entirely different character with its own separate game series that basically hogs the best received Sonic gameplay style. All this Classic/Modern divide is say "only characters with a black eyed classic design can be in these games, and any character created between 1998 and 2022 can't have a black eyed design!" It all just feels so pointless and petty.
@@bowmaj8666 they did exactly a 2d Sonic game with modern designs in the Sonic Advance games. Such a good series! I wish they made more games similar to those!
That reboot just looked over simplified of characters to it’s official counterpart.
Imo sonic doesn’t need to change drastically, sega is just a shitty anti consumer company that pushes for deadlines and games can’t be finished on time. If the game is good, it will sell.
Kiryu spiffing
FACTS
Yeah, to be honest, this is the only REAL, factually irrefutable statement. Sonic Frontiers had all the potential to be a masterpiece; nothing less than that. But if a franchise doesn't sell, oh well, SEGA will crunch it and turn it into a niche-DLC-generating machine. Or not, since they do the same for their most famous series today
@@rubber161 yeah and with segas recent initiative to make something brand new every year for their “three pillars”; (sonic, persona and yakuza) wether it be a game, show or movie, I think it’s just too much. Yeah I get sonic fans can be rabid not getting something all the time but the series could be sooooo much better if sega let sonic team cook more. We wouldn’t even stuff like the sonic 06 and boom fiasco if they weren’t so strict and honestly I feel sonic wouldn’t be laughed at as much by the public upon releasing buggy and unfinished games.
@@burritobison7700 That news sent chills down my spine when I read it. I thought it was a joke at first, so to find out it was real, just... Like, wow. Have they never seen what that did to every major company in recent years? Absolutely capable of ruining series.
I mean... It also gave them lots and lots of money, so...
I rlly think the best target audience for Sonic, is the shonen crowd! The fan favorite sonic games lean into the cheesy and epic side of the character, his personality and vibes. I rlly feel like 12 and up is the best bet for Sega to aim for.
Lol I don't wanna sound mean but you kinda summarised why I neither like new shonen anime and sonic the hedgehog...
I mean, sonic is an anime, so it’ll make sense.
Honestly that's really what should be done or should have been the direction to stick to when the adventure games existed. But ever since sega was bought by sammy in 2004-2005, the sammy corporation literally ruined sonic by changing their target audience.
@@alessandroaleman4512even old sonic is pretty shonen tho
I mean, it’s no secret that Sonic takes a lot of inspiration from DBZ, so it makes sense.
He graduated from a game design school and he definitely talks like it. From the air dash, to the Lanky Funko Pop design, to the unnecessary inventory, to the watercolor backgrounds, removing the voice acting, and focusing on gameplay only. Plus, this being in hindsight and seeing how there's so many generic indie games released over the past decade with these exact same qualities, I'm assuming that this is exactly what he was taught in school to be Good Game Design™ without really innovating on the fundamentals they taught him.
Not to be rude, but he sounds like an excellent student, which is what likely gave him the confidence to make this video in the first place. But at the time of this video's publishing he didn't seem to be much of an innovator. You have to applaud his confidence and attempt to offer a solution, constructive feedback is always infinitely more helpful than carelessly slamming an idea and walking away.
When you say "it scared Sonic fans", that may be true, but can you honestly blame them for being scared?
We've seen time and time again that Sega tends to listen to the harshest of critics rather than their own fans, and I honestly don't think the games benefit from this.
"You like a bit more content in a Sonic story than just Sonic vs Eggman? WELL TOUGH! Critics absolutely hate Sonic stories and say that only gameplay matters!"
"You like the supporting Sonic cast and you think that they add some variety and creative ideas to the franchise? WELL TOUGH! You can't have 'em cos other people don't like 'em!"
"You like it when Sonic games take themselves seriously and have actual integrity? WELL TOUGH! It's just a cartoony blue hedgehog! You CAN'T take that seriously! Cos it just comes across as silly and dumb! And the only people who like this are obviously just furry weirdos, so they don't count! At least that's what the critics who don't even like Sonic games are always telling us, and they must know what they're talking about... Right?"
his pitch was something a western dev would make to ruin a beloved franchise , his pitch sucked imo, but there is no doubt on the amount of effort and time he put into it. he should've never been haraseed
Thank God Sonic never took this advice. What an awful pitch. "Let's rob the series of all its unique identity and turn it into a generic indie game"
I mean, I think they did a little of that with Superstars and the Chaos emeralds. But besides that I think a lot of ideas from a lot of Sonic games can work for both 2D and 3D
11:20 A lot of fans don’t realize this but Secret Rings had a lot of positive reviews back in the day, it’s bad reputation now is kinda revisionist history. Similar to Sonic Chronicles, critics were hailing them both as average to good, but fans in the Twitter & TH-cam critic era hate them both.
i honestly like the game, i didn't really mind the controls probably because the wii was my first console so i kinda grew up on motion control gaming
I’m pretty sure critics only gassed that game up cuz it didn’t have sonics friends as playable characters, also early Wii hype
The only reason those 2 got positive reviews was simply because they weren't sonic 06. Secret rings sucked mostly because of the poorly handled motion controls and the idea of inserting sonic into a storybook (like seriously was sonic team just running out of ideas at that time) and chronicles sucked because of the music and battle system mechanics, even the graphics were ugly especially when we had the rush games looking better than what chronicles had.
@@AutZentus you don't think the storybook concept was a good idea?
@@jskywalker58 I'd say its Interesting. But I also kinda doubt that I would say with no hesitation that its a good idea
Maybe that's just me tho
To me, the issue lies moreso on the opposite where everything revolving around Sonic is always seen as bad and terrible, how every single new game is just a bad Sonic game, and how Sega fails to understand what makes Sonic so great, and how we need to go back to the Genesis formula and abandon everything else. The series isn't ever allowed to try new things or go through new directions because "that's not Sonic", and every single new game in the series is bad or disappointing.
Well, technically Sega can try new things with Sonic. The problem is that most "fans" insist that he can't have green eyes or speak while he's doing them.
Seriously, a lot of Sonic fans out there insist that their complaints have nothing to do with Sonic's design, but honestly the more I delve into it, that's clearly not true.
People always complain about silly superfluous things about the most recent Modern titles, but when a "Classic" game does something similar, then suddenly no one bats an eyelid!
Take the Sonic supporting cast. People have complained about practically every single member of the Sonic supporting cast for some ridiculous reason or another ("too many characters! Sonic's stupid friends, am I right?), then suddenly they introduce a "New Classic character" in the form of Trip the Sungazer, and I swear I've not heard a single bad thing about her.
Now that's not me criticising Trip, I actually think that she's a fun new addition to the cast, I just find that a tad suspicious. It can't just be because she's a "Classic" character, can it? So I've looked into this. A lot of fans seem to prefer Classic Sonic games because they have traditional 2D Sonic gameplay, and a very basic story with no voice acting, plus the alternative playable characters are pretty much optional. So I've been thinking, they should just make a game like that with Modern Sonic characters. Include fan favourites like Shadow, Rouge, Cream, Blaze, or Silver. That way these characters can finally be in a game where people aren't going to unfairly use them as a scapegoat as to why the game is bad! These characters have never been in a traditional 2D Sonic platformer with the original momentum based physics of the original Sonic games, so it sounds like a cool idea to incorporate their unique abilities into this kind of gameplay. Not only that, they can also include characters like Mighty, Ray, Fang and even newcomer Trip if they wanted to. They just need to update their designs to match the other Modern characters, which is literally just a slightly taller build and coloured irises; that doesn't seem like a big deal to me, and it makes more sense continuity-wise than trying to make Classic designs for characters like Shadow, Silver etc! Plus, if they're completely optional, then even their most overly critical critics and haters and detractors will have no excuse to complain about them, because you don't have to play as them if you don't want to.
I personally think that this would be an interesting direction to take the series. Mixing both old ideas with new, and completely scrapping this Classic/Modern divide, which I honestly think is hurting the series more than helping it. Yet what's everyone's biggest complaint with this? "NO! CLASSIC AND MODERN SHOULD BE SEPARATE! TRADITIONAL 2D SONIC GAMES SHOULD BE CLASSIC CHARACTERS ONLY! THOSE STINKY MODERN CHARACTERS WOULD RUIN IT!"
It's always that whenever I bring it up, and it's just ridiculous! Trip isn't even technically a "Classic" character; she's a new character who's being marketed as a Classic character! It's just proof to me that the term "Classic" has no actual meaning anymore; it's literally just a marketing term at this point. Basically "Not Modern, so therefore good!" And what exactly makes her a Classic character? You guessed it! No coloured irises! People can deny it all they want, but it is literally all down to the eye colour to them! It's ridiculous!
@@bowmaj8666 I get what you mean you have no idea... everytime Sega do something news with sonic
Fans: omg...they are always inconsistent!, this doesn't feel like sonic...
etc always complaining about everything youbget what I mean it's like the series can try anything or any new direction because ((it doesn't feel like sonic))
You know...ngl when I first time saw sonic frontiers' world I did said ((it looks off and doesn't feel like sonic too) but then I reminded myself that this is sonic we are talking he never had any consistent art-style he's always changing.. because sonic isn't that type of character be limited in one art-style and if sonic team wants to go for realism then go for it..and I accepted it just like because believe it or not...this is not the first time they used realistic art style Sonic so it's not something out of ordinary for the franchise I mean sure the World wasn't exactly what I wanted but...just because sonic frontiers has a realistic art style and isn't my perfect child doesn't mean it's going to be a bad game .
@@bowmaj8666 oh my goodness, are you my twin?!? I've been saying this exact thing for YEARS!! Sonic's friends should be around to expand the story and bringing classic characters over to the 3D games would be so cool. But no they MUST stay in their respective dimensions, is what I've seen from most fans who apparently care about continuity. The classic and modern divide must END! I'm sick of the fandom being divided because the thought of these ideas joining together is apparently bad. Sega and Sonic Teams biggest issue in my opinion is overcorrecting everything, and I can kinda see why gate keepers get defensive. We need to find common ground that both these ideas can exist together, bringing good ideas from all Sonic games to create what could be an artistic imaginary compelling Sonic game
@@JakeThehedgehog-m1xI also agree, execution is everything and I believe the more realistic world could have worked by incorporating more realistic Sonic elements in the world along with designing the ancient geography and tech better into the landscape. Also designing the world so that Sonic can interact with it better by having at least an invisible layer on top the world so Sonic isn't jittering on uneven terrain
@@derple8524 My friend, I have been saying this for years too!
I'm going to show my age, but I've been playing Sonic games since I was a kid, and even long before the days of the internet, there was always this toxic attitude towards almost superfluous things. People nowadays complain that there are too many Sonic characters? Well back in the day there were people who couldn't even handle the inclusion of Tails!
And the Classic/Modern divide just gets on my nerves. Mainly because it just feels like people are associating everything that they love about the series with Classic Sonic, and just lumbering all of the stuff they hate on Modern Sonic.
And it seems so pointless. The only reason that we even got a Classic Sonic in the first place was because people were whining about Sonic's darned eye colour in Sonic 4. And it's the determination that people have to keep this divide going. People will always say things like "Why can't both Sonic's exist? Just accept it!" Yet they're the ones who can't accept that they're supposed to be one and the same.
I've been accused of being a "Classic Hater" and even a "Modern Moron" for my opinions. For the record, I love games like Sonic Mania and Superstars, I just don't see what this obsession is with Sonic's older design. People keep telling me "It's not about the design!" Yet when you try to propose a new game with the original Sonic gameplay but with the Modern designs, they're totally against it. "NO! THAT'LL NEVER WORK! THE MODERN CHARACTERS WOULD RUIN IT! YOU CAN'T JUST GET RID OF CLASSIC SONIC!" So, it is about the design for them, isn't it?
It's actually refreshing to hear Sonic fans who agree with you. Hope to hear from you again!
I think what caused the reaction is basically people feeling like Sega would take on this guy's example and actually apply it, this came out during a time when Sonic was in an even worse position than 06, and bullying and making fun of the franchise was not only accepted, but encouraged. People went overboard, but that's because they felt the need to defend the franchise they love and can't say I blame them (I do know how that feels when a random idiot calls Amy a stalker for the bajillion time).
Besides, it felt like Javed's decision was to ax everything the Sonic franchise is known for to make it more in line with other mascots. Mario doesn't talk, Pac Man doesn't talk, Megaman doesn't talk (mostly), Crash doesn't talk, and Sonic spouts full lines of dialogue, that alone says how different he is from them. And not hearing of other characters during the video felt like another "get rid of Sonic's stupid friends" solution.
I agree! That's what really bugs me whenever I hear people complaining about the Sonic series these days. No matter what people are complaining about nowadays, it doesn't feel like that long ago that people were complaining about the complete opposite.
Nowadays people complain that the stories are too simple and silly, and never take themselves seriously. Years ago people were complaining that the stories were too complicated, and too edgy and try hard, and that you simply CAN'T take a cartoon like Sonic seriously.
People today complain about how Sonic's friends aren't being properly utilised. Yet people have complained about every single solitary supporting character in the Sonic series since the introduction of Tails! Plus people throw hatred on them even when they're arguably at their best!
Nowadays, people complain about the current voice actors, claiming that the last ones were perfect. Yet back when they were voicing these characters people were literally saying the exact same thing about the voice actors that came before them!
Now I'm aware that the Sonic fan base is made up of lots of different people with differing opinions, but this is proof to me that Sega needs to stop letting the most negative of criticisms dictate what the franchise can and can't be. This isn't doing the franchise any good! I still to this day believe that the only reason that Sega introduced the idea of Sonic's older design being an entirely separate entity was because of the amount of fans complaining about Sonic's design in Sonic 4. They were already treating the two different character designs as separate characters, ("Urgh, that ugly stretched out green eyed Sonic sucks! The original chubby Sonic with black eyes is a bajillion times more betterer") all Sega did was make it official. And whilst on paper this can be seen as a good thing, all it's really doing is further dividing a divided fan base.
That and the execution was terrible. I think they tend to overcorrect things, but it's really hard to voice your opinion on this media cause of the differing opinions only because of the ideas instead of polishing what worked.
Javed loves Sonic just like the rest of us... but he doesn't seem to understand Sonic. I believe it's his biggest flaw in his creative pitch. There are similarities to Sonic in his ideas, but they lack Sonic's personality, function, level design philosophy, and pacing that makes Sonic... well, Sonic. If anything, these ideas seem to correlate more with Sonic Forces' Rookie character (vulnerable, using tools/items to progress, not very fast, etc.). Heck, this could take place in Sonic's world, but instead starring Miles "Tails" Prower utilizing his intelligence, along with the skills he developed from tagging along with Sonic for so long, on his journey to become his own realized hero outside of Sonic's shadow.
COMMENT 1
One thing I really like about his idea is that the element boxes should play a big role but the way he thinks they should be utilized is unreasonably restrictive to pacing and kills the momentum essential to a high speed based plat-former instead trying to jam in puzzle elements while putting a hard stop to the flow.
So instead I would go about implementing the elements so that it serves as a critical toolset to the traversal, platforming, and combat while preserving the essential momentum mechanics.
⚡️ 🔥 💧 Part 1: Elements are no longer restricted to capsules you jump on. Instead they are now implemented into segments of the ENVIRONMENT which will be made clear via visual effects: I.e. fire cluster for the fire aura (or shield), electrical fields and a region of lightning bolts for the magnetic/lightning aura, and water pools/lakes/waterfalls for the water/bubble aura.
Part 2: The expansion: Now here’s the thing NOW that the elemental powers are no longer restrained to their tiny capsules. Not only are they more accessible but they can also become THREATS and HAZARDS that the player needs to avoid or they will get damaged EXCEPT for.
Part 3: RINGS! Yes that’s right instead of having rings only serving as a recoverable life bar or an extra life now they can serve as part of a crucial access key to a completely different and more powerful play style. Once a player reaches an X amount of rings let’s just say 50 for example. They now unlock access to those elements and NOW what was once a threat to be actively avoided becomes an incredible Advantage to the player by gaining access to those powers and instead of trying to veer away from those areas you are now actively sprinting towards them! And if you reach 100 for example you activate an *invincibility* boost which will work a lot like the generations and Frontiers boost. This vastly changes one’s priorities by focusing on retaining your rings and being strategic and skilled in platforming combat while avoiding damage.
Part 4: The cool stuff. Now that the stage and the incentive structure has been set it’s time to delve into the powers from accessing these elements and their upgrades. You start off with the bare basics and are quite limited when it comes to traversal and combat. With the 🔥 fire aura you can obviously traverse on flammable surfaces and cause more damage to enemies. ⚡️ Lightning aura no damage on electrified surfaces and when making contact with an enemy via jump or boost attack it will stun that enemy making them vulnerable to attack for a short time. For 💧 bubble/water aura the player can stand and move slowly on water and they don’t run out of oxygen if underwater and they can easily jump out of the water. The ✨ invincibility boost will be unchanged.
COMMENT 3
🌊 🌪️ 🔥 ⚡️ Part 6: Element Combinations. Certain elements are able to combine with others to enhance one another’s impact and effectiveness but they have to be unlocked via combination upgrades. One of which is 💧 ⚡️ water and electricity. Without the upgrade if water and electric mix the water will become electrified and if the water ability is currently equipped then Sonic will get electrocuted and lose that element along with some rings, if the electric element is equipped then he will be immune to the electric current but if he goes underwater he will lose the electric element and promptly get electrocuted. With the upgrade both water and electric become compatible with each other and you can use either ability but you must have BOTH currently active. Water increases the range and damage of electrical fields and water tornadoes if electrified will generate lightning strikes within a certain range. With 🔥 💧 Fire and Water if over a flammable area and equipped with the water ability you will catch fire, lose that element and some rings. If over water and the fire element is equipped you will lose that element but take no damage. With the upgrade purchased both Fire and Water become equipped as long as both are active. When over lava with the water element you can use the exact same abilities for water but using lava instead. When near an 🔥 ⚡️ electrified area and equipped with the fire element Sonic will get electrocuted and lose that element and rings. The same vice versa with fire. With the upgrade purchased they become compatible with one another and buff each one’s attack damage and range as long as both are active.
Part 7: Counter balancing and element limitations. As stated before. Elements need to be acquired by running through them or over them (water) with a required minimal ring count to acquire the elements and access their abilities else they will be classified as a hazard (except water but you can drown) and they will hurt the player and lower their ring count. The other important thing to mention here is that these abilities although powerful can be taken away with just one hit and when the player loses it any of those related elements become hazards again and they have to find another element source and acquire it again with the access ring count and all upgrade tiers (attack/homing chains) will be reset but permanent upgrades will remain. Enemies of all different sorts, sizes, and HP will have different varying long range, short range, light attacks, heavy attacks, and critical attacks which will put the player to the test.
The level layout will be truly 3d open zone with the hierarchy of the faster (for example higher) the track the more difficult to it is to stay on it with descending tracks having lower overall difficulty but are slower and more combat intensive with more combat arenas to unlock the most accessible paths that have a low skill ceiling and DON’T require any elemental abilities but can be circumvented with high skill and mastery of the physics system or with the assist of the elemental abilities. The player can have all abilities *active* but can only have one equipped at a time which can be toggled/switched using the D pad. For an ability to be active you need to have simply acquired it and not been hit while that ability is equipped else you will lose it and it won’t be considered active anymore.
Because the player is able to rapidly transition between which elements are equipped this allows for them to be combined and linked together in a highly rewarding way and to the benefit of one another. Here’s what I mean:
Upgrade Tiers are ISOLATED to each element according to their corresponding attack or homing chains which means they will only count towards that chain if the attack used corresponds to that elements attack chain. (if performing a burst chain you must have the fire element equipped when attacking and hitting the enemy. Attacking with ⚡️ electric equipped will NOT contribute towards the 🚫 🔥 burst chain but the lightning chain. Attacking with 🔥 fire equipped will not contribute towards the 🚫 ⚡️ lightning chain.)
BUT even when switching out of an equipped ability its attack chain will still be running in the background and indicated on the screen. For example if you were in the middle of a 🔥 burst chain and switched to electric ⚡️ the chain will still be running in the background and won’t reset unless you touch a part of the ground or get hit. So say you still haven’t touched the ground and switched back to fire 🔥, that burst chain will be right where you left it and you are still able to increase it. The same applies to the lightning chain ⚡️ where the time limit is indicated on screen and still running down in the background and as long as it doesn’t run out and you switch back to electric ⚡️ and land another attack your lightning chain will increase! Now how cool does that Sound!
Now the variety and application of the mechanics may be too cumbersome and could be simplified but that’s not the main point. The main point is that this gameplay style distinguishes itself completely from Mario which still uses the old but still intuitive power ups and any other plat-former variant. This gameplay style makes attaining the powers itself challenging, risky, and dangerous but that much more rewarding and opens up a new and more powerful play style and also emphasizes the very unique ring system which aside from being used as part of a score, life bar, or boost gauge is still incredibly underutilized and doesn’t have much reason. NOW they become an essential component of the entire gameplay style to access a set of abilities which intuitively changes the way the player approaches the game elements, zone environment, and enemies BOTH on a traversal and combat oriented basis! It allows for vast experimentation, combination and style in addition to an amazing spectacle of high speed paced action that YOU create! Not to mention that this allows for vast replay-ability of existing zones or revisiting the same Zone with a different gameplay approach because of event triggers which can occur after reaching a set checkpoint or by defeating a certain large enemy/boss or mini-boss or can be object triggers which you can run, dash, attack, smash, or pound into all from your own control!
This is How you can bring the peak of Sonic 3 into a completely reimagined 3D Platform Action Adventure Spectacle for the Sonic franchise!
Yea this video totally misunderstood the appeal of Sonic
Even tho the hate was too much
@@lehashura490 yea. Typical Sonic fans
@@lehashura490 yeah...I think I can understand why sonic fans hated it but...I believe they gone overboard
I admit I went a little overboard on him it reminds me of when they tried to reboot DMC, and we went a little crazy with that.
@@hammerkirby5243fanboys. Do not crowd every sonic fan with those nonsensical people
last comment I'm gonna make but. You're giving the guy way too much benefit of the doubt. People didn't hate this cuz "the guys talented and people were scared", people hated it because it was a cynical culmination of anti sonic hate in the late 2010s, and it stripped away EVERYTHING that makes Sonic what he is. I will admit the dude has genuine talent, I cannot deny that, but what the pitch has in style is bogged down by a complete lack of adequate substance.
I saw this pitch back when it first dropped. I didn’t agree with it as a potential direction but I was shocked people took it SO badly.
I don’t think coming right off the heels of sonic boom helped
same i thought it was just an interesting idea at best
I think this video would have done a lot better in the long run if it wasn't framed as the definitive "fix" for Sonic. I could see this concept working as an ok mobile game, for example. As the end all be all solution for the series it comes across as misinformed at best, delusional at worst
I saw it back then as well. I thought that it would be a cool fan game idea but I wouldn't like the series to go in that direction to be honest. From what I remember, i didn't comment at all on that video back then.
This video has aged very badly considering what the movies and Frontiers have done for the general perception of the franchise. They basically doubled down on why audiences like these characters and world and it did pay off
The movies brought in way more kids than this Ori and the Blind Forest ripoff ever would
The main problem with the video is that it’s a bit pretentious to say « dear Sega look how your game could be better » when he just shows the opposite of what the Sonic franchise is all about. If the video was like « what would a hypothetical niche 2D puzzle Sonic game look like ? », it wouldn’t have been controversial and more interesting
Feeling like appealing only to the 18-30 year old demographic is such a executive thinking mindset. No matter what is done, sonic is always gonna appeal to kids. The kids of the 90s, 2000s, 2010s and beyond. Kids will just see sonic and go “wow he looks cool I wanna play that!”
That’s how I got into sonic with rush adventure and that’s how people and kids are gonna get into it with the comics, shows, games, and later movies.
Throwing out all of that for nostalgia would lead us to only getting mania as the only series of games. And while that can work, but there’s a reason why Sonics design changed with sonic adventure and evolved from there. He had to change with the times and that is what went down. Keeping sonic as a 2D sprite based platformer, would put sonic in the same place crash bandicoot went down from wrath of cortex until the n.sane trilogy.
Hop off crash, twinsanity is top 5 crash game, plus also we got huge adventure and n tranced during the 2000s
Sonic In the 90s targeted preteens as well
Not to mention the fact that a lot of kids think that they're "wise beyond their years" but tend to gravitate towards whatever the big opinions are at the time. If these wannabe TH-camrs start going "oh Sonic is so stupid! Sonic is for dumb little kids", then their audience of little kids will likely just jump on the hate bandwagon and start nodding along going "yeah yeah, it's for dumb little kids! And I'm not a dumb little kid! I only play grown up games, like FNAF, Fortnite and Minecraft!"
Honestly, I don't see the issue with marketing these games to long time fans who have been playing since the 90's; they can just do that in a way that doesn't divide and alienate the fan base!
@@bowmaj8666yeah, by just showing how cool he is in cinematic trailers. Just look at Unleashed intro. That's perfect marketing for all ages
I think Sega should see what adults don’t like about it. Writing wise, and hummor wise.
And use the story that focus on adults story wise. As a marketing tool to get kids into the game.
For example incredibles and Ghostbusters are to films that aren’t necessarily for kids.
But are so well loved there iconic kids moves.
Any kid who is mature enough to play video games, don’t need to be pandered to.
Lego dc villains is way less tacky and corny, then most modern sonic. And that panders to kids younger or the same as Sonic.
Now they have comic book writers write most of their games.
If there's anything Javed's pitch has shown me, it's that I really want a Sonic metroidvania.
Weren't the Sonic Boom 3DS games metroudvanias though? What's your opinion on those games?
33:00 man I’m so tired of this MYTH being perpetuated. Sonic did NOT have a rocky entry into 3D. They nailed it right out the gate with what’s STILL one of the best 3D controlling Sonic games.
It had a rocky stay in 3d
I don't think Javed deserved to receive hate for this (anyone rarely does). He clearly has passion for Sonic and had all the best intentions. With that said, these ideas clearly stem from a very specific view of Sonic as a brand and as a franchise, and not a particularly popular one at that. I think the pitch would've turned out better if Javed had considered what others had enjoyed about the series, not just the games but the comics and cartoons as well, instead of basing everything on his own perspectives and general sales statistics. I don't think he realized that many of the aspects he didn't care for and was doing away with without a second thought had resonated with many others and were an integral part of Sonic's modern identity.
remember me before i am buried under the comments
No, no I don't think I will.
No thanks
*is submerged in a pile of skulls like Henry Cavil Superman*
*Proceeds to do what deadpool did to logans grave*
*proceeds to put you in the ground in real life* 😀
I REMEMBER THIS.
Artist Mark Flynn has a great video with the same concept and I love his ideas waayyyyy more.
Mark Flynn's ideas were great. I think it's because he has done a ton of studying on what makes sonic popular without taking away what makes sonic, sonic. I loved his videos on going over each of the art styles Sonic has been in over the years
If I remember that video correctly, he brought it out after the first live action Sonic movie, and honestly his attitude seemed to be "well that movie was good because it solely focused on Sonic Vs Robotnik and threw out practically everything else in the Sonic lore!" As someone who made a rebuttal to his video once said "That isn't why it's good! There's so much more to it than just that! They are going to make a sequel and fans actually WANT more of the lore! They want Tails! They want Knuckles! They want the Master Emerald! They want Shadow! And if these things showed up that wouldn't ruin the movies; people would be excited!" And that's exactly what we got, and people loved it!
That's the main issue I have with his video. He actually establishes in this reboot the idea that Sonic and Robotnik (god forbid we actually call him Eggman) are the only characters, even going as far to establish that Robotnik actually made Sonic and that he is the only anthropomorphic animal in the world! It's not just that other characters don't exist in this reboot, he went out of his way to make it that they CAN'T exist in this reboot! I'm sorry, but who is this for, other than the "Sonic's stupid friends" crowd?
@@bowmaj8666 He should just play Crash Bandicoot if this is how he feels cause that's literally what he's proposing
@bowmaj8666 he did a second video where he introduced the idea of tails. Yeah, I do agree that theres some problems with his take, but a lot of his ideas I do find pretty interesting for a spinoff. The crash similarities are evident, yeah, but stuff like the uk comics did similar stuff. I do agree tho maybe he shouldn't have made all the sonic characters be lab experiments.
@@DURANDAL1007 It just felt like he based his entire reboot idea on that story description from the Western instruction manual from the first Sonic game, even down to Sonic's speed coming from his shoes.
Sorry, but that just seems like a very closed minded attitude towards this series. It's almost like he's saying "This game and it's story is perfect, and everything else that came after it ruined the entire franchise!" Now I know that he doesn't specifically say that, and that probably wasn't his intention, but the sad truth is that there are certain Sonic fans who think just that. Even down to going straight to the Western version, because they either don't know or refuse to accept that Sonic is technically a Japanese brand.
I think the core problem with the video is how it came hot off the heels of Sonic Boom, something people already didn't like how much it deviated from the original Sonic, and doubled down on those exact elements
i remember watching this for the first time, i was at a younger age at the time and didn’t really know too much about criticism and such. but good lord, after watching that video even my small kid brain knew how dumb that idea was, to make Sonic your casual background indie game with barely any story nor action and EVEN MAKING HIM SLOWER!? nah that’s crazy, if a kid with barely any type of knowledge of criticism knew how dumb that idea was then you knew someone fucked it up
I forgot about that old video. The ideas he pitch isn't bad for a game that is inspired by Sonic, we've had many games that was inspired by many different Sonic gameplays. But using a few of these ideas for Sonic himself...isn't going to go. He said Sega should aim for adults, but a lot of these don't sound like ideas that aim towards adult gamers, it still feels like it's aim towards kids. Adult Sonic game would probably be more like the Adventure games, but with heavier and deeper story or a bit more action, a lot of adults do like Dragon Ball, anime and action movies. As for Sonic games should tell their story through cutscenes instead of voice acting.. Superstars has already done this, and that was one of the criticisms that people had about that game, that no one understood what was going on in the game's story
Tbf imo superstars failed moreso in the execution rather than the idea itself
Yup, I'm in the upper end of the age demographic he claimed to be aiming at and I'd love something much more Adventure inspired; give me the shonen inspired Sonic with action, story and drama over this timid blue silent mouse.
If Forces had actually delivered on the story and took itself seriously instead of the shallow joke we got, I would have willingly overlooked the mediocre gameplay and happily considered it among my favourites. The seeds for what I wanted were all there, they just failed on delivering anything.
It was more so the story didn't make sense at all, first Eggman wanted to find a dragon but then he can all of a sudden time travel? Why? It was a mess because they didn't even know what they were doing with the story, just throwing anything at the wall and hoping it sticks
@@mrmelonman2893yeah exactly
The gameplay style he pitched would honestly go HARD for a Tails spin-off game, using his tails and items to help solve puzzles and fight enemies (think a modernized and more fleshed out version of Tails' Adventure from the Game Gear mixed with some of his gameplay style and elements from both Adventure games among other things)
The biggest problem with his concept of re-design of Sonic is this feels like a indie game with a Sonic skin. If it were a new indie game with a new character, would make sucess. But because is a concept idea for when he thinks the Sonic series should going forward, it feels completely absurd.
It's a great video, with a lot of effort put in, but it's so disjointed with the Sonic fundamentals, that alienate the idea of what Sonic is.
Also, with a video he released later of "Dear SEGA", call "Back Pockets: Sonic & The Target Audience", he admitted that he lapsed interest with Sonic at some point at his life, and lost touch with the series. That would explain why the re-design feels off. Because he only focus on some basic parts of the games, and the rest was based in he believe people would like to play, not based on the series' fundamentals (Design, gameplay, and narrative), and why people like this series.
And for Jared, I hope that he continue making a lot of sucess on his life.
"I'm pretty sure this is just how Australians would say Sega." ngl i thought you were Australian until fairly recently lmaooo 😭💀
I can tell you're American (don't worry I am too lmao, we're all stupid)
The hate is understandable because the video literally felt tone deaf
Exactly which is why I believe that he doesn't understand what Sonic even is hell I barely believe that he actually played the games yeah he said he did but I really don't think so after seeing this video show the game could have been good with a different IP but not as Sonic game you know?
That's how I feel for a bit of it. Sure, it's not as tone deaf as that trailer for a new Commander Keen game that got cancelled & looked like a cheap, no effort TV Flash cartoon, but still.
The new reboot of Sonic the hedgehog lookin alot like sunky without the muzzle and gloves
Ok...i know the sonic Fandom went kinda overboard with this video but...i can see why people back then hated this pitch reboot it kinda destroys what sonic is about and just reducing and didn't exactly understood sonic's appeal in the first place so that's this video got tons if blacklash..
Also for this one 28:26 for movie sonic and based on his backstory it makes sense.. because he was completely in a new and strange world and knew nothing about it ofc he was so unsure and looked vulnerable so it makes sense for movie sonic but for game sonic? No...this would just diminish the character's core entirely! Considering how strong he is in terms of power level too... dealing and killing dangerous vilains and monsters and literal dimensional gods at multiversal level such as time eater,solaris, erazor djinn,dark queen (from black knight), the end and the titans recently etc what made his character so cool in the beginning so reducing that and completely make him look weak and vulnerable defeats the purpose of what sonic is about it takes away that edge that coolness away from him and that cockiness etc...same thing Can be said for his Comic counter part Archie sonic(which we all know his deal and how op he is ☠️☠️ like seriously this man literally reset his entire multiverse... that's insane!).
I'm actually going to try and make a Sonic Fangame based on Javid's idea for fun.
And to see how much Sonic Fans will hate it to hell and back.
... Please don't pour precious time and energy into a project you intend to pool hate.
That being said, if you think there is merit in Javid's idea... I say go for it.
@@jettvalen7326 I'm not trying to pool hate, I'm trying to see how Javid's idea would go if executed well. But I'm probably not going to get into it since I have 4 other things to do. 😅
Hey, I mean...why not?
Aged like milk, being in 2024-2025, this video makes me feel...WEIRD
What type of WEIRD?
the idea of the pitch always seemed to be an oxymoron by itself, pointing out sonic's flaws (specially boom's) while double downing what boom was doing while being much more 'generically indie' about it.
the idea itself is cool, however its not sonic and its simply its own thing, not even an artstyle change would fix it as its still not sonic.
it also doesnt help that all the 'criticisms' that the era had is silently shown in the pitch itself: no story, no friends, keep it 2d, no talking, oversimplify it; and yet what they kept preaching about ended up being this and sonic 4, which both are not good things for sonic to have
it’s kinda weird how little he actually understands the appeal of sonic for someone trying to pitch a new 2D sonic game,the personality is the appeal, sonic has more depth than people give him credit for, sonic was made to be cool but he was also meant to be kinda punk by design, he’s a very specific brand of cool
Another thing I really fucking dislike about the og video is the vibe of "haha adults don't want to play BABY GAMES for BABIES." Like...Bro doesn't even have the hindsight excuse for that one the Wii was massive with people of EVERY age.
I like how his design is basically sonic mixed with snick the porcupine
One reboot that I am particularly a fan of is Mark Flynn's "Sonic the Hedgehog Reboot Concept" and the followup video. I want to say that it's more or less what this concept was trying to achieve with more understanding of (classic) sonic's appeal. it genuinely just feels like what if classic sonic was made today while keeping everything that made people love classic sonic. and based on the like and dislike ratio i imagine it's generally well liked
of course its still alienating to post classic fans but you know, the direction of these is so different that sega at this point treats them as two separate continuities
I saw that guy's video, but even he seems to have this toxic mindset that "if we get rid of Sonic's stupid friends and call the bad guy Robotnik instead of Eggman then everything will be a million billion squillion kajillion times betterer!"
I just don't agree with this "get rid of it" mindset when it comes to Sonic.
Storytelling? "GET RID OF IT!"
World building? "GET RID OF IT!"
A varied and fun cast of characters who fans love and want to see being better utilised and treated with some dignity again? "GET RID OF 'EM! NOTHING GOOD ABOUT 'EM WHATSOEVER! YOU CAN'T HAVE 'EM COS I DON'T LIKE 'EM!"
It's ridiculous! It's like, what are you left with if these whiners got their way?
@@bowmaj8666they still call him Robonik by his name too in the movie so that ain't gone, and Sonic's so called stupid friends were never a problem. I love these characters and the pitch ain't all bad, there's a few good ideas. But getting rid of what made the series great comes off more biased than actually improving it. But that's not his job, it's just an idea after all. We all could make our own videos of concepts we have as well and it's really meant to be fun and let us understand each other better
@@bowmaj8666 I could have sworn I ones wrote a super sized comment going over all of my issues with his idea on one of his videos but it doesn't seem to exist anymore.
But yes just about every aspect of his pitch is wanting to twist the franchise to his specific nostalgic wants.
@@rynobehnke8289 Seems about right. I once left a comment on, I think it was his second video on that topic, asking him why he seemed so determined to make sure that Sonic's friends straight up couldn't be in his reboot, and he didn't give me an answer. He just kind of shrugged off my criticisms.
On paper, I wouldn't mind seeing a Sonic with water colors and that colored texture, (actually could've been something like a Lilo & Stitch style Sonic world. Which would've been so unique yet appealing.) But the execution of the design and changing him for the sake of changing it feels like a misfire. It's TOO different.
Personally i think a cel shaded artystyle akin to jet set radio would fit sonic greatly
@@jskywalker58 Ooh! That would actually be really cool. That Y2K aesthetic fits Sonic. Especially in that Adventures-Heroes era. Also, Idk, but I would love to see a Treasure Planet style Sonic as well. Like imagine Dr Eggman looking something like John Silver with that cyborg arm? That’d be so badass.
The problem is that he changed sonic so much it wasn’t sonic anymore. That was why sonic fans had a big problem with it.
Sonic doesn't really need a reboot, most IPs don't- but it could always use AUs or alternate takes on the Sonic formula the same way Transformers and TMNT IPs do. You can much more easily build off of the passion the audience has through a "what if" approach and do your own take on it- than you can sell the idea of a "new definitive version" that's somehow supposed to "replace" what they already love for a multitude of various reasons not all shared by the audience (especially if your "reboot" fails to capture the initial appeal of the predecessor, since that just divides new and old fandoms). Thus why I feel, Sonic Fans don't want someone to tell them what Sonic is supposed to be, but they do have a lot of passion to see an artist/storyteller show what they love about Sonic showcased as a "what if"- through the talent and vision of someone who shares their passion for the IP.
The idea to add purchasable/consumable power ups for example, instead of having a level design and checkpoint system that revolves around speed running to utilize said power ups for the sake of exploration/completion seems kinda wild to me. What would be the narrative reason for Sonic to pull out CRTVs with power ups inside out of his back pocket in exchange for rings? Is that more satisfying than running around a landscape covered in palm trees and synthwave aesthetic elements that Sonic's original game aesthetic and music are rooted in? I think not. His overall level design approach feels boring by comparison to the original, with the exception of adding some player choice. To me, Sonic should feel more like a brightly colored 80's-90's nostalgia oasis of freedom and chill living paradise, contrasted by the industrialized and dystopian cyberpunk like future of Dr. Eggman and his technology either coercively or greedily invading the lives of Mobians caught in the middle. It's a tale of human vs nature, but it's also all about nostalgia for people at this point and leaning more into neon graffiti & hiphop/funk vibes in urbanized concrete jungles, or casual fun resort getaway scenery such as palm tree lined beaches with giant sunflowers and summer fun vibes and synthwave electronic beats, with a rock and roll protagonist that gets in the middle to kick it up a notch to save what he loves, but we all know aside from having fun and loving being a hero, he would rather just relax. The challenge for Sonic games is balancing exploration with the sense of high octane speed. It's hard to do both, as for one you want the player to slow down and take it in, and with the other you want them to feel like they are mastering the levels to such an extent that they literally blur by everything. Pizza Tower may be an example of a good balance of the two, and games like that may be good examples for what Sonic Team could look to, as I don't know how much I want to see resource management in a game like Sonic unless it's tied to payoffs for movement/mastery, and then it should be, like you said in your video response, optional but effective.
My biggest issue with Javed's reboot design is that it is devoid of all of the aesthetic and style appeal of the IP that fans already love. His idea feels more like a spiritual successor devoid of the things I love about Sonic than it is a reboot, and that's a problem. Don't label it a remake, don't label it a reboot, just say "this is my take" and pitch it as that, it's way easier for fans to swallow and doesn't threaten to "replace" what they love, instead you simply add onto it with an example of what could be.
I honestly would like to see a cell shaded sonic game.
If Sega had done what he suggested with this redesign, it would have aged like milk. That Adventure Time aesthetic isn't popular now. IMO, that's a good thing because I never liked that aesthetic, but that's not even the point.
I feel like they just made it feel like an average indie game. I don't hate it though, I just disagree with it tbh
The pitch itself wasn't bad, maybe even would have lead to good games.
But it operates on the faulty idea that a lot of 2010's people reviewers and fans included subscribed to, that the issues plaguing Sonic, is everything that makes it good.
At that point it's no longer Sonic. Just make a new platformer.
I don’t know if it’s intentional or not but I like that in the remade sonic run animation. He his holding his back pack straps in the same arm formation that he that he uses in the classic games.
11:22 Yeah people DID NOT get with unleashed sonic fans and journalists alike. Which is upsetting because Sonic Unleashed is still imo a fantastic game and deserves way more than what it got. Thankfully people started to realise that a while ago
1:17 it’s sad how true this is
I can’t believe we have a real sonic cycle now
no its not
@@reggielacey2235no it is
@@reggielacey2235unfortunately it's true, people with a huge following on Twitter are the main culprits as they send the video to hundreds of their followers to attack that one person
I think the biggest problem with this video is that the data collected and presented has almost zero application to the actual redesign of the franchise. Like you pointed out, he says most fans want the original games, but he doesn't cater to them in the slightest. It really does feel like it caters more to the reviewers who make it a living to dunk on the franchise, moreso than what fans might actually want. Because yes, appealing to the ign reviewer who said he'd rather die than listen to more sonic music is the exact audience we should target.
His pitch does sound like a cool game, even a cool Sonic game, but I absolutely would not want this to be the future of Sonic
Javed's Sonic feels less like the "perfected" reboot with the most appeal, and more like if Sonic was first made in the modern year rather than 1991. I'm not opposed to something like it existing, but I feel like applying Sonic to this feels more less like "honing in on what works" and more like "removing anything controversial". I don't think he deserves being attacked so much for his pitch, but videos like these are always why I try to present my ideas as subjective rather than calling myself right or trying to speak on behalf of an audience.
And like I said in some of your pitch videos, I'm also just tired of discussing what Sonic NEEDS to be. Sonic may flip flop between gameplay, aesthetic, and tone, but to me, execution is more important than concept. I'd be more than happy with Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic Lost World, Sonic Forces, and Rise of Lyric being part of the same franchise if they were all great games. People may have latched onto Sonic in the 90s for his rebellious style, but he earned his longterm appeal by providing consistently good experiences which all brought something new to the table.
45:36 tbh i see why, i can see a game like this kinda flopping, and even the design and idle animation reflects it, sonic does not look iconic at all he looks like a character that could be bullied to death, he looks sad and unprepared, if u just look at sonic (modern) he doesent give of that vibe of scared/unprepared its more a charm or cocky ness he has, and also he just looks cool
I think the guy tried. But after a decade of Sega already playing it 'safe' with the 2010's, this guy's telling them to lose the ambitious will to experiment, which will make the series stagnate.
For better or worse, Sonic has done a lot, from running around a checkered pattern island saving little creatures, to out running the military, to fighting Genies and Legendary Kings in Books and so on. On the surface I wouldn't change it. Sonic Team just needs to nail a consistent gameplay style and cut down the over reliance of automated events or puzzles that insults the player, stop being ashamed of Characters that aren't Sonic and when applicable have a Story that does the characters justice.
Reboots betray fans into not wanting to buy it cause its not what or why they like it, also sonic doesnt need a reboot with how much world building it got, 2010s sonic was lowest of lowest but at least hes back and a reboot would just hurt everyone the company sega and the fans bro this video probably caused sonic boom to be made
I can understand why people were so upset. This guy pretty much said, "Let's strip Sonic of all his personality other than he's the good guy." Plus, I feel that the problems with previous Sonic games is not its world and characters, but strange design choices, Sega rushing the devs to complete the game before perfecting it, and certain stories needing a little more time in the writing department to bring out their true potential.
Probably wouldn't have started on TH-cam if not for that original reboot video by goodblood. Didn't agree with much of it but found it proper inspiring!
Your Sonic Spirit Video is Really Good. I will say an idea I had for your video was including the 2 Act Aspect but have Act 1 be the Music Level Style from Rayman Legends and Act 2 be the Slower Level... Up Until The Boss Fight which is again a High Speed Setpiece. So essentially 70-75% of the Game is High Speed Action and the other 30-25% is Slower Platforming.
I love your videos on Sonic. Your videos on the various sonic designs were particularly great
It definitely seems like people went too far when throwing hate at this guy but I can still understand how they say the video’s bad (they just could’ve toned it down), I mean I don’t think I’ve ever heard a more serious misunderstanding of Sonic at least in a long time, prime example being when describing his face. Sonic. The freaking. Hedgehog. A BLANK CANVAS?!
I remember this one, i thought he had insteresting ideas, for anything NOT Sonic 😅, but even tho I thought what he was cooking was pretty weird, he should not have gotten all the flake he got.
Nah he deserves it. He was presenting himself as an expert on what Sonic should be when all he cared about were the Genesis games from the 90s and then pitched a ripoff of Ori and the Blind Forest
@@maroonkennedy6213 I honestly don't remember this part (I believe you it's just that my memory is terrible), but didn't he like, nuke his channel because of the reaction?
he does not understand that sonic is supposed to be cool
Super intresting to look back at this years later
Unfortunately this is just another game character, not really SONIC.
The beginning part about some Sonic fans is so true. How they go to such extreme lengths to "protect" Sonic from valid, constructive, and well intented criticism. But what's even worse is that it's a thing in almost any fanbase, especially ones decades old. People have grown up with what ever they like, and often times get offended when people say anything bad about it. While this is understandable, it doesn't excuse what some do about it. All those stories you've heard of about a fan from a certain series doing this or that (loud house, mlp, undertale, and Sonic of course are good examples), this is why.
sadly true..
i actually kinda liked this at the time, aside from the design that i thought was a bit odd this didnt seem so bad
I think this vision for the character fundamentally misunderstood why people enjoy Sonic to begin with. People weren't responding to the current formula because the games at that time weren't using it properly.
So I think taking away what makes Sonic appealing character and gameplay wise is extremely flawed. I don't play Sonic games to play an indie platformer like Ori and the Blind Forrest. I play Sonic game to feel like a speedy badass. What makes me like Sonic more than Mario is the identity and personality that Sonic has.
I'm sure this got a lot of undeserved hate from the typical crazy fans, but I can also say, with respect for his own opinions and admiration for the visials he clearly worked hard on, I just think this pitch is really bad, misrepresents the series, the fans, the marketing for different games, the bery games it talks about and critiques and most importantly for making any pitch: it contradicts itself nearly constantly, making it very puzzling to follow... (Reboot to appeal the fans who are invested in the lore! That always works!)
So I think the idea definitely deserved being discussed and critiqued, without hate, without threats of course, but I don't think it was fear over the possibility of Sonic going that way, I think it really was just a pitch that never would have been popular with Sonic fans overall despite having some interesting ideas, presented in a very questionable, albeit profesional and visually polished way...
Again, I'm sure the creator got a lot of undeserved hate for a video he did out of love for gaming and Sonic specifically, but I believe you absolutely can respect him and his work while also disagreeing and finding issues in the points he presents such as SEGA's target demographic, 3D not ever working for Sonic, or Generations' popularity being attributed to Classic Sonic, etc, being presented as near factual points with very flimsy evidence... I'm glad he's doing well for himself and that this video being taken down didn't end his entire career or anything dramatic like that though, I wish terminally online Sonic fans could be a little more considerate even when disagreeing with someone and bring up valid counterarguments without attempting to mock the other person.
I also definitely think this video wouldn't have been so deeply hated if it weren't for the fact that Sonic Boom really tanked the franchise's reputation after Lost World also being quite underwhelming, it really was a problematic time for the series and pitching a reboot right after an official reboot, well I don't want to call it poking the bear, I am well aware this was made for fun and with lots of passion for the IP, but I also really can't blame Sonic fans (those in their right minds) for not being thrilled at the ideas presented here...
Rewatching the video and the suggestions made in it, i realized smth. He talked abt heavier puzzle solving, more vulnerable character design, and it really clicked with me that a character in the series already has these qualities naturally: Tails. He naturally fits the bill way more, and you wouldn't have to sacrifice what is probably one of the most appealing character designs of all time for it. You also have less problems with the drastic change in gameplay since it's a spinoff
That's a super clever take.
There would also be Amy which had puzzle solving in her SA1 gameplay, just about all moves he suggested by Advance 3 in 2d and was during the early 2000's clearly designed as a more vulnerable character.
25:17
Sonic is their WHAT?
NOOO I fucking died on the spot when I heard that. I could not believe what I was hearing or reading in the captions bro 😭😭
This vid brought nostalgia for me. I was there when the vid was freshly uploaded.
Now let's see if this beats MovieBob's mobian genocide fantasy reboot
WHAT
isn’t that just what ken penders already f**king did?
It might also be bc it sounds like they dont appreciate what we have now and make it seem like a problem. 3d sonic has so much amazing potential and should keep being explored
I feel like this video was just poorly timed as well. Not only was this around the time of Sonic Boom, there was a Sonic Drought for a while. Then you have a well meaning guy come along to say "yeah Sonic isnt great right now. You know what would be good? A complete reboot that doesnt capture what makes Sonic Sonic and make into a generic Indie Title." In a vaccum makes you double take like what? How is this any better? Obviously it didnt deserve severe hate but it was intresting yet very misguided. Genuinely wouldve been better as an original IP.
As a man who is learning English a little, I was scared by your reaction to the pronunciation of the word "Sega". I hope I don't die speaking in my Slavic accent to anyone for the first time.
Nah I wouldn't make fun of someone's pronunciation. The world's a big place.
Besides I have a lot of respect for people who can learn other languages. I've tried and it's very difficult.
@@ChannelPup Sorry, I probably didn't realize it was a joke.
It's fine to mispronounce things from time to time; it's a natural process of human learning. Personally speaking, I only had a problem with the fact that Javid called SEGA "SEE-GAH", because he was making the video directly addressing SEGA themselves!
SEGA is an amalgamation of the title "Service Games", so naturally it's pronounced "SEH-GAH". The issue doesn't arise in the common dialect, the issue arises in the fact that Javid is falsely addressing the company, which can come across as disrespectful...
@@jettvalen7326 Thank you for explanation. Your comment got me thinking about this in a new way :)
I remember seeing this video when I was a kid. I hated the redesign of sonic but I liked some of the other ideas. but I never knew the video got so much hate
Me too.
An extrenely pretentious guy who only played the Genesis games is posturing himself as an expert on Sonix when all he did was make an Ori ripoff. The hate was deserved.
"Sonic could still compete with Mario. Why shouldn't he?"
Because the International Olympic Committee wants to focus on NFTs. Oh sorry, what were we talking about?
If sega could be trusted to actually understand what the appeal of sonic is, youtube essays wouldn't get so much heat
Personally dont hate the pitch that this guy did i just think he could've looked more into the source material
Didn’t know people hated the video. I didn’t like the idea but I didn’t care since it wasn’t official.
That Sonic Boom ad he showed felt surprisingly like the Sonic movies that have come out in the years since.
I prefer .boom. Over
This
Imagine this with the polish of Ori and the blind forest.
As a sonic fan Ik I’m garbage but at least I’m not putting mfrs down on the internet cuz they think differently
Yeah I'd be pissed too if somebody tried to turn Sonic The Hedgehog into an indie Unity game lol