It was more like 400-500x but yeah Gohan always had huge rage amps,but saying Super didn’t break power scaling is dumb,Golden Frieza got not 400 not 4000 not 400000 but literally infinitely stronger in 4 months lmao,if that makes sense to you then you just slow.
@@mvp746 Power scaling is simply telling us Freeza got exponentially more powerful in 4 months, the reason or quality behind it isn't the fault of power scaling. And in DBZ there's stupid things like Kid Buu being the strongest form of Buu meaning he's stronger than Buuhan, and yet Goku is able to take him on rather well alone. And the only reason you can get for that is that he got buffed after de-fusing as Vegito. Ooh, there's also Goku going from 180,000 with Kaioken to 3 mil in base from simply healing.
There's also how Dr. Gero somehow made Androids that far surpass Frieza and Super Saiyans despite Earth having much less advanced technology than the Frieza force, or how in a single day Goku jumped from a power level of 90k to 150 million DBS didn't introduce anything that Z didn't already do. Just continuing what Z started
My biggest problem with the powercliffing is the Goku Black Arc. We start the arc with Base Black ~ SSJ2 Goku, and then out of nowhere he’s slapping Blue Vegeta. But then after that he gains Rosé which is his own variation of Blue, and yet later Black Arc Blue Vegeta beats his ass. This means Base Vegeta from later in the Black Arc beats his Blue self from earlier in the same arc, which is absurd
I think the reason this does make sense is because Goku black got a massive Zenkai bigger than one he would get from trunks after Fighting Goku who is a way better fighter than trunks in power and skill, so Goku black would get a stronger Zenkai as a result because he was clutching his chest because of how strong Goku was And as for ssjr in the anime, because we never saw black use regular ssj this could means that his ssjr form (in the anime) has the same multiplier as a super Saiyan (while the manga version it is based of the multiplier for ssjb with ssj shown to be a separate form.) since the arc is so different in the manga and anime this could be possible This makes sense because Zamasu kept his god ki in Goku's body with Goku even Comparing his chi when he is still a Kai to Zamasu in Goku's mortal body. so in the anime he probably just doesn't toggle his god ki on and off like Goku and instead just tapped into the full potential of a "super Saiyan god" making Vegeta power growth after spending his time in the time chamber make sense. Do you agree? 🤔
@ I think Goku Black’s growth is consistent to a degree, sure. As far as the SSJR amp goes though I can’t really say for the anime as I haven’t watched it in a hot minute but if it was something more akin to a super saiyan amp it would make more sense. In the manga though it’s still a pretty massive cliff (although not nearly to the degree of the anime if Rosé is still a blue level amp); not the biggest fan of the arc regardless but your arguments do make sense
This view doesn't make sense, and I'll try to explain why. You have to understand that the DBS writers are idiots when it comes to power scaling, so you need to follow some rules of thumb. One of them is Goku and Vegeta are always on par, unless the opposite is stated clearly. Why am I saying this? Well, in the same episode where base Black stomps Blue Vegeta, Blue Goku fights Rosè Black. At no point in Dragon Ball Z Goku was 50 times stronger than Vegeta, and in Super, a show where Goku and Vegeta are basically the two main characters (you could argue the only characters for most of it), it would be ridicolus to think they're so far apart. But even without following this intuition, in the Potaufeu saga Goku and Vegeta were shown to be on par, and in the 2nd future voyage they're again shown to be on par. So in this case you just have to say that the base Black - Blue Vegeta fight was incoherent with what was shown before and after, and as such it's not relevant to the overall scaling. You can even invent an in-universe explanation, for example "Vegeta was holding back", but it might as well be bad writing because they Super writers at just very bad power scalers
Dragon Ball power escalation was always ridiculous. But Super multiplies it by 50 times. Like, back in the day they at leat tried to cover it up with training, potential unlocks, rage boosts and whatever. Now character A just sleeps for one hour and wakes up with the power to sneeze away fiction and now Goku and Vegeta how to train for 50 billion years just to stand near him. But its just unfair to criticise super for it and turning blind eye on Z, it was always a problem, just like you explained. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@@senseiwu7814 brother he is nothing bit constantly changing pedastool for goku and vegeta to reach. All they have to tell is beerus started to train to ensure these saiyans dont come close to him. But nope he was always that strong even though multiple times goku and vegeta had surpassed him.
@@RaginDragn24 Vegito Blue was stated to be rivaling Beerus. But then Goku surpassed him in the TOP and still gets onesot by beerus. Jiren was stated to rival Belmod, his universes G.O.D. And Belmod was shown to be stronger than the average G.O.D in the G.O.D exhibition match. Goku then surpassed Jiren multiple times over and casually oneshots him now. AND STILL Beerus claims that Goku and Vegeta are MILLIONS OF YEARS OF TRAINING away from him 😭 Beerus makes no sense lol
@SwmLee he literally wouldn't though and this why it's so dumb cause yall don't take into account krillin has NO ATTACK on the level of a Spirit bomb that would even kill any form of buu let alone buuhan, you think a destructo disk is doing the trick? Like cmon now
@@SwmLee nothing you said in there answers my question, how does krillin despite how strong you think he is kills buu? All buu need to do is blow up the planet and krillin still dies while buu will regen
i fully agree , People don't understand that once you have a goal to train for(example: you have a power level of 20 and want to reach someone who has a power level of 200) then you will reach that goal easily , even the likes of Yamcha could reach beyond anything shown in OG Dragon Ball by the first arc of Z simply because he had a goal , W video.
Na fam i watched master ROSHI weave JIREN'S punches like they were nothing while ultra instinct goku was getting stomped ... The power creep in super is ridiculous
People just too blinded by nostalgia to criticize the old shows and to critical of new things in general as a whole nowadays Gohan being stronger than Raditz is crazy Krilling being stronger than every saiyan in namek arc is crazy Gero making androids stronger than frieza is crazyyyyyy Goten being strong enough to destroy the planet at 7 is crazy
Gero got to be the craziest one, because you’re telling me that no one else in the universe was as smart as Gero and could make their own androids to woop frieza?
@@trolly6451Dr gero is the only one in the universe to have drones watching the battles that take place on earth and study them including frieza and trunks n had 3 years to add that data. Sooo no it’s not crazy. Krillen is fighting along side goku and vegeta and gohan THE STRONGEST SAYIANS and keeping up why wouldn’t he also be able to wipe planet vegeta ?
Your exceptionally clever when it comes to the power scaling of DBZ. I’m a Power Scaling Buff myself. DBS is a bit confusing cuz it has a few unknown concept to most fans. That coupled with unnecessary hate from select fans who find anything & everything wrong wit Super. Phenomenal Video God. You did Exceptional!!! Just subscribed notifications bell on!!!
Fr bruh it wouldn't make sense if buu saga vegito was stronger then bog goku because goku himself said fusion wouldn't work but when he got ssjg he was able to fight him well
It's still vastly more extreme. Just because it happened earlier doesn't mean it's better now. And as some already pointed out the explanations back then were usually more elaborated (even if they make no logical sense). Ever since the U6 tournament the power escalation happens without any kind of attempt on logic.
I think with Dragon Ball characters probably have a sort of multiplier where the stronger you get, the more and more your strength’s potential to accelerate get bigger, but the more potential you have to lose your strength gets bigger. It’s easier to go from God to Blue than Kaio-Ken to Super Sayain, but not training consistently as a SSB will make you as weak as Kid Buu. Does that make sense? It’s easy for characters to get crazy powerful if they’re above that Super Sayain 2 threshold in terms of power growth. This is pretty evident with Goku, Gohan, Android 17, Freeza… pretty much with a bit of potential and being at a certain range they can catch up. The issue isn’t crazy potential, it’s inconsistency. Android 17 catching up is great but there are A LOT of issues with that that need explaining
You're right most of the characters such as humans have been training for years so it makes sense why they would be above characters such as cell kid buu and namek frieza. Just thinking about it this way dbz villains are like gifted children and krillin and other humans are like hard working students, they both can achieve great power in the future but one group doesn't train at all and are gifted from birth with massive potential [ frieza, cell, buu ] that they don't use compared to other characters in the series, but when they got defeated or surpassed by the hard working characters like goku or vegeta they return they take stuff seriously and train for some time and suddently beat everyone who has been training hard for few years.
🙏🏻 finally someone that actually understands db inverse scaling I found you thanks to Tony skeptical and I have to said that as things are now I love your contents Keep it up man 💪
Super hero arc krillin = super hero arc 18 > moro arc 18 = moro arc 17 > ToP arc 17 = ToP arc blue. And this is not so crazy cuz even moro arc base form piccolo > ToP blue. Before the 2 months time skip, 73 enhanced his body absorbing ultimate gohan's kamehameha in ch. 54, but in ch. 56 base form piccolo destroyed half of 73 body. In super hero arc every base warrior scaled to a base piccolo who was far above ToP ultimate gohan (base goku/vegeta/gohan/goten/trunks, 18, krillin..)
If they think super broke the scaling wait until they realize that Goku during the ginyu fight was 60k in base, and after his zenkai boost he jumped to 3 million (150 million as a super Saiyan, 150m/50 = 3 million) somehow 😭 he somehow got 2.94 million battlepower from the ginyu fight
They just climb higher and higher gaps, the thing is it's always been like this in dragon ball where when they're training to reach new heights they get there. In Saiyan Saga the humans go from below 23rd WT Piccolo and Goku to above raditz. Android Saga arguably every Z fighter is close to or vastly above mecha frieza. In the dbz anime Yamcha is arguably super perfect cell level by the end of the kid buu arc. The issue is they reach these new heights too fast and without much leading to it. ROF everyone is below buu saga gohan level to in less than a year of doing some training is on the level of a super saiyan god. Piccolo reaching this height even faster with his special beam cannon alone in the universe 6 arc, and gohan with light training can rival base goku in their sparring match. This same Goku who spent another 3 years in the hyberbolic time chamber training with vegeta. It's quite frankly insane how they break these limits despite not much happening to cause it.
Kid Buu > Buuhan tells me that SSJ3 Goku could box with Vegito, so you can see why I disagree with that take. Also, I don't think anyone can justify Trunks killing Zamasu when Blue Vegito couldn't with Final Kamehameha. Or how 17, who seemingly stuck with being a park ranger or anyone training less hard for less time, for some reason get strong enough to contest Goku after a god boost to his base, with Frieza training for 4 months being the biggest example I can mention. It goes beyond statements, like U6 saiyans being that strong, it's the progression we see for ourselves that make no sense with the characters we kept up with all this time. DBS scaling makes me almost believe TOP Krillin could fight merged Zamasu 😂 My main point is to say DBZ is not a saint when it comes to this, but DBS is way worse about it.
That's because it's an anime exclusive issue. In the manga Kid Buu is probably the second weakest version of Buu. Both Buuhan and Super Buu are supposed to be stronger than Kid Buu but the anime decided to contradict that. There's no way a SSJ3 Goku could take on Kid Buu if he lost the source of his power and if the previous version required fusion which is basically A + B * Some number for Potara
@@crestofhonor2349 The whole anime scene part was never to prove Kid Buu was stronger than Buuhan, but just to say there are some arguments available. I don't even believe Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan, but Kid Buu was definitely stronger than regular Super Buu, as it was implied in the manga, which I showed in the video.But there are also a lot of anime-only scenes in the Super anime that aren't in the manga, which people use to discredit it.
I would argue that what you are referring to is power escalation, and that supers biggest issue was power scaling. I dont really ever see an issue with how quickly someone gains strength. Who am i to say a fictional race like the sayians can't grow that quickly? The issue is when you have a guy that can fight on a multiversal level yet gets bruised by a normal gun. While i get that it was more to highlight gokus pretty stagnant state compared to what he needed to be doing since gaining god power, there were definitely better ways of doing it. Or how krillin did against goku. Even if goku wasn't trying, you can't limit krillins power and at the same time have him holding off a ssgss goku. While it wouldve been weird, if they had just made krillin THAT much more powerful, i would've been okay with that. But no, they heavily imply and say that hes COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY out of his league at this point, yet he hilds off a blue goku, even if goku wasnt trying and it wasnt for long. Like either make him powerful enough to scale to goku like that, or just leave him out.
There are reasons why people criticize super but give Z a pass the an extent, 1) when Z was airing most of if not all of it's fans were kids who didn't give a damn about power levels or scaling we just watched the cool fights but with super those fans have grown up and are now thinking a lot harder about what they watch. 2) The internet wasn't anything like it was today so people weren't coming together as much to talk about things like they are now. 3) When Z came out there wasn't much anime and it practically grandfathered the shonen genre, but now there is so much more to watch and the quality and complexity has gone up meanwhile as you've shown super is doing much of what Z did, which was fine in the 90's but it's been almost 30 years since it ended and it's doing much of the same, but with less character building, less stakes and harder to process scale. I guess you could say people are expecting more now then they did 30 years ago.
That's why I always laugh when someone says oh saitama will catch up to goku cause he xan grow exponentially . Like z fighter's are gonna sit around on same lvl.
Yea, I don’t even know why people even say that the saiyans grow stronger during battle more than they do in training. Tournament of Power is the perfect example
I don’t get how Krillin is so strong at all. He’s probably the strongest human and has surpassed the same version of Freiza that boomed him earlier in the series. The Saiyan make sense, Gohan makes sense. Krillin should be people’s biggest complaint for power creep imo
Actually around the Kid Buu Part, it’s crazy when you consider that SS Goku who was nerfed to a 100th of his base power oneshotted a clone of Ultimate Gohan who was stated to be as strong as the original, meaning Base Goku during the fight with Kid Buu should be doing the Same. And this is supported by Gohan literally fearing the Ki of Buuhan and Goku even said Kid Buu was the strongest version of Buu and there’s no reason to exclude Buuhan from that.
Ssj Goku did not defeat Gohan lol, nor did Goku say Kid Buu was the strongerst Buu, both of those things are anime filler lmao. I love the selective memory though, as Goku, after ”defeating Gohan” and freeing his friends, makes a statement to Vegeta that they can’t go outside of Buu even after him reverting, because even base Super Buu is too much for them. And yes, that statement is in the manga too, so canon. Gohan is waay above even ssj3 Goku, and so is Gotenks. That is why they were left out of the final fight so Goku could have the spotlight. It’s so funny to me that grown ass people would think it’s in any way logical story telling that Goku just suddenly magically becomes so much stronger that he is suddenly stronger in ssj1 than he was in ssj3 just moments ago, and that he would be able to fight an ”even stronger” enemy when the ”weaker” opponent needed fusion to have any chance against🤣 it must be some sort of brainrot. Buuhan is *obviously* the strongest form, while Kid Buu is the most dangerous due to his destructive and unpredictable nature. That is what is stated in canon, nothing more.
@@grydon6422 Anime Filler is canon to the Manga aswell, also Gohan is not even close to SS3 Goku’s Level and neither is Gotenks. Mind you in the manga, Piccolo didn’t think SS1 Gotenks held a candle to Fat Buu despite knowing SS3 Goku could win.
@@grydon6422 ALSO, The Daizennshu even said if Goku and Vegeta lost against Kid Buu, no one could hold a Candle to Kid Buu, also implying even if Filler wasn’t canon, SS2 Vegeta >>> Ultimate Gohan.
Some of the scaling issues are anime exclusive. Particularly the ones with Kid Buu and any filler characters like Olibu. None of the filler characters were in the manga so that wasn't a scaling issue. Kid buu on the other hand is pretty clearly stated to be weaker than Super Buu and Buuhan as he lost all of the power of the characters he had absorbed. This is exactly why SSJ3 is all that is needed to face Kid Buu in the manga and why Vegito was needed for Super Buu. Also to correct one misconception that's very annoying to hear. Krillin does not match SSJB Goku. The whole point of that scene was for Goku to test how Krillin would do against who has a power far greater than his own. He does well against base Goku partially because he knows how Goku fights better than anyone. Secondly he does get close in terms of overall power. With SSJ1/2 he is already on the losing side as well and then Blue further makes that gap even wider. Goku is testing him and if people actually watched that entire mini arc with Krillin it was supposed to show how scared he was of fighting against opponents that were potentially much stronger than him. Also GT and parts of the DBZ anime are just as bad with scaling with some of the points I made in regard to the anime
From an objective standpoint, I still think it's pretty sloppy writing for the sake of advancing the stakes as the series goes on (throughout the whole franchise,) but it doesn't really matter to me because it all leads to touching moments and incredible action scenes. It's not the logistics of power-scaling and the like that are barely touched upon in any meaningful way that should decide the overall quality, but the stories that are being told and the art that the creators meticulously put together.
The difference here is we are constantly being told in the anime that Goku and Vegeta have reached their limits and cannot get much stronger. Then u have ppl saying that T.O.P blue Goku one shots blue Goku from black arc. Then Moro blue Goku one shots t.o.p Mui Goku. Then gas arc base Goku one shots Moro arc Goku.
Because they find people who surpassed their “limits” that they thought they were already at and they see they can push it further and now have a new goal I don’t think you people understand dragon ball when you read or watch it. I specifically remember Goku telling a few of the villains this fact that since he has a level goal and level to reach he can do such a thing that’s simple as it gets 😂
@@Simplystimulating replying to me then addressing me as you people. Okay, what you say does not make sense to the context. They can surpass their limits and get new forms but its quite clear in the anime and manga which if you claim you know youd be able to quote in ur next reply that they can no longer get zenkais and increase their physical forms. Vegeta for example shattering his limit and getting blue evovled is not an example one would make to debunk the prior claim.
The only problem I have with the super hero movie was Gohan having a ass pull of a transformation. Before anyone says what about piccolo? His was explained and he's the creator of the db's meaning he gets bonuses like that when wishing.
I think dragon ball characters version of power creep is similar to Saitama in the way that characters potential can increase to an unknown cap based on there level of strength at the time (except saiyan's who are infinite), let's use goku and Gohan as examples goku was born with a low power level because he had a low potential but when he starts training with roshi it's shown he has potential far higher than imaginable, and then in king piccolo saga master korin said if pre ultra divine water Goku would take a few years to match king piccolo's strength but when goku get's that potential of being piccolo's level he trains in that few years korin was talking about and becomes hundreds of times stronger than korin expected goku's potential to be gohan is known for having high potential but in the namek saga we see gohan got his potential unlocked so that should have been his cap but then we see Gohan could still become far stronger when he enters the time chamber and then in buu saga Gohan gets his potential unlocked again it's far beyond a super Saiyan 3 level boost than his namek saga somewhat Vegeta level boost
Pretty good video, the only problem is that it doesn't make a clear distinction between power creep and the general power scaling of the show. While I agree that dbs power creep is fine by z standards, there are blatant moments of inconsistent power scaling that aren't mentioned in dbs. For example, Trunks getting smacked around by base goku black and then going on to fight relatively with rose goku black (pre ssj rage). Also, Beerus' strength, in battle of gods stated to be using 70% of his power against god goku but with this being retconned. There's also Friezas strength as he was able to fight with broly for over an hour (not on par, but still). This ssj broly was taking hits from ssjb goku and vegeta combined, and was throwing around ssj gogeta, yet pre black frieza could fight with him. With these unexplained inconsistencies that are hard to find in z, it's clear why people say super's power scaling is bad
I didn’t even know Frieza or Trunks were also considered in the conversation, or I would’ve gone over them as well. Regarding Goku Black, he never fought Trunks seriously until Trunks achieved his rage form; Goku Black loves dragging fights out to discover more of his potential. As for Broly vs. Frieza, it wasn’t a fight but rather one-sided. We already know how durable Frieza is from Z, where he survived a planet explosion while being cut in half and having only a portion of his body left. He is also relative to Goku and Vegeta in their SSB forms in the Tournament of Power, so it’s not too far-fetched to say he got stronger post-TOP, just like Goku and Vegeta, or also grew from the Broly fight. Additionally, Broly didn’t start throwing around SSJ Gogeta until he went full power Super Saiyan, which Frieza didn’t face.
frieza does get stronger quicker than goku and vegeta. wich is why he is usually slightly stronger hwne they havent fought. like when he was strong enough to resist hakai but goku wasnt. but yeah also beerus kinda lied to give goku hope.
@SwmLee those are some good points I hadn't thought about with regards to the frieza /black fight . There's also another elephant in the room which people don't talk about, piccolo vs frost, where ssj goku in u6 tournament (which is relative /equal to God goku in battle of gods) fought on par with Frost, with Piccolo also doing so to a lesser extent. Despite being on the back foot, he still fought with a god goku level character, with no reasonable explanation explaining this jump. There's also blue goku vs krillin which I'm surprised you didn't bring up (I don't think its an example of bad power scaling but still).I think the main problem of dbs power scaling is God ki. How other characters were able to get to the level of battle of Gods goku extremely quickly. The level of "God" let's say seemed to be a barrier unbreakable without divine intervention (e.g training from whis/dragon balls) Yet, characters like piccolo/krillin/master roshi got to that level quickly, with much less training, leading to questions like why goku didn't get to God level during his training with king Kai post z. But overall, I do agree with most of your points, I don't think dbs power scaling is awful, with a bit more explanation it could work.
@@supersonicdj1631 he also says some stuff himself like when he supposedly uses full power. the reason he lied about his power is the same reason he lied that monacca is the strongest in the universe. it was to motivate goku to get stronger
I think you're underselling how weird some power jumps are in Super. Crazy power jumps in Z were still half-justified, with either Zenkais or months long trainings. In Super characters like Krillin, 18 and Gohan get random power boosts in little time just to stay on par. And even characters with better justifications like Frieza or Roshi still make bigger and less realistic jumps than characters in Z. But this is not even the main problem with Super scaling, imo. The main thing with Super scaling is that it's very incoherent. If you watch the show attentively you WILL notice the writers don't have the slightest idea of what they're doing. For example, they clearly fucked up deciding to make Goku absorb God in base, and from the Champa saga onwards they seemed to walk that decision back. You see Frost fighting with Piccolo, base Goku and Vegeta still staying in tier with base Future Trunks, base Goku fighting with Bergamo, whose brother is Good Buu tier. Stuff like that makes you think they just walked back the God absorbing thing. But then you look back to Copy Vegeta VS Gotenks SSj3 and you go fucking insane. Have they walked the decision back, or not? They have no idea of what they're doing. Another thing that infuriates me is that A LOT of times power ups mid fight only feel like they serve to give dopamine to viewers, and after the power up scene is ended, the fight continues THE SAME as before. This makes power scaling also more complicated and incoherent. Why is SSjB KK10 Goku fighting Hit with not that much ease than SSjB Goku, considering it is stated multiple times Hit doesn't get stronger when he ups his timeskip? Why does Goku Black powers up like 3 times against SSj2 Goku and performs the exact same? Why does Merged Zamasu get glazed the fuck out and is then rivaled by some motivated Saiyans? Why does Gohan become SSj against Lavenda and perform the same? Why do Saiyans become SSj against the three wolves in ep 98 and perform just barely better? There are probably a lot of other weird things I could call out but I just wanted to explain my true gripes with Super's scaling lol
Super's scaling is not that crazy actually, it's the people who make it crazy. The main issue is that base goku and vegeta are grossly overrated, which means everyone who's remotely close to them is too, indirectly
Future trunks cut Fused Zamasu In half when moments prior VEGITO F*CKING BLUE was boxing him 😭 And Roshi after not training since OG dragon ball can oneshot BOG SSJG GOKU 💀
I don’t know who said it but someone said they ready these levels without training? Untrue in the manga they show all their training but in the anime ofc they can’t but they still show them train to get SSG Blue so whatever I guess people watch this shit with their eyes closed?! Gokū black become overpowered because his only limit was base form Goku no one was more powerful than that he only reached normal SSJ but the first time he’s shown a god form SSG or SSG blue he learns the form too. They just learn faster and copy moved better than normal humans they’re aliens and most of these people aren’t human they evolve, adapt etc they’re the Usain Bolts of athletics, they’d have fucking hundreds of gold medals if they were athletes
So to me the power scaling isn’t as awful as some of these people think it is or write it Goku and Vegetta seem to always push their limit when they fight a more powerful opponent and that’s because they train to do that. Their body’s are powerful enough to handle these new modes they “magically” unlock without any training. No they train. They’re at the peak condition of their races they can easily transfer into new forms if their body’s can handle it which they train so this is a possibility at all times
Really the only reason i think Z is better with power scaling is because of they way they atleast try to make it make sense like in dbz the excuse is "they trained hard", in dbs they usually don't even try
No DBS power scaling is far more absurd than in Z and makes no sense. Krillin & Roshi got decillions of times stronger somehow while retired. That is more than the entirety of OG & Z's growth combined.
"Dragon ball super's power scaling isn't bad unless you believe DBZ's power scaling is bad." It kinda is tho. Like it goes hard but that specific element of the show is bad, and super/GT only exacerbated it to a point it's kind of a joke lol
Super’s power scaling isn’t that bad I think it’s a natural progression from z theu already beat the terror of the universe Buu so the only thing left is god and divinity
Dragonball z happens by= years of training to powercliff your old supersaiyan forms Dragonball super happens by=. Goku gets billions of times stronger byfighting for 48 minutes
Tien doing more damage to Semi-Perfect than people probably over a Super Saiyan difference stronger than him. Goku getting so absurdly stronger from pre to post Vegito fusion. Otherworld Tournament is also got this is spades. Pikon casually knocks the shit out of Cell with a single kick, demolishing all his ambitions in that one blow. Yet Goku, through the course of one tournament is able to reach that level of power in base.
Yep and moro arc 18 became so strong she was equal to moro arc 17. This puts both super hero arc 18 and krillin around moro arc android 17/ToP arc blue.
you spitting fax. But i've been exposed to the toxicity of instagram reels for too long so why do you sound like mike tyson 💀 0:56 dis is goku power levelh You good dawg you sound like you bouta cry in the beginning of the video.
Lmao how do you actually reach the conclusion that kid buu is even close to super buu or buuhan ? Have you seen how easily black buu defeated fat buu ? Kid buu is black buu level at best .
@@commentstealer4460 did you not see the manga statement I placed? At the very least and most likely he is above super buu. I never actually stated he was above buuhan though just said there are arguments
You were spitting and then you began doing some stupid stuff with Kid Buu. If Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu doesnt that mean Kid Buu is stronger than Vegito?? Are you telling me Goku and Vegeta power crept all the way to being stronger than their fusion? Please just stop with this dumb logic. Super Buu> Kid Buu
Z and Super are absolutely uncomparable in terms of consistent power scaling,in Z the very few and far in between nonsensical jumps are almost always from Gohan and even that is consistent from the day he is introduced,that and the Kid Buu & Goku shenanigans,otherwise Z is highly consistent,Super’ scaling literally does not make any sort of sense,Frieza,Black Goku somewhat,Rage Trunks,Android 17,Cabba,Caulifla & Kale,Gohan and a few others make absolute 0 sense to be anywhere near the level they were at when they were shown or currently are for that matter.
I get where you're coming from, but I think there's more to it. Frieza has always been shown to have crazy high potential, kind of like Gohan. Goku Black is a unique case, and if you could explain what you mean by him not making sense, that would be great. Rage Trunks is a new form that we don't know much about yet, and I did cover the Universe 6 Saiyans in the video. As for Gohan, his power-ups are pretty consistent with what we saw in Z. If you could give more details on what you're thinking, it would help continue the conversation.
180,000 Goku with Kaioken becomes 3 mil in base from simply healing in the Namek Saga. And why are 17 and 18 so much stronger than Super Saiyans despite the fact that their creator Dr. Gero had no incline of what a Super Saiyan was? Why was Cell so much stronger than the components that made him up? How the hell does Tien's Tri Beam even budge Semi-Perfect Cell when people much stronger than him can't even make Cell flinch?
@@numberhunter62 All of This can be easily explained,Goku doesn’t get to 3 mil by simply healing,he gets whooped to the point he can’t even move and almost dies and as we have been explained prior to that Saiyans especially when they’re at levels that Goku was in Namek gain Zenkai Boosts. And Goku got like 30-33x stronger off of that which is a astronomically far cry from the billions of times side characters get in DBS,ever since og DB the Red Ribbon army was casually creating weapons and androids Far above what humans should be capable of and they had a pretty good idea of how tough Goku is,Gero estimated his growth perfectly as a Fictional Genius should and gave his creations an Infinite energy reactor on top of that ntm he worked in those Androids for decades,for comparison DBS gave one of those androids a Blue level amp by just living,do you see where Z and Super differentiate? Cell wasn’t “much stronger” than what made him up,Cell was worked on and made for 17 years on top of having Frieza,King Cold,Goku,Vegeta,Piccolo and the Human’s dna,and even on top of that he absorbed thousands of humans to get where he was at as Imperfect Cell,otherwise Piccolo was stronger than Cell prior to all that lol. And Tien derived from his very life to budge Semi Cell,that same Tien trained for threats stronger than Super Saiyans,compared to DBS,what you just said is a cakewalk.
@@SwmLee It makes 0 sense for Goku Black to take punches from SS2 Goku and not be barely able to stand,not only does this not happen Goku Black adapts within a day of this fight and Blitzes BLUE VEGETA in Base Form,covering something doesn’t equal you explaining it in a way it makes sense. Z and Super do not even begin to compare when it comes to sensical scaling,Z is much much more consistent to say the least.
In the first arc of Z… a 4 YEAR OLD Gohan got 1,000 times stronger vs Raditz during the fight, but everyone thinks Super broke power scaling😭😭
@@Sokhele I think the most crazy ones are the Krillin and piccolo one on namek that power leap was crazy😭😭
The first arc of super Goku power cliffs his billions of time s god forms and then cliffs his supersaiyan form again
It was more like 400-500x but yeah Gohan always had huge rage amps,but saying Super didn’t break power scaling is dumb,Golden Frieza got not 400 not 4000 not 400000 but literally infinitely stronger in 4 months lmao,if that makes sense to you then you just slow.
@@mvp746 Power scaling is simply telling us Freeza got exponentially more powerful in 4 months, the reason or quality behind it isn't the fault of power scaling.
And in DBZ there's stupid things like Kid Buu being the strongest form of Buu meaning he's stronger than Buuhan, and yet Goku is able to take him on rather well alone. And the only reason you can get for that is that he got buffed after de-fusing as Vegito.
Ooh, there's also Goku going from 180,000 with Kaioken to 3 mil in base from simply healing.
Second form freeza was 1000 times more powerful than raditz. You're being way too hyperbolic.
There's also how Dr. Gero somehow made Androids that far surpass Frieza and Super Saiyans despite Earth having much less advanced technology than the Frieza force, or how in a single day Goku jumped from a power level of 90k to 150 million
DBS didn't introduce anything that Z didn't already do. Just continuing what Z started
My biggest problem with the powercliffing is the Goku Black Arc. We start the arc with Base Black ~ SSJ2 Goku, and then out of nowhere he’s slapping Blue Vegeta. But then after that he gains Rosé which is his own variation of Blue, and yet later Black Arc Blue Vegeta beats his ass. This means Base Vegeta from later in the Black Arc beats his Blue self from earlier in the same arc, which is absurd
Yea this is actually the only thing I actually agree with cause the powerscaling and powercliffing in the goku black arc was just terrible
I think the reason this does make sense is because Goku black got a massive Zenkai bigger than one he would get from trunks after Fighting Goku who is a way better fighter than trunks in power and skill, so Goku black would get a stronger Zenkai as a result because he was clutching his chest because of how strong Goku was
And as for ssjr in the anime, because we never saw black use regular ssj this could means that his ssjr form (in the anime) has the same multiplier as a super Saiyan (while the manga version it is based of the multiplier for ssjb with ssj shown to be a separate form.) since the arc is so different in the manga and anime this could be possible
This makes sense because Zamasu kept his god ki in Goku's body with Goku even Comparing his chi when he is still a Kai to Zamasu in Goku's mortal body. so in the anime he probably just doesn't toggle his god ki on and off like Goku and instead just tapped into the full potential of a "super Saiyan god" making Vegeta power growth after spending his time in the time chamber make sense.
Do you agree? 🤔
@ I think Goku Black’s growth is consistent to a degree, sure. As far as the SSJR amp goes though I can’t really say for the anime as I haven’t watched it in a hot minute but if it was something more akin to a super saiyan amp it would make more sense. In the manga though it’s still a pretty massive cliff (although not nearly to the degree of the anime if Rosé is still a blue level amp); not the biggest fan of the arc regardless but your arguments do make sense
This view doesn't make sense, and I'll try to explain why. You have to understand that the DBS writers are idiots when it comes to power scaling, so you need to follow some rules of thumb. One of them is Goku and Vegeta are always on par, unless the opposite is stated clearly. Why am I saying this? Well, in the same episode where base Black stomps Blue Vegeta, Blue Goku fights Rosè Black. At no point in Dragon Ball Z Goku was 50 times stronger than Vegeta, and in Super, a show where Goku and Vegeta are basically the two main characters (you could argue the only characters for most of it), it would be ridicolus to think they're so far apart.
But even without following this intuition, in the Potaufeu saga Goku and Vegeta were shown to be on par, and in the 2nd future voyage they're again shown to be on par.
So in this case you just have to say that the base Black - Blue Vegeta fight was incoherent with what was shown before and after, and as such it's not relevant to the overall scaling. You can even invent an in-universe explanation, for example "Vegeta was holding back", but it might as well be bad writing because they Super writers at just very bad power scalers
Dragon Ball power escalation was always ridiculous. But Super multiplies it by 50 times. Like, back in the day they at leat tried to cover it up with training, potential unlocks, rage boosts and whatever.
Now character A just sleeps for one hour and wakes up with the power to sneeze away fiction and now Goku and Vegeta how to train for 50 billion years just to stand near him.
But its just unfair to criticise super for it and turning blind eye on Z, it was always a problem, just like you explained. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
look you havent watched the show. also beerus is a god of destruction he doesnt really count for powerscaling.
@@senseiwu7814 brother he is nothing bit constantly changing pedastool for goku and vegeta to reach. All they have to tell is beerus started to train to ensure these saiyans dont come close to him. But nope he was always that strong even though multiple times goku and vegeta had surpassed him.
@@harikiranv8580in the anime this is true but not in the manga tho
@@harikiranv8580he's only a moving goal post because many people use the BOG movie scaling for the anime even though they don't work together
@@RaginDragn24 Vegito Blue was stated to be rivaling Beerus. But then Goku surpassed him in the TOP and still gets onesot by beerus. Jiren was stated to rival Belmod, his universes G.O.D. And Belmod was shown to be stronger than the average G.O.D in the G.O.D exhibition match. Goku then surpassed Jiren multiple times over and casually oneshots him now. AND STILL Beerus claims that Goku and Vegeta are MILLIONS OF YEARS OF TRAINING away from him 😭 Beerus makes no sense lol
idk dude, knowing Krillin would bodyslam Buuhan is still weird to me😂
Krillin is the goat😭
@@SwmLee yup, the turtle way is no joke
@SwmLee he literally wouldn't though and this why it's so dumb cause yall don't take into account krillin has NO ATTACK on the level of a Spirit bomb that would even kill any form of buu let alone buuhan, you think a destructo disk is doing the trick? Like cmon now
This is why I said straight up in my video most of the fandom is ignorant😭 bro just look at my 50 second Krillin short and that’s all you need to see
@@SwmLee nothing you said in there answers my question, how does krillin despite how strong you think he is kills buu? All buu need to do is blow up the planet and krillin still dies while buu will regen
i fully agree , People don't understand that once you have a goal to train for(example: you have a power level of 20 and want to reach someone who has a power level of 200) then you will reach that goal easily , even the likes of Yamcha could reach beyond anything shown in OG Dragon Ball by the first arc of Z simply because he had a goal , W video.
Exactly‼️💯
Na fam i watched master ROSHI weave JIREN'S punches like they were nothing while ultra instinct goku was getting stomped ... The power creep in super is ridiculous
😭😭
People just too blinded by nostalgia to criticize the old shows and to critical of new things in general as a whole nowadays
Gohan being stronger than Raditz is crazy
Krilling being stronger than every saiyan in namek arc is crazy
Gero making androids stronger than frieza is crazyyyyyy
Goten being strong enough to destroy the planet at 7 is crazy
Gero got to be the craziest one, because you’re telling me that no one else in the universe was as smart as Gero and could make their own androids to woop frieza?
@@trolly6451 yea facts
@@trolly6451Dr gero is the only one in the universe to have drones watching the battles that take place on earth and study them including frieza and trunks n had 3 years to add that data. Sooo no it’s not crazy.
Krillen is fighting along side goku and vegeta and gohan THE STRONGEST SAYIANS and keeping up why wouldn’t he also be able to wipe planet vegeta ?
And all the saiyans as kids can destroy a planet. Especially if they go great ape. Kid vegeta would blow up earth
@@staticfrass9933 "collecting data" is a bs excuse for them being so powerful.
Everything but the Kid Buu stuff was pretty spot on.
Fr, Kid buu is not stronger than BuuHan
@@winstona5091 I never said kid buu was stronger I said there are arguments that suggest that. I never said I agree with those statements though
I’ve been debating this for longest‼️ Goated video
I think power levels make no sense in Z, Super and GT
And that’s valid if you think that. I’m just addressing when people say Super has bad power scaling when it’s the same in Z.
@@SwmLee Agree, you know what they say: "don't mess with us dragon ball fans, we haven't even watched the show"
@@filippvarelis1999 facts😭 btw do you think a Toji from jjk vs mercenary Tao video would be good?
@@SwmLee yea, I think it'll be an interesting video
@@filippvarelis1999 appreciate 💯
Your exceptionally clever when it comes to the power scaling of DBZ. I’m a Power Scaling Buff myself. DBS is a bit confusing cuz it has a few unknown concept to most fans. That coupled with unnecessary hate from select fans who find anything & everything wrong wit Super. Phenomenal Video God. You did Exceptional!!! Just subscribed notifications bell on!!!
Appreciate man‼️
Fr bruh it wouldn't make sense if buu saga vegito was stronger then bog goku because goku himself said fusion wouldn't work but when he got ssjg he was able to fight him well
It's still vastly more extreme. Just because it happened earlier doesn't mean it's better now. And as some already pointed out the explanations back then were usually more elaborated (even if they make no logical sense). Ever since the U6 tournament the power escalation happens without any kind of attempt on logic.
I think with Dragon Ball characters probably have a sort of multiplier where the stronger you get, the more and more your strength’s potential to accelerate get bigger, but the more potential you have to lose your strength gets bigger. It’s easier to go from God to Blue than Kaio-Ken to Super Sayain, but not training consistently as a SSB will make you as weak as Kid Buu. Does that make sense? It’s easy for characters to get crazy powerful if they’re above that Super Sayain 2 threshold in terms of power growth. This is pretty evident with Goku, Gohan, Android 17, Freeza… pretty much with a bit of potential and being at a certain range they can catch up. The issue isn’t crazy potential, it’s inconsistency. Android 17 catching up is great but there are A LOT of issues with that that need explaining
You're right most of the characters such as humans have been training for years so it makes sense why they would be above characters such as cell kid buu and namek frieza. Just thinking about it this way dbz villains are like gifted children and krillin and other humans are like hard working students, they both can achieve great power in the future but one group doesn't train at all and are gifted from birth with massive potential [ frieza, cell, buu ] that they don't use compared to other characters in the series, but when they got defeated or surpassed by the hard working characters like goku or vegeta they return they take stuff seriously and train for some time and suddently beat everyone who has been training hard for few years.
🙏🏻 finally someone that actually understands db inverse scaling
I found you thanks to Tony skeptical and I have to said that as things are now I love your contents
Keep it up man 💪
Appreciate man! 💯
Super hero arc krillin = super hero arc 18 > moro arc 18 = moro arc 17 > ToP arc 17 = ToP arc blue. And this is not so crazy cuz even moro arc base form piccolo > ToP blue.
Before the 2 months time skip, 73 enhanced his body absorbing ultimate gohan's kamehameha in ch. 54, but in ch. 56 base form piccolo destroyed half of 73 body. In super hero arc every base warrior scaled to a base piccolo who was far above ToP ultimate gohan (base goku/vegeta/gohan/goten/trunks, 18, krillin..)
If they think super broke the scaling wait until they realize that Goku during the ginyu fight was 60k in base, and after his zenkai boost he jumped to 3 million (150 million as a super Saiyan, 150m/50 = 3 million) somehow 😭 he somehow got 2.94 million battlepower from the ginyu fight
They just climb higher and higher gaps, the thing is it's always been like this in dragon ball where when they're training to reach new heights they get there. In Saiyan Saga the humans go from below 23rd WT Piccolo and Goku to above raditz. Android Saga arguably every Z fighter is close to or vastly above mecha frieza. In the dbz anime Yamcha is arguably super perfect cell level by the end of the kid buu arc.
The issue is they reach these new heights too fast and without much leading to it. ROF everyone is below buu saga gohan level to in less than a year of doing some training is on the level of a super saiyan god. Piccolo reaching this height even faster with his special beam cannon alone in the universe 6 arc, and gohan with light training can rival base goku in their sparring match. This same Goku who spent another 3 years in the hyberbolic time chamber training with vegeta. It's quite frankly insane how they break these limits despite not much happening to cause it.
No lie that weightlifting analogy was on point. For some reason it got me hype
It was my favorite part of editing 😭😭
@@SwmLee as it should be lol, god bless brother
Kid Buu > Buuhan tells me that SSJ3 Goku could box with Vegito, so you can see why I disagree with that take.
Also, I don't think anyone can justify Trunks killing Zamasu when Blue Vegito couldn't with Final Kamehameha. Or how 17, who seemingly stuck with being a park ranger or anyone training less hard for less time, for some reason get strong enough to contest Goku after a god boost to his base, with Frieza training for 4 months being the biggest example I can mention. It goes beyond statements, like U6 saiyans being that strong, it's the progression we see for ourselves that make no sense with the characters we kept up with all this time. DBS scaling makes me almost believe TOP Krillin could fight merged Zamasu 😂
My main point is to say DBZ is not a saint when it comes to this, but DBS is way worse about it.
Krillin video incoming 😭
@@SwmLee you just got a subscriber just from that alone 😭 the vid itself is a good watch
@cagnacagnacagnacagna1127 Ws man💯
That's because it's an anime exclusive issue. In the manga Kid Buu is probably the second weakest version of Buu. Both Buuhan and Super Buu are supposed to be stronger than Kid Buu but the anime decided to contradict that. There's no way a SSJ3 Goku could take on Kid Buu if he lost the source of his power and if the previous version required fusion which is basically A + B * Some number for Potara
@@crestofhonor2349 The whole anime scene part was never to prove Kid Buu was stronger than Buuhan, but just to say there are some arguments available. I don't even believe Kid Buu is stronger than Buuhan, but Kid Buu was definitely stronger than regular Super Buu, as it was implied in the manga, which I showed in the video.But there are also a lot of anime-only scenes in the Super anime that aren't in the manga, which people use to discredit it.
I would argue that what you are referring to is power escalation, and that supers biggest issue was power scaling.
I dont really ever see an issue with how quickly someone gains strength. Who am i to say a fictional race like the sayians can't grow that quickly? The issue is when you have a guy that can fight on a multiversal level yet gets bruised by a normal gun. While i get that it was more to highlight gokus pretty stagnant state compared to what he needed to be doing since gaining god power, there were definitely better ways of doing it.
Or how krillin did against goku. Even if goku wasn't trying, you can't limit krillins power and at the same time have him holding off a ssgss goku. While it wouldve been weird, if they had just made krillin THAT much more powerful, i would've been okay with that. But no, they heavily imply and say that hes COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY out of his league at this point, yet he hilds off a blue goku, even if goku wasnt trying and it wasnt for long. Like either make him powerful enough to scale to goku like that, or just leave him out.
Yea I agree with this💯
The power scaling is not really that hard. Pay attention to the dialog and animation.
There are reasons why people criticize super but give Z a pass the an extent, 1) when Z was airing most of if not all of it's fans were kids who didn't give a damn about power levels or scaling we just watched the cool fights but with super those fans have grown up and are now thinking a lot harder about what they watch. 2) The internet wasn't anything like it was today so people weren't coming together as much to talk about things like they are now. 3) When Z came out there wasn't much anime and it practically grandfathered the shonen genre, but now there is so much more to watch and the quality and complexity has gone up meanwhile as you've shown super is doing much of what Z did, which was fine in the 90's but it's been almost 30 years since it ended and it's doing much of the same, but with less character building, less stakes and harder to process scale.
I guess you could say people are expecting more now then they did 30 years ago.
That's why I always laugh when someone says oh saitama will catch up to goku cause he xan grow exponentially .
Like z fighter's are gonna sit around on same lvl.
Yea, I don’t even know why people even say that the saiyans grow stronger during battle more than they do in training. Tournament of Power is the perfect example
Great video!
@@rodthedigger2902 Thanks man! But just to warn I do jumble over like 4 words in the video😭
You are 100 % Right, nice Video 💪🏼
Plus other people train, just cause they not the main universe don’t mean they should not be strong
I don’t get how Krillin is so strong at all. He’s probably the strongest human and has surpassed the same version of Freiza that boomed him earlier in the series. The Saiyan make sense, Gohan makes sense. Krillin should be people’s biggest complaint for power creep imo
Actually around the Kid Buu Part, it’s crazy when you consider that SS Goku who was nerfed to a 100th of his base power oneshotted a clone of Ultimate Gohan who was stated to be as strong as the original, meaning Base Goku during the fight with Kid Buu should be doing the Same. And this is supported by Gohan literally fearing the Ki of Buuhan and Goku even said Kid Buu was the strongest version of Buu and there’s no reason to exclude Buuhan from that.
If I don’t than I be debating for hours against buuhan fanboys 😭😭 so that’s just saves me time
@@SwmLee That’s fair, I actually posted Scans saying DBZ Anime and Manga are in the same continuity by Toriyama himself in my community post tab.
Ssj Goku did not defeat Gohan lol, nor did Goku say Kid Buu was the strongerst Buu, both of those things are anime filler lmao. I love the selective memory though, as Goku, after ”defeating Gohan” and freeing his friends, makes a statement to Vegeta that they can’t go outside of Buu even after him reverting, because even base Super Buu is too much for them. And yes, that statement is in the manga too, so canon.
Gohan is waay above even ssj3 Goku, and so is Gotenks. That is why they were left out of the final fight so Goku could have the spotlight.
It’s so funny to me that grown ass people would think it’s in any way logical story telling that Goku just suddenly magically becomes so much stronger that he is suddenly stronger in ssj1 than he was in ssj3 just moments ago, and that he would be able to fight an ”even stronger” enemy when the ”weaker” opponent needed fusion to have any chance against🤣 it must be some sort of brainrot. Buuhan is *obviously* the strongest form, while Kid Buu is the most dangerous due to his destructive and unpredictable nature. That is what is stated in canon, nothing more.
@@grydon6422 Anime Filler is canon to the Manga aswell, also Gohan is not even close to SS3 Goku’s Level and neither is Gotenks. Mind you in the manga, Piccolo didn’t think SS1 Gotenks held a candle to Fat Buu despite knowing SS3 Goku could win.
@@grydon6422 ALSO, The Daizennshu even said if Goku and Vegeta lost against Kid Buu, no one could hold a Candle to Kid Buu, also implying even if Filler wasn’t canon, SS2 Vegeta >>> Ultimate Gohan.
Some of the scaling issues are anime exclusive. Particularly the ones with Kid Buu and any filler characters like Olibu. None of the filler characters were in the manga so that wasn't a scaling issue. Kid buu on the other hand is pretty clearly stated to be weaker than Super Buu and Buuhan as he lost all of the power of the characters he had absorbed. This is exactly why SSJ3 is all that is needed to face Kid Buu in the manga and why Vegito was needed for Super Buu.
Also to correct one misconception that's very annoying to hear. Krillin does not match SSJB Goku. The whole point of that scene was for Goku to test how Krillin would do against who has a power far greater than his own. He does well against base Goku partially because he knows how Goku fights better than anyone. Secondly he does get close in terms of overall power. With SSJ1/2 he is already on the losing side as well and then Blue further makes that gap even wider. Goku is testing him and if people actually watched that entire mini arc with Krillin it was supposed to show how scared he was of fighting against opponents that were potentially much stronger than him.
Also GT and parts of the DBZ anime are just as bad with scaling with some of the points I made in regard to the anime
From an objective standpoint, I still think it's pretty sloppy writing for the sake of advancing the stakes as the series goes on (throughout the whole franchise,) but it doesn't really matter to me because it all leads to touching moments and incredible action scenes. It's not the logistics of power-scaling and the like that are barely touched upon in any meaningful way that should decide the overall quality, but the stories that are being told and the art that the creators meticulously put together.
The difference here is we are constantly being told in the anime that Goku and Vegeta have reached their limits and cannot get much stronger. Then u have ppl saying that T.O.P blue Goku one shots blue Goku from black arc. Then Moro blue Goku one shots t.o.p Mui Goku. Then gas arc base Goku one shots Moro arc Goku.
Because they find people who surpassed their “limits” that they thought they were already at and they see they can push it further and now have a new goal I don’t think you people understand dragon ball when you read or watch it. I specifically remember Goku telling a few of the villains this fact that since he has a level goal and level to reach he can do such a thing that’s simple as it gets 😂
@@Simplystimulating replying to me then addressing me as you people. Okay, what you say does not make sense to the context. They can surpass their limits and get new forms but its quite clear in the anime and manga which if you claim you know youd be able to quote in ur next reply that they can no longer get zenkais and increase their physical forms. Vegeta for example shattering his limit and getting blue evovled is not an example one would make to debunk the prior claim.
The only problem I have with the super hero movie was Gohan having a ass pull of a transformation. Before anyone says what about piccolo? His was explained and he's the creator of the db's meaning he gets bonuses like that when wishing.
I think dragon ball characters version of power creep is similar to Saitama in the way that characters potential can increase to an unknown cap based on there level of strength at the time (except saiyan's who are infinite), let's use goku and Gohan as examples
goku was born with a low power level because he had a low potential but when he starts training with roshi it's shown he has potential far higher than imaginable, and then in king piccolo saga master korin said if pre ultra divine water Goku would take a few years to match king piccolo's strength but when goku get's that potential of being piccolo's level he trains in that few years korin was talking about and becomes hundreds of times stronger than korin expected goku's potential to be
gohan is known for having high potential but in the namek saga we see gohan got his potential unlocked so that should have been his cap but then we see Gohan could still become far stronger when he enters the time chamber and then in buu saga Gohan gets his potential unlocked again it's far beyond a super Saiyan 3 level boost than his namek saga somewhat Vegeta level boost
Pretty good video, the only problem is that it doesn't make a clear distinction between power creep and the general power scaling of the show. While I agree that dbs power creep is fine by z standards, there are blatant moments of inconsistent power scaling that aren't mentioned in dbs. For example, Trunks getting smacked around by base goku black and then going on to fight relatively with rose goku black (pre ssj rage). Also, Beerus' strength, in battle of gods stated to be using 70% of his power against god goku but with this being retconned. There's also Friezas strength as he was able to fight with broly for over an hour (not on par, but still). This ssj broly was taking hits from ssjb goku and vegeta combined, and was throwing around ssj gogeta, yet pre black frieza could fight with him. With these unexplained inconsistencies that are hard to find in z, it's clear why people say super's power scaling is bad
I didn’t even know Frieza or Trunks were also considered in the conversation, or I would’ve gone over them as well. Regarding Goku Black, he never fought Trunks seriously until Trunks achieved his rage form; Goku Black loves dragging fights out to discover more of his potential. As for Broly vs. Frieza, it wasn’t a fight but rather one-sided. We already know how durable Frieza is from Z, where he survived a planet explosion while being cut in half and having only a portion of his body left. He is also relative to Goku and Vegeta in their SSB forms in the Tournament of Power, so it’s not too far-fetched to say he got stronger post-TOP, just like Goku and Vegeta, or also grew from the Broly fight. Additionally, Broly didn’t start throwing around SSJ Gogeta until he went full power Super Saiyan, which Frieza didn’t face.
frieza does get stronger quicker than goku and vegeta. wich is why he is usually slightly stronger hwne they havent fought. like when he was strong enough to resist hakai but goku wasnt. but yeah also beerus kinda lied to give goku hope.
@SwmLee those are some good points I hadn't thought about with regards to the frieza /black fight . There's also another elephant in the room which people don't talk about, piccolo vs frost, where ssj goku in u6 tournament (which is relative /equal to God goku in battle of gods) fought on par with Frost, with Piccolo also doing so to a lesser extent. Despite being on the back foot, he still fought with a god goku level character, with no reasonable explanation explaining this jump. There's also blue goku vs krillin which I'm surprised you didn't bring up (I don't think its an example of bad power scaling but still).I think the main problem of dbs power scaling is God ki. How other characters were able to get to the level of battle of Gods goku extremely quickly. The level of "God" let's say seemed to be a barrier unbreakable without divine intervention (e.g training from whis/dragon balls) Yet, characters like piccolo/krillin/master roshi got to that level quickly, with much less training, leading to questions like why goku didn't get to God level during his training with king Kai post z. But overall, I do agree with most of your points, I don't think dbs power scaling is awful, with a bit more explanation it could work.
@@senseiwu7814that statement of him being 70% was said by Whis to Beerus, which is where the problem comes in
@@supersonicdj1631 he also says some stuff himself like when he supposedly uses full power. the reason he lied about his power is the same reason he lied that monacca is the strongest in the universe. it was to motivate goku to get stronger
I think you're underselling how weird some power jumps are in Super. Crazy power jumps in Z were still half-justified, with either Zenkais or months long trainings. In Super characters like Krillin, 18 and Gohan get random power boosts in little time just to stay on par. And even characters with better justifications like Frieza or Roshi still make bigger and less realistic jumps than characters in Z.
But this is not even the main problem with Super scaling, imo. The main thing with Super scaling is that it's very incoherent. If you watch the show attentively you WILL notice the writers don't have the slightest idea of what they're doing.
For example, they clearly fucked up deciding to make Goku absorb God in base, and from the Champa saga onwards they seemed to walk that decision back. You see Frost fighting with Piccolo, base Goku and Vegeta still staying in tier with base Future Trunks, base Goku fighting with Bergamo, whose brother is Good Buu tier. Stuff like that makes you think they just walked back the God absorbing thing. But then you look back to Copy Vegeta VS Gotenks SSj3 and you go fucking insane. Have they walked the decision back, or not? They have no idea of what they're doing.
Another thing that infuriates me is that A LOT of times power ups mid fight only feel like they serve to give dopamine to viewers, and after the power up scene is ended, the fight continues THE SAME as before. This makes power scaling also more complicated and incoherent.
Why is SSjB KK10 Goku fighting Hit with not that much ease than SSjB Goku, considering it is stated multiple times Hit doesn't get stronger when he ups his timeskip? Why does Goku Black powers up like 3 times against SSj2 Goku and performs the exact same? Why does Merged Zamasu get glazed the fuck out and is then rivaled by some motivated Saiyans? Why does Gohan become SSj against Lavenda and perform the same? Why do Saiyans become SSj against the three wolves in ep 98 and perform just barely better?
There are probably a lot of other weird things I could call out but I just wanted to explain my true gripes with Super's scaling lol
"kid boo stronger than super boo" Credibility decreases under zero
Bro you just called them “boo” instead of buu 😭
@@SwmLee now say it again without crying
@@rancidtastetv4953 ?
Bro woke up and decided to Cook this gourmet meal. Save the DBS Powerscaling Society SwmLee😂😂😂
I will try bro😂😂
Bro is a tank
Super's scaling is not that crazy actually, it's the people who make it crazy. The main issue is that base goku and vegeta are grossly overrated, which means everyone who's remotely close to them is too, indirectly
Future trunks cut Fused Zamasu In half when moments prior VEGITO F*CKING BLUE was boxing him 😭 And Roshi after not training since OG dragon ball can oneshot BOG SSJG GOKU 💀
@AlmightyDivine2925 yeah future trunks by himself? Or with a fucking spirit bomb lol? And the roshi one has to be the biggest cap ever conceived ngl
I don’t know who said it but someone said they ready these levels without training? Untrue in the manga they show all their training but in the anime ofc they can’t but they still show them train to get SSG Blue so whatever I guess people watch this shit with their eyes closed?! Gokū black become overpowered because his only limit was base form Goku no one was more powerful than that he only reached normal SSJ but the first time he’s shown a god form SSG or SSG blue he learns the form too. They just learn faster and copy moved better than normal humans they’re aliens and most of these people aren’t human they evolve, adapt etc they’re the Usain
Bolts of athletics, they’d have fucking hundreds of gold medals if they were athletes
So to me the power scaling isn’t as awful as some of these people think it is or write it Goku and Vegetta seem to always push their limit when they fight a more powerful opponent and that’s because they train to do that. Their body’s are powerful enough to handle these new modes they “magically” unlock without any training. No they train. They’re at the peak condition of their races they can easily transfer into new forms if their body’s can handle it which they train so this is a possibility at all times
The manga does handle things better in some aspects over the anime for DBS
Really the only reason i think Z is better with power scaling is because of they way they atleast try to make it make sense like in dbz the excuse is "they trained hard", in dbs they usually don't even try
I don’t think I have ever seen base goten or trunks be able to solo dbz 💀
No DBS power scaling is far more absurd than in Z and makes no sense.
Krillin & Roshi got decillions of times stronger somehow while retired. That is more than the entirety of OG & Z's growth combined.
"Dragon ball super's power scaling isn't bad unless you believe DBZ's power scaling is bad."
It kinda is tho. Like it goes hard but that specific element of the show is bad, and super/GT only exacerbated it to a point it's kind of a joke lol
Super’s power scaling isn’t that bad I think it’s a natural progression from z theu already beat the terror of the universe Buu so the only thing left is god and divinity
Dragonball z happens by= years of training to powercliff your old supersaiyan forms
Dragonball super happens by=. Goku gets billions of times stronger byfighting for 48 minutes
Tien doing more damage to Semi-Perfect than people probably over a Super Saiyan difference stronger than him.
Goku getting so absurdly stronger from pre to post Vegito fusion.
Otherworld Tournament is also got this is spades. Pikon casually knocks the shit out of Cell with a single kick, demolishing all his ambitions in that one blow. Yet Goku, through the course of one tournament is able to reach that level of power in base.
Current Krillin is close to SH 18
Yep and moro arc 18 became so strong she was equal to moro arc 17.
This puts both super hero arc 18 and krillin around moro arc android 17/ToP arc blue.
you spitting fax. But i've been exposed to the toxicity of instagram reels for too long so why do you sound like mike tyson 💀
0:56 dis is goku power levelh
You good dawg you sound like you bouta cry in the beginning of the video.
@@crashtime3429 idk why my voice be doing that😭 I think it’s still a bit weird speaking in front a mic still
The difference between beginning of tournament power goku and broly movie or end of top is higher rhan the powercreep between saiyan and buu saga
Dbs powercreep makes dbz look normal
so a rusty Krillin giving super saiyan Goku (god ki) a hard time makes perfect sense?
Namke saga krillin not beating great ape vegeta tho
That’s definitely true 😭
In dbs goku cliffs for absolutely no reason
Literally trained more than anybody in the series
@@jamonrandomstuff4294 in fights
Thats exactly y ppl dont like superhero its jus a copy and paste of cell saga 😂
I get it from a writing point of view 😭 but not powerscaling
dragon ball gt
What about it?
In the manga it is not up for debate kid bu is below Buhan and arguably super buu
Lmao how do you actually reach the conclusion that kid buu is even close to super buu or buuhan ? Have you seen how easily black buu defeated fat buu ? Kid buu is black buu level at best .
@@commentstealer4460 did you not see the manga statement I placed? At the very least and most likely he is above super buu. I never actually stated he was above buuhan though just said there are arguments
He said cabba and vegeta was evenly match, that’s not true
It’s literally stated in the manga bro base to base they was equals.
Ch 12 page 6. Please know what you talking about before you post something ignorant
@@SwmLee I jus rewatched the anime episode when they fought and vegeta did say that, my bad😅 but u ain’t gotta be a bitch about it
People burres trains
I think top is the worst bc goku get billions or trillions of times stronger in less than an hour
Super Duper fans😭😭😭
Food video
Appreciate 💯
Yeah still dont make sense how android 17 that strong but aiii
May do a short on him! I actually forgot to include him in the video
He is one of the few that makes sense , an Android training with infinite stamina until now
Finally someone says the truth.
The truth is hard to accept at times😭
You were spitting and then you began doing some stupid stuff with Kid Buu.
If Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu doesnt that mean Kid Buu is stronger than Vegito??
Are you telling me Goku and Vegeta power crept all the way to being stronger than their fusion?
Please just stop with this dumb logic. Super Buu> Kid Buu
Bro what? How is super buu > vegito? Are you slow?
Z and Super are absolutely uncomparable in terms of consistent power scaling,in Z the very few and far in between nonsensical jumps are almost always from Gohan and even that is consistent from the day he is introduced,that and the Kid Buu & Goku shenanigans,otherwise Z is highly consistent,Super’ scaling literally does not make any sort of sense,Frieza,Black Goku somewhat,Rage Trunks,Android 17,Cabba,Caulifla & Kale,Gohan and a few others make absolute 0 sense to be anywhere near the level they were at when they were shown or currently are for that matter.
I get where you're coming from, but I think there's more to it. Frieza has always been shown to have crazy high potential, kind of like Gohan. Goku Black is a unique case, and if you could explain what you mean by him not making sense, that would be great. Rage Trunks is a new form that we don't know much about yet, and I did cover the Universe 6 Saiyans in the video. As for Gohan, his power-ups are pretty consistent with what we saw in Z. If you could give more details on what you're thinking, it would help continue the conversation.
180,000 Goku with Kaioken becomes 3 mil in base from simply healing in the Namek Saga.
And why are 17 and 18 so much stronger than Super Saiyans despite the fact that their creator Dr. Gero had no incline of what a Super Saiyan was? Why was Cell so much stronger than the components that made him up? How the hell does Tien's Tri Beam even budge Semi-Perfect Cell when people much stronger than him can't even make Cell flinch?
@@numberhunter62 I actually had a 5 minute rant of the original video about the Android saga but decided to toss it😭
@@numberhunter62 All of This can be easily explained,Goku doesn’t get to 3 mil by simply healing,he gets whooped to the point he can’t even move and almost dies and as we have been explained prior to that Saiyans especially when they’re at levels that Goku was in Namek gain Zenkai Boosts.
And Goku got like 30-33x stronger off of that which is a astronomically far cry from the billions of times side characters get in DBS,ever since og DB the Red Ribbon army was casually creating weapons and androids
Far above what humans should be capable of and they had a pretty good idea of how tough Goku is,Gero estimated his growth perfectly as a Fictional Genius should and gave his creations an Infinite energy reactor on top of that ntm he worked in those Androids for decades,for comparison DBS gave one of those androids a Blue level amp by just living,do you see where Z and Super differentiate?
Cell wasn’t “much stronger” than what made him up,Cell was worked on and made for 17 years on top of having Frieza,King Cold,Goku,Vegeta,Piccolo and the Human’s dna,and even on top of that he absorbed thousands of humans to get where he was at as Imperfect Cell,otherwise Piccolo was stronger than Cell prior to all that lol.
And Tien derived from his very life to budge Semi Cell,that same Tien trained for threats stronger than Super Saiyans,compared to DBS,what you just said is a cakewalk.
@@SwmLee It makes 0 sense for Goku Black to take punches from SS2 Goku and not be barely able to stand,not only does this not happen Goku Black adapts within a day of this fight and Blitzes BLUE VEGETA in Base Form,covering something doesn’t equal you explaining it in a way it makes sense.
Z and Super do not even begin to compare when it comes to sensical scaling,Z is much much more consistent to say the least.
Hmm no it isn't.