Tabu playing Francesca was the biggest surprise for me. Freaking TABU! One of the biggest actors from Bollywood! swoon. You just feel her screen presence the moment we see her.
Francesca has been around in the story! In the flashbacks she's one of the sisters who's close with Valya and composes her faction, played by Charithra Chandran.
Yeah... upon listening to the whole stream, I'm genuinely surprised that nobody came to the conclusion that the administrative messiness is the point. These philosophies and power structures that had matured 10 THOUSAND years by the main plot just lost their literal founders in living memory. It would be wildly unrealistic for an organization as sophisticated and dogmatic as the Benegesserit, or any fledgling organization, to mature by generation 2 or 3 and coast in their final form for 9,965 years. Things like abstract philosophical practices being rooted in very mundane, tangible consequence have real-world examples all over the place, from stigma against "unclean" animals to cleanliness rituals. None of that happens in a single generation
I can forgive some of what happens. A lot of it is just people being complete idiots though. Sure, they shouldn't be at the level they are by Dune, but they should be well on their way there. They should still be aware of their emotions and in control. That's what Truthsense is supposed to be essentially. They're aware of how emotions effect people and can use that to notice tiny changes in a person and tell if they're lying. If they have Truthsense, they must also be in some control of their own emotions.
@Cethinn while i understand the frustration of long-standing fans with certain expectations, the reason the Benegesserit are the force they are, and require what they do of Sisters, by the main time-line is specifically because they've had to test their training for milennia in a volatile political landscape that doesn't care about what they've been studying or how long they can hold their hands over flames in a quiet room. The results of ~50 years of study and practice vs. milennia of experience are objectively incomparable. Even then, the plot of the main story is about the absolutely catastrophic consequences of real life slightly deviating from an otherwise flawlessly* executed plan based on 10,000 years of applied theory and literally controlled down to the molecular level.
EXACTLY. They fail to understand this... they expect Paul's world at this time which is not even realistic or possible. Have of the stream is them ranting on this. Annoying really.
@@Cethinn We see they are in control or try to be in control but that these emotions overcome them. Also this show is for US, so we need to connect with them emotionally. If they were 1000% emotionless, we would care at all. In Dune we connect with Paul's emotions not with the BGst. We connect with Jessica because she fell into her emotions and did stupid stuff. Humanity at this time in the show is trying to overcome their emotions over the discipline. And you feel that. In 10 000 years into the future they are still fighting this (as we see with Jessica) but they are much better at it than they were now.
I've watched (and read) a lot of Dune reviewers and content creators reflecting on Dune prophecy and I've formed the opinion that a lot of you are trapped within your knowledge of the future.
Yup. Sadly. It's not perfect, but it's hardly terrible. I've never held a literary work I love on such a pedestal that I need the adaptation to have absolute fidelity.
@Raymanta82 yes I love it when content creators are passionate about the things we all love but sometimes it gets in the way of appreciating new things. However I think this is a net positive good thing because if these show runners take feedback seriously, it could mean meaningful changes moving forward (assuming prophecy doesn't get canceled)
min 40:37. You forget constantly that this is the organization in THEIR INFANCY. So basically all the things that you suppose to be like in Paul's time havent come to that point yet. The sisterhood isnt still a cohersive exploitative organization yet. They are somehow but not quite so.
I think a lot of issues you guys have is about thinking that it is the Bene Gesserit. They are not yet! They are the "sisterhood", they are still learning, improving, changing. They still have 10.000 years of improvement to go through before becoming what we know in Paul's time.
They are not that powerful BG of original Dune's time, but they are already developed enough organisation. They have to have certain level of discipline. But in the show almost all acting too emotional. And it's actually fine to have some feelings because they are humans after all. But there's no development of acolytes. It doesn't show how sisters' path to acceptance of their duties, putting emotions aside.
@Haterbek the un-addressed, escalating schism at the ideological core of this "developed organization" resulted in the leader of the arguably more disciplined faction being murdered in a coup, and it didn't even work. She pulled herself from the abyss with the power of spite and dangerous contraband to reclaim her faction, which never actually went anywhere. Even before Tula's genocide dumpster-baby decided to bring her the milk and cigarettes she went out for and microwave her sorority, I'm surprised they're keeping it together at all.
@@Haterbek They do have discipline but its obvious they haven't yet overcome the emotional aspect of humanity quite fully... that would be conquered 10 000 years into the future of perfectioning.
@@Alejojojo6 People keep saying this like BG is a person who acts differently according to age. But it is an organisation. And people in it spend equal amount of time on training no matter timeline it is. I mean that in Paul's time BG acolytes are trained from their childhood to overcome their humanity, and in Dune Prophecy's time they are trained from childhood to overcome their humanity. In future they will have develop skills and tools. But the idea of discipline, controlling emotions is already there. For an example, lets take the army in our world. In any era it is based on discipline. Any time in history they are all trained to do whatever their commanders say. Modern army has guns and other technologies and shit. 1000 years ago people had swords. Bit in both times if soldiers shows disobedience he gets punished. So in Dune universe it has to be the same.
💯 agree. The point of the show would be showing them develop, but we all know streamers just cancel everything adt 1-2 seasons so I think they've done really well considering all the factors at play.
On the point about Natalia kissing Desmond, I didn't take it as just the petty "feeling jilted so I'll get even" sort of thing. I took it as "I can control a powerful man with sex and encouragement too, and my control over a powerful man might trump yours, Francesca".
The reveal of Desmond’s heritage wasn’t supposed to be big in revealing the source of his powers or anything, or a connection to Paul (though obviously it does reference that), it was supposed to be big in regards to the character drama in that he’s Tula’s child.
I also feel like Raquella’s discovery of the retrovirus was also supposed to reveal a bit more about Desmond’s “power” than it really made explicit. In the show they said that it was the amygdala where the damage started, and I assume that means the fire damage - that somehow he’s got some aura of some kind that he can activate to hyper accelerate the affect of the virus, which could very well lead to a massive increase of heat, as almost all biological processes are exothermic, producing excess heat and, say, increasing a virus’ replication 50-100x or something could very well lead to ignition.
I know no one will see this, but the presenters assuming class presence gets more equal over time is hilariously under researched and misunderstood. The idea that the acolytes would have a harder time getting off world, or that trans-world travel would be more expensive earlier in the timeline ignores every trend of cost and consolidation of power of every society in actual history. This universe just fought a rebellion against powers who controlled everything. Things have not hashed out. Power inevitably files further into the hands of the powerful, but we’re only several hundred years away from a literal apocalypse. Suggesting it’s harder for the poor acolytes to fund something like interplanetary travel now than it would be 10,000 years from now is dumb.
@firpishable idk dude. It used to be impossible for regular working class people to fly anywhere. Now we holiday anywhere we want. I guess your point is wrong there 😊
There is something wrong with ALT SHIFT X's microphone. The sound equalization is off as it is incredibly boomy to listen to and the volume drops all the time. It's hard to listen to.
01:11:15 in the first or second episode Mother Raquella says the point of their DNA index is to breed "better leaders for the imperium..." Better, imo, is implied as more susceptible to the Sisterhoods' influence.
Always enjoyed your Dune videos through the years, especially the ones where you summarize the books. You really drive the themes home with your readings and voicings of characters. 👍🏼👍🏼
I didn’t read the kiss between Natalya and Desmond as romantic. He basically just got done explaining his mother-induced trauma to her; Natalya likely sees this as an opportunity to gain power and control over Desmond by taking on a motherly role, even if a bit twisted. She’s more like the sisterhood than she would care to admit. The kiss is also reminiscent of the kiss between Baron Harkonnen and Feyd when he is awarded governorship over Arrakis in Dune: Part Two - there is an element of sealing a pact, “let us rid this universe of these witches forever.”
48:18 in Frank’s books, *spice = oil* … therefore it was always about “control” and outsiders coming in and subjugating the native people in order to profit/benefit from this extremely rare and valuable resource.
I agree with you guys about the Desmond "reveal". I think sci-fi and fantasy stories do this a lot, where being part of the "cool/special" bloodline becomes the characters whole thing. With Paul and Jessica it makes sense, but with Desmond it doesn't really answer any questions..
33:10 the actress did a excellent job of “channeling” Raquella… an older, wiser, founder of the Bene Gesuit. The difference between her and Lila was clear.
I don't quite understand simultaneously disliking Desmond's power for not being grounded in science AND being too grounded in science. I also, to a lesser degree don't really get where it got lost that the Sisterhood is obviously a struggling organization in its infancy, 30 years after a coup murder.
But then why are they the most trusted in the universe, with a truthsayer in every house and in the ear of every Baron and Duke? It feels like they really should be an underground organization at this time, growing slowly and spreading fingers out to push the buttons in power. It's a bit confusing in current form, much like the prequel books.
Desmond's power just seems somehow off I guess, so that's why people dislike it. I personally don't really care so far, so you have a point. But I disagree with an excuse that BG is in its infancy. Yes, they are obviously not that powerful organisation as in Paul's time. But they are not completely new organisation neither. Their goal and ideology like "sisterhood above all" are already established. It's fine to have problems with getting influence over the great houses, how exactly should they act. But it is not an excuse for them to act that emotional. Both in this time and 10k years after all the sisters spend equal amount of time in training. In future they will have more skills, but controlling emotions is already what they are taught in Dune Prophecy's time. But they are just too much disobedient, too emotional. But the main problem for me is that show doesn't work on it at all. I would even buy them being so disobedient, if writers showed how they evolve from doubting acolytes and sisters to women who understand what they are doing and what does it cost. It's a prequel after all. Why don't they focus on how they become that dedicated to the cause, ruthless and cynical organisation.
@Haterbek Real human beings, even those who are well versed in the theory behind technique and discipline, don't actually know how they'll perform until they face what they've been training for and are confronted with real consequences for failure. At this point in the show the Sisterhood is still in the middle of what seems to be the first real trial with adversity from the outside that can't be immediately stamped out with truthsense and reconnaissance, the only skills they currently have practical experience applying. Their lessons, exercises and hypotheticals aren't worthless, true. Still, everything until this point, _especially_ for the acolytes, has been fundamentally untested training in a largely controlled environment. Training at the level some viewers expect would render The Agony a wildly unnecessary risk that arguably violates their beliefs about the sanctity of the mind, for results that could just have been written down and studied.
In Brian's books, Raquella was a member of the sorceresses of rossak(some of whom had telekinesis). Raquella herself was able to manipulate molecules with her mind. Desmond's powers aren't that far fetched if one reads the Brian Herbert Dune books
15:20 if you're still questioning how he survived on the ship: With his shield on, any falling debris would be falling too fast to penetrate the shield and crush Desmond. So his shield protected him from the explosion and debris.
I think their argument is that any falling debris would have, yes, fallen fast, but then what? A large piece of building is resting on a shield that lets slow things penetrate... you are 100% going to be crushed by whatever is on top of you within 30 seconds.
Also it seems to explosion was still strong enough to "overload" his shield - hence why he's not shielded anymore when he wakes up, or we'd see the blue distortion everytime he touched something afterwards.
Debris landing on him might be too fast for a moment maybe, but once it's sitting on top of him it'd go through and he'd be crushed. It can stop a quick impact. It can't stop a force slowly pushing in. It's just plot armor. He just didn't die because the story needed him alive.
@@Cethinn I mean you also don't see any debris on him. You can call it plot armor that he was lucky as shit he only got hit by the explosion (which the shield could absorb) and was not burried in rubbles - but the logic is sound, and him being that fucking lucky (and admitting it himself), helps make him into this weird messiah figure to the empress and all -- I'm not denying I thought that was a bit contrived there, but it's also not there just for shits and giggles, there's a point to all of this I'd wager.
@@abynighteater5670 I really doubt there's a point to him just being incredibly lucky, unless they just don't understand the universe. He shouldn't have made it out of there unless he did something to earn it. Yeah, no rubble fell on him, but it's not like that explains anything. How did rubble not fall on him. Plot armor is a term used to describe writers just making characters survive stupid situations without explaining why. That's what this is. It's poorly written and contrived.
Francesca is one of Valya’s friends from the earlier eps. She has a few lines but she’s part of Valya’s crew. Valya uses the voice to make them slap each other. She placed all her friends in key positions around the emperor, Francesca as the imprinter/concubine and Kasha as his truthsayer. She’s had him under control for a very long time, no wonder the Queen is so pissed!
The explosions didn’t bring the building down on him. These were small grenades designed for room clearing, not bringing down buildings. And they were spread throughout the rooms of the building, in a way that would be disruptive, but not cause serious structural failure. So the shields just needed to protect him from the initial series of explosions, with things being thrown around rather than secondaries with things falling down.
1:12:42 well said! It really does feel like the primary Sisterhood drama is born from a really bad boss who doesn’t communicate her plans to the workers.
35:30 "fear is the mind killer... literally", "this is so midichlorians" lmaoooo 🤣 (edit: and I agree with cookies, it's much worse than midichlorians which I don't even mind in star wars)
21:57 The notion that the shift from magical thinking to rational thinking is connected to Protestantism is a modern myth restricted to the Anglosphere (even if you only focus on the origins of sci-fi). As a born atheist coming from a traditionally Catholic-majority country, I wasn't even aware of it until I started reading books in English, and it was interesting to explore its origins and the cultural biases it is rooted in. The notion originated among 19th century British and American elites after the Enlightenment. They saw this false contrast between the backwards folk religion of Catholic immigrants and the rationality of the intellectuals of their own class (superimposed on the changing fortunes of Catholic and Protestant colonial empires at the time), which ignored both backwards Protestant folk religion (which evolved into the Evangelicals who are destroying the US at the moment) and cultural elites in Catholic countries (above all the French Enlightenment; but also the reactionary but very much _reasoning_ Counter-Reformation writers and orators people in the US & UK know almost nothing about, except maybe for the Jesuits). At its origin, Protestantism was a form of popular back-to-the-roots fundamentalism, and it quickly evolved very fundamentalist and fanatic forms (very much like earlier movements branded "heretic"). The witch hunts weren't restricted to Catholicism at all (just read up on how Kepler had to save his own mother). Since Protestantism wasn't as top-down as Catholicism, this even led to internal conflict. What gave rationalism a real chance wasn't Protestantism, but the fizzling out of the Protestant vs. Catholic religious wars without a clear winner, and the resulting disillusionment in religious authority in a significant subset of both the population and the elites, even if independent thinking still faced severe repression. In Catholic-majority countries, the road from the 30 Years' War to Enlightenment was more revolutionary. In the Anglosphere, the key event was the English Civil War, which didn't end just with the defeat of Catholics, but the banishment of the most extreme Protestants to the Americas (known in US collective memory as the "persecution" of the Pilgrims). There were further steps in moderation both in Britain (where Cromwell's still pretty hardcore fundamentalist followers were sidelined after his death) and the Colonies (where the Salem witch trials taught some people different lessons).
You find plenty of logic in 15th century and 16th century Catholic Dominated Italy. You find logic developments from St. Thomas Aquinas, or England's John Wycliffe in the 1300's. Seeing as how universities are established several centuries before the Protestant schisms of Martin Luther, even under jesuit teaching, I was never informed of any myth that rational thinking magically popped up in 1517.
@@Shamino1 Certainly not under the Jesuits as they were established in 1540 🙂 Reading about High Middle Age heretical movements, it's striking how much they resemble later Protestants: popular preachers and their followers whom the feudal elite and/or the Church come to see as a threat. What made it impossible to put the Protestant genie back in the bottle the same way as every time before (though the Hussites came pretty damn close) was the spread of the printing press and reading among commoners, expanding the reach of the popular preachers. Counter-Reformation is something Dune readers should appreciate as a diabolical long-term strategy (with the Jesuits acting with a hidden agenda like the Bene Gesserit). While for in the Anglosphere, the word "Counter-Reformation" might only recall the suppression of big thinkers like Galileo Galilei or Giordano Bruno by the Inquisition and bloody finales like the extermination of the Huguenots in France, the ground was often laid with decades-long soft power campaigns, using well-educated preachers who could sway the masses and feudal lords alike and hold their own against Protestant preachers, new orders providing public and private general education, and other new orders providing public healthcare - all of them relying at least in appearances on the new rational and scientific paradigms.
No one says that, and I didn't say that either. In fact, in this actual stream, I bring up natural philosophy as a precursor to modern science. @Shamino1
Raquella shouldn't have the memories of her death bed. Fro what I remember of other memory, it's the memories of the mother up until the point of conception where it gets genetically imprinted. It's only when reverend mothers start sharing their memories that they really start building up. But this version of Raquella, if it is her, should only have the memories that each prior maternal parent had at the point of their kid's conception.
I never got this argument bc it ignores the fact that male memories can be accessed as well, though a rare feat, it's still possible, so how would u get their memories if they never gave birth?
This show suffers from the same problem nearly all modern shows suffer from. Short seasons. How do you fully flesh out characters and storylines when you only have 6 episodes? Some characters are well fleshed out, but some others we haven't spent enough time with, and sadly, we only have one ep left. I'd love for this show to get another season despite it's issues but I'm unsure if it will.
1:35:13 yea the knife scene was so dumb. Like you could've had the same effect by having him say "i recognize those moves" instead of a knife that makes no sense to keep.
Yeah, she's playing the role of rebel who's also a smuggler, who's playing the role of a bartender. It'd be expected for her to have some way to defend herself. Why wouldn't she just have some normal knife? It makes less than no sense. It's actively against what should be expected.
Not a fan of BH and haven't been a fan of KJA since he wrote the most boringest star wars books back in my high school days, I was so disappointed to see it was him of all people that was bringing the new books to life, but I gave them a chance, and just like Star Wars, they got super gross with the violence and gore and everything felt military and forced... I still read maybe 5 of those books and stopped somewhere in one of the prequel house books (maybe Corrino? It was set like 30 years before Dune I think) because I just couldn't handle it any more, never picked up a new Dune book since. I'm not expecting Frank's writing style, his books are so effortless to read I could start them all again tomorrow and enjoy every minute, I'm only expecting competent writing, but these days.... in Hollywood... this is not a realistic expectation any more, and that is very sad.
THANK YOU! I don't think they even recall Brian's books at all. This show is for Brian Herbert Dune fans. 90% of their criticisms are elements adapted from Brian's books. Frankly I don't think a Frank Herbert Dune purist should bother watching or reviewing this show. It's practically pointless.
A despise Brian as much as the next person, but this show is leagues better than his writing. The characters are from his books. For sure. But, as open to criticism as this show is, it has moments of brilliance and I assure you those books have no soul.
They may block it somewhat, but they won't block the 50 tonne piece of building that is likely to have fallen on you and slowly pushed its way through the shield to crush you... slowly...
Desmond's cloths were fine after the explosion. So based on logic, the shield saved him. Unless they made a mistake... -To me, the orb was currency... A reward for his service- being a recording device makes more sense since it glows blue when he removes it, and Desmond says he needs proof.
I need to rewatch it, but was the orb not some kind of tool to record Valya to get the proof Desmond wants? *im still watching this stream so I apologize in advance if they bring this idea up*
@@erastourdenvern1 Right. I rewatched that part and being a recording device makes more sense since it glows blue when he removes it, and Desmond says he needs proof.
@@ThisOldChrisAgree. Desmond said that’s a start when referring to the intel about the underground markets but in order to clear his name, he’ll need more. And the way he kinda slid that over seemed to me that it was meant to help him get “more”.
Slow moving objects penetrate shields vis a vis the weirding way, ginaz etc shifting below slow and fast motion attacks. I feel like crumbling falling objects would slow to a near a stop and get through
Yep. You got it. The show jumped the shark during this scene for the reasons you stayed and for the stupid ass dialogue that followed right after it between Stooge 1 Makela talking to Stooge 2 Kiran. This scene alone killed my hope for a second season.
What i don't get about the genetic memory is that how can they have the memory after the genetic material separated? Like I can see having it up until the mother gives birth but it borders into mystical by having it up until the death bed
@theoldman5896 Then by that logic, all sci-fi is stupid. I can accept a conceit if the story is good, like Dune is. Frank clearly thought the species would be better if we could live longer lives. Genetic memory and Spice allowed him to explore that.
@@nicholashermes5023 not really. Some sci-fi takes advantage of alterations of basic physics or unknowns in physics - sometimes even outright *admitting* that the caveat is "psuedo-magical" in nature - but Genetic Memory is demonstrably not how genetics (a well understood science) works, unless of course humanity was extensively bio-engineered to be something entirely different on a fundamental level so that organisms could inherit countless lifetimes of raw data. So no, I'd say it's disingenuous to compare Genetic Memory to, say, element Zero from Mass Effect or something.
The issue you have with Lila’s possession I have an issue with lol. You’re asking for a “and then” approach to the mystery instead of a therefore. Lila’s awoke Raquelas memories and then gave us the answer. Instead of Lila awoke the memories therefore another question can be asked to move the story.
1:53:10 in Frank's world truthsaying, like imprinting or Missionaria Protectiva was a specialty of some sisters. All had some training in it, but there were true masters as well. Not all reverend mothers were truthsayers. in this iteration, on screen at least, it seems all BG are truthsayers, even before the take the agony.
I think you guys are missing something in the conversation- the way you read Dune and what you understand the story to be isn’t the only way. There is no “correct” way. When you see film and TV you’re seeing what a consensus of other artists thought the story was. As a second note, there is perceived doublespeak happening where youre all asking for more story at the same time you’re asking for tighter story. Which is a bit cognitively dissonant.
I might add that you’re often verging on blaming the creators for the limitations of the audience. Audiences at large aren’t obsessives peering into the minutia. The task of the creators is to deliver a story that functions within the general boundaries of the source material while being relatable and understandable to a broad audience. Without the audience there is no show.
Essentially Desmond is a wild Kwisatz Haderach. Just like the Reverend Mother's can psychically influence their own chemistry and Sorceresses of Rossal developed psychic attacks that destroy brains, Desmond has the ability to influence a benign disease found in most(but not all) human brains. The Bene Gesseritt saw him and wanted to create their own. Hopefully Quinn's history of sci-fi touches on Russian cosmism, which dramatically influenced the vast majority of 20th & 21st century sci-fi.
About the shields, yeah, sure the initial explosion will be blocked by the shield, but the slow, crushing weight of the rubble is gonna get you, right? And we kinda know heat transfers through gas exchange, so he’s gonna get cooked, and also all the oxygen is gonna get eaten up by the flames, so he’s gonna suffocate. Shields will only go so far.
19:26 I agree too, I think that's a major issue with dune prophecy - a lot of interesting things that don't pay off or aren't important enough. Theodosia being a face dancer, the hinted at tension between atreides and valya, house Corrino's many political maneuverings in a desperate play retain power - these were a few of the interesting stories the show tries to tell, but either won't give enough time or effort to adapt.
The fact that humans like Letho II can merge with the worm... Does that mean that the two species have something in common? Do the worms originate from Earth somehow? Also, the fact that The Spice has souch a deep impact on humans, doesn't that mean we have some genetics in common? If so, what is the origin? Are the sandworms a biological/ecological wepon gone rogue? Is it another wepon made by the machines? Or are they truly alien in origin?
I remain conflicted about this show. I love how we're see so much of the stranger elements of the lore, yet it often feels so cheap. it keeps giving me 90s network tv vibes in how it looks and how we keep returning to the same sets.
I read the Empress kissing Desmond as continuing the idea that Desmond is Rasputin (the hair, beard, coat, mystical powers). Could point to their direction if they get a second and third season
The shield scene; Canonically the Holtzman Effect covers a lot of ground - its essentially the weak atomic force writ large (in cannon its a 'hand wave' magitech concept). The repulsor effect, shields, and a couple of other things ( light generation and highliner stuff) its only real weakness is the las interaction - I certainly brought the shield scene as 'in-universe' and to me it was a cool 'member-berry' to the books and the movies ( I also got the sense that Desmond Hart was "Oh fuck! Mabey my shield?". What I'm not sure about is when Frank had them in the time line. - Brian has it emerge in the time of the Titans as the scrambler effect which I don't buy. I would buy it as an invention of a proto-mentat after the butlarian Jehad It I don't believe they existed during the Butlerian Jihad some time after, for Fank. Its ill defined. much like what the effect is capable of.
One reason the fremen might be more connected to the benegeserit could be because their practices originated from fremen culture (in this story). And since they are way closer to the origin point (which I think they are implying is that the fremen made the earliest iterations of the benegeserit) they have way more reverence for fremen people than they do in the main books.
May I politely ask, why would Dorotea’s immediate response would be to destroy sisterhood without understanding whats going on and who’s in charge? If my memory serves me right from reading the books, the other memories in Lila’s mind will be up until Dorotea gave birth to Lila. So the Dorotea in Lila’s memory will have no clue if her real self is alive or murdered by Valya. And we see the example of this - when Raquella from memories has no idea whether Valya and Dorotea have resolved their differences and asks this to Tula. So, I don’t think Quinn’s point is correct that Dorotea from Lila’s memory wants to immediately destroy the sisterhood. She might learn the reason of her death through Lila next season, so it could be a slow build up. Anyone else’s take on this?
The writing has been the weakest part of this show. The acting, the sets, the wardrobe, the cinematography. Everything has been so well put together that it is so jarring that the story itself has almost nothing to it. The show starts with this goal of the sisterhood being getting Nez to join them but it seems like it is not an essential part of the story anymore. Nez and the Atriedes swordsman(I can't be bothered to remember his name) are nothing characters that have almost no impact on the story at all. This show being 6 episodes is a shame because I don't think it will do well enough to get that 2nd season and there will be so many threads that went absolutely nowhere when it ends.
I'm waiting for you guys final verdict on whether I should jump into this show or not as someone who is only really a fan of the second movie but overall enjoying the story that's been laid out so far
This show is just a series of reveals, it's JJ Abrams mystery box crap, it's the laziest way to write one of these shows. There is no actual story here, this show isn't about anything. They took a box of Dune toys and built a plot with it, but it's not about anything. I was giving the show a chance until this episode, but it's clear to me now, it's just typical mystery box crap. I'm going to watch the final episode, and if it's not mind-blowing, I won't be back for season 2.
if u think the mystery about desmonds past/powers is cheap 'mystery box crap' then u don't understand character development because u just saw one reveal that influences two main characters (aka desmond and tula and how they're a parallel with constantine and francesca) and called it 'typical mystery box crap'.
AltShiftX please equalize your mic its really hard to hear you at times and then it peaks really loud at times when I turn it up to hear 5 seconds later I get ear blasted lol. Balance mic, apply compression, lower the peaking and turn volume up to keep it steady.
The acolytes leaving Wallach could have been to do with them being from families of the lancrad who just saw what Desmond did last episode and want their family members back
Agreed. The worst offender is whoever directed the Justice League though. They literally call their mystery box a "mother box" and it's as cringe as it sounds.
Well, just been saying out loud like 10 times while watching your great discussion. So thought I'd write it in the comments.That the sisterhood is still in early stages, and their cult is still under development. Inez was training with the sister and wants to go back. So they must have had some girls from noble houses, maybe this was how they paid the bills in the early stages of the sisterhood. That explains why they leave, at least the prep girls at the school.
Alt Shift X - We need more Dune vids on your page.
Agreed
Abridged
Concur
I second my concurred agreement
a favor de este comentario 👇
Mommy issues IN SPACE!
What a twist
Out of time... Out of place... Mommy issues in Spacecop.
Anakin Skywalker: NOOOOOO!!!!!
Valya has uncle issues😂
Tabu playing Francesca was the biggest surprise for me. Freaking TABU! One of the biggest actors from Bollywood! swoon. You just feel her screen presence the moment we see her.
I've never heard of her, but I could tell she has an incredible screen presence and power. Definitely happy she's in it.
❤❤❤ Yeah
Francesca has been around in the story! In the flashbacks she's one of the sisters who's close with Valya and composes her faction, played by Charithra Chandran.
Yeah... upon listening to the whole stream, I'm genuinely surprised that nobody came to the conclusion that the administrative messiness is the point. These philosophies and power structures that had matured 10 THOUSAND years by the main plot just lost their literal founders in living memory. It would be wildly unrealistic for an organization as sophisticated and dogmatic as the Benegesserit, or any fledgling organization, to mature by generation 2 or 3 and coast in their final form for 9,965 years. Things like abstract philosophical practices being rooted in very mundane, tangible consequence have real-world examples all over the place, from stigma against "unclean" animals to cleanliness rituals. None of that happens in a single generation
I can forgive some of what happens. A lot of it is just people being complete idiots though. Sure, they shouldn't be at the level they are by Dune, but they should be well on their way there. They should still be aware of their emotions and in control. That's what Truthsense is supposed to be essentially. They're aware of how emotions effect people and can use that to notice tiny changes in a person and tell if they're lying. If they have Truthsense, they must also be in some control of their own emotions.
39:30
@Cethinn while i understand the frustration of long-standing fans with certain expectations, the reason the Benegesserit are the force they are, and require what they do of Sisters, by the main time-line is specifically because they've had to test their training for milennia in a volatile political landscape that doesn't care about what they've been studying or how long they can hold their hands over flames in a quiet room. The results of ~50 years of study and practice vs. milennia of experience are objectively incomparable. Even then, the plot of the main story is about the absolutely catastrophic consequences of real life slightly deviating from an otherwise flawlessly* executed plan based on 10,000 years of applied theory and literally controlled down to the molecular level.
EXACTLY. They fail to understand this... they expect Paul's world at this time which is not even realistic or possible. Have of the stream is them ranting on this. Annoying really.
@@Cethinn We see they are in control or try to be in control but that these emotions overcome them. Also this show is for US, so we need to connect with them emotionally. If they were 1000% emotionless, we would care at all. In Dune we connect with Paul's emotions not with the BGst. We connect with Jessica because she fell into her emotions and did stupid stuff. Humanity at this time in the show is trying to overcome their emotions over the discipline. And you feel that. In 10 000 years into the future they are still fighting this (as we see with Jessica) but they are much better at it than they were now.
As a casual viewer I’m loving my favourite nerds complaining about a show I barely understand 🫶 thanks guys
I've watched (and read) a lot of Dune reviewers and content creators reflecting on Dune prophecy and I've formed the opinion that a lot of you are trapped within your knowledge of the future.
Yup. Sadly. It's not perfect, but it's hardly terrible. I've never held a literary work I love on such a pedestal that I need the adaptation to have absolute fidelity.
@Raymanta82 yes I love it when content creators are passionate about the things we all love but sometimes it gets in the way of appreciating new things. However I think this is a net positive good thing because if these show runners take feedback seriously, it could mean meaningful changes moving forward (assuming prophecy doesn't get canceled)
@@Tochi68 yeah. Plus the show only has 6 episodes and had a very difficult production process behind the scenes
I’m so glad you’re collaborating with NERD COOKIES. Love everyone’s insight!!
min 40:37. You forget constantly that this is the organization in THEIR INFANCY. So basically all the things that you suppose to be like in Paul's time havent come to that point yet. The sisterhood isnt still a cohersive exploitative organization yet. They are somehow but not quite so.
I think a lot of issues you guys have is about thinking that it is the Bene Gesserit. They are not yet! They are the "sisterhood", they are still learning, improving, changing. They still have 10.000 years of improvement to go through before becoming what we know in Paul's time.
They are not that powerful BG of original Dune's time, but they are already developed enough organisation. They have to have certain level of discipline. But in the show almost all acting too emotional. And it's actually fine to have some feelings because they are humans after all. But there's no development of acolytes. It doesn't show how sisters' path to acceptance of their duties, putting emotions aside.
@Haterbek the un-addressed, escalating schism at the ideological core of this "developed organization" resulted in the leader of the arguably more disciplined faction being murdered in a coup, and it didn't even work. She pulled herself from the abyss with the power of spite and dangerous contraband to reclaim her faction, which never actually went anywhere.
Even before Tula's genocide dumpster-baby decided to bring her the milk and cigarettes she went out for and microwave her sorority, I'm surprised they're keeping it together at all.
@@Haterbek They do have discipline but its obvious they haven't yet overcome the emotional aspect of humanity quite fully... that would be conquered 10 000 years into the future of perfectioning.
@@Alejojojo6 People keep saying this like BG is a person who acts differently according to age. But it is an organisation. And people in it spend equal amount of time on training no matter timeline it is. I mean that in Paul's time BG acolytes are trained from their childhood to overcome their humanity, and in Dune Prophecy's time they are trained from childhood to overcome their humanity. In future they will have develop skills and tools. But the idea of discipline, controlling emotions is already there. For an example, lets take the army in our world. In any era it is based on discipline. Any time in history they are all trained to do whatever their commanders say. Modern army has guns and other technologies and shit. 1000 years ago people had swords. Bit in both times if soldiers shows disobedience he gets punished. So in Dune universe it has to be the same.
💯 agree. The point of the show would be showing them develop, but we all know streamers just cancel everything adt 1-2 seasons so I think they've done really well considering all the factors at play.
On the point about Natalia kissing Desmond, I didn't take it as just the petty "feeling jilted so I'll get even" sort of thing. I took it as "I can control a powerful man with sex and encouragement too, and my control over a powerful man might trump yours, Francesca".
The reveal of Desmond’s heritage wasn’t supposed to be big in revealing the source of his powers or anything, or a connection to Paul (though obviously it does reference that), it was supposed to be big in regards to the character drama in that he’s Tula’s child.
I also feel like Raquella’s discovery of the retrovirus was also supposed to reveal a bit more about Desmond’s “power” than it really made explicit. In the show they said that it was the amygdala where the damage started, and I assume that means the fire damage - that somehow he’s got some aura of some kind that he can activate to hyper accelerate the affect of the virus, which could very well lead to a massive increase of heat, as almost all biological processes are exothermic, producing excess heat and, say, increasing a virus’ replication 50-100x or something could very well lead to ignition.
@@firpishable i always thought of it as some kind of nano tech that he can (somewhat) control
I know no one will see this, but the presenters assuming class presence gets more equal over time is hilariously under researched and misunderstood. The idea that the acolytes would have a harder time getting off world, or that trans-world travel would be more expensive earlier in the timeline ignores every trend of cost and consolidation of power of every society in actual history. This universe just fought a rebellion against powers who controlled everything. Things have not hashed out. Power inevitably files further into the hands of the powerful, but we’re only several hundred years away from a literal apocalypse. Suggesting it’s harder for the poor acolytes to fund something like interplanetary travel now than it would be 10,000 years from now is dumb.
@@jaysun4069entirely possible. I’ve considered that, too.
@firpishable idk dude. It used to be impossible for regular working class people to fly anywhere. Now we holiday anywhere we want. I guess your point is wrong there 😊
"Desmond Hart really said, ‘Why not BOTH bloodlines?’ Plot twists hitting harder than spice withdrawals!
There is something wrong with ALT SHIFT X's microphone. The sound equalization is off as it is incredibly boomy to listen to and the volume drops all the time. It's hard to listen to.
Yeah, same as last time 🫣
And the time before as well as Quinn seems like he's practicing ASMR perhaps Elaine can teach them both
I'd say X's mic gain is heavily compressed.
1:36:50 Keiran leaves in a rush, that's why he leaves that on his wardrobe. We see him being interrupted and leaving quickly forgetting it there.
01:11:15 in the first or second episode Mother Raquella says the point of their DNA index is to breed "better leaders for the imperium..." Better, imo, is implied as more susceptible to the Sisterhoods' influence.
Always enjoyed your Dune videos through the years, especially the ones where you summarize the books. You really drive the themes home with your readings and voicings of characters. 👍🏼👍🏼
I didn’t read the kiss between Natalya and Desmond as romantic. He basically just got done explaining his mother-induced trauma to her; Natalya likely sees this as an opportunity to gain power and control over Desmond by taking on a motherly role, even if a bit twisted. She’s more like the sisterhood than she would care to admit.
The kiss is also reminiscent of the kiss between Baron Harkonnen and Feyd when he is awarded governorship over Arrakis in Dune: Part Two - there is an element of sealing a pact, “let us rid this universe of these witches forever.”
Why cant you all have the same audio volume level? WHY? 😭😭😭
Lmfao
It ruinx the time
So true😊
FR
48:18 in Frank’s books, *spice = oil* … therefore it was always about “control” and outsiders coming in and subjugating the native people in order to profit/benefit from this extremely rare and valuable resource.
This decade is dedicated to DUNE lore and I am loving it!!!!!!!!
I agree with you guys about the Desmond "reveal". I think sci-fi and fantasy stories do this a lot, where being part of the "cool/special" bloodline becomes the characters whole thing. With Paul and Jessica it makes sense, but with Desmond it doesn't really answer any questions..
For Harrow and the orb…It’s probably just a recording device?
The shield saved him, why are we fighting that? The lore tells you that's how it works in this universe.
I’m loving these collaborations!!!
33:10 the actress did a excellent job of “channeling” Raquella… an older, wiser, founder of the Bene Gesuit. The difference between her and Lila was clear.
She also vaguely mimicked Raquellas slightly northern English accent which is what initially really bought it to life for me!!
Setting it up nicely for a flashback conversation between Vorian and Agamenom. Lovely. We always knew the Atreides were inherently effed up Tyrants.
I don't quite understand simultaneously disliking Desmond's power for not being grounded in science AND being too grounded in science. I also, to a lesser degree don't really get where it got lost that the Sisterhood is obviously a struggling organization in its infancy, 30 years after a coup murder.
But then why are they the most trusted in the universe, with a truthsayer in every house and in the ear of every Baron and Duke? It feels like they really should be an underground organization at this time, growing slowly and spreading fingers out to push the buttons in power. It's a bit confusing in current form, much like the prequel books.
Desmond's power just seems somehow off I guess, so that's why people dislike it. I personally don't really care so far, so you have a point.
But I disagree with an excuse that BG is in its infancy. Yes, they are obviously not that powerful organisation as in Paul's time. But they are not completely new organisation neither. Their goal and ideology like "sisterhood above all" are already established. It's fine to have problems with getting influence over the great houses, how exactly should they act. But it is not an excuse for them to act that emotional. Both in this time and 10k years after all the sisters spend equal amount of time in training. In future they will have more skills, but controlling emotions is already what they are taught in Dune Prophecy's time. But they are just too much disobedient, too emotional. But the main problem for me is that show doesn't work on it at all. I would even buy them being so disobedient, if writers showed how they evolve from doubting acolytes and sisters to women who understand what they are doing and what does it cost. It's a prequel after all. Why don't they focus on how they become that dedicated to the cause, ruthless and cynical organisation.
@Haterbek Real human beings, even those who are well versed in the theory behind technique and discipline, don't actually know how they'll perform until they face what they've been training for and are confronted with real consequences for failure. At this point in the show the Sisterhood is still in the middle of what seems to be the first real trial with adversity from the outside that can't be immediately stamped out with truthsense and reconnaissance, the only skills they currently have practical experience applying. Their lessons, exercises and hypotheticals aren't worthless, true. Still, everything until this point, _especially_ for the acolytes, has been fundamentally untested training in a largely controlled environment. Training at the level some viewers expect would render The Agony a wildly unnecessary risk that arguably violates their beliefs about the sanctity of the mind, for results that could just have been written down and studied.
@@hitskwaadThank you! Dorotea's schism is still very much alive and well.
In Brian's books, Raquella was a member of the sorceresses of rossak(some of whom had telekinesis). Raquella herself was able to manipulate molecules with her mind. Desmond's powers aren't that far fetched if one reads the Brian Herbert Dune books
I think Jen is just immune to the Omnius virus, giving the Sisterhood the key to inoculating against it.
15:20 if you're still questioning how he survived on the ship:
With his shield on, any falling debris would be falling too fast to penetrate the shield and crush Desmond. So his shield protected him from the explosion and debris.
I think their argument is that any falling debris would have, yes, fallen fast, but then what? A large piece of building is resting on a shield that lets slow things penetrate... you are 100% going to be crushed by whatever is on top of you within 30 seconds.
Also it seems to explosion was still strong enough to "overload" his shield - hence why he's not shielded anymore when he wakes up, or we'd see the blue distortion everytime he touched something afterwards.
Debris landing on him might be too fast for a moment maybe, but once it's sitting on top of him it'd go through and he'd be crushed. It can stop a quick impact. It can't stop a force slowly pushing in. It's just plot armor. He just didn't die because the story needed him alive.
@@Cethinn I mean you also don't see any debris on him.
You can call it plot armor that he was lucky as shit he only got hit by the explosion (which the shield could absorb) and was not burried in rubbles - but the logic is sound, and him being that fucking lucky (and admitting it himself), helps make him into this weird messiah figure to the empress and all --
I'm not denying I thought that was a bit contrived there, but it's also not there just for shits and giggles, there's a point to all of this I'd wager.
@@abynighteater5670 I really doubt there's a point to him just being incredibly lucky, unless they just don't understand the universe. He shouldn't have made it out of there unless he did something to earn it. Yeah, no rubble fell on him, but it's not like that explains anything. How did rubble not fall on him. Plot armor is a term used to describe writers just making characters survive stupid situations without explaining why. That's what this is. It's poorly written and contrived.
Francesca is one of Valya’s friends from the earlier eps. She has a few lines but she’s part of Valya’s crew. Valya uses the voice to make them slap each other.
She placed all her friends in key positions around the emperor, Francesca as the imprinter/concubine and Kasha as his truthsayer. She’s had him under control for a very long time, no wonder the Queen is so pissed!
Has this season earned a second season for me? Yes. Hopefully the network gives the show more money, more episodes, and more time to write
Francesca was introduced as valyas friend from thier childhood that’s why she reacts that way to kashas death
Bravo. Idky someone wouldn't catch that. Both their names are stated in the flashbacks.
The explosions didn’t bring the building down on him. These were small grenades designed for room clearing, not bringing down buildings. And they were spread throughout the rooms of the building, in a way that would be disruptive, but not cause serious structural failure.
So the shields just needed to protect him from the initial series of explosions, with things being thrown around rather than secondaries with things falling down.
This is cope.
1:12:42 well said! It really does feel like the primary Sisterhood drama is born from a really bad boss who doesn’t communicate her plans to the workers.
Cant wait till Ryan George does a pitch meeting of this show.
35:30 "fear is the mind killer... literally", "this is so midichlorians" lmaoooo 🤣 (edit: and I agree with cookies, it's much worse than midichlorians which I don't even mind in star wars)
Awesome collab. Even though the show isnt great. Not bad but not great. Always good to hear Quinns and Alt Shift X's opinion.
Nerd cookies too??!! So dope
Alt Shift X having a quote ready on deck like that for the shields working on projectiles is why he’s the best
21:57 The notion that the shift from magical thinking to rational thinking is connected to Protestantism is a modern myth restricted to the Anglosphere (even if you only focus on the origins of sci-fi). As a born atheist coming from a traditionally Catholic-majority country, I wasn't even aware of it until I started reading books in English, and it was interesting to explore its origins and the cultural biases it is rooted in.
The notion originated among 19th century British and American elites after the Enlightenment. They saw this false contrast between the backwards folk religion of Catholic immigrants and the rationality of the intellectuals of their own class (superimposed on the changing fortunes of Catholic and Protestant colonial empires at the time), which ignored both backwards Protestant folk religion (which evolved into the Evangelicals who are destroying the US at the moment) and cultural elites in Catholic countries (above all the French Enlightenment; but also the reactionary but very much _reasoning_ Counter-Reformation writers and orators people in the US & UK know almost nothing about, except maybe for the Jesuits).
At its origin, Protestantism was a form of popular back-to-the-roots fundamentalism, and it quickly evolved very fundamentalist and fanatic forms (very much like earlier movements branded "heretic"). The witch hunts weren't restricted to Catholicism at all (just read up on how Kepler had to save his own mother). Since Protestantism wasn't as top-down as Catholicism, this even led to internal conflict. What gave rationalism a real chance wasn't Protestantism, but the fizzling out of the Protestant vs. Catholic religious wars without a clear winner, and the resulting disillusionment in religious authority in a significant subset of both the population and the elites, even if independent thinking still faced severe repression.
In Catholic-majority countries, the road from the 30 Years' War to Enlightenment was more revolutionary. In the Anglosphere, the key event was the English Civil War, which didn't end just with the defeat of Catholics, but the banishment of the most extreme Protestants to the Americas (known in US collective memory as the "persecution" of the Pilgrims). There were further steps in moderation both in Britain (where Cromwell's still pretty hardcore fundamentalist followers were sidelined after his death) and the Colonies (where the Salem witch trials taught some people different lessons).
You find plenty of logic in 15th century and 16th century Catholic Dominated Italy. You find logic developments from St. Thomas Aquinas, or England's John Wycliffe in the 1300's. Seeing as how universities are established several centuries before the Protestant schisms of Martin Luther, even under jesuit teaching, I was never informed of any myth that rational thinking magically popped up in 1517.
@@Shamino1 Certainly not under the Jesuits as they were established in 1540 🙂
Reading about High Middle Age heretical movements, it's striking how much they resemble later Protestants: popular preachers and their followers whom the feudal elite and/or the Church come to see as a threat. What made it impossible to put the Protestant genie back in the bottle the same way as every time before (though the Hussites came pretty damn close) was the spread of the printing press and reading among commoners, expanding the reach of the popular preachers.
Counter-Reformation is something Dune readers should appreciate as a diabolical long-term strategy (with the Jesuits acting with a hidden agenda like the Bene Gesserit). While for in the Anglosphere, the word "Counter-Reformation" might only recall the suppression of big thinkers like Galileo Galilei or Giordano Bruno by the Inquisition and bloody finales like the extermination of the Huguenots in France, the ground was often laid with decades-long soft power campaigns, using well-educated preachers who could sway the masses and feudal lords alike and hold their own against Protestant preachers, new orders providing public and private general education, and other new orders providing public healthcare - all of them relying at least in appearances on the new rational and scientific paradigms.
Very interesting! Thanks for this comment.
No one says that, and I didn't say that either. In fact, in this actual stream, I bring up natural philosophy as a precursor to modern science. @Shamino1
This was a strange one, felt so off from the other episodes I think all this plot armor and Brian stuff is starting to ruin the story
Raquella shouldn't have the memories of her death bed. Fro what I remember of other memory, it's the memories of the mother up until the point of conception where it gets genetically imprinted. It's only when reverend mothers start sharing their memories that they really start building up. But this version of Raquella, if it is her, should only have the memories that each prior maternal parent had at the point of their kid's conception.
it's possible she died prior to lila's birth.
I never got this argument bc it ignores the fact that male memories can be accessed as well, though a rare feat, it's still possible, so how would u get their memories if they never gave birth?
This show suffers from the same problem nearly all modern shows suffer from. Short seasons.
How do you fully flesh out characters and storylines when you only have 6 episodes? Some characters are well fleshed out, but some others we haven't spent enough time with, and sadly, we only have one ep left.
I'd love for this show to get another season despite it's issues but I'm unsure if it will.
1:35:13 yea the knife scene was so dumb. Like you could've had the same effect by having him say "i recognize those moves" instead of a knife that makes no sense to keep.
Yeah, she's playing the role of rebel who's also a smuggler, who's playing the role of a bartender. It'd be expected for her to have some way to defend herself. Why wouldn't she just have some normal knife? It makes less than no sense. It's actively against what should be expected.
They specifically referenced House Harkonnen as a "lesser house"
This isn’t dune. This is Brian Herbert. Stop expecting his dads writing style
hate Brian so much
Not a fan of BH and haven't been a fan of KJA since he wrote the most boringest star wars books back in my high school days, I was so disappointed to see it was him of all people that was bringing the new books to life, but I gave them a chance, and just like Star Wars, they got super gross with the violence and gore and everything felt military and forced... I still read maybe 5 of those books and stopped somewhere in one of the prequel house books (maybe Corrino? It was set like 30 years before Dune I think) because I just couldn't handle it any more, never picked up a new Dune book since.
I'm not expecting Frank's writing style, his books are so effortless to read I could start them all again tomorrow and enjoy every minute, I'm only expecting competent writing, but these days.... in Hollywood... this is not a realistic expectation any more, and that is very sad.
THANK YOU! I don't think they even recall Brian's books at all. This show is for Brian Herbert Dune fans. 90% of their criticisms are elements adapted from Brian's books.
Frankly I don't think a Frank Herbert Dune purist should bother watching or reviewing this show. It's practically pointless.
A despise Brian as much as the next person, but this show is leagues better than his writing. The characters are from his books. For sure. But, as open to criticism as this show is, it has moments of brilliance and I assure you those books have no soul.
heat wud have melted desmond. shields dont block heat
It's "would."
They may block it somewhat, but they won't block the 50 tonne piece of building that is likely to have fallen on you and slowly pushed its way through the shield to crush you... slowly...
@justinklenk he has a point though. Initial blast, sure, but heat and linger weight of rubble would get through the shield. Slow-baked Desmond.
The Fremen and Tleilaxu have the same religious roots. With Theo a face dancer and Mikeala on Arrakis next year, this sets up Messiah and beyond.
Should have said, “need to end because I’m about to get a knock on the door, I’ll open the door and they will see me there staring back at them.”
Desmond's cloths were fine after the explosion. So based on logic, the shield saved him. Unless they made a mistake...
-To me, the orb was currency... A reward for his service- being a recording device makes more sense since it glows blue when he removes it, and Desmond says he needs proof.
I need to rewatch it, but was the orb not some kind of tool to record Valya to get the proof Desmond wants?
*im still watching this stream so I apologize in advance if they bring this idea up*
@@erastourdenvern1 Right. I rewatched that part and being a recording device makes more sense since it glows blue when he removes it, and Desmond says he needs proof.
@@ThisOldChrisAgree. Desmond said that’s a start when referring to the intel about the underground markets but in order to clear his name, he’ll need more. And the way he kinda slid that over seemed to me that it was meant to help him get “more”.
Slow moving objects penetrate shields vis a vis the weirding way, ginaz etc shifting below slow and fast motion attacks. I feel like crumbling falling objects would slow to a near a stop and get through
Yep. You got it. The show jumped the shark during this scene for the reasons you stayed and for the stupid ass dialogue that followed right after it between Stooge 1 Makela talking to Stooge 2 Kiran. This scene alone killed my hope for a second season.
I thought “Francesca” was Latina at first… until I heard her accent 😍
> Casting of the Emperor
He's bald and Strong, just like the Emperor has to be!
doesnt the genetic memory transfers only up to the point of cenception of the baby? How could the raquella know anything about the death bed scene?
Quinn and Elaine are the finest Dune scholars on TH-cam. 🏆
The only way to get Desmond to leave the palace was to give up the rebels.
What i don't get about the genetic memory is that how can they have the memory after the genetic material separated? Like I can see having it up until the mother gives birth but it borders into mystical by having it up until the death bed
Agree, in the books it's not like that, it's clearly the parents memory until birth or conception.
These writers don't know what they are doing, that's the reason
Genetic Memory was *always* stupid, even in Frank's novels. It would have to be "magical" in order to make any real sense.
@theoldman5896 Then by that logic, all sci-fi is stupid. I can accept a conceit if the story is good, like Dune is. Frank clearly thought the species would be better if we could live longer lives. Genetic memory and Spice allowed him to explore that.
@@nicholashermes5023 not really. Some sci-fi takes advantage of alterations of basic physics or unknowns in physics - sometimes even outright *admitting* that the caveat is "psuedo-magical" in nature - but Genetic Memory is demonstrably not how genetics (a well understood science) works, unless of course humanity was extensively bio-engineered to be something entirely different on a fundamental level so that organisms could inherit countless lifetimes of raw data.
So no, I'd say it's disingenuous to compare Genetic Memory to, say, element Zero from Mass Effect or something.
Can anyone else see Harrow Harkonnen informing on his aunt to get the Harkonnen house into a better position?
The issue you have with Lila’s possession I have an issue with lol. You’re asking for a “and then” approach to the mystery instead of a therefore. Lila’s awoke Raquelas memories and then gave us the answer. Instead of Lila awoke the memories therefore another question can be asked to move the story.
1:53:10 in Frank's world truthsaying, like imprinting or Missionaria Protectiva was a specialty of some sisters. All had some training in it, but there were true masters as well. Not all reverend mothers were truthsayers. in this iteration, on screen at least, it seems all BG are truthsayers, even before the take the agony.
I think you guys are missing something in the conversation- the way you read Dune and what you understand the story to be isn’t the only way. There is no “correct” way. When you see film and TV you’re seeing what a consensus of other artists thought the story was. As a second note, there is perceived doublespeak happening where youre all asking for more story at the same time you’re asking for tighter story. Which is a bit cognitively dissonant.
I might add that you’re often verging on blaming the creators for the limitations of the audience. Audiences at large aren’t obsessives peering into the minutia. The task of the creators is to deliver a story that functions within the general boundaries of the source material while being relatable and understandable to a broad audience. Without the audience there is no show.
Essentially Desmond is a wild Kwisatz Haderach. Just like the Reverend Mother's can psychically influence their own chemistry and Sorceresses of Rossal developed psychic attacks that destroy brains, Desmond has the ability to influence a benign disease found in most(but not all) human brains. The Bene Gesseritt saw him and wanted to create their own.
Hopefully Quinn's history of sci-fi touches on Russian cosmism, which dramatically influenced the vast majority of 20th & 21st century sci-fi.
About the shields, yeah, sure the initial explosion will be blocked by the shield, but the slow, crushing weight of the rubble is gonna get you, right? And we kinda know heat transfers through gas exchange, so he’s gonna get cooked, and also all the oxygen is gonna get eaten up by the flames, so he’s gonna suffocate. Shields will only go so far.
19:26 I agree too, I think that's a major issue with dune prophecy - a lot of interesting things that don't pay off or aren't important enough.
Theodosia being a face dancer, the hinted at tension between atreides and valya, house Corrino's many political maneuverings in a desperate play retain power - these were a few of the interesting stories the show tries to tell, but either won't give enough time or effort to adapt.
The fact that humans like Letho II can merge with the worm... Does that mean that the two species have something in common? Do the worms originate from Earth somehow? Also, the fact that The Spice has souch a deep impact on humans, doesn't that mean we have some genetics in common?
If so, what is the origin? Are the sandworms a biological/ecological wepon gone rogue? Is it another wepon made by the machines?
Or are they truly alien in origin?
I'd like to hear some architectutal commentary about "Dune: HBO". On nearly every planet we visit, the buildings are uniformly Brutalist.
I remain conflicted about this show. I love how we're see so much of the stranger elements of the lore, yet it often feels so cheap. it keeps giving me 90s network tv vibes in how it looks and how we keep returning to the same sets.
Nah dood, we need a reason for the fear litany just like we needed to know where Han Solo got his blaster, it's sooo important!
I cried butterfly tears! IT BROKE NEW GROUND!
@@bobhoskins-kl6ue go away, nobody cares for your drivel
I read the Empress kissing Desmond as continuing the idea that Desmond is Rasputin (the hair, beard, coat, mystical powers). Could point to their direction if they get a second and third season
Great stream, and thanks to guests for joining the fun. Love me some alt shift x and nerdcookies
The shield scene; Canonically the Holtzman Effect covers a lot of ground - its essentially the weak atomic force writ large (in cannon its a 'hand wave' magitech concept). The repulsor effect, shields, and a couple of other things ( light generation and highliner stuff) its only real weakness is the las interaction - I certainly brought the shield scene as 'in-universe' and to me it was a cool 'member-berry' to the books and the movies ( I also got the sense that Desmond Hart was "Oh fuck! Mabey my shield?". What I'm not sure about is when Frank had them in the time line. - Brian has it emerge in the time of the Titans as the scrambler effect which I don't buy. I would buy it as an invention of a proto-mentat after the butlarian Jehad It I don't believe they existed during the Butlerian Jihad some time after, for Fank. Its ill defined. much like what the effect is capable of.
One reason the fremen might be more connected to the benegeserit could be because their practices originated from fremen culture (in this story). And since they are way closer to the origin point (which I think they are implying is that the fremen made the earliest iterations of the benegeserit) they have way more reverence for fremen people than they do in the main books.
May I politely ask, why would Dorotea’s immediate response would be to destroy sisterhood without understanding whats going on and who’s in charge? If my memory serves me right from reading the books, the other memories in Lila’s mind will be up until Dorotea gave birth to Lila. So the Dorotea in Lila’s memory will have no clue if her real self is alive or murdered by Valya. And we see the example of this - when Raquella from memories has no idea whether Valya and Dorotea have resolved their differences and asks this to Tula. So, I don’t think Quinn’s point is correct that Dorotea from Lila’s memory wants to immediately destroy the sisterhood. She might learn the reason of her death through Lila next season, so it could be a slow build up. Anyone else’s take on this?
@QuinnsIdeas
yall need to talk into the friggin MIC
Hyped for the finale !!!
As i understand Lila is the daughter of Dorothea and the granddaughter of Raquella and the grand-grand or 3x granddaughter of Vorian.
The writing has been the weakest part of this show. The acting, the sets, the wardrobe, the cinematography. Everything has been so well put together that it is so jarring that the story itself has almost nothing to it.
The show starts with this goal of the sisterhood being getting Nez to join them but it seems like it is not an essential part of the story anymore. Nez and the Atriedes swordsman(I can't be bothered to remember his name) are nothing characters that have almost no impact on the story at all.
This show being 6 episodes is a shame because I don't think it will do well enough to get that 2nd season and there will be so many threads that went absolutely nowhere when it ends.
Is this the same episode I was watching? I actually enjoyed it. I enjoy Quinn's videos, I probably won't check out the others.
Question.. what happens to spice when it explodes?? Seeing that he was in the attic surrounded by it at the time
I'm waiting for you guys final verdict on whether I should jump into this show or not as someone who is only really a fan of the second movie but overall enjoying the story that's been laid out so far
22:00 interesting discussion of the history of sci-fi with respect to the Protestant reformation
This show is just a series of reveals, it's JJ Abrams mystery box crap, it's the laziest way to write one of these shows. There is no actual story here, this show isn't about anything. They took a box of Dune toys and built a plot with it, but it's not about anything. I was giving the show a chance until this episode, but it's clear to me now, it's just typical mystery box crap.
I'm going to watch the final episode, and if it's not mind-blowing, I won't be back for season 2.
if u think the mystery about desmonds past/powers is cheap 'mystery box crap' then u don't understand character development because u just saw one reveal that influences two main characters (aka desmond and tula and how they're a parallel with constantine and francesca) and called it 'typical mystery box crap'.
AltShiftX please equalize your mic its really hard to hear you at times and then it peaks really loud at times when I turn it up to hear 5 seconds later I get ear blasted lol. Balance mic, apply compression, lower the peaking and turn volume up to keep it steady.
the uniform and the knife moment were both eye rollers
He survived due to shield. Works for me
The anti,-colonial reading is easily the most important and deepest reading, only a brainwashed westerner would say is not deep enough.
> Spice colour
Well, it's pretty obvious. In alkaline medium, spice is blue, in acidic - orange.
Great podcast except alt needs to adjust that sound somehow
Hype
The acolytes leaving Wallach could have been to do with them being from families of the lancrad who just saw what Desmond did last episode and want their family members back
21:33 Quinn goes hot sci fi. luv it! magi happens. soooo deep!
He was rescued by ixians, not letting that go
28:57 Mystery Boxes are tropes weak writers use to keep audiences coming back. Thank JJ “Hack” Abrams…
Agreed. The worst offender is whoever directed the Justice League though. They literally call their mystery box a "mother box" and it's as cringe as it sounds.
Well, just been saying out loud like 10 times while watching your great discussion. So thought I'd write it in the comments.That the sisterhood is still in early stages, and their cult is still under development.
Inez was training with the sister and wants to go back. So they must have had some girls from noble houses, maybe this was how they paid the bills in the early stages of the sisterhood. That explains why they leave, at least the prep girls at the school.
The sisters are lying to the acolytes just to let them believe they can leave.
this is starting to feel fanficcy.
Nah
Appreciate the effort but fix the audio levels. This 2 hour gem is a rollercoaster.
shifty please turn volume louder next time or talk closer to mic ❤
Thank!
Unreal