The emperor is so poor he cant afford a jail, just puts all his prisoners floating around together where they can chat and scheme to their hearts content.
The switch from 'Sisterhood above all' to 'Sisters above all' was a really nice subtle touch. Especially since, even with that, there still wasn't the actual trust (and likely properly so)
The conversation Valya had with the emperor in the throne room when she decimated his ego is similar to the scene Frank Herbert wrote in Dune between Jessica & Thufur Hawat. The specific scene when Jessica confronts Thufur when he suspected her of being the traitor. Jessica does the same thing and ends the confrontation with “ now you understand the true power of the Bene Jesserit”.
I love that scene in the book because it shows how even the most logical of people, mentats, are susceptible to emotional manipulation, by their own hand or by someone like Jessica’s hand. Logic and emotion go hand in hand.
The plan seemed to be like: Valya breaks Ynez out of jail, Theo-Ynez takes the Princess's place in jail. Valya and Ynez run away to Arrakis, Theo-Ynez remains jailed at the Palace. Ynez demanded Keiran to be released as well. After that, there wasn't really any point in keeping Theo in jail as Ynez. No one was going to believe she was left behind while Atreides was taken. And, well, no one really stopped and thought about it for 15 seconds on what to do next, so they still left Theo behind, and she improvised a bad plan to stab Desmond Hart.
I still don’t like that everyone was throwing out “Shai Hulud” and “the Maker” - it’s a Fremen belief system. The BG shouldn’t be speaking about it like they believe it.
Was this the Fremen belief system in Brian Herbert's work 10,000 years before events of Paul Atreides etc? I haven't read so I don't know. Would be interesting if it was a belief held by sisterhood first and then worked into Fremen belief?
@@PatrickGannthat’s kinda how I see it. If anything, the scene with Tula teaching Valya to embrace the fear as she sees the worm coming to her in the trance/nightmare could theoretically signal that they will embrace this as the prophecy to be told. A reclamation of the nightmare.
Thank you for thorough well thought out commentary unlike most other channels on Dune Prophecy have been, I've become a huge fan of yours from all of this and have really appreciated yours and your cohosts thoughts on all this.
Every single one of these nitpicks can be explained. For example, they DO show the combat prowess of the sisterhood through Valya and Theodosia several times. Mikayla also shows her combat skills at the bar. Also Theodosia takes the guards appearance because without Kieran, imitating the Princess is unrealistic. empress Natalya helping bring the emprie together is mentioned several times and the first mention is in the first episode.
The desert scenes were filmed in Jordan, in actual nature, to the point that the Solar eclipse we see in the film just happened while they were there, so they included it in the movie superposed onto itself. It's in the far south of Jordan, so it should be safe to use the place again, even if surrounded by a dozen wars, they would be about 150km from the nearest battle zone.
"Choose", "not a clear command." Balderdash. Valya used the command to specify that if they couldn't follow her, that they needed to "leave" the sisterhood. Pretty clear.
The Jabico/Francesca storyline hit some for me, but I know it would have hit harder if they had more screentime. Plenty of this first season's faults can be pointed to a lack of episodes and budget. For God Emperor's sake, please let there be more budget and more episodes for season 2!
Apparently "Secure the palace" does not include immediately finding the Emperor and making sure he's safe. So much derp in this episode. The Facedancer is supposed to imitate the Princess to buy them time but changes immediately to an injured guard, then proceed to stab her target in the side instead of the neck or chest. Also the princess and the swordmaster bossing their way through a dozen elite guards - I hate this trope.
I really liked the choice to use the word “choose” when they killed all the other sisters. I think it showed that they believed in their morals and ideas so much that they would rather die than follow Valya. Also the creators said they didn’t want it to become a meme if they just said “kill yourself” or something like that. Which I can understand.
I agree - it really shows the depth and degree of the schism - that they're so entrenched with Dorotea's ideas that yeah, given the choice to follow Valya or suicide like Dorotea, her followers are so cult-gone they choose death. Valya gives them a choice, but all but one are so committed to Dorotea's cause, they cannot help but be true to that cause. It was way more brilliant a plot choice than any other option.
I enjoyed the last 3 episodes a lot but I’m a sucker for some weird sci-fi. I’m glad we are getting a second season because weird sci-fi shows rarely last very long. Agreed with most of your predictions especially that the eyes were not the god emperor. No way they introduce him in the show before the movies but that’s definitely something they wanted you to think.
My overall issue is that Frank Herbert was a visionary thinker and writer about the human condition, Brian Herbert is not. I could not finish Brian Herberts books because, in my own amateur opinion, he just doesn't understand the themes of his father's work. Brian has made a name from trying to write fan fiction to explain subtle but complex concepts. For example, the litany against fear gets explained in the show as a defense against a machine virus as opposed to a concept that Frank was trying to impart that our inability to control our emotions and fears leads to societal problems and weakness. The Bene Geseritt are meant to be elite philosophers who have pushed human ability to its upmost limit. They harness their bodies and minds to accomplish amazing things both politically and physically. The litany was the written equivalent of showing but not telling how far they have pushed themselves. The show is much more Brian than Frank which is why I'm disappointed. An example in the show is how Dorataia (no idea if this is spelled right), visits the site of her murder and recovers her memories of her death...what... in Frank Herberts books they are accessing genetic memories, not ghost memories. Dorataia's genetic memories end at the conception of her daughter or granddaughter. They're not psychically linked. At the moment I feel that the Dune movies are a little closer to Franks concepts but we'll see with Messiah.
I blame the shield inconsistency purely on editing. You can see in scenes like when Valya cuts the first soldier that she is slow in her movement. But in a lot of other scenes they simply fail to properly show that the blade moves slowly. Also, it seems from the visual effect that Desmond had a different shield. Everyone else wears a shield just like in the movie. The effect on his shield before the explosion seemed different.
like its not a perfect show but this last ep was enough like dune vibes kind of- and I like Valya’s drama to be hooked for however many seasons they go for
It's really kind of like a rollercoaster that only gives the illusion of a good time. Just when you think you're going to enjoy the thrill of going down the drop, it simply coasts into another station, where you have to exit the ride and wait in line for the rest of it - which they’re still building.
True, but the pacing has improved very much so I'll allow having to queue up for future episodes -- that's a hallmark of series that get renewed. /cross fingers.
Also, I LOVED the shift in Valya’s takedown of Javicco. As opposed to a crude command with use of the voice like in the past, she brought a reserved, intelligent weapon of precision. It was beautiful. She covered the bases and snookered Francesca in a swift singular move.
I found the show to be a mixed bag. There were parts I wish we could see more of. Like the BG training...show us more of that. The spice agony. I wish we'd get to see a bit of what is going on inside Lila's head whenever one of the other personalities take over. Show a bit more of the Emperor's background with Francesca and Natalya. Basically the show lacked depth. The concepts are there but apart from Tula none of the other characters really have an arc. She's the one who goes from supporting her sister to doubting her to the past where she chose to give up her son. At least she has some motivation that makes sense. But again this was shown in like only the very last two episodes otherwise she was just roaming the BG halls and looking confused half the time The six episode structure is also horrible. They need at least 8. In fact I would 10 is best so we get to flesh out the characters more. Like I can't even tell the acolytes apart expect for 2 or 3 of them. It's just undercooked Hopefully season 2 improves on the pitfalls they had this time around
@ewarrior9776 Initially yes but then Tula put her in a tank of spice and we never see what happened only Lila randomly breaking out of it They could have had a scene of her revival in the spice tank with her eyes changing to the classic blue on blue Every personality switch after that point is because of the spice she had inhaled in the tank. They could have still showed how the switches were happening
I wish they gave us some of the politics so we could care about the emperor or the rebellion or the sisters. I have no idea who the emperor was, or what he did, that made people dislike him aside from the fact that he was in power.
The last episode was breathtaking and touched me deeply on an emotional level in several scenes. The most poignant moment was when Tula had to give up her baby. As a mother, this was incredibly hard for me to watch-what a sacrifice. And in the end, her son was exploited by others and denied the peaceful life Tula had dreamed of for him…
The thing about Theodosia, she changed the plan and chose to not do what Valya told her. You can tell it was her decision to change into the soldier not the princess.
changed the plan and it was ultra stupid. I mean it could be good if she actually killed Desmond, but seriously imagine that face dancer/bene gesserit cant even stab trough the heart
I can be critical of things I don't like while overall I really liked the show. Better than the book. The sisters nailed performance. I don't like hearing"Shai Halud," face dancer's death, there needed to be more episodes and every plot at some point had to be shoe horned into another to make it work. Valya has the right ruthlessness but need better calculation
Yes - I think that she found out something about her followers from her research. Maybe she was lying when she said the records were erased or found a secret place where the records were held.
Quinn, in the words of a performing artist I admire, maybe we can adopt the attitude of "***k What You Think." I manage to p*** off everyone by saying DUNE PROPHECY was OK and I enjoyed it. I'm glad it got renewed because I think they can hopefully do better. Opinions are just opinions. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Thanks for doing what you do.
I watched the Star wars prequels in my early 20s and the Yoda fight with DarthTyrannus/ Count Dooku was very cool at that time, because they were known as the best duellists within the jedi order and were master and padawan before 😅 Cool discussion ✨ thx, it was a pleasure to listen to
I think the reason Theo did not stay as Inez was because the alarms went off. So, at that point Valya and Theo knew Desmond was aware Valya was arrested and was going to escape Inez. As, obviously Valya would have no interest in escaping Kieron, so it was know Valay was there for the princess whom she wanted to relocate to Walach 9. With the original plan, Theo was likely going to just sit tight pretending and duping Desmond the princess was securely under arrest - allowing the princess to escape secretly without anyone knowing she had gone. Then at a later time Theo could share shift into a bird or something and escape. However, the plan had to change as the guards were on the way - so Theo instead offered to stay to 'buy time' for Valya and the princess to get away. Valya told Theo she can't protect her if she stayed as Desmond now knew there were intruders in the palace and she would be in danger, whereas the original plan carried low risk and Theo was not meant to be put in such danger. However, Theo chose to stay, even though she was no longer going to be able to follow through on the original plan of pretending to be the princess. Theo then improvised and pretended to be a soldier instead.
You guys seem to be forgetting some things about Dorothea. Valya’s conflict with her was representative of the schism in the order. They used to follow Raquella. Then she died and tried to have 2 opposite successors. Dorothea and her people are strict traditionalist. More religious in nature. They are more aligned with the order’s roots. Against all of this expansion and power gain. Valya’s people are basically progressive radicals (who resort to very extreme methods). They are cutthroat, unapologetic, and all about being in control. But Valya’s vision is the one that is needed for the order to expand and actually have the power they seek. It was literally a schism in the order, and both opposite visions couldn’t survive. Neither would kneel to the other, so the more advanced sect (Valya’s people) eliminated the rest. So they could have a unified vision. Dorothea Vs Valya represents strict traditionalism Vs. Radical progressiveness.
Agree totally. I might add that the BG's are becoming the ultimate atheists in the universe and Valya recognized the power of using The Missionaria Protectiva as the evolving Bene Gesserit Sisterhood's "black arm of superstition", that will be responsible for sowing the seeds of superstition in primitive cultures, so that the Sisterhood could take advantage of them when those seeds grew toward full-fledged legends. They were responsible for spreading the Panoplia Propheticus (myths, prophecies, and superstitions). I believe season 2 will see the development of this through Valya's vision. Again, how can religious zealots turn to using cynical means that are antithetical to religious dogma?
When Desmond first gets to Salusa, he and Kasia stare at each other, and there's a focus on his eyes. I think he infected her then, and activated the virus when he also killed Pruit.
Just rewatched Dune Part 1 & 2. This show, with Brian Herbert's influence, directs the tone too far away from both Frank Herbert's and the new movies' vision gor me.
You can feel a bit of tension in the show about how much Brian's vision should guide it. It's a super hard thing to resolve because he legally owns "Dune®" but his shit is incompatible with Dune proper. Might be interesting to get a full behind the scenes on how the scripts got influenced by having to be signed off on by several studios a dozen producers aaaaaand BH and KJA. Seriously, most of the opening credits are producers, it's nuts.
I've started to realize that if you think about the why and how of pretty much anything in this show, it falls apart. No one's decision making or motivations made sense. It was still good and I'm looking forward to next season, but it seems like it might be one of those shows that, if you want to enjoy it, you can't think about it too hard. Which is unfortunate for a Dune show.
I liked the discussion here a lot. I really agree with the lack of depth to the show, the contrivances, and the huge missed opportunity to say anything substantive about AI. I hope they clean up season 2 and have something to say, and a reason to exist, aside from franchise.
honestly the AI thing is my biggest long term concern about the show. When the showrunners were on Gom Jabbar they seemed to be on the right side of the Brian Frank divide themselves, but were personally unconcerned about AI. This show could be the most interesting investigation into it, but it feels like the theme they're the least interested in. I hope to be proven wrong.
I kinda hope we don’t see the navigators in the next season, before dune messiah comes out… I’m so excited to see how Villeneuve portrays them and don’t want that to get spoiled
the vioce has become the mcguffin of this story. its meant to be an opening not a finishing move. dont even think paul used it that way. you are suppose to either plant the word in training over time or read your mark to find the word and tone that "touches" their parasympathetic nervous system mentally. like the nerves that make your heart beat, most people dont control that, except the initiated of the sisterhood... ive done this in real life to someone i know in a life and death situation. it works just like described in the book. you dont black out you just act without thinking. good luck showing that subtlety in cinema though. thats hard.
The full name of Raquella is Raquella Berto-Anirul. The AI is named after her. Anirul is also the name of Shaddam IV wife. So it's probably a name semi-popular in Sisterhood. 🙂
What's happening? I keep my dreadlocks in a napkin ring, rap and sing. Unlike homogeneous clones, I'm into Earth tones, birthstones and erogenous zones. The more ticklish the more you have! I'm sitting on the curb of what used to be the burbs, and before that was Canarsie. I'm in disturbed and bitter herb like salt water and parsley.
If I had to guess. Valya assumes that if Desmond was attacked on Arakis then clues are there. And if I had to guess I’d say the plan to build Desmond was hatched long before and that he was killed in a planned attack so that he could be replaced by the new Desmond gola. Otherwise, Desmond being Tula’s son is a coincidence that doesn’t make sense. Desmond MUST have been a planned target for his bloodline. So who knew or found out is the real enemy behind things. 👏
Valya had Javicco terminated as he was too unreliable, too easily influenced by others, too willing to reject Valay's counsel and operate without a truthsayer. He was no longer under absolute control of the sisterhood and as Valya said 'he had his chance and blew it'. Therefore, he could no longer be trusted, he had become a liability and obstruction and could cause further problems in the future. So, he was no longer of use to the sisterhood, so he no longer had a purpose. He become redundant and had to be removed to secure the plans the Sisterhood have for only Inez to ascend to the throne. Also, being in such a powerful position he could still be used by the sisterhoods enemies, so he had to be eliminated to remove any associated risks.
I really enjoyed the show… the first episode was kinda weak for me but every episode after kept getting better. For material based on Brian and Kevin’s work it wasn’t bad… I actually am a fan of their contributions. So glad after the Dune movies we just get more from this universe.
I would like to see the show veer more heavily into its concepts in the next season, budget permitting. Tens of thousands of years in the future should feel a bit more alien, imo.
I think a point that needs to be discussed is how quick Valya apparently took over the sisterhood. Tula is not even shoving yet and got knocked up just before they went to the sisterhood, no? Or should we assume that they were there already years before. Seems very unlikely that they join the sisterhood and lead it all in couple of months I think.
She became a reverend mother on her home planet right before they left she had already done all the acolyte training and was one Wallack IX for quite some time so it makes sense even though I agree it seems all pretty quick.
It was really confusing to me that so many people were convinced the blue eyes were the god emperor. It never made sense to me why they would have had such overt mechanical noises during those shots, unless it was supposed to be his repulsor sled we were hearing?
I don't think Javico being told he wouldn't do anything because it wasn't in his interest was handwavy at all, I think they made it pretty clear that he enjoyed being on the throne but not putting himself in bold positions that might threaten his role. Protesting about and fighting what was going on with Desmond and his wife definately would have been a battle. He would be more interested in being a passive figurehead than fighting that. Not sure why you would want those genes in your bloodline for the KH though. Overall I enjoyed the series, but there were a few jarring things. The atreides and princess love story was strained and kind of pointless, the assination plot seemed childish, BG talking about shai halud like it was part of their belief, the slow pacing in parts trying their best to be GoT. But overall I enjoyed it and am looking to see more in next season, I think this final episode was very good.
someone made a joke about a sandworm with a robot in it ... but now you say that a sandworm ate a factory in the books? maybe that same sandworm ate desmond? and thus bringing desmond to that factory inside a worm?
I don't believe Desmond was actually swallowed by the worm. To me, in every scene, it seems as though the sandworm stops just short and burrows right infront of him. Although, Im willing to believe he was swallowed- perhaps I missed the dialogue in the show where it's explicitly stated that he was swallowed. Also, why was Desmond ostensibly calling a worm to him? Did he just want to die?
6 episodes wasn't enough for everything they started. Uneven pacing in some of those. Episode 6 would be a good mid season episode to bring the central conflict(s) to climax.
Interesting, try going back to the episode and count the scars on his back and tally that with the people he burned on screen. Im sure more of his story post sandworm and pre show will be shown in next season where we see him right after he is brought back by the machine and figuring out this stuff.
I think this has been the best episode so far but honestly I’d trade this show for more Raised by Wolves. Really disappointed HBO cancelled it but pleasantly surprised that this is getting a second season……. Although Raises by Wolves got two seasons before being cancelled 😞
watched it last night from my work computer; so I couldn't respond. I may be an odd one out. I have not read all the books, of Franks. Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of Dune & God Emperor, I have also read The Butlerian Jihad, The Machine Crusade, & The Battle of Corrin. Now y'all seem way sharper than me, but although, I like (like Nerd Cookies) Franks writing better (better is my word not hers); I also liked the buterian jihad as well and thought it was cool that Gaius Helen Mohiam infected the Baron with a disease that makes him a big stay puff marshmallow man, cause he did something that fit his evil persona. Also Prophecy please bring us Navigators and Mentats..... I'm happy with all Dune things. If anyone has any melange; I'm looking for a friend : P Oh and yeah, they just forgot about the slow blade 🤣
So the tossing him into the wall hurt because of the stop something similar to a car crash cuz the shield is stopping his body not his organs so they are smashing off his chest and skull think about a pro boxer getting knocked out if u will
11:13 I actually feel the same way. Of course it depends on the context of the comments, there's a big difference between comments that are in good faith and those that are not
Watching Season 1 and Quinn and others review of it I believe many are under the impression that this season was driven by story and not Brian Herbert and his need to pillage the good works of his father to the point of desecration... 1. The BG do not believe in religions except as tools to manipulate the masses. Hence them believing in prophecy is ridiculous 2. The Voice is form of mental conditioning that allows them to subtly influence others through carefully chosen words and tones. Not "Mind control" to be used like Thor's Hammer! 3. Mark Strong is an expensive actor, so they killed him off. Not what happened in the Brian Herbert books but, the Dollar is King. 4. Frank shared that the ultimate goal and belief of the sisterhood was: Controlling the genetic and mental potential of individuals, so that they can steer humanity towards a brighter future. Rant finished. Many of us tune in to see if we can catch glimpses of Franks vision, but Brian is having none of that....
Can Dorothea know about her own murder? Doesn't that break the rules of genetic memory? Maybe if Lila was born from a Dorothea clone, her cells would have the data.
@@D7fromGuild you know, could be. This is kind of a microcosm of Brian versus Alison that keeps cropping up in this series. If Brian Herbert had his way it would follow his book's BJ logic where there's no such rule about genetic memory, where other memory is completely open ended. But I think Alison Schapker's approach is more likely to just undermine that side enough and make it a tiny bit more plausible. So Avila seeing the reawakened Lila sees her opportunity to get one over on the Harkonen sisters.
This TV Show does not care about the Lore right ? Bene Gesserit is absolutely not supposed to exist that early in the History of Dune, The community of Sisters of Rossak (not Wallach IV) does not have the "powers" of the Bene Gesserit yet. And, the Fremens are not supposed to exist yet either, even the zensunnis don't, they arrive on Arrakis like 7000 years later. And what is that nonsense of a character that is Desmond Hart, the guy has magic powers now, there's no magic powers in the Dune Universe, the only supernatural element is the Spice, even the Bene Gesserit's voice is not magic they just use their senses to analyse a human so they know what to say and how to say the words to dominate, there's no magic. I watched two episodes and i'm not happy with what they did.
He had to have been chosen by the machines for a reason and the only people who knew about Desmonds genetic potential was Valya and Tula.. and Anirul was the one who predicted it this genetic potential nobody or nothing else knew so that leaves Anirul as the culprit for leaking that information.
It wouldn’t make sense if he can. The whole point of the Kwisatz Haderach breeding program is to breed a male with the genes to use their drug equivalent of the Fremen’s Water of Life, and that’s the only way to get those memories without being pre born.
Thanks, everyone, for joining us for these streams. It's been a blast!
Thanks for doing these! It's been fun listening to you guys. 😊
The emperor is so poor he cant afford a jail, just puts all his prisoners floating around together where they can chat and scheme to their hearts content.
The switch from 'Sisterhood above all' to 'Sisters above all' was a really nice subtle touch. Especially since, even with that, there still wasn't the actual trust (and likely properly so)
I agree.
I really liked the line that the young Harkonnen sisters said to eachother. Instead of “Sisterhood above all” they say “Sisters above all”
The conversation Valya had with the emperor in the throne room when she decimated his ego is similar to the scene Frank Herbert wrote in Dune between Jessica & Thufur Hawat. The specific scene when Jessica confronts Thufur when he suspected her of being the traitor. Jessica does the same thing and ends the confrontation with “ now you understand the true power of the Bene Jesserit”.
Yeah imagine concerting that room into a chic living space lolol
I love that scene in the book because it shows how even the most logical of people, mentats, are susceptible to emotional manipulation, by their own hand or by someone like Jessica’s hand. Logic and emotion go hand in hand.
The plan seemed to be like: Valya breaks Ynez out of jail, Theo-Ynez takes the Princess's place in jail. Valya and Ynez run away to Arrakis, Theo-Ynez remains jailed at the Palace.
Ynez demanded Keiran to be released as well. After that, there wasn't really any point in keeping Theo in jail as Ynez. No one was going to believe she was left behind while Atreides was taken.
And, well, no one really stopped and thought about it for 15 seconds on what to do next, so they still left Theo behind, and she improvised a bad plan to stab Desmond Hart.
Yea that was super clear to me idk how people were so confused about it.
I think its a lame excuse to have more sisters at the palace, we have Tula, Theo, and i suspect Francesca is still alive.
@@AZJayjohn Fran's dead for sure.
My theory is that Theo is a Tleilaxu double agent and failed her mission for the Sisterhood for a purpose we have yet to see.
I still don’t like that everyone was throwing out “Shai Hulud” and “the Maker” - it’s a Fremen belief system. The BG shouldn’t be speaking about it like they believe it.
i agree
Yeah, but maybe they condition themselves to not break with their own propaganda. Dunno.
I agreed.
Was this the Fremen belief system in Brian Herbert's work 10,000 years before events of Paul Atreides etc? I haven't read so I don't know.
Would be interesting if it was a belief held by sisterhood first and then worked into Fremen belief?
@@PatrickGannthat’s kinda how I see it. If anything, the scene with Tula teaching Valya to embrace the fear as she sees the worm coming to her in the trance/nightmare could theoretically signal that they will embrace this as the prophecy to be told. A reclamation of the nightmare.
I love all the work you put in Quinn. Thank you for these few weeks of deep dives I have looked forward to it every upload! Thank you
Thank you for thorough well thought out commentary unlike most other channels on Dune Prophecy have been, I've become a huge fan of yours from all of this and have really appreciated yours and your cohosts thoughts on all this.
Agree. I like these discussions. Nicely done.
so travis fimmels characters could have been raised by wolves? hahahah
Sol protect us
Thank you. The audio is finally balanced.
Every single one of these nitpicks can be explained. For example, they DO show the combat prowess of the sisterhood through Valya and Theodosia several times. Mikayla also shows her combat skills at the bar. Also Theodosia takes the guards appearance because without Kieran, imitating the Princess is unrealistic. empress Natalya helping bring the emprie together is mentioned several times and the first mention is in the first episode.
I agree there are a few nitpicks that I agree with and overall complaints about the flow of the show etc. but some of these are meh
The desert scenes were filmed in Jordan, in actual nature, to the point that the Solar eclipse we see in the film just happened while they were there, so they included it in the movie superposed onto itself. It's in the far south of Jordan, so it should be safe to use the place again, even if surrounded by a dozen wars, they would be about 150km from the nearest battle zone.
"Choose", "not a clear command." Balderdash. Valya used the command to specify that if they couldn't follow her, that they needed to "leave" the sisterhood. Pretty clear.
The Jabico/Francesca storyline hit some for me, but I know it would have hit harder if they had more screentime.
Plenty of this first season's faults can be pointed to a lack of episodes and budget. For God Emperor's sake, please let there be more budget and more episodes for season 2!
Apparently "Secure the palace" does not include immediately finding the Emperor and making sure he's safe. So much derp in this episode. The Facedancer is supposed to imitate the Princess to buy them time but changes immediately to an injured guard, then proceed to stab her target in the side instead of the neck or chest. Also the princess and the swordmaster bossing their way through a dozen elite guards - I hate this trope.
As a whole, I really enjoyed the show and I want more.
I really liked the choice to use the word “choose” when they killed all the other sisters. I think it showed that they believed in their morals and ideas so much that they would rather die than follow Valya. Also the creators said they didn’t want it to become a meme if they just said “kill yourself” or something like that. Which I can understand.
I agree - it really shows the depth and degree of the schism - that they're so entrenched with Dorotea's ideas that yeah, given the choice to follow Valya or suicide like Dorotea, her followers are so cult-gone they choose death. Valya gives them a choice, but all but one are so committed to Dorotea's cause, they cannot help but be true to that cause. It was way more brilliant a plot choice than any other option.
honestly i really liked it too- plus the horror of looking around and people are all killing themselves rather than following you? so fun to watch
I wish I could have been here for any of these episodes live
I normally wait for them to end before I listen haha
Why? It’s just Quinn trying to hook up with nerdboobies.
It was always in our faces "sisterhood over all" it was really about the Harkonnen sisters.
I enjoyed the last 3 episodes a lot but I’m a sucker for some weird sci-fi. I’m glad we are getting a second season because weird sci-fi shows rarely last very long. Agreed with most of your predictions especially that the eyes were not the god emperor. No way they introduce him in the show before the movies but that’s definitely something they wanted you to think.
We are?! Hell yeah!
Agreed. Infecting yourself + Yoga/meditating to get vaccines/antibodies is a rare ”oh wow cool scifi concept”
My overall issue is that Frank Herbert was a visionary thinker and writer about the human condition, Brian Herbert is not. I could not finish Brian Herberts books because, in my own amateur opinion, he just doesn't understand the themes of his father's work. Brian has made a name from trying to write fan fiction to explain subtle but complex concepts. For example, the litany against fear gets explained in the show as a defense against a machine virus as opposed to a concept that Frank was trying to impart that our inability to control our emotions and fears leads to societal problems and weakness. The Bene Geseritt are meant to be elite philosophers who have pushed human ability to its upmost limit. They harness their bodies and minds to accomplish amazing things both politically and physically. The litany was the written equivalent of showing but not telling how far they have pushed themselves. The show is much more Brian than Frank which is why I'm disappointed. An example in the show is how Dorataia (no idea if this is spelled right), visits the site of her murder and recovers her memories of her death...what... in Frank Herberts books they are accessing genetic memories, not ghost memories. Dorataia's genetic memories end at the conception of her daughter or granddaughter. They're not psychically linked. At the moment I feel that the Dune movies are a little closer to Franks concepts but we'll see with Messiah.
I blame the shield inconsistency purely on editing. You can see in scenes like when Valya cuts the first soldier that she is slow in her movement. But in a lot of other scenes they simply fail to properly show that the blade moves slowly.
Also, it seems from the visual effect that Desmond had a different shield. Everyone else wears a shield just like in the movie. The effect on his shield before the explosion seemed different.
like its not a perfect show but this last ep was enough like dune vibes kind of- and I like Valya’s drama to be hooked for however many seasons they go for
Reverend Mother Superior Valya Harkonnen's stroll through the Sardaukar was disturbingly good.
It's really kind of like a rollercoaster that only gives the illusion of a good time. Just when you think you're going to enjoy the thrill of going down the drop, it simply coasts into another station, where you have to exit the ride and wait in line for the rest of it - which they’re still building.
True, but the pacing has improved very much so I'll allow having to queue up for future episodes -- that's a hallmark of series that get renewed. /cross fingers.
39:21 there is no meaning to "same exact time" in places separated by such long distances. there's no causal relationship between the events
The guffler crack sent me… 😂😂😂
I’m staying up late to listen to this… it’s technically Christmas. WTF AM I DOING?😅
Also, I LOVED the shift in Valya’s takedown of Javicco.
As opposed to a crude command with use of the voice like in the past, she brought a reserved, intelligent weapon of precision. It was beautiful.
She covered the bases and snookered Francesca in a swift singular move.
I found the show to be a mixed bag.
There were parts I wish we could see more of. Like the BG training...show us more of that.
The spice agony. I wish we'd get to see a bit of what is going on inside Lila's head whenever one of the other personalities take over.
Show a bit more of the Emperor's background with Francesca and Natalya.
Basically the show lacked depth. The concepts are there but apart from Tula none of the other characters really have an arc.
She's the one who goes from supporting her sister to doubting her to the past where she chose to give up her son. At least she has some motivation that makes sense.
But again this was shown in like only the very last two episodes otherwise she was just roaming the BG halls and looking confused half the time
The six episode structure is also horrible. They need at least 8. In fact I would 10 is best so we get to flesh out the characters more.
Like I can't even tell the acolytes apart expect for 2 or 3 of them. It's just undercooked
Hopefully season 2 improves on the pitfalls they had this time around
It wasn't the spice agony. It was rossack poison.
@ewarrior9776 Initially yes but then Tula put her in a tank of spice and we never see what happened only Lila randomly breaking out of it
They could have had a scene of her revival in the spice tank with her eyes changing to the classic blue on blue
Every personality switch after that point is because of the spice she had inhaled in the tank. They could have still showed how the switches were happening
I wish they gave us some of the politics so we could care about the emperor or the rebellion or the sisters. I have no idea who the emperor was, or what he did, that made people dislike him aside from the fact that he was in power.
Chat annoying Quinn around the eleven minute mark 😆
Don't judge me. I'm trying to be better.
@@QuinnsIdeas Dont worry, the master of the house has the final say. Merry XMas and THX for your Dune content.
We need a cut where Valya sees what happened to Desmond then it cuts to him upside down floating in the air from raised by wolves 😂
😂😂😂
The last episode was breathtaking and touched me deeply on an emotional level in several scenes.
The most poignant moment was when Tula had to give up her baby. As a mother, this was incredibly hard for me to watch-what a sacrifice. And in the end, her son was exploited by others and denied the peaceful life Tula had dreamed of for him…
The thing about Theodosia, she changed the plan and chose to not do what Valya told her. You can tell it was her decision to change into the soldier not the princess.
yeah, that was weird
This episode definitely had a theme of BeeGee sisters going their own way.
@@jsalsman🎶More than a Sister. More than a Sister to...🎶 "Stop. Pull out your knife."
Which, well, makes sense. With Keiran gone, there is no point pretending to be the Princess.
changed the plan and it was ultra stupid. I mean it could be good if she actually killed Desmond, but seriously imagine that face dancer/bene gesserit cant even stab trough the heart
I can be critical of things I don't like while overall I really liked the show. Better than the book. The sisters nailed performance. I don't like hearing"Shai Halud," face dancer's death, there needed to be more episodes and every plot at some point had to be shoe horned into another to make it work. Valya has the right ruthlessness but need better calculation
The face dancer is probably not dead. Desmond told the guards to put her up in the suspensors.
Yes - I think that she found out something about her followers from her research. Maybe she was lying when she said the records were erased or found a secret place where the records were held.
If Desmond is a ghola there is a huge problem. It will be 10,000 years before the technique to force a ghola to recover its memories is discovered.
Don't we know that he isn't now, but was recovered by the smart machine forces, whoever they are? Not Ixians, as they were in cahoot with the rebels.
@@SIMUL4CR4Agreed, Well put
Love you Quinn your content is elite 🔥🔥🔥 merry Christmas x
Quinn, in the words of a performing artist I admire, maybe we can adopt the attitude of "***k What You Think." I manage to p*** off everyone by saying DUNE PROPHECY was OK and I enjoyed it. I'm glad it got renewed because I think they can hopefully do better. Opinions are just opinions. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! Thanks for doing what you do.
I watched the Star wars prequels in my early 20s and the Yoda fight with DarthTyrannus/ Count Dooku was very cool at that time, because they were known as the best duellists within the jedi order and were master and padawan before 😅
Cool discussion ✨ thx, it was a pleasure to listen to
Just missed the live! But rewatching it now. And 10 minutes in and full of lore pulp! Yum 😊
I couldn’t tell you half the characters names, but that last scene with the heighliner folding space was cool
I think the reason Theo did not stay as Inez was because the alarms went off. So, at that point Valya and Theo knew Desmond was aware Valya was arrested and was going to escape Inez. As, obviously Valya would have no interest in escaping Kieron, so it was know Valay was there for the princess whom she wanted to relocate to Walach 9.
With the original plan, Theo was likely going to just sit tight pretending and duping Desmond the princess was securely under arrest - allowing the princess to escape secretly without anyone knowing she had gone. Then at a later time Theo could share shift into a bird or something and escape.
However, the plan had to change as the guards were on the way - so Theo instead offered to stay to 'buy time' for Valya and the princess to get away. Valya told Theo she can't protect her if she stayed as Desmond now knew there were intruders in the palace and she would be in danger, whereas the original plan carried low risk and Theo was not meant to be put in such danger.
However, Theo chose to stay, even though she was no longer going to be able to follow through on the original plan of pretending to be the princess. Theo then improvised and pretended to be a soldier instead.
You guys seem to be forgetting some things about Dorothea. Valya’s conflict with her was representative of the schism in the order. They used to follow Raquella. Then she died and tried to have 2 opposite successors. Dorothea and her people are strict traditionalist. More religious in nature. They are more aligned with the order’s roots. Against all of this expansion and power gain. Valya’s people are basically progressive radicals (who resort to very extreme methods). They are cutthroat, unapologetic, and all about being in control. But Valya’s vision is the one that is needed for the order to expand and actually have the power they seek. It was literally a schism in the order, and both opposite visions couldn’t survive. Neither would kneel to the other, so the more advanced sect (Valya’s people) eliminated the rest. So they could have a unified vision. Dorothea Vs Valya represents strict traditionalism Vs. Radical progressiveness.
Agree totally. I might add that the BG's are becoming the ultimate atheists in the universe and Valya recognized the power of using The Missionaria Protectiva as the evolving Bene Gesserit Sisterhood's "black arm of superstition", that will be responsible for sowing the seeds of superstition in primitive cultures, so that the Sisterhood could take advantage of them when those seeds grew toward full-fledged legends. They were responsible for spreading the Panoplia Propheticus (myths, prophecies, and superstitions). I believe season 2 will see the development of this through Valya's vision. Again, how can religious zealots turn to using cynical means that are antithetical to religious dogma?
I'm not sure about your definitions, but you're right overall.
When Desmond first gets to Salusa, he and Kasia stare at each other, and there's a focus on his eyes. I think he infected her then, and activated the virus when he also killed Pruit.
Just rewatched Dune Part 1 & 2. This show, with Brian Herbert's influence, directs the tone too far away from both Frank Herbert's and the new movies' vision gor me.
You can feel a bit of tension in the show about how much Brian's vision should guide it. It's a super hard thing to resolve because he legally owns "Dune®" but his shit is incompatible with Dune proper. Might be interesting to get a full behind the scenes on how the scripts got influenced by having to be signed off on by several studios a dozen producers aaaaaand BH and KJA. Seriously, most of the opening credits are producers, it's nuts.
I've started to realize that if you think about the why and how of pretty much anything in this show, it falls apart. No one's decision making or motivations made sense. It was still good and I'm looking forward to next season, but it seems like it might be one of those shows that, if you want to enjoy it, you can't think about it too hard. Which is unfortunate for a Dune show.
People making stupid decisions in the heat of the moment seems real but definitely not Herbert!
Yeah, I feel very much the same. It’s Dune, but only at a surface level, and it has the depth of a puddle.
You think there might be a House Corrino civil war Natalya (in Ynez's) name fighting with Constantine. He's the head of the fleet, right?
her revenge stuff hapened before the series main plot she clearly showed she is sisterhood above all
I really enjoyed the podcast. I watched all of them completely.
I liked the discussion here a lot. I really agree with the lack of depth to the show, the contrivances, and the huge missed opportunity to say anything substantive about AI. I hope they clean up season 2 and have something to say, and a reason to exist, aside from franchise.
honestly the AI thing is my biggest long term concern about the show. When the showrunners were on Gom Jabbar they seemed to be on the right side of the Brian Frank divide themselves, but were personally unconcerned about AI. This show could be the most interesting investigation into it, but it feels like the theme they're the least interested in. I hope to be proven wrong.
Amazing to see and hear all three of you on at once!
It was a good and satisfying season finale for meh
I kinda hope we don’t see the navigators in the next season, before dune messiah comes out… I’m so excited to see how Villeneuve portrays them and don’t want that to get spoiled
the vioce has become the mcguffin of this story. its meant to be an opening not a finishing move. dont even think paul used it that way. you are suppose to either plant the word in training over time or read your mark to find the word and tone that "touches" their parasympathetic nervous system mentally. like the nerves that make your heart beat, most people dont control that, except the initiated of the sisterhood... ive done this in real life to someone i know in a life and death situation. it works just like described in the book. you dont black out you just act without thinking. good luck showing that subtlety in cinema though. thats hard.
Beautiful visuals, schemes and power struggles ruined by emotion and ideology. Genuinely good new Dune story that expands the universe.
The full name of Raquella is Raquella Berto-Anirul. The AI is named after her. Anirul is also the name of Shaddam IV wife. So it's probably a name semi-popular in Sisterhood. 🙂
Audio levels are good, lock in these settings for season 2!
What software do you guys use for the podcast presentation? Streamlabs or something? I like the companion slideshow of screencaps.
It's a discord call piped to YT livestream with Quinn sharing his full screen of the episode?
What's happening? I keep my dreadlocks in a napkin ring, rap and sing.
Unlike homogeneous clones, I'm into Earth tones, birthstones and erogenous zones. The more ticklish the more you have! I'm sitting on the curb of what used to be the burbs, and before that was Canarsie. I'm in disturbed and bitter herb like salt water and parsley.
Deltron 3030 and Automater
Well, Cliofis Randolf the Patriarch...
hahaha but yeah
If I had to guess. Valya assumes that if Desmond was attacked on Arakis then clues are there. And if I had to guess I’d say the plan to build Desmond was hatched long before and that he was killed in a planned attack so that he could be replaced by the new Desmond gola. Otherwise, Desmond being Tula’s son is a coincidence that doesn’t make sense. Desmond MUST have been a planned target for his bloodline. So who knew or found out is the real enemy behind things. 👏
Valya had Javicco terminated as he was too unreliable, too easily influenced by others, too willing to reject Valay's counsel and operate without a truthsayer. He was no longer under absolute control of the sisterhood and as Valya said 'he had his chance and blew it'. Therefore, he could no longer be trusted, he had become a liability and obstruction and could cause further problems in the future. So, he was no longer of use to the sisterhood, so he no longer had a purpose. He become redundant and had to be removed to secure the plans the Sisterhood have for only Inez to ascend to the throne. Also, being in such a powerful position he could still be used by the sisterhoods enemies, so he had to be eliminated to remove any associated risks.
I really enjoyed the show… the first episode was kinda weak for me but every episode after kept getting better. For material based on Brian and Kevin’s work it wasn’t bad… I actually am a fan of their contributions. So glad after the Dune movies we just get more from this universe.
I would like to see the show veer more heavily into its concepts in the next season, budget permitting. Tens of thousands of years in the future should feel a bit more alien, imo.
Tula isn’t weak she’s subservient, the things she’s done is anything but weak
I think a point that needs to be discussed is how quick Valya apparently took over the sisterhood. Tula is not even shoving yet and got knocked up just before they went to the sisterhood, no? Or should we assume that they were there already years before. Seems very unlikely that they join the sisterhood and lead it all in couple of months I think.
She became a reverend mother on her home planet right before they left she had already done all the acolyte training and was one Wallack IX for quite some time so it makes sense even though I agree it seems all pretty quick.
It was really confusing to me that so many people were convinced the blue eyes were the god emperor. It never made sense to me why they would have had such overt mechanical noises during those shots, unless it was supposed to be his repulsor sled we were hearing?
My oil, my Iraqis, my dune
I don't think Javico being told he wouldn't do anything because it wasn't in his interest was handwavy at all, I think they made it pretty clear that he enjoyed being on the throne but not putting himself in bold positions that might threaten his role. Protesting about and fighting what was going on with Desmond and his wife definately would have been a battle. He would be more interested in being a passive figurehead than fighting that. Not sure why you would want those genes in your bloodline for the KH though.
Overall I enjoyed the series, but there were a few jarring things. The atreides and princess love story was strained and kind of pointless, the assination plot seemed childish, BG talking about shai halud like it was part of their belief, the slow pacing in parts trying their best to be GoT. But overall I enjoyed it and am looking to see more in next season, I think this final episode was very good.
Does this live stream or an earlier one discuss why Sister Jen doesn’t have the same nightmare as the other Sisters?
02:34:50 Chair dogs? I just realized the Dark Eldar are the Tleilaxu on steroids... and to the power of 8
> Where bodies are buried
I guess Dorothea had her own plans on where to bury the bodies.
Valia will be the first wild reverend mother on Arrakis.
someone made a joke about a sandworm with a robot in it ... but now you say that a sandworm ate a factory in the books? maybe that same sandworm ate desmond? and thus bringing desmond to that factory inside a worm?
merry christmas day🙂✝️🕎🎁🎄🎈🎅☕🫖❄☃️🎉🙂
Rooting for a charismatic leader? I think Frank had something to say about this.
I don't believe Desmond was actually swallowed by the worm. To me, in every scene, it seems as though the sandworm stops just short and burrows right infront of him. Although, Im willing to believe he was swallowed- perhaps I missed the dialogue in the show where it's explicitly stated that he was swallowed. Also, why was Desmond ostensibly calling a worm to him? Did he just want to die?
6 episodes wasn't enough for everything they started. Uneven pacing in some of those. Episode 6 would be a good mid season episode to bring the central conflict(s) to climax.
I have a question..
Presumably Desmond figured out he had these “powers”
So how many people had he burned like that before the show starts?
Interesting, try going back to the episode and count the scars on his back and tally that with the people he burned on screen. Im sure more of his story post sandworm and pre show will be shown in next season where we see him right after he is brought back by the machine and figuring out this stuff.
I think this has been the best episode so far but honestly I’d trade this show for more Raised by Wolves. Really disappointed HBO cancelled it but pleasantly surprised that this is getting a second season……. Although Raises by Wolves got two seasons before being cancelled 😞
Alt shift is a movie/show critic, (a good one) that’s why he is harder on this series than Quinn
48:05 - the vision is false, it was planted - he wasn't ever swallowed by a worm.
Hopefully y'all find ways to continue to collab after this series.
i love that dune is getting this show and its getting renewed but man its low quality
watched it last night from my work computer; so I couldn't respond. I may be an odd one out. I have not read all the books, of Franks. Dune, Dune Messiah, Children of
Dune & God Emperor, I have also read The Butlerian Jihad, The Machine Crusade, & The Battle of Corrin. Now y'all seem way sharper than me, but although, I like (like Nerd Cookies) Franks writing better (better is my word not hers); I also liked the buterian jihad as well and thought it was cool that Gaius Helen Mohiam infected the Baron with a disease that makes him a big stay puff marshmallow man, cause he did something that fit his evil persona. Also Prophecy please bring us Navigators and Mentats..... I'm happy with all Dune things. If anyone has any melange; I'm looking for a friend : P Oh and yeah, they just forgot about the slow blade 🤣
A Facedancer? I'm not rereading 6 books but that felt wrong.
Arcane 1&2 cost to shoot $500 million
I can't imagine anyone topping Sian Phillips as a reverend mother.
How do we know Desmond’s childhood memories hadn’t been altered!??
So the tossing him into the wall hurt because of the stop something similar to a car crash cuz the shield is stopping his body not his organs so they are smashing off his chest and skull think about a pro boxer getting knocked out if u will
Spice turns your eyes blue. Is spice nano technology all along?
11:13 I actually feel the same way. Of course it depends on the context of the comments, there's a big difference between comments that are in good faith and those that are not
nerd cookies giggling every time she speaks. WTF. so annoying.
Watching Season 1 and Quinn and others review of it I believe many are under the impression that this season was driven by story and not Brian Herbert and his need to pillage the good works of his father to the point of desecration...
1. The BG do not believe in religions except as tools to manipulate the masses. Hence them believing in prophecy is ridiculous
2. The Voice is form of mental conditioning that allows them to subtly influence others through carefully chosen words and tones. Not "Mind control" to be used like Thor's Hammer!
3. Mark Strong is an expensive actor, so they killed him off. Not what happened in the Brian Herbert books but, the Dollar is King.
4. Frank shared that the ultimate goal and belief of the sisterhood was: Controlling the genetic and mental potential of individuals, so that they can steer humanity towards a brighter future.
Rant finished. Many of us tune in to see if we can catch glimpses of Franks vision, but Brian is having none of that....
Can Dorothea know about her own murder? Doesn't that break the rules of genetic memory? Maybe if Lila was born from a Dorothea clone, her cells would have the data.
Avila told her about it. The end.
@@D7fromGuild you know, could be. This is kind of a microcosm of Brian versus Alison that keeps cropping up in this series. If Brian Herbert had his way it would follow his book's BJ logic where there's no such rule about genetic memory, where other memory is completely open ended. But I think Alison Schapker's approach is more likely to just undermine that side enough and make it a tiny bit more plausible. So Avila seeing the reawakened Lila sees her opportunity to get one over on the Harkonen sisters.
Roger Yuan I’m guessing you meant
This TV Show does not care about the Lore right ?
Bene Gesserit is absolutely not supposed to exist that early in the History of Dune, The community of Sisters of Rossak (not Wallach IV) does not have the "powers" of the Bene Gesserit yet.
And, the Fremens are not supposed to exist yet either, even the zensunnis don't, they arrive on Arrakis like 7000 years later.
And what is that nonsense of a character that is Desmond Hart, the guy has magic powers now, there's no magic powers in the Dune Universe, the only supernatural element is the Spice, even the Bene Gesserit's voice is not magic they just use their senses to analyse a human so they know what to say and how to say the words to dominate, there's no magic.
I watched two episodes and i'm not happy with what they did.
✌️
Is it possible that Anirul planned & executed this whole thing? Does Paul & Leto exist because of Her? Is she more than meets the...Eye?
He had to have been chosen by the machines for a reason and the only people who knew about Desmonds genetic potential was Valya and Tula.. and Anirul was the one who predicted it this genetic potential nobody or nothing else knew so that leaves Anirul as the culprit for leaking that information.
And the foreshadowing of when Tula first meets Anirul shes says “No mind can be controlled forever”
Wonder if Desmond has the power to use genetic memory like Paul and Leto?
I think he's just a cyborg augment, but who's behind him is explicitly up in the air.
It wouldn’t make sense if he can. The whole point of the Kwisatz Haderach breeding program is to breed a male with the genes to use their drug equivalent of the Fremen’s Water of Life, and that’s the only way to get those memories without being pre born.
Wondering if they did anything to his ears so that the Voice doesn’t do anything against him
BUT MACHINE BAD MACHINE GOOD IS THE WHOLE PREMISE OF ALL THE BOOKS LOL