Losing My Religion | NPR’s Sarah McCammon on EXvangelicals in Trump's America
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 มิ.ย. 2024
- Despite his many alleged improprieties, no group has been more intensely and closely aligned with Donald Trump than white evangelical Christians-some even going so far as to elevate him to the status of "savior." Yet, just as Trump fractured political norms, his presidency has splintered white evangelical families with a reactionary movement of people leaving the church: EXvangelicals.
Drawing on her own personal religious journey, NPR reporter Sarah McCammon is a guide to understanding the immense support for Trump among white evangelical Christians, the backlash among former believers, and what this tells us about a divided America and the culture wars.
After spending her early adult life striving to make sense of an unraveling worldview, by her 30s, she found herself face-to-face with it once again as she covered the Trump campaign for NPR, where she witnessed first-hand the power and influence that evangelical Christian beliefs held on the political right. Growing up in a deeply evangelical family in the Midwest in the ‘80s and ‘90s, McCammon was strictly taught to fear God, obey him, and not question the faith. Persistently worried that her gay grandfather would go to hell unless she could reach him, or that her Muslim friend would need to be converted, McCammon was a rule-follower and-most of the time-a true believer. But through it all, she was increasingly plagued by fears and deep questions as the belief system she'd been carefully taught clashed with her expanding understanding of the outside world.
Part memoir, part investigative journalism, McCammon’s The Exvangelicals is the first definitive book to explore the cultural, social and political impact of the post-evangelical movement.
This program is part of our Good Lit series, underwritten by the Bernard Osher Foundation.
McCammon photo by Kara Frame.
June 18, 2024
Speakers
Sarah McCammon
National Political Correspondent, NPR; Co-host, "NPR Politics" Podcast; Author, The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living and Leaving the White Evangelical Church
Brad Onishi
Adjunct Professor, University of San Francisco; Co-host, "Straight White American Jesus" podcast; Author, Preparing for War: The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism - And What Comes Next
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Most of us don’t have any issues with Christian Evangelicals worshiping how they wish, listening to whoever they wish, reading whatever books they wish. The problem most of us have is don’t force your religious beliefs on others. And above all don’t act like you’re holier than the rest of us or better than the rest of us or more moral than the rest of us. Period.
Yup. I'm told every week, I was never a 'true' Christian. (Ex-Christian) I'm thankful, I never was!
Agree! Don't force your beliefs on me or anyone else. VOTE BLUE
@@BarbaraCarrier-ld9sr Beliefs extend way beyond religion, or the lack thereof. It always tickles me to hear leftists complain about evangelicals when they themselves are the most obnoxious about forcing their beliefs on others.
@@pageribe2399 can you give some examples? Btw Im a former republican voter (now libertarian) NOT Liberal voter. Btw are you watching what's happening in France today?
Evangelicals have always seemed to be cultish.
I see several comments here decrying the attitude of moral superiority among Evangelicals, as if this is the chief problem. The real problem is that there has been a program among Evangelicals for decades pushing us towards theocracy, and it is now in danger of coming to fruition. Forget the smugness. Concentrate on defeating the push towards theocracy. Please.
Yes, yes yes! Biden is a devout Catholic as is Stephen Colbert and Jim Gaffigan. They don't talk about it much. As it should be..
@@lorrie2878 You need not worry about this. God will make it clear who is with Him and who is not.
@@IDamian1We have seen whom “God” has selected in the past and we are plenty worried.
I feel bad for all the children who are brainwashed by religion. I was one, Catholic by force.
Yup. Ex-Christian for 38 great, guilt free years.
@@maryannsimms7189 Same here. Happy to be free of religion for 20 years now.
I hate to have to say this, but religion is a personal choice... not a national choice, not a political choice, not a governmental choice, not a community choice, not even a family choice. Real religion or non-religion in America is always individual and personal. If you have to check with others about any deep belief or religious practice you are already lost. Our founders knew how religion can tear society to its core so most were meticulous about keeping religion, religious practices and politics, separate. The easiest way to screw up politics, religion, or society is to try to mix them together. Good intentions does not work here. Look at many areas of the world that keep trying to do this. Serious efforts to mix always leads to disaster and great suffering. Please keep your personal religious beliefs private and out of public life and laws. All Americans should know this in their bones, but many religious people and some leaders don't.
The most damaging thing that ever happened to Christianity was when it merged with the Roman Empire. It was a mistake that is repeated every time Christian faith (or any other) becomes entangled with politics: it becomes more politics than faith. And it becomes just as dangerous as it was in Germany in 1939.
Well said
Please don’t bring any of your ideals into the public space.
@robertcarleo6846 Preferably, you're right. However, reality is that religiosity (or not) is largely an accident of birth and society, statistics anywhere in the world bear this out. That means by default, from the very start, people "check with others" (parents, siblings, society). Indeed, religious structure is targeted at "committing them early" (christening, etc. early on, confirmation/bar mitzvah/etc. early in the teenage years).
@Apriluser Please don't bring any of your religious ideals into the public space.
*fixed it
For years liberals have been called “elites.” I don’t force my opinions or beliefs on anyone. This is America, believe what you want. But acting as if your beliefs are superior to others - I.e. “religious freedom for me not for thee” - is the definition of elitism. Do what you want, but leave me to my own life.
"Do what you want, but leave me to my own life." Great quote! I assume you probably vote libertarian, yes?
@@johnmguzman7491Or they vote for whoever isn't gonna run their lips about their religion
Biden is a devout Catholic but he leaves it out of his work as POTUS.
@@lorrie2878 THIS!!!! Exactly how it should be!
@@user-tu4rn8ui9u by definition one's own ideology is superior, "elite". That applies to any professed member of the "liberal" religion.
You can't avoid the "performative contradiction".
Thanks for your courage in speaking truth to insanity!
Key word......INSANITY!
@@loonshkij Acting on faith alone is not a good idea. We are endowed with both faith and reason and they should work in tandem not isolated from each other. The opposite of faith alone is reason alone which can also be problematic and if carried to extremes can even be Frankenstein-ish. As humans we tend to be one-dimensional choosing faith over reason or reason over faith. This never works. We are supposed to negotiate a path between both, a path endorsed by Religion, Philosophy, and Psychology which is called The Middle Way. A balance between faith and reason not just one or the other which leaves us in one dimension without the benefit of its opposite. This is hard for humans to learn or understand and still harder to practice. It should be taught in the schools.
Thank you for the conversation. It is immensely helpful to know I am not alone. Such a journey to shed the childhood programming I had no choice in.
@@Ouiser56 , also an ex-Christian, an atheist now. I've listened to several atheistic shows and there are many ex-Christians out there.
@Ouiser56 , me too, I left as soon as I started to feel trapped in a cult like situation. I am FREE now, yayyyyy.
Yes, we were taught that the unbelievers had "holes" in their hearts that they filled with bad behavior because they didn't have Jesus in their hearts. But the anguish of praying and not getting a personal reply was devastating and never addressed.
This conversation was very disappointing . Not one word about following Christ's example. full of rationalization for the obscene amounts of money taken in by many churches. Guess evangelicals are afraid to ask themselves what Jesus would think about trump and his persecution of so many groups, his deep hatred, his vulgarity, his depraved behavior...
I heard lots of denial in this conversation, which I find dishonest.
Been there, done this. Not the family thing, but Mormons do, and cults do. As a child I went to a lovely church in San Diego
Now I am a good atheist who treats people with kindness and respect and help them with just bits of kindness.
As the dear leader exudes any religion!! VOTE BLUE
The answer to Evangelists still supporting Orange Dump is that "He hates who you hate" period.
I admire you for having the courage to talk to the new evangelicals. I, too, was indoctrinated young into the evangelical world. Although these beliefs had helped me get through the trials of middle school (I prayed silently all of the time). As I got older, I began to question what I'd been taught, so I decided to read the bible cover to cover. (Saying to myself, I'm going to find out if everything or anything I was taught true. So I began, I had 3 different translations of the bible before me, a concordence, a bible dictionary, new encyclopedia's for historical events and for other definitions, and a library down the street for any research I may need. (Please overlook any typo"s or missed words I may done in posting this) Anyway, It took me at least a good 6 months to complete my in-depth reading, writing, and researclng the bible, but I did it.
I could not help but be inspired, and I almost went religiously and fanatically nuts during that time, but I learned a few things different from what I'd been taught & told. No wonder there are so many denomimations in Christianity alone (last time I checked, it was 200 denominations in the U.S. and additionaly world wide 30,000. I have since read the bilble like that 2 more times, but without the need for so much intensity as the first time. I eventually stopped attending Church, because I'd had so much doubt about believing what was written thousands of years ago by Primitive Middle Eastern Tribsman and all that that encases. As I became more
educated on the historical topic, I came to finally understand that I am an agnostic with the ideology of ""I dont know, and neither do you." This was in the early to late 1970's as a teenager to young adult early 20"s. Evangelicalism was pretty imbedded in my mindset, and remember then that the churches didn't talk politics from the pulpit, abortion was accepted without a thought from 1973 onward. We were taught about the love and goodness of Jesus and applying it to our own lives and NOT about the nuclear family Mom, Dad and 2.3 children of family values. We never talked about so-called Conservative or Liberal ideologies politically, or the purity culture where your dad gives you a ring, and you dance with him in agreement of staying pure, until marriage, ugh! All of that crap is made up by human beings on the edge of Penticostalism. And it was the late 70's and early 80's that Jerry Faldwel's "Moral Majority" , Francis Shaeffer, Dobb's on Focus of the family, and family values etc. came about, then they were makimg their way around the country, on TV , Radio, Movies, and book writing about it.
Anti-abortion, anti-Gay, and all kinds of bizarre prophecies were declared at that time, and on the Larry King show, I remeber Larry King looking at Jerry Falwell and he called Jrerry Faldwell "A Dangerous Man" but as Christians we didn't have any idea just how dangerous that he and the others involved were. So around 1979 my Church and others were purposely influenced to adopt the rhetoric they'd been spewing.around the country, thus the terrible slide of churches into politics. It was the beginning of wrongfully intertwinning religion and politics. I have since become sickened by it. Others have come, and others have gone, but it's still showing it's ugly head today. And my fear is that future generations will forget or not know, that this is a newer phenomenon (as far as history goes) in the christian churches. And today, it's almost out of hand. I refuse to attend most churches today for publically preaching politics from the pulpit? When it had not always been this way, until around 1979 onward.
I sometimes miss my old community Baptist Church and the fellowship, the comfort we used to give each other, all of those wonderful pot luck dinners, and the holiday specials among like minded people, or not, but we still accepted them with no questions
asked, about their sex life or anything like that, lol and I especially miss the singing of God's praises. Today, the churches are running people away from the churches, and too often than not out of their churches. And it is creating sorrows and havoc among the people that might need it. Simply put, it is helping to create atheists and agnostics. And a place I for one will never return.
A manmade product that Jesus would never want for his church😢.
To me, all of this is beginning to feel very Orwellian...😢❤
I'm an ex-Christian atheist and while I'm not from an Evangelical background, mine was still 'conservative' enough that I noticed how judgmental and hateful some were and that's what started me Q'ing things bc IMO, that was certainly NOT very Christian.
So, I agree that the more extremely 'conservative' they are, the more people they'll turn away.
@@starpenta
How lovely your jusgementalism is.
@@Apriluser eye roll. Knowing the difference between right and wrong and choosing one is being 'judgmental'.
(And just who set us up for that to happen? Hint: YHWH is the one who put that tree there in the first place, then even put in another character to lead the newly formed, naive humans, into eating from it.)
I noticed their behavior. They were acting out negatively, based on shallow social constructs. I was judging their behavior based on what I had been told JC taught.
(I've since then learned his character is completely contradictory... I'm JUDGING that based on reading the collection of contradictory myths.)
@@Apriluserwhat?
That's my story too, almost exactly. I consider myself an agnostic atheist. Agnostic meaning I don't know and atheist meaning I don't believe.
It's far worse than the majority knows.
Project 2025 - Mandate for Christofascism.
The dem party is controlled by the CCP. Communism is coming.
While I totally see this in the Evangelical world, it was VERY present in the Catholicism I grew up in as well, and I see the parallels.
True, I was a devout Catholic before I became a brainwashed devout Christian. I broke free from organised religion quite a few years ago, and I haven't looked back since. 🎉🎉🎉🎉
@@maurafenlon8071 You are right. As a former very 'relaxed' Catholic (left the Church after Confirmation at 14 y/o) raised in Spain, I was surprised and yes, scared, with the Catholics I met in the USA when I moved here in 1990. They were akin in their ways to the sect known as Opus Dei.
I am an atheist and wished everyone could feel as free as I do after leaving religion.
It must be very confusing and disappointing for an adult to finally wake up and see that they have been lied to their whole life. I can certainly understand why so many fundamentalist I never able to except reality in the truth, and I’m talking about the scientific truth, not the fairytales in the myths
Utter denial... in adolescent fear.
Scientific facts, not truths.
@@Apriluser
Scientific evidence.
I pisses me off that I have been lied to my whole life , and judged so harshly by my peers .
I love the term "exvangelist"!
Thanks for your voice.
Wow. What a powerful vid. I Plan to purchase Sarah’s book after this podcast. I love u-tube for connecting me to community who are free from religion. For years, I didn’t mention to many people my deconstruction from religion. Evangelicals put atheists into a category of satan/evil/depraved and I didn’t want to be labeled.
I went through this similar Fundamentalist Christian background which was very strict and judgmental but college was when I made the break even though I made it very young mentally because my mother was abusive and somewhat sexually abusive. I will say such dogma isolated me socially and one which did not prepare me for the “real” world.
Purity culture is soooo toxic. Thanks for doing this interview, such an important topic 💚✨
It would be interesting to understand how evangelicals can support Trump. He is the furthest from a Christian and certainly not an example of someone to respect or aspire to be like.
Thank you so very much for this video.
You are so welcome!
Religious person: "I need you to sit down, shut up, and let me run my lips about my magic Jezus beliefs.
Someone: "Could you please not, I'm really not interested."
Religious person: "YOUR PERSECUTING ME!!!!!!!!"
It is very enlightening to many out there when you share your process of breaking free--and really following Christ with your new insights!
My feeling since I was a child many moons ago was God created many ways to worship Him. I don't believe He would condemn anyone to hell when they worship a different way. We just have a different name for God.
Any time I talk with a Christian now, I always ask if they are referring to the white Jesus.
I always ask them, (Still no one has answered) Where did Cain of Adam, Eve, 'Cain' & Abel' get his wife from? Was she the alien race that seeded earth?
@@JustReed
You are so brilliant.
@@Apriluser
I'm really not.
I figured she was a Hittite or Canaanite.
2 heroes 🙌
Go blue! I like this nice person,
Good conversation, discussion…
Excellent program!
Isn't the term "nationalism" divisive enough?
I enjoyed the conversation. I wished there were fewer questions and Sarah had gone deeper with her answers. But that said, I will buy her book. My guess is that it compliments Tim Alberta’s recent book which is great. The country is at a strange and uncomfortable place, but i trust we will move forward as a nation with many diverse believes and some shared fundamental beliefs. I’m willing to do my part.
Re: the skating story…making a little girl responsible for the eternal wellbeing of anyone is horrifying. I had to turn the recording off for a while.
Helped me sort thru my evangelical background!
A very enjoyable conversation. Thank you
I left 35 years ago
Thank you both. Great to see you Brad.
🎉Boy this hits chord. I know so many people who have left the church because of Trump saturation in the big churches. I left to become a Catholic. There's some Trump voters there because of prolife, but they are silent about it and don't approve of him. Others are vocally opposed. Interesting side note, when I becamea Carholic, Iost as many friends as I have vocally opposing Trumpism, mostly from the same judgmental crowd.
I love God. I love America. The Bible indicates in Ezra 3 that you are essentially judged by the Light you were given, and that Heaven has different Mansions for each of us. I see Trump as an abomination (Rev 13,3) and quite simply as it is Written ":The Truth is not in him".
I was not brought up in any church at all . I knew a paster from a Christian Church. I was 32yrs old and I told him that I was starting college and the first thing he said to me was” don’t take any religion classes, you will be disappointed.” I had no idea what he meant or why he made that comment.
In my opinion, Evangelical support for Trump can be explained as simply the ease that one can move from the cult of evangelicalism to the cult of Trump.
I listened to the book. It's good. Thanks
Oh please!! I am disgusted. The excuses. Our nation is in serious danger.
My mother was taught that Adam’s rib notion too
I have often wondered why Evangelicals get caught up in so many religious fads. I have a strong faith in Jesus Christ my Savior. I believe that faith should be solid, not following after every new thing. It especially struck me as strange when you started talking hash
tags in conjunction with Jesus. Evangelicals seem to want to remove their self from popular culture while creating their own pop culture. It doesn't seem to be working real 2ell.
I don't think the issue of IVF is especially complicated. It comes down to rank hypocrisy. The principle that life begins at conception is fine as long as it only affects wicked Jezebels, but when it affects ME, we have to make an exception.
The problem with Evangelicals, or any religion, is when they work to legislate or discriminate to force societies to conform to their views, and their interpretation of religion. Power becomes more important than any morality they supposedly propose.
Tiresome, mundane, wordy, spurious... as book plugs are and always will be.
1:03:16 _"... the Bible, which is such an important book in Western culture ..."_
> Scripture was written by brutish men in brutish times.
When Jesus became remote from most peoples lives a new messiah figure in the guise of Trump as incongruous as that seems fulfilled a need for mostly white angry men. It’s weird that a white angry narcissist such as Donald Trump became the figure to atone for that anger and frustration.
My son that people do what dogs do when he was a teenager. Later major was horrified when he learned his best friend was gay. Yet blew the top off math and science tests. Smart but Clueless.
My son didn't think the people would do what dogs when he was a teenager
I was seven when I read the Adam and Eve story and could never say I believed in the Bible because of what it said God did I was 53 before I interpreted it like a dream and realized it made profound sense in every detail which is basically that we live in a three-dimensional world and the third side is extremely important rapist want one side to win, prostitutes want two and lovers con̈sider all three sides. And that's how we create a hell or Purgatory or Paradise on Earth
Standing on the corner of OCD and psychosis.
This is a disappointing conversation and does not address the hypocrisy where the white evangelical church is so against the teachings and example of Christ.
Ex-Christian for 38 years after dropping out of seminary and about making the worst mistake of my life. Now a spiritual Deist. Fear is NEVER and option, when love is being spoken. Life after death is met with love by EVERYONE when we pass. No one are sinners in need of salvation. 'Amor Sine Timor' - Love without Fear.
Anyone who knows themself knows at least one person in need of salvation.
This woman needs to establish a base of fact ratherr than perception.
An example would be her comparison of Clinton and Trump.
Concept analysis of memory associations and belief systems is handled in Dr Lynne Kelly's book, The Memory Code, from which it is easy to imagine applying the usual fight/flight extraction of conditioning memory associations mechanism creating an adaptive structure of beliefs to suit the natural cycles of nature and survival.
Secrect sections of each system seems to be used as authoritarian ctrol of power over the lower sections of heirachy.., basic biology at work. Any and all belief systems require constant maintenance just as the physical constants are embedded in log-antilog relative-timing condensation modulation cause-effect flash-fractal In-form-ation mechanism.
Religions or rigorous science are not particularly different at the log-antilog holographic positioning nucleation Singularity-point Lensing and Partitioning level.., only the intention of magical-functional names are adopted for purpose.
You're too young to remember Jimmy swaggart Jim bakker.
Fake, Fake...
1. "God" is just an unfalsifiable assumption (inelegant hypothesis) without any explanatory power.
2. _"Faith means not wanting to know, what's true."_ [Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche]
3. _"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, & by the rulers as useful."_ [Seneca?]
I grew up with people telling me that they were a 'recovering catholic'.
There are such wonderful Exvangelicals on TH-cam right now. Now we need Muslims and Jewish people to speak up about stopping the 2000+ years of Insanity.
Perhaps the small bounce back in evangelicalism consists of Trumpists simply identifying as evangelical.
Sarah's past sounds very culty to me.
Exevangelical, but considering oting for Trump? Because the other side is too diverse. Go figure
Religion -- ALL religions including my own, Judaism -- is inherently authoritarian with a few at the top 'translating' the will of G*d with promises of reward and punishment. All religions are inherently susceptible to those who would manipulate the structure of religion for self-serving and usually evil purposes. The same is true with political ideologies, Patriotic and Religious Nationalism.
You can't cherry-pick the good parts of religion when the structure of religion and organized ideology is inherently evil.
Jesus Trump is Luke 19:27
😂The two speakers are either blatantly incompetently ignorant in critical thinking skills or intentionally blatantly dishonest in journalistic integrity. Neither one has spent ANY time in honest contemplation of the subject. This is nothing more than a propaganda hit piece for the coming election.
RE : "moment to moment anxiety about commitment to god...."
Similarly if you belong to a transhuman cult and are going through the sacrificial ceremony of surgical gender transition you might well experience "moment to moment anxiety".
Anxiety is an experience which is common to a variety of human experience...
Anyway, the interviewer kind of predictably tries to push her into a left/woke box, but she resists being pigeonholed and that's good, and good that she is apparently surviving NPR.
Stop hiding behind your job as a "journalist" to refuse to make a judgment about RIGHT AND WRONG.
What makes you think she makes no (private) judgement about right and wrong? And you realize that right and wrong are relative, right?
All taxpayer money to NPR must be cut off.
🔸Religion: 'Pudding is the only way' 'Pasta is the only way' 'Salad is the only way'
🔸Spiritual: 'It's all food'
Mystics are the root and trunk of the same tree, the branches of which are different religions.
From youtube film "With One Voice"
th-cam.com/video/r3o2kltX7RI/w-d-xo.html
Wow, I gotta write this down!
"Purity Culture" certainly did not exist at IHOPKC and the Wolf in Sheep's clothing, Mike Bickle.
Reason!