I have encountered many formidable warriors in my time. Valoris, of course, was reckoned the greatest alive in the Imperium save the primarch himself. And yet, just there, in that place, I can say without hesitation that Asterion Moloc, Chapter Master of the Minotaurs, exuded the most powerful stench of violence I had ever been in the presence of. -valarian of the custodes
Well... I think that the authors sometimes exagerate a little bit. I think that a custodes shoukd have met in the past some demon of khorne, maybe even a demon prince or a greater one... And he surely should have seen Angron. I doubt that the violence aura could be greater than those, even for a thunder warrior.
This is intriguing, the Thunderwarriors & the Minotaurs Chapter. Given how agressive the Minotaurs are, very likely. Rumours of a few surviving Thunderwarriors is certainly a twist after the Unification Wars.
Realistically, there shouldn’t be ANY TWs left in the setting, most that survived their purge likely died within a few decades of the Great Crusade dusting off from Terra, shoving them in dreads and the like is just stupid and goes against their whole nature of being disposable, unstable, blunt weapons.
@@DP-dd6hl It would be interesting to read a story about them being the chapter that covertly helped the inquisition destroy the Celestial Lions for the lulz.
I think there should be books WITH Minotaurs, not ABOUT them. Keeps that aura of mystery and guessing about and on the off chance that the story might be done by the wrong author might do more damage to them than lack of stories, after all, all is canon until actually written
I absolutely love the Thunder Warriors! Their strength and savagery is amazing to read and hear about, and their flaws make them incredibly compelling to me. They are my second favorite legion, next to the Iron Hands.
@@praisethesun.praisedeussol6051 I know what I said, and to which legion I pay homage. It was no mistake. Death to the false Emperor! And all those whom bend the knee!
I'd recommend reading "Valdor: Birth of the Imperium" too. Same Author as "Regents Shadow" I believe, and the descriptions used for the Thunder Warriors and Minotaurs are very similar. The novel also features the Thunder Warriors working closely with a High Lord.
@@MrCitizen0 Clickbait typically refers to the practice of writing sensationalized or misleading headlines to attract clicks on a piece of content. It often relies on exaggerating claims or leaving out key information in order to encourage traffic. The term is generally used in a dismissive sense.
I think its specifically the Tartaros Pattern Dreadnought armor that gives a very Old Earth barbarian look. Not to mention that its bronze and Minotaurs are typically as large as the Thunder Warriors were. It is a very cool wink and nod to the other lore and stories which would also make sense that they stopped the genetic degradation of the Thunder Warriors by creating a chimeric gene seed of which the other half would be Iron Warriors. This again sound pretty convincing due to how similarly petty, stubborn (bull-headed) and overbearing the Minotaurs and Iron Warriors can be. One last thought is although the Thunder Warriors had "primarchs" they were leaders and not genetic templates to the warriors. Can it be that the first winged proto Primarch (the one who went crazy and had to be imprisoned).
I think the highlords are more than capable of aquiring geneseed off the books. A forgotten stash from dead chapters or traitor legion. The minotuars are the enforcers and secret police of the Highlords, whatever they need they get.
I’m willing to put my money on the high lords having formed an alliance with Eric post heresy, hell I wouldn’t be surprised if he straight up was the chapter master under yet another new name. With him having solved the problem of their life spans and stability, who knows how long he could’ve lived. I’m more surprised that he still stands on the side of the imperium.
@voidragongork I suppose. The thunder warriors were volunteers after all if I remember my lore correctly. It would make sense that their most famous member would still be loyal to the cause they had volunteered their bodies and guns to, even if they now hate the man who leads it on a personal level for betraying them. Hell, maybe he even sees the same twisted logic in it that the emperor did at the time, that they were terribly flawed and while martially superior weren’t stable enough for the next step. It’s hard to tell with 40k characters who will be vindictive and who will come to understand the emperor’s reasons sometimes.
I always assumed moloc to be a custodes overseeing a cursed chapter of iron warrior descendents. But I love the idea of them being headed by an immortal thunder warrior and his lieutenants, leading a thunder warrior/iron warrior chapter
Well we suspect cloning or perhaps some sort of psyche uploading to the successor. It’s possible after Taranis eventually died that the high lords sought to reshape the chapter to their fitting. Hence there would be a difference between the M32 and later on Minotaurs. The high lords saw the value in a warrior of legendary status and thus kept transferring his mind. I think there’s some sort of possibility for this.
Interesting theory. I am not totally buying it, but it is a possibility one cannot discard lightly....Thanks for sharing it! As a long time Minotaurs painter and player, I was comfortable enough with the Iron Warrior heritage theory. This theory certainly brings another aura of mystery about my beloved Minotaurs ....
Oh boy I'm excited for this one! Maybe someday we'll find the reason that ASTERION MOLOCH has that Guardian spear Eh? LIKE IT WAS TORN FROM THE COLD DEAD HANDS OF A CUSTODES ON MT. ARARAT ??? IT WASN'T AN ALL-OUT SLAUGHTER, the CUSTODES were ALSO KILLED as the Thunder Warriors gave just as hard as they got! And there were Thunder Warriors that escaped and there's stories of ASTARTES being sent after a Thunder Warrior like an entire Squad of Marines being sent after ONE Thunder Warrior and NONE of them coming back, literally getting torn limb from limb by barehanded Thunder Warriors! LIKE THESE DUDES WERE ABSOLUTE BEASTS! So yeah it would make perfect sense, AND I HOPE THIS STORY ARC DOESN'T JUST DIE AT THE END OF A G.W. "NARRATIVE TO NO WHERE" BLACK HOLE LIKE SO MANY OTHER GOOD LORE HAS GONE TO DIE...(CLONEGRIM, THE YNNARI, THE IRON HANDS LEGION HAVING REVENANT MARINES, THE SILENT KING, ETC...)
Considering how the thunder warriors were betrayed by the emperor, it would make sense if this were the case why they're more loyal to the high lords of terra than the emperor. Also they seem a lot more interesting this way, I've never been a fan of them before
From this, I could see Eric helping other thunder warriors. Could the minotaur be a chapter of gene seed thunder warriors? They would love their assignments against other space marines and hate working with other space marines it would also explain the extreme secrecy, though I doubt every member or even half the chapter are thunder warriors, if any, actually are
@adams5613 didn't the video say Eric experimented with putting captured gene seed into himself to fix his problems and succeeded. I'm saying if he or the high lords knew were to get more thunder warriors they might replicate putting the gene seed in them
It would make more sense I believe that they were the 1st primaris marines thousand of years before they were ever released. Hence they were always a little better. And Moloc could be anything really.
@@DP-dd6hl Well, He would have had to create a new geneseed type and not just, as Rho pointed out in Outcast Dead, created a stabilizing addition to the TW genome. That the TW's were 'Better' is questionable. They were a little stronger and tougher than the production marines but the flaws, especially the mental ones, were vastly greater. Now not to say that in 10,000 years he couldn't create a TW/SM hybrid but it took Cawl 10,000 years WITH backing and the tech and the secret knowledge and the access to the gene vaults to create primarus.
@@adams5613who's to say that they didn't just implant thunder warrior survivors with the geneseed and it just worked? Sometimes scientific advances are made entirely by accident or luck. Also I believe it logical to assume that the actual development of the Primaris was done much quicker than 10k years. The R&D was only one part of the process. Cawl had to advance up the ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus to even get to the point where he could start the program, then build secret facilities that wouldn't be discovered by the Inquisition, the rest of the Mechanicus, Space Marine chapters, the forces of Chaos, the Dark Eldar and anyone else who might be interested in a fancy new biolab/bunker complex working with Space Marine Geneseed, then start R&D, then build new secret facilities for production and stasis storage, and then and only then can he work on recruiting, implanting, indoctrinating, and arming a force of Space Marines large enough to rival the 20 legions of Astartes that fought the Great Crusade in terms of size. The last steps would be the most time consuming of the process, especially due to the downright autistic levels of secrecy that would have to be involved.
I keep saying that the imperium needs to reinvest in the thunder warriors. Just keep them in stasis and drop 100 of them on a battlefield when you need them.
Ok, I've waited 30+ years for the Unification Wars Box set and novels.... im still in. The Outcast Dead was awesome with the Taranis revelation story. What makes this world so fascinating is the untapped stories to come.
I really like the idea that the Minotaurs are a Chapter based off of Thunderwarrior and Astartes gene seed that are secretly aligned to the High lords of terra. They have no "Primarch" per se but Molach may in fact BE their Primarch in the form of the Gang leader TW who has survived all this time. Having a force that is NOT Astartes and not really aligned with them ads some intrigue to the story.
Thank you for this video, it's one of the most interesting and plausible theory that i have ever heard. I really appreciate it, as a master you just gave me the idea for a new plot in my rpg chronicle. 😊 And you have gained a new subscriber my friend! 😁
Well considering Taranis is a Celtic thunder god & Arik basically means lord in Scandinavian , Germanic and hebrew I think it’s safe to say that Arik Taranis was a military name given to him once inducted into the thunder warriors ( very secular lol ) Babu is definitely Indian and considering where the big E was based during the unification wars it would make sense that his initial troops would be recruited from that area . So maybe he reverted to his old name plus the Brahma bull as a clan totem would make sense.Also consider the name Ariston Greek for best or prime etc and Moloch the bull headed Canaanite god sometimes associated with the Canaanite THUNDER god BAAL . Bearing in mind the utter disdain Minotaurs have for other astartes and even Custodians it certainly resembles a thunder warrior attitude. I know I’m reaching but it would be cool if Moloch was indeed either the personality or indeed the actual cyborg of Babu Ghota . However it is GW & the whole character was probably named after a waiter in GW favourite Indian restaurant back in nineties Nottingham 😂
I doubt Thunder Warriors would have any loyalty to the imperium though lol. I always liked the thought of loyalist World Eaters or as another commenter suggested one time, Loyalist alpha legion coming back into the fold.
I mean for all intensive purposes the emporer is dead and he wouldn't have a shot at getting close enough to do anything to the throne so if vengeance on the Astartes for betraying them he's in the best position possible
Spoiler... Arik Taranis never held a grudge against the emperor because he knew his kind were unstable. But he and his lieutenant found a way to incorporate some of the organs and geneseed tech onto their physiology.
@@tappingninjamy issue with the war hound gene seed idea is that they became berserkers and extra brutal due to outside circumstances with the butcher’s nails
The Outcast Dead was a surprisingly really great book. I went in not having any expectations and really enjoyed it. Fantastic writing the whole way through.
It was a really interesting book. The only wierd parts were the World Eater punching through a Custodes' armor (wut?) and the Thousand Son somehow reaching into himself psychically and destroying his connection to the warp. Idk if that is even possible based on all other existing lore lol. Still, I love this book for all the questions it presents
The Outcast Dead was an interesting book. Unfortunatelly, suffered from some really stupid moments, but i remember how much thunder warriors carried it in terms of hype. From the suspicion who can be the gang lord, to the reveal when everyone were like "oh, shit".
I think the Thunder Warrior escaped the cull with inside help. In exchange for saving him, and providing the gene labs/info/materials, he helped craft the Minotaurs.
I like the idea that Tyrannis just slowly rebuilds the chapter as he obtains more gene seed. After the Siege of Terra, the battlefield was ripe with traitor and loyalist gene seed. Terra is a sprawling enough place that they could be underground for centuries, only to pop up claiming they've always been there.
This is so friggin cool. I don't know about you, but I love the stories of the genetic bastard children of The Emperor. When the time came for my custom chapter, I knew they wouldn't be legitimate successors of Guilliman. That's no fun at all!
The Minotaurs must know their own heretical heritage, they have at their hands any and all resources they might need. I could see genetic information being one of them. I believe they are IW successors, they are so proud and pragmatic like the Iron Warriors which would be why they would distrust even the Emperor's own Custodes. For if even Iron can rust, then why not Gold?
On a day Wolf Lord Rho will get a visit from the Minotaurs, the custodes, the alpha legion, the space wolves, the inquisition, the dark angels just to "talk" to him. and while they arguing the Blood Ravens will move in and "borrow" him with everything he has.
One thing a lot of people miss out on looking for evidence is in the name of the chapter. Minotaur's in the mythos were creatures created out of tragedy, half man half bull. Taranis creating this chimeric gene seed (Half Luna Wolves Half Thunder Warriors) as a result of tragedy (short life span and the culling). The half man can be the more stable civilized side with the astarte's genes and the half bull being both the crest of Taranis and reflecting the savage nature of the thunder warriors. The mythological minotaur's targeted man, to whom they are half made, just as the chapter half made of astartes genes specializes in targeting astartes.
Asterion Moloch roughly means Star and Power (that demands sacrifice). Chimeric gene seed, Iron warrior plus “X”. This fits with the mythological origin on Asterion the Minotaur. The “X” factor being taken from a Thunder Warrior makes sense too. Recruitment, tithes from the best of “Athens”, probably Terra. Not unlike the Custodies, maybe the High Lords are syphoning off their recruits? This would give the High Lords control of the Chapter if they cannot reproduce themselves. The mental reprogramming is the maze used to contain the beast.
Iron Warriors & War Hounds gene seed chimera made from thunder warriors which explains the siege warfare, high attrition rate, the close combat prowess, the augmetics and the high rate of casualty replacement
It makes sense because High Lords would want a "Loyalist" Chapter that has no loyalty to the Emperor an "Ace in the hole". That would explain why the Lord's keeps them exceptionally well equipped and use them against other Astartes. They have no love loss for the Emperor's Angels and would have an incentive to take them out with extreme prejudice.
He did have gene laboratories and he did get his hands on uncorrupted gene seed . So it’s bears out that he achieved something in regards to a stable strain.
My money is on a mono-gene seed, several seeds including pure stocks were combined as has been done before in warriors like alpha primus and uniques like letu (L-2). Signs of amono stock include warriors with greater size more akin to a true primaris old guard vs cawls different branch of warriors that achieve similar results with new organs and tweaks to old. So its. 68 mystang with a big block v8, vs a Lamborghini that has been meticulously refined and redrawn to be a similar vehicle in speed but more complicated.
In the novel, the custodian kill a primaris belonging to the Minotaurs. So Cawl know which peimarch they come from. Guilliman forbid him to use traitor geneseed so... The mistery remain.
Following the culling, Taranis and the Thunder Warriors would have no love for the Emperor, but wouldn’t be drawn the unruly nature of chaos. Can vividly picture them giving their allegiance to the High Lords of Terra, a decent second option. The HLT would see the value of having their own super soldiers, just in case the need arises. Taranis would be 12,000 years old during the 41st millennium, so it would make sense that he would be heavily mechanized, much like Maloc.
has to be Death Guard and that would go some way to explain how two took down one of Valerian's Custodes squad on their way to the finale at the Cathedral
Considering a Thunder Warrior nearly killed Valdor.... yeah I can see at least some of the Minotaurs being original Thunder Warriors, with the reast being a mix of Thunder Warrior & Astartes DNA.
There is a simpler option. Rather than thunder warriors survivig the cull, it is totally possibly that more thunder warriors were made during the Horus heresy. It is established that they were better melee fighters than Astartes and were easier to produce. In the run up to the siege of Terra it would make sense to crank out as many as possible. Of course, they could not reveal the tuth because telling the defending loyalist space marines that these were their precusors and were eliminated once their purpose was fulfilled would not be the smartest move. All they had to do was pretend they were loyalist element of one of the traitor legions (likely world eaters) and no one would ask many questions.
Thunder Warriors surviving up to the current setting is a bit of a stretch, personally agree with the off the books statements by the author that they're of Iron Warriors origins or at the least chimeric. Being led by a retired Custodes is also more plausible.
Tyranis was considered the primarch of the thunder warriors, if so then that would explain why a custodies who saw Moloch doubt if he could kill the space marine. If that is now tyranis
If you consider the old Terran ninth legion blood rites ie consuming the brains & therefore the personality and knowledge of the previous legion master , maybe the Minotaurs perform something similar, constantly consuming and inheriting Taranis personality and knowledge who knows.
It would be an interesting development if the high lords recovered the gene lab. It would explain the minotaurs and possibly others like carcharodons and soul drinkers who are rumored to use chimeric geneseed or traitor geneseed. Maybe they even used the geneseed of the outcast dead for the chimeric geneseed and their origins have been in front of us for years at this point.
unless he had some kind of way to halt aging. It would have to have been heavily modified considering even space marines and custodes age over thousands of years.
@henrypaleveda7760 maybe. But even rejuv tech only can stave off about 400 years of aging (see the cardinal before the seige of vraks, I forget his name). Possibly a dreadnought?
Can Astartes gene-seed be made from non-Primarchs [or the Emperor]. What if gene-seed was produced from a Thunder Warrior, a Custodian (e.g. Constantine Valdor) or a perpetual like Malcador ?
It makes sense the first Thunder Warriors would be the greatest and most stable. Once the technique for crafting them was converted to mass production, quality control would predictably decline. Much like the later Spartan iterations in HALO
I think it's reasonable to speculate that the Minotaurs are related to the Thunder warriors if you look at the development of space marines and their gears. During the reunification war, the emperor was on a time constraint and he needed high performance soldiers and needed them urgently. That's why he created the thunder warriors, very powerful, easy to produce but short lived because longevity wasn't his main concern for the time. Then came the space marines which are weaker but live longer and have a higher requirement to recruit. Even space marines gear moved from high performance, high cost and maintenance pre heresy to affordable and low maintenance oriented after the heresy. The potential to create long living Thunder warriors has always been there, it was proven by the fact that there were few surviving Thunder Warriors all the way to the heresy through the implantation of space marines geneseeds into them. There just wasn't an incentive to create long living Thunder Warriors. The High Lords however, have time, resources and incentive to invest into the creation so they obviously would want to improve the Thunder Warrior when money is not a problem with them.
Maybe he will show up during the horus fight and help dorn escape with big es body so thats why they end up working for the high lords and maybe dorn decides to give him a imperial fist chapter to run after as the start of the minatours.
What if Molok was simply a descendant of Taranos ? Not necessarily from many generations, as Arik managed to cure himself of the short lifespan, and seeing that Astartes have again an extended lifespan, both might potentially stack their effects
The chapter master is a retired custodes form certain, though leading a force of cataegis with geneseed implantations would explain much about tjeir chapter culture
Here's an idea. Arik Taranis is kept in stasis in a sarcophagus like a dreadnoughts. Whenever Moloch dies a Minotaur is given Thunder Warrior augments and sat in a chair with a special helmet placed over his head, a copy of Ariks mental enneagrams are downloaded into his brain, overwriting his personality, and maybe through some warp shenanigans his soul comes in contact with Ariks soul, which tears into that of the marine and remolds it into a copy of of Ariks soul.
Considering the Thunder Warriors were made by genetic enhancements of varying kinds (no two were ever the same, as was the case for their armour too), while the Legiones Astartes were all created uniformly using a mix of genetic enhancements, hypno indoctrination and implantation of gene seed unique to their respective Primarchs; and the fact that even the longest surviving Thunder Warriors wouldn't have lived long past the Horus Heresy despite their escape from their culling by the Emperor, I'd say no, the Thunder warriors are not forebears of the Minators Chapter.
It’s not really possible for the Minotaurs to appear till after the heresy cause the high lords didn’t gain real power until after the primarchs disappeared
If we ever get thunder warriors, I hope its more Rogue group like some human pirates throw in some hive scum one or two thunder warriors given they are op. As for faction no idea maybe like a merc faction.
Unfortunately i think it'd be a bit of a stretch to think minotaurs are somehow related to the thunder warriors. I know, i know, we all want the thunder warriors. But moloch is even better, he's a monster of an astartes
Shafted by the emperor, who with his custodes, and astartes, actively murdered thunder warriors, why would any of them have anything to do with the imperium or astartes?
There are so many problems tying the minotaurs to the thunder warriors. - The custodes would have come sniffing around, and they kill TWs on sight. - The high lords would never knowingly permit a TW to lead an astartes chapter, especially one they are supporting so discretely. Especially since one of them is the captain general of the custodes - any thunder warrior would gladly explain the truth of the battle of mt Ararat and shatter an astartes's faith in the emperor. - the minotaurs only came around in the 36th millennium, its a big stretch to have a TW survive that long and somehow integrate himself into the chapter. - Why would a thunder warrior join an astartes chapter, the creatures made to replace them, and slaughtered them? I could go on but those are the major complications. This sounds like fanfiction and wishful thinking.
![The Complete Story of Destiny! From origins to Shadowkeep [Timeline and Lore explained]](/img/n.gif)
I have encountered many formidable warriors in my time. Valoris, of course, was reckoned the greatest alive in the Imperium save the primarch himself. And yet, just there, in that place, I can say without hesitation that Asterion Moloc, Chapter Master of the Minotaurs, exuded the most powerful stench of violence I had ever been in the presence of.
-valarian of the custodes
Well... I think that the authors sometimes exagerate a little bit.
I think that a custodes shoukd have met in the past some demon of khorne, maybe even a demon prince or a greater one...
And he surely should have seen Angron.
I doubt that the violence aura could be greater than those, even for a thunder warrior.
This is intriguing, the Thunderwarriors & the Minotaurs Chapter. Given how agressive the Minotaurs are, very likely. Rumours of a few surviving Thunderwarriors is certainly a twist after the Unification Wars.
My guess is, if there are any Thunder Warriors left "alive", youll only find them in the most ancient of Dreadnaughts.
@@arbhall7572 Trazyn has at least one
@@arbhall7572a walking Land Raider!!! That would be awesome!!
Realistically, there shouldn’t be ANY TWs left in the setting, most that survived their purge likely died within a few decades of the Great Crusade dusting off from Terra, shoving them in dreads and the like is just stupid and goes against their whole nature of being disposable, unstable, blunt weapons.
The minotaurs need their own proper novels. Its such a let down GW doesnt make it happen.
Who wants to read a book about them attacking loyalist chapters?
@@Macwylee that is an unfortunate side affect of Imperium politics. But they did great against the necrons, chaos and others
@@DP-dd6hl It would be interesting to read a story about them being the chapter that covertly helped the inquisition destroy the Celestial Lions for the lulz.
@@Macwylee that would be so cruel lolol
I think there should be books WITH Minotaurs, not ABOUT them. Keeps that aura of mystery and guessing about and on the off chance that the story might be done by the wrong author might do more damage to them than lack of stories, after all, all is canon until actually written
I absolutely love the Thunder Warriors! Their strength and savagery is amazing to read and hear about, and their flaws make them incredibly compelling to me. They are my second favorite legion, next to the Iron Hands.
For the Xth Legion and Ferrus!
@@d.staten1958 The flesh is weak, but deeds endure.
Iron Within, Iron Without!
@@theganjacologist2819wrong legion mate
@@praisethesun.praisedeussol6051 I know what I said, and to which legion I pay homage. It was no mistake. Death to the false Emperor! And all those whom bend the knee!
I'd recommend reading "Valdor: Birth of the Imperium" too.
Same Author as "Regents Shadow" I believe, and the descriptions used for the Thunder Warriors and Minotaurs are very similar.
The novel also features the Thunder Warriors working closely with a High Lord.
I'm sure the High Lords of Terra know The Minotaurs origin.
Iron Warriors/War Hounds chimera.
@@PumpkinHoard Yeah that's what I was thinking!
I know the high lords know this video was pure click bait
@@MrCitizen0 Clickbait typically refers to the practice of writing sensationalized or misleading headlines to attract clicks on a piece of content. It often relies on exaggerating claims or leaving out key information in order to encourage traffic. The term is generally used in a dismissive sense.
@Duppyman695 this channel is getting more amd more click bait everyday
I think its specifically the Tartaros Pattern Dreadnought armor that gives a very Old Earth barbarian look. Not to mention that its bronze and Minotaurs are typically as large as the Thunder Warriors were.
It is a very cool wink and nod to the other lore and stories which would also make sense that they stopped the genetic degradation of the Thunder Warriors by creating a chimeric gene seed of which the other half would be Iron Warriors.
This again sound pretty convincing due to how similarly petty, stubborn (bull-headed) and overbearing the Minotaurs and Iron Warriors can be.
One last thought is although the Thunder Warriors had "primarchs" they were leaders and not genetic templates to the warriors. Can it be that the first winged proto Primarch (the one who went crazy and had to be imprisoned).
What is Tartarots Pattern Dreadnought? Maybe contempor? They still have them and many to be exact.
@@vitaliyred622He meant Tartaros Pattern Tactical Dreadnought Armour, the official name of the Tartaros Pattern Terminator Armour.
I think the highlords are more than capable of aquiring geneseed off the books. A forgotten stash from dead chapters or traitor legion. The minotuars are the enforcers and secret police of the Highlords, whatever they need they get.
I’m willing to put my money on the high lords having formed an alliance with Eric post heresy, hell I wouldn’t be surprised if he straight up was the chapter master under yet another new name. With him having solved the problem of their life spans and stability, who knows how long he could’ve lived. I’m more surprised that he still stands on the side of the imperium.
@voidragongork I suppose. The thunder warriors were volunteers after all if I remember my lore correctly. It would make sense that their most famous member would still be loyal to the cause they had volunteered their bodies and guns to, even if they now hate the man who leads it on a personal level for betraying them. Hell, maybe he even sees the same twisted logic in it that the emperor did at the time, that they were terribly flawed and while martially superior weren’t stable enough for the next step. It’s hard to tell with 40k characters who will be vindictive and who will come to understand the emperor’s reasons sometimes.
I always assumed moloc to be a custodes overseeing a cursed chapter of iron warrior descendents.
But I love the idea of them being headed by an immortal thunder warrior and his lieutenants, leading a thunder warrior/iron warrior chapter
It does neatly deproblematize their seeming specialization in purging "fellow" Space Marines, doesn't it?
Well we suspect cloning or perhaps some sort of psyche uploading to the successor. It’s possible after Taranis eventually died that the high lords sought to reshape the chapter to their fitting. Hence there would be a difference between the M32 and later on Minotaurs. The high lords saw the value in a warrior of legendary status and thus kept transferring his mind. I think there’s some sort of possibility for this.
It could be the reason why they are a lap dog to the high lords. Refuse to work for us and we will spill your secret.
The T warriors are my fav .. just love the rough aspect and i can only imagine how brutal they had to be to retake Terra
Interesting theory. I am not totally buying it, but it is a possibility one cannot discard lightly....Thanks for sharing it! As a long time Minotaurs painter and player, I was comfortable enough with the Iron Warrior heritage theory. This theory certainly brings another aura of mystery about my beloved Minotaurs ....
Astarian Molok Arik Taranos would almost be an anagram plus a couple letters. Needs another r, gets an extra M and O
You need even more letters when you consider it's Asterion Moloch (slight facepalm)
@@xgzav3488 MOLOC
Oh boy I'm excited for this one! Maybe someday we'll find the reason that ASTERION MOLOCH has that Guardian spear Eh?
LIKE IT WAS TORN FROM THE COLD DEAD HANDS OF A CUSTODES ON
MT. ARARAT ???
IT WASN'T AN ALL-OUT SLAUGHTER, the CUSTODES were ALSO KILLED as the Thunder Warriors gave just as hard as they got! And there were Thunder Warriors that escaped and there's stories of ASTARTES being sent after a Thunder Warrior like an entire Squad of Marines being sent after ONE Thunder Warrior and NONE of them coming back, literally getting torn limb from limb by barehanded Thunder Warriors! LIKE THESE DUDES WERE ABSOLUTE BEASTS! So yeah it would make perfect sense, AND I HOPE THIS STORY ARC DOESN'T JUST DIE AT THE END OF A G.W. "NARRATIVE TO NO WHERE" BLACK HOLE LIKE SO MANY OTHER GOOD LORE HAS GONE TO DIE...(CLONEGRIM, THE YNNARI, THE IRON HANDS LEGION HAVING REVENANT MARINES, THE SILENT KING, ETC...)
Considering how the thunder warriors were betrayed by the emperor, it would make sense if this were the case why they're more loyal to the high lords of terra than the emperor. Also they seem a lot more interesting this way, I've never been a fan of them before
From this, I could see Eric helping other thunder warriors. Could the minotaur be a chapter of gene seed thunder warriors? They would love their assignments against other space marines and hate working with other space marines it would also explain the extreme secrecy, though I doubt every member or even half the chapter are thunder warriors, if any, actually are
Little problem; thunder warriors didn't have gene seed. SM's were the ones that had it from their primarchs for mass production.
@adams5613 didn't the video say Eric experimented with putting captured gene seed into himself to fix his problems and succeeded. I'm saying if he or the high lords knew were to get more thunder warriors they might replicate putting the gene seed in them
It would make more sense I believe that they were the 1st primaris marines thousand of years before they were ever released. Hence they were always a little better.
And Moloc could be anything really.
@@DP-dd6hl Well, He would have had to create a new geneseed type and not just, as Rho pointed out in Outcast Dead, created a stabilizing addition to the TW genome. That the TW's were 'Better' is questionable. They were a little stronger and tougher than the production marines but the flaws, especially the mental ones, were vastly greater. Now not to say that in 10,000 years he couldn't create a TW/SM hybrid but it took Cawl 10,000 years WITH backing and the tech and the secret knowledge and the access to the gene vaults to create primarus.
@@adams5613who's to say that they didn't just implant thunder warrior survivors with the geneseed and it just worked? Sometimes scientific advances are made entirely by accident or luck.
Also I believe it logical to assume that the actual development of the Primaris was done much quicker than 10k years. The R&D was only one part of the process. Cawl had to advance up the ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus to even get to the point where he could start the program, then build secret facilities that wouldn't be discovered by the Inquisition, the rest of the Mechanicus, Space Marine chapters, the forces of Chaos, the Dark Eldar and anyone else who might be interested in a fancy new biolab/bunker complex working with Space Marine Geneseed, then start R&D, then build new secret facilities for production and stasis storage, and then and only then can he work on recruiting, implanting, indoctrinating, and arming a force of Space Marines large enough to rival the 20 legions of Astartes that fought the Great Crusade in terms of size. The last steps would be the most time consuming of the process, especially due to the downright autistic levels of secrecy that would have to be involved.
I keep saying that the imperium needs to reinvest in the thunder warriors. Just keep them in stasis and drop 100 of them on a battlefield when you need them.
I know it's been a minute since I tuned in, but it is so good to hear you start off with "Wolf Lorf Rho" again! Vlka Fenryka
It's things like this that add continuity and depth to the series. I would love this to be brought into the lore.
[a near death man raises his hands to the heavens in the sign of the aquila]
Okay this would make for an interesting history of their chapter. Can anyone tell me which novels to read for Minotaurs
Ok, I've waited 30+ years for the Unification Wars Box set and novels.... im still in.
The Outcast Dead was awesome with the Taranis revelation story. What makes this world so fascinating is the untapped stories to come.
I really like the idea that the Minotaurs are a Chapter based off of Thunderwarrior and Astartes gene seed that are secretly aligned to the High lords of terra. They have no "Primarch" per se but Molach may in fact BE their Primarch in the form of the Gang leader TW who has survived all this time. Having a force that is NOT Astartes and not really aligned with them ads some intrigue to the story.
Damn we NEED a series of stories about this specifically. A TW surviving secretly and his experiments. So cool.
It would be very interesting, having Thunder Warriors being part of the Minotaur basis. I'm intrigued.
Thank you for this video, it's one of the most interesting and plausible theory that i have ever heard.
I really appreciate it, as a master you just gave me the idea for a new plot in my rpg chronicle. 😊
And you have gained a new subscriber my friend! 😁
Well considering Taranis is a Celtic thunder god & Arik basically means lord in Scandinavian , Germanic and hebrew I think it’s safe to say that Arik Taranis was a military name given to him once inducted into the thunder warriors ( very secular lol ) Babu is definitely Indian and considering where the big E was based during the unification wars it would make sense that his initial troops would be recruited from that area . So maybe he reverted to his old name plus the Brahma bull as a clan totem would make sense.Also consider the name Ariston Greek for best or prime etc and Moloch the bull headed Canaanite god sometimes associated with the Canaanite THUNDER god BAAL . Bearing in mind the utter disdain Minotaurs have for other astartes and even Custodians it certainly resembles a thunder warrior attitude. I know I’m reaching but it would be cool if Moloch was indeed either the personality or indeed the actual cyborg of Babu Ghota . However it is GW & the whole character was probably named after a waiter in GW favourite Indian restaurant back in nineties Nottingham 😂
What if Asterion Molloch is this very same thunder warrior that figured out how to live forever it would explain alot
I doubt Thunder Warriors would have any loyalty to the imperium though lol. I always liked the thought of loyalist World Eaters or as another commenter suggested one time, Loyalist alpha legion coming back into the fold.
I mean for all intensive purposes the emporer is dead and he wouldn't have a shot at getting close enough to do anything to the throne so if vengeance on the Astartes for betraying them he's in the best position possible
Spoiler... Arik Taranis never held a grudge against the emperor because he knew his kind were unstable. But he and his lieutenant found a way to incorporate some of the organs and geneseed tech onto their physiology.
@@reddragon4482 The Minotaur's are loyal to the High Lords. Mostly because they get the best gears and treatment that way.
@@stonedragon30 Yes, I've read up on them and painted some, and your point is?
Thunder warriors with modified Iron Warrior gene seed. There’s your answer.
modified Iron Warrior/War Hound gene seed*
@@tappingninjamy issue with the war hound gene seed idea is that they became berserkers and extra brutal due to outside circumstances with the butcher’s nails
Makes a lot of sense when you factor in the fact that the minotaurs don't like or work well with other Astartes chapter.
The Outcast Dead was a surprisingly really great book. I went in not having any expectations and really enjoyed it. Fantastic writing the whole way through.
It was a really interesting book. The only wierd parts were the World Eater punching through a Custodes' armor (wut?) and the Thousand Son somehow reaching into himself psychically and destroying his connection to the warp. Idk if that is even possible based on all other existing lore lol. Still, I love this book for all the questions it presents
Great theory and narration as per Rho
The Outcast Dead was an interesting book. Unfortunatelly, suffered from some really stupid moments, but i remember how much thunder warriors carried it in terms of hype. From the suspicion who can be the gang lord, to the reveal when everyone were like "oh, shit".
I think the Thunder Warrior escaped the cull with inside help. In exchange for saving him, and providing the gene labs/info/materials, he helped craft the Minotaurs.
I like the idea that Tyrannis just slowly rebuilds the chapter as he obtains more gene seed. After the Siege of Terra, the battlefield was ripe with traitor and loyalist gene seed. Terra is a sprawling enough place that they could be underground for centuries, only to pop up claiming they've always been there.
After The Outcast Dead, do we ever hear anything more about Babu finishing his project? It was a great storyline that i think just went nowhere.
I just finished listening to the audio book version of The Outcast Dead. We need more novels centered around the Thunder Warriors. :)
This is so friggin cool. I don't know about you, but I love the stories of the genetic bastard children of The Emperor. When the time came for my custom chapter, I knew they wouldn't be legitimate successors of Guilliman. That's no fun at all!
The Minotaurs must know their own heretical heritage, they have at their hands any and all resources they might need. I could see genetic information being one of them. I believe they are IW successors, they are so proud and pragmatic like the Iron Warriors which would be why they would distrust even the Emperor's own Custodes. For if even Iron can rust, then why not Gold?
Gold can't rust...
It was confirmed. They'll attack Imperial Fists without provocation.
The minotaurs creator already confirmed many years ago they're IW.
@@muglypunt968The Aqua Regia in my backpack :
@@amargwari2431 I see you've been drinking that warp juice. Lay off it bud rots the brain
Always loved the TW. Even though they were insane murderers. Felt like were done wrong by big E and the custodians
It's not a leap when you take the Riven Hound into account, he's almost certainly a thunderwarrior who was elevated to the warhounds.
Thunder Warriors led by Ferris Manus’ body with a cyborg head
On a day Wolf Lord Rho will get a visit from the Minotaurs, the custodes, the alpha legion, the space wolves, the inquisition, the dark angels just to "talk" to him. and while they arguing the Blood Ravens will move in and "borrow" him with everything he has.
One thing a lot of people miss out on looking for evidence is in the name of the chapter. Minotaur's in the mythos were creatures created out of tragedy, half man half bull. Taranis creating this chimeric gene seed (Half Luna Wolves Half Thunder Warriors) as a result of tragedy (short life span and the culling). The half man can be the more stable civilized side with the astarte's genes and the half bull being both the crest of Taranis and reflecting the savage nature of the thunder warriors. The mythological minotaur's targeted man, to whom they are half made, just as the chapter half made of astartes genes specializes in targeting astartes.
Asterion Moloch roughly means Star and Power (that demands sacrifice).
Chimeric gene seed, Iron warrior plus “X”. This fits with the mythological origin on Asterion the Minotaur. The “X” factor being taken from a Thunder Warrior makes sense too.
Recruitment, tithes from the best of “Athens”, probably Terra. Not unlike the Custodies, maybe the High Lords are syphoning off their recruits? This would give the High Lords control of the Chapter if they cannot reproduce themselves.
The mental reprogramming is the maze used to contain the beast.
This is very interesting. Further investigation may be warranted.
Iron Warriors & War Hounds gene seed chimera made from thunder warriors which explains the siege warfare, high attrition rate, the close combat prowess, the augmetics and the high rate of casualty replacement
It makes sense because High Lords would want a "Loyalist" Chapter that has no loyalty to the Emperor an "Ace in the hole". That would explain why the Lord's keeps them exceptionally well equipped and use them against other Astartes. They have no love loss for the Emperor's Angels and would have an incentive to take them out with extreme prejudice.
This was a great one !
He did have gene laboratories and he did get his hands on uncorrupted gene seed . So it’s bears out that he achieved something in regards to a stable strain.
My money is on a mono-gene seed, several seeds including pure stocks were combined as has been done before in warriors like alpha primus and uniques like letu (L-2).
Signs of amono stock include warriors with greater size more akin to a true primaris old guard vs cawls different branch of warriors that achieve similar results with new organs and tweaks to old. So its. 68 mystang with a big block v8, vs a Lamborghini that has been meticulously refined and redrawn to be a similar vehicle in speed but more complicated.
Asterion Moloc is Arik Taranis' grandson.
He is a 3rd Gen Thunder Warrior.
That is why he does not take off his armour or Thunder Pants.
Mount Ararat, not Arat.
In the novel, the custodian kill a primaris belonging to the Minotaurs. So Cawl know which peimarch they come from. Guilliman forbid him to use traitor geneseed so... The mistery remain.
The minos also killed a custode in the same novel
And Cael always dies what he’s told…..
The Outcast Dead was a great book. I've read it a couple of times.
Following the culling, Taranis and the Thunder Warriors would have no love for the Emperor, but wouldn’t be drawn the unruly nature of chaos. Can vividly picture them giving their allegiance to the High Lords of Terra, a decent second option. The HLT would see the value of having their own super soldiers, just in case the need arises.
Taranis would be 12,000 years old during the 41st millennium, so it would make sense that he would be heavily mechanized, much like Maloc.
has to be Death Guard and that would go some way to explain how two took down one of Valerian's Custodes squad on their way to the finale at the Cathedral
That might explain their vehement dislike of other space marines and the fact that they target them specifically.
I wish I remember the source but I remember reading that they are confirmed for IW genes. They'll attack Imperial Fists without Provocation.
They could be both, many CSM are actually spliced from loyalist marines with now containing half and half geneseed. Warsmith HonSou is half IF
@@sorufa888 You're right. I should have clarified that they contain IW genes but could be hybridize with another chapter.
Considering a Thunder Warrior nearly killed Valdor.... yeah I can see at least some of the Minotaurs being original Thunder Warriors, with the reast being a mix of Thunder Warrior & Astartes DNA.
Eadwine Brown stated they were Iron Warriors gene seed and that they weren't the same as the berserkers from the cursed founding.
Both could be true, considering the gene-seed they got to stabilize the thunder-warriors was that of a traitor.
There is a simpler option. Rather than thunder warriors survivig the cull, it is totally possibly that more thunder warriors were made during the Horus heresy. It is established that they were better melee fighters than Astartes and were easier to produce. In the run up to the siege of Terra it would make sense to crank out as many as possible. Of course, they could not reveal the tuth because telling the defending loyalist space marines that these were their precusors and were eliminated once their purpose was fulfilled would not be the smartest move. All they had to do was pretend they were loyalist element of one of the traitor legions (likely world eaters) and no one would ask many questions.
Gw. Please give us Warhammer 20k. I would love to play the unification wars.
Guilliman should be curious
Thunder Warriors surviving up to the current setting is a bit of a stretch, personally agree with the off the books statements by the author that they're of Iron Warriors origins or at the least chimeric.
Being led by a retired Custodes is also more plausible.
Tyranis was considered the primarch of the thunder warriors, if so then that would explain why a custodies who saw Moloch doubt if he could kill the space marine. If that is now tyranis
If you consider the old Terran ninth legion blood rites ie consuming the brains & therefore the personality and knowledge of the previous legion master , maybe the Minotaurs perform something similar, constantly consuming and inheriting Taranis personality and knowledge who knows.
It would be an interesting development if the high lords recovered the gene lab. It would explain the minotaurs and possibly others like carcharodons and soul drinkers who are rumored to use chimeric geneseed or traitor geneseed. Maybe they even used the geneseed of the outcast dead for the chimeric geneseed and their origins have been in front of us for years at this point.
I can see Arik being used as a source of genetic material for the creation of the Minotaurs. But Arik himself, i doubt it.
unless he had some kind of way to halt aging. It would have to have been heavily modified considering even space marines and custodes age over thousands of years.
@henrypaleveda7760 maybe. But even rejuv tech only can stave off about 400 years of aging (see the cardinal before the seige of vraks, I forget his name). Possibly a dreadnought?
Can Astartes gene-seed be made from non-Primarchs [or the Emperor]. What if gene-seed was produced from a Thunder Warrior, a Custodian (e.g. Constantine Valdor) or a perpetual like Malcador ?
The Emperor does have gene seed. Given to Banana Guard and the Grey Knights.
It makes sense the first Thunder Warriors would be the greatest and most stable. Once the technique for crafting them was converted to mass production, quality control would predictably decline. Much like the later Spartan iterations in HALO
I think it's reasonable to speculate that the Minotaurs are related to the Thunder warriors if you look at the development of space marines and their gears. During the reunification war, the emperor was on a time constraint and he needed high performance soldiers and needed them urgently. That's why he created the thunder warriors, very powerful, easy to produce but short lived because longevity wasn't his main concern for the time. Then came the space marines which are weaker but live longer and have a higher requirement to recruit. Even space marines gear moved from high performance, high cost and maintenance pre heresy to affordable and low maintenance oriented after the heresy. The potential to create long living Thunder warriors has always been there, it was proven by the fact that there were few surviving Thunder Warriors all the way to the heresy through the implantation of space marines geneseeds into them. There just wasn't an incentive to create long living Thunder Warriors. The High Lords however, have time, resources and incentive to invest into the creation so they obviously would want to improve the Thunder Warrior when money is not a problem with them.
Y'know, we don't actually know what happened to Endryd Harr's body......
Maybe he will show up during the horus fight and help dorn escape with big es body so thats why they end up working for the high lords and maybe dorn decides to give him a imperial fist chapter to run after as the start of the minatours.
Would Be A Pretty Ingenious Tie In
Cannon
What if Molok was simply a descendant of Taranos ? Not necessarily from many generations, as Arik managed to cure himself of the short lifespan, and seeing that Astartes have again an extended lifespan, both might potentially stack their effects
Do you think GW is lazy sometimes when it comes to lore?
Do you think? Really bro? Sly marbo.....
@muglypunt968 Leave the Primarch of the second legion out of this.😂
@@markmueller-rougier3098he's actually a shard of the emperor. Well, the emperor is a shard of Sly Marbo to be precise
@@markmueller-rougier3098 pffft the second legion primach wishes he was sly marbo
The Minotaurs are Gene-Sons of Renn, one of the missing Primarchs.
Again, very interesting...
The chapter master is a retired custodes form certain, though leading a force of cataegis with geneseed implantations would explain much about tjeir chapter culture
i think it would be rad if they were the thunder warriors chapter, it would give them a ton of flavor
That would explain why they hate the Custodies .
Wild theory, Eric is a perpetual.
Here's an idea. Arik Taranis is kept in stasis in a sarcophagus like a dreadnoughts. Whenever Moloch dies a Minotaur is given Thunder Warrior augments and sat in a chair with a special helmet placed over his head, a copy of Ariks mental enneagrams are downloaded into his brain, overwriting his personality, and maybe through some warp shenanigans his soul comes in contact with Ariks soul, which tears into that of the marine and remolds it into a copy of of Ariks soul.
new head cannon acquired. Minotaurs are thunder warriors.
Considering the Thunder Warriors were made by genetic enhancements of varying kinds (no two were ever the same, as was the case for their armour too), while the Legiones Astartes were all created uniformly using a mix of genetic enhancements, hypno indoctrination and implantation of gene seed unique to their respective Primarchs; and the fact that even the longest surviving Thunder Warriors wouldn't have lived long past the Horus Heresy despite their escape from their culling by the Emperor, I'd say no, the Thunder warriors are not forebears of the Minators Chapter.
The Gene seed that Babu used, was it for sure traitor, or could it have been loyalist that were imprisoned in the palace?
Fascinating.
They are of Perturabos Geeneseed. They are in effect loyalist Iron Warriors.
good topic!
They might be, but it would not be practical to answer either way (just like every other suspicious bloodline)
This seems likely. There's one other Thunder Warrior/Astartes crossover:
Endryd Haar.
Read up on him, OP.
Probably Iron Warriors
It’s not really possible for the Minotaurs to appear till after the heresy cause the high lords didn’t gain real power until after the primarchs disappeared
If we ever get thunder warriors, I hope its more Rogue group like some human pirates throw in some hive scum one or two thunder warriors given they are op. As for faction no idea maybe like a merc faction.
Unfortunately i think it'd be a bit of a stretch to think minotaurs are somehow related to the thunder warriors. I know, i know, we all want the thunder warriors. But moloch is even better, he's a monster of an astartes
Plot twist: Primaris project was based on Astartes/TW hybridization.
Shafted by the emperor, who with his custodes, and astartes, actively murdered thunder warriors, why would any of them have anything to do with the imperium or astartes?
There are so many problems tying the minotaurs to the thunder warriors.
- The custodes would have come sniffing around, and they kill TWs on sight.
- The high lords would never knowingly permit a TW to lead an astartes chapter, especially one they are supporting so discretely. Especially since one of them is the captain general of the custodes
- any thunder warrior would gladly explain the truth of the battle of mt Ararat and shatter an astartes's faith in the emperor.
- the minotaurs only came around in the 36th millennium, its a big stretch to have a TW survive that long and somehow integrate himself into the chapter.
- Why would a thunder warrior join an astartes chapter, the creatures made to replace them, and slaughtered them?
I could go on but those are the major complications. This sounds like fanfiction and wishful thinking.
About chronology, they can start at 32nd millenium and arive at 36th