THE ANNOUNCEMENT OF WARMASTER! WAS ULLANOR A MISTAKE?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- Hey everyone Rho here! Today we're asking if the Emperor's announcement of Horus being Warmaster at Ullanor was a mistake?
General Spoiler Warning to begin as the events we're discussing today are from across the Warhammer 40,000 universe. As always I really recommend you read the stories for yourself first without spoilers! As that's the best way to enjoy the lore for yourself!
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My headcanon is the emperor saw many futures where he named other primarchs and they ended up falling one way or another, but with horus he didnt see that as chaos kept it very hidden. So his statement of "the warmaster was always going to fall" was more of a revelation, and his steps leading up to the horus heresy were an attempt to prevent another chaos incursion, not knowing they had a trap trump card laid waiting, so he felt secure enough to bugger off to Terra, believing he had enough time before chaos could muster and change their plans enough to off-rail his plans. Or he planned it all. Idk.
Youd think if he could really see all that he would have tried to keep some STCs
He already has a ton of tech hidden away. Who knows what stcs he decided to save, but he deemed too dangerous to unleash.
@@laughy38247357075834the Emperor wasn't always as powerful as he is. Malcador says this directly when he reveals that the reason why the Emperor chose to have a father/son relationship with the Primarchs is because he knew his humanity would be lost as he gained more power.
Anyone who knows how exponential curves work knows that for a very long time, the curve is very gradual. Then it starts to climb really fast once it hits a certain threshold.
He probably didn't hit that threshold until the birth of Slaanesh and the Eye of Terror which brought more warp energy into the galaxy.
My Head Cannon is 88 mm. Its a smaller round but it definitely packs a punch
In old lore for the siege of terra it is said there are Numerous tech burned down by the apokalyptischen battle for terra . The Heresy destroyed much much more than it is Release to us in the first glance
The Emperor: Some men need recognition.
Perturabo: (T-T)
Perturabo tried to act like the Lion. He didn't have what it takes tho. hahahah
The emperor: And the new warmaster is
Horus shows up: dad sorry im late
The emperor: horus my son....
Lionel: throws his helmet
Impatience can play the fool of even the best of us. The emperor was no exception and it cost him everything.
Thats so very true rushing to get things finished it never ever happens the way you want it to
You don't know exactly all the reasons for his impatience. Who is to say the heresy was the best alternative to a bloody inevitable future.
Some forget that Fulgrim cheered, while a good amount of the primarchs were jealous, dont forget that Fulgrim didnt start off as arrogant and envious as he ended up
If the big E had given Perturabo recognition the heresy would have been much much different
As a Fists fan, I 100% believe that if Perturabo and Dorn were on the same side of the heresy, whoever has them wins in a landslide. Just look to Dantioch and Pollux vs Konrad Curze. Perturabo couldn’t be the Praetorian as he wanted due to the Emperor’s reasons for it being Dorn and only Dorn, but he should have still been given some honours and appreciation.
@@ctirons i dont care for the fists but for the most part i agree i think Perturabo would have been a better architect for the defense of terra but if dorn and Perturabo were on the same side thats a wrap
Dorn and Perturabo could have held Terra from every traitor legion on their own honestly.
@@Fordo007 agreed
@@Fordo007 I don't see them holding it 2v8 but give them any 2 other loyal brothers and they could have pulled the 4v8
in my opinion he should have gathered all 18 primarchs on his flagship and announced it there
I think that even the Emperor’s handling of the announcement of Horus as the warmaster was a part of his grand plan. He knew that the parade would speak to some of the primarchs while embittering others. I truly do think the Heresy/Civil War between astartes was always planned as it was the only way to eliminate the vast number of troops on a multitude of worlds effectively. However, I think after he focused all his energy into the webway project, the events of the crusade swapped players to different teams. Another fantastic video by the way Rho!
If dad didn't cross the galaxy for Terran milk things may have been different.
Top tier content brother.
Hey Rho, great content as always.
I agree that Ullanor is a key point in the change of eras for the Imperium but I feel there is a focus too great on it as it relates to the heresy, this isn't the real turning point, the true turning point for the heresy is the razing of Monarchia and the Emperor not speaking clearly to Lorgar, he is the first fallen, he is the reason why all the other primarchs fall. Ullanor is the spectacle and historical point but the true turning point is Monarchia
Emperor probably would've saved most of the primarchs from corruption in few heart beats if he didn't need to sit on golden throne. Magnus ruined everything. Emperor probably didn't see Magnus fking things up like that, emperor warned him many times about warp. Horus heresy would've never happened if magnus kept his reda$$ closed. 😅
Underrated true.
That's why he really hated that, and that's why tzeentch wanted the big red, that was an unexpected change.
Big true. Magnus should've just flown to Terra by ship and told the Emperor (or Malcador if he wasn't granted audience for one reason or another) about what was about to happen personally. He learned of Horus's betrayal LOOOONG before the events of Calth and the manifestation of the Ruinstorm.
Sewing the seeds of division between the sons ultimately saved half the Primarchs from falling to Choas. It either allowed them to question Horus when he did start to scheme and carry out his plots, but more importantly the loyalist Primarchs were able to accept they were at war with their fallen brothers allowing them to fight back, even if from a back foot position.
In truth, the position of Warmaster, or "Supreme Commander", likely should have been spread amongst 3-4 of the Primarchs and/or Custodes. Either the Emperor thought too highly of himself, having too much faith in himself or his sons, and thus his sons, or he did not think highly enough of the posting of Warmaster, not giving it the gravity it deserves considering what being 'Supreme Commander" entails.
I love the character of the Emperor for many reasons, but one of the biggest is that the Emperor, for all that he was willing to do and had already done for humanity, simply couldn’t understand that his sons were not him. By this, I mean that while preserving humanity is and always was the Emperor’s goal, he couldn’t see that his sons did not have such single-minded devotion. Yes, many wished to preserve humanity, and wished to serve their father. But Big E could only see that Chaos was the great danger, and so never could consider that his sons had other motivations.
If i remember reading correctly in the space wolves novel they were asked about ullanor and they were on other business not sure what but obviously doing the emperor's bidding
The mistake was not delegating the Webway Project to Perturabo. The Emperor could have remained to personally lead the Great Crusade, while Perturabo used his genius to complete the Webway Project under Malcador's supervision.
Ok this is what Emps should have done.
First make the war master position a triarchy. Have there be a 1st 2nd and third position. The third and 2nd position comes up with the plans and strategy, the final approval is done by the first position. If the second and third position have contradictory or opposing plans the first position is the tie breaker and may alter the plan he chose with the one he didn’t choose’s approval. The way it works that after a time period the first position leaves the council and the third and second positions vote who will come in, if they cannot decide than first position must vote for one of them to be a tiebreaker. Then he leaves and the second position becomes first and third becomes second. The new one becomes primarchs cannot rejoin until all have been on the triune. I think the most strategic choice for 1st 2nd and 3rd position would be Horus, Perturabo, and either Dorn, Lion, or Angron. The third position choice depends on the strategy you are going for. But Perturabo needs recognition but room to get more so second position is best, not to mention his competency. Horus need to be the charismatic face to establish legitimacy and also get him rotated out while minimizing his power in case Chaos tries to pull their cards immediately like what really happened. The emperor wants time so either force Chaos to act on time table but with a weakened position or give the emperor more time till they can regain the advantage.
Finally have each primarch swear two oaths, one to the triune and to lend their particular skills and be firm if they have criticism, while swearing supreme loyalty the the emperor and imperium.
I think Guiliman probably thought of this before me but didn’t tell anybody anyone.
The big E has never gone in for this soft "let the people decide for themselves" type thing. The Emperor knows best, and if you disagree then it's off to the servitor conversion station with you.
The legions needed a head commander but the war and campaign should have been divided up for each one.
Anyone crowned with Warmaster was always gonna be corrupted, the Emperor most like picked Horus because he believed it was the best chance at victory against Chaos.
I find it interesting that the majority of the primarchs that would turn were at the triumph.
GW doesn’t do a lot of things right. One of the things that they do very well is timeline. Progressing novels are very well thought out. Campaign novels are very irritating because they typically step on the feet or undo things that they shouldn’t. Talking about you 10th edition undoing what the blood angels did at Baal. It’s OK but just frustrating. The most recent siege books are starting to incorporate the questions that GW was so well at presenting. They are all the questions that we have as a humanity but in this really cool setting. Malcador explicitly states that the emperor stole fire from the perceived gods. Unlike the space marines, and the custodians being made the 20 sons were created. Meaning that they had to follow the parameters for creation. Erda had to give up her genetic material, and so did the emperor, they then had to be born, and the final, most important part of the whole thing being a soul. The emperor stole the ability to create a soul, but in order for a soul to be created past have free will. Hence the reason why the custodians did not like/ uneasy about the 20 sons. They were created not made through gene forging. The emperor under estimated Freewill, and ability to choose when it came to his sons. The emperor always knew some sons would turn, malcador said so and they made contingencies for that but something happened forcing them to go with faith and ascension as the final result. We all know the story and it is re-told throughout almost every culture of humanity. A man came denying God hood, taught enlightenment of the mind and soul through hard work, and humanities faith in itself. He selected followers to help spread the word of this enlightenment. He was betrayed by one of his followers, dying and giving humanity the choice to choose to either follow himself down the path of enlightenment or turn to chaos.
I was thinking.
If the emperor would have given dorn the duty of building defense and pertorabo the duty to test them.
So like.
"you two are the best and you need to test each other. Because you two are the only ones smart enough to compete against each other."
He would have had pertorabo on his side and Horus would have been screwed.
I think this is one of those times the Emperor saw the Primarchs as tools rather than sons, and so felt no need to consider their feelings.
If only Perturabo had been at Ullanor instead of Lorgar it would have been the same 9 as involved in the seige of Terra. Still quite coincidental it's 8 of the 9.
Eight pieces of nine
What about vulkan?
I agree the conversation would have adverted many of the traitors and made things better. However he might have seen a worst future if he did
Ironically that’s what Guilliman is now and he’s doing better than Horus ever did.
Guilliman doesn't the Chaos God's whispering in his ear the same way Horus did. He doesn't have his brothers doing their own thing all over the place and screwing up by the numbers. Guilliman can just get on with his vision of rebuilding the Imperium in peace, that is until he runs into another Primarch
Horus was doing a splendid job until he got stabbed in the ribs with a corrupted dagger.
Guilliman didn't have the charisma or begrudging respect from the full set of his brothers to the degree that Horus did.
@@henryviiifake8244Guilliman was still more successful than them in the end.
G-man isn't deal8ng with other primarchs under his command yet.
If Big E was a more attentive father many thing's would be different. Make perty they praetorian if earth rather than rogal cause like horus perty needed the recognition. Tell magnus why exactly he needs to stop or tell him about the webway have him help.
In my mind the emperor saw All the possible futures and knew if he had picked another. Hr might not live through the foght and the imperium would fall. Horus was his safest gamble. A chaos infused Sanguinius or Dorn would have been too devastating.
I mean its hard to say horus did save the emperor from a giant ork who was crushing him to death many primarchs were loyal to big e but horus i believe due to being found 1st and having the most time with dad was the only one who truly loved him when they found leman he was jealous and didnt approve of him yet leman hesitated to actually kill horus for he loved his older brother, the 2nd legion primarch mal...al...horus would remember later recounting with uncle malcador his anger and resentment towards this suggests to me they had a great relationship of course i think this is the primarch leman executed the 2nd son not wanting to disappoint dad, ferrus was a cold and stern primarch which no one seemed to like except fulgrim, vulkan i believe was the last primarch the emperor put effort into until sanguinious of course theres a few other primarchs between then sure they could see futures to which might happen but they did account it would start with the erasure of threr memory's
There was only one true warmaster and his name was Ollanius
Everything the new canon emperor did or said was stupid and a huge mistake. They have made him into a complete fool. The old emperor was a bad ass tyrant that created the imperium and the astates, the new canon says all that was a big accident
The Emperor should have finished the job against the Chaos denizens then worked upon the great project
As soon as The Emperor was forced to sit upon the throne he was unable to rein in his wayward sons
He's 75% of the reason the wayward ones are wayward 😂
Could HAVE. Could of means nothing
The emperor did nothing wrong with Ulanor. His appointment of Horus was justified and correct. He did everything wrong with not warning anyone about Chaos, how to look out for it, how to counteract it. As well, at LEAST not telling Horus what was going on
The Primarchs all knew the broad strokes of chaos. They knew that the warp was filled with malevolent, incorporeal beings who want to seduce and corrupt mortals. As for “how to counteract it”, I’m not sure the Emperor knows how to counteract it
Every decision the Emperor has made has been with intent. This is exactly how he wanted it to go. The survival of mankind was dependent upon eternal conflict. It was also intended for Sanguinius to have faced named greater demons, Angron, an entire legion by himself, and go weeks without sleep while Horus was fresh as a daisy aboard his ship having not participated in any combat prior to the two of them facing off. (Or that fight could have gone very differently.)
Maybe, if Horus was not named Warmaster he would have been even easier to turn.
The whole heresy was essentially planned and Malcador the Sigilite pretty much says as much within the final Horus Heresy book. Malcador says he and the Emperor just didn't expect it quite so soon and the Red menace threw things off alot with his idiot move trying to warn the Emperor and the havoc it unleashed.
No mistake, just part of his grand plan to achieve godhood.
All of the primarchs should have been there. It definitely would have made things better between the brothers. Plus, the Emperor could have talked to Horus and Corvax in private to hammer things out between them. Russ and Magnus too.
I'm mixed on this.
I LIKE the idea of the Emperor being fallible, so that mistakes were made. And that mistakes were made in the Announcement. But I don't think any mistakes WERE made - just circumstances beyond even the control of the Emperor.
Ideally, I agree - all the other Primarchs would have been present (and STAYED present until Horus dismissed them) to allow Horus to cement his position internally, if possible, or to at least start to make headway where he couldn't make bridges (like with Corax and Angron). But that wasn't feasible in the lore, so I don't consider that to be a "Mistake" by the Emperor. And really, that's a better as an example of the Emperor being tied to the whims of Fate like everyone else even if he has infinitely more power to dictate how Fate affects him. The Pomp and Circumstance around the appointment is necessary - was it too much? Maybe. But some was necessary. Someone was going to be embittered by this, regardless of what the Emperor did. Someone was going to consider this a mistake, regardless of who the Emperor chose. There wasn't a perfect way to do this, there were only ways that had the best positive effect combined with the least negative effect, and the Emperor had to choose one of them.
Revealing it to Horus the night before but not to the other Primarchs until everyone knows publicly? That MIGHT be a mistake. Military leadership does tend to go this way, though, and has gone that way since ancient times. (mostly to keep rebellions from happening between the generals being told in private what's going on and that news being made public when the generals decide they ain't gonna stand for this shite) If the Emperor saw the Primarchs as his Tools, his Generals - NOT his Sons - this makes a bit more sense. And if he knows there's going to be rebellion among them, it also makes a bit of sense. But... eh. Maybe Angron would have skipped the ceremony. Maybe Mortarian would have as well, both of them being upset by the decision (though maybe only Mortarian would want to be Warmaster himself). I could also see Jaghatai skipping out the night before without saying a word because he already knew what the outcome was so why would his presence be required? And the Emperor wanted as many to be present at the public announcement as possible. But... couldn't he just order them to attend the ceremony, to provide the Imperium with a symbol of their united front? So maybe this WAS a mistake.
As for the discussion with the Lion... eh. Sometimes you have to say things to your audience that your audience wants to hear, sometimes you have to say things to your audience that your audience needs to hear, and many times, those things aren't entirely truthful. They aren't LIES, exactly, but they're truths told in a way that the audience is most receptive to them. Maybe the Lion needed to hear that Horus was vainglorious so needed the pomp and circumstance so that the Lion would accept him, and that if the Emperor tried to be more nuanced (Horus likes the pomp and circumstance, and thinks celebrations are good for humanity... but he personally would be quite happy with just the Emperor sending out a fax to the Imperium saying "Yeah, so Horus is Warmaster, he acts in my stead from now on. Be excellent, peace out, Big E." so this wasn't done for him, it was done for the imperium.) that the Lion wouldn't accept it as easily.
The title Warmaster says it all. Nothing good comes from something like that, hence the Emperor knew what was going to happen. The highest praised falls to the lowest. Now there’s a sacrifice with meaning.
Big E should have gone for zonal marking. Devide up the galaxy into 18 sections and each legion responsible for each. Give the alpha legion a smaller easier section close to terra and infiltrate the other legions so they can report back what they are all up to.
Emperor was betrayed by previous warmaster. "Second times the charm..."
With the Hall of Leng chapter I question if anything the Emperor did was a mistake. He knew for thousands of years about the 5th God. If you were trying to make that a reality, tweaking a Demi God's ambitions is a good way to make it reality.
It could have been worse. The Lion could have been named Warmaster….. I am a DA fan but that really would have caused division between the Brothers. Essentially the Emperor minus psychic power (and empathy). Plus galactic population would drop drastically afterwards. ⚛️⚛️⚛️🦤🦤🦤
The actual logistics and security of getting all the Primarchs and the Emperor together, that would take some doing. Even for the Imperium at it’s height.
Ullanor was absolutely a mistake. Not the event but the way it was handled. The emperor’s biggest (and most baffling) mistake was disappearing to terra without telling his sons why. After appointing Horus he should have taken Magnus with him back to terra and explained everything about the throne and webway to him. Once Magnus understood the importance of the throne (and how it fit into the emperor’s vision for mankind), then summon Dorn back to fortify terra.
Big E should've dispatched a few Custodes and Sisters along with a small fleet and guardsman to locate his Primarchs'.
I think the emperor should have never assigned a war master. I feel that if no, Primarch was in complete control, I think the heresy would have never happened.
I reqly thought I read something way back when where all the primarks duel there father and only the lie on was able to land a hit.
Some men need recognition ...like the emperor of mankind ....
❤
This is a lot like my dad telling me what's in his will (wow, really similar): Executor of his estate #1, my brother, his son. #2 and #3 dad's brothers. I'm not on the list. Only reason I wasn't mad was WE ACUTUALLY TALKED ABOUT IT BEFOREHAND
Very interesting discussion (as always)!
To me, there is no doubt that the Warmaster, at that point, was a necessity. At the same time, however, I agree 100% with the fact that the Emperor could have handled the announcement better. However, I believe that Primarchs would have resented the candidate, no matter what because that's who the Primarchs are at the end of the day...do we really think they would have rejoiced if anyone else instead of Horus would have been chosen? I don't believe for a second that those who were at Ullanor and cheered didn't also think "It should have been me", as Horus himself admitted he would have done.
Whether Horus was the best candidate (and, in my opinion, he was one of the best), that's another story. However, the Emperor knew that whoever he picked as Warmaster would have fallen to chaos no matter what, an element that should be considered when looking at these decisions. Also, there is the possibility that the civil war had been already planned/foreseen, so it didn't really matter whether by rushing his decisions he'd hurt some Primarchs' pride and feelings. After all, those who already despise him (e.g., Mortarion, Angron, Perturabo) would have not changed their minds even in the case of a better-handled Ullanor.
As said, the Warmaster was a necessity: the Great Crusade was not over yet, but the Emperor needed to return to Terra and focus on the Webway Project, so he needed someone to take his place as commander in chief. The main problem, to me, still comes to the Emperor' secrecy: he should have told the Primarchs about chaos and shared his grand plan for humanity with them. Basically, he should have confided in his sons more.
I wonder how things would go if the Emperor found the others ‘first’ and they became favorite instead of Horus. Imagine Perturabo or Kurze or Mortarion as ‘favorite’ son who spent the most time with the Emperor. Was Horus always going to be favorite or could any of them have been?
Ten thousand years of Imperial history would say yes.
I would have loved to see the version where they gave it to Alpharius though. THAT would have been an interesting timeline.
Rho's ending statement of the All of the Primarchs should have been there for Horus' ascension kinda confirmed what the Emperor said. Men need the pomp from time to time as acknowledgement of achievements
If they were all present and swore allegiance to Horus chaos would rule the galaxy end of
Selection for Warmaster should have been the Primarchs voting on it.
Democracy has never been the way of the Big E.
Guilliman or the Lion would have been a great warmaster
Maybe. Some primarchs didn't like the G-man and the Lion's paranoia and secretcy might have caused more issues.
@@cheeseburger12 why didn’t they like the G-man
@@mikeylejan8849 I think they thought he was too by the book. He also didn't have nearly the Chrisma the Lion, Sangintius, or Horus had. Fennus Manus wasn't a fan. The Lion wasn't a fan. Angron wouldn't have listened to him. Obviously Logar wouldn't. Alparious would have hated him. Horus pretty much had almost everyone's respect.
Everything the Emperor did was ultimately a mistake.
Some men need recognition. If that dosnt discribe the arch-traitor Horus i dont know what does the vainglorious bastard he is.