You will not have sponsors for now because you speak the hardcore TRUTH! and crush the "hype" which it's all you see in those colorful boxes, we appreciate your honesty! You won another subscription here🤘. I hope Boss Shells see your videos and sponsor you in a near future.
Hey thanks so much David! I appreciate it. I'm not trying to offend or put any company down, I just feel compelled to research and sift through things to find what really matters and really works. And then share the bottom line.
Just getting into duck/goose hunting, I believed the hype on the box and choke tubes. Thanks for setting me straight. You made this sport less expensive than I was making it. Love your analysis.
“Waterfowler with a PHD”, and “a low level of hype” got me to subscribe! I love the honesty in your videos! Also I agree with your thoughts on mixed shot. I’m not a big fan either. Either bite the bullet and buy 100% tungsten or bismuth. You will see a big difference in performance. I have on the east coast shooting sea ducks.
Appreciate the video! I've always used Federal Blue Box 3" 1 1/4 oz BB at 1425 FPS out of a SBE2 with a patternmaster code black duck. I am comfortable pass shooting snows at 50 yards or shooting honkers at 40-50 yards. Are they always dead, absolutely not, but I always appreciated buying a case of ammo for $99 (before now) and stepping up my shot size. The Federal blue box definitely didn't look plated, when pulling pellets from birds they just looked to be tumbled in graphite but the shot was always pretty uniform and round.
Well spoken , while this isn t rocket science there are hunter s that have a hard time comprehending the physics of the different loads . Your explanation is perfect .
What an absolutely great video sir, thank you so much for specifying everything so vividly you're a very knowledgeable smart man so thanks again my friend👍🏽👍🏽💯 I'm kinda a newbie when it comes to these here shotgun shells but they're guys like yourself who's so helpful and beneficial to the people that knows what makes sense and what matters so thank u again with 1000 thumbs up!!👍🏽
Great material, When I started hunting lead was the go to shot material. When we were forced to go to steel it was a serious downgrade in not only killing power, range and patterns. First gen steel was horrible. Percentage of crippled or lost game went through the roof. Bismuth was a game changer. I was able to go back to hunting with an O/U using #5 2 3/4” shells. My ammo consumption dropped precipitously. The percentage of recovered game went through the roof noise and recoil also dropped. The cost went up per shell but the wasted shells went way down and terminal effect went way up. Curious to see what the future brings.
Your getting another like from me. I Luv the channel content. Ammo manufacturing hype has been the downfall of buying ammo for some time now. Great Job!!! Thanks...
@@TheNewHuntersGuide It is definitely hard to separate the hype, from the legit details of Hevi-Shot, TSS shot, Steel Shot, and Hevi- Steel Shot that has plagued the market with extremely high prices! Keep up the video's man you are doing a great job.
I love Boss! It's the same price as a lot of "premium" steel shells but performs noticeably better. My dad has ran into some problems using Boss in his shotguns though. He has had some light primer strikes and even some squib loads in both his Remington 11-87 and Winchester SX4. I think his problem was that he left a bunch of Boss shells in a wet neoprene shell holder for long periods of time. I always dry my shells out if they get wet and I have never had a issue shooting or cycling Boss.
Bought some migra tungsten/steel blended loads last year. underwhelming performance. M biggest complaint though is that they dont advertise the density of there tungsten and when i reached out to ask someone in the company they told me it was proprietary information. obviously that's a farce since everyone of their competitors puts it right on the box. good video. definitely ammo company's trying to swindle consumers into buying ammo off what's on the box and not what's in the shell.
Migra Timbers are actually a good stacked shell. 50/50 steel and bismuth, my go to shell for early season ducks on small ponds. Then I transition to something like a #2 speedshot for shooting the river and larger water. Looking at getting some Boss shot this year too.
I've not found a good steel load for pheasants in 20gauge. The cripple rate is quite high. I met a fellow pheasant hunter who swore by his #3 Boss shells and gave me 3 to try. I will give them a try next Fall.
Yea, I can identify with that. Steel 20-gauge pheasant loads are really sub-par. I would definitely upgrade to something better like bismuth. That gives new life to a 20 gauge.
I use Eley VIP 24g no4 steel 2¾" , not sure if they're available in the US , good for pheasant and duck. I don't really shoot much further than 35yds and use imp cyl and mod. Bismuth is definitely the best but so expensive even here in the UK it works out at about $1.50 a shot for a 2³" 12ga 32g load
Great video. Thanks. I would love to see a chart comparing the velocities at different distances for different steel loads. How does the velocity at 30 yards compare from a 1700 fps load to a 1350 or 1400 fps load? Oh yeah, this video got me to subscribe.
Well done. To the point. I hear people saying how a certain shell is so superior. I look at the math. Mass x Velocity as well as how it patterns. Bismuth is better than steel admittedly but not that much imo. At least that’s what the math is telling me. Steel 7.85, bismuth 9.74 lead 11.29. So It’s between steel and lead like you said and not some wonder load like many state. Plus many find it hard to pattern so until I see a major advantage I’ll stick with steel and tungsten.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide I've come to learn shooting decoying birds inside 35 yards and in steel shot works just fine I really like mirga steel and kent 2.0
@@joshuaeck2712 Kent Fasteel 2.0 is my personal favorite steel load. Patterns really well out of my gun. It just doesn't give me the long-range performance I want. But for the price, it quite good.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide no steel really gives long range Preformance.. so I keep the shots inside 40 yards. I can't justify spending money on the more expensive shot choices for inside 40 yards not that big of a difference I think.
I kind of disagree with the lubricity statement on the inside of the barrel since the pellets are carried by the wad if using the right type of wad for non toxic or steel.
Yea, I meant to talk about that more in the video as well, but forgot until I was in editing already. You are right, most pellets are not touching a barrel wall. Some may, in which case the statement about lubricity is valid. But in most instances, with quality ammo, it's a non issue.
I really like your videos. You do an excellent job. I found out years ago when I cut open a Hevi Metal shell and weighed the pellets the lies. They advertise smaller pellets at the same weight as the steel. Not true. I found that the pellets that are even bigger than the steel were lighter. I have a video called lighter than steel check it out.
Can't recommend the Hevi-Shot Hevi-XII enough. I have been hunting with that stuff since it first hit the market. They hail from Sweet Home Oregon, same state as I'm in. They've sense been bought by Vista Outdoors. Now the Hevi-XII is the original Hevi-Shot that has been winning pattern competitions since it hit the market. My personal longest F-U shot on a goose was at 102 yards with #2s, dropped it stone cold. Don't recommend shooting at that range, but I was mad.
A viewer recently sent me a handful of HEVI XII to test, a couple #4 and #6. I am impressed with them. The test videos are on the way. Aside from the cost and the fact that they don't seem to want to cycle well in my gun, they may be the best thing on the market save 18gcc tungsten.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide That's odd that they don't want to cycle. They cycle just fine through my Rem V3 Waterfowl Pro. I do miss Hevi-Shot's heavier payloads. The #2s, which I use for Geese, are currently only offered in 1 1/8oz. I still have some old shells where they are up at 1 1/2oz. So far the Geese haven't noticed a difference. Yesterday, the 10th, was our Sept Goose opener.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide In response to ammunition which is mixed with different metal types, like Hevi-Metal and Hevi-Hammer, wouldn't the deference in densities cause the shot string to have greater separation at longer ranges? Since the Bismuth or Tungsten are denser and retain their velocity better, they would naturally out pace the steel behind them, causing a massive hole in the shot string. So instead of one even string, you'll have two separate strings with a gap getting ever greater, esp past 35 yards.
I do not think your comparison of #4 steel and #4 bismuth shot is appropriate since the bismuth is heavier than the same size steel shot. A more appropriate comparison for both velocity and energy would be #3 steel to #4 copper plated bismuth. Check with the guys at Boss for specific size to mass comparisons.
Hi Jim, that really is one of the big points. Bismuth out-performs steel in every shot size. Bismuth in general is equal to steel 2-3 shot sizes larger. Any size.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide Thanks for acknowledging my comment - but my point is your comps are not scientifically valid relative to velocity, size, mass relationships. Your reply didn't address my points.. In my opinion you're misleading lots of folks with the same size pellet comps.
@@jimboswell6460 Hi Jim, I don't think you can mislead people by showing real data and I am struggling to see why you want to compare #4 bismuth to #3 steel in the stated context. If I used high velocity #3 steel to hunt waterfowl, I could use #3 bismuth to much greater effect in every way. If you want to do cross shot size comparisons look at my field tests play list. I have shot #4 bismuth against #4 high velocity steel and #2 high velocity steel in the same video into the same gel. The 1350 fps #4 bismuth penetrates deeper than the 1550 fps #2 steel in the same gel. There is more ballistic energy at 40 yards, even at 2 pellet sizes smaller. In fact it is that sort of testing that prompted this deeper exposition into the math and science that prompted this video and a few others. Even though you do gain more mass per pellet as you increase steel shot size to try to compensate for the advantages of bismuth, that gain is offset but the lower density. Those bigger steel pellets have more wind resistance, it is kind of like throwing a bigger wiffle ball. It makes some difference but not enough. You would need Steel #1 shot to equal the terminal performance of Bismuth #4 shot. But even in doing that, the bismuth #4s have about 50% more pellets per ounce than steel #1s. And often you have more ounces of shot in the bismuth loads because the steel uses less shot in order to get that shot up to those much higher and ultimately marginally effective velocities.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide Not a fan of steel. I'm an old fart, been hunting waterfowl since the early 1950's. Hunted exclusively with an A-5 3" 20 gauge, hand loaded with 1.25 oz of #7.5, #6 and/or #4 shot(depending on situation) until lead was banned. I am sold(though pricey) on the Boss copper plated bismuth. However, the comps of shot, steel to bismuth, should be equal or closer to equal using the similar mass per pellet X specific velocity = energy. To my scientific mind that is the most correct comparison. And yes, I understand and agree with your statement of the relative difference between steel shot size and copper plated bismuth shot size relative to downrange velocity & energy.
I had some spare time, so I decided to put down some notes on why Velocity was important. Since you have a PhD, you may want to grab a spreadsheet calculator and I will dive into the reasons why all the things I write down are part of the shooting equation. First off, a Canada’s goose can travel at 40mph (no wind behind heir backs) which equates to 58.66 ft/sec so roughly 19.5 yards per second. Now let’s assume that geese plan to land inside your decoys and we will assume 20 mph or 29 ft/sec equates to 9 yards /sec. Now let’s examine all he potential factors before you fire your shotgun. A) acquire the target visually ; 30 seconds B) flip off the safety; 1-2 seconds C)Mount the gun; 10 seconds D)RE-acquire the target and look down the rail, adjust for sustained lead; 15-25 seconds E) pull trigger,depress clothing like glove,skin tissue and assume a 5lb pull weight ; 3-5 seconds F) lock time mechanism the amount of time it takes your shotgun to ram the firing pin to the shotshell; 5 milliseconds approx it varies G) ignite the charge, burn to combust and send shot down the barrel ; not sure let’s assume 5 milliseconds attain speed of 1500 ft / sec H)auto loader ejects spent shell, loads in next shell let’s assume 5-10 milliseconds? Did the spent shell eject fully? Or hang up, by chamber? Normally expect a clean ejection on a well maintained auto loader, but after 200 rounds they may chug slower I) done shooting, put the safety back on, reload 1-2 shot shells more birds may be coming J) limit count ? Don’t get into troubles with game laws they can confiscate your vehicle, firearm,fine you, deny a hunting license. It’s not pretty. Now if you did everything perfect your goose has a mortal wound. But let’s assume the bird has a mortal wound but it’s wings continue beating and you have to repeat all of the above, minus the mounting part. This goose has now put a bit more distance on you (could add 20 yards) with each wing beat, your pattern will be less dense with each additional yardage added, and you must beat time essentially to RE-apply that second shot for a confirmed kill, or risk the bird falling far off for a long walk while other hunters may still need to fill their quota and additional birds potentially working the field. Worst case scenario you lost a cripple, educated some other birds and scared off working birds retrieving a far off bird. Having faster shotshells gives you a small statistical advantage, because you may have lost critical seconds due to all the built in time consumed, while the bird was well within your personal comfortable higher probability kill zone. Once the bird is out there 55-60 yards that’s a real stroke to bring them down with a long lead, and not up to every one’s skill level. I have done some kills like this, and while impressive and your buddies will think you are awesome it’s not a higher probability kind of thing on a consistent basis. Sometimes people call this sky busting, and it can educate birds to steer clear of decoy stands, they will influence other birds to be highly cautious and while it might not ruin your today, it could harm a tomorrow or other hunters chances. All of this time adds up and not all in your favor. What else can you do, well most shotguns have between 5-10lbs pull weight on the trigger. That is adjustable up or down, that said lowering the pull weight can help a bit, but don’t go below your state’s legal pull weight and at some point it could make the gun unsafe and/or illegal. Practice mounting , acquire target, and dry fire using dummy cartridges, these prevent your firing pin from being damaged by over extension and safer for your springs etc. think of this as a Zen like training like Karate Kid, wax on, wax off until you can mount quickly and effectively get on target. Winter clothing and length of pull. Mounting your shotgun with winter clothing is much different than a t-shirt in fact your are a different shooter in winter bulky clothing than a dove hunter or skeet shooter in a t-shirt. Whatever you wear it is critical to have the length of pull be comfortable in the clothing you wear hunting and to practice mounting the gun in those cloths. It is not uncommon to have the butt of the gun get hung up on mount when wearing heavy cloths and it will cause a RE-mount which eats valuable seconds. You may find you need to push out further before bringing the gun into your shoulder. Practice,Practice until you can do this so automatically that you barely notice the effort needed. Gun weight, how fast you can swing your gun depends on your size, strength and the gun weight. That said, your are in the 6-7lbs range for weight. Gun swing is critical whether you swing through or sustain lead. I use both depending on the situation, bird species etc. now what can you do for faster swing which reduces your time to target. I would humbly suggest you don’t need a 32” barrel for one, I personally prefer a 28” barrel, I am 5’7” tall , medium build. Now let’s say you are 6’4” you may like a 32” or 30” barrel which is fine for you. Some people that shoot upland prefer a 26” barrel. Reduced gun weight will give you some advantages in swing speed, remember a body in motion will tend to stay in motion unless acted upon by an opposing force etc. you are going from barely moving to full swing so bear that all in mind and getting 6lbs moving is easier than 9lbs moving is what I am saying. Now it may seem negligible but it’s not because your dealing here in seconds or milliseconds to get ahead of the bird that desperately is fleeing for its life. In summary, anything you can do to make yourself a quicker shot, a more accurate shooter, and maximize your odds over your decoy layout plays into your statistical harvest opportunities without wasting game, cripples, educating birds, etc. also it’s a bit more fun to do things quickly professionally and cleanly without a ton of fanfare and it’s a bit more rewarding personally to be at the best of your potential.
Daniel, thanks for the thoughtful comments! I do not have any disagreement with your points. Except perhaps I think you are being too generous with how much time a shooter has to prepare, stand and shoot. I almost never have that much time, lol. The point I was pursuing in the video was not that velocity is unhelpful, but mostly that steel loses velocity so rapidly due to its low density that it almost makes no functional difference at 40+ yards. If #4 steel shot leaves the barrel at 1300 fps at 50 yards it is at 519 fps. If it leaves the barrel at 1800 fps then it is moving 599 at 50 yards. So 500 extra FPS at the muzzle equates to 80 at long range. From a power standpoint, it's useless. Now I see your point that the shot will arrive at the target faster because it will have at least started its journey faster. But it loses the majority of those velocity gains within the first 10 yards, so the gain is not as pronounced as it would seem. The faster shot arrives at the target at 0.167 seconds and the slower shot arrives at 0.195 seconds. So the difference is 0.028 seconds, which per the speed of a fast flying goose equates to 1.64 feet if the goose is going at 40mph. Is that significant, it could be. But the bigger point I am trying to make is for shots like that, people should use denser metals that retain more velocity and energy at those ranges. Hyper velocity steel is still going slower than regular velocity bismuth at those ranges, and the bismuth his harder. Heavier materials can potentially do better still.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide I agree the denser loads are far preferred to pure steel. Good point that people often misunderstand. When some locations started requiring non toxic or no lead for upland birds I cringed knowing how fast and hard those birds fly and how pure steel would under perform to my expectations. The clay ranges most of us practice on are mostly lead where it is ok. And one gets tuned into the effectiveness of the denser lead shot so like when we flip to a waterfowl situation you might not make any mental realization of all of that and the impact on real life performance is dramatic. But you are absolutely right the lighter steel does slow fast and I didn’t really take that forward in my little dissertation. So yeah the denser the better imho because you want to be as close to lead performance as you can be because that will act in a hard hitting way, won’t slow down like it’s less dense counter parts. There is a whole lot going on from the time you call to waterfowl to when the shooting begins and it’s hard to compact and digest all of that for someone new to hunting for example waterfowl. Even if we sat down went over all of that in person half of it would escape by so to speak even if we could remember every valuable piece of advice. The new person almost has to actually experience some of this with their own eyes. Even now I am sure I didn’t mention things like time dilation effects or how different species of birds beat their wings at different paces. For example imagine the flight of a morning dove, it will beat several times, coast glide up, repeat where as a Canada goes will beat very hard to get their mass moving big long strokes, but once in formation it’s more rhythmic in nature. A hunter needs to kinda understand or know the patter of that for each species I can’t teach that.
If you’re taking 10 seconds to mount your gun and 15-25 seconds to mount your gun none of this matter cause you won’t be shooting at anything by the time you’re ready because the birds are all gone.
@@longridgearchery I never timed it myself if you can do it in less than a second fine. I was trying to make the erosion of time easy to understand. The point being the longer that passes the more likely you will miss your optimum opportunity
only problem with bismuth here in Finland is that its 100 euros/25 box when steel is 17-25 euros/25 box. if we had geese where i hunt then yeah, but for ducks.. not worth the money.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide yeah. I would definitely use bismuth if it was about 2 bucks a pop but prices here are ridiculous. Tungsten is 10 euros/pop at 2 3/4 inch shots. 15 euros/3 inch shell.
You really. Want a shot shell that applies trauma, folds up the Canada’s Goose over the decoys. I have a lanyard nearly full goose bands. I base my recommendation on field experience. For every banded goose you may shoot 30-40 geese or more over multiple seasons. My observation is that Black Cloud 3 1/2 inch. Shell, BB or BBB at 1500 or more ft/sec. Get the faster shells. These shells will inflict significant trauma and less lost birds , more certainty of fatality and lethality. Btw you can harvest more geese than you can humanly consume Here is why velocity matters: the time from target acquisition (when you see the bird) and when the BB’s hit the birds is your window. The bird has a vote, they can flare, and evade with each wing beat they can add 4ft of distance from you or more in windy conditions. Now you need to add the time your eye picks the target, Mount the firearm, get ahead of target, signals your finger to depress the trigger, compress your finger tissue, gloves if wearing, add the lock mechanism timing, add the time down the barrel of shot, and sustain lead. All this takes time, nothing runs faster or flies harder than some animal that wants to live, by shaving precious seconds using higher velocity shell you bear down quicker, kill inside the decoys or outer edge and inflict mortality. Also you have other hunters wanting to bear down on the same goose sometimes, maybe they did not select their goose, go after yours. You want to beat them to the punch down, fold up that goose first as it might be banded. Get the higher velocity shell it buys you time to get there first with the most. Lastly the further away the more dispersed your shot pattern, you want to minimize that with an in range strike.
I really loathe steel shot. I started hunting back when lead was the thing. Since '91 I cussed steel , literally and It has rendered older guns only good with Bismuth . Problem is Bismuth is to me over priced , way over priced( Hevi Shot $55-$60 for 16ga 25 round box) till I found BOSS ( 16 ga $32 a box for 20 rounds). Now my old double 16 ga and older Auto 5's can be used again.
PHD = Phony Hater Degree😂 Keep delivering the truth George! I try to do the same thing myself. I’m not always completely accurate but I never lie. I sincerely appreciate your willingness to share the information you have available.
You don't need all this new hype. #3s steel shot..full choke. Any shot larger won't compress. Smokes ducks over decoys. Bbb and t shot modified chole wrecks geese. Even high pass shooting. Guess it just depends on how much money you want your birds to cost on the dinner table lol nothing overcomes poor shooting so practice
The author actually thinks plating on steel shot allow a 75-90 DPH pellet to elongate going through a choke? How many time have you pulled an elongated steel pellet from a duck you shot? Undergoing a chamber pressure of up to 13,000 PSI won’t even cause a dimple. If you try to elongate steel pellets going through a choke tube, you are risking choke damage,
You misunderstood. It's elongation the shot column with less friction and the accompanying dispersal forces. Never have I attempted to infer that any pellets of any metal are being elongated.
You will not have sponsors for now because you speak the hardcore TRUTH! and crush the "hype" which it's all you see in those colorful boxes, we appreciate your honesty! You won another subscription here🤘. I hope Boss Shells see your videos and sponsor you in a near future.
Hey thanks so much David! I appreciate it. I'm not trying to offend or put any company down, I just feel compelled to research and sift through things to find what really matters and really works. And then share the bottom line.
Just getting into duck/goose hunting, I believed the hype on the box and choke tubes. Thanks for setting me straight. You made this sport less expensive than I was making it. Love your analysis.
Thank you sir! Glad to be able to provide some help!
“Waterfowler with a PHD”, and “a low level of hype” got me to subscribe! I love the honesty in your videos! Also I agree with your thoughts on mixed shot. I’m not a big fan either. Either bite the bullet and buy 100% tungsten or bismuth. You will see a big difference in performance. I have on the east coast shooting sea ducks.
Thank you so much! What size shot do you prefer?
data-driven hunter with no hidden agenda! I'm subscribed now !!!
Thanks so much will! I really appreciate it!
Best video I've ever watched that's completely honest and no hype
Wow, thank you so much! I really appreciate it!
Appreciate the video! I've always used Federal Blue Box 3" 1 1/4 oz BB at 1425 FPS out of a SBE2 with a patternmaster code black duck. I am comfortable pass shooting snows at 50 yards or shooting honkers at 40-50 yards. Are they always dead, absolutely not, but I always appreciated buying a case of ammo for $99 (before now) and stepping up my shot size. The Federal blue box definitely didn't look plated, when pulling pellets from birds they just looked to be tumbled in graphite but the shot was always pretty uniform and round.
Thanks so much for sharing Kevin! There is certainly a case to be made for spending less.
Well spoken , while this isn t rocket science there are hunter s that have a hard time comprehending the physics of the different loads . Your explanation is perfect .
@@mattchristiansen7589 thanks so much!
What an absolutely great video sir, thank you so much for specifying everything so vividly you're a very knowledgeable smart man so thanks again my friend👍🏽👍🏽💯 I'm kinda a newbie when it comes to these here shotgun shells but they're guys like yourself who's so helpful and beneficial to the people that knows what makes sense and what matters so thank u again with 1000 thumbs up!!👍🏽
Thank you so much, I really appreciate it!
Great material, When I started hunting lead was the go to shot material. When we were forced to go to steel it was a serious downgrade in not only killing power, range and patterns. First gen steel was horrible. Percentage of crippled or lost game went through the roof. Bismuth was a game changer. I was able to go back to hunting with an O/U using #5 2 3/4” shells. My ammo consumption dropped precipitously. The percentage of recovered game went through the roof noise and recoil also dropped. The cost went up per shell but the wasted shells went way down and terminal effect went way up. Curious to see what the future brings.
Thank you so much!
Thx for sharing this info that no one else is talking about 👍👍🦆🦆
Thanks for watching!
Damnnn! Everything I literally been researching and testing myself has been 100% true! Glad I found this video.
Glad I could provide some help!
Your getting another like from me. I Luv the channel content. Ammo manufacturing hype has been the downfall of buying ammo for some time now. Great Job!!! Thanks...
Thanks so much! It's a huge problem and it's hard to police!
@@TheNewHuntersGuide It is definitely hard to separate the hype, from the legit details of Hevi-Shot, TSS shot, Steel Shot, and Hevi- Steel Shot that has plagued the market with extremely high prices! Keep up the video's man you are doing a great job.
@@xwld2971 Thank you!
I love Boss! It's the same price as a lot of "premium" steel shells but performs noticeably better. My dad has ran into some problems using Boss in his shotguns though. He has had some light primer strikes and even some squib loads in both his Remington 11-87 and Winchester SX4. I think his problem was that he left a bunch of Boss shells in a wet neoprene shell holder for long periods of time. I always dry my shells out if they get wet and I have never had a issue shooting or cycling Boss.
Thanks so much! The old adage is certainly true, keep your powder dry!
Very informative looking forward to bismuth vs plated bismuth video
Thanks so much Philip!
You my friend are DUH MAN ! Keep speaking the truth ! I'm a BOSS shotshell advocate.
Thank you sir!
Bought some migra tungsten/steel blended loads last year. underwhelming performance. M biggest complaint though is that they dont advertise the density of there tungsten and when i reached out to ask someone in the company they told me it was proprietary information. obviously that's a farce since everyone of their competitors puts it right on the box. good video. definitely ammo company's trying to swindle consumers into buying ammo off what's on the box and not what's in the shell.
Wow you contacted them and they still wouldn't tell you?
Migra Tungsten stacks are overrated, but I do love the steel/bismuth timber stacks for early season teal.
I like tungsten heavyweight. It is expensive, but less than TSS and almost as dense. Those are pellets I purchase to make my own loads.
What is the density of the stuff you are buying?
Migra Timbers are actually a good stacked shell. 50/50 steel and bismuth, my go to shell for early season ducks on small ponds. Then I transition to something like a #2 speedshot for shooting the river and larger water. Looking at getting some Boss shot this year too.
Thanks!
You're absolutely right. I have 3" 410 #4 11/16 oz. that is above wad.
I've not found a good steel load for pheasants in 20gauge. The cripple rate is quite high. I met a fellow pheasant hunter who swore by his #3 Boss shells and gave me 3 to try. I will give them a try next Fall.
Yea, I can identify with that. Steel 20-gauge pheasant loads are really sub-par. I would definitely upgrade to something better like bismuth. That gives new life to a 20 gauge.
I use Eley VIP 24g no4 steel 2¾" , not sure if they're available in the US , good for pheasant and duck.
I don't really shoot much further than 35yds and use imp cyl and mod.
Bismuth is definitely the best but so expensive even here in the UK it works out at about $1.50 a shot for a 2³" 12ga 32g load
Nailed a few issues there! 💯👍
Thanks so much!
Great video. Thanks. I would love to see a chart comparing the velocities at different distances for different steel loads. How does the velocity at 30 yards compare from a 1700 fps load to a 1350 or 1400 fps load? Oh yeah, this video got me to subscribe.
Thanks so much for the idea Jesse! I'll add it to my list.
Well done. To the point. I hear people saying how a certain shell is so superior. I look at the math. Mass x Velocity as well as how it patterns. Bismuth is better than steel admittedly but not that much imo. At least that’s what the math is telling me. Steel 7.85, bismuth 9.74 lead 11.29. So It’s between steel and lead like you said and not some wonder load like many state. Plus many find it hard to pattern so until I see a major advantage I’ll stick with steel and tungsten.
Thank you sir!
Most important thing is to know what you are getting and test to see how well it works.
How do you make your ballistic gel?
I buy it from ClearBallistics.com Great stuff.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide thank you 🙏🏻
Love the videos. Very interesting stuff
Thanks so much Joshua!
@@TheNewHuntersGuide I've come to learn shooting decoying birds inside 35 yards and in steel shot works just fine I really like mirga steel and kent 2.0
@@joshuaeck2712 Kent Fasteel 2.0 is my personal favorite steel load. Patterns really well out of my gun. It just doesn't give me the long-range performance I want. But for the price, it quite good.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide no steel really gives long range Preformance.. so I keep the shots inside 40 yards. I can't justify spending money on the more expensive shot choices for inside 40 yards not that big of a difference I think.
Great video
Thank you!
I kind of disagree with the lubricity statement on the inside of the barrel since the pellets are carried by the wad if using the right type of wad for non toxic or steel.
Yea, I meant to talk about that more in the video as well, but forgot until I was in editing already. You are right, most pellets are not touching a barrel wall. Some may, in which case the statement about lubricity is valid. But in most instances, with quality ammo, it's a non issue.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide Thanks.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide Got another subscriber, for that answer. Thanks.
@@tuyo_adventures.2185 Thank you sir!
Anybody know what jacket this is George is wearing???
That is an old Cabela's Instinct waterfowl parka, windproof and warm for the cold day I shot this long video.
What’s a good ammo to start with that won’t break the bank
For steel, I like Kent Fasteel. For Bismuth, BOSS has the best price.
Thank I enjoy your videos
@@mikemyers9347 Thanks!
I really like your videos. You do an excellent job. I found out years ago when I cut open a Hevi Metal shell and weighed the pellets the lies. They advertise smaller pellets at the same weight as the steel. Not true. I found that the pellets that are even bigger than the steel were lighter. I have a video called lighter than steel check it out.
Oh wow, really? That's crazy!
Can't recommend the Hevi-Shot Hevi-XII enough. I have been hunting with that stuff since it first hit the market. They hail from Sweet Home Oregon, same state as I'm in. They've sense been bought by Vista Outdoors. Now the Hevi-XII is the original Hevi-Shot that has been winning pattern competitions since it hit the market. My personal longest F-U shot on a goose was at 102 yards with #2s, dropped it stone cold. Don't recommend shooting at that range, but I was mad.
A viewer recently sent me a handful of HEVI XII to test, a couple #4 and #6. I am impressed with them. The test videos are on the way. Aside from the cost and the fact that they don't seem to want to cycle well in my gun, they may be the best thing on the market save 18gcc tungsten.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide That's odd that they don't want to cycle. They cycle just fine through my Rem V3 Waterfowl Pro. I do miss Hevi-Shot's heavier payloads. The #2s, which I use for Geese, are currently only offered in 1 1/8oz. I still have some old shells where they are up at 1 1/2oz. So far the Geese haven't noticed a difference. Yesterday, the 10th, was our Sept Goose opener.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide In response to ammunition which is mixed with different metal types, like Hevi-Metal and Hevi-Hammer, wouldn't the deference in densities cause the shot string to have greater separation at longer ranges? Since the Bismuth or Tungsten are denser and retain their velocity better, they would naturally out pace the steel behind them, causing a massive hole in the shot string. So instead of one even string, you'll have two separate strings with a gap getting ever greater, esp past 35 yards.
@@stevennicovich8547 Yea, it was odd, at least they fired. Could have just been that batch of hulls.
@@stevennicovich8547 Yup you nailed it. But it is hard to measure and hard to choke.
What’s your favorite budget steel load?
Kent Fasteel. I don't know if you consider that a budget load, but it's the cheapest steel I feel comfortable shooting.
Speedshot
Snow goose experts from Winchester are 1750 I believe which I think is crazy but there is such a thing
Wow, I can only assume that is really increasing recoil as well.
I do not think your comparison of #4 steel and #4 bismuth shot is appropriate since the bismuth is heavier than the same size steel shot. A more appropriate comparison for both velocity and energy would be #3 steel to #4 copper plated bismuth. Check with the guys at Boss for specific size to mass comparisons.
Hi Jim, that really is one of the big points. Bismuth out-performs steel in every shot size. Bismuth in general is equal to steel 2-3 shot sizes larger. Any size.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide Thanks for acknowledging my comment - but my point is your comps are not scientifically valid relative to velocity, size, mass relationships. Your reply didn't address my points.. In my opinion you're misleading lots of folks with the same size pellet comps.
@@jimboswell6460 Hi Jim, I don't think you can mislead people by showing real data and I am struggling to see why you want to compare #4 bismuth to #3 steel in the stated context. If I used high velocity #3 steel to hunt waterfowl, I could use #3 bismuth to much greater effect in every way. If you want to do cross shot size comparisons look at my field tests play list. I have shot #4 bismuth against #4 high velocity steel and #2 high velocity steel in the same video into the same gel. The 1350 fps #4 bismuth penetrates deeper than the 1550 fps #2 steel in the same gel. There is more ballistic energy at 40 yards, even at 2 pellet sizes smaller. In fact it is that sort of testing that prompted this deeper exposition into the math and science that prompted this video and a few others. Even though you do gain more mass per pellet as you increase steel shot size to try to compensate for the advantages of bismuth, that gain is offset but the lower density. Those bigger steel pellets have more wind resistance, it is kind of like throwing a bigger wiffle ball. It makes some difference but not enough. You would need Steel #1 shot to equal the terminal performance of Bismuth #4 shot. But even in doing that, the bismuth #4s have about 50% more pellets per ounce than steel #1s. And often you have more ounces of shot in the bismuth loads because the steel uses less shot in order to get that shot up to those much higher and ultimately marginally effective velocities.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide Not a fan of steel. I'm an old fart, been hunting waterfowl since the early 1950's. Hunted exclusively with an A-5 3" 20 gauge, hand loaded with 1.25 oz of #7.5, #6 and/or #4 shot(depending on situation) until lead was banned. I am sold(though pricey) on the Boss copper plated bismuth. However, the comps of shot, steel to bismuth, should be equal or closer to equal using the similar mass per pellet X specific velocity = energy. To my scientific mind that is the most correct comparison. And yes, I understand and agree with your statement of the relative difference between steel shot size and copper plated bismuth shot size relative to downrange velocity & energy.
Thanks.
You said plated shot has more lubrication so it goes down the barrel easier. How is that? It's in a wad.
Often, it's not. I've inspected a lot of shells, too often the shot is stacked higher than the wall of the wad.
I had some spare time, so I decided to put down some notes on why Velocity was important. Since you have a PhD, you may want to grab a spreadsheet calculator and I will dive into the reasons why all the things I write down are part of the shooting equation. First off, a Canada’s goose can travel at 40mph (no wind behind heir backs) which equates to 58.66 ft/sec so roughly 19.5 yards per second. Now let’s assume that geese plan to land inside your decoys and we will assume 20 mph or 29 ft/sec equates to 9 yards /sec. Now let’s examine all he potential factors before you fire your shotgun.
A) acquire the target visually ; 30 seconds
B) flip off the safety; 1-2 seconds
C)Mount the gun; 10 seconds
D)RE-acquire the target and look down the rail, adjust for sustained lead; 15-25 seconds
E) pull trigger,depress clothing like glove,skin tissue and assume a 5lb pull weight ; 3-5 seconds
F) lock time mechanism the amount of time it takes your shotgun to ram the firing pin to the shotshell; 5 milliseconds approx it varies
G) ignite the charge, burn to combust and send shot down the barrel ; not sure let’s assume 5 milliseconds attain speed of 1500 ft / sec
H)auto loader ejects spent shell, loads in next shell let’s assume 5-10 milliseconds? Did the spent shell eject fully? Or hang up, by chamber? Normally expect a clean ejection on a well maintained auto loader, but after 200 rounds they may chug slower
I) done shooting, put the safety back on, reload 1-2 shot shells more birds may be coming
J) limit count ? Don’t get into troubles with game laws they can confiscate your vehicle, firearm,fine you, deny a hunting license. It’s not pretty.
Now if you did everything perfect your goose has a mortal wound. But let’s assume the bird has a mortal wound but it’s wings continue beating and you have to repeat all of the above, minus the mounting part. This goose has now put a bit more distance on you (could add 20 yards) with each wing beat, your pattern will be less dense with each additional yardage added, and you must beat time essentially to RE-apply that second shot for a confirmed kill, or risk the bird falling far off for a long walk while other hunters may still need to fill their quota and additional birds potentially working the field. Worst case scenario you lost a cripple, educated some other birds and scared off working birds retrieving a far off bird.
Having faster shotshells gives you a small statistical advantage, because you may have lost critical seconds due to all the built in time consumed, while the bird was well within your personal comfortable higher probability kill zone. Once the bird is out there 55-60 yards that’s a real stroke to bring them down with a long lead, and not up to every one’s skill level. I have done some kills like this, and while impressive and your buddies will think you are awesome it’s not a higher probability kind of thing on a consistent basis. Sometimes people call this sky busting, and it can educate birds to steer clear of decoy stands, they will influence other birds to be highly cautious and while it might not ruin your today, it could harm a tomorrow or other hunters chances.
All of this time adds up and not all in your favor. What else can you do, well most shotguns have between 5-10lbs pull weight on the trigger. That is adjustable up or down, that said lowering the pull weight can help a bit, but don’t go below your state’s legal pull weight and at some point it could make the gun unsafe and/or illegal.
Practice mounting , acquire target, and dry fire using dummy cartridges, these prevent your firing pin from being damaged by over extension and safer for your springs etc. think of this as a Zen like training like Karate Kid, wax on, wax off until you can mount quickly and effectively get on target.
Winter clothing and length of pull. Mounting your shotgun with winter clothing is much different than a t-shirt in fact your are a different shooter in winter bulky clothing than a dove hunter or skeet shooter in a t-shirt. Whatever you wear it is critical to have the length of pull be comfortable in the clothing you wear hunting and to practice mounting the gun in those cloths. It is not uncommon to have the butt of the gun get hung up on mount when wearing heavy cloths and it will cause a RE-mount which eats valuable seconds. You may find you need to push out further before bringing the gun into your shoulder. Practice,Practice until you can do this so automatically that you barely notice the effort needed.
Gun weight, how fast you can swing your gun depends on your size, strength and the gun weight. That said, your are in the 6-7lbs range for weight. Gun swing is critical whether you swing through or sustain lead. I use both depending on the situation, bird species etc. now what can you do for faster swing which reduces your time to target. I would humbly suggest you don’t need a 32” barrel for one, I personally prefer a 28” barrel, I am 5’7” tall , medium build. Now let’s say you are 6’4” you may like a 32” or 30” barrel which is fine for you. Some people that shoot upland prefer a 26” barrel. Reduced gun weight will give you some advantages in swing speed, remember a body in motion will tend to stay in motion unless acted upon by an opposing force etc. you are going from barely moving to full swing so bear that all in mind and getting 6lbs moving is easier than 9lbs moving is what I am saying. Now it may seem negligible but it’s not because your dealing here in seconds or milliseconds to get ahead of the bird that desperately is fleeing for its life.
In summary, anything you can do to make yourself a quicker shot, a more accurate shooter, and maximize your odds over your decoy layout plays into your statistical harvest opportunities without wasting game, cripples, educating birds, etc. also it’s a bit more fun to do things quickly professionally and cleanly without a ton of fanfare and it’s a bit more rewarding personally to be at the best of your potential.
Daniel, thanks for the thoughtful comments! I do not have any disagreement with your points. Except perhaps I think you are being too generous with how much time a shooter has to prepare, stand and shoot. I almost never have that much time, lol. The point I was pursuing in the video was not that velocity is unhelpful, but mostly that steel loses velocity so rapidly due to its low density that it almost makes no functional difference at 40+ yards.
If #4 steel shot leaves the barrel at 1300 fps at 50 yards it is at 519 fps. If it leaves the barrel at 1800 fps then it is moving 599 at 50 yards. So 500 extra FPS at the muzzle equates to 80 at long range. From a power standpoint, it's useless. Now I see your point that the shot will arrive at the target faster because it will have at least started its journey faster. But it loses the majority of those velocity gains within the first 10 yards, so the gain is not as pronounced as it would seem. The faster shot arrives at the target at 0.167 seconds and the slower shot arrives at 0.195 seconds. So the difference is 0.028 seconds, which per the speed of a fast flying goose equates to 1.64 feet if the goose is going at 40mph. Is that significant, it could be.
But the bigger point I am trying to make is for shots like that, people should use denser metals that retain more velocity and energy at those ranges. Hyper velocity steel is still going slower than regular velocity bismuth at those ranges, and the bismuth his harder. Heavier materials can potentially do better still.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide I agree the denser loads are far preferred to pure steel. Good point that people often misunderstand. When some locations started requiring non toxic or no lead for upland birds I cringed knowing how fast and hard those birds fly and how pure steel would under perform to my expectations.
The clay ranges most of us practice on are mostly lead where it is ok. And one gets tuned into the effectiveness of the denser lead shot so like when we flip to a waterfowl situation you might not make any mental realization of all of that and the impact on real life performance is dramatic.
But you are absolutely right the lighter steel does slow fast and I didn’t really take that forward in my little dissertation. So yeah the denser the better imho because you want to be as close to lead performance as you can be because that will act in a hard hitting way, won’t slow down like it’s less dense counter parts.
There is a whole lot going on from the time you call to waterfowl to when the shooting begins and it’s hard to compact and digest all of that for someone new to hunting for example waterfowl. Even if we sat down went over all of that in person half of it would escape by so to speak even if we could remember every valuable piece of advice. The new person almost has to actually experience some of this with their own eyes. Even now I am sure I didn’t mention things like time dilation effects or how different species of birds beat their wings at different paces. For example imagine the flight of a morning dove, it will beat several times, coast glide up, repeat where as a Canada goes will beat very hard to get their mass moving big long strokes, but once in formation it’s more rhythmic in nature. A hunter needs to kinda understand or know the patter of that for each species I can’t teach that.
If you’re taking 10 seconds to mount your gun and 15-25 seconds to mount your gun none of this matter cause you won’t be shooting at anything by the time you’re ready because the birds are all gone.
@@longridgearchery I never timed it myself if you can do it in less than a second fine. I was trying to make the erosion of time easy to understand. The point being the longer that passes the more likely you will miss your optimum opportunity
High velocity shot is opposed by newton's law every action has an equal and opposite reaction so the faster it accelerates the faster it decelerates
It just doesn't produce the results the marketing suggests it's should lol.
only problem with bismuth here in Finland is that its 100 euros/25 box when steel is 17-25 euros/25 box. if we had geese where i hunt then yeah, but for ducks.. not worth the money.
Wow, that is really expense. About double what it is here. Sorry!
@@TheNewHuntersGuide yeah. I would definitely use bismuth if it was about 2 bucks a pop but prices here are ridiculous. Tungsten is 10 euros/pop at 2 3/4 inch shots. 15 euros/3 inch shell.
WOW! I am sorry! Hopefully it will come down.@@HerkulesRS
You really. Want a shot shell that applies trauma, folds up the Canada’s Goose over the decoys. I have a lanyard nearly full goose bands. I base my recommendation on field experience. For every banded goose you may shoot 30-40 geese or more over multiple seasons. My observation is that Black Cloud 3 1/2 inch. Shell, BB or BBB at 1500 or more ft/sec. Get the faster shells. These shells will inflict significant trauma and less lost birds , more certainty of fatality and lethality. Btw you can harvest more geese than you can humanly consume
Here is why velocity matters: the time from target acquisition (when you see the bird) and when the BB’s hit the birds is your window. The bird has a vote, they can flare, and evade with each wing beat they can add 4ft of distance from you or more in windy conditions. Now you need to add the time your eye picks the target, Mount the firearm, get ahead of target, signals your finger to depress the trigger, compress your finger tissue, gloves if wearing, add the lock mechanism timing, add the time down the barrel of shot, and sustain lead. All this takes time, nothing runs faster or flies harder than some animal that wants to live, by shaving precious seconds using higher velocity shell you bear down quicker, kill inside the decoys or outer edge and inflict mortality. Also you have other hunters wanting to bear down on the same goose sometimes, maybe they did not select their goose, go after yours. You want to beat them to the punch down, fold up that goose first as it might be banded. Get the higher velocity shell it buys you time to get there first with the most. Lastly the further away the more dispersed your shot pattern, you want to minimize that with an in range strike.
Thanks
I really loathe steel shot. I started hunting back when lead was the thing. Since '91 I cussed steel , literally and It has rendered older guns only good with Bismuth . Problem is Bismuth is to me over priced , way over priced( Hevi Shot $55-$60 for 16ga 25 round box) till I found BOSS ( 16 ga $32 a box for 20 rounds). Now my old double 16 ga and older Auto 5's can be used again.
I know it, the price of BOSS makes it possibly the best balance of cost and performance on the market.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide Yes sir , I agree.
PHD = Phony Hater Degree😂 Keep delivering the truth George! I try to do the same thing myself. I’m not always completely accurate but I never lie. I sincerely appreciate your willingness to share the information you have available.
Thanks so much Gene!
You don't need all this new hype. #3s steel shot..full choke. Any shot larger won't compress. Smokes ducks over decoys. Bbb and t shot modified chole wrecks geese. Even high pass shooting. Guess it just depends on how much money you want your birds to cost on the dinner table lol nothing overcomes poor shooting so practice
I have a while video on the way about just that!
The author actually thinks plating on steel shot allow a 75-90 DPH pellet to elongate going through a choke? How many time have you pulled an elongated steel pellet from a duck you shot? Undergoing a chamber pressure of up to 13,000 PSI won’t even cause a dimple.
If you try to elongate steel pellets going through a choke tube, you are risking choke damage,
You misunderstood. It's elongation the shot column with less friction and the accompanying dispersal forces. Never have I attempted to infer that any pellets of any metal are being elongated.