I always like comparing this comic with Pax Americana by Grant Morrison. While Peter Canon Tackles Watchmen’s Impact on the comic medium, Pax Americana Takes about Watchmen and deconstructionist comics in general.
@Jacob DeCoursey: That was my initial impression years ago. I'm going to re-read it tonight and see if that impression stands. I have a feeling I'm going to have to re-read all of Multiversity before I can form an opinion, though.
Jacob DeCoursey Morrison was attempting to do a better watchmen with all the same plot points and themes but showing Moore it didn’t need to be meandering. That was his approach to try to one up him.
I’ve noticed this series as something worthwhile and this video pretty much endorses it for me. I’ll have to check it out. Also as other people have noted, it would be interesting for you to discuss Multiveristy or at the very least Pax Americana in this ongoing discussion for Watchmen. Finally, to your point about Watchmen having this major influence on comic book storytelling, part of it negative, even Alan Moore notes this and that’s my reasoning behind works like Tom Strong, 1963, and Supreme, an attempt for Moore to almost atone for what Watchmen has done to the industry. Great video as always!
Thank you! And you are quite right. Alan Moore has, on occasion, acknowledged the effect of Watchmen. And, yes, I do believe he has said the ABC line was an attempt to make amends for that effect. That's what I recall, regardless. My memory could be flawed. Multiversity has always been something I've intended to do. I may move it up the list, though.
This was a wonderful video and the editing was truly fantastic and at the same time very simple. The subject matter really appeals to me. Structure/ deconstruction of structure and new creative structures. Love your videos bro Bravo 👏
Thanks, man. I mean your editing is tight and appropriate for the material. So, yeah...I'm kind of humbled into stunned silence that you thought it worked. Damn. Thanks!
I really hope that the lack of "Until next time..." doesn't mean the end for this channel !!! You really do keep up a really high standard with each video. These are becoming simply unmissable.
I am very happy you did this. I have been looking for someone else to talk to about the Peter Cannon Thunder Bolt series. Since I did a review of it on my own channel. I liked it and thought that there could be a part 2 in a few years.
I'm glad you watched! I would say Gillen doing a sequel would be unnecessary. I think his time would be better spent continuing to work on his own material and being an example of what he suggested in Peter Cannon.
At the time, Watchmen was considered to be the first graphic novel that invited its readers to take on a full analysis regarding the subject of ones examination of ambiguities influence on the framework of an unconventional narrative. It was a trendsetter for the illustration of postmodern nihilism. Its contribution, there for, must not be undermined as possibly being able to create a negative effect with its followers due to a lack of creativity within the industry.
Deconstructing Formalism sounds like a pretentious college course and you made it incredibility interesting and easy to understand. Please keep up the good work. It's brilliant.
There is a good discussion to be had about the overall influence of Watchmen. Perhaps discussing the impact it had on readers as well as the changes going on in the comic book concurrently with the release of the series.
One of the writer/artists that often works the 9 grid comics page is Keith Giffen. IMO, he is a neglected genius. With the amount of work he has produced over the year, I'd think there would be something that might stir a posting by you? Oh, and "Astro City"? I'd think 2 or possibly 3 postings would be needed. Thank you, for all of your insightful, inspired work.
Flash Fact: I actually mentioned Giffen in my original script, since he adheres to the nine panel grid consistently. However, I edited that bit out because it seemed necessary to elaborate on the point any more than I already had.
3:38 - Interesting that you consider The Doctor analogous to Doctor Manhattan and John analogous to Rorschach. I thought it was the inverse. The Doctor discusses his desire to help people being born from outrage at the Kitty Genovese murder, hold black and white views, and says "Hrm.", as does Rorschach. John is in a sexual relationship with Lauren a la Laurie and Jon and seems to have trouble with time.
Funny how this could apply to any medium . I see games like Resident Evil 4 that are objectively great but it caused a definite creative runt that was the generation of cover based over the shoulder shooters with quick time events . Another would be the assassin creed series with its open world design formula messing up future open world games and it’s just very tiring
With what you aaid about the shadow watchmen left over comics is also what Grant Morrison said in their book Supergods. That Watchmen unintentionally said to superhero comics that they need to adapt or die. The feeling that there's no need to do classic heroes facing off against sci-fi/fantasy concepts. They need to be set in the real world and you need to show everything that goes wrong with playing hero. As well as the feeling that we must be copying Watchmen to be good and successful. We need dark stories wity anti heroes. This is what led to the daro age of comics. People thinking that 90's antiheroes equal what watchmen did.
I would like to add that the Message of Peter Cannon that “We can do better” is also the message of Watchmen. Alan Moore has said multiple times that he wanted to show with Watchmen what could be done with comics, not set a standard of what had to be. The idea was to free comics from their restrictions, same as Peter Cannon did with the restrictions Watchmen unintentionally set. What Peter Cannon is (unintentionally) doing in trying to free comics from Watchmen’s influence is in fact confirming Moore’s original intent.
Quite true and a good postscript I wish I had added. Alan Moore has definitely said that in the past. It's unfortunate that many take that work as the blueprint on how to do superhero comics. It's one way. It's the most successful way. But it's not the only way.
Oh, I absolutely will. As I mentioned at the end, there was a lot left over to talk about. In fact, there was a lot I cut from this video. But all of that is more applicable to video dedicated to Watchmen. Which seems to be my immediate fate. :)
I never really read the Peter Cannon mini-series nor Watchmen, but I can understand Watchmen’s influence on comics and how it effected the media both positive and negative. From what I understand on Peter Cannon Thunderbolt, it’s similar to Kurt Busiek’s Avengers and Astro City or Grant Morrison’s All Star Superman and Flex Mentallo, in that their optimistic reconstructions of the Superhero genre, rather then a nihilistic deconstruction of the media, basically an antithesis to Alan Moore’s Watchmen, Miracle Man, or Captain Britain. In short, the industry should try to escape the shadow of Watchmen and become more critical towards the graphic novel, and Alan Moore. Another thing I like to add, do you plan on covering Moore and Davis’s short tenure on Captain Britain, Thor by Walt Simonson, or even Green Arrow by Mike Grell, Garth Ennis’s The Demon, Mark Gruenwald’s Squadron Supreme and Captain America, or John Wagner’s Judge Dredd. If so, I like to here your thoughts on them.
I have desperately been trying to find the time to do both Captain Britain and Squadron Supreme! And something on Judge Dredd, too. So, yes, I do intend to get to all of these works at some point in the future.
Darn! I missed this miniseries. I really liked the original Pete Morisi version at Charlton, and thought the character had strong potential. But when DC first came out with their own Thunderbolt comic, I was pretty disappointed. While this newer miniseries obviously plays with Watchmen and other more modern comics creators and styles, it also seems to take the Thunderbolt character pretty seriously and explores at least some of that potential.
"How did the cool one in that shit movie put it? Never compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon" Do they...Do they not know we're not supposed to find Rorschach cool? We're supposed to find him awful and pants-shittingly terrifying.
I personally don't think Watchmen can be easily bypassed as long as continuous superhero comics are the mainstream flow of the industry. No, not everything has to be compared to it, but going on without acknowledgment or self-awareness only strengthens its grip. And while many smaller creators in my opinion successfully escape comparisons, the majority of the mainstream work is still undeniably caught in the long shadow cast by it.
Thanks, man! I appreciate you spreading the word. I didn't even know you were on Twitter, actually. I'm not sure who Black Jesus is, but I'll take his approval nonetheless. Heh.
The "rule of thirds" in design and 9 panel comic book layout have nothing to do with each other. One talks about the location of objects along those lines, the other is dividing content with those lines. If you don't use either, I could see why you would think they are similar, but they are not. Thank you for your content.
Wait, wait, wait... Explain that one... How is turning someone gay "updating" their sexuality "for a modern audience"? Is that to say modern audiences are all gay, or only want to see gay couples? Or, was that just a really, really bad way to say what you actually meant, leaving me with no idea what you actually meant?
I think it’s to say the character was gay coded but the character wasn’t out gay because at the time of the characters creation homosexuality was not as widely accepted as it is today. I’ve never read Thunderbolt so I’m not sure but that’d be my guess.
@@bonzos9305 Perhaps, though in both the book and the movie, I'd say I never noticed any such undertones. As far as I'm concerned, any "coding" was transplanted there by the person seeing the "code". Besides, if men are women, and women are men... How does one properly code "gay"?
I wanted to like Peter Cannon a lot more than I did. It reminded me of the worst of David Lynch, when he just decides to get weird for its own sake. Still, a great video nonetheless as per usual.
I always like comparing this comic with Pax Americana by Grant Morrison. While Peter Canon Tackles Watchmen’s Impact on the comic medium, Pax Americana Takes about Watchmen and deconstructionist comics in general.
I loved Pax Americana. Morrison’s interpretation of The Question is probably my favorite next to Ditko.
Real Hars Whenever I read that book I always read it in a different order because it’s so disorganized you could read it anyway
I read Pax and thought it was way too short to do whatever it was trying to do. It should have been a miniseries instead of a one-shot.
@Jacob DeCoursey: That was my initial impression years ago. I'm going to re-read it tonight and see if that impression stands. I have a feeling I'm going to have to re-read all of Multiversity before I can form an opinion, though.
Jacob DeCoursey Morrison was attempting to do a better watchmen with all the same plot points and themes but showing Moore it didn’t need to be meandering. That was his approach to try to one up him.
I’ve noticed this series as something worthwhile and this video pretty much endorses it for me. I’ll have to check it out. Also as other people have noted, it would be interesting for you to discuss Multiveristy or at the very least Pax Americana in this ongoing discussion for Watchmen. Finally, to your point about Watchmen having this major influence on comic book storytelling, part of it negative, even Alan Moore notes this and that’s my reasoning behind works like Tom Strong, 1963, and Supreme, an attempt for Moore to almost atone for what Watchmen has done to the industry. Great video as always!
Thank you! And you are quite right. Alan Moore has, on occasion, acknowledged the effect of Watchmen. And, yes, I do believe he has said the ABC line was an attempt to make amends for that effect. That's what I recall, regardless. My memory could be flawed. Multiversity has always been something I've intended to do. I may move it up the list, though.
Increíble ensayo!
I love your channel dude, so underrated!
This was a wonderful video and the editing was truly fantastic and at the same time very simple. The subject matter really appeals to me. Structure/ deconstruction of structure and new creative structures. Love your videos bro Bravo 👏
Thanks, man. I mean your editing is tight and appropriate for the material. So, yeah...I'm kind of humbled into stunned silence that you thought it worked. Damn. Thanks!
Eddie Campbell too was a UK creator; he's from Scotland, which for now is part of the UK.
Oh, yes, I see I was unclear in the video. Eddie Campbell was established prior to Watchmen was what I meant. Not that he wasn't a UK creator.
Everybody: is it as good as watchmen tho
Alan moore: bra thats not the point
Will be reading this soon! The sustained intellectual depth of your reviews/commentary is very rare and rewarding to hear.
Thank you, sir. As always, you are far too kind. Thanks for your continued attention.
I really hope that the lack of "Until next time..." doesn't mean the end for this channel !!! You really do keep up a really high standard with each video. These are becoming simply unmissable.
I absolutely love the humble thank you for watching at the end. You have swiftly become one of my favorite creators
Whelp, going to have to pick this up now!
I am very happy you did this. I have been looking for someone else to talk to about the Peter Cannon Thunder Bolt series. Since I did a review of it on my own channel. I liked it and thought that there could be a part 2 in a few years.
I'm glad you watched! I would say Gillen doing a sequel would be unnecessary. I think his time would be better spent continuing to work on his own material and being an example of what he suggested in Peter Cannon.
@@StrangeBrainParts i'd agree with you, it doesn't need a sequel. But it would be nice. Thanks again.
I did ask Gillen about a sequel on Twitter and he was quick to say that's it, there won't be any more.
@@jeremycline9542 okay, thats a bummer
At the time, Watchmen was considered to be the first graphic novel that invited its readers to take on a full analysis regarding the subject of ones examination of ambiguities influence on the framework of an unconventional narrative. It was a trendsetter for the illustration of postmodern nihilism. Its contribution, there for, must not be undermined as possibly being able to create a negative effect with its followers due to a lack of creativity within the industry.
Deconstructing Formalism sounds like a pretentious college course and you made it incredibility interesting and easy to understand. Please keep up the good work. It's brilliant.
There is a good discussion to be had about the overall influence of Watchmen. Perhaps discussing the impact it had on readers as well as the changes going on in the comic book concurrently with the release of the series.
This is really quite insightful but funnily enough, I only found it via Gillen's own newsletter.
This video is next level.
I gotta pick this up
One of the writer/artists that often works the 9 grid comics page is Keith Giffen. IMO, he is a neglected genius. With the amount of work he has produced over the year, I'd think there would be something that might stir a posting by you?
Oh, and "Astro City"? I'd think 2 or possibly 3 postings would be needed.
Thank you, for all of your insightful, inspired work.
Flash Fact: I actually mentioned Giffen in my original script, since he adheres to the nine panel grid consistently. However, I edited that bit out because it seemed necessary to elaborate on the point any more than I already had.
3:38 - Interesting that you consider The Doctor analogous to Doctor Manhattan and John analogous to Rorschach. I thought it was the inverse. The Doctor discusses his desire to help people being born from outrage at the Kitty Genovese murder, hold black and white views, and says "Hrm.", as does Rorschach. John is in a sexual relationship with Lauren a la Laurie and Jon and seems to have trouble with time.
Bravo!
I think the only comic that heavily impacted me that does it’s own thing was ZERO by Ales Kot , would love for you to take a look at it .
Funny how this could apply to any medium . I see games like Resident Evil 4 that are objectively great but it caused a definite creative runt that was the generation of cover based over the shoulder shooters with quick time events . Another would be the assassin creed series with its open world design formula messing up future open world games and it’s just very tiring
Is this version of Peter Cannon in the same continuity as the last Dynamite Comics run?
With what you aaid about the shadow watchmen left over comics is also what Grant Morrison said in their book Supergods. That Watchmen unintentionally said to superhero comics that they need to adapt or die. The feeling that there's no need to do classic heroes facing off against sci-fi/fantasy concepts. They need to be set in the real world and you need to show everything that goes wrong with playing hero.
As well as the feeling that we must be copying Watchmen to be good and successful. We need dark stories wity anti heroes. This is what led to the daro age of comics. People thinking that 90's antiheroes equal what watchmen did.
Speaking of comic series that don't follow the example of Watchmen, have you ever read "DC : The New Frontier" by Darwyn Cooke?
I would like to add that the Message of Peter Cannon that “We can do better” is also the message of Watchmen. Alan Moore has said multiple times that he wanted to show with Watchmen what could be done with comics, not set a standard of what had to be. The idea was to free comics from their restrictions, same as Peter Cannon did with the restrictions Watchmen unintentionally set. What Peter Cannon is (unintentionally) doing in trying to free comics from Watchmen’s influence is in fact confirming Moore’s original intent.
Quite true and a good postscript I wish I had added. Alan Moore has definitely said that in the past. It's unfortunate that many take that work as the blueprint on how to do superhero comics. It's one way. It's the most successful way. But it's not the only way.
Strange Brain Parts
Feel free to use the idea if you make a part 2 👍
Oh, I absolutely will. As I mentioned at the end, there was a lot left over to talk about. In fact, there was a lot I cut from this video. But all of that is more applicable to video dedicated to Watchmen. Which seems to be my immediate fate. :)
I never really read the Peter Cannon mini-series nor Watchmen, but I can understand Watchmen’s influence on comics and how it effected the media both positive and negative.
From what I understand on Peter Cannon Thunderbolt, it’s similar to Kurt Busiek’s Avengers and Astro City or Grant Morrison’s All Star Superman and Flex Mentallo, in that their optimistic reconstructions of the Superhero genre, rather then a nihilistic deconstruction of the media, basically an antithesis to Alan Moore’s Watchmen, Miracle Man, or Captain Britain.
In short, the industry should try to escape the shadow of Watchmen and become more critical towards the graphic novel, and Alan Moore.
Another thing I like to add, do you plan on covering Moore and Davis’s short tenure on Captain Britain, Thor by Walt Simonson, or even Green Arrow by Mike Grell, Garth Ennis’s The Demon, Mark Gruenwald’s Squadron Supreme and Captain America, or John Wagner’s Judge Dredd.
If so, I like to here your thoughts on them.
I have desperately been trying to find the time to do both Captain Britain and Squadron Supreme! And something on Judge Dredd, too. So, yes, I do intend to get to all of these works at some point in the future.
Strange Brain Parts Great! I can’t wait for those videos.
Darn! I missed this miniseries. I really liked the original Pete Morisi version at Charlton, and thought the character had strong potential. But when DC first came out with their own Thunderbolt comic, I was pretty disappointed. While this newer miniseries obviously plays with Watchmen and other more modern comics creators and styles, it also seems to take the Thunderbolt character pretty seriously and explores at least some of that potential.
I can like and comment. I must like and comment. I WILL like and comment.
Why did not you say "until next time"?😭
It was deafening in its absence, agreed
I was waiting for that too.
"How did the cool one in that shit movie put it? Never compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon"
Do they...Do they not know we're not supposed to find Rorschach cool? We're supposed to find him awful and pants-shittingly terrifying.
Did you read the story? The guy who said that is supposed to be the book's version of Rorschach, of course he's going to think that Rorschach is cool
I personally don't think Watchmen can be easily bypassed as long as continuous superhero comics are the mainstream flow of the industry. No, not everything has to be compared to it, but going on without acknowledgment or self-awareness only strengthens its grip. And while many smaller creators in my opinion successfully escape comparisons, the majority of the mainstream work is still undeniably caught in the long shadow cast by it.
I was glad to find a video about this series; on Twitter a lot of people will recommend this to those looking for a "worthy sequel" to Watchmen.
Wich is ironic, because as far as i cant tell This series is trying to do the opposite, to tell people to stop comparing everything to Watchmen.
@@brunofranco4416 Indeed
@Bruno Franco: Indeed, sir! Quite ironic.
I had 0 interest in this series prior to this video. I think this is your finest one yet. Nicely done.
Considering you've been around a while, that's saying something. Thank you, sir.
Hey I posted this video on Twitter and Black Jesus approves
Thanks, man! I appreciate you spreading the word. I didn't even know you were on Twitter, actually. I'm not sure who Black Jesus is, but I'll take his approval nonetheless. Heh.
I don’t think this series is perfect; honestly I don’t even think it’s amazing. But it might be my favorite comic of the 2010s.
...I was never much of a Watchmen fan anyway.
The "rule of thirds" in design and 9 panel comic book layout have nothing to do with each other.
One talks about the location of objects along those lines, the other is dividing content with those lines.
If you don't use either, I could see why you would think they are similar, but they are not.
Thank you for your content.
i still prefer the jonathan lau version.
Thunderbolt is pretentious and poorly written.
Wait, wait, wait... Explain that one... How is turning someone gay "updating" their sexuality "for a modern audience"?
Is that to say modern audiences are all gay, or only want to see gay couples? Or, was that just a really, really bad way to say what you actually meant, leaving me with no idea what you actually meant?
I think it’s to say the character was gay coded but the character wasn’t out gay because at the time of the characters creation homosexuality was not as widely accepted as it is today. I’ve never read Thunderbolt so I’m not sure but that’d be my guess.
@@bonzos9305 Perhaps, though in both the book and the movie, I'd say I never noticed any such undertones. As far as I'm concerned, any "coding" was transplanted there by the person seeing the "code".
Besides, if men are women, and women are men... How does one properly code "gay"?
missed this series completely
Oh lord, make sure you don’t mistakenly pick up the 2011 series. It was dreck.
I read it a while ago and I thought it had a strong start but fell off pretty quickly. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone either
I wanted to like Peter Cannon a lot more than I did. It reminded me of the worst of David Lynch, when he just decides to get weird for its own sake. Still, a great video nonetheless as per usual.
I can feel the forced gayness like in many modern comics. I'll skip. What happened to organic relationship like in older comics, straight or gay.
My goodness, the work is amazing... and your research! Eddie Campbell. What a surprise.
I didn't touch upon it, but it's a very good Eddie Campbell homage.
@@StrangeBrainParts It really is. Please keep up your good work.