Is Marvel's Loki Accurate?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 มิ.ย. 2021
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Bibliography:
Anders Andren, “Behind Heathendom,”: Archaeological Studies of Old Norse Religion,” Scottish Archaeological Journal, 2005.
Anders Andren, Kristina Jennbert, Catharina Raudvere, Old Norse religion in long-term perspectives,
Stefan Brink, “How Uniform was the Old Norse Religion?,” www.brepolsonline.net/doi/abs...
Pearson, "The origins of Old Norse ritual and religion in European perspective."
Jennbert, "Animals and Humans: Recurrent Symbiosis in Archaeology and Old Norse Religion."
Dr. Crawford's Poetic Edda: www.amazon.com/shop/religionforbreakfast
Do you have a video that talks about the origins of the "sign of the horns" hand gesture used by metal bands? If not I'd really like to see a video talking about it.
You should have also discussed the 2018 god of war game it also deals with norse mythology.
A mighty team up! 😊
Is the entire conversation exclusive in patreon?
Glad you are tackling some religious content aside from the Middle-Eastern traditions . . . .
Thanks again for having me, Andrew! I had a great time talking to you.
Jackson!!
A surprise crossover event worthy of Marvel!
A surprising but welcome crossover.
My two favorite religion youtubers :D
Woah, what is this a cross over episode? Did not expect to see you both in one day!
The real Loki probably didn't have a British accent
He is a Trickster, he could have any accent the trick required!
@@dragonmaster613 takes an accent to pass an image. Most americans think of the british accent as something charming that shows intelect and refinement, and so, he uses it. I'd really like to see him changing his appearance and mannerism to appeal to different people, or even better:
Change his appearance and demeanor to look stupid, so people will pay him no mind and he'll do whatever he wants.
@@marcospatricio8283
Maybe that's how he becomes a politician....errr sorry...ummm...celebrity that gets into a political office.
Maybe appears with duck lips, and a bad spray tan, using double speak, lies, and perceived charm and wit, under the guise of populism swaying the ignorant, sheep of the population?
Unless he was with the Great Heathen Army and chilled in Northumbria for like 100 years
and didn't descend from Zeus either.
I once read a book, sadly forgot the name, where loki goes to a small village and asks if he could get a bed for the night. The next day, as reward, he pays them with a golden coin, which is far more valuable than anyone there ever had. He places it on a rock in the middle of the village and says its for everyone, and one guy is a protector to guard to coin so nobody takes it for themselves. Then later in the story he comes back and the village is wiped out, and the golden coin, completely smooth from everyone taking it, lays in a dead mans hand. That story always felt like a more accurate depiction of a trickster god.
It sounds like the relic guy’s tale from The Canterbury Tales.
@Cody Little Well, I've heard that originally Odin was just as much a trickster as Loki, before the myths changed to make Loki more villainous and the only trickster
Or something
In the version I read, it was a ring iirc
That reminds me of Eris and her golden apple that causes chaos.
This reminds me of, no kidding, a story about Jesus and a bunch of bandits.
One thing you forgot to mention is that in Norse mythology, Loki is not Thor's adoptive brother, he's Odin's blood-brother. That is, they did a little ritual that's still sometimes done in Scandinavia even today where you cut your palm or a finger, and mix blood with someone else, symbolically making them your brother or sister. Loki and Odin were childhood friends, but for whatever reason, Marvel decided to make Loki much younger than Odin and have him be adopted by him instead.
Well, they did that to make him a more personal antagonist to Thor. Since we're following Thor, it's easier to get invested when you hear "Oh no, it's my step brother who is jealous of me!" than "Oh no, it's my dad's childhood friend who likes doing tricks and getting impregnated by horses!"
Well Marvel also decided that Thor wasn't even born until the end of the 10th century, which is when most of the Nordic world had already become Christian. So that doesn't make any sense.
Marvels norse gods are not meant to be the original norse gods. Or they are, but in an alternate reimagined world created by Marvel. So comparing them to the original gods and looking for accuracies is pretty pointless.
@@Oozaru85 Yeah, we all know that. The whole point of the video was to do a comparison, not crap on Marvel. But Marvel have made mistakes even within their own universe. Having Loki and Thor debut at the end of the Viking age instead of the beginning of the Viking age is an obvious anachronistic mistake, even by their standards. Another mistake, solely within the comics, was introducing Loki as an Olympian God, which they corrected later.
That ritual thing... I assume these days they make sure they have compatible blood types. As if not that seems a lil dangerous imo. (Tho idfk. I'm not a doctor)
I choose to imagine the Lokesenna as an epic rap battle between the gods
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyting
Look it up. This sort of poetic insult fighting is so totally a precursor to rap battles. It just has to be! LOL.
thegi thu gordon
It's "flyting" which occurs in a lot of ancient and mediaeval literature and is still indulged in by boxers as part of the build up to a bout. Donald Trump is a modern exponent.
Bragging is older than man. Monkeys do it well. Rap is just the most recent, most illiterate corporate commercialization (not real rappers like Kool Keith,I mean all those fake whackers y’all listen to 😹
@@peterwelsh1932 🤓🤓
Salmon Loki can't hurt you
Salmon Loki: 8:34
Hel, the goddess suffers the same as Hades. As "Hades" is both the name of the god and his realm.
Sounds to me like there is a common indo-european root that connects Greek and Norse mythology.
@@ub3rfr3nzy94 since they're both in Europe, it may be more "euro-european"
Though I don't know much about these things and may be wrong
Wait,what? I thought the Realm of Hades was called Tartarus
@@whytho1534 No, the Greek underworld that Hades rules over is also called Hades. Tartarus is a specific place in the underworld.
I actually grew up in a part of a residential area called "Lokes hage" ("Lokis pasture") in Sweden in the 1980s. But the name was given during the 1970s. It was not in any way an ancient name. There was also "Tors hage", "Balders hage", "Frejas hage" and "Odens hage".
Sounds like a product of the new age revivalism of norse mythology (which saw a resurgence around the 70's)
There *are* some much older "Loki" place names. Read Playing With Fire by Dagulf Loptson for details.
Brilliant crossover!
Agreed
Me, when I see the title: Odd that this is a ReligionForBreakfast video and not a Jackson Crawford video.
Me, one minute in: Epic crossover!
There are at least three Jackson Crawford videos
on Loki.
I...didn't say there weren't.
We talked about Loki in my Mythology and Folklore class in college. My professor was unsure how much Loki’s “evilness” was post Christian and a need for a devil like figure which I thought was interesting. Since Snorri and others who were writing were writing in a very Christian context and “trickster” was not a part of the pantheon. Lol. Even if Snorri was faithful in many ways, he had to make sure the Church didn’t see it as “anti-Christian,” it was a fine line to walk I am sure.
Great video!
There are some trickers in the Bible,, most notable I think is Jacob. But yes, as a Scandinavian myself growing up on these stories and Christian faith, I never saw Loki as an analogy for Satan.
Having the mythos recounted by a Christian is just wrong. But i suppose we have to work with the things we got, so shoutout to the christians and the muslims for putting most of the mythology in writing so that we at least can get an idea of what stories our ancestors told around the hearth.
Praise aside you definitely need to keep the different perspectives in mind when reading the recounts 👍
@@KarryKarryKarry Same thing happened with the Irish Gods. Revised by Christian monks to fall more in line with Christian thinking.
@@shannonmoore2795 No the evidence does not support that and I doubt many academics who specialise in the subject matter would come to that conclusion. It would make no sense for the Christians create a non Christian pagan God that gives validity to pre Christian mythology. I recommend you look at the videos of Dr Jackson Crawford, a scholar who specialises in Norse Mythology. His videos are easy to consume and he quotes all his source material. Loki is attested in pre Christian skalds. The Christians may have attempted to demonise Loki, and liken him to Satan, but they didn't create him. The Christians twisted and rewrote much of our indigenous western European myth in order to fit into a more Christian narrative, but they certainly didn't invent the original myths.
@@KarryKarryKarry a
Thanks for delving into this. Hel Lokisdotter was done so wrong in the movies. She was a benevolent and compassionate figure in the old stories, wanting to care for those misfit souls who were forgotten or left behind. Not everyone gets to go to Valhalla, so what happens to those people? Hel takes care of them as best she can.
Which really begs the question of how “evil” Loki sending Baldr to Hel was
There's a reason why I personally refer to Marvel!Hel as "Evil Galadriel", besides the fact that Cate Blanchett played both Hela in Thor: Ragnarok and Galadriel in the first Lord of the Rings movie.
Yeah: that's what I thought! Marvel are good on Loki but bad on Hel!
@Grace Carpinter I thought the Rings Of Power version was "Evil Galadriel"? 🙂
It's actually surprising how similar Hel and Hades are, in both their name (as in they're names for both the person and their realm) and their modern misrepresentation
Sees loki video: "its lit"
Sees Dr Crawford: *air horn noises*
Same here!
Insults in poetic form? Was this history's first recorded rap battle?
Okay, watched farther into the video, it def is a rap battle.
According to Wikipedia, no, not even close. For anyone interested, flyting is the square way of saying rap battle
In alpine parts of Austria there's a similar tradition (called "Gstanzl singen").
The Irish had poets who could lacerate you with their satires. The Irish and Norse had different languages and cultures. But they shared that world -- fighting, trading and marrying, in turn.
They swapped stories and artistic motifs.
@@kmaher1424 Ireland was a quite homogeneous Gaelic christian culture up until the period where Danes needed more land for their nobles. After that our cultures got quite mixed into each other. Dublin is a nice example of a longship harbour evolving into something more than a staging spot.
I've been waIting for this crossover
Is much better tham a DC Marvel movies crossover
“And a half corpse woman” why is this literally the way I described Hel to my friends
It was your description so I'm not sure........but if you started a garden centre you could call it Potts' pots or if you started a garden centre that also sold cannabis you could call it Potts' pots and pot.
I was a norse mythology nerd, and I was expecting hel is gonna call loki dad or something.
I'd love to get your take on the way gods are portrayed in "American Gods", the novel or show.
Crawford covers some of that on his channel.
When reading the eddas, I always pictured Loki as an agent of chaos. Good, bad, it didn't really matter, but when he showed up, you knew things were about to get escalated.
Also, wasn't Odin's manliness also called into question, mainly through practicing the feminine magic saidr? He was another very interesting character, who was recognized as being brave and wise but whose main drive seemed to be to acquire more knowledge and power, no matter what the cost to himself. He sacrificed himself to get access to the runes, I can completely see him breaking taboos to see the future.
I agree on both points. Loki is an instigator of change. A representative of entropy that allows for new things to come into being
Yeah, I think only Thor and Tyr can be called hyper masculine among the Norse gods, though Loki and Odin in particular participated in some traditionally "female" activities and roles that, if they weren't gods and were human beings instead, would get them ostracised from their communities. Norse culture wasn't really what would consider to be particularly sexist (by that I mean women and men had equal protections and freedoms, women were highly respected as priestesses, and harming a woman was considered a very serious crime), especially compared to other cultures at the time, but they had very strict gender roles that people were expected to adhere to, and magic was pretty much only practiced by women.
Loki is totally the original enby deity: hero and villain, male and female, æsir and jötunn. Later comics have played with his gender to reflect this and bring these old ideas into their modern interpretation. Odin, OTOH, always struck me as simply being more mature and above gendered distinctions that would’ve restricted him from learning magic. I don’t think Odin is supposed to be a paragon of masculinity or even good virtues, but the cunning and wisdom of experience. This grants him a more all-encompassing domain of power than say hyper-masculine Thor.
I’m also thinking of how gaining a woman’s wisdom seems a part of other hero-myths (Chúchulainn studying under Scáthach comes to mind) so it could be that this transgression of learning magic is a part of that hero’s journey toward becoming a complete being.
@@AnkhAnanku The original myths made it pretty clear that loki was a male agent of chaos, and that he was functionally no different from other Jotunn in terms of ability.
It looks more like modern interpretations are either ignoring the source material, or interpreting it in a way that fits their own world view.
@@supremecaffeine2633 naw, brah. See above, Loki’s masculinity was totally questionable back in pagan times (probably).
What the comics are doing _is_ a modern interpretation, though: the language and nuance are *wholly* of this generation. But mythological figures have always changed as the stories got passed down through the living, evolving cultures that kept them. There was no static, original “canon” story until they stopped being told and were written down, and those are only snapshots of what those myths were at the time and how they were interpreted by that particular author/collecter/chronicler.
The way that actual academics TH-cam are collaborating recently (e.g. RFB, Dr. Crawford, Simon Roper, Polymathy, etc.) makes me really happy. We’re slowly entering the age of peer reviewed TH-cam
I know this is pure speculation on my part, but what if the reason Loki seems to be invisible in rituals and location names is that the people believed saying his name or invoking his image risks drawing his attention. So they would want to avoid acknowledging him as often as possible otherwise he'd show and bring wrought and ruin upon them. He'd show his face and be like, "Hey. Did you know there are some really awesome apples outside? I'll show you."
Even if it is speculation, it is almost certainly true, or partially true. People in every culture have beings, figures, creatures or such whose name they don't wish to invoke, even if they respect (venerate) them. For example, how the original Proto Indo-European word for "bear" was lost in the Germanic and Slavic languages for fear that if you mentioned Bear, one would appear. Same thing with Loki -- to name a place or a child after him would definitely attract his attention.
Interesting theory, tho sadly rather impossible to prove or disprove.
Interestingly this already seem to apply to two other gods, the siblings Freyr and Freyja. Their "names" literally means Lord and Lady.
Though in the case of Freyr, at least, his actual name seems to have survived, as Scandinavians know him as Yngve-Frøy (Yngvi-Freyr).
Kind of like Voldemor
@@GPrinceps so a Bear was voldemort
He who must not be named
I have always enjoyed norse mythology. I remember as a child I would read all I could find in the library, and devoured the Danish comic books about the Norse gods - Valhall - written by Henning Kure and Hans Ranche-Madsen, illustrated by Peter Madsen. Loke seemed to me to be the bored child, who makes trouble and then turns up to save the day and be the hero - even though he caused the trouble in the first place.
He must have been the inspiration for Jimmy Neutron.
That's Loki in a nutshell. There's a really great Norwegian book I read about Norse mythology, that puts all the stories in as close to a chronological order as possible, so you can read it more as one long story. Loki kind of starts out as a bored mischief-maker who does easily gets into trouble or causes trouble for others out of carelessness or boredom, but then he's also usually the one to get them out of trouble in the end. By the time Lokasenna happens and he kills the servant and insults the other gods, he's had enough of feeling like the other gods don't respect or care about him, and he lashes out in a fit of rage, and that's the end of his friendship with the gods. I imagine part of the reason Norse people don't seem to have actively worshipped Loki much was because they might have been worried about hastening Ragnarok by doing so. People were very superstitious in those days, after all.
I loved the Valhall comics too. The story I remember best is where Höder (I'm using the Swedish spellings of their names) is actually jealous of Balder and Loki is desperately trying to save Balder's but accidentally causes his death.
As a Swedish person, who have been educated in this mythology since I was a kid in school, it’s really fun to see Marvels take on Norse mythology:)
about time you two got together. Two of my favourite youtubers in the same place at the same time talking about my favourite subjects Religion Mythology and comics! I have learned so much from you both and you should be both better recognised for your amazing efforts!
The depiction of Ragnarok is grim, but I love the very end when Thor's sons return and find the golden chess pieces of the Aesir in the grass, leading to the rebuilding of humanity.
Magni and modi?
Baldr gets revived, thats pretty neat too, right?
How thas humanity come from 2 man?
@@cosmicdoggo9296 They don't restart humanity, a couple named Lif and Lifrasir do. Modi and Magni likely serve as their major gods, taking the place of their father
When Odin sacrificed himself to himself, he also stabbed himself with his spear.
So he was hanging from this tree with a spear through his torso. And after doing that for a while he was granted magical rune powers.
A sacrifice of oneself to oneself by hanging from a tree with a spear puncture. Where have we heard that before?
@@alankent are you implying Norse mythology was inspired by Christianity?
@@TykusBalrog The reverse really
@@TheOneCalledSloth given that literally every single detail of the story is different, i find that equally unlikely.
@@TheOneCalledSloth That makes zero sense, the story of Odin is likely much younger than the one of Jesus.
This is one of the better collaborations I've seen on any mythological subject. Light hearted, but extremely informative and rooted in what we actually know. Very well done, gentlemen.
Interesting... Mexico has enormous re-encaments of the crucifixion during easter. Perhaps Lokasenna was something similar: The re-enacment of important mythical events.
I very much enjoyed this, though it's largely through a Christian lens. There's nothing wrong with that; in fact it's quite understandable, considering conversion was in full swing by the time the Eddas were written. Most of the context of the stories had already been forgotten to be replaced by a Christian one. The concept of "good vs. evil" in pre-Christian mythology was closer to an "us vs. them", and tended to shift depending on either which "family" of gods was in power, and even depending on which god the "camera" is following around (or which god the "main character" of the tale is beholden to). Loki had a hand (or other body part) in every major story in Norse mythology. If you remove him, you remove his deeds and nothing happens at all; it would be an incredibly boring read. Loki did do many questionable deeds, but so did the other gods. Odin learned witchcraft (which was seen as a woman's thing, not an evil thing) and used it, dressed in drag, lied, and several more things. All of the gods did things we would consider amoral by today's standards, and tried making excuses for them in the Lokasenna. All of them but Loki, that is. He lied, cheated, stole, killed, and did all manner of "evil" things to get himself out of situations he had put himself in (usually to help the Aesir in some way, who he counted as family). He was also the only one of them who was shameless and didn't try to defend himself in the Lokasenna, instead he pointed out to his fellows that they were no better or worse than he. It was a very angry pointing-out, things went genuinely sour between him and the Aesir when they kidnapped his three monstrous children and imprisoned them in three separate ways; the Aesir, at the feast in Aegir's hall (in the Lokasenna) felt vindicated in the entire string of events that had happened up to that point possibly without realizing they had taken Loki for granted, and that was before kidnapping his kids. The entire story reads as a train wreck of a drama, and while Loki was a vindictive stick, he wasn't a two-dimensional character. None of them were, come to think of it. Odin and Loki were sworn blood-brothers, also.
Well said. This is why Loki has always been one of my favourite mythological figures, because he's so nuanced. He's not downright insane or evil like many of the Greek gods, but he's also not portrayed in an entirely righteous light like many of the other Norse gods either. He does both good and bad things, but you can clearly see the reasoning behind much of what he did, and why he eventually became angry with the other gods, which lead to his eventual imprisonment.
@@Niobesnuppa He's one of my favorites, too. I wasn't happy with the way his character was butchered in entertainment media. Come to think of it, they butchered that entire pantheon pretty good... The actors were amazing, though.
The problem is that we don't HAVE a pre-christian lens on germanic / norse mythology. There's literally no first-hand accounts from these cultures before the forced conversion to christianity.
Norse myths without loki: So the Asir and the Vanir had a war, and the Asir won, but their city was undefended and they all died via Joten attacks. The end. No more myths
Fascinating! Interesting topic, and thanks for turning us on to Dr. Crawford's channel!
More collabs like that!!! Two of my favorite religious/historical studies youtubers in one video! Awesome!
Always enjoy your videos, and this channel. Thanks, Andrew!
I followed both of these guys for a long time and enjoyed their content. It’s cool to finally see them both in the same video.
Someone called Lok was invoked alongside another called Wod in a healing charm from Lincolnshire. lok may refer to luck or to Loki and the latter is usually argued on the basis that 'wod' refers to Woden (odin)
This is a really great collaboration, keep it up!
Oh awesome! These are two of my favorite youtubers! So cool to see you guys doing a video together.
My theory is that while Loki was fun narratively he doesn’t really have much going for daily importance. Thor is storms and rain (important for farming), Odin is wisdom and war (needed for a warrior society like the Norse), Freyr is fertility and sunlight, Freyja is love and magic, etc. What is Loki? If he is just the trickster, then he doesn’t really have much to do in the daily life of Norseman.
Norse gods aren't really gods of domains or elemental forces the way Greek ones are. Thor is not the God of Thunder in the way, say, Helios was the sun itself. He was a big strong guy with strong lightning associations, but Norse gods are really divine personalities rather than personifications, rulers, or sources of various natural elements.
Very true.Yet their are still clear reasons why you would pray and give offerings to. And even with divine personalities, Loki there’s not much reason to pray to. And it’s a little wierd, because other tricksters have reasons to be prayed to. Anansi was a trickster, but he was also the bringer of stories, and the god of rain. Hermes is similar to Loki, but he has other reasons to pray to. Loki should be titled the god of clusterfucks.
Loki was far more than 'just a trickster,' and the abscence of Medieval records of offerings to Loki might be because such rituals were conducted in more domestic settings, like offerings to Vættir.
@@anzus762 Overly Sarcastic's theory that he was connected to The Ash Lad, that Loki was a hearth spirit or deity, similar to Robin Goodfellow and Hestia. Its an interesting theory, but I do question its validity, as the meidval text, including The Prose Edda, does seem to paint Loki as a christ figure. Therefore, context is hard here.
And thats ok, especially with how fluid Loki is in the myths already. I am a norse pagan, and I pray to Loki as liberty god. Hes both Jotunn and Aesir, he's order in chaos. The perfect indiuval, the exact free spirit, one that soceity does both love and hate. So, I pray to him, especially with the world we live in right now, as a god who liberate us from both our worries and our struggles, helping us all. But thats my view, everyone views the gods differently of course.
What makes you think Thor had anything to do with rain? A few inscriptions we have invoking him are asking about much more mundane issues such as toothaches
I wasn't expecting this crossover!
Loki, so full of tricks that he deleted his internet history.
This is one of the best Religion for Breakfast episodes. Thanks for making it.
Your video explaining Loki to the masses is filled with such glorious purpose.
One of the greatest cross-over of comic-book history: Religion for Breakfast and Dr. Jackson Crawford!
Okay. I have to put this here because i actually work with Loki and I have to say that he can be a very kind, and selfless god, when I was broken, feeling trapped, i offered to him and asked for change (which he is the god of change) it came swiftly, not without hardship, but i am happier now than i was at this time a year ago. It’s the hard times that make us grow stronger, and makes us appreciate the good things in our lives. For all of the bad things that he’s done, he’s also done things for the greater good, its a good analogy for life itself
It feels like I've been waiting for ever for a new video
Great stuff! Love the down to earth comparisons. Keep up the good work!
Please do more mythology!!! I'd still love for you to do a video on the criticisms carl jung or joseph campbell recieve from using comparative mythology. Same with Jordan Peterson. I'd love a video on all those reductionist takes...I think it would be very educational
Not so sure about Joseph Campbell or Jordan Peterson but Carl Jung's students James Hillman and Robert A. Johnson criticised him while building on his ideas in their own books. Hillman's books "The Myth of Analysis" and "Re-Visioning Psychology" contain valuable criticism of Jung's appropriation of mythologies, though the latter book can get too "new agey" for many readers.
Johnson, on the other hand, just points out that Jung's archetypes are only that good a match for Western mythologies. A good example is the book "He", where Johnson notices that while the anima/animus dynamic perfectly matches gender roles in mediaeval European poetry similar dynamics only appear in East Asian countries' literary traditions after they begin to modernise in the image of the West.
Tbh I think the channel is fine as it is focusing on actual religions and their history. Speculations by psychologists and philosophers are a whole different topic.
@@pansepot1490 It's not if their methodology contradicts Religious studies/history. The point is to focus on "actual religions and their hostory"
@@Tsotha I'm genuinely curious if archetypes hold much weight with religious studies experts. A big part of what Andrew says is, "you learn more from the differences than similarities" which is a particularist view. And seems to be more scientific than comparative mythology. Which is why I'd love to hear what Andrew has to say about the matter
@@christopherp.8868 I guess it is no coincidence that Hillman quickly ended up thinking and writing more like a modern occultist in the vein of Alejandro Jodorowsky or G. I. Gurdjieff than like a typical academic scholar of comparative religion?
I could see that bellows stone with the image of Loki carved into it as either strictly decorative or possibly a good luck /protective object against making mistakes or being injured. Really enjoyed the video, you two are both a couple of my favorite channels for historical/literary/scholarly sources on all things ancient text. Now I am off to watch the first episode of Loki 😁
I believe some scholars speculate that Loki was at one point a fire god. In that context the bellows stone kinda makes sense.
@@lexibemis390 there is a story about Loki trying to prevent a dwarf who is operating a bellows while another dwarf fashions among other things, Thor's Hammer, from keeping up a steady beat. He is deliberately trying to sabotage the smelting process by turning into a fly & biting the dwarf causing him to stop. Most of the sources I know of don't associate Loki as a Fire God or think of him that way but it's possible older myths that are now lost did. Anyway, that specific story is what made me think this carving might be decorative or some sort of good luck talisman. They don't want the likes of Loki messing up their blacksmithing or it's simply a reference to a humorous story where Loki got his mouth sewn shut.
@@lexibemis390 I believe Jackson has a video about this and it's a confusion with another figure Logi who is a Jotun of fire. And things like DnD rolled with that idea for Loki. But Loki and Logi are completely different figures.
What a cool collab! I watch Dr. Crawford's vids too, so it was a nice surprise :)
YES! The collaboration I never even knew I wanted!
I'm Icelandic and norse....and Jackson is the most accurate person I have listened to about Norse mythology (my family history)
And I could listen to him speaking old Norse languages forever. No idea what he’s saying, but it doesn’t matter! 💕🐝
@@amazinggrace5692 I do understand my language and he is one of very few non Icelandic that can speak correctly, accent yes but not that thick so it's well understood.
Are Jötunn's essentially the equivalent of the Titans in Greek mythology?
Good question. Certainly there’s quite a few parallels between Greek and Norse mythology.
In the creation myth, the first creature was a giant that birthed all other giants. Then came the gods (Aesir) and slayed the first giant and in his blood most giants drowned.
So yeah, kinda.
Also, they created the earth out of the corpse of the giant. Norse mythology is really metal.
@@Doktor_Jones Oh, you skipped the cow in the creation story. But that's one of those things you've just gotta love about the norse mythology, extremely metal, yes, let's slay a giant, flood the void with his blood and make the world out of his corpse. Also, 1 page earlier, the gods get licked into existence by a cow. So, this over-exaggerations get "balanced" with embarassments, foolery and extremly un-metal stuff. My favorite mythological being has always been and probably will be Ratatoskr. What's the reason for ragnarok? Well, Loki overdid it with his antics. Yeah but why do good and evil are even in conflict to begin with? Easy, a squirrel. And it even makes perfect sense!
@@krotenschemel8558 the secret reason dogs hate squirrels? They know at least one will help usher in the world's destruction
I never thought of it that way, but that's pretty close! There are probably more similarities than differences.
For example, some Jotunn were worshipped by humans as gods, but that's not the case for any of the Titans.
Yes! Love Dr. Crawford
Really awesome video Andrew!
Interestingly enough, Loki is referred to as Laufeyson in the new series.
Yeah i noticed that. Though Laufey in the Marvel universe is the father.
Thor is called Odinson as a gloss on a Scandinavian surname. So Laufeyson is to show his difference. Marvel is fun, but it isn’t deep.
Laufeyson is kinda really his surname. It's like kind of one of his titles The Son of Laufey.
Man Crawford been getting all these features lately. Started watching him years ago to learn about the ancient norse language lol
He has done other collaps as well? please do tell me
@@Ossian-dr1vr Yes! Crawford recently did a video with the youtuber Simon Roper on old english and ancient norse! Good watch
Gripped from beginning to end.
Subscribed.
I love your work this one was great
I had to rewind the video,I totally zoned out humming "Hall of the mountain king".
There's an absence of evidence? Clearly, that absence had a ceremonial function.
I mean, a trickster god doesn't seem that much reliable to pray to XD
@@gedeonnunes5626 that's not really the point, there's close to no evidence of any cult for the norse gods. Christianity was very thorough with their "conversion" of germanic cultures, in that they didn't leave many traces of what these cultures once were.
@@gedeonnunes5626 There have been literal gods of suffering and pain that people prayed to: You pray to those gods so they don't become angry and focus on you. Or you pray to them to stop and advert their gaze.
@@Tacklepig Rather what was attempted in the Americas with less success.
@@Sienisota Or to pay close attention to someone else, for justice or vengeance or plain dislike.
Thank you for this, it was really cool to hear something new about the Norse gods.
DUDE! Dr. Crawford!? Been a fan of his channel since last year!
yooooo, my religion professor talking bout MCU comics bro, LETS GO!!!
The bellows stone depicting Loki makes complete sense, since he was associated with fire.
He is not associated with fire. That is logi
Loki is not associated with fire.
Thanks for the video 🍵
Both of you, beautiful video 👏
One of the biggest differences must be how they make the "family relations"
In myth, Odin and Loki are blood brothers and in Marvel Odin did a steal and forcefully adopted Loki
In myth, Odin has a few sons, in Marvel, he has 2,one of which he stole
In myth, Loki has multiple children, some he fathered, some he mothered, in Marvel he isn't shown to be a father nor a mother
In myth, Hel and Fenrir are his children, but in Marvel, Hel is Hela and is his stepsister and Fenrir is just a giant wolf
Also, Freja is NOT Loki's mother, according to myth he is her brother though his blood brotherhood with Odin
Marvel Loki is also both more destructive and less destructive than in the myths. Taking over the Earth? That's boring, he is going to help do that later. Murdering a dude because you think it's fun that his mother is going to be upset? Yes, I'll do that, I'll even have his brother do it!
That's kind of how myth Loki seems to work
Lokasenna... the image that immediatly jumps to mind is:
"Epic Rap Battles of Myth-Story ! Loki! ... versus ...... everyone! Begin!"
Loki: "Yo, Aesir, Yo, Asyniur and and all the others who consider themself oh so holly. 'xcept on yonder bench mundi Bragi can sit himself's hole-y"
Thanks for having me Andrew great time talking!
This was super interesting! Thank you!
I would pay good money to see someone perform half of the stuff that the mythological Loki does, like the goat stuff.
5:45 LOL His expression is priceless, trying to hold back the smile when saying relating birthing a half-corpse woman.
He seems to have a barely suppressed wry sense of humour.
She was probably "half and half" to relate that her body looked ALMOST dead, but not quite. Not that she was a chimera of living and dead like some mermaid but death instead of fish.
Absolutely love your content! I don’t feel like I’m wasting brain cells watching TH-cam in my free time lol. You challenge my thinking, and I appreciate it
ReligionForBreakfast featuring JacksonCrawford is the greatest crossover event of all time!
Loki seems to be somewhat similar to Prometheus in terms of contempt from the Gods, but to Shiva in purpose.
Something I always wonder if these were real people/families. Like if the mythical is mostly descriptions, lies, and way to prop up their family while putting down others. But the "gods" were actually people and maybe some of the events is loosely based on real events. This being some of the events like kidnappings and stuff happened to multiple families and things were heavily changed for the story.
Many cultures had a habit of deifying their heroes, rulers, teachers. Or "old ones" (previous land residents) they replaced, especially if unknown but for discovered ruins in livable territory.
You're the only TH-camr who could make me watch a video about Marvel movies.
I love it how you guys present the origins of Loki from a religious and cultural standpoint. Just the other days, I saw a video from Otherwords explaining the origins of Loki from a etymological standpoint.
I found the book "Norse Mythology" by Neil Gaiman both entertaining and educational. Highly recommend it.
I'm a huge mythology nerd. This really made my day. Now i can use this to see if Loki in Record of Ragnarok manga is accurate
The crossover I never expected!!
You’re the best man, seriously.
16:07 "but among all these places named for gods, there's not a single one of them named for Loki"
That is a common misconception. There is at least one in the Faroe Islands called Lokkafelli (Loki’s Fell). It is noteworthy that the Faroe Islands are also the country of origin for the folk tale Lokka táttur (or “Loki’s Tale”), which was first recorded in the late 18th century. Loki stars as the hero of this story, who is the only one who is clever enough to rescue a farmer’s son from a giant when Óðinn, Hönir, and Loki are all petitioned to help him. Because of the lateness and obscurity of this poem it seems to have been largely ignored or overlooked, but it seems uncharacteristic that a mythological figure who was traditionally reviled in Scandinavia would possess a story that casts them as an clever hero. That Loki has a landmark in the Faroe Islands named after him could also demonstrate that Loki received some degree of affection from this populace in particular.
The most famous landmark from Scandinavia that bears Loki’s name is Sirius, the “Dog Star”, known in Scandinavia as Lokabrenna (“Loki’s Torch”). It appears on the horizon during the hottest days of summer (between early July and early September in the Northern Hemisphere) and the bright star’s close proximity to the sun at dawn was believed to be responsible for the heat. It is thus appropriate that this star was regarded to be the “torch” of the fiery Loki.
Ull is nordic for wool. That's the original word that became wool in English. A place named Ull something likely has farms or terrain beneficial to wool production.
So you’re saying those name places probably have nothing to do with a god? Maybe Ull was a god of wool production and wool got named after him, same as cereals are named after the goddess Ceres.
I present you with the most obvious example of Ullensaker municipality in Norway. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ullensaker
The name derives from the old Ullinshof, which roughly translates into Ullr's Temple. There's also at least one well known Norse burial mound Rakni's Mound and other old Norse sites in neighbouring municipalities.
Then again, it's also exceptional farm land...
Wow!!! I can totally relate to what this guy is saying.
Thankyou for sharing.
Dr. Crawford on Religion for Breakfast? I can die happy now...
0:42 I thought he was going to say "Not the loki of comic book lore but the _real_ Loki"
I believe that the d with a cross character is supposed to be pronounced as “th”
Yes, the ð is pronounced like the "th" in the english word "father". The Þ/þ on the other hand is pronounced like the "th" at the end of the english word "tooth"
The thing to remember about Snorri's Edda is that it's actually a poetry manual, dealing with verse meters, synonym and metaphoric terms needed to name things given the very rigid skaldic poetry form, and basics of mythology so that skalds remember where the references are from.
Love this one Yaay!👏🏽💥💕
Very interesting.
So, if _giant_ is a mistranslation, I wonder how accurate a translation dwarf is.
Dwarf is pretty literal, it's got the same germanic root word, though it's questionable whether these dwarves were actually small people, height is not specified there.
Giant is also only somewhat of a mistranslation. It's complicated, because a lot of Jötun ended up evolving into giants of fairytales and folklore later down the line. You could say the mistranslation is a self-fulfilling prophecy? It's hard to explain.
It should also be noted that both dwarves and "giants" usually were shapeshifters anyways, so they could be big or small if they wanted to.
Stories about dwarfs are usually short stories.
@@Phoenixash-delfuego,
Short stories. And, down to earth too.
@@Tacklepig thats funny
This crossover was a suprise to be sure. but a welcome one.
Hello there!
@@GameTimeWhy general kenobi
My two favorite TH-camrs in one video...☺
Good call making this video; the timings perfect and it was informative and entertaining.
I know one thing that's named after Loki - spiders. At least in some old versions of Swedish dialects they're called "locke".
If you engage Lord of the Rings/middle earth lore TH-cam, this video discussion uncovers, I would wager, Tolkien’s inspiration for Melkor/Morgoth’s shape-changing in the Silmarillion. Is that how Loki’s adversarial role is mentioned?
And the World Trees parallels...also would the Norse giants be somewhat based on or preceded by biblical giants like the apocryphal Nephilim? Norse mythology, one of the most cyclical universes, with Ragnarok, is probably why Marvel is drawn to it, being arguably cyclical and recyclable itself.
The buddy cop aspect is kind of like Thor calling his fun uncle to help him lol
His power of persuasion are vast almost like he can use his voice to charm people
So this is Comparative Religion Extended Universe?
We have to keep in mind, however, that the eddas were the "Icelandic" part of a whole people with their own languages, identities and maybe variations on religion. It might not be as easy as the Greeks to "center" a cult, they wouldn't have the same interaction between them, there are distinguished things regarding their religion, for example, the Swedish usually cremated their dead, while Norway and Danes didn't. It's unfortunately, but we know only a tiny piece of a enormous iceberg. Other places might had a different view on Loki, or maybe none at all. He may be more of a folk tale than an actual god. Sure there were far more gods than we know today.
Excellent video, by the way!
Not only that, but they also were mostly written down as an afterthought.
This was after christianity had taken over and a lot of that culture was already destroyed, mostly by christianity in the process of forced conversion. Keep in mind, this culture and mythology was shared not only in scandinavia, but also among a lot of germanic tribes, and we have close to no first hand accounts from that culture at all - the only documents we have were written by christians later on, or accounts from the outside.
The Eddas are likely only very small fragments of a vast body of tales and myths that used to exist at some point, and the majority of that is forever lost, mostly due to realigious zealotry.
Crossover episode for my favorite two historical TH-cam scholars!