Students can access most of these books through their libraries access and if they cannot there are ways to access them without enriching the leeches of academic publishing. I will unsub if you promote these sorts of businesses again, especially to students.
I always thought of Confucianism as a philosophy within indigenous Chinese religious traditions, similar to Stoicism or Neoplatonism in the Mediterranean.
I was going to comment the same thing, calling confucianism a religion is the same as calling any western school of philosophy a religion, as you've said.
@@QuiteWellAdjusted I would say that they are religions, as I would for Confucianism, but that they fit in as an understanding of Greco-Roman religion through a specific philosophy.
This is all strange to me because growing up, there seemed to be no separation between Confucianism, Buddhism, or Daoism. In my household and in all the media we consume, it seemed like everyone just believed (or entertained the notion of) an amalgam of all three. Even though there were few specifically Buddhist idols in my house, one of the Daoist goddesses (using feminine pronouns because Guan Yin' seems to identify as female) is called Buddhist, and my family seems to call themselves Buddhist despite the worship of ancestors and other explicitly Daoist deities.
I think that is the common experience amongst amongst the general population. All-or-Nothing sectarianism isn't really built into the beliefs as it is in Abrahamic religions. Yet even amongst those beliefs for instance, from an alien viewpoint, one could easily see an american as holding three religions: Christianity, Civil Patriotic Ritualism & secular values, and folk beliefs in things such as cryptids, aliens and an amalgamation of conspiratorial and New Age viewpoints.
@@Marbo12f As an American I definitely have the latter two, not Christian though. Religion comes in quite a few strange and surreal forms when viewed through an outsiders lens
Even the Chinese state struggles to separate religious traditions in China. While folk practices are described as superstitious and not recognised by the government, Buddhism and Daoism are valid. In order to receive official status, some folk temples like Heilongdawang have petitioned local authorities into classifying them as Daoist shrines so they can operate more easily.
In Indonesia, it is called as Tridharma or Sam Kauw or San Jiao. Some Indonesian chinese (other the ones who have been Muslim or Christian) do practice three religion at once but others do practice only one (Buddhist only or Confucianism only).
The more scholarly aesthetic of your videos is quite refreshing - it's a rarity on TH-cam to see an introduction that actually lays down relevant context instead of being a melange of sales pitch and in-jokes
The Western Christian-centric ideas of what is and is not religion don't really apply to Eastern spiritual practices, or other non-Monotheistic cultures. Confucianism incorporates practices we would consider religious alongside practices we would consider secular and sees little distinction between the two.
As a Hindu from India, I definitely agree with you on that statement, and I can say that's more true for Hinduism than any other religion. In Hinduism,philosophy,science, religion,spirituality,music,arts,drama, they are all linked.The idea of what is religious and what is secular did not exist in any culture outside Christian Europe. These are categories developed by Western scholars but unfortunately most of the study on world history is done by them so things are according to their perspective.
@@debilista But Confucianism doesn't just _seem_ to do those things, it does incorporate practices considered to be religious in Western culture. Ancestor veneration and various other rites involving spirits and deities are very much part of Confucian practices. There isn't a difference between the secular and the sacred in Confucianism. That division between the two is entirely a Western concept.
Merely "including practices we would consider secular" doesn't mean sth is not a religion. Also the concept of religion itself comes from the West, that's not one idea of religion, that's what religion means: myths, rules and common practices.
People sometimes poke fun at the Romans for pretending that the pantheons of every group they ran into were basically same as the Hellenistic pantheon, but Christian missionaries don't seem to be any better here
it all comes from the same people. Catholics are and were always the one deeming other´s believes as idolatry without really noticing the details. happened with greco-latin culture, happened again with far east believes
@@cloudsofsunset7323 I mean further, Catholics are literally centered in the old Roman empire and absorbed tons of their tendencies. I'd argue that Catholicism is just the continuation on the Roman Empire through subtler means.
I don't think the romans were that far off, most folks had a 'god of x' in their pantheons with a rather familar set of natural powers (sky, sea, mountains, forests) and human activilites (love, war, knowlege, humor, travel, domesticity) being univeral enough to be a reasonably understood to be analogs. And the Romans were making these comparisons on purpose for assimilation/accomadational reasons, and they werent the only ones who tried this strategy either.
@@kennethferland5579 Generally speaking people who spoke Indo-European languages tended to have pagan pantheons in which the main gods are the same. You can even trace the changes of their names back to their Proto-Indo-European origin through systematic rules of sound changes established with everyday speech. There are a few outliers though such as Thor not Odin would be expected to head the Norse pantheon as he has the right name and job (dude who uses lightning as a weapon), but what do you Thor was far more popular with the people than Odin.
As a Southeast Asian Chinese, Confucianism seems to be very much part of the overall culture, rather than seen exclusively as a religion. On the note of exclusivity, I think I have seen all three major Chinese religions and folk religions in the same temple like the Tua Pek Kong Temple in Sitiawan, Malaysia. Personally I think Chinese classics (e.g. Journey to the West where both Taoist and Buddhist deities exist together) played a huge role in normalising this sort of non-exclusivity. Interestingly, I never knew Tua Pek Kong is our own Southeast Asian extension of the Chinese Folk Religion, who is not part of the "original" mythology. And that such mix-religion SEA Chinese temples are not exactly uncommon. Huh.
Yeah as a Malaysian Chinese whose family is Christian, I was taught Confucian values at home and in school without realising it's actually part of Confucianism and not just manners or Chinese culture. There's probably not much distinction between anyway. Also wow I had no idea that Tua Pek Kong was SEAsian
Lol as a Chinese, I never thought of confucianism as a religion. It is called 儒学 which is more like an study on how to be a decent human being and fit in society role at that time. Literally there is no god mentioned at all.
@@mongoose1628 Did you actually watch the video? Because it is literally the opposite of what you are saying. It is a religion only if you are looking at it from a eurocentric perspective, not the other way round.
Speaking of ancestor worship… I consider it more of a way of comfort to the living. When our family members are dead, we don’t want them to leave forever, so are believing their deaths as the other way of living. Setting up altars for them is just the way to show them our love and honoring. Because they are not leaving us, we can still offer them food and talk about what we encounter in lives like always, and believe that when we pray to them, our ancestors will always help us and protect us like when they are still living. So, the idea of ancestor is to let them be remembered and stay existing, unlike what when you are worshipping a god.
So, yeah, in most cases nowadays, when someone says they are a Confucian, it’s more of describing someone as a practitioner of the teaching, not of the religion based on the philosophy. Like someone saying they are a Hedonist. Confucianism is in most cases seen as an approach of life and a way of living. So even though there are lots of practitioner of Confucianism, there are relatively few consider themselves involve religiously. 儒学（Confucianism as in the Hundred Schools of Thoughts in Philosophy) and 儒教 (Confucianism as a religion) are two different things. This might be the reason why we have so much debates on the topic. There should be terms to distinguish the two, like what they do in Religious Taoism and Philosophical Taoism.
In Chinese culture and traditions, at least for my family and relatives in China, HK, TW and SG, Ancestor worship, Confucianism, Buddhism, and Daoism have always been mixed and worship as a whole. There is no separation in them unless one goes more in-depth into a particular sect of religion (e.g. my family in SG goes more into the Vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhism), hopefully, @ReligionForBreakfast can do a video series on Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana). Confucianism, especially in terms of filial piety, humanness and morality had been the backbone of upbringing among my family for ages.
Agree. As Chinese descent from Vietnam. We call our religion as Buddhist; but we observe ancestors worship, take Confucius concepts of filial and Daoism very seriously.
Indeed, the Church of the East - the Nestorian Dyophysites - who hated the decisions made at Chalcedon in 451 went eastwards, even to Korea and Japan without political support and encountered many religions of the East along the way. Bulding monasteries like the Daqin pagoda, which in Chinese meant the Roman Empire or "them from the West"
although the idea that it was built by early Dyophysite missionaries has been contested, but there is no doubt they had a presence in China nontheless.
@@maxion5109, I'm afraid you made a slight error in your statement. The so-called Nestorians actually objected to the Council of Ephesus. It was their opponents, the so-called Monophysites, who objected to the Council of Chalcedon. I say "so-called" because there are people in both groups who object to those designations.
@@michaelhealy9449 Yes and no. They also objected to the Council of Chalcedon. The Council of Ephesus in 431 was a real flashpoint for them but it was only the beginning. It vindicated the issue of "Theotokos" which Nestorius had challenged and the Council ruined his career for good, but the brief mention of them being called merely non-Ephesine in Wikipedia is misleading. (If people happen to stumble over that sentence.) They didn't become harmoniously Chalcedonian in the 544 synod. Chalcedon 451 proved to be the most divisive of them all. Ultimately it was a compromise designed to find a middle way and thus it left two parties in bitter disagreement with the outcome. Even though the formula largely followed Nestorius's viewpoints on the "two natures" "dyo physis" of Christ, it condemned him once more, burned his writings and children bearing his name were rebaptized. On one side, as you mentioned, are the "monophysites" "one nature" theologians (correct term is Miaphysite) and "mono" should be avoided, and on the other we have the "two nature" party and they felt that Nestorius had been treated with outrageous injustice. These protestors were labelled "nestorians", and like the "monophysite" label, is likewise a sneer-label designed to denigrate. A better term is Dyophysites or Theodoerans actually since Theodore of Mopsuestia is really the founding father of their theological stance whereas Nestorius is more of an exponent of said stance. In the aftermath of Chalcedon they developed a distinct theology from the Chalcedonian churches with a more robust adherence to the dyo-physis of Christ. There was an attempt to ratify the Council of Chalcedon in 544 in a local council to the East but that agreement didn't last and the final distinction was made in 612. As far as I am aware. But all in all, the Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East (official name) are indeed non-Chalcedonians as are the Miaphysites of the Oriental Orthodox Churches. People don't often realize how much Chalcedon was a disaster in uniting the Imperial Church.
It's not so unusual for anyone familiar with pre-Christian religion in Western Europe. You could be a Stoic with particular reverence to Minerva who simultaneously participates actively in the Imperial Cult.
Europe is pretty unique with such distinctions. Its also quite a dilemma because while the distinction between religion, philosophy, and culture breaks down outside of Europe, there isn't another general frame of analysis that works either, so we kinda continue to use it.
I just discovered your channel and I like it. You deal with a sensitive topic in an even handed, respectful and objective manner. Most other TH-camrs dealing with similiar topics make an unfunny snarky "joke" every two minutes or inject their ideological biases. You don't, that's good. You present everything in an understandable way for average people without dumbing things down. You're an intellectual without being grating and condescending like many intellectuals are. Keep up the good work.
Fascinating video. The protestant scholar uttering a Christian prayer at a Confucian altar shocked me, I must admit. It reminded me of how the ancient Greeks would interpret the gods of the nations around them as being like their own. Confucianism is difficult for many of us westerners to understand because it's not a _philosophy_ in the same sense as we've formulated philosophies to be for more than 2,000 years; but it's also not a _religion_ per se, since there is no focus on the supernatural existence of a god or gods, no exhortation to live righteously for the purpose of being blessed by said god(s), and no mythology. And so if we decide to expand the definition of religion to include “philosophies,” wouldn't that make Stoicism, Epicureanism, Neoplatonism, and etc into religions? Again, fascinating stuff.
Confucius is very much at the center or at the foundation of the Chinese civilization, and the Chinese civilization is, of course, based on the Chinese language and its various terms, idioms, etc., which are uniquely Chinese. When Westerners are trying to understand Confucius, they always embark on this question whether he's a religious man, or a philosopher, or an agnostic but the problem is that these are all western terms that do not exactly fit the fundamentally more pragmatic Chinese way of thinking about life, and the various "ways", "paths" (Dao) to go through life.
If American Culture is a religion, as previously discussed on this channel, then Confucianism has more than enough qualifications of being called a religion.
I've always found it interesting that 'cult' and 'culture' both seem to me to be from the Latin 'cultus', if true culture (to me a way of life) is religion. Like the stoics a philosophy that believed everything was part of God and that's why pain and pleasure was not important because of the pleasure or pain in other things, parts of God.
America has many overlapping sects, such as the cult of Elvis. Worshippers may have a shrine to him at home, but that does not stop them from also belonging to a church and being fervent birthers, Trumpists, etc. Many people "pass through" some of these cults, e.g. they may be a Goth for a few years.
By the norms of the 'West' aka Abrahamic religion, it would be considered philosophy not religion. But in the East their is not the sharp distinction between religion and philosophy. Western religions do have a philosphy assosiated with them, but we are effectivly cognativly blind to this because of the western views of religion being 'revealed' by phrophets rather then philosophised by a philosopher.
As a chinese I have to say, thank you for your describing, it's not bad at all! But I feel it's not how chinese people understand confucianism. I live in Kham and here we have so many different cultures, it's easy to comparing their differences, and we feel the confucianism is not at all like the occidental view. In the confucianism's world, the religious organization is familly, the ancestors and personal gods are same things, the tradition are the dogmas, the priest or religious leader is always the eldest son, a belief about gouvernment's power, and after all, they accept yi-king as the holy book, but not as bible in western world. In my view, the confucianism is more closed to judaism, which includes folkloric tradition and religious belief, and we also have the belief of saint king, like the messiah of judaism.
Chinese folk religion is a syncretic mixture of Confucianism, Chinese Buddhism and Taoism with ancestral worship and other traditional elements. This is the mainstream religious tradition of the Chinese people, especially among oversea Chinese diaspora communities. Taoism is consider the only organised religion that was originated from China and evolved from ancient Chinese Shamanism, quite similar to Shintoism from Japan and Sinism from Korea. The most beautiful part about these three spiritual traditions is that there is never any religious war fought in their name throughout the history of China.
It is quite interesting you point out there is no religious war between these three traditions. You are right that the religion leaders did not lead any religious war, however, the ideological wars between these different religions were fought at the court during different dynasties. There were several kings and emperors who imposed strict rules or even bans on different religions, especially Buddhism.
There were ideological competitions among the three religious traditions and several emperors did imposed heavy restrictions and penalties towards a particular religion, like Tang Wu Zong's ruling on Buddhism. However, there is never a full scale religious war among the three religious traditions in China's history.
Really good video, Confucianism is interesting as a world-religion. The Confucian literati, especially Zhu Xi wrote much on the spiritual tradition, hierarchy of spirits and theology/metaphysics on Confucianism. He also wanted to get rid of Buddhism and Daoism, which he viewed as worshiping demons in many cases, this shows that Confucianism may have some form of dogmatic beliefs. However here Zhu Xi held to the belief of Shang-Zhou tradition, Heaven Worship, which is why he also went around studying the belief and practices of minority groups in China (Zhu Xi was even used extensively by Taiping Rebels). To not forget about Japanese Confucianism who saw no separation between Shinto and Confucianism, Shinto as a term being itself taken from the Book of Rites. Studying Zhu Xi you will find much in common with shinto beliefs, not without reason since Confucianism would influence Shinto by giving it a form of theology which would allow it to become independent of Buddhism. These Confucians also saw a strict distinction between the Way of Heaven/Shangdi vs that of hetrodoxical teachings of Daoism and Buddhism. Interestingly however it is hard to define if Confucianism has a theological doctrine - that is you can use Confucian metaphysics and theology yet still conform to Islamic and Christian dogma. Liu Chih being an example of a Muslim Confucian who did this. This is interesting in regard to plural practice of religions, since by definition it is impossible to do so within Islam and Christianity, yet there are several people who may define themselves as Christian or Muslim Confucians. As such Confucianism as a tradition may be quite helpful in regard to dialogue between different religions.
I thoroughly enjoyed the video. However there's an important point which you missed. In 1939 his holiness Pope pius xii released a new decree known as Plane Compertum which recognised the Chinese rites of venerating confucius and ancestors as a cultural practice of filial piety which is civil in nature and an honourable way of esteeming one's relatives rather than superstition. It effectively recognised it as a philosophy compatible with Catholicism rather than a separate religion.
@@antonykasper8743 I'm the only Jimmy Akin I know personally! :-) And I'm glad you made the point. I was going to make it myself until I saw you'd already done so. Great job!
"China is a huge market, we need to convert them." But they have this weird thing that they worship their ancestor and it is entrenched." "Say it is not really worship, just veneration so it does not violate our doctrine. Now go and convert them. God and the church will be most pleased with a couple hundred of million new Chinese believers." "As you command, your holiness."
that "decree" is coming from the catholic perspective, however. it only says this in order to better mix/destroy our roots in China, since Confucianism was, is, and shall be Religious at the outset. In our Scripture, we have verses warning against outer syncretism.
Hey, this video rules! The brief mention of the Jesuits' attempt to bring Christianity to Japan reminded me that the Kakure Kirishitans (Japan's "hidden Christians") might make for an interesting topic for a future video: there are parallels to the Jesuits taking on the trappings of Buddhism and then Confucianism to make it easier for them to bring Christianity to China in that the Kakure Kirishitans often disguised their religious practices as Buddhist rituals. Anyway, I really enjoy your videos, keep on making that good content!
Hidden religions occurred in many places in history. After the expulsion of the Jews from mediaeval England, some of the families who remained had to hide their religious practices, and later under Protestant hegemony many Catholic families had to hide what they were doing at home while also attending Church of England services as required by law. After the Reconquista Spanish Jews and Muslims had to leave or convert, but some of the converts secretly continued their old religions: many of those emigrated but remained hidden. African slaves in the US also hid their cultural and religious practices from their white masters.
Andrew, could you do a do a video / series on the role of acclimation to local cultures in regards to evangelization efforts? How does the prosceltyzing community decide to make value judgements about what is imperative to keep as dogmatic theology; what is more tertiary; and what local religious practices can be co-opted?
Despite its flaws, I really heavily prefer the Legge translation of the Confucian Analects. It’s so much more charming and powerfully-worded than the modern one.
This is how a hero becomes a god. Fascinating to see it in action. Mad respect to the Parliament of the Worlds' Religions. They have been meeting in peace for well over 100 years.
Nice to see that Perlego is sponsoring you, have been using their service for a while and it’s pretty neat. Just wish their eBooks for be more suitable for citing 🙃
Confucianism honestly sounds really attractive. Ancestor worship is something many can relate to (especially me as an African) and the lack of gods, divinity etc is awesome for cultivating morality without anchoring to a supremacy war over the supreme beings.
Good video. As someone with about three decades of life in Japan, and as someone who is very interested in east Asian culture, it seems to me that Confucianism is more of a philosophy of just government than a religion. Nevertheless, I recognize that there are many aspects of Confucianism that make it more like a religion than a philosophy. Your video very nicely brought out these different facets.
You and UsefulCharts should team up to make a massive Venn Diagram comparing and contrasting all of the major world religions by rituals, beliefs, practices, etc.
As a Chinese who has read most of the Confucian core texts carefully (The Four Books and Five Classics in particular, and Zhu Xi’s commentaries), I do think that it functionally works no different from a religion (it has a set of holy texts/scripture, a scholastic tradition of commentary and philology surrounding that scripture, a pantheon of secular saints and sages to be worshipped, and an absolutely obnoxious moral self-confidence in its own righteousness and exclusive access to truth rivaling that of Christianity), despite the fact that the actual content and teachings of Confucianism are essentially secular and somewhat anti-religious in nature (“Respect the Gods and maintain a distance from them” the Master said, “How can one not serve the other humans around him first before serving the Gods?”). I think this points to a limitation in the Western concept of theistic religion itself, rather than something wrong with Confucianism. During the Song, Yuan, Ming and Qing dynasties (from 960 all the way to 1912 continually), Confucianism also had its own highly hierarchical army of priests (the scholar-bureaucrats) who busied themselves with interpreting the texts and teaching them to the masses. If this is not a religion I don’t know what is.
I’m left scratching my head at the footage of the One Pillar Pagoda when you were talking about Confucianism, since it’s a Buddhist temple to Avalokitesvara/Quan Âm
I think I also watched a documentary once where the temple headmaster (?) said something along the lines of "Confucius is the God of Culture". And I would guess that it is kind of like in Japan where Shinto is more culture than a systematic religion. So people act on it and so on but wouldn't call themselves "Confucianist". A lot of traditions and traditional values come from Confucius, yet no-one seems to call themselves "Confucianist" in any way.
I adore you and your videos and am working my way through them all. My area of expertise is China. Just a small note but one that Sinologists will notice. There is no short "a" sound in Chinese. Tang, Han, Shang, Yang are all pronounced with an "ah" sound as in altar rather than as in "hand."
@@anyoneatall3488 I think all his videos are very good but they are intended most often as very introductory, as he himself would say. Thus, one has to delve deeper if you want to know more. Let's Talk Religion sometimes does longer in-depth talks, but I don't think he has done anything on Chinese thought. He is most interested apparently on Muslim history and religion.
I'd consider Confucianism more of a philosophy or ideology with a connection to religion, like how conservatism in America is heavily tied to evangelicalism.
This was so interesting! I’ve been to many of the places in China you mention here and I gained a much better appreciation for them through this history. Thanks!
I think looking at Confucian practice in Korea might be worth a look, though it seems to have followed a similar path to the Imperial State Religion you reference here. The closest to a Confucian religion I have seen is the Donghak movement that eventually became modern Cheondogyo and its splinter groups. However, they all feature major influences from Daoism and Korean Shindo (aka Muism)
yes, religious studies applies the scientific method to their study of religion. It's very similar to anthropology and they often overlap in their studies. The scientific study of religion is murky though and does have a foundation in academic studies over scientific studies.
This is just s personal note, but I never knew my father's father, because he died when my dad was just five years old. I asked dad once whether he remembered the sound of his dad's voice, and he told me no: too long ago, for one thing, but, for another, his dad was always on the road for business and hardly ever home.
That’s what angers me about labeling ancestor worship as “idolatry”, you’re basically trying to keep the memories of your past relatives alive for as long as possible, wondering what they would do in your shoes when it comes to life’s problems and revering their wisdom. We do that in the West (Los Dias De Los Muertos is a famous example) along with preserving journals, photos and other keepsakes and even doing genealogical work. It boggles my mind that some rituals and rights are just slapped with the label of “worship/idolatry” and therefore “bad”
@@rachel_sj Well, they paid the price for it, take a look at Emperor Kangxi's response to Pope Clement XI's ban on ancestor veneration: "Reading this proclamation, I have concluded that the Westerners are petty indeed. It is impossible to reason with them because they do not understand larger issues as we understand them in China. There is not a single Westerner versed in Chinese works, and their remarks are often incredible and ridiculous. To judge from this proclamation, their religion is no different from other small, bigoted sects of Buddhism or Taoism. I have never seen a document which contains so much nonsense. From now on, Westerners should not be allowed to preach in China, to avoid further trouble."
It's really strange that honoring the ancestors was seen as idolatry. Don't christians believe in honoring some of the christians of previous generations that came before them? Isn't that what the veneration of Saints is?
@@lovestarlightgiver2402 It would be more accurately described as ancestor veneration. Christianity has a tradition of venerating saints but not ancestors. It is understandable in a sense in that ancestor veneration rituals and the reasons behind them very much overlaps with Chinese folk religion. Though Catholicism did have a history of Christianizing pagan practices so I don't see why they didn't do that.
If you are still in Egypt doing studies, I would be interested in how the Egyptian Coptic's came up with a travel log of where Jesus traveled in Egypt while there as a child. Is it based on fact or is it a myth that just grew or is it maybe related to pilgrim culture? Thank you
As always, thanks for this video! While this topic is quite interesting, I think the question being asked here, “Is Confucianism a religion?”, doesn’t seem very important. No matter which side of the line you decide to put it one-which I think is ultimately arbitrary-it is at least on the fringe and demands a place in religious studies. But the point should be just to compare & contrast rather than to answer that question, which threatens to distract from the things to be learned here.
I never could think of Confucianism as a religion, but then what is it? Ideology? Discipline? It's own magisterium? Then this made me think:"what is Stoicism or Neoplatonism?" Philosophies yes, but that word is confusing in and of itself.
@@Duiker36 Discipline is shorthand for "way of life". Confucianism is far from a folkway, they tend to be simple; Confucius has been venerated by officialdom for thousands of years.
A divine father and mortal mother who birthed a great teacher...🧐 One of the eldest stories ever told with several veriations. From I learned from others and from my own research Confucius and his writings are more like a guide to teach your families and future generations on how to be better and productive human beings.
It’s impressive that some Christians had a positive opinion on Confucianism(knowing how they behave towards others religions) And that also would relate to why Christianity is a great religion in Korea.
Ancestral worship is a thing in Europe as well, arguably it's more common than organised religion in some countries, and yet we often don't notice it or consider "religious". Like, we literally get a day off on November 1st to pay a visit to the graves of our ancestors.
From Tsai Chih Chung's cartoon books on Chinese philosophy, I learned that there were many thought systems during warring states period, but it seems like only Confucianism got more popularized during recent time. It's interesting to know that Western religious groups are one of the major (maybe the biggest even?) driving forces behind that popularization.
@@johnkilmartin5101 I think so. Zhuangzi was among the ones who started Taoism/Daoism. It was probably not called Daoism when they first came up with it though.
It depends on our definition of "religion". For today's standards, after a long influence on western studies' from Christianity, we shaped our idea of religion. But religion was originally just the roman religion and similar phenomena recognized by roman culture. What we call religion today was considered by romans "immodica et prava superstitio" or "excessive and corrupted religious obsession". Confucianism would have been considered religion from roman point of view: they sacrificed to ancestors, they considered religion functional for social and political, they had traditional gods to respect, etc.
Glad you mentioned Matteo Ricci's work. He recognise Confucianism as God's unwritten law on gentles' heart, and say he came to complete Confucianism. As Confucious did say himself he desired to learth the true Dao. I think the Rites Dispute between Qing's emperor and the Pope was a shame that really killed the opportunity for the royal family in China to adopt Christianality. Followed by that the church was eastablished in Beijing was shut down.
I like Confucianism as an idea, then, because it's meant to bring families closer. I PREFER Daoism, if we're talking just about China's endemic religions/philosophies, but Confucianism does have an excellent value system that even the Catholic church couldn't find fault with, and they are a ludicrously hyper-critical sect.
LOL catholics are "hyper critical sect"? What about [insert every reformation sects] that broke off from Catholic church because they were critical of the Catholic church??
Is there any substantive similarity between the Mandate of Heaven and the Jewish Covenant? The idea that a moral failing among the ruling elite can rob them both of a supernatural blessing and political legitimacy reminds me a lot of Jeremiah’s condemnations of Israel.
Simple ans : nope Long ans : yes maybe it can If you are into religious study or kinda into comparative religion then you will see many scholars or those who study comparative religions will say the God of old testament and impersonal God of confucianism (lord tian) is the same God So it can be that same entity or same personality can rule over human efforts and give 'objective' or divine law But the main part is nope. The covenant and mandate of Heaven is not same or got some deeper similarities
I think Chinese Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism, and Chinese folk religion should be considered one large religion for simplicity called 'Chinese Syncretism'
I draw a distinction between religion and ideology, the former is considered with something beyond our word, the latter with something that can be construed on earth
But Confucianism is just one facet of the Dao. Along with Legalism, Daoism, Mohism and other philosophies born in the Zhou Dynasty… so the religion is called Zhouism ☯️ … the founder is the Duke of Zhou, the Deity is Tian 天and Confucius is the Moses or Muhammad of Zhouism. Confucius himself said he followed the Duke of Zhou. All the Zhou philosophies are aspects of the Dao that is China’s unique contribution to human history.
@@ReligionForBreakfast can you do a video on Hinduism please. And emphasize that Hindus don’t worship millions of gods, but many aspects of the ultimate reality known as Brahman. And can you talk about the different philosophical schools within Hinduism, not go into detail because the video will be too long. Just covering Hinduism like in your other videos
Confucius being converted into a god is pretty counterintuitive. For he believed what one does in their mortality matters more then what is to come in the afterlife. You make your point when your alive. He didn't completely denounce the dead though. Honoring family of the past is integral to the whole idea of social togetherness.
Although the word Tian 天 is generally translated as "Heaven", it's worth noting it's not Heaven in the Christian sense of the word. You could infact do an entire video just on the concept of the Ancient Chinese "Heaven".
Yes, but even the Christian concept of Heaven (or Paradise as we say in neo-latin languages countries) is based on the Greek-roman views of the Sky/Heaven as "Gods Realm" , that I think is pretty similar to the Chinese concept. The English word "Heaven" as various meaning, depending on the context. In language as Italian we use the word "Cielo" (Sky, with the capitalist letter) to refer at a generic "God(s) Realm in the Sky" and "Paradiso" for the Christian Heaven or pleasure places in afterlife. 😊
For me at least, religions have to have at least this 3 things. 1. Spiritualism. 2. Ethics. 3. Rituals. Therefore, following this criteria, Confucianism can be categorized as a religion. Feel free to disagree.
I have read the Anelects by Confucianism. I know the Chung Zhu highly opposed Confucianism. In the Analects by Confucius, he addresses about his philosophy of hierarchy, order and certain values within the hierarchy and order. For some reason Chung Zhu opposed Confucius. I need to get more books on Confucuis and Chung Zhu. I have read the Tao Te Ching and the book of Chung Zhu. The Analects was a good read and the Tao Te Ching and the book of Chung Zhu was a good read too.
Yes, and Mount Rushmore, to which Trump wants his effigy to be added. There's also Stone Mountain, the counter-monument in Georgia which opened on the centenary of Lincoln's assassination.
Chinese character for Confucianism is 儒, which is depiction of a person performing rainmaking ritual. Confucianist started out as religious ritual performers in the ancient times, but gradually turned into scholars and goverment officials.
I'm so glad that this came out today. I've been reading "A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy" (1963) translated and compiled by Wing-Tsit Chan and just re-watched the other Confucianism video last night.
A really excellent overview! I have Legge's translations of the Four Books and Five Classics (I'm missing the Spring and Autumn Annals, alas), and I'd love to discuss this with you.
One thing common in all religions is the high suppream entity who is all powerful uncreated Himself but created everything As a Muslim it increase my faith that there is only one God and other little gods are just the imagination of people.
Ancestor worship hundreds of years before Confucius! ROFL LOL... Understatement much? The three teachings of china are also known as the “three pillars” of ancient Chinese society or the great way also includes folk religion as well. The Western ideas of what is religion don't really apply to Eastern spiritual practices, or paths/methodology.
East Asians are fundamentally pagan. They never abandoned their ancestral gods, they just complement them with philosophies like Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism or more recently, Communism. A bit like how paganism was complemented by philosophies like Stoicism and Neoplatonism in ancient Rome or Greece.
At 15:36 you describe how Confucianism was reframed by jesuits, and I think it fits some popular understandings of confucianism (i.e. summaries we may find on the net). Would we say that this framework is simplistic and just a product of imperialist biases?
I live in East Asia and my neighbors tell me that Confucianism is not a religion per se. It does incorporate a practice of ancestral veneration but not ancestral worship, at least as defined by the Western cultural norms.
One of the definitions of religion is: "a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" -Merriam Webster The reality is virtually any group with any system of morality at all is a religion. As soon as an Atheists rights down a system of morality and hold to it as authoritative, they are also religious regardless of their beliefs of the origins of the universe.
I always thought Confucianism is a sociological idea, 儒家思想 literally means Ideology of Cultured Sage. 儒 means virtue/civilized, teaches social rules, regulations, etiquettes, manners, and moralities to be a person of virtues to uphold a harmonious civilization. It’s set of social values for a civilization he envisioned.
1) wait, I thought that Confucius *wrote* the spring and autumn annals? 2) there seem to be many parallels with the "USA state religion" which you laid on your channel...
Funny that the Qing officials disagreed over the status of Confucianism but they all attended the world congress of religions in the name of Confucianism anyway. Seems like that kind of seals the debate if you’re going to show up.
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This video is going to be censored in China. Good on ya!
12:59
Very interesting facts research grateful take care all blessings to you ! 😇
Students can access most of these books through their libraries access and if they cannot there are ways to access them without enriching the leeches of academic publishing. I will unsub if you promote these sorts of businesses again, especially to students.
I always thought of Confucianism as a philosophy within indigenous Chinese religious traditions, similar to Stoicism or Neoplatonism in the Mediterranean.
I was going to comment the same thing, calling confucianism a religion is the same as calling any western school of philosophy a religion, as you've said.
There is a pretty strong case for calling both Stoicism and Neoplatonism religions in some instances. It is definitely a matter for discussion.
@@QuiteWellAdjusted I would say that they are religions, as I would for Confucianism, but that they fit in as an understanding of Greco-Roman religion through a specific philosophy.
neoplatonism is not indigenious religious tradition xD
@@cloudsofsunset7323 it is a philosophical school within ancient Greek and Roman religious traditions.
This is all strange to me because growing up, there seemed to be no separation between Confucianism, Buddhism, or Daoism. In my household and in all the media we consume, it seemed like everyone just believed (or entertained the notion of) an amalgam of all three. Even though there were few specifically Buddhist idols in my house, one of the Daoist goddesses (using feminine pronouns because Guan Yin' seems to identify as female) is called Buddhist, and my family seems to call themselves Buddhist despite the worship of ancestors and other explicitly Daoist deities.
That’s how I grew up, too! I think as time passed, the beliefs and practices just merged into traditions.
I think that is the common experience amongst amongst the general population. All-or-Nothing sectarianism isn't really built into the beliefs as it is in Abrahamic religions. Yet even amongst those beliefs for instance, from an alien viewpoint, one could easily see an american as holding three religions: Christianity, Civil Patriotic Ritualism & secular values, and folk beliefs in things such as cryptids, aliens and an amalgamation of conspiratorial and New Age viewpoints.
@@Marbo12f As an American I definitely have the latter two, not Christian though. Religion comes in quite a few strange and surreal forms when viewed through an outsiders lens
Even the Chinese state struggles to separate religious traditions in China. While folk practices are described as superstitious and not recognised by the government, Buddhism and Daoism are valid. In order to receive official status, some folk temples like Heilongdawang have petitioned local authorities into classifying them as Daoist shrines so they can operate more easily.
In Indonesia, it is called as Tridharma or Sam Kauw or San Jiao. Some Indonesian chinese (other the ones who have been Muslim or Christian) do practice three religion at once but others do practice only one (Buddhist only or Confucianism only).
The trio of Confucianism, Buddhism, Daoism and their relationship is super interesting.
Also the painting Three Vinegar Tasters is awesome and interesting. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters
@@zelenisok I see!
The more scholarly aesthetic of your videos is quite refreshing - it's a rarity on TH-cam to see an introduction that actually lays down relevant context instead of being a melange of sales pitch and in-jokes
I don't think Confucius wanted to be worshipped. But he was a great sage for sure, great video by the way 👍
The Western Christian-centric ideas of what is and is not religion don't really apply to Eastern spiritual practices, or other non-Monotheistic cultures. Confucianism incorporates practices we would consider religious alongside practices we would consider secular and sees little distinction between the two.
As a Hindu from India, I definitely agree with you on that statement, and I can say that's more true for Hinduism than any other religion. In Hinduism,philosophy,science, religion,spirituality,music,arts,drama, they are all linked.The idea of what is religious and what is secular did not exist in any culture outside Christian Europe. These are categories developed by Western scholars but unfortunately most of the study on world history is done by them so things are according to their perspective.
@@debilista But it also incorporates practices considered to be religious in Western cultures.
@@debilista But Confucianism doesn't just _seem_ to do those things, it does incorporate practices considered to be religious in Western culture. Ancestor veneration and various other rites involving spirits and deities are very much part of Confucian practices. There isn't a difference between the secular and the sacred in Confucianism. That division between the two is entirely a Western concept.
@@debilista Your username basically means "I'm a N*****" I would consider changing it.
Merely "including practices we would consider secular" doesn't mean sth is not a religion. Also the concept of religion itself comes from the West, that's not one idea of religion, that's what religion means: myths, rules and common practices.
People sometimes poke fun at the Romans for pretending that the pantheons of every group they ran into were basically same as the Hellenistic pantheon, but Christian missionaries don't seem to be any better here
it all comes from the same people. Catholics are and were always the one deeming other´s believes as idolatry without really noticing the details. happened with greco-latin culture, happened again with far east believes
Dude, don't bag on Saint Confucius or his annointed disciple, Saint Mencius. We're all secretly Christian at the end of the day.
@@cloudsofsunset7323 I mean further, Catholics are literally centered in the old Roman empire and absorbed tons of their tendencies. I'd argue that Catholicism is just the continuation on the Roman Empire through subtler means.
I don't think the romans were that far off, most folks had a 'god of x' in their pantheons with a rather familar set of natural powers (sky, sea, mountains, forests) and human activilites (love, war, knowlege, humor, travel, domesticity) being univeral enough to be a reasonably understood to be analogs. And the Romans were making these comparisons on purpose for assimilation/accomadational reasons, and they werent the only ones who tried this strategy either.
@@kennethferland5579 Generally speaking people who spoke Indo-European languages tended to have pagan pantheons in which the main gods are the same. You can even trace the changes of their names back to their Proto-Indo-European origin through systematic rules of sound changes established with everyday speech. There are a few outliers though such as Thor not Odin would be expected to head the Norse pantheon as he has the right name and job (dude who uses lightning as a weapon), but what do you Thor was far more popular with the people than Odin.
As a Southeast Asian Chinese, Confucianism seems to be very much part of the overall culture, rather than seen exclusively as a religion. On the note of exclusivity, I think I have seen all three major Chinese religions and folk religions in the same temple like the Tua Pek Kong Temple in Sitiawan, Malaysia. Personally I think Chinese classics (e.g. Journey to the West where both Taoist and Buddhist deities exist together) played a huge role in normalising this sort of non-exclusivity.
Interestingly, I never knew Tua Pek Kong is our own Southeast Asian extension of the Chinese Folk Religion, who is not part of the "original" mythology. And that such mix-religion SEA Chinese temples are not exactly uncommon. Huh.
Yeah as a Malaysian Chinese whose family is Christian, I was taught Confucian values at home and in school without realising it's actually part of Confucianism and not just manners or Chinese culture. There's probably not much distinction between anyway.
Also wow I had no idea that Tua Pek Kong was SEAsian
I called Confucianism a religion in front of my Korean colleague and she was shocked, SHOCKED. She called it, “Too many rules.”
Lol as a Chinese, I never thought of confucianism as a religion. It is called 儒学 which is more like an study on how to be a decent human being and fit in society role at that time. Literally there is no god mentioned at all.
@@nanaliu9732 religion doesn't have to have a god. Unless you're looking at it from a eurocentric perspective, confucianism is very much a religion.
@@mongoose1628 Did you actually watch the video? Because it is literally the opposite of what you are saying.
It is a religion only if you are looking at it from a eurocentric perspective, not the other way round.
@@mongoose1628 儒学在我们看来是一种真理，这种真理没有边界，和宗教有很大区别。
@@Andy-bb2eo 感觉反了。儒学不是真理，儒学是一套值得提倡的价值观。宗教才会坚称自己是真理。
Speaking of ancestor worship… I consider it more of a way of comfort to the living. When our family members are dead, we don’t want them to leave forever, so are believing their deaths as the other way of living. Setting up altars for them is just the way to show them our love and honoring. Because they are not leaving us, we can still offer them food and talk about what we encounter in lives like always, and believe that when we pray to them, our ancestors will always help us and protect us like when they are still living. So, the idea of ancestor is to let them be remembered and stay existing, unlike what when you are worshipping a god.
So, yeah, in most cases nowadays, when someone says they are a Confucian, it’s more of describing someone as a practitioner of the teaching, not of the religion based on the philosophy. Like someone saying they are a Hedonist. Confucianism is in most cases seen as an approach of life and a way of living. So even though there are lots of practitioner of Confucianism, there are relatively few consider themselves involve religiously. 儒学（Confucianism as in the Hundred Schools of Thoughts in Philosophy) and 儒教 (Confucianism as a religion) are two different things. This might be the reason why we have so much debates on the topic. There should be terms to distinguish the two, like what they do in Religious Taoism and Philosophical Taoism.
In Chinese culture and traditions, at least for my family and relatives in China, HK, TW and SG, Ancestor worship, Confucianism, Buddhism, and Daoism have always been mixed and worship as a whole. There is no separation in them unless one goes more in-depth into a particular sect of religion (e.g. my family in SG goes more into the Vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhism), hopefully, @ReligionForBreakfast can do a video series on Tibetan Buddhism and Vajrayana). Confucianism, especially in terms of filial piety, humanness and morality had been the backbone of upbringing among my family for ages.
Agree. As Chinese descent from Vietnam. We call our religion as Buddhist; but we observe ancestors worship, take Confucius concepts of filial and Daoism very seriously.
First Bible in China was composed by Nestorian during Tang Dynasty.
This Nestorian Bible used many Buddhists term to illustrate gospels.
Indeed, the Church of the East - the Nestorian Dyophysites - who hated the decisions made at Chalcedon in 451 went eastwards, even to Korea and Japan without political support and encountered many religions of the East along the way. Bulding monasteries like the Daqin pagoda, which in Chinese meant the Roman Empire or "them from the West"
lol why is your name Kk k, is that your initials or is it suppose to mean something
although the idea that it was built by early Dyophysite missionaries has been contested, but there is no doubt they had a presence in China nontheless.
@@maxion5109, I'm afraid you made a slight error in your statement. The so-called Nestorians actually objected to the Council of Ephesus. It was their opponents, the so-called Monophysites, who objected to the Council of Chalcedon. I say "so-called" because there are people in both groups who object to those designations.
@@michaelhealy9449 Yes and no. They also objected to the Council of Chalcedon. The Council of Ephesus in 431 was a real flashpoint for them but it was only the beginning. It vindicated the issue of "Theotokos" which Nestorius had challenged and the Council ruined his career for good, but the brief mention of them being called merely non-Ephesine in Wikipedia is misleading. (If people happen to stumble over that sentence.) They didn't become harmoniously Chalcedonian in the 544 synod.
Chalcedon 451 proved to be the most divisive of them all. Ultimately it was a compromise designed to find a middle way and thus it left two parties in bitter disagreement with the outcome. Even though the formula largely followed Nestorius's viewpoints on the "two natures" "dyo physis" of Christ, it condemned him once more, burned his writings and children bearing his name were rebaptized. On one side, as you mentioned, are the "monophysites" "one nature" theologians (correct term is Miaphysite) and "mono" should be avoided, and on the other we have the "two nature" party and they felt that Nestorius had been treated with outrageous injustice. These protestors were labelled "nestorians", and like the "monophysite" label, is likewise a sneer-label designed to denigrate. A better term is Dyophysites or Theodoerans actually since Theodore of Mopsuestia is really the founding father of their theological stance whereas Nestorius is more of an exponent of said stance.
In the aftermath of Chalcedon they developed a distinct theology from the Chalcedonian churches with a more robust adherence to the dyo-physis of Christ. There was an attempt to ratify the Council of Chalcedon in 544 in a local council to the East but that agreement didn't last and the final distinction was made in 612. As far as I am aware.
But all in all, the Apostolic Assyrian Church of the East (official name) are indeed non-Chalcedonians as are the Miaphysites of the Oriental Orthodox Churches. People don't often realize how much Chalcedon was a disaster in uniting the Imperial Church.
East Asia's views on religion continue to baffle my western mind and intrigue my academic soul.
It's not so unusual for anyone familiar with pre-Christian religion in Western Europe. You could be a Stoic with particular reverence to Minerva who simultaneously participates actively in the Imperial Cult.
Europe is pretty unique with such distinctions. Its also quite a dilemma because while the distinction between religion, philosophy, and culture breaks down outside of Europe, there isn't another general frame of analysis that works either, so we kinda continue to use it.
I just discovered your channel and I like it. You deal with a sensitive topic in an even handed, respectful and objective manner. Most other TH-camrs dealing with similiar topics make an unfunny snarky "joke" every two minutes or inject their ideological biases. You don't, that's good.
You present everything in an understandable way for average people without dumbing things down. You're an intellectual without being grating and condescending like many intellectuals are. Keep up the good work.
A year later, but also check out Let's Talk Religion. His channel is on par with RFB
Fascinating video. The protestant scholar uttering a Christian prayer at a Confucian altar shocked me, I must admit. It reminded me of how the ancient Greeks would interpret the gods of the nations around them as being like their own.
Confucianism is difficult for many of us westerners to understand because it's not a _philosophy_ in the same sense as we've formulated philosophies to be for more than 2,000 years; but it's also not a _religion_ per se, since there is no focus on the supernatural existence of a god or gods, no exhortation to live righteously for the purpose of being blessed by said god(s), and no mythology.
And so if we decide to expand the definition of religion to include “philosophies,” wouldn't that make Stoicism, Epicureanism, Neoplatonism, and etc into religions?
Again, fascinating stuff.
One of the main confucianism advocated the scholars to respect and stay away from holy and evil spirits. 😁
In Chinese, we use the same word 「教」 for both religion ("-ism") and "teachings" (or "to teach").
Confucius is very much at the center or at the foundation of the Chinese civilization, and the Chinese civilization is, of course, based on the Chinese language and its various terms, idioms, etc., which are uniquely Chinese. When Westerners are trying to understand Confucius, they always embark on this question whether he's a religious man, or a philosopher, or an agnostic but the problem is that these are all western terms that do not exactly fit the fundamentally more pragmatic Chinese way of thinking about life, and the various "ways", "paths" (Dao) to go through life.
If American Culture is a religion, as previously discussed on this channel, then Confucianism has more than enough qualifications of being called a religion.
That's a great comparison!
I've always found it interesting that 'cult' and 'culture' both seem to me to be from the Latin 'cultus', if true culture (to me a way of life) is religion.
Like the stoics a philosophy that believed everything was part of God and that's why pain and pleasure was not important because of the pleasure or pain in other things, parts of God.
how could you say something so wrong in so many few words... you are not a continent to beging with
@@cloudsofsunset7323 technically, America is two continents
America has many overlapping sects, such as the cult of Elvis. Worshippers may have a shrine to him at home, but that does not stop them from also belonging to a church and being fervent birthers, Trumpists, etc. Many people "pass through" some of these cults, e.g. they may be a Goth for a few years.
By the norms of the 'West' aka Abrahamic religion, it would be considered philosophy not religion. But in the East their is not the sharp distinction between religion and philosophy. Western religions do have a philosphy assosiated with them, but we are effectivly cognativly blind to this because of the western views of religion being 'revealed' by phrophets rather then philosophised by a philosopher.
As a chinese I have to say, thank you for your describing, it's not bad at all! But I feel it's not how chinese people understand confucianism. I live in Kham and here we have so many different cultures, it's easy to comparing their differences, and we feel the confucianism is not at all like the occidental view. In the confucianism's world, the religious organization is familly, the ancestors and personal gods are same things, the tradition are the dogmas, the priest or religious leader is always the eldest son, a belief about gouvernment's power, and after all, they accept yi-king as the holy book, but not as bible in western world. In my view, the confucianism is more closed to judaism, which includes folkloric tradition and religious belief, and we also have the belief of saint king, like the messiah of judaism.
Chinese folk religion is a syncretic mixture of Confucianism, Chinese Buddhism and Taoism with ancestral worship and other traditional elements. This is the mainstream religious tradition of the Chinese people, especially among oversea Chinese diaspora communities. Taoism is consider the only organised religion that was originated from China and evolved from ancient Chinese Shamanism, quite similar to Shintoism from Japan and Sinism from Korea. The most beautiful part about these three spiritual traditions is that there is never any religious war fought in their name throughout the history of China.
It is quite interesting you point out there is no religious war between these three traditions. You are right that the religion leaders did not lead any religious war, however, the ideological wars between these different religions were fought at the court during different dynasties. There were several kings and emperors who imposed strict rules or even bans on different religions, especially Buddhism.
There were ideological competitions among the three religious traditions and several emperors did imposed heavy restrictions and penalties towards a particular religion, like Tang Wu Zong's ruling on Buddhism. However, there is never a full scale religious war among the three religious traditions in China's history.
@@dhammapalatan360 😀😄👍
Really good video, Confucianism is interesting as a world-religion. The Confucian literati, especially Zhu Xi wrote much on the spiritual tradition, hierarchy of spirits and theology/metaphysics on Confucianism. He also wanted to get rid of Buddhism and Daoism, which he viewed as worshiping demons in many cases, this shows that Confucianism may have some form of dogmatic beliefs. However here Zhu Xi held to the belief of Shang-Zhou tradition, Heaven Worship, which is why he also went around studying the belief and practices of minority groups in China (Zhu Xi was even used extensively by Taiping Rebels). To not forget about Japanese Confucianism who saw no separation between Shinto and Confucianism, Shinto as a term being itself taken from the Book of Rites. Studying Zhu Xi you will find much in common with shinto beliefs, not without reason since Confucianism would influence Shinto by giving it a form of theology which would allow it to become independent of Buddhism.
These Confucians also saw a strict distinction between the Way of Heaven/Shangdi vs that of hetrodoxical teachings of Daoism and Buddhism. Interestingly however it is hard to define if Confucianism has a theological doctrine - that is you can use Confucian metaphysics and theology yet still conform to Islamic and Christian dogma. Liu Chih being an example of a Muslim Confucian who did this. This is interesting in regard to plural practice of religions, since by definition it is impossible to do so within Islam and Christianity, yet there are several people who may define themselves as Christian or Muslim Confucians. As such Confucianism as a tradition may be quite helpful in regard to dialogue between different religions.
I thoroughly enjoyed the video. However there's an important point which you missed. In 1939 his holiness Pope pius xii released a new decree known as Plane Compertum which recognised the Chinese rites of venerating confucius and ancestors as a cultural practice of filial piety which is civil in nature and an honourable way of esteeming one's relatives rather than superstition. It effectively recognised it as a philosophy compatible with Catholicism rather than a separate religion.
Yes. This should be dealt with in a follow-up video. This one was seriously misleading on this point.
@@JimmyAkinAre you THE Jimmy akin? Glad that you noticed my point sir!
@@antonykasper8743 I'm the only Jimmy Akin I know personally! :-) And I'm glad you made the point. I was going to make it myself until I saw you'd already done so. Great job!
"China is a huge market, we need to convert them."
But they have this weird thing that they worship their ancestor and it is entrenched."
"Say it is not really worship, just veneration so it does not violate our doctrine. Now go and convert them. God and the church will be most pleased with a couple hundred of million new Chinese believers."
"As you command, your holiness."
that "decree" is coming from the catholic perspective, however. it only says this in order to better mix/destroy our roots in China, since Confucianism was, is, and shall be Religious at the outset. In our Scripture, we have verses warning against outer syncretism.
Hey, this video rules! The brief mention of the Jesuits' attempt to bring Christianity to Japan reminded me that the Kakure Kirishitans (Japan's "hidden Christians") might make for an interesting topic for a future video: there are parallels to the Jesuits taking on the trappings of Buddhism and then Confucianism to make it easier for them to bring Christianity to China in that the Kakure Kirishitans often disguised their religious practices as Buddhist rituals. Anyway, I really enjoy your videos, keep on making that good content!
Hidden religions occurred in many places in history. After the expulsion of the Jews from mediaeval England, some of the families who remained had to hide their religious practices, and later under Protestant hegemony many Catholic families had to hide what they were doing at home while also attending Church of England services as required by law.
After the Reconquista Spanish Jews and Muslims had to leave or convert, but some of the converts secretly continued their old religions: many of those emigrated but remained hidden.
African slaves in the US also hid their cultural and religious practices from their white masters.
Andrew, could you do a do a video / series on the role of acclimation to local cultures in regards to evangelization efforts? How does the prosceltyzing community decide to make value judgements about what is imperative to keep as dogmatic theology; what is more tertiary; and what local religious practices can be co-opted?
Great idea!
Despite its flaws, I really heavily prefer the Legge translation of the Confucian Analects. It’s so much more charming and powerfully-worded than the modern one.
This is how a hero becomes a god. Fascinating to see it in action.
Mad respect to the Parliament of the Worlds' Religions. They have been meeting in peace for well over 100 years.
Nice to see that Perlego is sponsoring you, have been using their service for a while and it’s pretty neat. Just wish their eBooks for be more suitable for citing 🙃
Cool to hear! And yeah...same with citing almost any digital product honestly.
@@ReligionForBreakfast Yes, that's true!
I just saw that they now allow copy&paste. That's a step in the right direction :D
Confucianism honestly sounds really attractive. Ancestor worship is something many can relate to (especially me as an African) and the lack of gods, divinity etc is awesome for cultivating morality without anchoring to a supremacy war over the supreme beings.
When the video ended I heard Holy Koolaid's outro in my head! Great content as usual.
Good video. As someone with about three decades of life in Japan, and as someone who is very interested in east Asian culture, it seems to me that Confucianism is more of a philosophy of just government than a religion. Nevertheless, I recognize that there are many aspects of Confucianism that make it more like a religion than a philosophy. Your video very nicely brought out these different facets.
Yes and not. We can't negate that at the level of folk practice (or folk devotion) Confucianism has a religious dimension.
You and UsefulCharts should team up to make a massive Venn Diagram comparing and contrasting all of the major world religions by rituals, beliefs, practices, etc.
As a Chinese who has read most of the Confucian core texts carefully (The Four Books and Five Classics in particular, and Zhu Xi’s commentaries), I do think that it functionally works no different from a religion (it has a set of holy texts/scripture, a scholastic tradition of commentary and philology surrounding that scripture, a pantheon of secular saints and sages to be worshipped, and an absolutely obnoxious moral self-confidence in its own righteousness and exclusive access to truth rivaling that of Christianity), despite the fact that the actual content and teachings of Confucianism are essentially secular and somewhat anti-religious in nature (“Respect the Gods and maintain a distance from them” the Master said, “How can one not serve the other humans around him first before serving the Gods?”). I think this points to a limitation in the Western concept of theistic religion itself, rather than something wrong with Confucianism. During the Song, Yuan, Ming and Qing dynasties (from 960 all the way to 1912 continually), Confucianism also had its own highly hierarchical army of priests (the scholar-bureaucrats) who busied themselves with interpreting the texts and teaching them to the masses. If this is not a religion I don’t know what is.
I’m left scratching my head at the footage of the One Pillar Pagoda when you were talking about Confucianism, since it’s a Buddhist temple to Avalokitesvara/Quan Âm
Many comments from Easy Asians mention that those aren’t separated
I think I also watched a documentary once where the temple headmaster (?) said something along the lines of "Confucius is the God of Culture".
And I would guess that it is kind of like in Japan where Shinto is more culture than a systematic religion. So people act on it and so on but wouldn't call themselves "Confucianist". A lot of traditions and traditional values come from Confucius, yet no-one seems to call themselves "Confucianist" in any way.
I am really invested in this line of work about conficianism. I look forward next video
I adore you and your videos and am working my way through them all. My area of expertise is China. Just a small note but one that Sinologists will notice. There is no short "a" sound in Chinese. Tang, Han, Shang, Yang are all pronounced with an "ah" sound as in altar rather than as in "hand."
Are his videos on chinese religions good?
@@anyoneatall3488 I think all his videos are very good but they are intended most often as very introductory, as he himself would say. Thus, one has to delve deeper if you want to know more. Let's Talk Religion sometimes does longer in-depth talks, but I don't think he has done anything on Chinese thought. He is most interested apparently on Muslim history and religion.
I'd consider Confucianism more of a philosophy or ideology with a connection to religion, like how conservatism in America is heavily tied to evangelicalism.
I really enjoy the way you present and stay fairly objective while still honoring so many paths to spiritualiy🙉
This was so interesting! I’ve been to many of the places in China you mention here and I gained a much better appreciation for them through this history. Thanks!
I think looking at Confucian practice in Korea might be worth a look, though it seems to have followed a similar path to the Imperial State Religion you reference here.
The closest to a Confucian religion I have seen is the Donghak movement that eventually became modern Cheondogyo and its splinter groups. However, they all feature major influences from Daoism and Korean Shindo (aka Muism)
Fascinating episode! This is really one of the best channels on youtube. 🙏🔯⛪🏯⛩️
The qilin are what the kirin from the anime the 12 kingdoms are based off. Very cool.
Do scholars of religious studies today consider it a "science" today?
yes, religious studies applies the scientific method to their study of religion. It's very similar to anthropology and they often overlap in their studies.
The scientific study of religion is murky though and does have a foundation in academic studies over scientific studies.
The banning of ancestor really did irreparable damage to the public image of Christianity in Korea at the time.
Good
@Cultöerectus Ironic as it's known Kim Il Sung's mother was a devout Protestant and took him the church
@@cronochaos38 not really ironic given that both protestantism and communism are western ideas, they'll spread through the same nodes and people.
Wow!
Complex! And fascinating!
Good job!
Will there be subtitles for deaf viewers like me? I'm interested in this, also.
This is just s personal note, but I never knew my father's father, because he died when my dad was just five years old. I asked dad once whether he remembered the sound of his dad's voice, and he told me no: too long ago, for one thing, but, for another, his dad was always on the road for business and hardly ever home.
That’s what angers me about labeling ancestor worship as “idolatry”, you’re basically trying to keep the memories of your past relatives alive for as long as possible, wondering what they would do in your shoes when it comes to life’s problems and revering their wisdom.
We do that in the West (Los Dias De Los Muertos is a famous example) along with preserving journals, photos and other keepsakes and even doing genealogical work. It boggles my mind that some rituals and rights are just slapped with the label of “worship/idolatry” and therefore “bad”
@@rachel_sj Well, they paid the price for it, take a look at Emperor Kangxi's response to Pope Clement XI's ban on ancestor veneration: "Reading this proclamation, I have concluded that the Westerners are petty indeed. It is impossible to reason with them because they do not understand larger issues as we understand them in China. There is not a single Westerner versed in Chinese works, and their remarks are often incredible and ridiculous. To judge from this proclamation, their religion is no different from other small, bigoted sects of Buddhism or Taoism. I have never seen a document which contains so much nonsense. From now on, Westerners should not be allowed to preach in China, to avoid further trouble."
@@rachel_sj It's only Idolatry if you follow an Abrahimic religion.
It's really strange that honoring the ancestors was seen as idolatry. Don't christians believe in honoring some of the christians of previous generations that came before them? Isn't that what the veneration of Saints is?
@@lovestarlightgiver2402 It would be more accurately described as ancestor veneration. Christianity has a tradition of venerating saints but not ancestors. It is understandable in a sense in that ancestor veneration rituals and the reasons behind them very much overlaps with Chinese folk religion. Though Catholicism did have a history of Christianizing pagan practices so I don't see why they didn't do that.
If you are still in Egypt doing studies, I would be interested in how the Egyptian Coptic's came up with a travel log of where Jesus traveled in Egypt while there as a child. Is it based on fact or is it a myth that just grew or is it maybe related to pilgrim culture? Thank you
As always, thanks for this video! While this topic is quite interesting, I think the question being asked here, “Is Confucianism a religion?”, doesn’t seem very important. No matter which side of the line you decide to put it one-which I think is ultimately arbitrary-it is at least on the fringe and demands a place in religious studies. But the point should be just to compare & contrast rather than to answer that question, which threatens to distract from the things to be learned here.
I never could think of Confucianism as a religion, but then what is it? Ideology? Discipline? It's own magisterium? Then this made me think:"what is Stoicism or Neoplatonism?" Philosophies yes, but that word is confusing in and of itself.
Try "Way of Living" or "Dao". Or try "Folkway".
@@Duiker36 Discipline is shorthand for "way of life". Confucianism is far from a folkway, they tend to be simple; Confucius has been venerated by officialdom for thousands of years.
Thank you for your explanation of Confucianism and Perlego; I have joined and subscribed to your channel. Looking forward to learning more.
A divine father and mortal mother who birthed a great teacher...🧐 One of the eldest stories ever told with several veriations.
From I learned from others and from my own research Confucius and his writings are more like a guide to teach your families and future generations on how to be better and productive human beings.
It’s impressive that some Christians had a positive opinion on Confucianism(knowing how they behave towards others religions)
And that also would relate to why Christianity is a great religion in Korea.
appreciate this video. struggled with Confucianism and Daoism so videos on the topic are appreciated :)
Ancestral worship is a thing in Europe as well, arguably it's more common than organised religion in some countries, and yet we often don't notice it or consider "religious". Like, we literally get a day off on November 1st to pay a visit to the graves of our ancestors.
Thank you for everything you do for us ♥️
From Tsai Chih Chung's cartoon books on Chinese philosophy, I learned that there were many thought systems during warring states period, but it seems like only Confucianism got more popularized during recent time. It's interesting to know that Western religious groups are one of the major (maybe the biggest even?) driving forces behind that popularization.
I was under the impression that Daoism was roughly contemporary.
@@johnkilmartin5101 I think so. Zhuangzi was among the ones who started Taoism/Daoism. It was probably not called Daoism when they first came up with it though.
It depends on our definition of "religion". For today's standards, after a long influence on western studies' from Christianity, we shaped our idea of religion. But religion was originally just the roman religion and similar phenomena recognized by roman culture. What we call religion today was considered by romans "immodica et prava superstitio" or "excessive and corrupted religious obsession". Confucianism would have been considered religion from roman point of view: they sacrificed to ancestors, they considered religion functional for social and political, they had traditional gods to respect, etc.
Basically throughout the whole video, I was seeing massive parallels between this and Shinto. IMO if one's a religion, the other is too.
I think Kong Qiū would appreciate the idea of a ritual visit before exams on multiple levels
Glad you mentioned Matteo Ricci's work. He recognise Confucianism as God's unwritten law on gentles' heart, and say he came to complete Confucianism. As Confucious did say himself he desired to learth the true Dao. I think the Rites Dispute between Qing's emperor and the Pope was a shame that really killed the opportunity for the royal family in China to adopt Christianality. Followed by that the church was eastablished in Beijing was shut down.
I like Confucianism as an idea, then, because it's meant to bring families closer. I PREFER Daoism, if we're talking just about China's endemic religions/philosophies, but Confucianism does have an excellent value system that even the Catholic church couldn't find fault with, and they are a ludicrously hyper-critical sect.
I like this
"Sect", okay heretic.
@@flo-theo, "heretic" is a compliment to me if it's coming from a Catholic. And yeah, it's a sect of Christianity. Sect or branch.
LOL catholics are "hyper critical sect"? What about [insert every reformation sects] that broke off from Catholic church because they were critical of the Catholic church??
@@ActiveAdvocate1 "Heretic is a compliment to me, if it's coming from a Catholic" -🤓
A comedian, a bad comedian, but a comedian regardless.
Is there any substantive similarity between the Mandate of Heaven and the Jewish Covenant? The idea that a moral failing among the ruling elite can rob them both of a supernatural blessing and political legitimacy reminds me a lot of Jeremiah’s condemnations of Israel.
No
Simple ans : nope
Long ans : yes maybe it can
If you are into religious study or kinda into comparative religion then you will see many scholars or those who study comparative religions will say the God of old testament and impersonal God of confucianism (lord tian) is the same God
So it can be that same entity or same personality can rule over human efforts and give 'objective' or divine law
But the main part is nope.
The covenant and mandate of Heaven is not same or got some deeper similarities
*Confucius, the guy who invented confusion*
That attempted transcription stems from Kongfuzi. We called him Kongzi before, which would transcribe to Concius (like Conscious).
did you get that from the video of, i believe, miss universe, in panama? or perhaps it is one of those many beauty pageants i dunno.
Amazing video as always!
I'd love to see a full episode on Shangdi. Sounds almost monotheistic.
Now I need a video on Mohism. Because I need more people to know about Mohism.
I think Chinese Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism, and Chinese folk religion should be considered one large religion for simplicity called 'Chinese Syncretism'
Like Hinduism?
@@tcxnt5442 yea
Leave out Buddhism and I'm down.
I draw a distinction between religion and ideology, the former is considered with something beyond our word, the latter with something that can be construed on earth
Can you please also talk about Tao / Taoism, is it a religion or more philosophy. Thanks.
But Confucianism is just one facet of the Dao. Along with Legalism, Daoism, Mohism and other philosophies born in the Zhou Dynasty… so the religion is called Zhouism ☯️ … the founder is the Duke of Zhou, the Deity is Tian 天and Confucius is the Moses or Muhammad of Zhouism. Confucius himself said he followed the Duke of Zhou. All the Zhou philosophies are aspects of the Dao that is China’s unique contribution to human history.
8:23 it's funny how the yellow thing being hung there says "anti-japanese victory 60th anniversary prayer for peace"
Great video. I’m learning alot thank you
Thanks so much Rob. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Stay tuned for Confucianism Episode 3 next month.
@@ReligionForBreakfast can you do a video on Hinduism please. And emphasize that Hindus don’t worship millions of gods, but many aspects of the ultimate reality known as Brahman. And can you talk about the different philosophical schools within Hinduism, not go into detail because the video will be too long. Just covering Hinduism like in your other videos
If you're interested in Hinduism or Islamic philosophy you should check out "let's talk religion" great channel.
@@SonofSethoitae well he should mention that in the video
@@SonofSethoitae but I already know this
Confucius being converted into a god is pretty counterintuitive. For he believed what one does in their mortality matters more then what is to come in the afterlife. You make your point when your alive. He didn't completely denounce the dead though. Honoring family of the past is integral to the whole idea of social togetherness.
Although the word Tian 天 is generally translated as "Heaven", it's worth noting it's not Heaven in the Christian sense of the word. You could infact do an entire video just on the concept of the Ancient Chinese "Heaven".
Yes, but even the Christian concept of Heaven (or Paradise as we say in neo-latin languages countries) is based on the Greek-roman views of the Sky/Heaven as "Gods Realm" , that I think is pretty similar to the Chinese concept.
The English word "Heaven" as various meaning, depending on the context. In language as Italian we use the word "Cielo" (Sky, with the capitalist letter) to refer at a generic "God(s) Realm in the Sky" and "Paradiso" for the Christian Heaven or pleasure places in afterlife. 😊
It is indeed very similar. No image, monotheism, judge, most justified, only the priest worship Him - emperor do the worship only.
For me at least, religions have to have at least this 3 things.
1. Spiritualism.
2. Ethics.
3. Rituals.
Therefore, following this criteria, Confucianism can be categorized as a religion. Feel free to disagree.
so you don't believe in non-theists religions? since the spiritual part wouldn't be there
4. believing in the supernatural
Hmm.. how about religion is philosophy ritualised?
I have read the Anelects by Confucianism. I know the Chung Zhu highly opposed Confucianism. In the Analects by Confucius, he addresses about his philosophy of hierarchy, order and certain values within the hierarchy and order. For some reason Chung Zhu opposed Confucius. I need to get more books on Confucuis and Chung Zhu. I have read the Tao Te Ching and the book of Chung Zhu. The Analects was a good read and the Tao Te Ching and the book of Chung Zhu was a good read too.
I've seen a giant Lincoln statue in a shrine before, is that a religion?
Yes, and Mount Rushmore, to which Trump wants his effigy to be added. There's also Stone Mountain, the counter-monument in Georgia which opened on the centenary of Lincoln's assassination.
Chinese character for Confucianism is 儒, which is depiction of a person performing rainmaking ritual.
Confucianist started out as religious ritual performers in the ancient times, but gradually turned into scholars and goverment officials.
I'm so glad that this came out today. I've been reading "A Source Book in Chinese Philosophy" (1963) translated and compiled by Wing-Tsit Chan and just re-watched the other Confucianism video last night.
A really excellent overview! I have Legge's translations of the Four Books and Five Classics (I'm missing the Spring and Autumn Annals, alas), and I'd love to discuss this with you.
My Teacher Made Me Watch This, So Pin Me Please. Also I Had To Reflect Myself And Confucianism, Basically I turned in late :)))
One thing common in all religions is the high suppream entity who is all powerful uncreated Himself but created everything As a Muslim it increase my faith that there is only one God and other little gods are just the imagination of people.
Where i'm from Confucianism is one of the 6 major religion (i'm from Indonesia), so this will be interesting
quality as usual, i am so glad i found your channel. can i suggest you make a video on jehovah's witnesses?
Ancestor worship hundreds of years before Confucius! ROFL LOL... Understatement much? The three teachings of china are also known as the “three pillars” of ancient Chinese society or the great way also includes folk religion as well. The Western ideas of what is religion don't really apply to Eastern spiritual practices, or paths/methodology.
East Asians are fundamentally pagan. They never abandoned their ancestral gods, they just complement them with philosophies like Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism or more recently, Communism. A bit like how paganism was complemented by philosophies like Stoicism and Neoplatonism in ancient Rome or Greece.
At 15:36 you describe how Confucianism was reframed by jesuits, and I think it fits some popular understandings of confucianism (i.e. summaries we may find on the net). Would we say that this framework is simplistic and just a product of imperialist biases?
I was hoping that you might mention the Confucian Church. Though it looks like the next video might mention it.
Yeah, that's coming up next episode.
In Japanese, Korean ,Vietnamese, Singaporean, Chinese education will teach Confucius. Filial, manner, bow all from Confucius.
obviously leaving out taiwan and korea from the discussion of confucianims is a bad approach and this video proved it.
I live in East Asia and my neighbors tell me that Confucianism is not a religion per se. It does incorporate a practice of ancestral veneration but not ancestral worship, at least as defined by the Western cultural norms.
One of the definitions of religion is:
"a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith" -Merriam Webster
The reality is virtually any group with any system of morality at all is a religion. As soon as an Atheists rights down a system of morality and hold to it as authoritative, they are also religious regardless of their beliefs of the origins of the universe.
Grateful for mentioning Mao. There's something offensive about abandoning the Three Teachings(Kung fun tze,Lao tze and the Buddha) for Marx.
It was never just Marx. The Red Pantheon consisted of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin, and nowadays also Mao and Xi.
You must think about for the role of the doctrine of the Three teachers in a Chinese society who as finished to sing the Unequal Treaties
I always thought Confucianism is a sociological idea, 儒家思想 literally means Ideology of Cultured Sage. 儒 means virtue/civilized, teaches social rules, regulations, etiquettes, manners, and moralities to be a person of virtues to uphold a harmonious civilization. It’s set of social values for a civilization he envisioned.
1) wait, I thought that Confucius *wrote* the spring and autumn annals?
2) there seem to be many parallels with the "USA state religion" which you laid on your channel...
Funny that the Qing officials disagreed over the status of Confucianism but they all attended the world congress of religions in the name of Confucianism anyway. Seems like that kind of seals the debate if you’re going to show up.
Awesome video, tnx a lot !!
I suppose the real question to ask is where does the libe between cultural practice and religious practice fall?