Testing NEMA23 Servos - Making Torque Spools | ELS Part 23
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 พ.ค. 2021
- Today I'm making good on an old promise and we're going to test some NEMA23 steppers and servos for the Electronic Leadscrew. The first step is making some spools so we can drive the servos, wind up a line and measure the force produced at stall.
Stuff shown in this video:
*This site contains affiliate links for which I may be compensated
5C Collet Chuck (eBay*): ebay.to/3lMVbbr
5C Collets Set - Imperial (Amazon*): amzn.to/3mOcmcQ
5C Collet Set - Metric (Amazon*): amzn.to/3rsBz00
Shars AXA Quick Change Tool Post Set (eBay*): ebay.to/2SWkUQZ
Shars CCMT0602 RH turning tool holder (eBay*): ebay.to/2SUS4jL
Shars CCGX 21.52 insert for aluminum (eBay*): ebay.to/2Hcd5Fu
Aventor 8" DPS IP54 Caliper (eBay*): ebay.to/37y1Tg3
HFS 190-Piece (0.061-0.250") Gage Pin Set Minus (Amazon*): amzn.to/2DDSAf3
HFS 250-Piece (0.251-0.500) Gage Pin Set Minus (Amazon*): amzn.to/3cjEX5k
YG-1 1/4" 120 degree spotting drill (eBay*): ebay.to/2MayWfj
Chicago Latrobe HSS Short Letter Drill Set (Amazon*): amzn.to/2PWx0dL
Chicago Latrobe HSS Short Number Drill Set (Amazon*): amzn.to/2Qgss0S
Chicago Latrobe HSS Short Franctional Drill Set (Amazon*): amzn.to/3mkmziD
Wilton 6-1/2" Tradesman Vise (Amazon*): amzn.to/33fqPXz
Shars Ultra Precision 1-2-3 Blocks (pair) (eBay*): ebay.to/2RxwqWc
1/4 x 6" Parallel Set (Amazon*): amzn.to/3swn5Mj
Kurt DX6 6" Mill Vise (Amazon*): amzn.to/3nntHuh
Mill Vise Speed Handle (Amazon*): amzn.to/3u4DsSa
A9 Cutting Fluid for aluminum (eBay*): ebay.to/2FBUi3Q
Bondhus Metric Hex Key Set (Amazon*): amzn.to/3eqZzwb
Bondhus SAE Hex Key Set (Amazon*): amzn.to/3h9bJLZ
NEMA23 Closed Loop Stepper 2Nm (Amazon*): amzn.to/33ngV6V
NEMA23 Closed Loop Stepper 3.1Nm (eBay*): ebay.to/3uuCXR9
Creatine Monohydrate (Amazon*): amzn.to/3fi4jDJ
Raw Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
creativecommons.org/licenses/b...
![🎮เกมยิงปืนใหม่ ภาพสวย และ สมจริงที่สุดในโลก [ BODYCAM ]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/My3l1owRY9I/mqdefault.jpg)
"Do you like how I'm mixing units? That way I anger everybody at the same time." Bloody brilliant! Love the dry humor, sir! Don't ever change, and stuff the negative naysayers.
Made perfect sense though.
Imperial bore, metric key, imperial setscrew.
I spy a pattern. 😋
I love reading people who use creative English, more so when used correctly. Naysaying is to criticize, so negative naysaying is to approve. :) BTW, unfortunately I am a pedant.
My two stroke oil comes in a bottle like that coffee!
So does my fuel preservative (stabil)!
I thought the coffee was just a gag initially - the only fluid I've ever seen in a bottle like that is weed killer!
Same here, the only bottle I have like that is full of sanitizer used for cleaning bottles/etc when homebrewing.
I thought it was a gag using a reused bottle of Eagle fuel stabilizer (Sta-Bil)!
Two stroke oil.
Same thought. I recognize that as the bottle that Star San comes in. And honestly, I bet that coffee has equal or greater disinfecting power!
It is amazing what some countries put into containers. I've seen that used for soup broth as well.
Dude you really are bad ass. All your videos are so well done and I learn a truck load. And I learned a new way to make coffee low fat and great for the gym. Again thanks..
Love it. I love your video editing. Also the constant explaining and talking is very enjoyable and "on point quality".
Thank you :)
I came to watch some servo testing, and ended up watching some lathe work. Still entertaining, so I'm not complaining.
One of the few channels I don't miss a single video
High quality videos like the ones on this channel help me tolerate stay-at-home orders. Thanks James!
James - thanks for the streamlined discussion of a complicated topic...appreciate the effort you put into these types of “experiments”...
Thanks for doing this, I'm excited to see the results (especially any torque vs rpm you are able to tease out)!
Great video for a great project. Looking forward to the test.👍👍
Always learn something. Your commentary and inserted 'text' notes are excellent!
Thanks for all your troubles for informing us.
"This is a three phase brushless servo motor" - Clough42 2021
Your channel your rules. Great video, thanks for posting.
Thanks for sharing these videos I always enjoy them! The mixing of units is great, it's like you are a Canadian! 😁
Excellent, looking forward to this.
Nice going so far. Looking forward to see the results.
Can’t wait!! Thanks for the great content!
Fehlmann for an Arbor Press
They started as a hand tool company in Switzerland making drill presses 100 years ago. Today, they build 5 axis CNC mills/grinders in the same lab-grade class as a Kern or Hermle. Probably because it is the best one in the world, they still build their DP1 and DP2 arbor presses, and they are super nice in that old-school way you would clearly appreciate. ~$750 shipped from Europe and... Worth. Every. Penny.
Thanks for sharing!
Love the videos! Keep up the good work 💪
Interesting project!!!
I should prob adopt your coffee recipe myself.. I stumbled across one of your videos a few years ago and was like Woah!! You've done some crazy weight loss overhaul!! Super inspirational!! Looking good man!! 👍🍻
If only it were that easy. :)
Very interesting, as always.
Enjoyed...Great info !
Nice looking pulleys you made there! The broach method did a fine job on that keyway as well :)
nice work.
Needing a large throated press that isn't too heavy to move or too large for a home shop led me to getting a Kaka AP-2S, which has an adjustable head that travels on a column. It's fine; does the job and can be tucked away in a cabinet, even though you'll want to bolt it down when in use. I told myself if I ever needed a bigger throat, I could easily machine the requisite notches in a bar of 1.5" steel of the desired length. Might be a fun series to see how you'd customize it -- it's not without it's quirks.
Great video enjoyed it. Ahll be baak for the next one.
I've used some of those Clearpath servos at work on various projects, with mixed results. One project with one of the smallest models has had the control board burn out after a few months of use 3 times now. At least they've covered repairs on them each time, but still...
Also, I'd recommend only using their D shaft or uncut shafts if you don't want to spend time customizing keystock.
Whatever arbor press you buy,get a ratcheting press. The problem with buying anything heavy is,the shipping cost. I measured the length of my longest broach plus 3”.For most of my needs,it has served me well.
Extra shot of cold brew and you can press the broach by hand.
I’ve got nothing negative to say, it was all great! I am going to say that I’d like to see you use safety glasses. Especially when using air time blow chips away! Can’t wait to see the next video!
Yup. I had them on when working on the lathe, and then misplaced them somewhere. :(
Don't be prejudiced, use mixed units and upset everyone equally.
0.375" (9.525mm) with a 3mm key is most exotic. It's almost as though someone is trying to obfuscate things or create a niche market. I'd be tempted to source timing pulleys with a pilot bore and machine to size.
PS. Using the tailstock on your lathe as a makeshift press also works. At least it keeps the broach axially aligned.
Great vid
First off, apparently I'm part of the cause for the drink explanation. I still like my Vietnamese coffee :)
And yeah, I thought "yikes" as well watching the broach bend. I'm surprised that it didn't shatter, but I also understand needing to get the job done.
I'm also looking for a arbor press, maybe around 1-ton, to replace a huge and unused 12-ton HF hydraulic press.
I have an arbor press and it is fairly small like yours. One feature I want on a future unit is a ratcheting handle or maybe the ability to just put a 1/2" drive ratchet onto the pinion.
Tekton LONG handle ratchets are quite nice BTW.
I want a stepper motor on my arbor press!!! With a torque meter!
I have no particular recommendation for a good arbor press (I have used Dake, Atlas, Greenard, and a pile of other makes at various jobs. I own an older no-name from MSC.There isn't a lot of difference once you go above the bottom end) other than size matters and a compound ratchet is nice. You don't get what you don't pay for, though. They get heavy REAL fast. I own a 2ton, and though I would like a 3 or a 5, what I have is already about 50Kg and I can't spare more space. Lower end presses weigh less, but are over-rated for load and/or reduce travel and throat. When I got it, I made sure that the ram was reversable end-for-end, and I slotted one end on my shaper- I would have bored it if I had access to a lathe with a 2 inch spindle through bore at the time- to allow for the largest broach I figured I can push with it. Start with the broach in the slot to gain 4 inches of travel, then put a cup over the ram end to push it the rest of the way. Pulling the cloverleaf plate buys another 30mm or so. For bearing and bushing work, I use the other end of the ram. It takes about one minute to flip it.
I had the same thing on rack and pinion gear .375 shaft so I bought an key broach from shars 3mm keyway and modified the arbor press i did to my harbor freight used spacer block and bolted it to gather.
12:20 "as is tradition" dont know why ,but it randomly came to my mind :)
I know why. :)
Mate, I love the way you mix your units: 26:58 And if it angers stupid people, so much the better. ;-)
Thanks for answering my emailed question... :) Can you cover how to figure out how much torque you need for a given lathe? I.e., how to measure or figure out what's necessary? Thanks for all you do... LOVE your videos.
I had also an ELS on my little Lathe
I always use the broach on the lathe... If I am lazy because I can use the hydraulic press... Although the Colchester 2000 is a bit more ridged... I use the tailstock to push it in...
James, I know you’ll think I’m a hack but that tiny broach in aluminum could be pushed at least half way through with your mill quill or better your drill press without any damage.
you may look into JMC servos. iHSV57 or iHSV60 something. the 400W ones are around 150$, runs on 60V. but they run at a higher rpm and have less torque than the clearpath. but with a gearbox its cheaper and as capable.
If the belt pulley came with a hub, you can cut it down to a 0.03-0.05" thick shell, slot it and clamp it with an external clamp collar. Lots of the gears and pulleys from Stock Drive are setup this way.
Great vid that I've been waiting for...👍 Aren't those servos the same that NY CNC fell in love with a year or four ago? What gear/pulleys did they use?
Yeah, I think John did a video extolling their virtues. I'm excited to see what it actually does. Bench testing seems very promising so far. Stay tuned.
@9:30 The flanges are usually press fitted and are not precise to actual center or perfectly round. Also the hole or the shoulder are not always true center either.
Yeah. Understood. I did some testing and it seems close enough for a belt.
@@Clough42 I once had spur gears where shoulder and hole where almost 1mm off from the center. :D Had to wrap some gauge pins around and dial in from the module diameter, or it is called pitch diameter? Anyway, waiting for the follow up on the motor testing.
Hey bud, so not sure if you're aware of "Hybrid Stepper" motors. They aren't some weird driven stepper or servo-hybrids, they are permanent magnet, high power stepper motors. They can typically be identified by having a round case made out of aluminum, instead of a stacked steel construction like a normal stepper. But act like normal steppers, they are just $$$, higher powered motors.
Do you know about the Mechaduino? It's a bolt-on "adapter". It's a stepper motor driver, non-contact encoder, and microcontroller (arduino compatable, but a SAM chip with an arm M0 core much faster than an avr328), all rolled into one. It just screws onto the back of the stepper motor, you glue a magnet to the back of the stepper shaft. It's then a self-contained servo. You provide it DC power, and signal. It's an open source project, and can be controlled via CanBUS, serial, i2c, spi, and also just normal STEP DIR signalling. They can be had real inexpensive as clones, but even the name brand is quite cheap. It then has full closed loop servo control. They are QUITE NICE. I have them on a few projects.
Not sure if you're aware of the above but felt like I should give some hints
A little whiskey in that coffee and it's a complete meal. I'm kidding. I don't drink whiskey in the morning anymore.
Whiskey in the morning?! That's lunch time food. ;)
Really good simple idea on how to test those motors look forward to seeing the results. Im curious why are you supposed to indicate off the vise jaws and not the part I guess I didnt know that
If you zero on the fixed jaw, you can machine different parts of different sizes and just leave the zero there. If you zero on the part, and then put in a different size part, you have to re-zero.
@@Clough42 ok that makes sense thanks James see you on the next one
Nice James! Maybe just make a stand for your arbor press with an adjustable shelf for longer jobs. Stay safe and well :)
Hmm... So the part would be below the base for the first press?
@@Clough42 Yes it would be. If you're planning on a bigger press eventually, having a stand would already be on your list. Think how a hydraulic press works with a height adjustable workplate. Instead, you'll have your arbor press mounted on top and an adjustable workplate below it.
@@AJR2208 interesting. I'll think about it.
@@Clough42 While you think of or plan for a stand, think of castor wheels to move it out of the way and storage for push rods, dies, punches, bearings and shafts, bending and forming tooling along with your keyway and other broaches. ATB.
Perhaps you could use the quill of the milling machine to start off that keyway broach? It being 3mm in aluminium I don't think it will hurt anything,
It's no replacement for an actual arbor press of course but it might be better than the bench vice
You probably could have used your drill press as an arbor press to start the broach. At least you didn't start it with a hammer 🤣.
As far as you know. Yeah, I could probably also have done it in the mill. The force required was higher than I was expecting, though, which is the only reason I didn't.
Mind-blowing that an imperial shaft, metric keyway design made it past PDR, much less to production! In the words of AVE, it just never ends.
Have a look at leadshine servos as well (eg. ELDM8075V48HM) in comparison to ClearPath
I think people want to get jacked like you. It's not the coffee, it's the weights. You better remind everyone!
It's weird hearing people refer to me as "jacked." I was always the fat kid, so this is new to me. But you're right. The protein provides the raw ingredients to build muscle. The creatine allows me to recover faster and work harder. But neither does much without training.
Nobody would bat an eye if you told us "so I started by facing off this aluminum with my knuckles, as is tradition"
@@Clough42 You've got your epic squat rack in the background. People should be able to put two and two together.
Watching you work makes me really appreciate my everything metric workshop. My only gripe is that my ELS always starts in imperial and I have to push a button. I don't suppose that version 5 could provide the option to start in metric? 🙂
Chris
Start in Metric and with BA threads perhaps. :-)
I'm not sure if you read new comments on older things but.. here goes. Did one of these have FOC? perhaps I missed it but wouldn't the built in driver compensate for this exact problem? or am I being stupid. Which happens.
So, out of curiosity, is the pulling force vector on the surface of the pulley, or the center of the rope on the pulley surface? Or somewhere between? :-)
I don't exactly know. I suspect there's a neutral plane as the cord bends around the spool. I suspect it isn't exactly in the center of the cord, but probably close. I'm mostly concerned with comparing motors, so I plan to ignore it. If any of the motors come up short of their specifications, it is worth considering that as a potential source of error.
Would a 3/8 shaft with a 1/8 key pulley work? Key would only be undersized .005-.006.
A while back ago I saw someone make a cnc broaching tool :). This tool is percacalating to the top of my tools to make list, any reason you didn't make use of it?
The bore is too small. This bore is 3/8" and that tool has a 1/2" shaft.
What is the balance on those wheels with the set screws in place? I'd imaging an opposite hole would help. Wouldn't want to damage the bearings in the steppers/servo.
They won't be turning fast enough or long enough for it to make any difference.
Excellent video but… where are your safety glasses???
Be sure to made a vid of your chasing of the vibration from the PM. Look forward from your test results....keeping in mind there maybe MANY people changing their Clough ELS'...ugh. I will say torque at low speeds isn't idea currently.
I'm not having any trouble with the 2N.m closed loop stepper from Automation Technologies, as long as I oil the lead screw and don't grab the handwheel. It's *just* enough for what I do on the G0602. That said, I'll feel more comfortable with more margin.
I mix a protein drink with my decaf coffee and some cocoa with just enough honey to knock off the bitterness, every morning.
Edit: I cut a keyway in my toothed pulley with my lathe, worked a treat. Slow, however.
Did you remove the set screw?
Interesting drink ,dose it actually have any health benefits ?. Motors look fun though.
No magic health benefits. It's just a way to get some extra protein in my diet to support my strength training goals. If there's any magic, it's in the barbells.
Watch auctions in your area. Lots of machine shops going under. I seen lots of large arbor presses go for good prices
I acquired mine from a shop that was throwing it away in the dumpster. They didn't even want to mess with selling it for scrap iron. I was at the right place at the right time.
Чекаю наступного відео.
"It should be 80mm"....80.00
The game is too easy for you James, you have to change your caliper for micron model 😜
Yes, remember to turn off the digital LCD reaouit scale for the quill after use. Those batteries really don't last long!
Maybe it is time to hack it to run off some larger battery cells?
I know Robin Renzetti hacked his welding helmet to run off AAs or 18650s or something instead of coincells.
@@prototype3a That's worth trying, but I would like a larger display, the style of a DRO. Maybe a project for James ;-)
Did Quinn like the chuck key?
Due to mumble mumble something something shipping, she just got it yesterday. I'm sure you'll see it soon.
Load cell is what you kneed
Next project automatic coffee maker :-)
Just rotate it with an electric drill and you can get the motors V/rad/sec which is the same as the torque constant in Nm/Amp
will stepper or servo motors turn smoothly when they are not under power
Generally, steppers still cog without power applied. Servos tend to be smoother, though if you spin the clearpath quickly, it "grabs" for lack of a better word. I suspect the induced voltage is exceeding the threshold and conducting through a diode or something.
29:23 - is it possible that I'm the first to notice "shave and a haircut"? What kind of two bit audience do you have around here? ;) :D
(Or is there some other name for that tune, that I failed to search for?)
Anyway, I seem to somehow have missed this video out of the playlist, and one more, so coming back to correct that (after mentioning the series on a comment thread, and noticing two missing red bars when I pulled up the playlist).
"happy little chamfers"?
Were you Bob Ross in a previous life?
I thought something along that same line of thought. LOL...
Last time I needed an arbor press, I closed the chuck and used my drill press.
I... wouldn't reccommend it either :p
(To be fair, I was pressing 50mm length axles into plastic)
I have a 3/4" aluminum bar I have used in the mill spindle for light pressing, like straightening rolled ballscrews. That probably would have worked pretty well, except the stroke there isn't long enough, either. Thinking about it now, I guess I could have set up to press the first half in the mill and the rest in the arbor press. :)
👍👍😎👍👍
I had hoped you were going to take into account the diameter of the cord you'll be using when working out your required spool diameter. So very, very disappointed that all your hard work to keep the math simple will be for nought!
Fun stuff!
What the part number for the clearpath servos.
CPM-SDHP-2321S-EQN. I think I said it was 8N.m. Looking now, it's 800oz.in, which is around 6N.m. And that's complicated because they have peak and continuous ratings. Testing should tell the story.
3/8" shaft with a 3mm key. The proper question to ask is: "What were you smoking, and where can I get some?"
We have many many high speed label application machines that run 24/7 and the steppers units our really limited and have a lot more failures than the servo driven units
This may be because the Servos drivers and motors our a really name brand build compared to the steppers but the steppers our always clumsy and cog at some point in the motion which is over 100 cycles per minute
We found Sanyo Denki stepper motors to be a superior product if the budget only allows steppers
This is my expectation as well. I would definitely use servos for a CNC mill conversion if I were doing it again (which I might).
@@Clough42
I’m my 45 year career with labels we startled with clutch/brakes and when the cost of steppers became better went with them and now servos which our still really expensive
Build a bottle jack press
Regarding the Arbor Press: please build it yourself, I mean, you have a metal shop, it's not that you couldn't do it. And i guess it would make a nice video too.
3mm is really close to 1/8 (3.175mm) so maybe you could file down a 1/8 key on one end to make it 3mm, or use a 1/8 keyyed pulley but then you'd have some serious slop in the mechanism.
Unless you need to use them all at the same time - "next time" (hahaha!) maybe make one pulley and 3 hubs? Similar to how you can buy V groove pulleys with separate hubs so you can mix and match them.
That was my thoughts.
I considered it. I even thought about 3D printing the pulley and machining the hub, but every fastening option I thought of meant more steps (matching tapers, drilling and threading more holes in more setups, CNC programming, etc.) In the end, just turning three seemed the quickest approach.
@@Clough42 - and it's not like they're 3ft across and worth $500 each or anything! In that case it would be worth it to do a hub.
Just guessing here but I get the feelings you are a tad fed up with the trolls...
Is there a reason why I can't find Part 22 of this series?
You didn’t Catch 22? 😉
The resin 3d printer was sort of a stealth part 22, making an encoder mount. I need to add it to the playlist.
The broaching mistake was not using it as an opportunity to upgrade to a Dake #5.
Where is part 22?
If you gave this cofee to an italian, they would through you out of the country
They'd also throw him.
I save my espresso for the afternoon.
Hows 40mm 25% of 1 meter??
I believe he said 1/25, not 25%.
Came for the machine content, stayed for the comments that are trolling the trolls. 🤣
You already made your own 2x72 grinder. Why not design and make your own arbor press? Remember how much pride you took in that belt grinder? C'mon man, do it! You know you want to.
stall torque at different RPMs... hmmm isn't stall always zero RPM? (algo bump)
He is looking for the torque need to stall a motor FROM a certain RPM. So, command the motor to spin at 1500 RPM and then see how much torque it takes to stall it. Repeat for multiple RPMs and you have your RPM to torque curve.
@@ADBBuild Right, more or less I am just quibbling technicalities for fun. The torque required to cause lag would seem to be a better metric as stall is not an instantaneous thing. ie. at 1500 RPM some torque will cause it to slow to 1499 - which has its own torque required to lag the motor to 1498 etc. Since this is a non-linear response curve that depends on motor inertia, open/close loop, driver response time/power, magnetic reluctance etc. the curves might not be the same over the lower RPM domain. That is, I suppose the portion of the torque curve from 500 RPM to 0 when starting st 1500 might be different than the same portion of the curve created when starting at 1000 RPM, but that seems counterintuitive to me. I would expect an effectively identical overlap.
Funny :) I got no angry comment though :( :P