Wow, what a piece of information you got there... In Argentina, we had GE locos that gained the nickname of "Cooper" because of those engines, those were almost the same GE locomotives from the White Pass in Alaska. Now sadly no one is in service, but in my city train shops are a lot of that model sitting arround. What a great video, keep going please!!! Greetings from Argentina!!!
Funny this showed up in my recommendeds...I had heard somewhere that the pony truck design was put forward as the cure for the electric E60CP's instability (truck hunting) at speeds above 90MPH.
Great video. The information about Perry Egbert, and his horrible decision was new to me. One real bad decision killed a company and gave an almost dead competitor the upper hand. You would’ve thought Egbert was a plant!
Very interesting video, I drove ALCO locomotives in South Australia in the 1980s. The early ALCOs had GE electric gear in them, as per your video, the later ones had AEI equipment in them.
Not only did Alco engineering hurt their rep but GM saw a chance to help Alco fail by taking trade=ins (of all kinds) and offering deals on their own products.
The Class 32 was known for its exceptional ride quality. Was a very smooth train. The FBVL-12 was also an extremely aggressive engine. Whilst it was geared high and proved to be very popular on passenger service like “Die Suidwester”, it was also used for freight. According to legend, running solo, very few cars of the era could accelerate with it. The model I showed was the 32 000 and later, 10x 32-200 were ordered from GE. These were fitted with the first incarnation of the GE 7FDL-12.and was the U20C1 model. As you rightly mentioned, these paved the way for the class33 at 2000hp of which 180 in total were ordered. Some of them running until 2011 and currently being rebuilt and hired out by Traxtion….. they are still running!
Alco came out with a 251 which was an excellent locomotive engine which still Powers 50% of the Canadian railroad Fleet. EMT push c567 engine to the 645 version and later the 710 version and suffered problems from pushing the engine to shine too hard and it failed regularly. To have a 5000 horsepower locomotive in the 1950s and 60s who had for diesel locomotive on the head end. 30 years later you had one locomotive doing the work of four. EMD unit reduced itself right out of business. One of the reasons they're Canadian plant is still active is because they do not have to pay for health insurance for the employees as they do in America. General Motors would kill a plant on the American side of the Canadian border because they would have to pay for health insurance where is the Canadian government would take care of the employees on the other side of the river therefore it was cheaper to build cars in Canada than it was in Detroit. There are many reasons that are more subtle as to why railroad purchased certain locomotive. Big companies like EMD and General Electric would give railroad sweetheart deals such as twice as much value for trade-in as locomotive scrap. They would also financed the purchase of locomotives for substandard roads who could not afford to pay cash. There was an excellent article and trains magazine written by a Salesman who used to work for Fairbanks Morse railroads would be interested in buying their locomotives but General Electric or General Motors would give them a much better deal that fairbanks-morse would not be able to match. Chevy gave you more money for a trade-in than if you went to a DeSoto dealer that naturally you would buy from the Chevy dealer it did not mean that the DeSoto was bad. Ashfur world war production board limitations General Motors locomotive engines were required for use in Navy submarines as were fairbanks-morse opposed twin engines as well. There were times EMD would only build one locomotive a month because all of their other engines were conscripted for Navy Duty. The Westinghouse electrical gear that was favored by Baldwin locomotives were very reliable in switcher service but when Baldwin started to make Road locomotives they would suffer failure of electrical component that would lead to failures out on the road. When fairbanks-morse trainmasters had electrical failures from Westinghouse electrical gear they switched over to General Electric instead and Westinghouse exited the market. Things are much different than what surface appearances are.
This explains very well why a GE loco has ALCO pattern trucks But there was another GE product predating the class 32-000 by one year in South Africa, those were the 45 members strong class 31-000, these Bo-Bo locomotives used a V-8 version of the Cooper Bessemer engine having 1200hp. The 2 axle trucks of the 31-000 was also similar to ALCO's own 2 axle trucks. Oddly the Cooper-Bessemer engines were a bit more successful in SA, as these locomotives saw mainline and later shunting duties until almost the turn of the century, and a few remained in private service until at least 2015. But had Alco not waved off the 1-Co-Co-1 design we would have seen a large fleet of Alco locomotives in SA, maybe locally produced like the Australian and Indian counterparts. Btw the Swiss company which improved the design of the FDL series engine was Sulzer.
The trucks that Alco used for its 4 axle units were called the AAR type (Association of American Railroads.) They were built by general steel castings and were also used by GE. These trucks would last till the end of Alco's existence.
It's cool seeing world series locos not in NSWGR or CR liverys it's interesting that the African variant of the 44 class follows the same number sequence just as a SAR 55 class
Thanks for the video. You often mention the GE engine as "FDL-16" which is not correct. The engine type was 7FDL and the sixteen cylinder version would be 7FDL-16.
Interesting video, but a bit disappointing to me in the fact that I was hoping for a review of all the currently offered ALCO PA locomotives. Hopefully the second part will include one of the first and the oldest current production ALCO PA diesel from hobbytown of Boston, which was introduced in 1952 and is still offered. In 1954 they started using helical gears, long before Walthers, and still do...and they're still uncrackable brass! And for your grade, toss 40-50 cars behind the hobbytown and watch it go...just keep your hand on the throttle because it will most definitely pick up speed on the way up.
Many railroad got 20 plus years out of all of the so-called defective locomotive. Your video smacks of Monday morning quarterbacking. The 244 engine became the basis for the Indian Railway system as well as the Russian Railway system. There were steam railroads that diesel eyes that had employee sabotage of brand-new locomotives so steam locomotives would be taken out of storage because engineer's would get paid by weight on drivers and if they screwed up the diesel then they got a steam engine and got paid more. Alco Incorporated many improvements that EMD copied. The maintenance on a 4-stroke Alco diesel locomotive was different than on an EMD diesel 2-stroke locomotive. You had to do valve jobs and adjustments to the engine over time which would add to the maintenance cost but alco's and General Electrics and Baldwin's at Fairbanks Morse did not use as much fuel as the 2-stroke EMD but that was not a concern when we had cheap fuel. Our railroads were in decline in the years after Diesel ization. Many of the first generation diesels outlasted two companies that constructed them because they were not able to stay in business. Just like smaller American car companies could not compete against giant Behemoth like General Motors and Ford and they went out of business did not mean that their car were not good cars. The Penn Central being broke could not afford to buy brand new locomotives instead of rebuilding all of their first generation diesel locomotives they were given sweetheart deals from EMD to trade in all their first generation diesels to be scrapped and EMD we give them brand new diesel locomotives while their track was falling apart and capable of only 10 miles an hour for much of the system due to 20 years of deferred maintenance. Parts are readily available from the various successories of the locomotive other than EMT like Baldwin power provides engines other components to maintain Baldwin locomotives. Alco parts are readily available and all of the electrical gear is available from General Electric. Fairbanks Morse still makes the opposed engines for backup generators supplies for factories hospitals Etc marginal railroad spikes the Milwaukee Road were given deals to trade in minority Builder locomotive and trade for new EMD Road power but as for switchers they kept their fairbanks-morse switchers and service for over 50 years. Many railroads that were entirely Alco powered had no problems with their locomotives as long as they were maintained properly. There were many smaller railroads that were completely Alco powered because EMD with so busy with the larger railroad orders that they could not be bothered. You might say that EMD let them have the scraps of the locomotive Market. New Haven got 20 years service out of the 539 powered Alco DL 109 which was the equivalent of an e unit. When the ALCO Pas had problems with their 16-cylinder engines because of crankshaft issues everybody called damn junk but when EMD experience the same problems with each what each cylinder sd45 nobody said anything about that. The turbocharged would fail on early Alco locomotive but Alco did not build the turbochargers but bought them for General Electric. Before EMD made their own traction Motors they also bought traction motors from General Electric. When pressed with higher horsepower applications Westinghouse electrical railroad gear as such as traction Motors and generators we're not up to the task when fairbanks-morse experience traction motor and other electrical failures from Westinghouse equipped locomotive day switch to General Electric and that induced Westinghouse to abandon the market. With the railroads in general decline unless your company was backed by a big parent company like General Motors or General Electric you had nothing to fall back on. Minority locomotives also suffered because railroads wanted to standardize parts supplies and mechanical procedures and mechanics that were used to General Electric locomotives would neglect service areas on Alco locomotives such as filling up the reservoir of oil to keep the air starter working properly otherwise you would wear out the starter from lack of oil. Because your mechanics would be unfamiliar with the look about if they would skip maintenance issues that would push the locomotive out of service. Erie Lackawanna found out that if you used Alco PA and heavy Freight Service without regearing the locomotive you would burn up the engine. A Hudson or a DeSoto was a great car once they were out of business trying to get parts for them was a nightmare and that would put them off the road. EMD stopped making parts for all of their small switcher locomotives hoping to force railroads in the 70s and 80s to buy their new switcher locomotives and instead railroads merely used older Mainline locomotives like older Jeeps to do switching. Santa Fe Railway converted over 300 F unit cab locomotive intothe CF7 which are all over America working to this day. If you were a prosperous railroad you maintain your diesel locomotives properly. If you were a marginal railroad you would skimp on maintenance to save money in the short-term but it would turn around and bite you in the ass long-term. If you drove your car and did not change the oil appropriately the car would still run but the engine would begin to wear out prematurely. There are many points and issues that you TH-camrs do not use research for and therefore do not consider when you make your presentation. The 244 was a decent engine but in order to get more horsepower instead of pushing it too unreliable levels Alco came
I had heard of the pony truck affair. This is the Wikipedia entry: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Class_32-000 I wondered about the UD18's in Mexico.
The only question is, why the GE FDLs internal dimensions (bore, stroke, crankshaft) are identical to ALCo 244/251? Did CB copy the ALCo 244/251 or the Switzerland company that contracted by GE redesign the internals because the popularity of ALCo, so, if either GE or ALCo prime movers fail, they could share each other parts. But, it is history though and I enjoyed it... It gives us a bit of knowledge for the starting point of GE's success which not everyone know the history of it... And, a clear message is that, Just because you are a modern, stylish, and innovative person, doesn't mean you have to reject and mocks the thing that you considered as obselete. It is a sign that you can't do thinking, feeling, and point of view of someone else.
If anything, the FDL16 was a copy of the CB FBL prime mover. From what I understand, GE had some kind of arrangement with CB to use and otherwise improve appon CB's prime movers once CB cased production.
Meanwhile you show pictures of the ex Santa Fe PA locomotive that they sold to Delaware and Hudson which was primarily an entirely Alco Power Road. The picture you show with the Delaware and Hudson Alco PA that locomotive was 25 years old at the time and serves to Delaware and Hudson reliably until their passenger service was curtailed and the units were sold to Mexico where they were run for another 10 to 20 years. Yourepeat platitudes. I knew an engineer on the Erie Railroad and they decided to see how many cars it would take to burn off the traction Motors on an RS to so they piled on cars until the traction Motors caught fire. There is more here to meet the eye and you should do more research before you do a video. I have personal experience with Alco switcher locomotives because my uncle would take me out to the Long Island Railroad yards cuz he was an executive and we would bump cars and line them up for work on Monday the union told him to stop because they considered me to be a unpaid scab employee taking work away from the Brotherhood so that ended our weekends at the train yard. If these locomotives were as bad as what you say they would not be in service today and many are working and they are 70-plus years old if they were so bad they would not be lasting so long and they would not be in service today.
As an South African, this was great. Thanks
WOW this is quite the revelation and historically important information.Unbelievable!
thanks for a vrey intresting fact video about alcos products .
keep up the good work.
👍👍👍👍🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪
Thanks!
This is a very interesting piece of history. Thank you for making this video.
Wow, what a piece of information you got there...
In Argentina, we had GE locos that gained the nickname of "Cooper" because of those engines, those were almost the same GE locomotives from the White Pass in Alaska.
Now sadly no one is in service, but in my city train shops are a lot of that model sitting arround.
What a great video, keep going please!!!
Greetings from Argentina!!!
Funny this showed up in my recommendeds...I had heard somewhere that the pony truck design was put forward as the cure for the electric E60CP's instability (truck hunting) at speeds above 90MPH.
Great video. The information about Perry Egbert, and his horrible decision was new to me. One real bad decision killed a company and gave an almost dead competitor the upper hand. You would’ve thought Egbert was a plant!
No an eggplant is smarter than Egbert was
To think eggbrain didnt know they were diesels
Thanks for shari’g the story! I could never seen this coming
Your welcome!
VERY interesting! Who knew that this one decision caused the success of GE and the downfall of ALCO!
Great vídeo and good to see how many things happend south the border ❤
Dont mess with my alco s,i love those heavy chain smokin mothers to this day
Very interesting video, I drove ALCO locomotives in South Australia in the 1980s. The early ALCOs had GE electric gear in them, as per your video, the later ones had AEI equipment in them.
This is very interesting...
Not only did Alco engineering hurt their rep but GM saw a chance to help Alco fail by taking trade=ins (of all kinds) and offering deals on their own products.
Most excellent video and thoroughly researched. Your hard work was worth it!
The Milwaukee road 1 of the great 1s in my book,next erie lawawanna, Rock Island
These days in South Africa.........land grabbers have taken over railway tracks in many places, and built homes on them.
The Class 32 was known for its exceptional ride quality. Was a very smooth train. The FBVL-12 was also an extremely aggressive engine. Whilst it was geared high and proved to be very popular on passenger service like “Die Suidwester”, it was also used for freight. According to legend, running solo, very few cars of the era could accelerate with it.
The model I showed was the 32 000 and later, 10x 32-200 were ordered from GE. These were fitted with the first incarnation of the GE 7FDL-12.and was the U20C1 model.
As you rightly mentioned, these paved the way for the class33 at 2000hp of which 180 in total were ordered. Some of them running until 2011 and currently being rebuilt and hired out by Traxtion….. they are still running!
Alco came out with a 251 which was an excellent locomotive engine which still Powers 50% of the Canadian railroad Fleet. EMT push c567 engine to the 645 version and later the 710 version and suffered problems from pushing the engine to shine too hard and it failed regularly. To have a 5000 horsepower locomotive in the 1950s and 60s who had for diesel locomotive on the head end. 30 years later you had one locomotive doing the work of four. EMD unit reduced itself right out of business. One of the reasons they're Canadian plant is still active is because they do not have to pay for health insurance for the employees as they do in America. General Motors would kill a plant on the American side of the Canadian border because they would have to pay for health insurance where is the Canadian government would take care of the employees on the other side of the river therefore it was cheaper to build cars in Canada than it was in Detroit. There are many reasons that are more subtle as to why railroad purchased certain locomotive. Big companies like EMD and General Electric would give railroad sweetheart deals such as twice as much value for trade-in as locomotive scrap. They would also financed the purchase of locomotives for substandard roads who could not afford to pay cash. There was an excellent article and trains magazine written by a Salesman who used to work for Fairbanks Morse railroads would be interested in buying their locomotives but General Electric or General Motors would give them a much better deal that fairbanks-morse would not be able to match. Chevy gave you more money for a trade-in than if you went to a DeSoto dealer that naturally you would buy from the Chevy dealer it did not mean that the DeSoto was bad. Ashfur world war production board limitations General Motors locomotive engines were required for use in Navy submarines as were fairbanks-morse opposed twin engines as well. There were times EMD would only build one locomotive a month because all of their other engines were conscripted for Navy Duty. The Westinghouse electrical gear that was favored by Baldwin locomotives were very reliable in switcher service but when Baldwin started to make Road locomotives they would suffer failure of electrical component that would lead to failures out on the road. When fairbanks-morse trainmasters had electrical failures from Westinghouse electrical gear they switched over to General Electric instead and Westinghouse exited the market. Things are much different than what surface appearances are.
So basically Alco’s refusal to build to customer specs saved GE’s locomotive business.
This explains very well why a GE loco has ALCO pattern trucks
But there was another GE product predating the class 32-000 by one year in South Africa, those were the 45 members strong class 31-000, these Bo-Bo locomotives used a V-8 version of the Cooper Bessemer engine having 1200hp.
The 2 axle trucks of the 31-000 was also similar to ALCO's own 2 axle trucks.
Oddly the Cooper-Bessemer engines were a bit more successful in SA, as these locomotives saw mainline and later shunting duties until almost the turn of the century, and a few remained in private service until at least 2015.
But had Alco not waved off the 1-Co-Co-1 design we would have seen a large fleet of Alco locomotives in SA, maybe locally produced like the Australian and Indian counterparts.
Btw the Swiss company which improved the design of the FDL series engine was Sulzer.
And Sulzer knew what they were doing.
The trucks that Alco used for its 4 axle units were called the AAR type (Association of American Railroads.) They were built by general steel castings and were also used by GE. These trucks would last till the end of Alco's existence.
It's cool seeing world series locos not in NSWGR or CR liverys it's interesting that the African variant of the 44 class follows the same number sequence just as a SAR 55 class
The wheels on the front and rear of a Steam Locomotive are called Pilot and Trolley Wheels respectively.
No they are not.
Really? Don't think so...
Pilot - maybe, trolley - I don't think so.
Thanks for the video. You often mention the GE engine as "FDL-16" which is not correct. The engine type was 7FDL and the sixteen cylinder version would be 7FDL-16.
14:37 wait IS THAT A MÁVAG DMU ON THE LEFT?
Interesting video, but a bit disappointing to me in the fact that I was hoping for a review of all the currently offered ALCO PA locomotives. Hopefully the second part will include one of the first and the oldest current production ALCO PA diesel from hobbytown of Boston, which was introduced in 1952 and is still offered. In 1954 they started using helical gears, long before Walthers, and still do...and they're still uncrackable brass! And for your grade, toss 40-50 cars behind the hobbytown and watch it go...just keep your hand on the throttle because it will most definitely pick up speed on the way up.
Its right here:
th-cam.com/video/2IwWtCgPFu0/w-d-xo.html
Many railroad got 20 plus years out of all of the so-called defective locomotive. Your video smacks of Monday morning quarterbacking. The 244 engine became the basis for the Indian Railway system as well as the Russian Railway system. There were steam railroads that diesel eyes that had employee sabotage of brand-new locomotives so steam locomotives would be taken out of storage because engineer's would get paid by weight on drivers and if they screwed up the diesel then they got a steam engine and got paid more. Alco Incorporated many improvements that EMD copied. The maintenance on a 4-stroke Alco diesel locomotive was different than on an EMD diesel 2-stroke locomotive. You had to do valve jobs and adjustments to the engine over time which would add to the maintenance cost but alco's and General Electrics and Baldwin's at Fairbanks Morse did not use as much fuel as the 2-stroke EMD but that was not a concern when we had cheap fuel. Our railroads were in decline in the years after Diesel ization. Many of the first generation diesels outlasted two companies that constructed them because they were not able to stay in business. Just like smaller American car companies could not compete against giant Behemoth like General Motors and Ford and they went out of business did not mean that their car were not good cars. The Penn Central being broke could not afford to buy brand new locomotives instead of rebuilding all of their first generation diesel locomotives they were given sweetheart deals from EMD to trade in all their first generation diesels to be scrapped and EMD we give them brand new diesel locomotives while their track was falling apart and capable of only 10 miles an hour for much of the system due to 20 years of deferred maintenance. Parts are readily available from the various successories of the locomotive other than EMT like Baldwin power provides engines other components to maintain Baldwin locomotives. Alco parts are readily available and all of the electrical gear is available from General Electric. Fairbanks Morse still makes the opposed engines for backup generators supplies for factories hospitals Etc marginal railroad spikes the Milwaukee Road were given deals to trade in minority Builder locomotive and trade for new EMD Road power but as for switchers they kept their fairbanks-morse switchers and service for over 50 years. Many railroads that were entirely Alco powered had no problems with their locomotives as long as they were maintained properly. There were many smaller railroads that were completely Alco powered because EMD with so busy with the larger railroad orders that they could not be bothered. You might say that EMD let them have the scraps of the locomotive Market. New Haven got 20 years service out of the 539 powered Alco DL 109 which was the equivalent of an e unit. When the ALCO Pas had problems with their 16-cylinder engines because of crankshaft issues everybody called damn junk but when EMD experience the same problems with each what each cylinder sd45 nobody said anything about that. The turbocharged would fail on early Alco locomotive but Alco did not build the turbochargers but bought them for General Electric. Before EMD made their own traction Motors they also bought traction motors from General Electric. When pressed with higher horsepower applications Westinghouse electrical railroad gear as such as traction Motors and generators we're not up to the task when fairbanks-morse experience traction motor and other electrical failures from Westinghouse equipped locomotive day switch to General Electric and that induced Westinghouse to abandon the market. With the railroads in general decline unless your company was backed by a big parent company like General Motors or General Electric you had nothing to fall back on. Minority locomotives also suffered because railroads wanted to standardize parts supplies and mechanical procedures and mechanics that were used to General Electric locomotives would neglect service areas on Alco locomotives such as filling up the reservoir of oil to keep the air starter working properly otherwise you would wear out the starter from lack of oil. Because your mechanics would be unfamiliar with the look about if they would skip maintenance issues that would push the locomotive out of service. Erie Lackawanna found out that if you used Alco PA and heavy Freight Service without regearing the locomotive you would burn up the engine. A Hudson or a DeSoto was a great car once they were out of business trying to get parts for them was a nightmare and that would put them off the road. EMD stopped making parts for all of their small switcher locomotives hoping to force railroads in the 70s and 80s to buy their new switcher locomotives and instead railroads merely used older Mainline locomotives like older Jeeps to do switching. Santa Fe Railway converted over 300 F unit cab locomotive intothe CF7 which are all over America working to this day. If you were a prosperous railroad you maintain your diesel locomotives properly. If you were a marginal railroad you would skimp on maintenance to save money in the short-term but it would turn around and bite you in the ass long-term. If you drove your car and did not change the oil appropriately the car would still run but the engine would begin to wear out prematurely. There are many points and issues that you TH-camrs do not use research for and therefore do not consider when you make your presentation. The 244 was a decent engine but in order to get more horsepower instead of pushing it too unreliable levels Alco came
I love alco locomotives but man they had a bad run of luck in the diesel era
Not much bad luck, Alco's problems had more to do with bad decisions.
Thanks for watching!
I had heard of the pony truck affair.
This is the Wikipedia entry: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Class_32-000
I wondered about the UD18's in Mexico.
The only question is, why the GE FDLs internal dimensions (bore, stroke, crankshaft) are identical to ALCo 244/251?
Did CB copy the ALCo 244/251 or the Switzerland company that contracted by GE redesign the internals because the popularity of ALCo, so, if either GE or ALCo prime movers fail, they could share each other parts.
But, it is history though and I enjoyed it...
It gives us a bit of knowledge for the starting point of GE's success which not everyone know the history of it...
And, a clear message is that, Just because you are a modern, stylish, and innovative person, doesn't mean you have to reject and mocks the thing that you considered as obselete. It is a sign that you can't do thinking, feeling, and point of view of someone else.
If anything, the FDL16 was a copy of the CB FBL prime mover. From what I understand, GE had some kind of arrangement with CB to use and otherwise improve appon CB's prime movers once CB cased production.
0:03 Aha! Alco's biggest mistake was using HO scale prime movers
Love me some ALCO's. But they did make some poor decisions along the way.
It's as if these companies were trying to lose money, customers, and prestige
That was Alco during the latter Egbert years.
The irony , mlw made a1a 'ed locos
Love the content but that constant mic bumping makes me think there's someone outside.
🚂🚃🚃🚃🚃🚃👍
Why don't you find a better picture of a prime mover than that toy plastic model?
Was ALCO junk or not junk?
...."VEGA"? MORE LIKE "THE PINTO"!
Meanwhile you show pictures of the ex Santa Fe PA locomotive that they sold to Delaware and Hudson which was primarily an entirely Alco Power Road. The picture you show with the Delaware and Hudson Alco PA that locomotive was 25 years old at the time and serves to Delaware and Hudson reliably until their passenger service was curtailed and the units were sold to Mexico where they were run for another 10 to 20 years. Yourepeat platitudes. I knew an engineer on the Erie Railroad and they decided to see how many cars it would take to burn off the traction Motors on an RS to so they piled on cars until the traction Motors caught fire. There is more here to meet the eye and you should do more research before you do a video. I have personal experience with Alco switcher locomotives because my uncle would take me out to the Long Island Railroad yards cuz he was an executive and we would bump cars and line them up for work on Monday the union told him to stop because they considered me to be a unpaid scab employee taking work away from the Brotherhood so that ended our weekends at the train yard. If these locomotives were as bad as what you say they would not be in service today and many are working and they are 70-plus years old if they were so bad they would not be lasting so long and they would not be in service today.