@@B4rry16 this video might seem well thought out, but really he has nobody challenging his “analysis” so what he’s saying might sound smart but it’s really all garbage, how can you have curry and KD above Tim Duncan all time? There’s literally no argument for it
“people use platforms that didn’t even exist the last time he wasn’t an elite player to say he’s overrated” is an such an insane line and i didn’t even think of it that way until you said it, lebron is crazy lmao
@@AT3toxic So why doesn't he argue with Von Allen Sports and rejects everyone's choice to argue with them or not. That is ignorance my friend not proof
@@1NumeroUno well to be fair he did get his 2 rings when MJ retired. That was absolutely prime Jordan. Hakeem could have easily finished his career without a ring if Jordan doesn’t retire
@@1NumeroUno they only played twice a season. And it’s the regular season at that. But I’m not saying the bulls for sure would have won dude. It’s all hypothetical Hakeem has 2 rings and that’s that. It’s cool to think about if Jordan doesn’t retire at his peak tho. It’s hard to imagine anyone on the rockets stopping Jordan in a 7 game series in the nba finals
@@1NumeroUno nobody said Hakeem was lucky?? All I said was Hakeem got his 2 rings when Jordan retired. and that’s a FACT. Hakeem was unstoppable. Jordan was unstoppable. Man it would have been fun
@@1NumeroUno Hakeem did outplay Shaq in the 95 finals, but since you like to post the stats when player's teams face off here is Hakeem vs Shaq when their teams went head to head for their careers. Don't give me the excuse that Hakeem was older for some of this, because Shaq was young for some of it as well. Don't give me the "right under the basket" or tell me you don't care for Shaq's FG% either because unless it's a 3 a FG made is factually 2 points. A mid range shot is not worth more than a make right at the rim. This is their head to head overall no cherry picking specific games: Reg Season (20 games) Shaq: 22 PTS / 54.4 FG% / 12 REB / 4 AST / 1 STL / 2 BLK Hakeem: 18 PTS / 44.7 FG% / 9 REB / 3 AST / 1 STL / 2 BLK *Shaq + 4 PTS, + 9.7,FG% + 3 REB, + 1 AST Single Game Highs for each during this stretch: Shaq: 34 PTS / FG% 70 / 20 REB / 8 AST / 2 STL / 6 BLK Hakeem: 31 PTS / 64.7 FG% /15 REB / 9 AST / 5 STL / 6 BLK Playoffs (8 games) Shaq: 29 PTS / 55.6% / 11 REB / 5 AST / 0.5 STL / 3 BLK Hakeem: 23 PTS / 46.5% / 9 REB / 3 AST / 2 STL / 1 BLK *SHAQ + 6 PTS. + 9.1 FG%, + 2 REB, + 2 AST, + 2 BLK *HAKEEM + 1.5 STL Single Game Highs for each during this stretch: Shaq: 37 PTS / 64.7 FG% / 16 REB / 9 AST / 2 STL / 5 BLK Hakeem: 35 PTS / 76.9 FG% / 15 REB / 7 AST / 3 STL / 4 STL Remember, Wilt "blasted" Russell because of stats, so per your logic the overall stats favor Shaq when they went head to head. Shaq blasted Hakeem more than Hakeem blasted him. Make excuses about Shaq's size all day here, yet you did not give Russell a pass for being smaller than Wilt. I am just applying your logic to this subject here.
I appreciate his point about bigs not being able to initiate the offense. It's what makes players like Durant, Giannnis, and Joker so valuable. They keep the size advantage and the ability to shoot over anyone while still having the ball in there hands to start the offense.
I know KD is basically a 7 footer but he’s far from a big. He’s literally a wing player because of his size+frame. Can’t really bunch him up with Giannis and Jokic as being a big when KD is likely the easiest 7footer that any big can back down.
KD is hardly a big. He might be near 7 foot, but he's too skinny to be considered a big. LeBron is way bigger than KD despite both playing the same position.
Facts. It all depends on which on you value more but they’re 1&2 all time. Lebron solidified himself as a top 2 player nothing below that. Personally it’s more impressive that Lebron has been so consistent for this long on top of being the most complete player ever all in the most talented era. So he’s my goat
Yh people don’t get than by his second year in the league he went to the finals and beat the showtime lakers in 5 and lost to the best Celtics in 6. If he had Ralph Sampson all his career he could easy have more than 2 championship
@@bobjones3986 Tim was more dominant than bron, he sacrificed stats for the betterment of the team, something bron never did. That’s why Tim won 4 rings in 10 years and bron barely winning 4 in 17. When has bron ever recorded a quadrupole double like Duncan? Why did Duncan never miss the playoffs like bron has?
I respect your list, and how you included Hakeem, KD and Curry but I believe that Tim Duncan is a top 5 all time because of the how he kept the spurs in playoff contention for his whole career, his finals mvp as a somophore and how he basically made Greg Poppovich great
@@tpsamhe criticized durant and curry a lot but they transcended the game so much more than Bird. Yes it was very fun watching Celtics vs. Lakers but at the same time there were only a couple other good teams
@@elijahrincon3586 Kobe was WAYYY overrated he was ok at best in the playoffs, a complete ball hog, an overrated shooter, and the best aspect of his game was scoring and he isn’t even a top 5 scorer all time shaqs Close but had to short of a prime to be better than steph and KD
I understand why some people can get upset at seeing KD and Steph being ranked so high, but keep in mind that both of this guys had to go against LeBron, and was able to dominate at certain rare points in this LeBron era. The reason we rank LeBron so high is also due to the level of competition so we also have to his competition the same respect.
I agree with almost everything on this list and I think MJ vs LeBron at this point is just based on opinion and what stats you think are most important. I also like how you had KD and Curry in the top 10 because whether people want to admit it or not, this era is so much harder than the 60s,70s,80s and people tend to overrate old players just because they are old players.
You can make anything sound good if you only say positive points to make your arguments sound good for example he talked about Jordan competition in the finals but he didn’t talk about the road to the finals where Mj and Kobe faced more 50+ wins teams then Lebron have even though he’s played longer
Also imagine if Jordan just left and joined the rockets back in the day like of course they would win every year who was Miami suppose to lose to when Lebron joined them realistically?? Nobody
The thing is MJ's finals opponents were considered weak (for his standards) apart from maybe Phoenix or the Supersonics. But the road to getting each of those finals might've been tougher matchups overall. Also the Jazz were healthy coming into the finals in 1997 and 1998 against MJ with the flu and the year after Scottie being injured, so I wouldn't say the Bulls had 'easy' finals matchups to start with.
The Eastern conference was considered tougher in Jordan era compared to lebrons Era where the Eastern conference was weak was even nicknamed the “Leastern Conference”
I like lebron more than MJ but MJ has the most interesting stat i’ve seen. Jxmyhighroller made a vid on this but there was a crazy stat someone noticed about MJ. He went 9 straight years without losing 3 games in a row. Beside his own teammates no other player has come close. Goes to show how much this man despised losing,
@@moneyiscool29 how the fuck did the east suck?? The Celtics big 3? The raptors were young but derozan has proved this yesr he always been elite the raptors just couldn’t overcome lebron which is very u understandable and an elite Paul George in a scrappy packers team like dude that’s such a weak ass excuse
I don’t agree with some of it, but I’m not nearly as knowledgable as you or anybody else so I can’t defend myself outside the realm of personal preference. Anyways, you’re lists make me think, make me wonder, and sometimes, convince me. Awesome vid! Lol, still snuck in a Brady insult. Love it.
Some of the things were manipulated though he left out parts like MJ team before pippen MJs best statistical seasons and playoff runs while adding it in for lebron and other players when it suited lebron or other players best best, not to mention leaving out defense when it suited the player he wanted to rank high and adding the fact they were poor defensively for instance magic johnson being low because of his sub-par defense when he was trying to defend his position. There was very little consistency when arguing his positions sometimes longevity was more important sometimes accolades and sometimes versitility even though that means nothing it is what you do with that versitility.
Thinking Basketball's video on Lebron at 37 explains a lot of his continued success. I think, just like MJ, Bron came into the league at the right time. Only one year in the "Deadball Era" and the game gets increasingly easier offensively. For MJ, it's right at the time the media was looking for an athlete in a team sport to build a story around, and MJ's flair was the best selling point. Timing is everything!
Yes but the difference is Bron came into a team that couldn't care less. MJ had a team willing to give him the pieces necessary to win. You cannot deny that.
@@thesharinganknight9859 that's tough, but Wade, Kyrie and AD are his best teammates. As far as consistency was concerned, they all fell apart at the wrong time. Wade was moving past his prime. Not done yet, but it was around '15/'16 that he started getting moved around to different teams. Kyrie is Kyrie. Doesn't need much explanation. And AD fell apart right at the end of Bron's prime, which just shrank his window of opportunity. Jordan didn't have the same issues with his teammates, so he had an easier path. Both are still great and can't be lower than 1/2
@@krosses7156 then you can be the odd one out putting hakeem in your top 3 or whatever then. take 10 seconds to look at the guys above him and you'll know why they are above hakeem
Tim Duncan needs to be higher. He did it on both sides of the ball and was a phenomenal leader. 5 rings 3FMVP 2 MVP ROY 15X AS 15X All NBA 15X All Defense. Not a chance in hell this guy is outside the top 10. Averaged 15-9 in the 2014 playoffs at 37! years old and won the championship. He has a winning percentage of 72% over his entire career!! Made the playoffs every single year. Arguably one of the best careers ever, while doing it in the modern NBA. You state he would be higher if he had a more "dominate peak" which you only talked about his scoring and there is a lot more to basketball than that.
Good list. Did wilt a little dirty though. It’s impossible to say how he’d do today, but I like to believe he would be a top 2-3 player. Winning finals MVP his final season too.
my biggest problem is that as a knicks fan don't give me hate here that bill russel isn't on here and wilt is I get that wilts numbers may be better but nobody has dominated basketball like bill russel ever
Agreed with above^ I can't imagine the effort time and talent that goes into producing narrating and editing this stuff but as funny as Barry trolls are on Twitter his talent in this regard really deserves more mass appeal. Like, nationally.. but, for better or worse.. his reputation proceeds him.
@@JServo I've documented how far every one of Brady's completed passes traveled in all of his SBs and other stuff like that and it takes forever. Barry does that all the time for many different players and for different sports. It's insane.
My top ten is 1. MJ 2. Bron 3. Kareem 4. Magic 5. Larry 6. Wilt 7. Kobe 8. Timmy 9. Shaq 10. Hakeem 11. Steph 12. KD Basically the ppl he mentioned re arranged
Duncan slander: all around on offense, one of the best defenders ever, won 70% of his games, never missed the playoffs for damn near 20 years. Dude is a winner
Agreed, Duncan has many incredible accomplishments not to mention the level of competition he faced regularly, with teammates that are nowhere near as great as other teammates that top 10-12 greats played with, while also playing in one of the slowest paced decades in NBA history on one of the slowest paced teams as well and remaining a consistent threat on both defense and offense for nearly 20 years
Duncan's peak productivity is lowered by his team being the slowest paced in the league. Per possession, he's actually right there with a lot of the other all-time great bigs. He's also better than Kobe and should be above Shaq, KD, Curry, and probably Hakeem. I always argue for Hakeem being in the top 10, which isn't the most popular opinion in itself, but top 4 is just too high. How he's above Magic is just insane. Sorry, but actually accomplishing things matters more than not being the reason you didn't accomplish something. Offensively Magic had a better career FG% as a PG than Hakeem did as a C and it's not because all he did was get lay ups and dunks. People talk like Magic was Ben Simmons or something. He was a career 85% FT shooter who in his last 3 seasons started shooting 3's more regularly and shot them respectfully for the time. Everyone is so quick to insist Mike would have developed a 3 in the modern game, but seem to think that Magic wouldn't have despite the fact he was actually a very good shooter (albeit with an awful looking form). Don't even get me started on the advanced stats you love to throw out there when they're in your favor. Magic buries Hakeem in those. And if you can't even find a spot for Bill Russell and have Tim Duncan outside the top-10 I just don't want to hear about defense from you. Steph and KD are way too high.
How is duncan out of top 10 and hakeem was a better defender and scorer also post game and mid range and peak, probably one of the best playoff runs in history, has the edge in longveity. The only thing magic was better at then hakeem was obviously passing
I was gonna argue Wilt's ranking but you bring up good points about the pace of play and him playing worse in the playoffs, those are valid criticisms, I just hate when people knock him cause of his competition, like he should be penalized for being a physical and athletic freak. It's not his fault that there were no other guys walking the Earth at that time that had his combination of size, strength and athleticism. Extreme example but lets say there was some 8ft freak that came into the league today and put up Wilt like stats for 15 years. Should we downplay it or penalize him just cause he is physically more dominant than everybody else? I don't think so.
I think you have to consider the average talent level of the entire league of each era. Sports in general have many more highly talented players now than back in Wilt’s prime. As another extreme example, there was a time in football when they thought an onside kick could be a better offensive tool than the forward pass. Players are just better and coaches are just smarter now, and would likely (although not definitely) compete with Wilt better than the players back then, if for no other reason than better strategy. He’s a wonderful player to watch, though, and my grandmother said he was even more wonderful in bed.
@@Rekcha well no one in the modern Era is a better athletic then wilt so idk why the Era argument even matters. Also he had to play a HOF center 60 times a year that's something no one does today
@@Rekcha Bill Russell, John Havlicek, Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, Bob Pettit, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Walt Bellamy, Kareem, and Willis Reed, so yeah, a bunch of talentless nobodies. You can only dominate the competition ahead of you, what more can you expect?
@@Rekcha noope... the modern players would be restricted by the rules of that era, a lot of the things that make them great weren't even around back then. Your whole people are smarter today is nonsense.
@@universalplayz7496 stop believing myths wilt himself started. There's no footage of him demonstrating athletic ability beyond the athletic big men in the games history and today
Something that’s a major pet peeve of mine when it comes to all time ranking discussions is how people will discredit the 60s and 70s to undermine wilt, bill and Kareem but won’t acknowledge just how watered down the 90s were with talent especially in comparison to the 2000s onward. I get it, the media, the NBA and the fans loved and adored MJ be genuinely speaking it is impossible to have an actual objective discussion about the man with anyone who likes him.
@@thedude7596 Yeah, but it was a more defensive era that didn't have the same spacing and rules favoring offensive players that you see today. Prime Jordan would feast on today's spacing.
90s was a slow paced defensive era, not many players stood out. Had MJ not existed, so many more teams would've won chips. He literally is so much better than everyone around him it makes us question his entire era. But not in a Wilt way because the major reason he was so much better is because his opposition were getting ready to clock in at the construction site in an hour.
@@MovieGuy666 and in that decade MJ had better stats , was more athletic and better defensively but didn't have a good enough team to win so you're making the argument for MJ
"Bill Russell overrated" time to educate casuals on NBA history: The Celtics the year before Russell arrived (55/56): Lost E. Div. Semis. Red was coach, and they had Cousy + Sharman + McCauley + Risen. The Celtics the 1st year Russell arrived (56/57): They lose McCauley, Defensive rating improves by 7.7, and they win the finals. The Celtics had never won a title or made a finals prior to this. The Celtics the 2nd year with Russell (57/58): Make the finals, Russell gets hurt in game 3 of the finals, and the Celtics lose the finals. RIsen's last year. Sam Jones first year. (58 to 66) The Celtics 8 peat. Throughout this time Sharman leaves and they keep winning. Havlicek yet to arrive for some of these titles, and Cousy gone for some of them and they still kept winning. Red retires as coach in 66. The Celtics 11th year with Russell (66/67): They Lost E. Div. Finals. This marks the only playoff series in Russell's NBA career that his team lost with him healthy for the full series. The Celtics win the title Russell’s last 2 years and Red was no longer the coach. The first year after Russell retires. (68/69): Their defensive rating gets worse by 9.8 and they miss the playoffs. *Took the Celtics 5 years after Russell to make and win another finals. Celtics with Russell titles won without notable pieces: Without Jones: 1 title Without Sharman: 7 titles Without Cousy: 5 titles Without Risen: 9 titles Without Havlicek: 6 titles Without Heinsohn: 3 titles Without coach Red: 2 titles (Russell was actually the coach for these while being a player) The Celtics were not champions before Russell, were as soon as he arrived, and fell off immediately after Russell left. This was also with a lot of notables coming and going. Jones and Red were the only most of career major pieces with Russell and the Russell lead Celtics still managed titles without them in the small windows without them. None of these notables won a title or made a finals in Boston without Russell being with them. The Celtics employed more of an equal opportunity offense without having 1 player taking a massive amount of shots or having high PPG. Regardless if offensive talents came or left they kept racking up rings with Russell anchoring the defense and facilitating the fast break, being a secondary coach to Red on the floor, and then for the last 2 rings being the actual coach. Russell's FG% was actually a little over average relative to his era, and he is arguably the greatest defender ever and greatest leader ever + being a MT. Rushmore rebounder. He was just not a dominant scorer over his career, but him being that would not have made his team better, and he actually lead his team in the finals 3 times in scoring when they needed it.
To add on, the NBA 25th Anniversary Team was selected by a panel consisting of Red Auerbach, Ned Irish, Eddie Gottlieb, Haskell Cohen, Danny Biasone, Lester Harrison, Fred Zollner, Ben Kerner, Fred Schaus, and Bob Feerick. Then the 25 nominees were voted on by the players who had been named 1st Team All-NBA up to that point. Bill Russell was the only unanimous selection to the team, and only players who had completed their careers and had been named All-NBA at least once were eligible. Russell was also selected as the greatest player on the NBA 35th Anniversary Team.
How is Duncan #12 by all of these criteria? He is arguably the top of longevity (2nd most all NBA teams + most all defensive teams ever. 15 each for a combined 30 which is the highest All NBA + All Def combo ever). His competition level was great: Shaq, KG, Dirk, Kobe, LeBron, KD. Playoff performance try being the Spurs best player for 4 championship runs (99. 03, 05. 07). His 03 playoff run was one of the biggest carry jobs of all time. Peak is the only area where I could see the case for not top 10. The rest he is easily top 10. Also, lol at Curry being above Bird.
@@AJ-sl7be yes. Duncan is 2-1 against him in the finals (should be 3-0), more chips, defensive teams, better leader, teammate, could play in any system, won a chip in each decade, bron is nowhere near Duncan plz stop
I never comment and I think MJ is the GOAT but damn dude great stuff. Best all time great list and commentary I’ve ever heard. I also like Tom Brady but it’s hard to argue such great points had me rethinking the whole MJ/Lebron debate.
It’s funny how lebron is still extending his career and now has more points than anyone ever in the nba while still being overrated and he didn’t even take a 2 year baseball break.
@@c14nonyt85bro longevity stats are bs its a testament to ur greatness and deffo a feat but if you really favour longevity as much as u bron fans do then you believe jason terry>larry bird
I mostly agree with this list, I only disagree about these, Tim Duncan, Wilt and Possibky Kobe. Here are my reasons Tim Duncan: He should be higher according to ur criteria. Longevity: Check. Playoff Performance: Check. Team Success: Check. Peak: Check-ish. Wilt: I don’t think he should be listed on any list because of the unknown. We make so much assumptions about him... He played in a very old era which there wasn’t many social medias and some stats weren’t recorded. So it’s hard to rank him. Kobe: I think he can be number 11. The stats doesn’t favor Kobe at all. He didn’t have a long career because of his Achilles injury. I might argue he should be higher than Shaq. Also, not related but this is my take on “ifs” in ranking players. What if’s should be off the conversation because it’s all about bias and it would be extremely hard to rank. Like if ur a Jordan fan you would probably say what IF he didn’t retire for baseball look at how many rings he would have and they would also say what IF he got the modern medicine and treatment as today. And if you’re a Lebron fan you would be like What IF the warriors didn’t exist? What if Lebron got the teammates Jordan had? See this is the problem, if ur a Jordan fan you would only bring up what if’s about Jordan and if ur a Lebron fan you would only bring up what IFS about Lebron to make the argument whose better.
Great list. A few things I would change: Tim Duncan is at least one behind or above Curry. Both had great team success and are considered great teammates. Curry is a better offensive player but Duncan is one of the best defenders ever. I would completely remove Durant. His career would be similar to Karl Malone's if he never joined the Warriors. He is extremely talented but it's proven that he cannot lead a team to a championship without another Top 10 All-Timer on his team. I think Bill Russell should be on the list. Yes, he played on a stacked team, but he was clearly the best player. 11 championships in 13 years is unbelievable, and if they gave out DPOY then he would have at least 10, which is insane. Yes, there were only like 8 teams, but it can be argued Russell was a more dominant player than Wilt. Honorable Mention: Jerry West. He had the worst streak of luck in NBA championship history besides maybe LeBron. He put up insane stats and stepped up in the playoffs, and until Wilt joined the Lakers, he had no great big man in a league and style that required a great one. There was also no 3 point line, and he still averaged 30+ in the Finals while being 6'4 and WHITE. His game would translate to any era, and he is probably the only player from that era that could have had a better career if he came along later.
Go watch Barry's "All-Time Most Overrated NBA Players" and you'll see why Russell isn't on here - and I 100% agree with him on why Russell doesn't belong
Kinda sad Dr. J didn't make the list, and I was hoping so when he had mentioned the ABA stealing the NBA's talent, which is true, but it's fine. Though the 3x Champion, 4x MVP (3 of them being in a row), 2x Finals MVP, 3x Scoring Champion, as well as one of the best wing defenders of all-time. Not to mention how good he was in the playoffs as well as the Finals. He definitely does deserve some recognition.
I honestly think the number one spot is a toss between Lebron and Jordan, just a matter of preference. Prime Seasons The two are so close( REALLY CLOSE) during their best years (age23-29 seasons) advanced stats wise. Lebron(30.1 PER, .283 WS/48) vs MJ (30.4 PER , .285 WS/48) The difference is so minimal I’d say it’s a tie. Playoff Success Although LeBrons 10 finals appearances is crazy, I think MJs 6-0 finals record gives him the edge in terms of playoff success. Regular Season Accolades This can be a little bit misleading, as I think accolades involves narrative and luck factor, rather than just pure on the court contributions of a player. It’s close, but I’d still take Jordan in this one because he has one more MVP and a DPOY. (I do believe LeBron should have won at least one more MVP and a DPOY in 2013) Longevity LeBron definitely gets an edge in this department.
I mean he literally gave you his criteria though. Based on that, it makes sense. I personally have a dude with 5 rings way higher but, as I said, Timmy is where he is on this list because that's the criteria.
@@rlmalonzo1184 Hakeem is #11 on my list He is not top 10 greatest ever, he is 11-15 range like KD & Steph. You can’t just look at stats (Wilt, Oscar) or just look at accolades (Duncan, B. Russell) when making a GOAT list. You definitely can’t use your feelings either (Kobe, LeBron, KD) Stats, Accolades, Eye Test, Era played, & Longevity come into play when ranking the greatest ever Objectivity & Facts Over Feelings, Fanboys, & Haters Some So called fans rank Kobe outside top 10 (disrespectful) because they don’t like Kobe personally and some want to build up LeBron. Also because of Colorado incident. Kobe is top 5
Hakeem was definitely the best center ever. If Shaq had cared to be in shape or learn to hit a free throw, I'd consider him. But The Dream was just so much of a complete player.
I 100 % agree with the HAKEEM assessment. Yes, im from Houston. HOWEVER, The 1995 Finals championship has been called the "MOST DIFFICULT" to achieve, by many sports commentators. He was instrumental of course. He beat up on Shaq, and many other ELITE centers (you mentioned THAT)
I mean, I'd argue 2011 Nowitzki is as rough as they get. LeBron/Wade/Bosh, after threeVP era Thunder, and Kobe/Gasol Lakers (and even LaMarcus as a mirror match in round 1 is no joke). Unfair here, but 22 Curry messes with this order too - it becomes hard to rate KD over Curry now, and I'm probably leaning towards putting him in the Hakeem/Magic/Bird (I rate Bird as Magic's equal) tier. I think he's also sneakily a great argument for Jordan as GOAT and LeBron at the same time - Jordan because he makes it harder to argue LeBron dominated his era, and LeBron because he makes LeBron's era stronger than MJ's, which lacked great rivalries in the title runs.
I’m a huge Kobe fan, but not really entirely due to his play on the court, but also his impact on the league and the constant grind that he inspired everyone with after his passing. Rest In Peace to the the Black Mamba #24
Tim ducan at 12 are u serious the man has 5 rings 2 mvps a defensive god he didn’t want to score 30 points a game he wanted to win and Kobe at 11 come on bruh
Tim Duncan: I agree with you Kobe: He gets overrated not saying he wasn’t great. Most of the statistics doesn’t favor him and his criteria doesn’t favor him either
Sometimes I feel as though you contradict yourself with some points when it came to different players. However, I really respect this list, Mr. McCockiner.
he gives facts for why ther are placed they’re and how they changed the game are u sure u watch basketball? or espn? or undisputed? or listen to former nba players talk about KD and steph?
I would of add that KD's real obstacles in his Championship runs were the two conference finals he made with Golden State. As he faced an unhealthy San Antonio and Houston
Unhealthy San Antonio......thats an interesting way of saying "sabotaged by Zaza Pachulia" Sorry.....still really bitter about that. Lost the series and started the poison entering Kawhi's mind to become a spineless traitor.
I like your list for the most apart and even with spots I disagree with I understand your context, all except for Curry and kd highness and Timmy and Kobe’s lowness. I feel like what you said Curry and kd blemishes are things Kobe and Timmy make. And as talents I agree with thier ranking I feel like their accolades are not on pare and help that they have is far better to not put him in this top 10.
yeah it’s honestly a pretty solid list but i think Tim not being in top 10 while Hakeem is on Mt Rushmore isn’t right. Tim was a better player and overcame many great teams whereas Hakeem was a fantastic player but couldn’t quite get over the hump with less great teams. I think the reasoning was a bit flawed since he said the 90s era was very watered down compared to the 2000s and up but gave Hakeem, who underperformed in a watered down era, a higher ranking than the guy that stopped Bron from winning a lot of rings
@@rafikz77 he was by far their best player and the leader tho , they don't become a dynasty without him, it's like jimmy butler last year with the heat, yeah they're good defensively and have a decent coach, but they got no half court offense and without jimmy they don't go as far as they have in the playoffs without him
@@PervySage723 they were a 55 win team and forced a game 7 against the knicks who forced a game 7 against the rockets in the finals without Mike, Cavs after LeBron left both times was a lottery team, GSW is a joke without Curry
@sakara but when majority of nba greats that had play against him and game plan against him and guard him say he’s top 3 does that not say something? How can the op say “if you think Kobe is top 3 you’re more smart” pretty much when players like Lebron and Tatum and MJ have him top 3 🤣🤣
I love this video because it’s based on straight facts and truth not nostalgia and feelings. The shii he said about Kobe is something that 90% of NBA fans will never come to realize man. Like u Bash LeBron for Having Dwade & He still lead the time and got the Finals MVP but you dont bash Kobe for having a top 10 player and having shaq lead the team
The reason why I have LeBron over MJ is the disparity of competition. MJ was on the best team in the league definitively, whereas Bron has never been on the consensus best team in the league. Yes even when LeBron was on the Heat. Also Duncan was underrated in this list. Arguably the greatest winner ever (he has like a 70% win rate which is fucking insane). For me he's top 5
This man really has kd & steph over kobe & duncan ..guys like this dude are the reason nba fandom is dyin, they’re too focused on PER & advanced stats to prove if someone is great or not meanwhile his goat get a pass without even havin a go-to move or a reliable jumpshot and joins players with that skillset to bail him out in that area
Mostly agree, but 1) Stockton and Malone are both the all-time leaders in career VORP and win shares at their positions. Malone is #2 in scoring and Stockton leads 2 of the 5 major categories by a country mile. Why aren't either top 12? 2) That makes Jordan's finals opponents pretty freakin good, though his team was stacked. Without Rodman, Jazz win easily. 3) Why consider team success AND fault players for being on stacked teams? Few non-stacked teams ever win.
@@arc283429 you still don't understand VORP! League average of PLAYERS, not backups. Both VORP and win shares attempt to mathematically combine points, rebounds, assists, etc. They differ somewhat in their calculation, but by either metric, Stockton had the best career of any point guard ever, and Malone had the best of any power forward ever.
Malone's only claim is that he has good career stats, but that's only because of A) John Stockton and B) Utah's offense running through him like clockwork. Why do you think Malone never left the Jazz until Stockton retired? I'm sure teams made very handsome offers to him over the years. Stockton made Malone, and Karl knew it deep down. But by the same token, that offense made Stockton as well. They were a team within the team, Stockton passing to Malone got them both on those all-time stat leaderboards. That being said, Stockton's issues are different. John Stockton didn't make the list because his career achievements and potential were hampered inherently by being a pure point guard. The only pure point guard on this list is Magic (who is also incredibly tall for a point guard, making a mismatch while the other team's smallest player has to guard him), who had elite offensive options on his team for the entire 1980's, one of which was another player in the GOAT conversation. Pure, facilitating point guards can't take over a game, only their teammates can - just like how great quarterbacks can't win on their own, neither can pure point guards. They can elevate a team with good play-calling and leadership for sure, but that elevation has a ceiling, and that ceiling is called "the rest of the team". Chris Paul only reached the finals because The Suns have a good team that he joined. Rajon Rondo hasn't sniffed consistent playoff success without Hall of Famers around him. Jason Kidd needed a good team around him. Steve Nash needed a good team around him, he could shoot very well but he was too short to take over a playoff game (much less a series) in the 2000's Western Conference because he couldn't get past both the Lakers and San Antonio; either The Lakers would guard him to death, or Pop's defense would ice him and his weapons out. Isiah Thomas, Steph Curry, and Allen Iverson could all score on their own, but only one of them is ringless because of the team, or lack thereof, surrounding them. One time is an accident, twice is a coincidence, but three times is a pattern, and that many elite point guards coming up short for the same reasons is too much to ignore. Winning is important in GOAT debates, and Stockton didn't / couldn't win.
@@joemuller9148 vorp and win shares both take into account their insane longevity and reward it, but their peaks as players are not on the level of anyone in this video. Malone maybe you could argue who was a solid mvp caliber player, but definitely not Stockton. Stockton was just great for a really really long time, but he wasn't *all time great* like the others present in the video. Given that both VORP and total win shares take into account games played, I'd say no, Stockton isn't even a top 5 point guard of all time, unless you are looking at solely at longevity
16:53 woah woah woah dominated baby shaq not prime Shaq. I’ll tell you one thing take the best team lebron has ever had and put it against the best team MJ has had and MJ wins guarding lebron while MJ drops 40 each game
In my honest opinion id give the edge to MJ mainly because the skill of an era doesn't matter, skill should be equivalent to the development of a sport, you wouldn't see someone dropping 12 3s in 1970-80 because the 3pt shot didn't even exist till 1979. MJ had the ability to dominate whatever era he was in, now while MJ might have had a better team than 2003-2010 and 2015-2018 bron he still had the mental toughness to try again when he was down. If you took a d3 college ball player and threw them into the early NBA they would drop 60 easy but MJ is the only player that you can say if you dropped him in this current NBA he could drop 40 easy. Also in his prime MJ had a way consistent motor than bron in his prime. But I still believe that 2016 was the greatest finals performance by any superstar ever.
in my opinion, i disagree because you also have to remember how terrible the defense was back in the 90s. Also it was a perfect situation for mj. Zone coverage was banned so he could iso people with his insane first step and accelerationa long with vertical. Then there was also barely any teams that had over .500 win shares. Mj also had much less burden than lebron. Lebron had to do everything on the court and MJ only had to score which was perfect for him because defense was so terrible and zone coverage banned. The teams he played in the finals were good for their team but compared to many other finals they were very mediocre. Also the 72-10 season was a bit inflated like he said because how garbage the teams were and the expansions. And also Scottie pippen was a great duo player that could honestly lead a franchise himself. Lebrons case is basically hes 2-3% worse than micheal jordan. But his longevity has been so long that it is absolutely insane. Its like if you have a heads or tails coin and micheals coin is 3 heads in a row for you which win you 3 times. but lebrons wins 8 times but you only win 95% of the money instead.
![เปิดบ้าน พี่ตูน Bodyslam หลังใหม่คนแรก ที่ภูเก็ต l [Nickynachat]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/flFwcmyDQSk/mqdefault.jpg)
I love how this guys channel looks like a meme at first glance, but going deeper I've found some of the better analysis on TH-cam. Respect
If you think this is good analysis, you should raise your standards
@@bruhmoment6620 go back to watching Skip and Shannon then
@@bruhmoment6620 where do you get your analysis from
@@B4rry16 this video might seem well thought out, but really he has nobody challenging his “analysis” so what he’s saying might sound smart but it’s really all garbage, how can you have curry and KD above Tim Duncan all time? There’s literally no argument for it
@@bruhmoment6620 Nobody cares what you say
Don’t forget about Shaq’s 1 career 3-pointer
I thought that was in an all star game.
@@1NumeroUno vs the Knicks in pre-season
@@1NumeroUno ah ok
@@1NumeroUno 50% 3 point shooter that year. Curry could never.
I thought he had 2 LMAO 🤣
“people use platforms that didn’t even exist the last time he wasn’t an elite player to say he’s overrated” is an such an insane line and i didn’t even think of it that way until you said it, lebron is crazy lmao
A nice way to say "let me give him another participation trophy"
@@raviolihands5347 cry about it 😂😂
kobe at 11 wheres bill russel larry bird
I love how he brings up Tom Brady multiple times in this video 🤣
dude is a literal troll account lol
You must be new
Brady lives rent free in his head
@@blacker5826 no, he's literally overrated and he has proof
@@AT3toxic So why doesn't he argue with Von Allen Sports and rejects everyone's choice to argue with them or not. That is ignorance my friend not proof
Wilt was a freak on and off the court 😂😂😂
I literally just realized what he meant by that when I say this comment
@Grimace He was…. the highlight of the town if you know what I mean.
You forgot the "who could last on any era" bit
💀
@@conquistadorito hell yeah! Have him with a John Stockton or Magic Johnson as PG and rings would drop from the sky..
"Not all rings are equal" this can not be overstated.
John 3:16 🙏🏽
Yeah, Mickey Mouse ring doesn't count
@@МаксимГорюнов-м7иlol pathetic
@@МаксимГорюнов-м7и you Only think that cause Lebron won it
@@1DJ_416 I know that because it's a fact
Hakeem is easily the most respectable placement on this list people don’t understand how great he was
He got that first mega contract, right?
I think about 15 million/year
@@1NumeroUno well to be fair he did get his 2 rings when MJ retired. That was absolutely prime Jordan. Hakeem could have easily finished his career without a ring if Jordan doesn’t retire
@@1NumeroUno they only played twice a season. And it’s the regular season at that. But I’m not saying the bulls for sure would have won dude. It’s all hypothetical Hakeem has 2 rings and that’s that. It’s cool to think about if Jordan doesn’t retire at his peak tho. It’s hard to imagine anyone on the rockets stopping Jordan in a 7 game series in the nba finals
@@1NumeroUno nobody said Hakeem was lucky?? All I said was Hakeem got his 2 rings when Jordan retired. and that’s a FACT. Hakeem was unstoppable. Jordan was unstoppable. Man it would have been fun
@@1NumeroUno Hakeem did outplay Shaq in the 95 finals, but since you like to post the stats when player's teams face off here is Hakeem vs Shaq when their teams went head to head for their careers. Don't give me the excuse that Hakeem was older for some of this, because Shaq was young for some of it as well. Don't give me the "right under the basket" or tell me you don't care for Shaq's FG% either because unless it's a 3 a FG made is factually 2 points. A mid range shot is not worth more than a make right at the rim. This is their head to head overall no cherry picking specific games:
Reg Season (20 games)
Shaq: 22 PTS / 54.4 FG% / 12 REB / 4 AST / 1 STL / 2 BLK
Hakeem: 18 PTS / 44.7 FG% / 9 REB / 3 AST / 1 STL / 2 BLK
*Shaq + 4 PTS, + 9.7,FG% + 3 REB, + 1 AST
Single Game Highs for each during this stretch:
Shaq: 34 PTS / FG% 70 / 20 REB / 8 AST / 2 STL / 6 BLK
Hakeem: 31 PTS / 64.7 FG% /15 REB / 9 AST / 5 STL / 6 BLK
Playoffs (8 games)
Shaq: 29 PTS / 55.6% / 11 REB / 5 AST / 0.5 STL / 3 BLK
Hakeem: 23 PTS / 46.5% / 9 REB / 3 AST / 2 STL / 1 BLK
*SHAQ + 6 PTS. + 9.1 FG%, + 2 REB, + 2 AST, + 2 BLK
*HAKEEM + 1.5 STL
Single Game Highs for each during this stretch:
Shaq: 37 PTS / 64.7 FG% / 16 REB / 9 AST / 2 STL / 5 BLK
Hakeem: 35 PTS / 76.9 FG% / 15 REB / 7 AST / 3 STL / 4 STL
Remember, Wilt "blasted" Russell because of stats, so per your logic the overall stats favor Shaq when they went head to head. Shaq blasted Hakeem more than Hakeem blasted him. Make excuses about Shaq's size all day here, yet you did not give Russell a pass for being smaller than Wilt. I am just applying your logic to this subject here.
I appreciate his point about bigs not being able to initiate the offense. It's what makes players like Durant, Giannnis, and Joker so valuable. They keep the size advantage and the ability to shoot over anyone while still having the ball in there hands to start the offense.
I know KD is basically a 7 footer but he’s far from a big. He’s literally a wing player because of his size+frame. Can’t really bunch him up with Giannis and Jokic as being a big when KD is likely the easiest 7footer that any big can back down.
@@y2bangali there’s a reason that KD is a SF at 7 fucking feet tall 😂
KD is hardly a big. He might be near 7 foot, but he's too skinny to be considered a big. LeBron is way bigger than KD despite both playing the same position.
@@the757general2 yep. Tend to be muscly maybe a bit chunky while kd is the most lanky dude in the nba. Works to his advantage but he's more of a sg
It’s wild how so many people online have Kobe as their 1-3 pick when there’s no real objective metric for having him that high
Honestly I believe MJ had the greatest peak of all time and LeBron have the greatest longevity of all-time
That’s honestly the best way to look at it and I’m someone who thinks Lebron is the greatest
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Facts. It all depends on which on you value more but they’re 1&2 all time. Lebron solidified himself as a top 2 player nothing below that.
Personally it’s more impressive that Lebron has been so consistent for this long on top of being the most complete player ever all in the most talented era. So he’s my goat
@@leultrainstinct406 He is not the most complete player ever.
Summed it up well.
Big respect for putting Hakeem at #4. He was simply amazing.
Yh people don’t get than by his second year in the league he went to the finals and beat the showtime lakers in 5 and lost to the best Celtics in 6. If he had Ralph Sampson all his career he could easy have more than 2 championship
U think this list is good? I think this is a troll buddy 😂 u think Curry is better than timmy, kobe, shaq, and bird? Youre just as delusional as him
@@KG-jw4jg yes curry would destroy trash bird
@@KG-jw4jg look at curry man so inspirational getting casual fans pissed off
@@ryfybeatz1291 I bet your inspiration is flight reacts I’ve never seen such a fanboy
I love the Hakeem pick at #4! The man is criminally underrated. 👍
Yup
Tom Brady motivated LeBron James to play basketball and win championships
He should get credit for lebrons rings. 11 rings. Tied with Bill Russell
@@ruebenllongoria836 6+4=11 now
@@gravoligaming3970 Brady has 7 rings. Lebron has 4. 7+4=11…
@@gravoligaming3970 lol didnt take math huh?
Fun fact. Hakeem has a 13-10 record against MJ
Tim Duncan has a 21-15 record against LeBron James including 11-5 in the playoffs.
@@dantealoving but not as a dominant player, but which hinders his individual impact
@@bobjones3986 I agree. Just like Hakeem was not as dominant as Jordan.
@@dantealoving you’ll find no argument here, but what I will say is Hakeem contributed to those wins against Jordan more than Duncan against Lebron.
@@bobjones3986 Tim was more dominant than bron, he sacrificed stats for the betterment of the team, something bron never did. That’s why Tim won 4 rings in 10 years and bron barely winning 4 in 17. When has bron ever recorded a quadrupole double like Duncan? Why did Duncan never miss the playoffs like bron has?
I respect your list, and how you included Hakeem, KD and Curry but I believe that Tim Duncan is a top 5 all time because of the how he kept the spurs in playoff contention for his whole career, his finals mvp as a somophore and how he basically made Greg Poppovich great
It's a crime Duncan didn't win dpoy. His defensive longveity was good. Anchoring great defenses since 2014
He says he like peak a lot but bird is so low and goes nitpicking his playoffs success but doesn't with curry and kd
@@tpsamhe criticized durant and curry a lot but they transcended the game so much more than Bird. Yes it was very fun watching Celtics vs. Lakers but at the same time there were only a couple other good teams
Saw Duncan at 12 and knew I was in for a wild ride…
@@elijahrincon3586 because they’re simply better than guys like Kobe and shaq
@@elijahrincon3586 Kobe was WAYYY overrated he was ok at best in the playoffs, a complete ball hog, an overrated shooter, and the best aspect of his game was scoring and he isn’t even a top 5 scorer all time shaqs Close but had to short of a prime to be better than steph and KD
@@teehiggins5734 the day steph curry is better than shaq is the day i kill myself
@@teehiggins5734 defense
I understand why some people can get upset at seeing KD and Steph being ranked so high, but keep in mind that both of this guys had to go against LeBron, and was able to dominate at certain rare points in this LeBron era. The reason we rank LeBron so high is also due to the level of competition so we also have to his competition the same respect.
I love that even with the number 3 player ever, you still had a shitload of criticism. Very enjoyable video.
I appreciate how you add real context to your evaluation of players. All the good, and all the bad. Respect.
I agree with almost everything on this list and I think MJ vs LeBron at this point is just based on opinion and what stats you think are most important. I also like how you had KD and Curry in the top 10 because whether people want to admit it or not, this era is so much harder than the 60s,70s,80s and people tend to overrate old players just because they are old players.
Old heads tend to make the best players of their generation look perfect and like to diss onkdern players and talk as if their era was hardest
I mean Kd doesn’t deserve 6tho rather upper 10… he isn’t good alone and a pussy mentally
Or curry is just top ten
TD, & kobe are in the top 8,, idc what anybody says,, kobe and Duncan are better than shaq and wilt
@@king-ghost1027 yeah those are the only two I was a little confused about
This dude has genuinely got really good reasons for all his placements.
Even though you disagree, you still want to watch. That's good content right there.
Hes the only person to make me reconsider the lebron goat case
Right? I don’t agree with the order of all of the players on this list. I don’t disagree with the rationale or arguments he makes though. At all.
You can make anything sound good if you only say positive points to make your arguments sound good for example he talked about Jordan competition in the finals but he didn’t talk about the road to the finals where Mj and Kobe faced more 50+ wins teams then Lebron have even though he’s played longer
Also imagine if Jordan just left and joined the rockets back in the day like of course they would win every year who was Miami suppose to lose to when Lebron joined them realistically?? Nobody
The thing is MJ's finals opponents were considered weak (for his standards) apart from maybe Phoenix or the Supersonics. But the road to getting each of those finals might've been tougher matchups overall. Also the Jazz were healthy coming into the finals in 1997 and 1998 against MJ with the flu and the year after Scottie being injured, so I wouldn't say the Bulls had 'easy' finals matchups to start with.
HIV magic, clyde drexler choking, solid suns team, mid sonics squad, and two jazz teams full of chokers
mj beat more 60-win teams in the playoffs than any other player
@@chief6541number of games won dont mean anything, kd warriors didnt even win 60 games in 2019 and they still would beat almost any team ever
@@chief6541 that doesn’t say everything though considering the amount of shitty expansion teams in the 90’s who were considered free wins
The Eastern conference was considered tougher in Jordan era compared to lebrons Era where the Eastern conference was weak was even nicknamed
the “Leastern Conference”
I like lebron more than MJ but MJ has the most interesting stat i’ve seen.
Jxmyhighroller made a vid on this but there was a crazy stat someone noticed about MJ. He went 9 straight years without losing 3 games in a row. Beside his own teammates no other player has come close. Goes to show how much this man despised losing,
I mean LeBron kinda played with a Cavs team that lets just say wasnt the best
@@sehapoul7097 He just made the finals cuz east sucked.
@@moneyiscool29 how the fuck did the east suck?? The Celtics big 3? The raptors were young but derozan has proved this yesr he always been elite the raptors just couldn’t overcome lebron which is very u understandable and an elite Paul George in a scrappy packers team like dude that’s such a weak ass excuse
@@sehapoul7097 he also played in an east where I could lead them to the playoffs
You sure you would at 23?
I don’t agree with some of it, but I’m not nearly as knowledgable as you or anybody else so I can’t defend myself outside the realm of personal preference. Anyways, you’re lists make me think, make me wonder, and sometimes, convince me. Awesome vid!
Lol, still snuck in a Brady insult. Love it.
Some of the things were manipulated though he left out parts like MJ team before pippen MJs best statistical seasons and playoff runs while adding it in for lebron and other players when it suited lebron or other players best best, not to mention leaving out defense when it suited the player he wanted to rank high and adding the fact they were poor defensively for instance magic johnson being low because of his sub-par defense when he was trying to defend his position.
There was very little consistency when arguing his positions sometimes longevity was more important sometimes accolades and sometimes versitility even though that means nothing it is what you do with that versitility.
The author of this video is wrong on so many levels, he knows next to nothing
@@-ac-8296 This is a sentence that accidentally perfectly describes its own creator.
@@Rekcha your sentence describes you its creator? It's strange for you to use circular self referencing
Thinking Basketball's video on Lebron at 37 explains a lot of his continued success. I think, just like MJ, Bron came into the league at the right time. Only one year in the "Deadball Era" and the game gets increasingly easier offensively. For MJ, it's right at the time the media was looking for an athlete in a team sport to build a story around, and MJ's flair was the best selling point. Timing is everything!
Yes but the difference is Bron came into a team that couldn't care less. MJ had a team willing to give him the pieces necessary to win. You cannot deny that.
@@lolno6975 true
Michael had god tier teammates, LeBron never had overwhelmingly good teammates
@@thesharinganknight9859 Facts
@@thesharinganknight9859 that's tough, but Wade, Kyrie and AD are his best teammates. As far as consistency was concerned, they all fell apart at the wrong time.
Wade was moving past his prime. Not done yet, but it was around '15/'16 that he started getting moved around to different teams.
Kyrie is Kyrie. Doesn't need much explanation.
And AD fell apart right at the end of Bron's prime, which just shrank his window of opportunity.
Jordan didn't have the same issues with his teammates, so he had an easier path. Both are still great and can't be lower than 1/2
This is probably the strongest case for Hakeem being top five I've ever seen and I'm someone who also has him there
Top 8 at best
@@mike04574 Great argumentation.
@@ivanpuzjak821 common sense, no need for any arguments. Never seen him in a top3 or 4 before either
@@mike04574 appealing to common sense is fallacious reasoning
@@krosses7156 then you can be the odd one out putting hakeem in your top 3 or whatever then. take 10 seconds to look at the guys above him and you'll know why they are above hakeem
Tim Duncan needs to be higher. He did it on both sides of the ball and was a phenomenal leader. 5 rings 3FMVP 2 MVP ROY 15X AS 15X All NBA 15X All Defense. Not a chance in hell this guy is outside the top 10. Averaged 15-9 in the 2014 playoffs at 37! years old and won the championship. He has a winning percentage of 72% over his entire career!! Made the playoffs every single year. Arguably one of the best careers ever, while doing it in the modern NBA. You state he would be higher if he had a more "dominate peak" which you only talked about his scoring and there is a lot more to basketball than that.
0:09
He said he focused mostly on their peak when making this list. u deaf?
@@goodman9968 it should be peak and longevity
@@jamman950 he said peak and longevity throughout the video….
@@TheDudeAbides1998 nice joke
Duncan also has a winning record against every single team in the NBA
I love how he focuses on players' flaws. These lists always only talk about their strengths so they seem arbitrary along the margins.
Magic Johnson is writing a book to raise awareness about how to avoid HIV. Chapter 1? “Don’t Have Sex with Me.” - Norm Macdonald
Good list. Did wilt a little dirty though. It’s impossible to say how he’d do today, but I like to believe he would be a top 2-3 player. Winning finals MVP his final season too.
This is a terrible list are you stupid
Gotta keep in mind team impact wily is not a team guy
Shaq higher than wilt is atrocious
The unwavering commitment to Tom Brady slander is what keeps bringing me back to this channel
Y’all are weird asf
Putting Tim Duncan number 12 is blasphemious
Hell yeah lmao
based on his criteria that’s right abt where he should be
No
@@kcartiertalksball he's top 10 in rebounds and blocks and he won 3 final mvps
@@Clutchassassin the criteria wasn’t total rebounds and final mvps read the criteria and rethink what you said
his list
12-Tim Duncan 0:23
11-Kobe Bryant 1:30
10-Wilt Chamberlin 3:24
9-Shaquille Oneal 5:18
8-Larry Bird 7:18
7-Stephen Curry 10:10
6-Kevin Durant 12:12
5-Magic Johnson 14:04
4-Hakeem Olajuwon 16:18
3-Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 18:28
2-Michael Jordan 21:24
1-Lebron James 25:35
thanks so much
Where in hell is Dr.J"!
@@glenn7152 nice name
KD over Steph is a joke
my biggest problem is that as a knicks fan don't give me hate here that bill russel isn't on here and wilt is I get that wilts numbers may be better but nobody has dominated basketball like bill russel ever
I genuinely don’t understand why you don’t get more views/subs
Because he needs to do more content like this instead of trolling all the time. He has serious data analysis talent
Agreed with above^
I can't imagine the effort time and talent that goes into producing narrating and editing this stuff but as funny as Barry trolls are on Twitter his talent in this regard really deserves more mass appeal. Like, nationally.. but, for better or worse.. his reputation proceeds him.
@@JServo I've documented how far every one of Brady's completed passes traveled in all of his SBs and other stuff like that and it takes forever. Barry does that all the time for many different players and for different sports. It's insane.
@@lightning10053 he's definitely very football smart. He knows what he's talking about. He's not a lunatic like Stephen A. Smith is.
I think Barry and the basketball channel “thinking basketball” would be a great collab.
My top ten is
1. MJ
2. Bron
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Larry
6. Wilt
7. Kobe
8. Timmy
9. Shaq
10. Hakeem
11. Steph
12. KD
Basically the ppl he mentioned re arranged
Hakeem at 10 is so disrespectful
See no matter where you put everyone someones gonna be mad
I respect wilt
Ur list is far better then his minus lebron
Switch kd and steph on 11 and 12 and bird Switch with magic 4 5 and were good
@@TheTonytone77 found a Bron hater living rent free on yo head
I also have Hakeem in my top 5 so when I saw the #4 i was so excited to see someone else views him factually like I do.
I don't know much of anything about basketball as I've only very casually followed it for a few years but your reasoning was extremely sound.
Duncan slander: all around on offense, one of the best defenders ever, won 70% of his games, never missed the playoffs for damn near 20 years. Dude is a winner
And what that mean? Duncan’s last couple of seasons suck
@@producedbykhireyakeem4340 like most people’s last seasons don’t? please explain how amazing mj was on the wizards
@@producedbykhireyakeem4340 yeah no. He made an All-NBA team in his 18th season.
Agreed, Duncan has many incredible accomplishments not to mention the level of competition he faced regularly, with teammates that are nowhere near as great as other teammates that top 10-12 greats played with, while also playing in one of the slowest paced decades in NBA history on one of the slowest paced teams as well and remaining a consistent threat on both defense and offense for nearly 20 years
Great take at the end
Duncan's peak productivity is lowered by his team being the slowest paced in the league. Per possession, he's actually right there with a lot of the other all-time great bigs. He's also better than Kobe and should be above Shaq, KD, Curry, and probably Hakeem.
I always argue for Hakeem being in the top 10, which isn't the most popular opinion in itself, but top 4 is just too high. How he's above Magic is just insane. Sorry, but actually accomplishing things matters more than not being the reason you didn't accomplish something. Offensively Magic had a better career FG% as a PG than Hakeem did as a C and it's not because all he did was get lay ups and dunks. People talk like Magic was Ben Simmons or something. He was a career 85% FT shooter who in his last 3 seasons started shooting 3's more regularly and shot them respectfully for the time. Everyone is so quick to insist Mike would have developed a 3 in the modern game, but seem to think that Magic wouldn't have despite the fact he was actually a very good shooter (albeit with an awful looking form). Don't even get me started on the advanced stats you love to throw out there when they're in your favor. Magic buries Hakeem in those. And if you can't even find a spot for Bill Russell and have Tim Duncan outside the top-10 I just don't want to hear about defense from you.
Steph and KD are way too high.
How is duncan out of top 10 and hakeem was a better defender and scorer also post game and mid range and peak, probably one of the best playoff runs in history, has the edge in longveity. The only thing magic was better at then hakeem was obviously passing
I hate when people say magic is ben simmons. There game isn't even close lol
Agree with everything
This aged well for steph
I was gonna argue Wilt's ranking but you bring up good points about the pace of play and him playing worse in the playoffs, those are valid criticisms, I just hate when people knock him cause of his competition, like he should be penalized for being a physical and athletic freak. It's not his fault that there were no other guys walking the Earth at that time that had his combination of size, strength and athleticism. Extreme example but lets say there was some 8ft freak that came into the league today and put up Wilt like stats for 15 years. Should we downplay it or penalize him just cause he is physically more dominant than everybody else? I don't think so.
I think you have to consider the average talent level of the entire league of each era. Sports in general have many more highly talented players now than back in Wilt’s prime. As another extreme example, there was a time in football when they thought an onside kick could be a better offensive tool than the forward pass. Players are just better and coaches are just smarter now, and would likely (although not definitely) compete with Wilt better than the players back then, if for no other reason than better strategy. He’s a wonderful player to watch, though, and my grandmother said he was even more wonderful in bed.
@@Rekcha well no one in the modern Era is a better athletic then wilt so idk why the Era argument even matters. Also he had to play a HOF center 60 times a year that's something no one does today
@@Rekcha Bill Russell, John Havlicek, Bob Cousy, Sam Jones, Bob Pettit, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Walt Bellamy, Kareem, and Willis Reed, so yeah, a bunch of talentless nobodies.
You can only dominate the competition ahead of you, what more can you expect?
@@Rekcha noope... the modern players would be restricted by the rules of that era, a lot of the things that make them great weren't even around back then. Your whole people are smarter today is nonsense.
@@universalplayz7496 stop believing myths wilt himself started. There's no footage of him demonstrating athletic ability beyond the athletic big men in the games history and today
Something that’s a major pet peeve of mine when it comes to all time ranking discussions is how people will discredit the 60s and 70s to undermine wilt, bill and Kareem but won’t acknowledge just how watered down the 90s were with talent especially in comparison to the 2000s onward. I get it, the media, the NBA and the fans loved and adored MJ be genuinely speaking it is impossible to have an actual objective discussion about the man with anyone who likes him.
There’s a stigma that you had to get through the Great Wall of china to score in the 90s
@@thedude7596 Yeah, but it was a more defensive era that didn't have the same spacing and rules favoring offensive players that you see today. Prime Jordan would feast on today's spacing.
@@thedude7596 people mistake the 90's for the 80's, 80's was a far rougher decade than the 90's.
90s was a slow paced defensive era, not many players stood out. Had MJ not existed, so many more teams would've won chips. He literally is so much better than everyone around him it makes us question his entire era. But not in a Wilt way because the major reason he was so much better is because his opposition were getting ready to clock in at the construction site in an hour.
@@MovieGuy666 and in that decade MJ had better stats , was more athletic and better defensively but didn't have a good enough team to win so you're making the argument for MJ
Steph led golden state to another ring and was the best player during the finals. His spot on this list is solidified
Not at number 7 he’s top 15 tho
I’d like to see what your list would look like now after about a year has gone by and with Curry winning another ring
This is exactly what I was looking for
And Lebron being the all-time leading scorer. Even though I guess that wouldn’t change his rank
"Bill Russell overrated" time to educate casuals on NBA history:
The Celtics the year before Russell arrived (55/56): Lost E. Div. Semis. Red was coach, and they had Cousy + Sharman + McCauley + Risen.
The Celtics the 1st year Russell arrived (56/57): They lose McCauley, Defensive rating improves by 7.7, and they win the finals. The Celtics had never won a title or made a finals prior to this.
The Celtics the 2nd year with Russell (57/58): Make the finals, Russell gets hurt in game 3 of the finals, and the Celtics lose the finals. RIsen's last year. Sam Jones first year.
(58 to 66) The Celtics 8 peat. Throughout this time Sharman leaves and they keep winning. Havlicek yet to arrive for some of these titles, and Cousy gone for some of them and they still kept winning. Red retires as coach in 66.
The Celtics 11th year with Russell (66/67): They Lost E. Div. Finals. This marks the only playoff series in Russell's NBA career that his team lost with him healthy for the full series.
The Celtics win the title Russell’s last 2 years and Red was no longer the coach.
The first year after Russell retires. (68/69): Their defensive rating gets worse by 9.8 and they miss the playoffs.
*Took the Celtics 5 years after Russell to make and win another finals.
Celtics with Russell titles won without notable pieces:
Without Jones: 1 title
Without Sharman: 7 titles
Without Cousy: 5 titles
Without Risen: 9 titles
Without Havlicek: 6 titles
Without Heinsohn: 3 titles
Without coach Red: 2 titles (Russell was actually the coach for these while being a player)
The Celtics were not champions before Russell, were as soon as he arrived, and fell off immediately after Russell left. This was also with a lot of notables coming and going. Jones and Red were the only most of career major pieces with Russell and the Russell lead Celtics still managed titles without them in the small windows without them. None of these notables won a title or made a finals in Boston without Russell being with them.
The Celtics employed more of an equal opportunity offense without having 1 player taking a massive amount of shots or having high PPG. Regardless if offensive talents came or left they kept racking up rings with Russell anchoring the defense and facilitating the fast break, being a secondary coach to Red on the floor, and then for the last 2 rings being the actual coach.
Russell's FG% was actually a little over average relative to his era, and he is arguably the greatest defender ever and greatest leader ever + being a MT. Rushmore rebounder. He was just not a dominant scorer over his career, but him being that would not have made his team better, and he actually lead his team in the finals 3 times in scoring when they needed it.
Extremely well put, thank you for this
@@rhythmlessroxby You're welcome and thank you for taking the time to read it.
Weak era.
To add on, the NBA 25th Anniversary Team was selected by a panel consisting of Red Auerbach,
Ned Irish, Eddie Gottlieb, Haskell Cohen, Danny Biasone, Lester Harrison, Fred Zollner, Ben Kerner, Fred Schaus, and Bob Feerick. Then the 25 nominees were voted on by the players who had been named 1st Team All-NBA up to that point. Bill Russell was the only unanimous selection to the team, and only players who had completed their careers and had been named All-NBA at least once were eligible. Russell was also selected as the greatest player on the NBA 35th Anniversary Team.
@@ckq yes, bc bill or any other player in history has complete control over the era in which they played in.
4:21 Look at Wilt casually blocking "the most unstoppable shot of all time.
It's the wilt thing to do
It was goal tending
This video is crazy to listen to about Steph after his 2022 Finals MVP
well now steph is higher than magic
@@nonsodrake8585Hell No
@@nonsodrake8585nope
Houston chose Hakeem and no one blames the organization. That's how good he was.
How is Duncan #12 by all of these criteria? He is arguably the top of longevity (2nd most all NBA teams + most all defensive teams ever. 15 each for a combined 30 which is the highest All NBA + All Def combo ever). His competition level was great: Shaq, KG, Dirk, Kobe, LeBron, KD. Playoff performance try being the Spurs best player for 4 championship runs (99. 03, 05. 07). His 03 playoff run was one of the biggest carry jobs of all time. Peak is the only area where I could see the case for not top 10. The rest he is easily top 10.
Also, lol at Curry being above Bird.
@@stevemenzies3822 no
He said kd was better than Tim all time ..
@@AJ-sl7be yes. Duncan is 2-1 against him in the finals (should be 3-0), more chips, defensive teams, better leader, teammate, could play in any system, won a chip in each decade, bron is nowhere near Duncan plz stop
curry is better than bird....
@@samn.3457 lol no
I never comment and I think MJ is the GOAT but damn dude great stuff. Best all time great list and commentary I’ve ever heard. I also like Tom Brady but it’s hard to argue such great points had me rethinking the whole MJ/Lebron debate.
Nice list. Huge Hakeem fan so its nice to see him this high on the list
Disagree with a few of these including your #1 but respect your honesty and your analysis of the sport
1. Michael Jordan 6 FMVP + 5 MVP 🏆
2. Lebron James 4 FMVP + 4 MVP 🏆
3. Kareem Abdul Jabbar 2 FMVP + 6 MVP 🏆
4. Magic Johnson 3 FMVP + 3 MVP 🏆
5. Larry Bird 2 FMVP + 3 MVP 🏆
6. Wilt Chamberlain FMVP + 4 MVP 🏆
7. Bill Russell 5 MVP 🏆
8. Tim Duncan 3 FMVP + 2 MVP 🏆
9. Shaquille O'Neal 3 FMVP + MVP 🏆
10. Kobe Bryant 2 FMVP + MVP 🏆
10. Hakeem Olajuwon 2 FMVP + MVP 🏆
It's funny you don't mention how lebron joined 3 different super teams to win his rings
It’s funny how lebron is still extending his career and now has more points than anyone ever in the nba while still being overrated and he didn’t even take a 2 year baseball break.
Please tell me all the “superteams” he joined, im listeneing
The only one is the heat
MJ’s Bulls WAS the super team. So this argument is invalid.
@@c14nonyt85bro longevity stats are bs its a testament to ur greatness and deffo a feat but if you really favour longevity as much as u bron fans do then you believe jason terry>larry bird
I mostly agree with this list, I only disagree about these, Tim Duncan, Wilt and Possibky Kobe. Here are my reasons
Tim Duncan: He should be higher according to ur criteria. Longevity: Check. Playoff Performance: Check. Team Success: Check. Peak: Check-ish.
Wilt: I don’t think he should be listed on any list because of the unknown. We make so much assumptions about him... He played in a very old era which there wasn’t many social medias and some stats weren’t recorded. So it’s hard to rank him.
Kobe: I think he can be number 11. The stats doesn’t favor Kobe at all. He didn’t have a long career because of his Achilles injury. I might argue he should be higher than Shaq.
Also, not related but this is my take on “ifs” in ranking players. What if’s should be off the conversation because it’s all about bias and it would be extremely hard to rank. Like if ur a Jordan fan you would probably say what IF he didn’t retire for baseball look at how many rings he would have and they would also say what IF he got the modern medicine and treatment as today. And if you’re a Lebron fan you would be like What IF the warriors didn’t exist? What if Lebron got the teammates Jordan had? See this is the problem, if ur a Jordan fan you would only bring up what if’s about Jordan and if ur a Lebron fan you would only bring up what IFS about Lebron to make the argument whose better.
kobe played 20 years
and his injury was year 16
@Coregame3 i was disagreeing with the post agreeing with you.
@@Coregame3 one comment up ⬆️
Nigga wrote a whole paragraph just to explain his listening it's never that serious 😭😭😂💀
Great list. A few things I would change:
Tim Duncan is at least one behind or above Curry. Both had great team success and are considered great teammates. Curry is a better offensive player but Duncan is one of the best defenders ever.
I would completely remove Durant. His career would be similar to Karl Malone's if he never joined the Warriors. He is extremely talented but it's proven that he cannot lead a team to a championship without another Top 10 All-Timer on his team.
I think Bill Russell should be on the list. Yes, he played on a stacked team, but he was clearly the best player. 11 championships in 13 years is unbelievable, and if they gave out DPOY then he would have at least 10, which is insane. Yes, there were only like 8 teams, but it can be argued Russell was a more dominant player than Wilt.
Honorable Mention: Jerry West. He had the worst streak of luck in NBA championship history besides maybe LeBron. He put up insane stats and stepped up in the playoffs, and until Wilt joined the Lakers, he had no great big man in a league and style that required a great one. There was also no 3 point line, and he still averaged 30+ in the Finals while being 6'4 and WHITE. His game would translate to any era, and he is probably the only player from that era that could have had a better career if he came along later.
Go watch Barry's "All-Time Most Overrated NBA Players" and you'll see why Russell isn't on here - and I 100% agree with him on why Russell doesn't belong
I do not agree with the entire list but he has very solid reasons for all his picks. Great content.👍
Good video, man. I appreciate the research you did to come to these conclusions.
Those clips of Magic Johnson making long distance buzzer beaters?! 🤯 I learned something today
yeah thats crazy
15:38 damn magic hit so many halfcourt and full court buzzer beaters
yeah noticed that too
Average outside shooter but he was gold at hitting those looooong one handed 3s lol
Kinda sad Dr. J didn't make the list, and I was hoping so when he had mentioned the ABA stealing the NBA's talent, which is true, but it's fine. Though the 3x Champion, 4x MVP (3 of them being in a row), 2x Finals MVP, 3x Scoring Champion, as well as one of the best wing defenders of all-time. Not to mention how good he was in the playoffs as well as the Finals. He definitely does deserve some recognition.
MJ fans in the comments hurt by truth and facts 😂
Player Efficiency Rating
You should get on undisputed to convince skip bayless
I honestly think the number one spot is a toss between Lebron and Jordan, just a matter of preference.
Prime Seasons
The two are so close( REALLY CLOSE) during their best years (age23-29 seasons) advanced stats wise.
Lebron(30.1 PER, .283 WS/48) vs MJ (30.4 PER , .285 WS/48) The difference is so minimal I’d say it’s a tie.
Playoff Success
Although LeBrons 10 finals appearances is crazy, I think MJs 6-0 finals record gives him the edge in terms of playoff success.
Regular Season Accolades
This can be a little bit misleading, as I think accolades involves narrative and luck factor, rather than just pure on the court contributions of a player. It’s close, but I’d still take Jordan in this one because he has one more MVP and a DPOY. (I do believe LeBron should have won at least one more MVP and a DPOY in 2013)
Longevity
LeBron definitely gets an edge in this department.
@@johnshogskins4443 as much as I love Bird he aint even close to MJ and LeBron. Definitely top 10 all time though.
You think Lebron should have won one more mvp but Jordan should be sitting at 5??
I LOVE THIS CHANNEL. Mj is GOAT, but damn this man (channel) is A-tier creator
People aren’t gonna like the Kobe ranking
Neither steph nor kd are greater than Kobe lmao
@@kckc7140 Curry is way better than Kobe though
@@Howdidhenotseeme ??????
@@dubs6847 what? You’re wrong
@@dubs6847 foh
Duncan and Kobe outside of the top 10..... bro you're crazy
I understand Kobe but not Duncan
I mean he literally gave you his criteria though. Based on that, it makes sense. I personally have a dude with 5 rings way higher but, as I said, Timmy is where he is on this list because that's the criteria.
KD & Steph is not top 10
Hakeem is not top 10
Kobe is top 5
Duncan is top 7
LeBron is not the GOAT
@@manniesupasport7977 hakeem is definitely top 10. Kobe wasn't top 5...I had Magic, Kareem, Lebron, Bird and Jordan over him
This list is fair
@@rlmalonzo1184
Hakeem is #11 on my list
He is not top 10 greatest ever, he is 11-15 range like KD & Steph.
You can’t just look at stats (Wilt, Oscar) or just look at accolades (Duncan, B. Russell) when making a GOAT list. You definitely can’t use your feelings either (Kobe, LeBron, KD)
Stats, Accolades, Eye Test, Era played, & Longevity come into play when ranking the greatest ever
Objectivity & Facts Over Feelings, Fanboys, & Haters
Some So called fans rank Kobe outside top 10 (disrespectful) because they don’t like Kobe personally and some want to build up LeBron. Also because of Colorado incident.
Kobe is top 5
Great video.
The Hakeem respect is real.
Man, my list is close to yours, if only some differences, but your explanation is so good that I think I am going to change my all time list :v
Hakeem was definitely the best center ever. If Shaq had cared to be in shape or learn to hit a free throw, I'd consider him. But The Dream was just so much of a complete player.
I 100 % agree with the HAKEEM assessment. Yes, im from Houston. HOWEVER, The 1995 Finals championship has been called the "MOST DIFFICULT" to achieve, by many sports commentators. He was instrumental of course. He beat up on Shaq, and many other ELITE centers (you mentioned THAT)
I mean, I'd argue 2011 Nowitzki is as rough as they get. LeBron/Wade/Bosh, after threeVP era Thunder, and Kobe/Gasol Lakers (and even LaMarcus as a mirror match in round 1 is no joke).
Unfair here, but 22 Curry messes with this order too - it becomes hard to rate KD over Curry now, and I'm probably leaning towards putting him in the Hakeem/Magic/Bird (I rate Bird as Magic's equal) tier.
I think he's also sneakily a great argument for Jordan as GOAT and LeBron at the same time - Jordan because he makes it harder to argue LeBron dominated his era, and LeBron because he makes LeBron's era stronger than MJ's, which lacked great rivalries in the title runs.
This man takes “never let them know your next move” to a whole other level
The analysis is great… I have a few small differences and one big one, but the breakdown you give is legit. I love your videos.
I’m a huge Kobe fan, but not really entirely due to his play on the court, but also his impact on the league and the constant grind that he inspired everyone with after his passing. Rest In Peace to the the Black Mamba #24
Tim ducan at 12 are u serious the man has 5 rings 2 mvps a defensive god he didn’t want to score 30 points a game he wanted to win and Kobe at 11 come on bruh
Tim Duncan: I agree with you
Kobe: He gets overrated not saying he wasn’t great. Most of the statistics doesn’t favor him and his criteria doesn’t favor him either
Kobe overrated
The Duncan, curry, & Durant placements are pretty insane to me but this is still a great detailed video.
Sometimes I feel as though you contradict yourself with some points when it came to different players. However, I really respect this list, Mr. McCockiner.
Curry at 7 and KD at 6 🤣 I CAN’T are you sure you watch basketball?
Yes
he gives facts for why ther are placed they’re and how they changed the game are u sure u watch basketball? or espn? or undisputed? or listen to former nba players talk about KD and steph?
@@Ruhegames the ‘facts’ are nothing but opinions
@@Ruhegames changing the game means nilch
@@gggyy7104 really? showing what they averaged in playoff series and in finals are opinions? are u dumb?
finally list of best player base on actual stats...love this channel...
it wasn't actual stats it was a lot of conjecture and era bias.
Stat is a stat..it will be record forever...not like our comment about stats...
While I don’t completely agree with the list, This was a great video! 👍
facts mj over lebron curry over kd and tim duncan and kobe should be higher
I would of add that KD's real obstacles in his Championship runs were the two conference finals he made with Golden State. As he faced an unhealthy San Antonio and Houston
Unhealthy San Antonio......thats an interesting way of saying "sabotaged by Zaza Pachulia"
Sorry.....still really bitter about that. Lost the series and started the poison entering Kawhi's mind to become a spineless traitor.
@@imnotcreativeenoughh Man i feel you. in the regular season that year, the Spurs swept that warriors team.
@@twoswords5524 1 of 2 missing rings for that Dyansty....the other being obvious.
People often say Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's sky hook was unblockable, but I saw Wilt block it twice in the same possession (4:15-4:22).
Lmao, never watched a football game but I'm still a proud Tom Brady despiser thanks to you
I like your list for the most apart and even with spots I disagree with I understand your context, all except for Curry and kd highness and Timmy and Kobe’s lowness.
I feel like what you said Curry and kd blemishes are things Kobe and Timmy make.
And as talents I agree with thier ranking I feel like their accolades are not on pare and help that they have is far better to not put him in this top 10.
yeah it’s honestly a pretty solid list but i think Tim not being in top 10 while Hakeem is on Mt Rushmore isn’t right. Tim was a better player and overcame many great teams whereas Hakeem was a fantastic player but couldn’t quite get over the hump with less great teams. I think the reasoning was a bit flawed since he said the 90s era was very watered down compared to the 2000s and up but gave Hakeem, who underperformed in a watered down era, a higher ranking than the guy that stopped Bron from winning a lot of rings
I like this guy's style...instant subscribe lol 👌🏿
The reason MJ never faced a team like the Warriors was because he WAS that crazy super team that couldn’t be stopped.
He wasn’t that team, the team was that team
@@rafikz77 he was by far their best player and the leader tho , they don't become a dynasty without him, it's like jimmy butler last year with the heat, yeah they're good defensively and have a decent coach, but they got no half court offense and without jimmy they don't go as far as they have in the playoffs without him
@@rafikz77they were nothing without mike
@@PervySage723 they were a 55 win team and forced a game 7 against the knicks who forced a game 7 against the rockets in the finals without Mike, Cavs after LeBron left both times was a lottery team, GSW is a joke without Curry
gotta remember mjs numbers are inflated heavily cause he played weaker comp than nowadays
Oy Barry, you're gonna have to update this list, lol
The LBJ 🍆 🚴🏾 never stops lol
now that Steph won we need an update video Barry
two types of people
1. the smart ones
2. those who think kobe is top 3
So I guess Shaq ai Dwade bron MJ Tatum dbook magic Johnson and pretty much every player that’s ever played with or against Kobe isn’t smart 🤦🏾♂️
@sakara but when majority of nba greats that had play against him and game plan against him and guard him say he’s top 3 does that not say something? How can the op say “if you think Kobe is top 3 you’re more smart” pretty much when players like Lebron and Tatum and MJ have him top 3 🤣🤣
Preach
Kobe belongs where he is flatly. RIH though
Do I agree with Lebron at one no, But This video was absolutely amazing so I can't knock it too hard.
This is still my favorite Barry analysis video.
I’d even argue it’s his best critical one also
I love this video because it’s based on straight facts and truth not nostalgia and feelings. The shii he said about Kobe is something that 90% of NBA fans will never come to realize man. Like u Bash LeBron for Having Dwade & He still lead the time and got the Finals MVP but you dont bash Kobe for having a top 10 player and having shaq lead the team
The reason why I have LeBron over MJ is the disparity of competition. MJ was on the best team in the league definitively, whereas Bron has never been on the consensus best team in the league. Yes even when LeBron was on the Heat.
Also Duncan was underrated in this list. Arguably the greatest winner ever (he has like a 70% win rate which is fucking insane). For me he's top 5
2011-2013 heat
This man really has kd & steph over kobe & duncan ..guys like this dude are the reason nba fandom is dyin, they’re too focused on PER & advanced stats to prove if someone is great or not meanwhile his goat get a pass without even havin a go-to move or a reliable jumpshot and joins players with that skillset to bail him out in that area
The NBA is as profitable as it's ever been. LBJ's best attribute isn't scoring anyway.
Go to move and reliable jumper but still scored 40,000 points and 27 ppg over 20 years
Mostly agree, but 1) Stockton and Malone are both the all-time leaders in career VORP and win shares at their positions.
Malone is #2 in scoring and Stockton leads 2 of the 5 major categories by a country mile.
Why aren't either top 12?
2) That makes Jordan's finals opponents pretty freakin good, though his team was stacked. Without Rodman, Jazz win easily.
3) Why consider team success AND fault players for being on stacked teams? Few non-stacked teams ever win.
@@arc283429 you're wrong. It's value compared with the league average.
@@arc283429 you still don't understand VORP! League average of PLAYERS, not backups.
Both VORP and win shares attempt to mathematically combine points, rebounds, assists, etc. They differ somewhat in their calculation, but by either metric, Stockton had the best career of any point guard ever, and Malone had the best of any power forward ever.
@@joemuller9148 Malone is not better than Duncan dude
Malone's only claim is that he has good career stats, but that's only because of A) John Stockton and B) Utah's offense running through him like clockwork. Why do you think Malone never left the Jazz until Stockton retired? I'm sure teams made very handsome offers to him over the years. Stockton made Malone, and Karl knew it deep down. But by the same token, that offense made Stockton as well. They were a team within the team, Stockton passing to Malone got them both on those all-time stat leaderboards.
That being said, Stockton's issues are different. John Stockton didn't make the list because his career achievements and potential were hampered inherently by being a pure point guard. The only pure point guard on this list is Magic (who is also incredibly tall for a point guard, making a mismatch while the other team's smallest player has to guard him), who had elite offensive options on his team for the entire 1980's, one of which was another player in the GOAT conversation. Pure, facilitating point guards can't take over a game, only their teammates can - just like how great quarterbacks can't win on their own, neither can pure point guards. They can elevate a team with good play-calling and leadership for sure, but that elevation has a ceiling, and that ceiling is called "the rest of the team". Chris Paul only reached the finals because The Suns have a good team that he joined. Rajon Rondo hasn't sniffed consistent playoff success without Hall of Famers around him. Jason Kidd needed a good team around him. Steve Nash needed a good team around him, he could shoot very well but he was too short to take over a playoff game (much less a series) in the 2000's Western Conference because he couldn't get past both the Lakers and San Antonio; either The Lakers would guard him to death, or Pop's defense would ice him and his weapons out. Isiah Thomas, Steph Curry, and Allen Iverson could all score on their own, but only one of them is ringless because of the team, or lack thereof, surrounding them.
One time is an accident, twice is a coincidence, but three times is a pattern, and that many elite point guards coming up short for the same reasons is too much to ignore. Winning is important in GOAT debates, and Stockton didn't / couldn't win.
@@joemuller9148 vorp and win shares both take into account their insane longevity and reward it, but their peaks as players are not on the level of anyone in this video. Malone maybe you could argue who was a solid mvp caliber player, but definitely not Stockton. Stockton was just great for a really really long time, but he wasn't *all time great* like the others present in the video. Given that both VORP and total win shares take into account games played, I'd say no, Stockton isn't even a top 5 point guard of all time, unless you are looking at solely at longevity
16:53 woah woah woah dominated baby shaq not prime Shaq. I’ll tell you one thing take the best team lebron has ever had and put it against the best team MJ has had and MJ wins guarding lebron while MJ drops 40 each game
😂😂
I love that you put Hakeem at 4
In my honest opinion id give the edge to MJ mainly because the skill of an era doesn't matter, skill should be equivalent to the development of a sport, you wouldn't see someone dropping 12 3s in 1970-80 because the 3pt shot didn't even exist till 1979. MJ had the ability to dominate whatever era he was in, now while MJ might have had a better team than 2003-2010 and 2015-2018 bron he still had the mental toughness to try again when he was down. If you took a d3 college ball player and threw them into the early NBA they would drop 60 easy but MJ is the only player that you can say if you dropped him in this current NBA he could drop 40 easy. Also in his prime MJ had a way consistent motor than bron in his prime. But I still believe that 2016 was the greatest finals performance by any superstar ever.
in my opinion, i disagree because you also have to remember how terrible the defense was back in the 90s. Also it was a perfect situation for mj. Zone coverage was banned so he could iso people with his insane first step and accelerationa long with vertical. Then there was also barely any teams that had over .500 win shares. Mj also had much less burden than lebron. Lebron had to do everything on the court and MJ only had to score which was perfect for him because defense was so terrible and zone coverage banned. The teams he played in the finals were good for their team but compared to many other finals they were very mediocre. Also the 72-10 season was a bit inflated like he said because how garbage the teams were and the expansions. And also Scottie pippen was a great duo player that could honestly lead a franchise himself. Lebrons case is basically hes 2-3% worse than micheal jordan. But his longevity has been so long that it is absolutely insane. Its like if you have a heads or tails coin and micheals coin is 3 heads in a row for you which win you 3 times. but lebrons wins 8 times but you only win 95% of the money instead.