Aha, I actually do know something on this! He's right that the towers don't reload until all arrows have been launched. You can confirm this by modding in a crazy high garrison cap to a tower, and adding like 100 archers. The tower shoots a super long barrage of arrows, then waits a short moment before it restarts again. If there was no wait, it would never stop shooting.
The behavior is based on the *class* of the unit. Units of siege weapon class shoot all of their projectiles in one frame. All other classes shoot projectiles one by one, and the speed can be affected by the attribute *attack delay frames* too. Onagers: shoot[reload]shoot[reload] Castles: sssss[reload]sssss[reload] Elite Chu-ko-nus: s-----s-----s-----s-----s-----[reload]s-----s-----s-----s-----s-----[reload] (5 attack delay frames) Khmer Scorpion: s-------s-------[reload]s-------s-------[reload] (class ballista, 7 attack delay frames) The delay between firing has some randomness to it.
try this with the Celt's Stronghold tech with the x256 mod. Laser towers & castles is a sight to see (Note towers fire a single straight line of arrows rather than the "spread" from garrisoned archers so the laser is 100% accurate
You forgot perhaps the most important aspect; Towers have substantially more raw damage, meaning they do far more damage to high armor units. Against fully upgraded paladins, for example, 3 arbalests will do 12 damage, but garrisoned, they will do 16.
@@muhammadawan8919 i know you can get 3 if you put 10 elite jannisaries in never heard about the genose crossbow thing but based on the numbers it should be impossible
Bombard Towers can fire up to 4 cannon balls at once, but Genoese Crossbowmen don't have enough dps for that. 10 Elite Janissaries are enough for 3. To get 4, you need a unit with boosted attack in the scenario editor.
I feel like it's intentional. Imagine the early tower rushes with a civ like the Chinese. Regarding the ChoKoNu, I'm not surprised, the Chinese civ is the most nerfed civ vis-a-vis its history in the game. For a game, it makes sense because of game balance.
I just started playing aoe2 and i am amazed with how complex this game is. Game from 1999 you would think that it would be so limited in every aspect of gameplay yet it is mindblowing how much work has been put into it, putting new gen rts to shame.
Hey Spirit, are we ever going to get a new road to 1800 video? The last one was from over a year ago, and you promised the next one won't be so late xD
Good overview but a very IMPORTANT point is missing! Extra arrows (not the first one) has a +5 bonus damage against stone defense. Which is critical in tower versus tower fights, 5 ungarrisoned (and unupgraded) towers will deal 5 damages total (5x1) each 2 seconds to another watch tower (7 pierce armor), while a fully villager-garrisoned (and unupgraded) tower will deal 21 damages (1+5x4) each 2 seconds to another watch tower. In short, garrison your towers (with vils or archers) if you go into a tower versus tower fight. EDIT: In my original post I thought tower's arrows were ignoring pierce armour (which would have led to the same numbers and conclusion in the example I choosed) but is technically wrong! Thanks to Jineapple for pointing it out.
It's actually not that it "ignores" pierce armor per se, but the secondary arrows have 5 bonus damage against stone defense (Stone walls and Towers). It does not work against houses for example. Otherwise you're absolutely correct, getting the maximum amount of extra arrows in a tower fight can be crucial.
Was this a feature in the original game? I didn't know you could do it, apart from putting villagers in the town center. Or is it a feature in the new HD version that seems to change a lot of stats
Its because Spirit is so good at explaining the niches of inarguably the hardest RTS to ever exist. Some say its Starcraft 2 but with only 3 races to keep track of? get out of here.
Against units - probably not, given that 10 janissaries cost as much as 5 bombard towers while only adding 2 cannons, and bombard projectiles travel so slow. Against buildings, on the other hand - much better.
There should be a mod that translates the extra shot potential of a bombard tower into increased rate of fire. So the Teutonic bombard tower filled with EJans would fire 3x as fast instead of 2 extra shots. Then all bombard towers would benefit, and it wouldn't be so niche. Besides: most the time those extra shots completely miss.
I love the concept of advancing through the ages , the look of the farms , the sounds of the wood chopping and rock mining....... My 1st love of computer games was the AOE series. And yes I still have nightmares of those red monks chanting on the cliff from the SP campaign even 25 years later
@@christopherg2347 Rightwing propoganda? Those discount store commies create propoganda against themselves every time their mouths open xD You'd know, if you would simply take the time to look..
you should actually use crossbowmen/hand cannons to get the extra arrow faster, use infantry only if you don't have anything else or for the healing effect. Teutons should rely on foward castles and towers to cover their slow infantry/cavalry. Also, remember you don't always need to put 10 crossbows/HC inside a tower or 20 inside a castle. Check the plus arrow number "(+1)" when it reach the max nomber like 6 for tower you're done, HC are specially good for this if you want to have that extra punch.
@@ScudForEver I disagree on using archers, because they don't have to and really shouldn't. Teutons have relatively terrible archers, and even hand Cannoneers aren't actually that great when against anything but infantry; they have high damage, sure, but they're not effected by blacksmith upgrades and they fire almost half as fast as regular archers, so in reality, the arrows they add isn't that good. A FU Arbalest does 5.9 DPS vs a HC's 4.9, for example. So if you invest in them, you've got frail and expensive infantry counters, when you already have the most durable infantry in the game. Only a fool would use massed infantry against a Teuton player. The true power comes when you realize Teuton Infantry can do something no other civ can; be both an infantry and an archer depending on the situation. Fighting enemy cavalry and spam them with Halbs, only for them to switch to archers? Garrison them and suddenly a single Keep can hit as hard as a castle, and heal your units at the same time. They send in rams to take out the keep? Just ungarrison, kill the rams, and garrison again. By the time they try again, your units will be full health, since in DE they heal 6 health every 8 seconds. Archers wont trade efficiently with a garrisoned tower. Cav wont trade efficiently, they'll just ungarrison. Rams definitely wont trade efficiently. Basically the only way to take that Keep out is with BBC or Trebs, and at that point 1 tower and 10 halbs are forcing them to focus their entire economy on a fraction of yours. You basically have a unit that is both anti-cavalry AND anti-infantry AND anti-archer. Even anti-siege to a certain extent, as a FU Keep garrisoned with halbs can kill 3 siege onagers easily before dying.
@@demiserofd I'm not saying you need to use archers all the time, but usually when the pop cap is relative low or the map is too big, is a good idea to have a few hand cannoneers or archers to make your insane castles and tower extra powerfull, remember that 10 hand cannoneers gives the bombard tower a second projectile, something TK can't do. You should usually use your castles to provide fire support to TKs while some monks with their extra healing range heals them from the safe distance of a castle. The real problem, obviously, is all the strategies with Teutons you can thing of implies larges quatities of gold and stone, they lack a cheap and powerful trash units or economic bonus to their gold generation, in 1 vs 1 you would have to rely on having lots of farm to exchange food for gold. Lastly, the Crenellations tech, not only makes you infantry shot extra arrow from your own buildings, it also work inside allies buildings, so it is like a hidden team bonus where you can make -if you have the spare of resources/pop cap- cheap pikeman/halbs to make all your allies castles stronger.
@@martinspelunker2994 In WoW he mained a frost mage who can root you in ice and slow you with frost spells. Almost no melee class could really fight them. Druids can shapeshift around their animal forms to get out of both roots and slows so he nerfed us so we couldn't shapeshift out of roots anymore. Slows we still could but the ice root defensive spells were the ones with long cooldowns. Almost every other spell they had could apply a cold slow so us retaining our removal of slows wasn't really a big deal. GC was a scrub.
@@sejfzlrrhman Video hosting sites existed as early as 1997. Also, an analysis doesn't require a video in order to be presented. People used to buy gaming magazines like Nintendo Power and whatnot.
Another little detail is that Towers/Castles shoot individual units all at one time, rather than potentially dispersed across different enemy units when the archers are on the own not garrisoned. When busy doing something else on the map, this could help a lot as automatically the garrisoned units will try to eliminate enemy units one by one, without us having to click and direct them to do so.
Lmao I sent this to my niece just to be random and to test if she would watch it and she goes "is this for a game? I don't play this game" but then like 20 minutes later she texts me back like "sounds like it's better to garrison" guess your videos are irresistible 😂
its amazing, there are less people playing aoe2 than viewers on your videos which consist of competitive level aoe2 things. I don't play either. Good job!
You can also read up on it here: www.aoe2sheet.info/knowledge_base.html#multiple-arrows There's a couple of additional points to mention: - It's explained in the video, but the formula is not expliciately mentioned: It's (total unit dps) / (building dps), rounded down. And dps is the ranged attack divided by the reload time (The theoretical one in data, the delay for extra arrows is not taken into account). Just to clarify how exactly that works. - Attack bonuses are not considered for this calculation. If you have genoese crossbowmen vs. cavalry, garrisoning means you lose out on their anti-cavalry bonus. Same for Skirms vs. Archers etc. - However, the extra arrows of towers have a bonus vs. stone defense (stone walls, towers). Against those, garrisoning thus results in more total damage - Accuracy is not taken into account. As a result, units with low accuracy but high attack are great for garrisoning (Arambai and Janissaries are the best units for this). - Only the first arrow is affected by hills/cliffs. That's why in a tower vs. tower war, elevation does not matter. - Chu Ko Nu's doing so badly is a bug (probably). It only counts their secondary arrow (which does 3 damage). As they have a base fire rate of 3 (not counting the delay that the extra arrows cause) that results in a measly 1 dps, obviously lower than what they actually do. - Bombard Towers can also fire multiple shots (theoretical maximum of 3 extra), though you can only notice this with Teutons in-game. Due to a difference in the data, you actually need to add dps for 2 extra shots for the first extra cannonball to appear. After that the increase is linear again.
After watching your videos for a few months, I'm realizing that AOE2 is one of the greatest games ever made hands down. There was a whole universe on that disc back in '99, unreal.
I think you can split the arrows into different directions (especially with castles when fully garrisoned with archers) when you click on to another enemy unit halfway through the castle's firing.
Finally after months of waiting im glad you made this video and included the teutons tech becose i rly wanted to know becose when playing got overhaul i usally play as p4 and i always wonder should i garisson archers or mele units i decided on mele units since they have more uses and i cant compere to the p3s archers anyway thx alot
It is amazing how much thought went into this. Especially when I remember as a kid thinking just build a bunch of fortresses and cramming a ton of guy in would equal a win.
6:10 How this one guy is supposedly using four bows at once. Answer: Actually four arrows. This movie scene shows how to use it. m.th-cam.com/video/nZjwr8Ci0Zg/w-d-xo.html Battal Gazi'nin İntikamı. Cüneyt Arkın :)
You sacrifice damage output and mobility for more range and durability for your archers when you garrison them into a tower. The question should not be "should i garrison them?" but "When should i garrison them?". Its a tactical choice.
Im still confused on some things like does it have to be archers or just archer class? And if that then is it their pierce attack? so could putting skirmisher's or cannoneers in towers be beneficial? Also if that then I read that a villager adds 2.5 attack to next arrow but level 1 skrim has 2 pierce so does that mean that when garrisoning a villager could be better than an archer class unit (skirmisher)?
Pretty sure it's the archer _unit class_ , aka everything with a ranged attack (with the likely exception of unique units like the Throwing Axeman that aren't "true" archer units)
they should've designed the tower to be able to be built both embedded on walls and stand alone. they should've also added the detail that archers be able to patrol on top of the walls. that detail was added in AOE4.
Hey Spirit, it would be awesome to dig a bit further into the towers topic: how does this calculation work for bombard towers? And how about the extra arrows for Japanese towers? Cheers!
Japanese towers just add 2 extra arrows, unrelated to the garrison effect (so there's a max of 6 extra arrows). The formula for bombard towers is the same (unit dps / building dps), except that it always adds 1 less shot than it should. So if you add enough Handcannons for 2 shots (9 of them), one extra shot is being added.
The range increase is usually way more important. The only reason not to get fletching is if you're currently in a tower fight already and only have 4 vills to garrison.
In a pure tower rush yes. Assuming the trush is scouted, it actually favors the defender and not the attacker. In a trush defense, you can wait to build a tower or build your tower outside of range, to avoid taking the tower duel and wait to see what the attacker does and punish them for it. As the attacker, it's very important that you outplay them in some way because you will lose the tower duel. You need the tower to deny a resource, or outplay them using the +range in some other way.
Depends,normal archers or Britain long bowmen?Honestly I say let you do you.I however prefer to probe my enemies kingdom, then raid with onagers and conquistadors,but hey that's just me.
This is my take on the garrisoned Chu Ko Nu: The game disregards the other arrows that the Chu Ko Nu has taking only its primary arrow into account which by itself is lowers its damage count. Another factor is the slower reload time. Combine both and it is easy to see why Chucks have lower contribution than other archers. As for the firing a lot of arrows at the same time, it’s a better ‘feature’(lovely Aoe2 bug) like moon walking units which is OP. The game takes the ratio of the total attack of garrisoned units to the towers attack and rounds it DOWN to an integer. That integer is the no. of additional no. arrows that the tower will fire capped at a maximum of 4 for generic and 8 for Teuton towers.
I'm pretty sure the Chu-Ko-Nu's primary arrow does the damage listed on it's unit icon. The damage isn't divided between all the arrows it fires; it fires one arrow that does 'listed' damage and then bonus arrows that deal the lower damage. That means that the unit is still bugged with towers; look at SotL's comparison of archers to modded skirmishers. Chu-Ko-Nu aren't slow enough that they should get zero extra arrows with several of them in a tower. They do similar damage to a tower, so 5 of them should be worth 2-3 arrows even if they fire significantly slower than the tower.
Oh hey this was released today! So used to old Spirit of the Law vids appearing in my recommendations I didn't even notice lol. Also one thing you failed you mention is if all the arrows have the same accuracy.
@SOTL plz make a DE updated version of this, also touching on arrow slits, yasama, bombard towers, garrisoning different unique units and so forth. It will be a massive hit, sire.
Ghostcrawler! That guy has been part of my gaming life since I started playing Rise of Rome as a kid. Between that and WoW... been sneakily in the background, that guy has.
I've always wondered why the game treats garrisoned units differently - skirmishers and cav. archers for example. And I always assumed that it's because skirms are a trash unit. Either that or their cost. So cool of you to explain how it actually works, thanks!
they will just ungarrison if the tower if brought below a certain health percentage (including when that particular hit destroys the tower, say from a trebuchet)
Despite the fact that getting Fletching means that you need more villagers in the tower to increase the arrows by the same amount, it is still worth it to get Fletching, not just because of the extra range but also because having +1 extra attack is more significant than firing extra arrows, due to the pierce armor of the target. If a tower fires 3 extra arrows with 3 villagers garrisoned (meaning 4 arrows in total), the tower deals 20 base damage, but since each arrow’s 5 damage is decreased by 2 against Villagers because of Loom, therefore actually dealing 3 damage per shot, this means it only deals 12 damage per volley. Whereas if you have Fletching, then garrisoning 3 villagers will only make the tower fire 2 extra arrows (meaning 3 arrows in total rather than 4), dealing 15 base damage; but against villagers with loom, this means the tower will be dealing 4 damage per arrow rather than the previous 3, adding up to 12 damage in total; which is exactly the same as previously. Of course, Fletching also gives the towers extra range, so it is usually a good idea to research. HOWEVER. The pierce damage of the target is sometimes so high that it completely negates the damage anyway, which is the case against buildings, including towers. And towers’ extra arrows deal 5 bonus damage each against opposing towers. This bonus damage is not affected at all by Fletching, and this means that getting Fletching actually is counterproductive in tower wars (not considering the extra range). As is getting the Guard Tower upgrade, which increases damage and therefore decreases amount of extra arrows, but unfortunately doesn’t increase the bonus damage for each arrow to make up for that, meaning that they deal the same damage per arrow against other towers (5 bonus damage), but shoot less arrows. Meaning just less damage in total (although Guard Towers do have extra health over Watch Towers). There is another layer to this though. if you have 5 villagers garrisoned in a non-fletching tower, they don’t increase the tower’s arrow count by 5, since the maximum amount of arrows fired is 5, meaning the extra arrows can only be increased by 4 to make a final arrow count of 5. Whereas if you have Fletching, then garrisoning 5 vills in the tower will make the tower fire 5 arrows; the maximum amount exactly, and the same amount as garrisoning 5 vills _without_ getting Fletching. All this means is that without Fletching, you should only ever garrison 4 villagers in the tower, since adding a 5th one does not do anything. Granted that you are not garrisoning the 5th one just for protection.
Easy Response Is Targer far away? (behind a wall or on the other side of the river? Tower Are they atacked? (there is a threat like knights nearby) Tower Are they fine? Leave them be Rams? Keep them outside Obsidian Arrows? Leave them be outside Teutons? Depends of the unit/how many of them Chu ko nu? Never let them in Mele units as teutons? Depends what are they atacking, if is a building that is defende with range units that cannot reach ur tower? Inside
my guess is that it is better to garrison because not only does the tower have more range but also the archers are now shielded from damage... if you want an ideal solution with most damage output from your units then best method is to: divide the attack of tower by attack of one archer this tells you how many archers you need to garrison per extra arrow (yes, this is the method even for bombard towers... divide its attack by the attack of gunpowder units inside of it and u get number of gunpowder units u need to garrison inside for extra cannon balls... example: they have an attack of about 120 and a janissary has an attack of 22... dividing the two we get roughly 6 janissary per extra cannon ball which u can actually verify by putting 6 of them in a teuton bombard tower which has 10 garrison space instead of 5. you can even use triggers in the custom scenario to get 1000 attack on just one janissary/hand cannon and then garrison just that one into a bombard tower and even a regular bombard tower will shoot out 1000/120 roughly 8 cannon balls (there is an upper limit of 6 tho, you cannot get any number of them)). if you can garrision say 1 archer per extra arrow then garrisoning all archers is a good idea but if say you only get 1 extra arrow per two archers then it is only a good idea to garrision 4 instead of 5 as the last archer wont add an arrow and will just go idle. instead keeping it outside increases damge output
So basically, towers are best for point defense and extending the life of your archers. In that way, they can act as a substitute for an infantry or cavalry wall if you can't field a large enough army in time. The towers also have way more hp than units, so unless the enemy is fielding trebuchets, it's better to garrison in the event of an all-out attack. Just make sure you have murder holes.
It's like the mob Hey this is Spirit, he's a friend of mine. (Not connected) Hey this is Spirit, he's a friend of ours (connected guy) Hey this is Spirit, he's a Goodfella
The "More arrows - slower firing rate" anomaly is (IMO) caused by firing an arrow not being instant but taking a little time. This is most noticeable on castles full with archers. Visual example: 1 arrow: Fire-RELOAD-Fire-RELOAD 3 arrows: Fire-Fire-Fire-RELOAD-Fire-Fire-Fire-RELOAD
1 archer with 1000 damage fires 4 extra arrow while 5 chu ko nu fires 0 extra arrow. what is this logic. chu ko nu are having sex in the tower or something?
Havent played AOE2 in about 15 years. Currently watching a video on the mathematical benefits of garrisoning archers because TH-cam algorithms obviously?!? Fuck sake TH-cam...
Aha, I actually do know something on this!
He's right that the towers don't reload until all arrows have been launched. You can confirm this by modding in a crazy high garrison cap to a tower, and adding like 100 archers. The tower shoots a super long barrage of arrows, then waits a short moment before it restarts again. If there was no wait, it would never stop shooting.
I need to do this now. Like, machine gun tower. Sounds amazing.
I did this with the Ethiopian silver tech. TC shoots like a machine gun!
The behavior is based on the *class* of the unit. Units of siege weapon class shoot all of their projectiles in one frame. All other classes shoot projectiles one by one, and the speed can be affected by the attribute *attack delay frames* too.
Onagers: shoot[reload]shoot[reload]
Castles: sssss[reload]sssss[reload]
Elite Chu-ko-nus: s-----s-----s-----s-----s-----[reload]s-----s-----s-----s-----s-----[reload] (5 attack delay frames)
Khmer Scorpion: s-------s-------[reload]s-------s-------[reload] (class ballista, 7 attack delay frames)
The delay between firing has some randomness to it.
@@kevintrang3007 Wait, don't you mean the *Malian* tech Tigui?
Edit: Sorry I forgot this was a 6 month old comment haha
try this with the Celt's Stronghold tech with the x256 mod. Laser towers & castles is a sight to see (Note towers fire a single straight line of arrows rather than the "spread" from garrisoned archers so the laser is 100% accurate
Many people here don't even play aoe2 but still watch your videos...it's amazing
I play a game like it and am trying to get good for when I buy AoE2
Me about 10 years ago
I don't play AOE but I love how he delves into mechanics of the game, I love listening to stuff like that.
I reinstalled the game ( this time DE). Thanks to him
@@Neethinify ✌🏻👍🏻
You forgot perhaps the most important aspect; Towers have substantially more raw damage, meaning they do far more damage to high armor units. Against fully upgraded paladins, for example, 3 arbalests will do 12 damage, but garrisoned, they will do 16.
I love the logic here
There is one thing you forgot to mention:
Bombard towers
Yasama too
@@kirimaruisao4094 Yasama?
@@RokeJulianLockhart.s4eb2q Japanese thing
garrison elite jannisaries in bombard tower
*TWO CANNONBALLS*
galliman123 yup it’s op against the ai
Can you rework the Teuton civiliation overview ?
maybe he should do it in AoE2DE
Seems very fitting to redo the overview of a civilization with garrison bonuses after a video about garrison mechanics.
Worst civilization in the game😝
@@salildeshpande7 That is the Vietnamese.
@@KaiserFranzGaming khmer
Missed opportunity to mention teutonic bombard towers.
1 Tower full of Elite Genonese Corssbows fires 4 canon balls at once! :D
zerto111 really? I thought it was you could get 2 cannons from a bbt with the teuton if you garrison 10 hand cannons!
@@muhammadawan8919 i know you can get 3 if you put 10 elite jannisaries in
never heard about the genose crossbow thing but based on the numbers it should be impossible
Zerto is just kidding. 10 GXbows only give one extra shot.
Bombard Towers can fire up to 4 cannon balls at once, but Genoese Crossbowmen don't have enough dps for that. 10 Elite Janissaries are enough for 3. To get 4, you need a unit with boosted attack in the scenario editor.
@@freefallintoflames Apparently in the latest HD edition patch bombard towers don't ever get extra cannon balls regardless of your unit stats. Bummer!
The fact that tower with villagers gets weaker as you upgrade its attack feels like an oversight, same for the Chu Ko Nus.
I feel like it's intentional. Imagine the early tower rushes with a civ like the Chinese. Regarding the ChoKoNu, I'm not surprised, the Chinese civ is the most nerfed civ vis-a-vis its history in the game. For a game, it makes sense because of game balance.
I just started playing aoe2 and i am amazed with how complex this game is. Game from 1999 you would think that it would be so limited in every aspect of gameplay yet it is mindblowing how much work has been put into it, putting new gen rts to shame.
People are Stupid today, look back .. a Lot of tecnology, creativy, etc. The chess game, computer, space,
Hey Spirit, are we ever going to get a new road to 1800 video? The last one was from over a year ago, and you promised the next one won't be so late xD
I believe he realized that he doesn't like playing for ELO. Just for fun.
Data Mining would be a better focus tbh
Good overview but a very IMPORTANT point is missing!
Extra arrows (not the first one) has a +5 bonus damage against stone defense.
Which is critical in tower versus tower fights, 5 ungarrisoned (and unupgraded) towers will deal 5 damages total (5x1) each 2 seconds to another watch tower (7 pierce armor), while a fully villager-garrisoned (and unupgraded) tower will deal 21 damages (1+5x4) each 2 seconds to another watch tower.
In short, garrison your towers (with vils or archers) if you go into a tower versus tower fight.
EDIT: In my original post I thought tower's arrows were ignoring pierce armour (which would have led to the same numbers and conclusion in the example I choosed) but is technically wrong! Thanks to Jineapple for pointing it out.
It's actually not that it "ignores" pierce armor per se, but the secondary arrows have 5 bonus damage against stone defense (Stone walls and Towers). It does not work against houses for example. Otherwise you're absolutely correct, getting the maximum amount of extra arrows in a tower fight can be crucial.
@@freefallintoflames Oops, thanks a lot for the precision, sorry for the intox, I'll edit that.
Jineapple are castles labeled as stone defense?
@@sharktrap267 Apparently not:
ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Armor_class:_Stone_defense
(This website is a gold mine btw =) )
@@sharktrap267 No, they have a seperate armor class.
What about a video about Civilizations voices?
this
Sounds good.
*Samsung intensifies*
das eht zoel
i dont know why i'm watching this. i havent played this game in 17 years....
Never too late to pick it up again! :) It's even grown since, with three new expansions.
Was this a feature in the original game? I didn't know you could do it, apart from putting villagers in the town center. Or is it a feature in the new HD version that seems to change a lot of stats
@@johnhackney6466 I think this is feature from the original game
i never even play this game
Its because Spirit is so good at explaining the niches of inarguably the hardest RTS to ever exist.
Some say its Starcraft 2 but with only 3 races to keep track of? get out of here.
The moonwalking elephant at 1:18 xD
If I'm not mistaken didn't the intro song go away for a few videos? Glad its back if thats the case.
The intro didn't show if the video is short
Tom Easton As he said in a video of “Answering comments”, the intro won’t appear in “top five” type videos
The effort, the math, the intro. I love these videos.
next video, "is it worth to put 10 jennisar on a teuton tower and have 3 canon balls instead of 1?" :D
Against units - probably not, given that 10 janissaries cost as much as 5 bombard towers while only adding 2 cannons, and bombard projectiles travel so slow.
Against buildings, on the other hand - much better.
There should be a mod that translates the extra shot potential of a bombard tower into increased rate of fire. So the Teutonic bombard tower filled with EJans would fire 3x as fast instead of 2 extra shots. Then all bombard towers would benefit, and it wouldn't be so niche. Besides: most the time those extra shots completely miss.
I love the concept of advancing through the ages , the look of the farms , the sounds of the wood chopping and rock mining.......
My 1st love of computer games was the AOE series.
And yes I still have nightmares of those red monks chanting on the cliff from the SP campaign even 25 years later
SP?
@@Nunos645cgh single player?
Just 27 years left until Supremacy movie
*a lot* can happen in 27 years these days...
I still expect someone somewhere will be asking about the Supremacy movie.
What if after 27 years the SJWs make the movie woke?
@@satyakisil4289 Could you stop throwing your rightwing propganda around for this discussion? Thanks.
@@christopherg2347 No I can't kappa
@@christopherg2347
Rightwing propoganda? Those discount store commies create propoganda against themselves every time their mouths open xD
You'd know, if you would simply take the time to look..
I wish aoe4 mechanics are more realistic so that you can garrison on walls (can be balanced by adding ammunition mechanic)
I always loved playing as the Teutons and using their garrisoned infantry gimmick. Now I finally understand how they work.
Teutons renake please?
you should actually use crossbowmen/hand cannons to get the extra arrow faster, use infantry only if you don't have anything else or for the healing effect. Teutons should rely on foward castles and towers to cover their slow infantry/cavalry. Also, remember you don't always need to put 10 crossbows/HC inside a tower or 20 inside a castle. Check the plus arrow number "(+1)" when it reach the max nomber like 6 for tower you're done, HC are specially good for this if you want to have that extra punch.
@@ScudForEver I disagree on using archers, because they don't have to and really shouldn't. Teutons have relatively terrible archers, and even hand Cannoneers aren't actually that great when against anything but infantry; they have high damage, sure, but they're not effected by blacksmith upgrades and they fire almost half as fast as regular archers, so in reality, the arrows they add isn't that good. A FU Arbalest does 5.9 DPS vs a HC's 4.9, for example.
So if you invest in them, you've got frail and expensive infantry counters, when you already have the most durable infantry in the game. Only a fool would use massed infantry against a Teuton player.
The true power comes when you realize Teuton Infantry can do something no other civ can; be both an infantry and an archer depending on the situation. Fighting enemy cavalry and spam them with Halbs, only for them to switch to archers? Garrison them and suddenly a single Keep can hit as hard as a castle, and heal your units at the same time. They send in rams to take out the keep? Just ungarrison, kill the rams, and garrison again. By the time they try again, your units will be full health, since in DE they heal 6 health every 8 seconds.
Archers wont trade efficiently with a garrisoned tower. Cav wont trade efficiently, they'll just ungarrison. Rams definitely wont trade efficiently. Basically the only way to take that Keep out is with BBC or Trebs, and at that point 1 tower and 10 halbs are forcing them to focus their entire economy on a fraction of yours. You basically have a unit that is both anti-cavalry AND anti-infantry AND anti-archer. Even anti-siege to a certain extent, as a FU Keep garrisoned with halbs can kill 3 siege onagers easily before dying.
@@demiserofd I'm not saying you need to use archers all the time, but usually when the pop cap is relative low or the map is too big, is a good idea to have a few hand cannoneers or archers to make your insane castles and tower extra powerfull, remember that 10 hand cannoneers gives the bombard tower a second projectile, something TK can't do. You should usually use your castles to provide fire support to TKs while some monks with their extra healing range heals them from the safe distance of a castle.
The real problem, obviously, is all the strategies with Teutons you can thing of implies larges quatities of gold and stone, they lack a cheap and powerful trash units or economic bonus to their gold generation, in 1 vs 1 you would have to rely on having lots of farm to exchange food for gold.
Lastly, the Crenellations tech, not only makes you infantry shot extra arrow from your own buildings, it also work inside allies buildings, so it is like a hidden team bonus where you can make -if you have the spare of resources/pop cap- cheap pikeman/halbs to make all your allies castles stronger.
Whoa, some really good in depth information even from the comment section
:0
So, what about the elevation bonus?
It's not added.
I think the bonus is applied to first arrow only
Your tenacity to keep going with this theme is fantastic. I keep finding myself going back to this channel
Nice mathy video which i love. You could consider about hand cannoneers as they are archers and interaction with bombard towers as well.
Hey guys spirit of the regular uploads here xd
Wait, Greg Street worked on AoE2!?!?! The Blizzard / Riot guy!? Wth cool!
Yes, the same guy who said ranged unit / champion are more skilled than melee unit, because they have range
Greg 'Ghostcrawler' Street. The one and only.
Not all that cool. Guy was completely biased to his own characters and would nerf counters to what he played. Total tool.
Yikes, didn't know about that... Don't know if I am too hyped over the fact that he worked on AoE2 anymore :/
@@martinspelunker2994 In WoW he mained a frost mage who can root you in ice and slow you with frost spells. Almost no melee class could really fight them. Druids can shapeshift around their animal forms to get out of both roots and slows so he nerfed us so we couldn't shapeshift out of roots anymore. Slows we still could but the ice root defensive spells were the ones with long cooldowns. Almost every other spell they had could apply a cold slow so us retaining our removal of slows wasn't really a big deal. GC was a scrub.
I really could've used this analysis 20 years ago!
Before the era of TH-cam?
@@sejfzlrrhman Video hosting sites existed as early as 1997. Also, an analysis doesn't require a video in order to be presented. People used to buy gaming magazines like Nintendo Power and whatnot.
Our week will be blessed now, thank you Mr. Spirit.
Also do you bother with the facebook page anymore?
Another little detail is that Towers/Castles shoot individual units all at one time, rather than potentially dispersed across different enemy units when the archers are on the own not garrisoned. When busy doing something else on the map, this could help a lot as automatically the garrisoned units will try to eliminate enemy units one by one, without us having to click and direct them to do so.
Speaking about Teutons, we need top 5 Defensive Civs!
Can you please list all the background music(s) you use in your videos pls pls pls
hey Spirit , can you please make a top 5 navi civs overview....
Legend has it if your fast enough, spirit will like your Comment
You blew it
I love how you explore the game in depth in a very scientific way, asking questions, testing and working with actual numbers and stuff! Cheers!
Lmao I sent this to my niece just to be random and to test if she would watch it and she goes "is this for a game? I don't play this game" but then like 20 minutes later she texts me back like "sounds like it's better to garrison" guess your videos are irresistible 😂
LOL
I feel dumb. I never noticed that putting them in the towers will shoot more.
its amazing, there are less people playing aoe2 than viewers on your videos which consist of competitive level aoe2 things.
I don't play either. Good job!
You can also read up on it here: www.aoe2sheet.info/knowledge_base.html#multiple-arrows
There's a couple of additional points to mention:
- It's explained in the video, but the formula is not expliciately mentioned: It's (total unit dps) / (building dps), rounded down. And dps is the ranged attack divided by the reload time (The theoretical one in data, the delay for extra arrows is not taken into account). Just to clarify how exactly that works.
- Attack bonuses are not considered for this calculation. If you have genoese crossbowmen vs. cavalry, garrisoning means you lose out on their anti-cavalry bonus. Same for Skirms vs. Archers etc.
- However, the extra arrows of towers have a bonus vs. stone defense (stone walls, towers). Against those, garrisoning thus results in more total damage
- Accuracy is not taken into account. As a result, units with low accuracy but high attack are great for garrisoning (Arambai and Janissaries are the best units for this).
- Only the first arrow is affected by hills/cliffs. That's why in a tower vs. tower war, elevation does not matter.
- Chu Ko Nu's doing so badly is a bug (probably). It only counts their secondary arrow (which does 3 damage). As they have a base fire rate of 3 (not counting the delay that the extra arrows cause) that results in a measly 1 dps, obviously lower than what they actually do.
- Bombard Towers can also fire multiple shots (theoretical maximum of 3 extra), though you can only notice this with Teutons in-game. Due to a difference in the data, you actually need to add dps for 2 extra shots for the first extra cannonball to appear. After that the increase is linear again.
HOLY SH*T :D i never even thought about how much work has been put into this mechanic. I just sorta assumed it worked... somehow :D
Good to know towers are still dissapointing, thanks Spirit!
This is actually pretty complicated if you’re a beginner. How many archers should I put in a tower, and what type?
After watching your videos for a few months, I'm realizing that AOE2 is one of the greatest games ever made hands down. There was a whole universe on that disc back in '99, unreal.
I wonder how elevation damage factors in. Seemingly not at all.
It’s one bow with 4 arrows not four bows.
I think you can split the arrows into different directions (especially with castles when fully garrisoned with archers) when you click on to another enemy unit halfway through the castle's firing.
Finally after months of waiting im glad you made this video and included the teutons tech becose i rly wanted to know becose when playing got overhaul i usally play as p4 and i always wonder should i garisson archers or mele units i decided on mele units since they have more uses and i cant compere to the p3s archers anyway thx alot
To anyone who might know: How does this effect stack with Arrow Slits, if at all?
Greetings from Denmark!
So what would be the most cost effective unit for max arrows? Or for a “teuton 8”
I have no idea why I enjoy those so much, I mean, I would never be good enough to actually be using this knowledge.
Oh I have never been so quick to watch before.
It is amazing how much thought went into this. Especially when I remember as a kid thinking just build a bunch of fortresses and cramming a ton of guy in would equal a win.
6:10 How this one guy is supposedly using four bows at once.
Answer: Actually four arrows.
This movie scene shows how to use it.
m.th-cam.com/video/nZjwr8Ci0Zg/w-d-xo.html
Battal Gazi'nin İntikamı. Cüneyt Arkın :)
i used to build 4 towers around my tc and put skirms in them for extra arrows
god was i a noob
You are still a noob
i should be around 1750 on hd now i dont think that qualifies as noob
You sacrifice damage output and mobility for more range and durability for your archers when you garrison them into a tower. The question should not be "should i garrison them?" but "When should i garrison them?". Its a tactical choice.
You sir demonstrate profoundly the difference between "knowing, understanding, and comprehending." Kudos.
Im still confused on some things like does it have to be archers or just archer class? And if that then is it their pierce attack? so could putting skirmisher's or cannoneers in towers be beneficial? Also if that then I read that a villager adds 2.5 attack to next arrow but level 1 skrim has 2 pierce so does that mean that when garrisoning a villager could be better than an archer class unit (skirmisher)?
Pretty sure it's the archer _unit class_ , aka everything with a ranged attack (with the likely exception of unique units like the Throwing Axeman that aren't "true" archer units)
they should've designed the tower to be able to be built both embedded on walls and stand alone. they should've also added the detail that archers be able to patrol on top of the walls. that detail was added in AOE4.
Hey Spirit, it would be awesome to dig a bit further into the towers topic: how does this calculation work for bombard towers? And how about the extra arrows for Japanese towers? Cheers!
Japanese towers just add 2 extra arrows, unrelated to the garrison effect (so there's a max of 6 extra arrows). The formula for bombard towers is the same (unit dps / building dps), except that it always adds 1 less shot than it should. So if you add enough Handcannons for 2 shots (9 of them), one extra shot is being added.
What about hand canoneers?
So, basically, if you're going for a tower rush, there's absolutely no reason to get fletching unless you're also going for archers.
The range increase is usually way more important. The only reason not to get fletching is if you're currently in a tower fight already and only have 4 vills to garrison.
In a pure tower rush yes. Assuming the trush is scouted, it actually favors the defender and not the attacker. In a trush defense, you can wait to build a tower or build your tower outside of range, to avoid taking the tower duel and wait to see what the attacker does and punish them for it. As the attacker, it's very important that you outplay them in some way because you will lose the tower duel. You need the tower to deny a resource, or outplay them using the +range in some other way.
This is quite insightful. I often tend to turtle myself with Koreans, but the Teuton's 8 arrows are quite tempting. 👀
Depends,normal archers or Britain long bowmen?Honestly I say let you do you.I however prefer to probe my enemies kingdom, then raid with onagers and conquistadors,but hey that's just me.
This is my take on the garrisoned Chu Ko Nu: The game disregards the other arrows that the Chu Ko Nu has taking only its primary arrow into account which by itself is lowers its damage count. Another factor is the slower reload time. Combine both and it is easy to see why Chucks have lower contribution than other archers.
As for the firing a lot of arrows at the same time, it’s a better ‘feature’(lovely Aoe2 bug) like moon walking units which is OP.
The game takes the ratio of the total attack of garrisoned units to the towers attack and rounds it DOWN to an integer. That integer is the no. of additional no. arrows that the tower will fire capped at a maximum of 4 for generic and 8 for Teuton towers.
I'm pretty sure the Chu-Ko-Nu's primary arrow does the damage listed on it's unit icon. The damage isn't divided between all the arrows it fires; it fires one arrow that does 'listed' damage and then bonus arrows that deal the lower damage.
That means that the unit is still bugged with towers; look at SotL's comparison of archers to modded skirmishers. Chu-Ko-Nu aren't slow enough that they should get zero extra arrows with several of them in a tower. They do similar damage to a tower, so 5 of them should be worth 2-3 arrows even if they fire significantly slower than the tower.
Oh hey this was released today! So used to old Spirit of the Law vids appearing in my recommendations I didn't even notice lol.
Also one thing you failed you mention is if all the arrows have the same accuracy.
@SOTL plz make a DE updated version of this, also touching on arrow slits, yasama, bombard towers, garrisoning different unique units and so forth. It will be a massive hit, sire.
Do Goths villagers have more pierce attack or simply an attack bonus vs. hunt?
Attack bonus
Excellent Choice!
Was hoping for an executive summary - should one do it or not.
Ghostcrawler! That guy has been part of my gaming life since I started playing Rise of Rome as a kid. Between that and WoW... been sneakily in the background, that guy has.
I've always wondered why the game treats garrisoned units differently - skirmishers and cav. archers for example. And I always assumed that it's because skirms are a trash unit. Either that or their cost. So cool of you to explain how it actually works, thanks!
What will happen to the units garrisoned if the watch tower is brought down?
they will just ungarrison if the tower if brought below a certain health percentage (including when that particular hit destroys the tower, say from a trebuchet)
Here I am watching this vid in 2019, not having played the game in over 10 years.
4:45 Chu ko nu or Chu no nu ?
UwU
If this was on a test, id fail miserable
i am not kidding, DRIVING A CAR IS LESS COMPLICATED
Despite the fact that getting Fletching means that you need more villagers in the tower to increase the arrows by the same amount, it is still worth it to get Fletching, not just because of the extra range but also because having +1 extra attack is more significant than firing extra arrows, due to the pierce armor of the target.
If a tower fires 3 extra arrows with 3 villagers garrisoned (meaning 4 arrows in total), the tower deals 20 base damage, but since each arrow’s 5 damage is decreased by 2 against Villagers because of Loom, therefore actually dealing 3 damage per shot, this means it only deals 12 damage per volley.
Whereas if you have Fletching, then garrisoning 3 villagers will only make the tower fire 2 extra arrows (meaning 3 arrows in total rather than 4), dealing 15 base damage; but against villagers with loom, this means the tower will be dealing 4 damage per arrow rather than the previous 3, adding up to 12 damage in total; which is exactly the same as previously.
Of course, Fletching also gives the towers extra range, so it is usually a good idea to research.
HOWEVER. The pierce damage of the target is sometimes so high that it completely negates the damage anyway, which is the case against buildings, including towers. And towers’ extra arrows deal 5 bonus damage each against opposing towers. This bonus damage is not affected at all by Fletching, and this means that getting Fletching actually is counterproductive in tower wars (not considering the extra range). As is getting the Guard Tower upgrade, which increases damage and therefore decreases amount of extra arrows, but unfortunately doesn’t increase the bonus damage for each arrow to make up for that, meaning that they deal the same damage per arrow against other towers (5 bonus damage), but shoot less arrows. Meaning just less damage in total (although Guard Towers do have extra health over Watch Towers).
There is another layer to this though.
if you have 5 villagers garrisoned in a non-fletching tower, they don’t increase the tower’s arrow count by 5, since the maximum amount of arrows fired is 5, meaning the extra arrows can only be increased by 4 to make a final arrow count of 5.
Whereas if you have Fletching, then garrisoning 5 vills in the tower will make the tower fire 5 arrows; the maximum amount exactly, and the same amount as garrisoning 5 vills _without_ getting Fletching.
All this means is that without Fletching, you should only ever garrison 4 villagers in the tower, since adding a 5th one does not do anything. Granted that you are not garrisoning the 5th one just for protection.
Easy Response
Is Targer far away? (behind a wall or on the other side of the river? Tower
Are they atacked? (there is a threat like knights nearby) Tower
Are they fine? Leave them be
Rams? Keep them outside
Obsidian Arrows? Leave them be outside
Teutons? Depends of the unit/how many of them
Chu ko nu? Never let them in
Mele units as teutons? Depends what are they atacking, if is a building that is defende with range units that cannot reach ur tower? Inside
The fact that I'm still learning new stuff I had never even considered before about a game that's been out for two decades blows me away
my guess is that it is better to garrison because not only does the tower have more range but also the archers are now shielded from damage...
if you want an ideal solution with most damage output from your units then best method is to:
divide the attack of tower by attack of one archer this tells you how many archers you need to garrison per extra arrow (yes, this is the method even for bombard towers... divide its attack by the attack of gunpowder units inside of it and u get number of gunpowder units u need to garrison inside for extra cannon balls... example: they have an attack of about 120 and a janissary has an attack of 22... dividing the two we get roughly 6 janissary per extra cannon ball which u can actually verify by putting 6 of them in a teuton bombard tower which has 10 garrison space instead of 5. you can even use triggers in the custom scenario to get 1000 attack on just one janissary/hand cannon and then garrison just that one into a bombard tower and even a regular bombard tower will shoot out 1000/120 roughly 8 cannon balls (there is an upper limit of 6 tho, you cannot get any number of them)). if you can garrision say 1 archer per extra arrow then garrisoning all archers is a good idea but if say you only get 1 extra arrow per two archers then it is only a good idea to garrision 4 instead of 5 as the last archer wont add an arrow and will just go idle. instead keeping it outside increases damge output
Great video. You did forget to touch on Bombard towers and the interactions of different ranged units, e.g. hand cannoneers and janissaries.
So basically, towers are best for point defense and extending the life of your archers. In that way, they can act as a substitute for an infantry or cavalry wall if you can't field a large enough army in time. The towers also have way more hp than units, so unless the enemy is fielding trebuchets, it's better to garrison in the event of an all-out attack. Just make sure you have murder holes.
SOTL never watched LOTR, cause he don't know about Legolas multiarrow attacks!
6:08 Excellent use of MS paint.
How is one guy using four bows at once?
Maybe he is a generic half-even dual class ranger.
Please redo for Def edition
Is there benefit in garrisoning longbowmen in British castle? How will that affect the attack?
Might I be the first to express the sentiment, "Fucking finally I always wanted to know this!!"
After so long
Should you garrison Skirmisher? (especially in the town center?)
"Oh, great! A new T90-video!
*Watches almost the whole thing, until:
TH-cam NOTIFICATION: Spirit of the Law uploaded...
Me: Bye T90! See you later!
*cries in salmon*
So does Spirit of the Law have a Dev on speed dial these days?
He is like Falcon. "I know a guy."
But really, more likely he was reading a interview of some sort.
It's like the mob
Hey this is Spirit, he's a friend of mine. (Not connected)
Hey this is Spirit, he's a friend of ours (connected guy)
Hey this is Spirit, he's a Goodfella
Must be the same guys that designed quantum mechanics... only, to be fair they did a better job with AOE.
The "More arrows - slower firing rate" anomaly is (IMO) caused by firing an arrow not being instant but taking a little time. This is most noticeable on castles full with archers. Visual example:
1 arrow:
Fire-RELOAD-Fire-RELOAD
3 arrows:
Fire-Fire-Fire-RELOAD-Fire-Fire-Fire-RELOAD
I'm having a déjà-vu!
I was hoping you'd go deeper in how the extra base attack of a tower would help against Pierce armor (e.g. against pallisade walls)
1 archer with 1000 damage fires 4 extra arrow while 5 chu ko nu fires 0 extra arrow. what is this logic. chu ko nu are having sex in the tower or something?
I never played this game. So why did I watch the full video?
Havent played AOE2 in about 15 years. Currently watching a video on the mathematical benefits of garrisoning archers because TH-cam algorithms obviously?!? Fuck sake TH-cam...
wow that was surprisingly complicated good job....
Chu Ko Nu
Heres a question : can ya do a video on Hold Ground vs agressive vs defensive stances. I wanna see their effects in battle.
Wh.... What? Now that is a really important thing to know..... Too bad i nolonger can play AoE2 But I SHALL RETURN once i get a new pc... T. T