Also be on the lookout for floating-point precision errors. Sometimes there will be number that should be, say, exactly equal to 2, but due to small errors ends up being around 1.99. The floor is taken here, giving a value of 1 when we might have expected 2. You can replicate this error by garrisoning Elite Skirmishers into a Castle: there will be a point where the number of arrows you get and the number you expect from the formula is inconsistent.
@@daanwilmer Thankfully they removed this but they filled that whole desert area of the map with trees. It used to say keep exploring the map even at 100% map explored.
@@T-West you have way too much power in your hands... ...also was expecting the same champion from the beginning of the vid, but instead being on steroids and doing it 300-style against an army.
I am so happy there’s 25 minutes of your content. I dont’ even play aoe2 anymore, but still I thoroughly enjoy your analyses. Fresh as SOTL was couple years ago!
"Lamer" "Target Practice" "Heavy Armor Swimming Lessons" "20 Elephants Fit in a Castle" "Incomplete Wall" "Eles have lots of HP" "Doucher" "Nomad Doucher"
all i know is that there was a much simpler and accurate-r way to do this. instead of adding projectiles, have garrisoned units increase attack speed in pace with the DPS of units garrisoned. instead of showering 20 arrows every 3 seconds, fire one arrow every 0.15 seconds. much easier to have intermediary values be more accurate this way.
I feel like the best solution to the weirdness would simply be to remove attack upgrades from the calculation on the side of the building. Especially since garrisons typically only add “additional” projectiles that aren’t effected by the upgrades anyway. This would remove the annoying downside of fletching in feudal tower wars. Awesome video T-West! Love how much detail was explored here
I absolutely love how much depth you've put into this video!! SotL did a similar one, but it didn't cover every single case, didn't show it perfectly mathematically, and didn't cover non-existent cases by using the editor. You've also given me ideas to make a campaign with a sword man that shoots fireballs x)
Hey T-West. I want to thank you for saving my eye sight by refraining from the use of the Small Trees mod in your videos 👍 P.S. That end screen was great!
King: Our kingdom researched fletching. Let's shoot more and kill! Vil: Your majesty the technology is too advanced we actually don't know how to shoot...... King: ...... Sacre Bleu .......
oh damn that bombard tower part with a billion shots is great to take a nap to. i was listening to it with my eyes closed and suddenly i was at a waterfall. great stuff. woke up when it stopped :()
it's counterintuitive things like this that make me always appreciate people who put the time in to lab out mechanics and not just go on feeling or what top players are doing. I'm mostly sure that a lot of top players while very familiar with specific niche game mechanics may not have been aware of the this tower interaction with fletching and a hill and have just been doing things naturally for so long they may have actually been hurting their own gameplay and yet would have been referenced by newer players looking for the correct thing to do in situations. TLDR: trust the person that labbed something and that you can replicate with testing out rather than a top player going off of feeling or something they have been doing for years so it must be right.
I'd be very wary about doubting the knowledge of expert players. Knowing very specific details can help, but having a feel for how to macro is much, much, much important when it comes to playing Aoe2.
@@T-West Oh I fully agree. The majority of the time it's correct to assume the top player is correct. However, I more meant the tendency of people to just assume the top player is doing everything right simply because they are a top player when it's entirely possible they are doing something very wrong but it's hidden behind the many other things they are doing right to overshadow the mistake and this dismissing suggestions of even trying something else. Not only in AOE but in other games you don't know how many times people will dismiss some suggestion to try something or test something specific that may be better because "X top person says it's bad or does the exact opposite" without any exact numbers backing it up or even considering that someone can be a great player while still having small flaws in their game.
I think the issue with Kreposts was that the "building pierce attack" was determined by the secondary arrow (11 damage) instead of the main arrow (9 damage). Now both arrows do 10 damage so the number of extra arrows is correctly calculated by the game.
If the devs change the formula now due to the weak points the video found, is it then a success for T-West to have achieved that or a total defeat because of putting dozens of hours of work into a video that's not up to date anymore after 3 weeks?
Amazing breadth and depth of coverage! I'm impressed you covered often overlooked special cases like the Krepost and Donjons as well. Would've liked to see Yasama towers as well - do they add a flat two projectiles or is there a different formula for their total arrows?
Ok this is hard to follow but lots of useful information in there. Wow, the hill bonus doesn't apply to whatch tower attack and fletching is bad for them with villagers. How counterintuitive this game is!
Since there was an update giving arambi missed shots full damage are they special and always count as hitting their shot? Or are they always missing but have double the attack advertised? Also nice job getting the BBT to piss balls.
There are lots of units with animations that are out of sync. I guess it's a gameplay thing where Ensemble had adjusted attack speeds throughout playtesting and didn't keep the models and animations in sync. Would have been nice had the Definitive Edition fixed those issues.
23:43 This bug was introduced on Definitive Edition... I didn't play online, I was just a casual player. The strategy that I enjoyed the most to play vs bots was using the multiple arrows Castles. When I first played DE I thought they nerfed the Castle for some reason so I just accepted it. I don't know if it is less buggy now since I didn't play for a while, but at that time it annoyed me so much that I just started trying other playstyles. It wasn't as fun to me anymore and in the end I stopped playing.
0:58 the patch didn't really make any adjustments, it just corrected some pre-existing errors so now everything works according to certified aoe2 logic
"Which tower will win?" Me: *pauses the video, takes up pencil and paper* The garrisoned tower has an attack of 6 but villagers have an attack of 5 so they will add only 3 extra arrows. the main arrow will deal 1 damage but the extra arrows will deal 5 damage, so a total of 16 damage is dealt. due to the hill bonus, a 1.25 damage will be dealt hence damage per volley will be 20. The un garrisoned tower will get 4 extra arrows so the total damage will be 21, but since the hill bonus applies here as well, the damage per volley will be 15.75 or 15 as the game rounds downwards. -un garrisoned tower still wins due to the power of friendship :(
Super interesting as always, glad I looked in the right direction with the Teutonic infantry's matter xD I'm trying making a total conversion mod, and although I've been able to do things by myself and knew some of those you illustrated here I think you helped me even further, so thx for that too :) Would it be inappropriate of me to ask you some clarification about the editor's mechanics, like, through Reddit or something? Not soon as I'm on vacation rn, and hopefully not annoyingly (I'll understand regardless) ^^;
24:05 I thought until now that as long as the main projectile is in the air, you can switch target and the remaining arrows will be shot to the new direction, but once the first arrow reached its destination selecting a new target aborts the attack and starts the reload time, so the new primary arrow will be shot again sooner.
SKIRMISHERS! Why is nobody mentioning skirmishers? All of these videos even discuss weird teutonic crenellation and the effect on Mamelukes and Ballista elephants but not what happens when you put skirmishers anywhere xD
I really liked your comprehensive analysis of building projectiles. This is probably your best informative video yet. I have few questions that you might have missed. Hopefully this helps. How about malians TC with tigui upgrade? It says it increases no of arrows by 5. What if villagers garrisoned inside tc? Are they become primary projectiles?
@@T-West hmm I thought that tigui should have 5 arrows as primary projectiles since TC doesn't have the primary projectiles since it needs at least one villager to be garrisoned
@@manansuthar9859 I just checked the tech and it doesn't give the TC a primary projectile, just changes the number total and max total projectiles. I guess the game does something similar to Bombard Towers and ends up using the other projectile. You could always test but putting the TC on a hill and checking whether the first 5 projectiles get a hill bonus.
It increases Tower pierce attack by +2. It behaves analogously to the Blacksmith upgrades or Chemistry, potentially decreasing the number of arrows that Towers shoot.
(15:35) - I was going to mention that towers start attacking the next unit with their additional projectiles rather than finishing their original volley off at the same location & target & therefore they are acting differently from units in this sense. UNLESS I'm missing something & it's just a situation that never actually comes up for units since they fire so quickly all of their reduced volleys. But all in all I think the probably 9999 volley-max projectiles of those bombard towers should work at showing this point/idea there. Also do the devs not watch your videoes? They should have nerfed Port. after the stunt they pulled at the end of the video here!
@@T-West I just thought Chu Ko Nu had projectiles with poor accuracy & therefore that explained it mostly. Hussite Wagons fire pebbles can't really see them - I want to just build castles out of them & mangonel shots!
If projectiles are modeled as units, could you make them clickable and movable or are they too different from normal units? Could make some funny scenarios with target finding cannon balls or sth^^
You can change the clickability and movability in the unit properties. I've seen scenarios where you reflect projectiles back at the unit that launched them.
Also be on the lookout for floating-point precision errors. Sometimes there will be number that should be, say, exactly equal to 2, but due to small errors ends up being around 1.99. The floor is taken here, giving a value of 1 when we might have expected 2. You can replicate this error by garrisoning Elite Skirmishers into a Castle: there will be a point where the number of arrows you get and the number you expect from the formula is inconsistent.
Deep topic aside. When can we expect next pacifist campaign playthought?
@@poloziki9990 idk, editing a few things at the moment, that's on the todo list still
@@T-West yoo T-west keep up the good work my man
"Tutonic knights carrying stones with them" cracked me up.
Thought it would explain why they move so slowly.
And they always take them away from allied castles 11
The hill with the dead tree protects the only access to your town! It would be good idea to build a watch tower on this hill!
Don't forget, keep exploring the map!
Came for the hill with the dead tree, stayed for the hill with the dead tree.
TO ARMS, THE ENGLISH ARE MAKING A SNEAK ATACK
The English are angry that you destroyed their outpost
They are coming to attack your Village !
@@daanwilmer Thankfully they removed this but they filled that whole desert area of the map with trees. It used to say keep exploring the map even at 100% map explored.
T-West: Dedicated video about projectiles being shot from buildings, very informative.
Me, an adult: 15:40 haha, Bombard Tower go brrrrrrrr.
Just wait until you get to the end ;)
@@T-West you have way too much power in your hands...
...also was expecting the same champion from the beginning of the vid, but instead being on steroids and doing it 300-style against an army.
Devs, we need a Cobra Tower cheat code pls
Nothing more appropriate than deleting an outpost to start a war.
but it would be a good idea to build a Watch Tower on this hill
But wait! The English are angry that you destroyed their Outpost
Eyyy Zero Empires! The OG.
It was a false flag operation all along!
You’re the man zero!
The production value on your videos is really amazing. It's something I can really learn from.
When you randomly find Marcel Vos in the comments
Would you look at that it’s the rollercoaster man!
I am so happy there’s 25 minutes of your content. I dont’ even play aoe2 anymore, but still I thoroughly enjoy your analyses. Fresh as SOTL was couple years ago!
I love the pinpoint accuracy, T-West videos are the quantum gravity to SOTL's Newtonian motion.
"Lamer"
"Target Practice"
"Heavy Armor Swimming Lessons"
"20 Elephants Fit in a Castle"
"Incomplete Wall"
"Eles have lots of HP"
"Doucher"
"Nomad Doucher"
15:40 I veeeery much appreciate you showing the whole fight here 11 great video
all i know is that there was a much simpler and accurate-r way to do this. instead of adding projectiles, have garrisoned units increase attack speed in pace with the DPS of units garrisoned. instead of showering 20 arrows every 3 seconds, fire one arrow every 0.15 seconds. much easier to have intermediary values be more accurate this way.
20:14 man you gave a new civ bonus for the next dlc.. fletching in dark age
We just witnessed the first master thesis in AoEology I think.
yes I just watched a 25 minute video on how building projectiles work, yes my life is now complete
only the real ogs know the reference with the champion and cataphract
That hacker guy with 21 range on Infantry. Lol.
Can you explain it to people, who do not know it?)
Emanuel finally having his spotlight :D
My first thought was of Emanuel when I saw it!
@@mzil probably a Gwyndlegard reference. its a custom campaign.
IMO they should change/fix it so that secondary projectiles take elevation into account.
I assume they would have to change a LOT of other things as well then, considering that aoe2 is pretty much held together by duct tape and bubble gum
I feel like the best solution to the weirdness would simply be to remove attack upgrades from the calculation on the side of the building.
Especially since garrisons typically only add “additional” projectiles that aren’t effected by the upgrades anyway.
This would remove the annoying downside of fletching in feudal tower wars.
Awesome video T-West! Love how much detail was explored here
At this point, in my opinino, your videos dont count as game analysis but full fledged documentaries
You forgot to mention the fire tower, it's very unique too (0 primary projectiles like the TC and 0 accuracy like the the fire ship).
That last clip was so satisfying, I screamed like the viper did, vs Hera.
The hill with the dead tree protects the only access to your town
I absolutely love how much depth you've put into this video!! SotL did a similar one, but it didn't cover every single case, didn't show it perfectly mathematically, and didn't cover non-existent cases by using the editor.
You've also given me ideas to make a campaign with a sword man that shoots fireballs x)
Considering how old the original sotl video was, this video feels like a more updated version
Missed out on naming our Champion friend Tahu Nuva with the triple fire upgrade :)
Hey T-West. I want to thank you for saving my eye sight by refraining from the use of the Small Trees mod in your videos 👍
P.S. That end screen was great!
King: Our kingdom researched fletching. Let's shoot more and kill!
Vil: Your majesty the technology is too advanced we actually don't know how to shoot......
King: ...... Sacre Bleu .......
oh damn that bombard tower part with a billion shots is great to take a nap to. i was listening to it with my eyes closed and suddenly i was at a waterfall. great stuff. woke up when it stopped :()
Man your map design is so beautiful
Super informative video, love it! Loved especially more for a moment, because I heard "Fish-and-chips" for a moment at 17:11!
I have no idea what this video is about, but I got it recommended, so I'm gonna give it a watch.
The last scenario reminds me of myself spamming 50+ Korean Siege Onagers behind 6 tiles of walls against the incoming attack, very satisfying.
it's counterintuitive things like this that make me always appreciate people who put the time in to lab out mechanics and not just go on feeling or what top players are doing. I'm mostly sure that a lot of top players while very familiar with specific niche game mechanics may not have been aware of the this tower interaction with fletching and a hill and have just been doing things naturally for so long they may have actually been hurting their own gameplay and yet would have been referenced by newer players looking for the correct thing to do in situations.
TLDR: trust the person that labbed something and that you can replicate with testing out rather than a top player going off of feeling or something they have been doing for years so it must be right.
I'd be very wary about doubting the knowledge of expert players. Knowing very specific details can help, but having a feel for how to macro is much, much, much important when it comes to playing Aoe2.
@@T-West Oh I fully agree. The majority of the time it's correct to assume the top player is correct. However, I more meant the tendency of people to just assume the top player is doing everything right simply because they are a top player when it's entirely possible they are doing something very wrong but it's hidden behind the many other things they are doing right to overshadow the mistake and this dismissing suggestions of even trying something else.
Not only in AOE but in other games you don't know how many times people will dismiss some suggestion to try something or test something specific that may be better because "X top person says it's bad or does the exact opposite" without any exact numbers backing it up or even considering that someone can be a great player while still having small flaws in their game.
Yessss! The long awaited video!
Teacher: dont worry, that math exam will not be hard
That math exam:
Persians: You can't do this! This is an offence against nature!
T-West: Haha gattling cannon tower go brrrrrrrrrrrr
4:33 channeling that early 2000s energy, I see ;)
I'm wondering how is going to work the Hussite Wagon from the Bohemians, and if that unit can shot more proyectiles with more garrisoned units
honestly did not know about this. now i know what to do when towering
15:40, when you garrison Cobra Cars in your towers
That thumbnail is frankly hilarious
Extraordinarily interesting ! Thanks for the video !
4:21 For some reason I quite like the layout of this scene...
I think the issue with Kreposts was that the "building pierce attack" was determined by the secondary arrow (11 damage) instead of the main arrow (9 damage). Now both arrows do 10 damage so the number of extra arrows is correctly calculated by the game.
If the devs change the formula now due to the weak points the video found, is it then a success for T-West to have achieved that or a total defeat because of putting dozens of hours of work into a video that's not up to date anymore after 3 weeks?
This game is flawed is so many beautiful ways! Great video as always
Amazing breadth and depth of coverage! I'm impressed you covered often overlooked special cases like the Krepost and Donjons as well. Would've liked to see Yasama towers as well - do they add a flat two projectiles or is there a different formula for their total arrows?
iirc the tech adds +2 to the total and max total number of arrows.
woah. that sure was a long week.
at least it is finally here ^^
15:39
When your Bomb. Towers run on Mentos+Cola
Ok this is hard to follow but lots of useful information in there. Wow, the hill bonus doesn't apply to whatch tower attack and fletching is bad for them with villagers. How counterintuitive this game is!
Since there was an update giving arambi missed shots full damage are they special and always count as hitting their shot? Or are they always missing but have double the attack advertised?
Also nice job getting the BBT to piss balls.
Nobody:
T-West Teutons: "Eat lead, Persians!"
I need more full auto Onagers in my life.
4:32 See that champion's animation sync up with his attack perfectly. Why isn't this possible when he's attacking normally?
There are lots of units with animations that are out of sync. I guess it's a gameplay thing where Ensemble had adjusted attack speeds throughout playtesting and didn't keep the models and animations in sync. Would have been nice had the Definitive Edition fixed those issues.
At last, the long awaited answer to the tower post!
Also, it looks like my math was right! The downhill tower won with ~1/3 of its HP left.
Never thought I'd see Bionicle names in an Age of Empires video. XD
I read this as garrisoning a building with other buildings, not sure if there is a mod that makes that possible, but this video makes more sense.
23:43 This bug was introduced on Definitive Edition... I didn't play online, I was just a casual player. The strategy that I enjoyed the most to play vs bots was using the multiple arrows Castles. When I first played DE I thought they nerfed the Castle for some reason so I just accepted it. I don't know if it is less buggy now since I didn't play for a while, but at that time it annoyed me so much that I just started trying other playstyles. It wasn't as fun to me anymore and in the end I stopped playing.
Now do the math with the 256 Tech Mod, Crenelations.
Enjoyed the video. Thank you for calling out what crenellations is supposed to mean. 11
Great vid! All I understood was “projectile machine go brrrrr” but nonetheless a very awesome vid. Thanks!
0:58 the patch didn't really make any adjustments, it just corrected some pre-existing errors so now everything works according to certified aoe2 logic
"Which tower will win?"
Me: *pauses the video, takes up pencil and paper*
The garrisoned tower has an attack of 6 but villagers have an attack of 5 so they will add only 3 extra arrows. the main arrow will deal 1 damage but the extra arrows will deal 5 damage, so a total of 16 damage is dealt. due to the hill bonus, a 1.25 damage will be dealt hence damage per volley will be 20.
The un garrisoned tower will get 4 extra arrows so the total damage will be 21, but since the hill bonus applies here as well, the damage per volley will be 15.75 or 15 as the game rounds downwards.
-un garrisoned tower still wins due to the power of friendship :(
-.- projectiles don't get hill bonus :/
@@utkarshsrivastava6080 Valiant attempt.
Super interesting as always, glad I looked in the right direction with the Teutonic infantry's matter xD
I'm trying making a total conversion mod, and although I've been able to do things by myself and knew some of those you illustrated here I think you helped me even further, so thx for that too :)
Would it be inappropriate of me to ask you some clarification about the editor's mechanics, like, through Reddit or something? Not soon as I'm on vacation rn, and hopefully not annoyingly (I'll understand regardless) ^^;
Ask in my Discord, people there probs can help too.
@@T-West oh, didn't notice you had one, I'll join then. Thx a megabunch (^^)b
Maybe my parsing is bad, but I'm still disappointed this video didn't cover what happens when you garrison a building inside a building.
Therapist: Full auto bombard towers don't exist, they can't hurt your units
Full auto bombard tower: 15:43
Hehe, cannon goes brrrrt
25:00 can we have a 30mins video of it?
24:05 I thought until now that as long as the main projectile is in the air, you can switch target and the remaining arrows will be shot to the new direction, but once the first arrow reached its destination selecting a new target aborts the attack and starts the reload time, so the new primary arrow will be shot again sooner.
4:35 was this a reference to Emanuel or happenstance that it looked that way?
;)
As someone who only plays this game casually - its so much more complicated than I expected :(
This was incredible!
Machine gun bombard towers? Where can I get one
Well done 👍
delicious Bionicle reference
Look out SOTL, T-West is coming for your throne!
Now they gonna put there chaingun bombard towers in lake poyang to replace the fortified tower to stop us cheesing it -v-
Those Fortified Towers still give me nightmares.
Just remembered there was no bridge in William Wallace 5.
Whats the reference?
@@sdwvit William Wallace 5 was representing the battle of Stirling which happened on a bridge
SKIRMISHERS! Why is nobody mentioning skirmishers? All of these videos even discuss weird teutonic crenellation and the effect on Mamelukes and Ballista elephants but not what happens when you put skirmishers anywhere xD
Aaaand what about Fire Towers? Do they do more damage or shoot more fire?
Neither. They already have their Total Projectiles and Max Total Projectiles set to 3. But Teuton Fire Towers would shoot more fire.
4:34 that is the unit AOE should make
Moral of the story: Teuton's the best civ!
I really liked your comprehensive analysis of building projectiles. This is probably your best informative video yet.
I have few questions that you might have missed. Hopefully this helps.
How about malians TC with tigui upgrade? It says it increases no of arrows by 5. What if villagers garrisoned inside tc? Are they become primary projectiles?
Oh good question. That's +5 to total missiles and to max total missiles for the TC. All of those are secondary projectiles.
@@T-West hmm I thought that tigui should have 5 arrows as primary projectiles since TC doesn't have the primary projectiles since it needs at least one villager to be garrisoned
@@manansuthar9859 I just checked the tech and it doesn't give the TC a primary projectile, just changes the number total and max total projectiles. I guess the game does something similar to Bombard Towers and ends up using the other projectile.
You could always test but putting the TC on a hill and checking whether the first 5 projectiles get a hill bonus.
@@T-West yeah that is good idea to check if they are primary projectiles
Wait so T-west is the same guy from Zeroempires? I'm yt only
25:09 Is that the Bombard Tower that fires 259 cannonballs
Only 255. That's the max.
Looks like BBT now can fire cereal balls.
@T-West 4:33 Are you a Bionicle fan?
1
This is a great example of over complicating things.
each unit should just add 1 arrow to the building...
I better watch this tommorow or I gonna be addicted lol
There's a random costs mod but what if there was a random stats mod?
I misunderstood the title initially, but now I'm curious: what happens if you hypothetically garrison a tower inside another tower?
I haven't tried that...
Nobody:
TW: gatlings shooting cannonballs
I see that Bionicle reference!
what about britons and there bonusattack for towers? (unique tech)
It increases Tower pierce attack by +2. It behaves analogously to the Blacksmith upgrades or Chemistry, potentially decreasing the number of arrows that Towers shoot.
@@T-West Thanks!!
how can you set a primary projectile for a unit? I have been trying but i can´t do it
There's a box for it in the advanced genie editor. Just enter the unit id of the projectile you want to use. Then you can save that as a data mod.
12:10 you mean one fewer arrow
Ah yes, the Bonkle Champion: Tahu
(15:35) - I was going to mention that towers start attacking the next unit with their additional projectiles rather than finishing their original volley off at the same location & target & therefore they are acting differently from units in this sense. UNLESS I'm missing something & it's just a situation that never actually comes up for units since they fire so quickly all of their reduced volleys. But all in all I think the probably 9999 volley-max projectiles of those bombard towers should work at showing this point/idea there.
Also do the devs not watch your videoes? They should have nerfed Port. after the stunt they pulled at the end of the video here!
That situation should come up for Hussite Wagons and Chu Ko Nus too.
@@T-West I just thought Chu Ko Nu had projectiles with poor accuracy & therefore that explained it mostly. Hussite Wagons fire pebbles can't really see them - I want to just build castles out of them & mangonel shots!
Tahu? People still remember we used to have bionicle?
I clicked for curiosity, now I have a diploma on maths
Spirit of the T-West here
If projectiles are modeled as units, could you make them clickable and movable or are they too different from normal units? Could make some funny scenarios with target finding cannon balls or sth^^
You can change the clickability and movability in the unit properties. I've seen scenarios where you reflect projectiles back at the unit that launched them.
@@T-West Nice. Medieval Volleyball with Cannon balls. "When I was young, our Volley balls were made of iron"^^
Is there a mod for machine gun bombard towers? :D