Some people have Lofi Hip Hop Radio - Beats to Sleep/Chill to. Some have ASMR. We have Marc's soothing voice telling us all about the world of Toyota engines and MR2's
I've run many puck clutches and they are not fun on the street especially with light flywheels. I finally got Marc's Ceramic clutch in on my turboed 2GR. It holds, takes all the abuse and for stop light/street cars (mine) start off engagement is so much smoother than pucks with the marcel.
You didn't mention it in your video, but flywheel selection varies depending on your application, heavier flywheels (it's a fine balance between too light and too heavy) in drag racing can produce quicker ET's due to the stored inertia upon launch. Too light of a flywheel will not carry it off the line as fast. In drag racing, the 60ft is critical to your overall ET. It's a fine balance, but often those not aware think as light a flywheel as possible is always the right choice. Dyno's have also shown that having a moderately heavier flywheel can also produce more HP, largely due to it's ability to dampen harmonics and engine pulses. So going too light isn't always better depending on your racing type....
It wasn't really an omission. A lot of what you're saying there is the stuff that gets passed on from person to person without having math done on it. It certainly is true sometimes but it is far from a universal truth. Take the heavy flywheel for the quicker 60' time. Let's use the numbers in this video where the lightest flywheel vs OEM saved about 8.5lbs and the flywheel is an 11" disk. at 4500 RPM that extra 8.5lb is storing about 4.2kJ but don't forget that you can't bring the RPM down to zero, by the time you're done pulling energy from it you'll be closer to 2500rpm giving you 2.9kJ usable extra energy. 2.9kJ is 3.88horsepower second. That energy will be released over about 1.5 seconds giving you 2.59hp more for that 1.5 seconds or even if you release it quicker you'll get 3.88 horsepower for 1 second. But then you have to turn around and pay that energy back as the car revs down the track because you have to spin that flywheel back up. The value of the energy in drag racing is worth a lot more at the beginning so paying it back a few seconds later won't cancel it out completely but mathematically this is miniscule. What's happening is that everything in the system works together from the engine, transmission all the way to the suspension and the chassis' weight distribution. In some instances changing the way the power is delivered by affecting the flywheel weight can be more beneficial than the energy stored would indicate but it isn't a universal truth. As for dampening the torsion on the crank that effectively changes the relative timing of the front cylinders from the rear cylinders it is a real thing and it's the reason that some engines have their timing assembly on the rear instead of the front. But that is also a case by case thing and these motors i'm working on use some pretty strong forged crankshafts so i will need a lot of power before it properly becomes an issue.
Sounds like we mostly agree. It's testing under controlled conditions to achieve repeatable results (math) and the math has shown that heavier flywheels (there is a ceiling to the weight too) can produce quicker ET's. One also needs to take into account that the heavier flywheel isn't just about the HP, it can also help to prevent the engine from bogging upon launch, which lowers the RPM of the engine, which means you have less HP available until the engine rev's up again. (a bad bog can literally bring you from 5000rpm you were launching at down to a 1000 rpm and result in you losing a few hundred available HP depending on your engine setup.) A heavier flywheel can also prevent rpm drop between shifts, which can also help ET as it won't fall out of the powerband as much. So even in cases where your may lose HP from a heavier flywheel, you can still gain ET. Even auto's that use smaller torque converters for higher stall speeds often incorporate an "inertia" plate on them to increase mass back up.
so many times "what clutch should i use" gets turned into "tell me what clutch you bought" with no concern for the application at hand. Hopefully this helps clarify some things.
One thing I've found is that the part that connects the friction material to the main plate (think the spokes) is thin sheetmetal sometimes it is several individual pieces, like 8 spokes. I have had those fail a few times. So the last clutch I bought for my Lemons car I looked at many disks before I found one that appeared to be heavy duty. In place of the individual "spokes" I found one where this is a single piece and it appeared maybe a third thicker. It is an ACT Street, which is their sprung organic clutch and I am happy with it so far. If anyone has any other suggestions for sprung organic clutches that are not so flimsy, I'm all ears.
The difference in rotational inertia is a lot higher than the difference in weight, as the weight on the flywheel is a lot further away from the rotational centre than the rest of the parts. Even the pressure plate has the weight closer to the centre than the flywheel.
Thanks a lot dor your video! I'm looking for a new clutch for my Puegeot 207 GTI and I couldn't figure out which one to chose. Especially since I love the feeling my clutch pedal since I presum the former owner put an aftermarket pressure plate (or clutch assembly). One question, how to search for references and compatible ones ? Google search is a nightmare for this. And no shops (as far as I know) offers the fulk variety of clutches nor describes precisely which material is used...
I don't usually like saying stuff like this because it sounds disingenuous and like i'm pretending to create fake demand for it but i got a pretty small sampling of clutches made so i could see if they would sell well or not so depending on which one you want i may only have 2 or 3 of them on hand. It's not like they are flying off the shelves but you probably don't want to wait too long.
Thanks for this! Perfect timing for my 2gr swap. To be sure, the ceramic clutch with marcel would be ideal for a street build 2gr in MR2 (I'm using S54 transmission with lightweight flywheel)? And the clutch kit I would need to find specific to the S54.
I personally believe it is a great combo. Unfortunately i do not offer such a clutch and i don't think anyone else does but it's certainly worth a search to see if they exist.
It would have been decent if you touched upon the regular drivability(or lack there of) of a segmented unsprung clutch. They really do have a different feel and stop an go traffics or drive thru’s can be a real pita
i did actually discuss the unsprung hub, the unsprung hub turns your transmission's input shaft into a consumable and is a terrible idea for a car that you are driving just as a normal car. unless the transmission comes off often enough to reapply grease to the input shaft they are just a bad idea.
Do you happen to know if anybody makes a ceramic sprung clutch with a marcel that would work with the 2AR+S54? That is, if your EB60 one wouldn't work.
You know what, you're absolutely correct. i reviewed this so many times because i knew people would try to poke holes in it and i missed this. Thankfully it does not change the overall sentiment that is being said.
Yes, that is the 2gr-fe flywheel i sell right here: frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/shop/2gr-fe-all-steel-lightweight-flywheel the black coating is just an anti corrosion surface treatment and will quickly wear off of the friction surface as soon as it starts being used.
Twin disk clutches are a bit beyond the scope of the conversation for most people but a twin disk clutch just adds twice as much torque transfer assuming it's a full size clutch face. As long as it is paired with the appropriate clamping force for the torque it can make for a very light pedal pressure that can transfer a ton of torque. I've never used a carbon clutch and i wasn't able to find a number for the friction coefficient so unfortunately i don't have enough info to speak to it.
I honestly do not have any input on the automatic transmission. a few people have mentioned that there are upgrade kits but i don't know anything about them. converting a 2AR camry to a manual would be somewhat involved but all the parts exist, Toyota actually sold manual 2AR camrys in 2010 and 2011 using the EB62 transmission.
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Some people have Lofi Hip Hop Radio - Beats to Sleep/Chill to.
Some have ASMR.
We have Marc's soothing voice telling us all about the world of Toyota engines and MR2's
You are gem in the MR2 community. Thank you
Everybody needs to watch this master class on clutches and flywheels. Well Done. Thank you.
Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge. It's very much appreciated.
I've run many puck clutches and they are not fun on the street especially with light flywheels. I finally got Marc's Ceramic clutch in on my turboed 2GR. It holds, takes all the abuse and for stop light/street cars (mine) start off engagement is so much smoother than pucks with the marcel.
Great video, this is why I'm subscribed
Thanks for the sub!
One of the best explanations I have seen regarding clutch selection.
You didn't mention it in your video, but flywheel selection varies depending on your application, heavier flywheels (it's a fine balance between too light and too heavy) in drag racing can produce quicker ET's due to the stored inertia upon launch. Too light of a flywheel will not carry it off the line as fast. In drag racing, the 60ft is critical to your overall ET. It's a fine balance, but often those not aware think as light a flywheel as possible is always the right choice. Dyno's have also shown that having a moderately heavier flywheel can also produce more HP, largely due to it's ability to dampen harmonics and engine pulses. So going too light isn't always better depending on your racing type....
It wasn't really an omission. A lot of what you're saying there is the stuff that gets passed on from person to person without having math done on it. It certainly is true sometimes but it is far from a universal truth. Take the heavy flywheel for the quicker 60' time. Let's use the numbers in this video where the lightest flywheel vs OEM saved about 8.5lbs and the flywheel is an 11" disk. at 4500 RPM that extra 8.5lb is storing about 4.2kJ but don't forget that you can't bring the RPM down to zero, by the time you're done pulling energy from it you'll be closer to 2500rpm giving you 2.9kJ usable extra energy. 2.9kJ is 3.88horsepower second. That energy will be released over about 1.5 seconds giving you 2.59hp more for that 1.5 seconds or even if you release it quicker you'll get 3.88 horsepower for 1 second. But then you have to turn around and pay that energy back as the car revs down the track because you have to spin that flywheel back up. The value of the energy in drag racing is worth a lot more at the beginning so paying it back a few seconds later won't cancel it out completely but mathematically this is miniscule. What's happening is that everything in the system works together from the engine, transmission all the way to the suspension and the chassis' weight distribution. In some instances changing the way the power is delivered by affecting the flywheel weight can be more beneficial than the energy stored would indicate but it isn't a universal truth.
As for dampening the torsion on the crank that effectively changes the relative timing of the front cylinders from the rear cylinders it is a real thing and it's the reason that some engines have their timing assembly on the rear instead of the front. But that is also a case by case thing and these motors i'm working on use some pretty strong forged crankshafts so i will need a lot of power before it properly becomes an issue.
Sounds like we mostly agree. It's testing under controlled conditions to achieve repeatable results (math) and the math has shown that heavier flywheels (there is a ceiling to the weight too) can produce quicker ET's. One also needs to take into account that the heavier flywheel isn't just about the HP, it can also help to prevent the engine from bogging upon launch, which lowers the RPM of the engine, which means you have less HP available until the engine rev's up again. (a bad bog can literally bring you from 5000rpm you were launching at down to a 1000 rpm and result in you losing a few hundred available HP depending on your engine setup.) A heavier flywheel can also prevent rpm drop between shifts, which can also help ET as it won't fall out of the powerband as much. So even in cases where your may lose HP from a heavier flywheel, you can still gain ET. Even auto's that use smaller torque converters for higher stall speeds often incorporate an "inertia" plate on them to increase mass back up.
I have an ACT XtremeClutch with cushioned ceramic clutch plate. Works very well indeed, would highly recommend!
Something that gets overlooked all the time
Very detailed video💪💪
so many times "what clutch should i use" gets turned into "tell me what clutch you bought" with no concern for the application at hand. Hopefully this helps clarify some things.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks it will help some, but you are still going to get the same question🤣
@@e5141981 perhaps but now i can just point them to this video :)
One thing I've found is that the part that connects the friction material to the main plate (think the spokes) is thin sheetmetal sometimes it is several individual pieces, like 8 spokes. I have had those fail a few times. So the last clutch I bought for my Lemons car I looked at many disks before I found one that appeared to be heavy duty. In place of the individual "spokes" I found one where this is a single piece and it appeared maybe a third thicker. It is an ACT Street, which is their sprung organic clutch and I am happy with it so far. If anyone has any other suggestions for sprung organic clutches that are not so flimsy, I'm all ears.
Great video very helpful thank you😊
That was a great overview!
The difference in rotational inertia is a lot higher than the difference in weight, as the weight on the flywheel is a lot further away from the rotational centre than the rest of the parts. Even the pressure plate has the weight closer to the centre than the flywheel.
Please make more clips about 2ar-fe and how to power up, we really like it.
Thanks a lot dor your video!
I'm looking for a new clutch for my Puegeot 207 GTI and I couldn't figure out which one to chose. Especially since I love the feeling my clutch pedal since I presum the former owner put an aftermarket pressure plate (or clutch assembly).
One question, how to search for references and compatible ones ?
Google search is a nightmare for this. And no shops (as far as I know) offers the fulk variety of clutches nor describes precisely which material is used...
I have your flywheel and buying the clutch soon.
I don't usually like saying stuff like this because it sounds disingenuous and like i'm pretending to create fake demand for it but i got a pretty small sampling of clutches made so i could see if they would sell well or not so depending on which one you want i may only have 2 or 3 of them on hand. It's not like they are flying off the shelves but you probably don't want to wait too long.
@@FrankensteinMotorworks you may only have 1 or 2 of them. I ordered a ceramic just now.
Good video with plenty of good info
Awesome video, I really appreciate the information.
Thanks for this! Perfect timing for my 2gr swap. To be sure, the ceramic clutch with marcel would be ideal for a street build 2gr in MR2 (I'm using S54 transmission with lightweight flywheel)? And the clutch kit I would need to find specific to the S54.
I personally believe it is a great combo. Unfortunately i do not offer such a clutch and i don't think anyone else does but it's certainly worth a search to see if they exist.
It would have been decent if you touched upon the regular drivability(or lack there of) of a segmented unsprung clutch. They really do have a different feel and stop an go traffics or drive thru’s can be a real pita
i did actually discuss the unsprung hub, the unsprung hub turns your transmission's input shaft into a consumable and is a terrible idea for a car that you are driving just as a normal car. unless the transmission comes off often enough to reapply grease to the input shaft they are just a bad idea.
If I wanted to run a 2AR motor in a rear wheel drive application, Is there a (Toyota) manual gearbox that matches up easily?
I'm actually working on a TL70 adapter right now.
Do you happen to know if anybody makes a ceramic sprung clutch with a marcel that would work with the 2AR+S54? That is, if your EB60 one wouldn't work.
I don't believe anyone makes that but i haven't really looked for it.
Don't count the friction surface in the flywheel weight it would be like adding the weight of the wheels tires axles gears ect MOI to the mix
You know what, you're absolutely correct. i reviewed this so many times because i knew people would try to poke holes in it and i missed this. Thankfully it does not change the overall sentiment that is being said.
so the black flywheel nearest you is 100% steel? Cool!
Yes, that is the 2gr-fe flywheel i sell right here: frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/shop/2gr-fe-all-steel-lightweight-flywheel the black coating is just an anti corrosion surface treatment and will quickly wear off of the friction surface as soon as it starts being used.
What are your thoughts on twin plate clutches and also clutches that use carbon material?
Twin disk clutches are a bit beyond the scope of the conversation for most people but a twin disk clutch just adds twice as much torque transfer assuming it's a full size clutch face. As long as it is paired with the appropriate clamping force for the torque it can make for a very light pedal pressure that can transfer a ton of torque.
I've never used a carbon clutch and i wasn't able to find a number for the friction coefficient so unfortunately i don't have enough info to speak to it.
At the start of your video, the frankensteins monster guy - he's got two left hands. Is that a modification made to help with mr2 engine bays?
nice :) but the truth is he has two left hands because that was the best i could get from fiver :)
Any local, USA six speeds available for 92 MR2?
There are no 6 speed transmissions that bolt in directly or that have swap kits available for the SW20.
If it can be done, how would you upgrade/improve the automatic on a Camry with the 2AR? Could it be converted to a manual?
I honestly do not have any input on the automatic transmission. a few people have mentioned that there are upgrade kits but i don't know anything about them. converting a 2AR camry to a manual would be somewhat involved but all the parts exist, Toyota actually sold manual 2AR camrys in 2010 and 2011 using the EB62 transmission.
Mark what would be a good combo for 2GR with a s51 tranny clutch, flywheel, pressure plate..
what do you plan on doing with it?
Gonna use it as street car n more of mountain cruise, plan on putting the 2gr in the 94 celica
Aren't most modern motors internally balanced?
I haven't personally run across an externally balanced motor in a really long time but i'm mostly playing with newer Toyota motors.
Kinda I’m not dealing with a clutch, honestly. Though automatics have their own set of issues 🤣
I refuse to drive automatics which certainly comes with issues when it comes to buying cars.
69th like 👍
Nice :)