I liked the questions posed to identify the ‘why’ of you and think that once this is understood by more of us, it can allow for a more harmonious discussion on the topics of workplaces and redefine ways of working that aligns with purpose for all whilst considering our uniqueness. Perhaps those tribe members understand their why more clearly ;🤣@“you go to the store to get meat?!”🤣 Also appreciate the gold nugget on the key to elevating the self by offering service to others. Trevor, you’re the bomb at diffusing tension with laughter. Enjoyed every minute of this episode.
nailed it with the 'soul sucking experience' 👏🏼👏🏼cuz we all want to be on a 🎠🎠🎠 instead, or whatever it is for us. Look what you've done now, you've given me homework to think about 😀 great episode, aaand I see there's more of you with Simon..yeah!
I love how inquisitive both Cristiana and Trevor engaged in this dialogue. Specially by the end. Because I agree the shortcomings of this purpose seeking framework is that it disregards the work experience of the large majority of people (as workers in the conditions of David Greber’s bullshit jobs).
Something I'd push back on is this idea of separation between who you are at work and who you are as a person. In my experience it gives a pass to people to ruin other people's lives and take no responsibility for their cruelty by saying "it's just business". Secondly, society is set up for us to spend the majority of our lives at our jobs. So what you are saying if you disregard that as a criteria to judge a person is that where someone spends most of their time and energy does not count towards whether they are considered a good person or not.
Agreed. Also, masks are part of costumes. Everyome wears costumes/masks. Who a person is at work is actual a person dressed in costume/mask, not a different person. What you choose to play/cosplay is precisely the essence of who someone is in leisure and in business togther.
To add to this, you can be a hard, pushy, strict boss but still be a good person. In other words you may push people, you may expect a lot of people, and it can be done in a respectful and positive way if you are a good person and treat others accordingly. Just because you're at work doesn't give you an excuse to be an a$$hole, and if you are one at work it's probably because you just are one period.
Totally agree. That's why capitalism continues to have permission to push past human care and moral boundaries that have led to the United Health Care CEO being assassinated. Every aspect of life, including labor, shouldn't be "up for sale to the highest bidder" or can be thrown under the bus for any lucrative shareholder offer that comes to pass.
The two greatest excuses that, when we hear them, we are in agreement that the behavior is wrong, AND not an effing thing is going to be done about it, are: boys will be boys; it’s just business. you find both of these abhorrent , as do I, you can help dismantle the patriarchy. We women have plenty of work for you able-bodied men
Christiana's contributions to this episode were so invaluable because while I didn't agree with what she was saying, it helped me challenge myself to understand why I was so discomforted by some of the points she made. Thank you Christiana. I think there are people privileged enough to be centered in social and spiritual settings that have not become untethered from their social groups from micro (family) to macro (historical culture and identity). This is a privilege that not all people have. There was just a lot of privilege laden in these statements. First, labor is labor regardless of the system of rules by which it operates. Some labor is paid; some is unpaid. Social settings also require labor (usually inequitably so). And to Trevor's point sometimes people do unpaid social labor willingly because it serves them personally and experience joy and sometimes they don't. Somatic capacity greatly informs these experiences. Who has the energy to work in all these settings: the paid setting (to buy food and shelter), the usual unpaid family setting (to give and receive emotional food of love and nurture), the (fill in the blank) spiritual setting (to affirm and receive spiritual love and nurture) differs greatly based on social privilege. But all these settings to be well and productive and supportive and fulfilling takes energy. So having the energy to do all this work is a privilege also; though it can be cultivated. HOWEVER, historically there has been so much exploitation of the not privileged (insert identity group) in the U.S. The notion that social unpaid labor in social settings is per se rewarding (and not exploitative) while paid labor in all "private" settings is de facto exploitative or dangerous is a false dichotomy, at least for me (as a cis-femme). As if! capitalism or socialism or benevolent monarchy or democracy has ever accounted for the exploitative, involuntary AND unpaid labor of the exploited in any setting. Imo, having been raised in a social community that did not produce safe, affirming, joyful spaces for me as a child and young person, I at first chose a profession that would give me autonomy but it came with highly stressful and toxic work environments. But the freedom to control and decide how and when I use my labor when I watched people "struggle" in near poverty wage employment around me was integral to my education and professional journey. So when I woke up from that nightmare and started choosing joy, it necessarily meant I had to choose a safer place to do my paid (survival) work while I cultivated joy in social settings. So ultimately what I heard Christiana say is that she feels affirmed by the social communities of her upbringing which is beautiful and wonderful for her. It is simply not a universal experience. Some of us who are untethered from deeply rooted social "belonging" groups must create or cultivate those communities for ourselves. Joy is the core to what I choose to cultivate. So I really enjoyed that you all touched on a lot of the things that I have experienced even though I would have described it in different language. I maybe would have loved to hear a more direct acknowledgement not just of an unwarranted difference in treatment (read inequity) within paid labor systems but about unwarranted differences in treatment (read inequity) around unpaid labor in social institutions (like families ,churches, civic groups, and other identity groups) as well. Great talk though. loving the podcasts.
Some good points. It sounds a lot too that culture, experience, and other things completely contribute to the perspectives you and Christiana gave (and obviously that applies to Trevor and Simon too). This is kind of a "duh" statement and was even brought up a bit from Christiana but perhaps worth reminding ourselves as to why such stark differences. I would love to have a convo with you and Christiana on this topic and see what she might have had to say to the points you brought up. I understood what you said to be that our communities can sometimes be a source of unfair, purposeless, unjoyful labor just as the job can and that we may feel we have to look elsewhere like with a career if our experience with community growing up wasn't as fulfilling or fruitful or connective the way it seems Christiana's is/was. And where everyone kind of lands together here is that there are so many of us who don't currently have a community, we didn't have one perhaps ever or one was too underdeveloped, we aren't fulfilled or find joy with our careers/jobs/work, and it seems the problem is growing. I have so many questions and views stemming from the topics discussed in this episode. I wish there was a better way to discuss it all and with people like Trevor, Simon, Christiana, and yourself.
I think Dee has a much more thought out version of my take on it, but for me I would much rather do work that I find meaningful than work that I find meaningless and to some extent the compensation doesn't matter. If someone offered me a million dollars a year to go dig and then fill in holes vs 80,000 to build roads I would take the second job in a heartbeat because I would be absolutely miserable spending all my time achieving and building towards nothing. Just a fascinating difference in perspective.
I believe our society often teaches us to dislike our work instead of encouraging us to find something we genuinely love. Of course, it’s important that we can still provide for our families, but when we learn to be true to ourselves and enjoy what we do, we become happier and can make even greater contributions to our communities. It’s truly a blessing to love your work. I hope more people realize this, discover their true passions, and follow a path that truly aligns with who they are.
@@DrAshaPrasad well there’s an elitist comment because not everyone has the luxury of getting to do something they really love. But it is important to know what your boundaries are around Any job you do, and to feel like you are being properly compensated and respected.
@@Xenophrenia It’s true we can’t always love our jobs, but as long as we feel respected, find some pride in our work, and receive fair compensation, that can make a difference.
Solución: "Universal Basic income" para tener "resources" suficiente para sobrevivir en sociedad moderna. Trabajos opcional sin demasiado mucho "pressure"
There is so much to love, but the way Simon grins at Trevor, such a pure display of appreciation for a person. Simon, I know the feeling - first-hand 😅.
Thank you for allowing us the privilege of sitting in on such an impactful conversation. Even in disagreement there was mutual respect and a desire to understand one another's perspective, we desperately need more of that throughout politics and society as a whole.
I agree. I think their debate is frustrating because they’re not really disagreeing, other than disagreeing on the definition. But I think Christiana’s point about how policies punishing gossip ultimately only protects the bosses is important. Since leadership decides what qualifies as “gossip”, there’s room for abuse in interpretation. The “punishing” or “banning” of gossip is really a censorship of criticism rather than a healthy corporate initiative.
@@ryankluck5041 we have this problem where I work. They want to control the narrative outside of work on people's own time so they don't want us getting drinks together after work, or talk about anyone outside of the office and efforts the company makes to quell any tension does not come across well to employees.
The example that Christina brought up is good, cause I’ve worked in a work place with a very similar situation where a women, warned all of us about a male co-worker. A month or so later she got brought in to a HR meeting about gossiping and spreading harmful rumours about him. Even though the women only made sure not to be one on one with him, they all still talked to him, even invited him to events that most of the co-workers were invited to. What She, the women at work and seemingly Simon & Trevor perceived as a warning, work deemed gossip.
Recent case in point seems to be that of Lively vs Baldoni on workplace sexual harassment where there seemed to be something worrying going on, provisions made to get ahead of the perceived problem that there were whispers about, & a corporate PR wide-ranging effort to stamp out anyone seeming not to join the program.
Words to describe how impactful this conversation are hard to find - all I can say is Thank You to all three of you. Listening and watching how you interact has made my day
I found Simon’s comment particularly insightful: *"...they try to choose people who believe in the same values, who are cultural contributors rather than cultural fits."* I also appreciated Trevor Noah’s observation that the *"purpose, meaning, and why"* behind one’s motivation to work is constantly shifting. A few other points stood out to me as well. For instance, the notion that *"...the outcome is a bonus"* feels strikingly out of sync with the corporate world’s priorities. Additionally, Simon’s connection of this individual’s “why” to her identity as a Protector was especially compelling and touching at the same time. Really enjoyed this episode!
Surprisingly, this interview fell a bit short for me. But I appreciated Christiana's viewpoint and felt seen. Thank you to Christiana, Trevor and crew for your work in putting these together.
Great conversation. This is proof that there's a huge segment of the population who have a different perspective around purpose. In the end, as Simon said it best - we are all wired for service, but educated for greed. "The goal is not to convince the skeptics. The goal is to rally those who believe what we believe". Thoroughly enjoyed this chat! Simon Sinek, Africa is ready for you!
Those are good communication rules: Socrates rules: 1. is that true, 2. is useful, 3, is positive. Do not generalize, show empathy, ask questions, do not judge, criticize or give advice, just ask questions.
@@celiamoreno5117 should it be interpreted like this : Do not generalize, do not judge, do not criticize, do not give advice instead show empathy and ask question?
I do value Christiana's views and the perspective she gave that raised my awarness, and yes there is a but. Sometimes she is over explaining and at times disruptive to the flow of the conversation, sometimes overtalking Simon and Trevor. However I love her in the one-to-one conversation with Trevor, where she truly shines.
She got to make her point, although not fully. And so, in the end, not much was said about not finding one’s purpose in the workplace, or if one has to at all cost do so in other to join that corporate image being projected - the latter may even ring hollow looking inwards &/ around you in that office space.
This was a great episode. I love that Christina was a part of this conversation for so many reasons. She brings great thought out perspectives and matches the energy the guys bring g 👏🏾 👏🏾
She certainly had a tough gig to elevate her conversation to the world-class levels that Trevor and Simon operate at. But I think she lost the room with her ‘Gossip is oral history’ point. She admitted that people can have a tendency to embellish gossip stories beyond what is factually true. Gossip is a pernicious form of spreading one-sided, unevidenced anecdotes that purport to be true without the subject having the right to reply. That’s not to excuse any company of not having an affective, anonymous whistleblowing procedure for legitimate grievances. But don’t leave this task to the gossip-merchants.
I also hate gossip and absolutely refused to take part in it in the last few years, but I decided to relax my priciples on that because I realized exactly what Christiana was saying: I didn`t pass on knowledge about men who were a problem at my work to other women. And collegues started to not trust me because my complete neutrality made them feel like I am hiding something or that I am "not on their team". I think there is some necessary flow of information in gossip, just don`t engage in the mean spirited stuff.
@@anthill1510 But then how do you distinguish between the right and wrong type of "gossip", cause once you open the gates without a clear separation of the 2, you will get alllll of it to a point that you might even see the good intentions getting lost by the amount of bad results from the rest of gossip
I was taught really good distinction. Facts vs feelings vs judgements. Someone can feel sketched out by someone, judge they’re a bad person, but have no facts supporting it. Or there could be facts to support that the judgement of the person as harmful is true. But it shouldn’t be based on feelings alone because we are often mistaken
This is a great conversation and I appreciate what everyone brought to the table. As a small business owner, who is finally coming into a much needed CEO position (for years I worked "in" the company rather than working "on" the company), the valuable insights brought up here are very valuable to me and, I imagine, other business owners. I really want to build a company culture based on positive values that are upheld every day. I do want to point out that, several times, when Christina was offering a controversial and profound insight, both Trevor and Simon interrupted and talked over her. I'd like to offer the gentlemen the opportunity to learn to listen first rather than loudly impart their opinions.
True that. Didn’t allow her to fully develop her argument, & so some of the counter-arguments fell short addressing her point. Time constraint was another factor in that free-wheeling discussion.
Oh interesting, because I felt like she and Simon were really doing that. Both impassioned by their own thoughts and not waiting and listening but formulating and responding without truly hearing the other out. Time constraints probably play a big part in that.
What I hear from Christiana is that she criticizes a broader system that prioritizes creating purpose within for-profit companies out of capitalistic motivations. Instead, the system should work to enhance infrastructure that supports and sustains community building-a humanistic goal. There's nothing wrong with finding purpose in or enjoying your work, but the issue lies in intenionally inventing a purpose purely to make a company more profitable and therefore changing how our society works. That profoundly contradicts with her values, threatens how her personal world is functioning and that's why this subject touched her so much. Thank you for your input, Christiana!
I second your observation on where she seemed to be coming from in her position. I have experienced different corporate adherence to those (feel-good) values they claim to promote. In the end it ends up that the individual employee may need to pivot & embrace fully those values out of necessity, as any dissent is viewed as going against the grain, & therefore, not being a team player.
Watching this episode in the office. I find what Christiana's point makes sense. "Gossip" is a point communal safety. And from a Black women perspective its very much needed in places that tend to be hostile by default.
Yeah I think she just didn't explain it well enough, and the others maybe didn't try enough to flesh it out and understand it either. Gossip of "he's lazy" vs gossip of "don't be alone with him" is vastly different stuff. I'd love to live in a world where HR processes could be trusted but many companies don't even have HR or if they do it's incredibly undeveloped. So gossip fills that void for employee safety. But gossip is definitely problematic as well.
I feel or think that Christiana and Trevor and Simon are saying the same thing just from different points of view and with different terminologies/descriptions. They all are talking about purpose/community/tribe/source of fulfilment but Simon says you can get it anywhere including your place of work/job, Christiana says nope, you shouldn't get it anywhere else but your community if they get it from work people won't fix our broken community, while Trevor is just in between. I side with Simon, you can get tribe/feeling of contribution by building a pyramid or working in a purpose driven company or coming together to build a house for a neighbour who needs a house. Let's not exclude the company as a place for that... but yes, we need the bowling leagues back.
A sense of fulfillment at work doesn't negate any opportunity for a sense of fulfillment in your community. That's the aspect that I think Christiana missed in the conversation.
I enjoy Simon Sinek and think he is brilliant. When it comes to history the assumption that tribal cultures ALWAYS are hierarchical is mistaken. This is patriarchal thinking. In tribal cultures with a matriarcal structure there is not strict hierarchy and they function much more like the tribe Trevor described. The problem isn't just modern capitalism -- it is patriarchal modern capitalism.
Matriarchs often had a sort of “top dog” woman too. As far as I can gather, tribal cultures respected and followed whoever was most helpful to the group. Tyrants get killed when y’all sleep unprotected
I love Christina's perspective so much. I want to hear her speak more. Although the banter between trevor and christiana is funny, i feel like she is interrupted and shut down a lot. Or people end up reexplaning her opinion and claiming it as their own. Still, overall, a great conversation and i love them both.
This convo started by the discussion of the relationship between the two men and how they discuss/ challenge each other about modern life.. Nobody shuts this woman down…
She's just being stubborn just for being stubborn. Simon just proven to her that she prefers to work in an environment she likes rather then just make money
Christiana brings a meaningful and often dismissed perspective. An opportunity was missed here. Nonetheless, What Now is my favorite podcast in a long while.
I firmly believe in the Peter Principle that says that “people rise to the level of their incompetence”. I asked my manager a question about something I was puzzled about that had to do with my job, and she replied, “I have no idea what you are talking about”.
I am so impressed with Simon’s description of human behavior in relation to tribal norms. We do honor our alphas and do them favors but Friedman messed us up with his greedy change in capitalism. Yes, the alphas are expected to keep the tribe happy and healthy by taking care of us with whatever tools we have. Present day alphas are going to get taken down. I never thought of that in such a clear and simple way. brilliant
I enjoyed the tension on this episode very much needed in the podcast space. Of course I,m always laughing my ass of as well as learning and having my own parasocial relationship with the subject matter. This episode I found myself engaged in another way. I was titliated. I never use that word hence the misspelling but yea, good episode as usual.
Christiane was very much like "duuuude you are so close to figuring out socialism but you're to much of a white finance bro to realise it" during the whole speech about service at the end
36:36 For lack of a better description, Lee Kuan Yew was the "benevolent dictator" that Singapore needed in our founding years. We are "pragmatists" rather than "capitalist" or "socialist". So our nation's story may be good material for you guys... On separating work with family, I see our lives as constantly moving about in a house. At one time I need to be in the kitchen, at others bedroom, toilet, bedroom etc. We have problems when we spend too much time in one room (eg., always at work). Some rooms' privacy must be protected (space for spouse - bedroom, space for self - bathroom) and enough time must be allocated for them. There can be overlaps, when we share different rooms with some people (eg friends at work and social "rooms"). Discussions become difficult when we draw hard lines to separate family, social, work parts of life.
My favorite session to date...and you've had some good ones, my friends. Serving others, showing love and compassion outside ourselves is how we are designed. That is gold, right there.
This is an important conversation. The world needs a more ethical, transparent, democratic and inclusive form of a capitalism, which is based on long term value and considers both human, organisational as well as societal and ecological value.
I work in an office environment. I never thought teaching was that until I started having the same experiences as my friends in corporate including hearing words like "holding space" etc. I can't say that I don't gossip but I don't like when people neg you waiting for a response and it continues each year. I have a life outside of work and that's where I want to invest my time we shouldn't be penalized for that so I agree about separation of work and personal life.
I love Christiana's perspective in this conversation. It's just as strong as Trevor & Simon's perspectives. Role of "gossip" in regards to safeguarding a woman's workplace livelihood in a male-dominant work culture is a interesting topic to explore. (I don't know if I'm wording my thoughts effectively 😮).
Life is the sweetest when you live in the space between humility and gratitude. It is to say I live a life I have not earned which is the state of every living creature (we aren’t born out of our own works) and we take account of all that we have with sincere appreciation for it and all of those who contribute.
I think Trevor's cohost uses gossip as a way to vent and that is why she had the perspective that gossip is crucial rather than something that is toxic. So its not that we need a new term. I think Trevor's cohost has a different interpretation of gossip that is closer to Simon's definition of venting. She is confusing venting with gossip and in her reality that is why she mentioned it as interchangeable whereas they are actually 2 very different concepts that she is yet to understand. Gossip is definitely not history
I think it's also cultural, because what could be called gossip for people of an African background can and has been "oral history." Because that is how many people passed down stories of suffering, wrongdoings, who to be mindful for, as well as traditions and storytelling, and that has been invaluable for the people.
@psychogothkitty it's just oral history. Gossip has a negative connotation and shouldn't be paired with oral history. This is purely English as a second language misunderstandings. History is passed down. No one says gossip We don't say they gossiped as a way to pass the history to the younger generation. We told stories we didn't gossip stories
Huge fan of both Simon and Trevor. Experiencing them interact is the equivalent of strawberries and chocolate. A great combination where the individual components enhance each other into something special that everyone can enjoy.
I have enjoyed the insightful verbal sparring between Simon and Trevor from the past and really enjoyed todays show. Adding Christiania was a delightful addition by adding a woman’s perspective as well. More please!
Golden. Three brilliant minds and hearts being transparent around the issues that matter most. Thank you, it was joy listening to all of you. 👑💜 P.s.: I love how Trevor is always looking out for everybody to rise with him, his comrades are a testament to this. Genuinely interested and committed, adding to the benevolence and progress of our troubled human family.
This is crystallizing a sadness I’ve had amongst my friends and lack of community - no one comes to me for help. To talk about problems or physical help. They all have their other people they go to. I’m all alone so I go to them but I don’t have the opportunity for service with them and I want that. I don’t want a one sided friendship. It feels like something big is missing. And it explains why I pour so much effort into my failed romantic partners. Still on the search for other lonely people out there where we can be a community and support system for each other. I should revisit broader service organizations. Thanks for the motivation
Thanks, Trevor, this was really great! What resonated the most for me, is to find your personal Why. As Mark Twain wrote: What are the two most important days in your life? "The day you are born and the day you find out why,"
Gossip can be really abusive and I am a woman. It can destroy them and I honestly find it to be psychological abuse. fundamentally it is just a way to hurt someone. It's another way to hurt vulnerable people. Venting is different than gossip. If you can't say it to their face then you are ultimately being problematic and adding to a cultural problem.
Wow! 😲Is it my birthday?!? 🧁🧁 Two episodes of Trevor and Simon show up in my YT feed around the same time??! 🙏🙏 I'm feeling blessed and lucky. And I'm looking forward to more Trevor and Simon collaboration episodes jam packed with intellectual and insightful conversation filled with their positive energy. Great episode with these two!! 😃😃
My contract with a company eneded this month. It was a 6 month contract. They had set up unrealistic sales target expectations, make horrific financial decisions and the ceo was demoted to head of sales and they were terrible at that job. Plus I needed to report to them. That person created a toxic work environment for me and yet I believed in the product and saw the potential and put more than 100% into my role. I laid an extraordinary foundation of sales that will come to fruition in 2025 and met 24% of their unrealistic sales goals, but they opted not to renew my contract as they could not afford me. Instead of firing the ceo who was demoted to head of sales and made terrible decisions, my results under their conditions was chosen to be not good enough for the company to keep me yet they will be working on the ground work I set forth for them. Unbelievable.
For me personally, listening to this woman was exhausting, as she seemed to have a strong opinion of her own and appeared unwilling to consider other perspectives.
Thanks for the episode, I appreciate the focus on the personal reality and “why”, where as the Noah on the Sinek podcast episode seemed to focus on the macro reality. Almost like the other side of the coin of this episode.
if you work hard for something you believe in ,that's "PASSATION" if you work hard for something you don't believe in ,that's "STRESS" ,what a profound meaning .
Gossip is culturally healthy, especially for women. That's how they communicated and stayed safe throughout history. It's looked down on because it's historically female. As she stated it's warnings for who to stay away from and what is happening culturally that might present opportunities. I actually disagree with the guys on venting. Never ever vent about your personal or professional life at work to anyone, even a work bestie. People play around and find out at work. I never talk about my personal life (only my pet) and never complain at work (only bring up problems w solutions). You never want to be negative Nancy or the one who talk sh*t all the time. People will know they can't trust you. Same with the Gossip, it has to careful and thought out. You can't just say all the things all the time without discernment. Basically always be smart when you open your mouth at work, so people trust you.
Words have power and storytelling comes with great responsibility. It is a tool that can build and it can also destroy. Gossip as storytelling can be a powerful weapon also because it doesn't require accountability, only the author's perspective. When I encounter a gossip, I learn more about them than what they are saying and I absolutely steer clear of them. Also I'm a woman and I think gossip is weaponized against women the most not men.
yeah, i respect simon's position but i feel like the idea that venting at work is beneficial is definitely something that's more true for men. for example, if women vent about their kids, they may be taken less seriously in the future because subconsciously people may think they're not as focused on working.
Chris is so right on gossip and the history of it and the role it had in protecting women and it still does in in this age. We’re protecting each other with what is called gossip.. I felt like Christina was interrupted so much she couldn’t get to the point she was trying to make!! very annoying, even though I love Simon and Trevor they were interrupting her all the time when she was trying to explain the history of gossip and its role in protecting the people, especially women
Disagree. A girl friend and I used to take a week and invite other women friends to five nights of dinners. She didn’t know my friends and I didn’t know hers because we wanted no gossip. Fascinating …great meals and conversations…and because nobody knew else anyone knew…no names, little of no personal criticisms, but plenty of discussion about women navigating the world.
Sorry to be so long winded here - never actually commented on a Podcast before. But I loved the "... Bosses Idiots?" podcast. Wish I had listened to it closer to the time it was first available so my comments could be more timely aligned. But this fired me up, so here goes ... I recently retired after a fantastic 37 year run with a software company that started from the ground up included 5 corporate acquisitions and mergers, and thus was a part of both small entrepreneurial and large corporate org structures, So much of what I've observed and reflected on over the years was captured in this Podcast dialog - Thank you Trevor, Simon, and Christiana. I have just a few thoughts/comments relevant to the Podcast: 1- Early on, there was a good bit of discussion about "Strategic" and "Tactical" skillsets. I could not agree more that good strategic leaders understand "Tactical" much more than tactical-talented people truly understand strategic thinking. The example of Finance people thinking they could lead/manage marketing activities is spot on. I witnessed first hand the multi-decade shift of Finance from a supporting entity who sat in the background supporting the organization efforts to make good products and happy customers, to being the most influential driver at the top of the management food chain. The Finance director seems to be the Right Hand Man to every top executive I've met in the past 15 years. True strategy toward good product and happy customers is second (or maybe 3rd). Sad really, but a hard truth. What was unfortunate in the Strategy-Tactical conversation was that (my observation) the terms "manager" and "leader" were too frequently used synonymously. I think the Podcasters intended them to be different, they just didn't clearly state it. In my experience, a "manager" is tactical. I would directly equate Leader to Strategic and Manager to Tactical, and care should be taken when using the terms. While I'm sure there may be exceptions, I still wish that point would have been a part of the conversation. If anyone out there is old enough to have ever read Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, there are great examples of this. "Leaders focus on vision and direction, determining what needs to be accomplished. Managers, on the other hand, ensure that these visions are executed efficiently and effectively". Covey describes a group of people cutting their way through the jungle with machetes, representing the producers or problem solvers. The managers are behind them, sharpening their machetes, writing policy manuals, and setting up schedules, The leader, however, is the one who climbs the tallest tree, surveys the entire situation, and yells, "Wrong jungle!". This means that leaders have a broader perspective and ensure that the team is heading in the right direction, rather than just focusing on the immediate tasks, Both are needed, but they are different and its rare to find someone who is both. 2 - My last point/question is a bit shallow and political, but ... I loved the later topic/discussion of capitalism, or the "bastardized version of capitalism we have today". Beautifully explained in the Podcast in my opinion. Milton Friedman's late 70s business definition was discussed (I never really knew about that). This all has lead (among other things) Sinek argues, to what we see now with the wealthy getting richer and the poor working saps getting poorer. Lots of other interesting discussion too. This then lead to Noah talking about an AOC posting/survey trying to understand why people voting for Trump and for her (two drastically different minds and value sets.) A key reason, Noah shares, is that both Trump and AOC want to "dismantle" the system and thus disrupt this ugly "bastardized version of capitalism we have today". I would have loved to have asked the Podcasters - While both want to dismantle the system, what is their end goal for dismantling? My sense is AOC wants to dismantle so as to make life better for everyone and somehow close the wealth gap. Trump's reasons are more (I believe) to make it easier for companies to do well under the bastardized capitalism version definition, which would have the obvious opposite effect that AOC desires and instead widen the gap (i.e. making it easier for the execs to meet their quotas and reap their incentive benefits at the expense of the employees and environment). Hearing people like Noah and Sinek chat about this make the picture clearer in my mind. Again, thank you for the podcast and stimulating discussion. 'nuf said. The end.
I also agree we need to find another term for "gossip". When does exchange of information end and where does gossip begin? You can learn so much by talking about other people - how people behave, why they do what they do, it helps you to understand the world. This information exchange was also an evolutionary driver - it helps you to know who to trust for survival and who is shady. Also, with "gossiping" has a sociological function of bonding and makes you connect with people with the same values as you. I totally agree that talking about other people should always be fact-oriented, respectful and kind. Btw: There is research that suggests that, quantitatively speaking, women and men engage in the same amount of gossiping activity - even if there are gender-based differences in the subject of gossip (Eckhaus et al.). Men gossiping is often framed less negatively, e.g. as "locker-room talk" - but that's another rabbit hole....
Gossip is when you talk about a person without knowing actual details, making assumptions and spreading them. Christina definitely doesn’t seem to know what that term means. Not only did she not actually know but then decided to call it something else. She should have just stuck to her made up term with her own definitions.
This podcast is typically fascinating. What stood out most in this episode for me was actually how frequently Simon Sinek interrupts people to assert his ideas. As a white man myself, this feels very disrespectful and dismissive of significant cultural and historical context to the reality of what he represents. I cringed when he spoke about his experience in Kenya. I am not dismissing that was his experience, but it seemed out of touch with the context in which he was sharing it. It also didn’t answer the question. I think he could learn to be more humble and curious, like Trevor. Christiana brought up a lot of valid points that felt dismissed. This was a missed opportunity for Simon to lean into curiosity and humility. It felt like he had a personal and urgent need to justify his perspective about work. It should not be lost on him that he is a white man of European heritage essentially telling a woman of African heritage about meaning at work and the importance of service. I may have misinterpreted but I sensed some lip biting on Christiana’s part. I wondered what more she may have said had she not been dismissed. I think all parties had valuable perspectives and points and I appreciated the lively discussion. I also hope Simon reflects on some of his own issues going on unconsciously during this conversation, sits with them, and makes this an opportunity to learn and grow.
One "why" your entire life. I can get behind that. My why has always been to be better than those that came before me. A better parent. A better spouse. A better human. Everything I do, I do to prove to myself that, love and joy and safety can be created despite the lack that came before. I'm not perfect. But I am certainly better (by my own understanding of better).
Great episode. Although I really appreciated Simon’s comments about service at the end, I was otherwise unconvinced with his take. He settles on this status quo idea of “well this is how the world just works”. But isn’t that the problem? By his own analysis, companies can create space for employees to achiever better purpose, a greater sense of community, etc. if they are appropriately managed. But company’s have incentive structures that prevent CEO’s from implementing those policies. So the status quo is for companies to prioritize profit over community. With the exception of some CEO’s, corporations in general won’t change. Simon admits that this was the case with the boss who bluntly stated he prefers his bonus. So, how does he expect companies to suddenly embrace community values without removing the incentive structures that prevent this? And knowing that companies purpose is to make profit above all, how are employees supposed to derive purpose in their work, especially when they are often not getting a share of that profit?
I really had a great time watching this….i had just the opportunity to watch this two (simon and trevor) at simon’s channel..and now this?? Happy me really😊😊
@@SiphehZunfortunately some of us talk in sarcasm and knowing when to turn it off and on can bypass you especially when you're in comfortable company😬😅
That was a really hard listen. I love Simon Sinek and I love Trevor and Christiana had amazing points and you guys are always interrupting her and I listen to it again just to see if I was imagining it and it was really hard for me to maintain my cool about that because you never interrupt each other and she never interrupts you
Be one of the first subscribers to the podcast! bit.ly/SubscribeToWhatNowPodcast 🙌 What are your thoughts on the episode?
I liked the questions posed to identify the ‘why’ of you and think that once this is understood by more of us, it can allow for a more harmonious discussion on the topics of workplaces and redefine ways of working that aligns with purpose for all whilst considering our uniqueness.
Perhaps those tribe members understand their why more clearly ;🤣@“you go to the store to get meat?!”🤣
Also appreciate the gold nugget on the key to elevating the self by offering service to others.
Trevor, you’re the bomb at diffusing tension with laughter. Enjoyed every minute of this episode.
This is gold! Cheers from Brazil to y'all, Trevs, Chris and Simon!
nailed it with the 'soul sucking experience' 👏🏼👏🏼cuz we all want to be on a 🎠🎠🎠 instead, or whatever it is for us. Look what you've done now, you've given me homework to think about 😀
great episode, aaand I see there's more of you with Simon..yeah!
I love how inquisitive both Cristiana and Trevor engaged in this dialogue. Specially by the end. Because I agree the shortcomings of this purpose seeking framework is that it disregards the work experience of the large majority of people (as workers in the conditions of David Greber’s bullshit jobs).
Who is the co-host? 😊
Something I'd push back on is this idea of separation between who you are at work and who you are as a person. In my experience it gives a pass to people to ruin other people's lives and take no responsibility for their cruelty by saying "it's just business". Secondly, society is set up for us to spend the majority of our lives at our jobs. So what you are saying if you disregard that as a criteria to judge a person is that where someone spends most of their time and energy does not count towards whether they are considered a good person or not.
Agreed. Also, masks are part of costumes. Everyome wears costumes/masks. Who a person is at work is actual a person dressed in costume/mask, not a different person. What you choose to play/cosplay is precisely the essence of who someone is in leisure and in business togther.
To add to this, you can be a hard, pushy, strict boss but still be a good person. In other words you may push people, you may expect a lot of people, and it can be done in a respectful and positive way if you are a good person and treat others accordingly. Just because you're at work doesn't give you an excuse to be an a$$hole, and if you are one at work it's probably because you just are one period.
Totally agree. That's why capitalism continues to have permission to push past human care and moral boundaries that have led to the United Health Care CEO being assassinated. Every aspect of life, including labor, shouldn't be "up for sale to the highest bidder" or can be thrown under the bus for any lucrative shareholder offer that comes to pass.
The two greatest excuses that, when we hear them, we are in agreement that the behavior is wrong, AND not an effing thing is going to be done about it, are: boys will be boys; it’s just business.
you find both of these abhorrent , as do I, you can help dismantle the patriarchy. We women have plenty of work for you able-bodied men
Just said what was on my mind! I won’t trust someone who treats shit with Janitors and angel with his family! He is doubled-faced hypocrite
Christiana's contributions to this episode were so invaluable because while I didn't agree with what she was saying, it helped me challenge myself to understand why I was so discomforted by some of the points she made. Thank you Christiana. I think there are people privileged enough to be centered in social and spiritual settings that have not become untethered from their social groups from micro (family) to macro (historical culture and identity). This is a privilege that not all people have. There was just a lot of privilege laden in these statements. First, labor is labor regardless of the system of rules by which it operates. Some labor is paid; some is unpaid. Social settings also require labor (usually inequitably so). And to Trevor's point sometimes people do unpaid social labor willingly because it serves them personally and experience joy and sometimes they don't. Somatic capacity greatly informs these experiences. Who has the energy to work in all these settings: the paid setting (to buy food and shelter), the usual unpaid family setting (to give and receive emotional food of love and nurture), the (fill in the blank) spiritual setting (to affirm and receive spiritual love and nurture) differs greatly based on social privilege. But all these settings to be well and productive and supportive and fulfilling takes energy. So having the energy to do all this work is a privilege also; though it can be cultivated. HOWEVER, historically there has been so much exploitation of the not privileged (insert identity group) in the U.S. The notion that social unpaid labor in social settings is per se rewarding (and not exploitative) while paid labor in all "private" settings is de facto exploitative or dangerous is a false dichotomy, at least for me (as a cis-femme). As if! capitalism or socialism or benevolent monarchy or democracy has ever accounted for the exploitative, involuntary AND unpaid labor of the exploited in any setting. Imo, having been raised in a social community that did not produce safe, affirming, joyful spaces for me as a child and young person, I at first chose a profession that would give me autonomy but it came with highly stressful and toxic work environments. But the freedom to control and decide how and when I use my labor when I watched people "struggle" in near poverty wage employment around me was integral to my education and professional journey. So when I woke up from that nightmare and started choosing joy, it necessarily meant I had to choose a safer place to do my paid (survival) work while I cultivated joy in social settings. So ultimately what I heard Christiana say is that she feels affirmed by the social communities of her upbringing which is beautiful and wonderful for her. It is simply not a universal experience. Some of us who are untethered from deeply rooted social "belonging" groups must create or cultivate those communities for ourselves. Joy is the core to what I choose to cultivate. So I really enjoyed that you all touched on a lot of the things that I have experienced even though I would have described it in different language. I maybe would have loved to hear a more direct acknowledgement not just of an unwarranted difference in treatment (read inequity) within paid labor systems but about unwarranted differences in treatment (read inequity) around unpaid labor in social institutions (like families ,churches, civic groups, and other identity groups) as well. Great talk though. loving the podcasts.
Some good points. It sounds a lot too that culture, experience, and other things completely contribute to the perspectives you and Christiana gave (and obviously that applies to Trevor and Simon too). This is kind of a "duh" statement and was even brought up a bit from Christiana but perhaps worth reminding ourselves as to why such stark differences. I would love to have a convo with you and Christiana on this topic and see what she might have had to say to the points you brought up. I understood what you said to be that our communities can sometimes be a source of unfair, purposeless, unjoyful labor just as the job can and that we may feel we have to look elsewhere like with a career if our experience with community growing up wasn't as fulfilling or fruitful or connective the way it seems Christiana's is/was.
And where everyone kind of lands together here is that there are so many of us who don't currently have a community, we didn't have one perhaps ever or one was too underdeveloped, we aren't fulfilled or find joy with our careers/jobs/work, and it seems the problem is growing.
I have so many questions and views stemming from the topics discussed in this episode. I wish there was a better way to discuss it all and with people like Trevor, Simon, Christiana, and yourself.
I think Dee has a much more thought out version of my take on it, but for me I would much rather do work that I find meaningful than work that I find meaningless and to some extent the compensation doesn't matter. If someone offered me a million dollars a year to go dig and then fill in holes vs 80,000 to build roads I would take the second job in a heartbeat because I would be absolutely miserable spending all my time achieving and building towards nothing.
Just a fascinating difference in perspective.
Nah, it was just rude and over speaking. The wole time we want to hear Simon, not a gossip lover -_-
A tip:
Hold shift and press enter to create line shift (paragraphs).
Makes it easier to read lots of text.
I believe our society often teaches us to dislike our work instead of encouraging us to find something we genuinely love. Of course, it’s important that we can still provide for our families, but when we learn to be true to ourselves and enjoy what we do, we become happier and can make even greater contributions to our communities. It’s truly a blessing to love your work. I hope more people realize this, discover their true passions, and follow a path that truly aligns with who they are.
but there are A LOT of jobs that HAVE to be done that NO ONE would "love" ...
@@DrAshaPrasad well there’s an elitist comment because not everyone has the luxury of getting to do something they really love. But it is important to know what your boundaries are around Any job you do, and to feel like you are being properly compensated and respected.
@@cabrown308 I completely agree with you, being respected and properly compensated is very important no matter what the job is.
@@Xenophrenia It’s true we can’t always love our jobs, but as long as we feel respected, find some pride in our work, and receive fair compensation, that can make a difference.
Solución: "Universal Basic income" para tener "resources" suficiente para sobrevivir en sociedad moderna. Trabajos opcional sin demasiado mucho "pressure"
There is so much to love, but the way Simon grins at Trevor, such a pure display of appreciation for a person. Simon, I know the feeling - first-hand 😅.
Thank you for allowing us the privilege of sitting in on such an impactful conversation. Even in disagreement there was mutual respect and a desire to understand one another's perspective, we desperately need more of that throughout politics and society as a whole.
2 of my favorite people, 2 times in a week together. Outstanding 😊
I said the same thing! It really is the holidays haha
I'll never understand why certain people insist on their own definitions...
It's just not how language works. The whole gossip conversation was PAIN.
I agree. I think their debate is frustrating because they’re not really disagreeing, other than disagreeing on the definition. But I think Christiana’s point about how policies punishing gossip ultimately only protects the bosses is important. Since leadership decides what qualifies as “gossip”, there’s room for abuse in interpretation. The “punishing” or “banning” of gossip is really a censorship of criticism rather than a healthy corporate initiative.
Elaborate please
@@ryankluck5041 we have this problem where I work. They want to control the narrative outside of work on people's own time so they don't want us getting drinks together after work, or talk about anyone outside of the office and efforts the company makes to quell any tension does not come across well to employees.
The example that Christina brought up is good, cause I’ve worked in a work place with a very similar situation where a women, warned all of us about a male co-worker. A month or so later she got brought in to a HR meeting about gossiping and spreading harmful rumours about him. Even though the women only made sure not to be one on one with him, they all still talked to him, even invited him to events that most of the co-workers were invited to. What She, the women at work and seemingly Simon & Trevor perceived as a warning, work deemed gossip.
Recent case in point seems to be that of Lively vs Baldoni on workplace sexual harassment where there seemed to be something worrying going on, provisions made to get ahead of the perceived problem that there were whispers about, & a corporate PR wide-ranging effort to stamp out anyone seeming not to join the program.
Words to describe how impactful this conversation are hard to find - all I can say is Thank You to all three of you. Listening and watching how you interact has made my day
I literally just finished watching you guys on Simon's channel.
Me too hhh
Thank you algo
same haha
sameeeee
Same.
I found Simon’s comment particularly insightful: *"...they try to choose people who believe in the same values, who are cultural contributors rather than cultural fits."* I also appreciated Trevor Noah’s observation that the *"purpose, meaning, and why"* behind one’s motivation to work is constantly shifting.
A few other points stood out to me as well. For instance, the notion that *"...the outcome is a bonus"* feels strikingly out of sync with the corporate world’s priorities. Additionally, Simon’s connection of this individual’s “why” to her identity as a Protector was especially compelling and touching at the same time.
Really enjoyed this episode!
Surprisingly, this interview fell a bit short for me. But I appreciated Christiana's viewpoint and felt seen. Thank you to Christiana, Trevor and crew for your work in putting these together.
Great conversation. This is proof that there's a huge segment of the population who have a different perspective around purpose. In the end, as Simon said it best - we are all wired for service, but educated for greed. "The goal is not to convince the skeptics. The goal is to rally those who believe what we believe". Thoroughly enjoyed this chat! Simon Sinek, Africa is ready for you!
Very good distinction between (ill-intentioned) gossip and (socially responsible, truth-focused) history telling, Trevor.
Thank you.
Those are good communication rules: Socrates rules: 1. is that true, 2. is useful, 3, is positive. Do not generalize, show empathy, ask questions, do not judge, criticize or give advice, just ask questions.
@@celiamoreno5117 should it be interpreted like this : Do not generalize, do not judge, do not criticize, do not give advice instead show empathy and ask question?
I do value Christiana's views and the perspective she gave that raised my awarness, and yes there is a but. Sometimes she is over explaining and at times disruptive to the flow of the conversation, sometimes overtalking Simon and Trevor. However I love her in the one-to-one conversation with Trevor, where she truly shines.
She got to make her point, although not fully. And so, in the end, not much was said about not finding one’s purpose in the workplace, or if one has to at all cost do so in other to join that corporate image being projected - the latter may even ring hollow looking inwards &/ around you in that office space.
@@nanaasafu-adjaye4239 They subtly pointed out that she was being hypocritical.
This was a great episode. I love that Christina was a part of this conversation for so many reasons. She brings great thought out perspectives and matches the energy the guys bring g 👏🏾 👏🏾
She certainly had a tough gig to elevate her conversation to the world-class levels that Trevor and Simon operate at. But I think she lost the room with her ‘Gossip is oral history’ point. She admitted that people can have a tendency to embellish gossip stories beyond what is factually true. Gossip is a pernicious form of spreading one-sided, unevidenced anecdotes that purport to be true without the subject having the right to reply. That’s not to excuse any company of not having an affective, anonymous whistleblowing procedure for legitimate grievances. But don’t leave this task to the gossip-merchants.
I hate gossip. It’s a cancer. Such great conversation and wonderful example of how to wrestle with different perspectives.
I also hate gossip and absolutely refused to take part in it in the last few years, but I decided to relax my priciples on that because I realized exactly what Christiana was saying: I didn`t pass on knowledge about men who were a problem at my work to other women. And collegues started to not trust me because my complete neutrality made them feel like I am hiding something or that I am "not on their team".
I think there is some necessary flow of information in gossip, just don`t engage in the mean spirited stuff.
@@anthill1510 But then how do you distinguish between the right and wrong type of "gossip", cause once you open the gates without a clear separation of the 2, you will get alllll of it to a point that you might even see the good intentions getting lost by the amount of bad results from the rest of gossip
@@leshegomokganya2416the difference is evidence based observations vs feelings based assumptions, from how I understood the conversation
I was taught really good distinction. Facts vs feelings vs judgements. Someone can feel sketched out by someone, judge they’re a bad person, but have no facts supporting it. Or there could be facts to support that the judgement of the person as harmful is true. But it shouldn’t be based on feelings alone because we are often mistaken
Christina and Simon coming together at the end is just absolutely BEAUTIFUL!
This is a great conversation and I appreciate what everyone brought to the table. As a small business owner, who is finally coming into a much needed CEO position (for years I worked "in" the company rather than working "on" the company), the valuable insights brought up here are very valuable to me and, I imagine, other business owners. I really want to build a company culture based on positive values that are upheld every day.
I do want to point out that, several times, when Christina was offering a controversial and profound insight, both Trevor and Simon interrupted and talked over her. I'd like to offer the gentlemen the opportunity to learn to listen first rather than loudly impart their opinions.
True that. Didn’t allow her to fully develop her argument, & so some of the counter-arguments fell short addressing her point. Time constraint was another factor in that free-wheeling discussion.
Oh interesting, because I felt like she and Simon were really doing that. Both impassioned by their own thoughts and not waiting and listening but formulating and responding without truly hearing the other out. Time constraints probably play a big part in that.
I thought each person had the opportunity to have their say.
Genuinely a wonderful conversation. Thank you all for it!
Yes
What I hear from Christiana is that she criticizes a broader system that prioritizes creating purpose within for-profit companies out of capitalistic motivations. Instead, the system should work to enhance infrastructure that supports and sustains community building-a humanistic goal. There's nothing wrong with finding purpose in or enjoying your work, but the issue lies in intenionally inventing a purpose purely to make a company more profitable and therefore changing how our society works. That profoundly contradicts with her values, threatens how her personal world is functioning and that's why this subject touched her so much.
Thank you for your input, Christiana!
I second your observation on where she seemed to be coming from in her position. I have experienced different corporate adherence to those (feel-good) values they claim to promote. In the end it ends up that the individual employee may need to pivot & embrace fully those values out of necessity, as any dissent is viewed as going against the grain, & therefore, not being a team player.
I think its important to emphasise how you vent. Have hobbies, don’t just lash out
Watching this episode in the office. I find what Christiana's point makes sense. "Gossip" is a point communal safety. And from a Black women perspective its very much needed in places that tend to be hostile by default.
Yeah I think she just didn't explain it well enough, and the others maybe didn't try enough to flesh it out and understand it either. Gossip of "he's lazy" vs gossip of "don't be alone with him" is vastly different stuff. I'd love to live in a world where HR processes could be trusted but many companies don't even have HR or if they do it's incredibly undeveloped. So gossip fills that void for employee safety. But gossip is definitely problematic as well.
Thanks!
Trevor, I love your mind.
I feel or think that Christiana and Trevor and Simon are saying the same thing just from different points of view and with different terminologies/descriptions. They all are talking about purpose/community/tribe/source of fulfilment but Simon says you can get it anywhere including your place of work/job, Christiana says nope, you shouldn't get it anywhere else but your community if they get it from work people won't fix our broken community, while Trevor is just in between. I side with Simon, you can get tribe/feeling of contribution by building a pyramid or working in a purpose driven company or coming together to build a house for a neighbour who needs a house. Let's not exclude the company as a place for that... but yes, we need the bowling leagues back.
I feel like Trevor’s always in the between😂
I’m with Simon too! Like he said, it’s a shift in corporate culture bc the ppl wanted it-totally agree
A sense of fulfillment at work doesn't negate any opportunity for a sense of fulfillment in your community. That's the aspect that I think Christiana missed in the conversation.
I enjoy Simon Sinek and think he is brilliant. When it comes to history the assumption that tribal cultures ALWAYS are hierarchical is mistaken. This is patriarchal thinking. In tribal cultures with a matriarcal structure there is not strict hierarchy and they function much more like the tribe Trevor described. The problem isn't just modern capitalism -- it is patriarchal modern capitalism.
The patriarchal mindset was also present when talking about gossip and downplaying what Christiana was explaining about gossip.
well put
Matriarchs often had a sort of “top dog” woman too. As far as I can gather, tribal cultures respected and followed whoever was most helpful to the group. Tyrants get killed when y’all sleep unprotected
I love Christina's perspective so much. I want to hear her speak more. Although the banter between trevor and christiana is funny, i feel like she is interrupted and shut down a lot. Or people end up reexplaning her opinion and claiming it as their own. Still, overall, a great conversation and i love them both.
This convo started by the discussion of the relationship between the two men and how they discuss/ challenge each other about modern life.. Nobody shuts this woman down…
I love Trevor is back again! I missed his intelligent discussions on the daily show. It's pure brain food.
She's just being stubborn just for being stubborn. Simon just proven to her that she prefers to work in an environment she likes rather then just make money
This is ABSOLUTELY why we listen. Thank you
Double doses of awesomeness😍 from A bit of Optimism to What Now🦋🌹
I am listening carefully to a lot of podcasts. But this one nailed me. I subscribed, thank you all . ❤
Christiana brings a meaningful and often dismissed perspective. An opportunity was missed here. Nonetheless, What Now is my favorite podcast in a long while.
I firmly believe in the Peter Principle that says that “people rise to the level of their incompetence”. I asked my manager a question about something I was puzzled about that had to do with my job, and she replied, “I have no idea what you are talking about”.
I am so impressed with Simon’s description of human behavior in relation to tribal norms. We do honor our alphas and do them favors but Friedman messed us up with his greedy change in capitalism. Yes, the alphas are expected to keep the tribe happy and healthy by taking care of us with whatever tools we have. Present day alphas are going to get taken down.
I never thought of that in such a clear and simple way. brilliant
"Do I seek to hire someone that is a cultural contributor or just a cultural fit?" -- Great conversation!
I enjoyed the tension on this episode very much needed in the podcast space. Of course I,m always laughing my ass of as well as learning and having my own parasocial relationship with the subject matter. This episode I found myself engaged in another way. I was titliated. I never use that word hence the misspelling but yea, good episode as usual.
Christiane was very much like "duuuude you are so close to figuring out socialism but you're to much of a white finance bro to realise it" during the whole speech about service at the end
This is one of the best episodes. Christiana makes it so interesting. 🥰
Thanks a lot.
Great point @simonsinek. Phenomenal perspective on leadership
36:36 For lack of a better description, Lee Kuan Yew was the "benevolent dictator" that Singapore needed in our founding years. We are "pragmatists" rather than "capitalist" or "socialist". So our nation's story may be good material for you guys...
On separating work with family, I see our lives as constantly moving about in a house. At one time I need to be in the kitchen, at others bedroom, toilet, bedroom etc. We have problems when we spend too much time in one room (eg., always at work). Some rooms' privacy must be protected (space for spouse - bedroom, space for self - bathroom) and enough time must be allocated for them. There can be overlaps, when we share different rooms with some people (eg friends at work and social "rooms"). Discussions become difficult when we draw hard lines to separate family, social, work parts of life.
This was one of my favorite convos you've done
LOVED This!!! Thank you all for this mentally stimulating conversation
My favorite session to date...and you've had some good ones, my friends. Serving others, showing love and compassion outside ourselves is how we are designed. That is gold, right there.
Trevor bra. You and Simon need to do a mini series podcast together. I am searching the internet for all you guys chatting together. So interesting
Oh!!! The return interview! 🤩🤩🤩 What a great present! 🙏😊
This is an important conversation.
The world needs a more ethical, transparent, democratic and inclusive form of a capitalism, which is based on long term value and considers both human, organisational as well as societal and ecological value.
I work in an office environment. I never thought teaching was that until I started having the same experiences as my friends in corporate including hearing words like "holding space" etc. I can't say that I don't gossip but I don't like when people neg you waiting for a response and it continues each year. I have a life outside of work and that's where I want to invest my time we shouldn't be penalized for that so I agree about separation of work and personal life.
I love Christiana's perspective in this conversation. It's just as strong as Trevor & Simon's perspectives. Role of "gossip" in regards to safeguarding a woman's workplace livelihood in a male-dominant work culture is a interesting topic to explore. (I don't know if I'm wording my thoughts effectively 😮).
When does Childhood end?! Totally loved this episode. Thank you Trevor x Christina for doing this. Simon is just out of this world.
Life is the sweetest when you live in the space between humility and gratitude. It is to say I live a life I have not earned which is the state of every living creature (we aren’t born out of our own works) and we take account of all that we have with sincere appreciation for it and all of those who contribute.
"the privitization of a sense of belonging" (50:30) I love this conversation. Christiana rocks.
Best podcast episode to hear! I love that they talked about serving others not just improving one self
Thank you all for this episode. It was wonderful ❤
I think Trevor's cohost uses gossip as a way to vent and that is why she had the perspective that gossip is crucial rather than something that is toxic. So its not that we need a new term. I think Trevor's cohost has a different interpretation of gossip that is closer to Simon's definition of venting. She is confusing venting with gossip and in her reality that is why she mentioned it as interchangeable whereas they are actually 2 very different concepts that she is yet to understand. Gossip is definitely not history
I think it's also cultural, because what could be called gossip for people of an African background can and has been "oral history." Because that is how many people passed down stories of suffering, wrongdoings, who to be mindful for, as well as traditions and storytelling, and that has been invaluable for the people.
@psychogothkitty it's just oral history. Gossip has a negative connotation and shouldn't be paired with oral history. This is purely English as a second language misunderstandings. History is passed down. No one says gossip We don't say they gossiped as a way to pass the history to the younger generation. We told stories we didn't gossip stories
Huge fan of both Simon and Trevor. Experiencing them interact is the equivalent of strawberries and chocolate. A great combination where the individual components enhance each other into something special that everyone can enjoy.
I have enjoyed the insightful verbal sparring between Simon and Trevor from the past and really enjoyed todays show. Adding Christiania was a delightful addition by adding a woman’s perspective as well. More please!
I love what Christiana brings to these discussions ❤️
I just love listening to Trevor’s thought process. So much similarity to how I think about things. How I wrestle.
Golden. Three brilliant minds and hearts being transparent around the issues that matter most. Thank you, it was joy listening to all of you. 👑💜 P.s.: I love how Trevor is always looking out for everybody to rise with him, his comrades are a testament to this. Genuinely interested and committed, adding to the benevolence and progress of our troubled human family.
This is crystallizing a sadness I’ve had amongst my friends and lack of community - no one comes to me for help. To talk about problems or physical help. They all have their other people they go to. I’m all alone so I go to them but I don’t have the opportunity for service with them and I want that. I don’t want a one sided friendship. It feels like something big is missing. And it explains why I pour so much effort into my failed romantic partners. Still on the search for other lonely people out there where we can be a community and support system for each other. I should revisit broader service organizations. Thanks for the motivation
Thanks, Trevor, this was really great! What resonated the most for me, is to find your personal Why. As Mark Twain wrote: What are the two most important days in your life? "The day you are born and the day you find out why,"
Gossip can be really abusive and I am a woman. It can destroy them and I honestly find it to be psychological abuse. fundamentally it is just a way to hurt someone. It's another way to hurt vulnerable people. Venting is different than gossip. If you can't say it to their face then you are ultimately being problematic and adding to a cultural problem.
Wow! 😲Is it my birthday?!? 🧁🧁 Two episodes of Trevor and Simon show up in my YT feed around the same time??! 🙏🙏 I'm feeling blessed and lucky. And I'm looking forward to more Trevor and Simon collaboration episodes jam packed with intellectual and insightful conversation filled with their positive energy. Great episode with these two!! 😃😃
Two brilliant minds coming together. What a masterpiece. 🌈🔥💖🙏🏽🥳
Three brilliant minds ❤
My contract with a company eneded this month. It was a 6 month contract. They had set up unrealistic sales target expectations, make horrific financial decisions and the ceo was demoted to head of sales and they were terrible at that job. Plus I needed to report to them. That person created a toxic work environment for me and yet I believed in the product and saw the potential and put more than 100% into my role. I laid an extraordinary foundation of sales that will come to fruition in 2025 and met 24% of their unrealistic sales goals, but they opted not to renew my contract as they could not afford me. Instead of firing the ceo who was demoted to head of sales and made terrible decisions, my results under their conditions was chosen to be not good enough for the company to keep me yet they will be working on the ground work I set forth for them. Unbelievable.
For me personally, listening to this woman was exhausting, as she seemed to have a strong opinion of her own and appeared unwilling to consider other perspectives.
It's a feast for the ears listening to these guys!❤
That was such an amazing conversation!!! Love it!!❤
Just listened to them on Simon's channel, and this video popped up. yaaay
Thanks for the episode, I appreciate the focus on the personal reality and “why”, where as the Noah on the Sinek podcast episode seemed to focus on the macro reality. Almost like the other side of the coin of this episode.
if you work hard for something you believe in ,that's "PASSATION" if you work hard for something you don't believe in ,that's "STRESS" ,what a profound meaning .
Oh guys... you're amazing !! Yes my brain hurts a bit.. Travor i love you❤
Gossip is culturally healthy, especially for women. That's how they communicated and stayed safe throughout history. It's looked down on because it's historically female. As she stated it's warnings for who to stay away from and what is happening culturally that might present opportunities. I actually disagree with the guys on venting. Never ever vent about your personal or professional life at work to anyone, even a work bestie. People play around and find out at work. I never talk about my personal life (only my pet) and never complain at work (only bring up problems w solutions). You never want to be negative Nancy or the one who talk sh*t all the time. People will know they can't trust you. Same with the Gossip, it has to careful and thought out. You can't just say all the things all the time without discernment. Basically always be smart when you open your mouth at work, so people trust you.
Words have power and storytelling comes with great responsibility. It is a tool that can build and it can also destroy. Gossip as storytelling can be a powerful weapon also because it doesn't require accountability, only the author's perspective. When I encounter a gossip, I learn more about them than what they are saying and I absolutely steer clear of them. Also I'm a woman and I think gossip is weaponized against women the most not men.
yeah, i respect simon's position but i feel like the idea that venting at work is beneficial is definitely something that's more true for men. for example, if women vent about their kids, they may be taken less seriously in the future because subconsciously people may think they're not as focused on working.
Chris is so right on gossip and the history of it and the role it had in protecting women and it still does in in this age. We’re protecting each other with what is called gossip.. I felt like Christina was interrupted so much she couldn’t get to the point she was trying to make!! very annoying, even though I love Simon and Trevor they were interrupting her all the time when she was trying to explain the history of gossip and its role in protecting the people, especially women
Disagree. A girl friend and I used to take a week and invite other women friends to five nights of dinners. She didn’t know my friends and I didn’t know hers because we wanted no gossip. Fascinating …great meals and conversations…and because nobody knew else anyone knew…no names, little of no personal criticisms, but plenty of discussion about women navigating the world.
Loved the dynamic the ending was very climatic but a strong message for the people keep it up!
Sorry to be so long winded here - never actually commented on a Podcast before. But I loved the "... Bosses Idiots?" podcast. Wish I had listened to it closer to the time it was first available so my comments could be more timely aligned. But this fired me up, so here goes ...
I recently retired after a fantastic 37 year run with a software company that started from the ground up included 5 corporate acquisitions and mergers, and thus was a part of both small entrepreneurial and large corporate org structures, So much of what I've observed and reflected on over the years was captured in this Podcast dialog - Thank you Trevor, Simon, and Christiana. I have just a few thoughts/comments relevant to the Podcast:
1- Early on, there was a good bit of discussion about "Strategic" and "Tactical" skillsets. I could not agree more that good strategic leaders understand "Tactical" much more than tactical-talented people truly understand strategic thinking. The example of Finance people thinking they could lead/manage marketing activities is spot on. I witnessed first hand the multi-decade shift of Finance from a supporting entity who sat in the background supporting the organization efforts to make good products and happy customers, to being the most influential driver at the top of the management food chain. The Finance director seems to be the Right Hand Man to every top executive I've met in the past 15 years. True strategy toward good product and happy customers is second (or maybe 3rd). Sad really, but a hard truth.
What was unfortunate in the Strategy-Tactical conversation was that (my observation) the terms "manager" and "leader" were too frequently used synonymously. I think the Podcasters intended them to be different, they just didn't clearly state it. In my experience, a "manager" is tactical. I would directly equate Leader to Strategic and Manager to Tactical, and care should be taken when using the terms. While I'm sure there may be exceptions, I still wish that point would have been a part of the conversation. If anyone out there is old enough to have ever read Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, there are great examples of this. "Leaders focus on vision and direction, determining what needs to be accomplished. Managers, on the other hand, ensure that these visions are executed efficiently and effectively". Covey describes a group of people cutting their way through the jungle with machetes, representing the producers or problem solvers. The managers are behind them, sharpening their machetes, writing policy manuals, and setting up schedules, The leader, however, is the one who climbs the tallest tree, surveys the entire situation, and yells, "Wrong jungle!". This means that leaders have a broader perspective and ensure that the team is heading in the right direction, rather than just focusing on the immediate tasks, Both are needed, but they are different and its rare to find someone who is both.
2 - My last point/question is a bit shallow and political, but ... I loved the later topic/discussion of capitalism, or the "bastardized version of capitalism we have today". Beautifully explained in the Podcast in my opinion. Milton Friedman's late 70s business definition was discussed (I never really knew about that). This all has lead (among other things) Sinek argues, to what we see now with the wealthy getting richer and the poor working saps getting poorer. Lots of other interesting discussion too. This then lead to Noah talking about an AOC posting/survey trying to understand why people voting for Trump and for her (two drastically different minds and value sets.) A key reason, Noah shares, is that both Trump and AOC want to "dismantle" the system and thus disrupt this ugly "bastardized version of capitalism we have today". I would have loved to have asked the Podcasters - While both want to dismantle the system, what is their end goal for dismantling? My sense is AOC wants to dismantle so as to make life better for everyone and somehow close the wealth gap. Trump's reasons are more (I believe) to make it easier for companies to do well under the bastardized capitalism version definition, which would have the obvious opposite effect that AOC desires and instead widen the gap (i.e. making it easier for the execs to meet their quotas and reap their incentive benefits at the expense of the employees and environment). Hearing people like Noah and Sinek chat about this make the picture clearer in my mind.
Again, thank you for the podcast and stimulating discussion.
'nuf said. The end.
Whoa! Just watched these two geniuses on Simon's pod and now here? We are blessed!
this is what the "service learning" is able to do for us and this is the reason why we are trying to introduce it in our schools
I also agree we need to find another term for "gossip". When does exchange of information end and where does gossip begin? You can learn so much by talking about other people - how people behave, why they do what they do, it helps you to understand the world.
This information exchange was also an evolutionary driver - it helps you to know who to trust for survival and who is shady. Also, with "gossiping" has a sociological function of bonding and makes you connect with people with the same values as you. I totally agree that talking about other people should always be fact-oriented, respectful and kind.
Btw: There is research that suggests that, quantitatively speaking, women and men engage in the same amount of gossiping activity - even if there are gender-based differences in the subject of gossip (Eckhaus et al.). Men gossiping is often framed less negatively, e.g. as "locker-room talk" - but that's another rabbit hole....
Gossip is when you talk about a person without knowing actual details, making assumptions and spreading them.
Christina definitely doesn’t seem to know what that term means. Not only did she not actually know but then decided to call it something else.
She should have just stuck to her made up term with her own definitions.
that closing. BOOM. so powerful and true.
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this episode!
This podcast is typically fascinating. What stood out most in this episode for me was actually how frequently Simon Sinek interrupts people to assert his ideas. As a white man myself, this feels very disrespectful and dismissive of significant cultural and historical context to the reality of what he represents. I cringed when he spoke about his experience in Kenya. I am not dismissing that was his experience, but it seemed out of touch with the context in which he was sharing it. It also didn’t answer the question. I think he could learn to be more humble and curious, like Trevor. Christiana brought up a lot of valid points that felt dismissed. This was a missed opportunity for Simon to lean into curiosity and humility. It felt like he had a personal and urgent need to justify his perspective about work. It should not be lost on him that he is a white man of European heritage essentially telling a woman of African heritage about meaning at work and the importance of service. I may have misinterpreted but I sensed some lip biting on Christiana’s part. I wondered what more she may have said had she not been dismissed. I think all parties had valuable perspectives and points and I appreciated the lively discussion. I also hope Simon reflects on some of his own issues going on unconsciously during this conversation, sits with them, and makes this an opportunity to learn and grow.
I am not trying to be some kind of woke white male and I agree with you! I see this guy from a mile away!
100% - Sinek was very much in his ego here and its gross the way he kept interrupting Christiana.
I didn't get that at all. But that's ok. We don't have to have the same view or perception
My current favourite duo😭
This was extremely insightful for me. It was the first time I ever dove deep into my "happiest childhood memory". Thank you.
Thank you for taking your time and making this. It helps it really does .
Thank you for sane conversation. Brilliant.
One "why" your entire life. I can get behind that. My why has always been to be better than those that came before me. A better parent. A better spouse. A better human. Everything I do, I do to prove to myself that, love and joy and safety can be created despite the lack that came before. I'm not perfect. But I am certainly better (by my own understanding of better).
All inspiring Simon, as usual. Great convo!
Excited to watch & listen!
Great episode. Although I really appreciated Simon’s comments about service at the end, I was otherwise unconvinced with his take. He settles on this status quo idea of “well this is how the world just works”. But isn’t that the problem? By his own analysis, companies can create space for employees to achiever better purpose, a greater sense of community, etc. if they are appropriately managed. But company’s have incentive structures that prevent CEO’s from implementing those policies. So the status quo is for companies to prioritize profit over community. With the exception of some CEO’s, corporations in general won’t change. Simon admits that this was the case with the boss who bluntly stated he prefers his bonus. So, how does he expect companies to suddenly embrace community values without removing the incentive structures that prevent this? And knowing that companies purpose is to make profit above all, how are employees supposed to derive purpose in their work, especially when they are often not getting a share of that profit?
I love Trevor’s giggles😂😂
Loved this conversation tremendously 😊
love these wonderful real AND inspirational people!
I really had a great time watching this….i had just the opportunity to watch this two (simon and trevor) at simon’s channel..and now this?? Happy me really😊😊
I love how Christiana kept Simon on his toes.
I just wish she wouldn't make everything kinda jokey.
@@SiphehZunfortunately some of us talk in sarcasm and knowing when to turn it off and on can bypass you especially when you're in comfortable company😬😅
I loved this!I love Simon, but Christiana's viewpoint was absolutely needed and appreciated here.
That was a really hard listen. I love Simon Sinek and I love Trevor and Christiana had amazing points and you guys are always interrupting her and I listen to it again just to see if I was imagining it and it was really hard for me to maintain my cool about that because you never interrupt each other and she never interrupts you
I thought she meant Oral history as gossip as a joke until she starts to defend it.