My dad said "Not that there's anything wrong with that", when speculating that John Lennon looked Jewish, back in the 60's! Damn, he should have Patented the phrase!
I love how Kramer was upset because he felt like Jerry was disrespecting their friendship by not telling him something so deep and personal and not because he was homophobic.
@@aliamcbride Absolutely based. It's still so weird to me in a world where what's "natural" is seen as more important than what's right, the idea of removing parts of your infants genitalia is somehow just a regular ol thing people do
I think it’s interesting to contrast the attitudes depicted in this episode with an episode that came 3 years later, “The Wig Master”. In that one, there’s a scene where Jerry is having drinks with a gay guy, and another guy comes over to the table and asks the gay guy out. Jerry is offended, saying “Are you asking him out right in front of me? How do you know we’re not together?” Jerry feels emasculated because someone doesn’t think he’s gay.
Kinda reminds me of the Golden Girls episode when Dorothy's lesbian friend develops a crush on Rose and Blanche gets offended because she's into Rose rather than her.
I'd forgotten about this episode, but I love that they did it like this because it's totally within Jerry's character to be offended by that, and it's also exactly how a lot of straight people react to their gay feelings not being into them. 😅
The brilliant thing about "not that there's anything wrong with that!" is that it refocuses their panic into being more about maintaining their reputation than anything else. What could be a very homophobic moment becomes just another example of the same hilariously inept self-serving cynicism that the characters approach every situation with, with them trying to find a way to dodge both accusations of homosexuality AND homophobia.
According to the season 4 dvds, The line was a request by either NBC, or Larry David, Jerry Seinfeld, and Larry Charles as a way to not offend the gay community. The constant reassurance that there isnt anything wrong with being gay was still very radical in 1993
Homophobes still think homo-sexuality is an accusation not an obsession with strangers’ sex-lives 😂🤦🏼♀️ In this section : “The more you know, the less you need to say” 🏳️🌈😌💅🏾
My favorite bit from this episode is after they say the line Jerry doubles down with a “some of my best friends are gay” claim when George in his desperation to add to this bursts out with, “My father’s gay!”
I came out to my parents as a lesbian bc they’d always said there was nothing wrong with being gay throughout my whole life… nope turns out they’re just huge Seinfeld fans and had been quoting this episode 😂
I love the "not that there's anything wrong with that" line that is repeated by everyone because it is so refreshingly self aware and honest (and funny). It was written about the exact type of people who would watch the show, progresive and "gay friendly" people who nevertheless still couldnt help have a deep uncomfortableness with being considered gay, whether true or not. It was a great wink at that audience who in turn recognized themselves in that joke and realized how silly they were being with that slight hipocrisy.
If only progressive gay friendly people were Sienfelds audience it would have been a niche show that got canceled early. Seinfeld was watched by everyone, from both sides of the isle, as most shows at that time were.
the thing is, not having a problem with gay people wasn't some fringe ideology (ie 'progressive gay friendly people') and straight people not wanting to be mistaken for or called gay isn't homophobia. it's upsetting in general to be mislabeled.
Kinda wish Matt had added the clip from this episode where Jerry says "People's personal sexual preferences are nobody's business but their own" I feel like that was very bold for the time and really touched me upon rewatch
I thought I've seen every Seinfeld episode, but don't recall that line. Do you recall the plotline? Even if you don't, I'm happy to hear that he said it! One of the reasons that Seinfeld became my favorite 90s sitcom was that as far as I recall, none of the main characters ever tried to put down gay people.
@@DashingPartyCrasher It's from the same episode. Remember when he's on the phone with George after the reporter says she's going to run the story? George shouts in a panic, "Now she thinks we're gay! Not that there's anything wrong with it!" "No!" shouts Jerry, and then shouts the "nobody's business" line as if it's mandatory, not out of sincerity. That was part of the show's charm, their understanding of political correctness while having no actual feelings or principles.
now people are in the streets for month exhibiting their sexual preferences and pushing their "personal preferences" on kids in school. What happens with the line " ...sexual preferences are nobody's business but their own" , you know like private, and Not everybody's else business? Now it is too public and nonstop and everywhere. Where is the privacy of one own business?
@@balauruldeaur1271 No one is pushing anything on kids, that's just a conservative talking point which some homophobes have taken to parroting...they are just trying to teach kids that in fact: "Not that there's anything wrong with it" except some people still think there is
@@balauruldeaur1271 This implies that someone’s sexual preference can be changed, which in and of itself is a conservative talking point. The reason why conversion therapy doesn’t work, the reason why these attempts by religious nuts to “make sure their children turn out straight” (through scare tactics and sometimes just straight up physical and sexual abuse) doesn’t work, is because you can’t. You can’t make someone gay and you can’t make someone straight by being gay or straight around them. There’s no harm in allowing children to know that their teacher has a husband or a wife. There’s nothing wrong with the Disney Princess kissing the the prince during class movie days. There’s nothing wrong with the protagonist kissing their crush in their novel. There’s nothing wrong with the fictional character kissing someone of the same gender in their assigned reading. There was never a moment in my childhood that I decided that I’d be straight or Gay. I’d never entertain the possibility because that’s just who I was. No one is pushing sexuality in peoples faces. You don’t have to consume media, you just feel you have to because you’re addicted. The privacy you speak of that was around back a couple of decades ago was only enforced upon LGBT+ people because they’d be harassed, attacked, abandoned, and blackmailed for it.
The interesting thing about this episode is that I don't think it could have worked at any time other than the 90s. That was the decade when attitudes started to reach a tipping point, where a lot of people were still not completely accepting of homosexuality but overt homophobia was itself becoming socially unacceptable. Thus Jerry and George are trapped on the horns of a dilemma, afraid of the reputational damage that would come from gay rumours but also realising that being branded homophobic would be just as bad. For me the need for them to navigate their way out of this situation without upsetting anyone is where all the comedy comes from, I don't think this episode would have worked at all without that angle.
@@ShortArmOfGod Yes, the nefarious gay agenda all along was to be able to dress in women's clothing while reading to 5-year-olds. The horror! So, I suppose it's the time to round the gays up and apply the final solution, no?
A lot of these sitcoms from the 90s helped to change the rather barbaric treatment of gay people and that accusation of being gay was really a curse. My music teacher in grade school was said to be gay by some parents and they got him fired. Makes me so angry to this day, he was a great teacher and very nice.
@@lilben4184 But seriously, I looked at your profile. You are not immune from human characteristics and it shows. If you knew any gay people and their struggles, you would completely change your opinions. Contact hypothesis all over again. You can only write that because you think of these topics as abstracts, not as real things affecting real humans. We both know that you don't really think like that. It's just an internet thing but even writing this online is immoral and weird.
I was a closeted teenager when this episode came out. Out of the many ways I partition my life into "before X" and "after X", this episode marks the end of thinking my mom would disown me if I ever came out. When I finally did come out years later, my mom threw out another iconic Seinfeldism from "The Cheever Letters"... "I KNEW it!!"
"Not that there's anything wrong with that" did have a positive impact on me. Surrounded by people who very much did think there was something wrong with that, I appreciated the idea that the default, bare minimum attitude was that there wasn't anything wrong with that.
My Dad and his friends would act like it was fine, as long as a) it wasn't one of THEIR kids, and b) it wasn't anyone they were socialising with (cause that would, like, put them at obvious "threat" of being hit on - right? 😕) And I'd look at these not-particularly-attractive middle-aged dudes and think "I think you're probably not at risk of being suddenly magically desirable to any random gay man you encounter, but m'kay." Not that there's anything wrong with being not-particularly-attractive AND/OR middle-aged 😀
There's always a bit of discomfort that goes with being labeled as something you're not. Whenever I saw someone point at this episode and thought it was actually homophobic I tried to come up with comparisons that were more mundane like someone thinking you had a foot fetish just because you complimented someone's shoes. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Yeah. I'm bi and if somebody started telling everyone that I'm gay I'd be a little miffed by it and would start telling people I'm not gay. Because I'm not, and I'd feel like an imposter appropriating an identity that isn't mine if people thought I was. So I can understand why a non-homophobic straight person would want to correct someone about their own sexual identity and also why they would feel the need to try and awkwardly clarify that they're upset about being mislabeled and not about being thought of as gay. Especially in the 90s where the automatic assumption of almost anyone would be "gay = bad" instead of "mislabeling people = bad"
Also it would just be super awkward to explain you just went with the assumption that you were gay all along later down the road. Isn't it better to nip that in the butt asap?
@@dariusanderton3760 Because that mislabel was for something you'd done, it was to say "You clearly have enough charm and sexual ability to get in bed with this person we both admire". Sleeping with that person was a compliment of your abilities. (idk if it would really I have been a hard thing to do or not, I don't know anyone involved, but point remains). You don't have to "achieve" anything to be gay. Coming out of the closet takes courage, yes, but just being gay? Being gay says NOTHING about a person except that they like the same gender, same as being straight, or bi, or anything. Mistaking you as having slept with that person was to say they believed you had the abilities to make such possible. Mistaking you as being gay is just to say "oh, I think you were born that specific way."
@@SamAronow didn't ruin his career though, I mean Laura dern was essentially blacklisted for a while because she agreed to be on the Ellen show as a lesbian who Ellen came out to IN THE SHOW. Maybe it's because I was young at the time but the way each situation was handled by the media felt very differently.
@@SamAronow yeah! I feel like the publications in recent history have been much more critical of him though. At the time I Want to say, people or one of those entertainment magazines that were huge at the time was essentially like "isn't it weird? but look! they're in love and they're making it work for them."
Another one that really stuck out to me, even as a kid, was the discovery that Susan's father had an affair with John Cheever, which is never referenced again simply because they couldn't figure out a way to keep it being funny and not just playing everyone's discomfort as if that was the whole joke. And his line is actually quite moving: "He was the most wonderful man I've ever known, and I loved him deeply, in a way you could never understand."
Reporter: And what about your parents, do they know? George: My parents? They don't know *what's* goin on! You have no idea how much I love this line and the delivery of it. Neither do George's parents
“Within the confines of his fastidious bachelor pad Seinfeld and Costanza bicker over the cleanliness of a piece of fruit like an old married couple.” - possibly my favorite line in the entire series.
How is it that lines from all nine years are lodged in my brain cells? I didn’t plan it or try to memorize lines. My fave character is Elaine bc I relate to having lots of boyfriends & to jobs requiring reading & writing. I love her spirit, intelligence & resiliency.
Excellent video, although I think you might have been a bit too harsh on the WKRP episode. Although Les' friends and co-works are very uncomfortable, they all make it clear that they will support him and stand by him even if he is gay. Even Herb, the biggest homophobe in the office, stands by him. I remember seeing this as a kid when it aired and thinking it was way ahead of anything else on the air. The show made clear the persecution that gays faced (through Les' distress and appreciation that even the rumor could ruin his life) and how unreasonable this was. At the same time the episode promoted the idea that heterosexuals should be supportive of gay friends that came out or were outed.
Yeah, he mentioned it was 15 years earlier, which doesn't sound like a huge jump but things changed really fast. Remember, segregation only ended in the 60s, then the 80s had a huge uprising with AIDS and everyone was blaming gay men or even refusing to treat them. Then people were becoming a little more self aware, being homophobic wasn't tasteful anymore, but the stigma was so fucking unreal. It was a weird time. Being called gay was very weaponized back then, and even straight allies and supporters were immediately shamed and called gay just because they were supportive. Hell, even if you were neutral about it, you'd probably get some gay slander. I think Jerry did a great job portraying the panic and defensiveness EVERYONE pretty much felt at the time, while also not subscribing to the mockery of homosexuals.
@@dariusanderton3760 Agreed. I saw it when it aired. I was too young the first time around to really get the subtleties, but I knew it wasn't what I was used to. As a very young heterosexual male it made me think.
"friends" was a bad ripoff of "living single", but the people are terrible and unrelatable (unlike "living single" where the entire cast has a rich inner - life and strong moral principles)
I'm a little past the halfway point and wanted to say I can recall only one denial before this _Seinfeld_ episode where it wasn't saying there was anything wrong with being gay. Tom Selleck was on _The Tonight Show_ and said what bothered him about people insinuating he was gay was that he was married and that would imply that he was somehow being unfaithful to or dishonest with his wife.
Of course, there's also the episode where Elaine tries to convert a gay guy who's using her as a beard. Surprisingly, the locker room analogy with the line "We're comfortable with our own equipment" didn't really take off.
I really like how Jerry keeps trying to explain to her that it won't work and Elaine just doesn't get it. Well, she does get it but she goes ahead with her plan.
This episode really struck a chord with me at the time. My father had just come out and when George says "My father's gay", it was like getting punched in the gut. My father really was gay and it wasn't a joke! It had ripped my family apart and caused so much chaos and instability in my young life, and it was a punchline to them. Now, looking back, I can appreciate the humor and I think it is a legitimately funny episode. It took several more years for me to come to my truth as a queer person, and I can laugh right along with no qualms. Not that there's anything wrong with that :)
Yea it's hard to understand satire as a kid, comedy is very complex and just because a joke is ABOUT a sensitive subject doesn't mean it's coming from the same place as the status quo
It’s great as a catchphrase as well because people repeating that due to their love for the show likely helped change some minds like “oh right. There actually isn’t anything wrong with that.”
Being a huge fan of Seinfeld I've watched all the clips and read articles about how Seinfeld made this episode and its impact on American culture, but you went into it even deeper and presented it amazingly well. Great job!
I remember when this episode came out. It was a game-changer for tolerance at the time (not the sole game-changer, but a big one), not only in media but in much of American society in general. I can only speak from the perspective of a straight man, but it seems like it was suddenly OK to be OK with gay people, which most of us already were but didn't really dare to vocalize it in mixed company. Homophobia immediately seemed pointless, old-fashioned, and unnecessarily cruel, much to the chagrin of a rather conservative early 90's America. It's a shame that we've had such a rise in hate in the last decade, as it truly feels like we're moving backwards, but a return to the embarrassing days where being gay was something that you hid from everyone for fear of your life being destroyed seems unlikely now.
@@ms-jl6dl Is that what they tell you at your weekly Klan rally? Sorry but the numbers don't lie. You probably don't notice when you're part of the mob doing the hate.
If I recall correctly there was also the closing scene where a young soldier who overhears Jerry comes over to him and declares that he's is going to come out to his commanding officer and takes off as Jerry halfheartedly tries to reach out to him.
As a longtime Seinfeldophile, kudos to you on a very accurate, well written, narrated and edited video. Seinfeld slyly managed to address, and usually skewer, many of the most divisive social issues of today, which makes them even more fun to watch now. Nice work Matt!
I'll never forget the episode where Elaine breaks up with her bf for his views on abortion. I had never heard the word spoken on tv before, especially during a sitcom. I recently rewatched the episode and finally noticed the whole pizza debate and when does it becomes a pizza? before or after it goes in the oven" was also a wink at the abortion storyline.
This was the first episode of Seinfeld I ever saw, when it first came out (up until that season and its move to a different timeslot, it was more of a 'niche' show. As a newly out gay man I really appreciated how they handled it. It really was a shift from how previous shows addressed the issue.
Well researched and edited as always. As a big Seinfeld fan, I knew the behind the scenes of this story, but tying it into similar situations in Hollywood was a great take on it.
This video has completely recontextualised Seinfeld for me. Thanks Matt and thank the algorithm for the recommendation... and Matt Colville, because I probably wouldn't have clicked on the video if he hadn't mentioned you so often.
I'm gay and I personally see nothing wrong with episode. I always thought that the biggest thing that Jerry and George were worried about is 1. being called something they're not and 2. being out of women's dating pool. Like, if everyone thinks Jerry Seinfeld and George Constanza are gay...then what women in their right mind would even bother trying to go out with them? Jerry didn't have much of a problem when he said "people always think I'm gay", opposed to people now "knowing" he's gay after reading the article. Moreover, George has always felt uncomfortable with his sexuality (as seen in "the massage"). I've actually always thought George was coded to be gay because of how uncomfortable he is. Even when Susan "becomes" a lesbian, George (even though he finds her lesbianism attractive) adapts to it very quickly. When Kramer has Mona fall for him, George asks "he stole your girlfriend?" with no other remark and later tells her there's other girls for her-as he would for any straight guy friend of him. Also! as you've shown, Estelle doesn't really care about homosexuality, she mostly cares that George (as she thinks) is hiding a huge part of his life from her. Futhermore, it's not exactly the easiest being gay (and compare now to the 90's), so it wouldn't be fun to be called gay when you're not. The "not that there's anything wrong with that" also incapsulates perfectly people's "progressiveness" towards homosexuality as long as it doesn't affect them, their children, or anyone in the lives. I have a lot of people in my life who are for the most part acceptting of me, but still clearly see me as some type of other (which is also present in Seinfeld in other episodes). This is actually one of my favorite episodes! I LOVE this episode and personally have never had any issue with it.
What woman in her right mind would have gone out with George anyway? His character and mannerisms would be utterly repellent to almost anybody in real life.
@@NondescriptMammal Well, on the show he did have the occasional date or love interest. He was even engaged for a while, until fate intervened and she died young.
@@wylierichardson-tu6zs If I remember correctly, he dated several attractive women during the series. Because, you know, apparently they couldn't find any better prospects than George in the most populous city in the country.
The fact that Jerry and George's conservative parents, still hide behind "not that there's anything wrong with that" and freak out anyway, I think actually captures what a lot of queer folks go through coming out. People always find a way to be mad about it, and somehow still deny being homophobic.
@@Paul_pp Yes, it does. Whether two men love each other has nothing to do with you and they will continue to love each other regardless of whether you "believe" in it or not. Contrary to the homophobes (like yourself) who call them 'fairies', you don't need to believe for them to continue existing and minding their own business. They just wish you'd mind your own. --- Signed, a Gay Man
Watching it at the time, I thought it was good because the joke was everyone's fear and concern, despite saying it was OK. It confronted the prevalent culture of "I'm not [insert bias here], but ...." that especially applied to the LGBTQ+ community. It also solidified the running theme that rather than sensible people in an absurd world, these were absurdly insecure, narcissistic people uncomfortable with both the world and themselves.
Seinfeld is good with that. Similar to the mentally-challenged episode where people think Kramer is challenged. The comedy isn't about Kramer or the mentally challenged. It is about the people who patronize the disabled instead of treating them as real people with real feelings who deserve respect.
@@nehemiahmarcus308 It really isn't about that either. It is billed "the show about nothing" for a reason. There are no lessons. No commentary on real life. Rather, it is an artist's rendition of real life with a comedic bent. We laugh because these situations are plausibly relatable. Larry David especially knows how to turn social discomfort and anxiety into uncontrollable laughter
@@trequor this is such a weird take. “Show about nothing” was a tagline. A buzzword. It was a show about bad people being bad. There was a lesson, it was “don’t act like these chumps, you should laugh at them instead.” It’s got all the same lessons as Always Sunny.
I had no idea it struggled as a show for so long. Definitely my favourite show of all time. Just finished watching all 9 seasons for probably the 5th time. Never gets old. Another interesting Seinfeld fact is that the lady who plays Jerry's mum was James Dean's greatest love in real life.
The show, along with Cheers, would never have stayed on if they were new now. Networks don't give shows time to find an audience. I bet we've lost out on some great shows.
It's partly why I hate how streaming services handle things these days. Cancel it after a season, lucky if you get 3. They don't give shows any time to grow into what they could be, if it's not a "hit" right away, it's gone.
“Not that there’s anything wrong with that,” was a great tool with me and my friends, all straight, white, rural men, to be able to stand up to homophobia. It was that “transition” time… It allowed us to show acceptance. It was common to call each other slurs, but it’s not like we’d have been yelling it to men at a bar or something. It became a way to call out someone who made a homophobic comment… That’s now a phrase I’m afraid to say… It sounds dismissive, so I can understand why someone might be offended… It was a crutch. Don’t need it much any more, but boy did it help… 😉
Yup! It’s definitely an appropriate phrase for the context of its times, and says a lot about how far we’ve come. Nowadays it does come off more defensive rather than progressive, because in mainstream culture LGBTQ people are more visible and accepted. But back then even acknowledging queer people, let alone asserting that there isn’t anything wrong with that, was a very big deal.
@@blackpilledchad1927 I'm sure there are... those were the characteristics of the demographic I was talking about... Where I live, there are few minorities, so I can't speak to that...
My parents really enjoyed Seinfeld, so I watched it a lot with them growing up. I didn't realize at the time that Jerry was dealing with actual rumors of being gay, but I've always loved this episode and the whole "not that there's anything wrong with that" bit. Certainly not all of Seinfeld has aged well, but I think this episode holds up!
Though I was never a fan of Seinfeld, I must have youtubed clips of this episode countless times to address my own internalized homophobia when I was younger. The way you characterize it helps me make better sense of myself. Appreciate your work, Matt Baume. Being raised by older parents, I grew up with a lot of the programming you address in your pieces.
As a bisexual cisgender white male, I've learned not to share my info about my sexuality with randos, including folks within our own LGBTQ community. There's a stigma against bisexuals within the community, so I don't get caught up in identity politics & don't get involved with such things
Hey Matt. I really need to thank you, as a gay man, as a writer, and as a historian. Although I absolutely love your commentary on the details of the performing arts and the entertainment industry in general, I am most impressed by the seemless and often funny and always astute way that you weave in the historic context of your work. A people cannot move forward without understanding what came before, cannot climb a ladder and reach for the next rung without standing upon the rung that was once above but is now below. Your manner of presenting your entertaining content in that context does more for the advancement of LGBTQ+ civil rights and social integration than you can know. Thank you. You are among the best of the many commentators out there, and your intellectual multi-tasking is always impressive. Sashay, shante!
solid video, but I do have to say something - as a Seinfeld nerd who’s watched all those behind the scenes things, however mundane they may be, it feels really weird to use clips that aren’t about the episode in question completely out of context. Specifically the Jason Alexander quote about the “network being up in arms” is actually about the Chinese restaurant, and the Larry David quote “what have I gotten myself into” is about Larry’s anxiety about writing that many new episodes when the show got picked up. While these didn’t really change much, it can call into question everything else in the vid.
You have been manipulated. However, I would note that this is pretty common practice in documentaries (and extremely common in those reality TV shows). A _lame_ practice, but I believe there is just sometimes really not enough footage for what the flow of the editing demands.
The sad thing is there are many people today who see this episode as being homophobic and they completely misjudge the significance and impact it had on society
@@groofromtheup5719 Thing that sucks about sarcasm with text is it's sometimes impossible to tell if something is or not online since the vocalization of it plays part of the role in knowing. Also the fact that people say crazy weird shit without being sarcastic it's sometimes impossible to tell nowadays lol
People need to understand these types of episodes were created during massively different eras. You can't take a current day approach to these types of episodes without hindsight of the climate and issues regarding the subject at the time.
There's a fabulous film "Behind The Candelabra" that chronicles this very well. And yes, he even went to the extreme of trying literally take it to his grave by having his personal physician lie about the COD on the death certificate - it was after his body was collected that an official realized it didn't add up. It was 24-48 hours (?) after the first announcement that the news broke publicly that he had really died of AIDS. Then everything blew open. (He had a history of not treating his lovers/partners very well so there was a good amount of men that had nothing to lose by airing the dirty laundry.)
You would be shocked at the level of denial. I went to catholic school for all 12 years where we had lots of " flamboyant " priests and brothers and very butch looking and acting nuns and yet no one could seem to put 2 and 2 together. Sadly the level of bigotry is still there as in just the last 5 years my catholic high school has fired both a male vice principal and female english teacher when they were found out to be gay. Fuck them ! I still get newsletters and asks for money for the school and of course they would gladly take my money but fire me right away if I did not lie about who I was
@@shannon4386 You know, looking back... my family was wildly progressive for the time. I lived in a rural area with 3 generations in the same house. Basically... the Waltons but time progress it to the 70's and 80's. And basically the concept of skin color, sexual preference and pretty much anything was okay to discuss. Except for Republicans. My Grandfather was a county leader for Dems and so I could be a trans-woman that changed skin color and it was okay - as long as I didn't become a rep.
I'd love to see a video on Robin Williams, his gay roles and offscreen advocacy, and what gay actors like Harvey Fierstein and Nathan Lane thought of working with him.
I’ve seen about three episodes of Seinfeld ever and never knew “not that there’s anything wrong with that” had a pop culture source. I thought it was just a common phrase that developed along with shifting cultural norms. Which clearly it was because Larry Charles used the phrase himself, but Seinfeld then catapulted into being a pre-meme, it seems.
@@richarddoan9172 Hey, fair point. It’s hard for me to discern what was common parlance in the mid-90’s when I was but a teen in the Midwest, even more so re: what was common language for show biz types during that time. Especially since plenty of people back then clearly thought there WAS something wrong it. I mean, there are still those folks around today but it appears their numbers have decreased.
@@TrueYellowDart I was in my 20s at the time, and don't recall that it had any particular significance. I would say the phrase was an ordinary, unremarkable use of language that carried no weight beyond its literal meaning. It's also generic, and we can imagine a lot of contexts in which people would use it, so it's common in that sense, like "take the next left", "it's in the cupboard", or "I'll be home after the show." The phrase is probably like "Did I do that?" before Family Matters. People surely said it because it's fairly generic, but it would have been completely unremarkable.
This is the sort of video that makes me love your channel. I'd always read this episode as itself homophobic--partly because Jerry Seinfeld himself isn't exactly a bastion of progressive thought in hindsight and some of the other episodes were pretty bad about it, but also because over time we grew past the era where this sort of problem existed, so it lost that context and just became 'Jerry Seinfeld is weirdly insistent about not being gay in an entire episode where the notion of him being gay is a punchline'. Learning the context that makes these stories so huge does so much to better understand them.
yeah, it's interesting. george and jerry are homophobic, and they are also very much the surrogates of the audience, and so the episode can't help but reproduce their homophobia even as it attempts to critique it. the writers, for better or worse, found the exact modicum of incremental progress that US pop culture desired at that moment.
the joke isn't that he's uncomfortable being gay, the joke is that he's uncomfortable that somebody might think he's homophobic just for trying to defend his sexuality.
It's easy to make assumptions about peoples and cultures that you don't understand... back in Seinfeld's day we called this "bigotry" instead of "progressive"
I think this episode of Seinfeld was so great because it encapsulated perfectly where the country was on homosexuality in the early 1990's. We had largely moved past the outright hatred and fear, and reached a point where it was "ok" to have a gay friend or coworker. Yet most people were still uncomfortable with homosexuality and would rather just not talk about it, sort of the societal "don't ask, don't tell" phase, where now it was ok to be gay, just don't be too over the top about it.
I’m old enough to remember every one of the appearances on Carson as well as all episodes. I loved the pilot show and was bummed I had to wait a year to watch again.
This video is so wonderfully fantastic. It’s got to be one of the best video essays I’ve seen in a very long time. The pacing and history see the episode was darn near perfect. I’m a Seinfeld nut and even I learned some new stuff. However, my one criticism is that you missed the best line in the entire episode. When Jerry and George are on the phone, Jerry says, “people’s personal sexual preferences are nobody’s business but their own!”
I dated a couple of older guys when I lived in Florida years ago. Those two guys were snowbirds and spent the summers at their 400 sq. ft. co-op in Manhattan's Upper West Side. The younger of the two (in his 80s) recalled one time in NY when he and his partner were going to meet some friends at a straight/mixed bar in Manhattan. They got there early but had had a big argument on the way. While he was standing at the bar waiting to order drinks, a guy next to him made smalltalk, "How's it going?" My friend shouted back, "WHAT DO YOU WANT?" He looked over, and it was Jerry Seinfeld.
This story is so fabulous I can't help but want it to be true. Did either of them say what happened next? Their reaction when they recognized who it was, or Jerry's response? I can understand if they didn't, the "I yelled at a guy and it turned out to be Jerry Seinfeld" story is pretty hilarious and mortifying on it's own. (Though *I* still want those closing details.)
This was interesting. I'm a big Seinfeld fan, and a big fan of all things gay, and for some reason I didn't know the history of this episode. I watched the episode recently and thought that it hadn’t aged well, not because it was politically incorrect or anything, but because attitudes have changed so much, I was having a hard time relating to the "not that there's anything wrong with that" joke. Matt Baume's show helped me recontextualize it again. I'm glad attitudes have changed though, even if it’s just a little.
Kramer trying to put concrete in the washing machine made the entire series. That bit of slapstick created a draw for the show until it could find it's sea legs.
This episode changed things so much. I was a kid, and even though I’m not gay, it showed me that there’s nothing wrong with being gay. I hadn’t thought there was, I was too young before then, but I knew from that point on. Media matters.
The Outing is one of the most forward thinking episodes of any tv show from the 90’s I feel. The fact they wrote about such a taboo subject in the 90’s without really making fun of gay people and more turning it on Jerry and George’s insecurities was really well done, and for the most part the episode still holds up.
It was so hard to get anything past the networks that involved gay people in the 90s. The episode of The Simpsons called Homer's Phobia was almost never aired just because it featured John Waters playing a gay character. What the network did was give any episode that focused on gay themes a 14+ rating despite the episodes not having anything to justify that rating. The only reason Fox let it air is because the creators and writers had so much power due to the show being so popular
@@cjdayne3033Well yeah. Gay people exist in a large enough number that a cast of characters would most likely have a gay person in it. I don't know many people who don't have a gay person in their circle whether I be there circle of close friends or distant ones. Makes sense that tv and movies represent that. Not that the shows have to have a gay person, it just makes sense logically don't you think?
@@cjdayne3033 Which is a good thing especially since these things are proven to help normalize it and we are still many many decades away from the tolerance that some media outlets and parts of society suggest is already there.
I've never even seen the show, I was way too young and never went back, but I STILL respond instantly "not that there's anything wrong with that" every time.
That episode of WKRP you mention always brought up a question for me, mainly, "Why would the guy who reads the farm report for a low-rated rock station even have locker room access in the first place?"
it's cool that even in that first clip of Jerry from "Benson" his signature delivery is 100% there, i don't know if that scene was funny to anyone who saw that scene when it aired but i think it is now.
interesting. i grew up watching seinfield and i never knew that phrase originated there. You should have put it a clip of the office when roy anderson looks to camera and reluctantly says "not there's anything wrong with that" I've watched the office 1000 times in the last 15 years and never got that joke until just now. ; D
Yes 👏🏻 I 👏🏻 am 👏🏻 fucking 👏🏻 here 👏🏻 for 👏🏻 every 👏🏻 video👏🏻 keep 👏🏻 em 👏🏻 comin 👏🏻 Also are you ever gonna talk about the great gatsby and how they left the scene out of Nick being drunk with a dude who is half naked, in said dudes room? I haven't seen many people discuss it who aren't very small channels with very low quality
Sometimes progress is measured in small steps, but the difference between the WKRP reaction and the direction Seinfeld took was significant for its time. Tacit homophobia was still a big thing in the 90's, those of us who lived and/or grew up in that time know that well. We had a willingness to accept but hadn't yet fully turned the corner.
It's funny how George says "our audience for this show is "me" and I don't watch TV" which was exactly who I was. I just happened to catch an episode because I was home one night and I was hooked. Seinfeld (and later Cheers when they were back to back) were the only 2 shows I watched. I still watch Seinfeld daily after 30 years.
My dad said "Not that there's anything wrong with that", when speculating that John Lennon looked Jewish, back in the 60's! Damn, he should have Patented the phrase!
It would be a Copyright.
I love how Kramer was upset because he felt like Jerry was disrespecting their friendship by not telling him something so deep and personal and not because he was homophobic.
Kramer had a whole other issue related to prejudice....
@@dacedebeer2697 Well, the actor did.
Kramer (in the show) is suprisingly woke. There's the AIDs walk, it's insinuated he's pro-choice and he's anti-circumcision
@@aliamcbride Absolutely based. It's still so weird to me in a world where what's "natural" is seen as more important than what's right, the idea of removing parts of your infants genitalia is somehow just a regular ol thing people do
@@HighTechPioneer well only in America and Canada. Barring Jews and Muslims most of the world does not practice infant circumcision
I think it’s interesting to contrast the attitudes depicted in this episode with an episode that came 3 years later, “The Wig Master”. In that one, there’s a scene where Jerry is having drinks with a gay guy, and another guy comes over to the table and asks the gay guy out. Jerry is offended, saying “Are you asking him out right in front of me? How do you know we’re not together?”
Jerry feels emasculated because someone doesn’t think he’s gay.
It would actually be called immasculate, wouldn't it? The opposite of emasculate... since he thinks he's too manly to be gay.
Kinda reminds me of the Golden Girls episode when Dorothy's lesbian friend develops a crush on Rose and Blanche gets offended because she's into Rose rather than her.
@@Dayvit78 I don't know, that sounds more like Jerry being jealous. What? He's not good enough to be asked out?
I'd forgotten about this episode, but I love that they did it like this because it's totally within Jerry's character to be offended by that, and it's also exactly how a lot of straight people react to their gay feelings not being into them. 😅
Earlier in the episode the same situation had happen with Elaine. Someone asked her out in front of Jerry and he took offense.
The brilliant thing about "not that there's anything wrong with that!" is that it refocuses their panic into being more about maintaining their reputation than anything else. What could be a very homophobic moment becomes just another example of the same hilariously inept self-serving cynicism that the characters approach every situation with, with them trying to find a way to dodge both accusations of homosexuality AND homophobia.
No, it's homophobic
@@dianaberlin4767 People can be foxes, but not homophobic.
According to the season 4 dvds, The line was a request by either NBC, or Larry David, Jerry Seinfeld, and Larry Charles as a way to not offend the gay community. The constant reassurance that there isnt anything wrong with being gay was still very radical in 1993
@@genghiscan2918 there hasn’t been anything wrong with it for decades.
Homophobes still think homo-sexuality is an accusation not an obsession with strangers’ sex-lives 😂🤦🏼♀️
In this section : “The more you know, the less you need to say” 🏳️🌈😌💅🏾
My favorite bit from this episode is after they say the line Jerry doubles down with a “some of my best friends are gay” claim when George in his desperation to add to this bursts out with, “My father’s gay!”
Not that there's anything wrong with that
I mean that whole manzier thing is quite sus
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
"Why a cape??"
Omg, I CRIED!!!!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I came out to my parents as a lesbian bc they’d always said there was nothing wrong with being gay throughout my whole life… nope turns out they’re just huge Seinfeld fans and had been quoting this episode 😂
Yeah ya gotta watch us gen xers.
Wasn't expecting it, not that there's anything wrong with that!
Girl, you are FINE as hell! Sheesh
rip lmao I hope it still went okay
@@dudewaldo4 could’ve gone worse, dad was super supportive thankfully!
"This is all well and good but I am still bald."
One of the great comedians of history.
That was one of the points at which I stopped the video to go and repeat the joke to my elderly mother 😁
Larry David is an absolute legend
Witty af I love that man. It's incredible he has looked the same for like 50 years.
@@rushi5638 same for Colin Mockery and Danny Devito. perhaps the easiest path to immortality is to go bald young.
Not that there’s anything wrong with that
I love the "not that there's anything wrong with that" line that is repeated by everyone because it is so refreshingly self aware and honest (and funny). It was written about the exact type of people who would watch the show, progresive and "gay friendly" people who nevertheless still couldnt help have a deep uncomfortableness with being considered gay, whether true or not. It was a great wink at that audience who in turn recognized themselves in that joke and realized how silly they were being with that slight hipocrisy.
If only progressive gay friendly people were Sienfelds audience it would have been a niche show that got canceled early. Seinfeld was watched by everyone, from both sides of the isle, as most shows at that time were.
@@hardrightturn7502 sure. I never said they were the only people who watched, I just meant they were the target audience, for the most mart
@@hardrightturn7502 maybe it should have been. it’s painfully unfunny
@@stormcloudsabound you replied to a reply to a comment on a youtube video about Seinfeld to say it's not funny
the thing is, not having a problem with gay people wasn't some fringe ideology (ie 'progressive gay friendly people')
and straight people not wanting to be mistaken for or called gay isn't homophobia. it's upsetting in general to be mislabeled.
Kinda wish Matt had added the clip from this episode where Jerry says "People's personal sexual preferences are nobody's business but their own" I feel like that was very bold for the time and really touched me upon rewatch
I thought I've seen every Seinfeld episode, but don't recall that line. Do you recall the plotline?
Even if you don't, I'm happy to hear that he said it! One of the reasons that Seinfeld became my favorite 90s sitcom was that as far as I recall, none of the main characters ever tried to put down gay people.
@@DashingPartyCrasher It's from the same episode. Remember when he's on the phone with George after the reporter says she's going to run the story? George shouts in a panic, "Now she thinks we're gay! Not that there's anything wrong with it!"
"No!" shouts Jerry, and then shouts the "nobody's business" line as if it's mandatory, not out of sincerity. That was part of the show's charm, their understanding of political correctness while having no actual feelings or principles.
now people are in the streets for month exhibiting their sexual preferences and pushing their "personal preferences" on kids in school. What happens with the line " ...sexual preferences are nobody's business but their own" , you know like private, and Not everybody's else business? Now it is too public and nonstop and everywhere. Where is the privacy of one own business?
@@balauruldeaur1271 No one is pushing anything on kids, that's just a conservative talking point which some homophobes have taken to parroting...they are just trying to teach kids that in fact: "Not that there's anything wrong with it" except some people still think there is
@@balauruldeaur1271 This implies that someone’s sexual preference can be changed, which in and of itself is a conservative talking point. The reason why conversion therapy doesn’t work, the reason why these attempts by religious nuts to “make sure their children turn out straight” (through scare tactics and sometimes just straight up physical and sexual abuse) doesn’t work, is because you can’t. You can’t make someone gay and you can’t make someone straight by being gay or straight around them. There’s no harm in allowing children to know that their teacher has a husband or a wife. There’s nothing wrong with the Disney Princess kissing the the prince during class movie days. There’s nothing wrong with the protagonist kissing their crush in their novel. There’s nothing wrong with the fictional character kissing someone of the same gender in their assigned reading. There was never a moment in my childhood that I decided that I’d be straight or Gay. I’d never entertain the possibility because that’s just who I was. No one is pushing sexuality in peoples faces. You don’t have to consume media, you just feel you have to because you’re addicted.
The privacy you speak of that was around back a couple of decades ago was only enforced upon LGBT+ people because they’d be harassed, attacked, abandoned, and blackmailed for it.
Jerry isnt gay, people just never saw him with his girlfriend because she was always busy attending high school or doing homework
💀
@@actualturtle2421 WEE WOO WEE WOO
@@thekawaiicupcake00 Oh no, a legal adult. Call the police immediately.
@@actualturtle2421 poo poo pee pee
@@actualturtle2421 Nahh bro dw abt whether ppl are mad or not,worry abt serving jail time
The interesting thing about this episode is that I don't think it could have worked at any time other than the 90s. That was the decade when attitudes started to reach a tipping point, where a lot of people were still not completely accepting of homosexuality but overt homophobia was itself becoming socially unacceptable. Thus Jerry and George are trapped on the horns of a dilemma, afraid of the reputational damage that would come from gay rumours but also realising that being branded homophobic would be just as bad. For me the need for them to navigate their way out of this situation without upsetting anyone is where all the comedy comes from, I don't think this episode would have worked at all without that angle.
Very true, and I just wanted to praise you for using the idiom "trapped on the horns of a dilemma" because I don't hear it nearly enough anymore.
And now we've got story time drag hour.
@@ShortArmOfGod Yes, the nefarious gay agenda all along was to be able to dress in women's clothing while reading to 5-year-olds. The horror! So, I suppose it's the time to round the gays up and apply the final solution, no?
A lot of these sitcoms from the 90s helped to change the rather barbaric treatment of gay people and that accusation of being gay was really a curse. My music teacher in grade school was said to be gay by some parents and they got him fired. Makes me
so angry to this day, he was a great teacher and very nice.
The original cancel culturists.
TIL that some parents are based.
at least he didnt trill your flute. He wasnt interested in sliding your trombone. He never got the chance to blow your horn.
@@lilben4184 Based means being a communist and vegan btw.
@@lilben4184 But seriously, I looked at your profile. You are not immune from human characteristics and it shows. If you knew any gay people and their struggles, you would completely change your opinions. Contact hypothesis all over again. You can only write that because you think of these topics as abstracts, not as real things affecting real humans. We both know that you don't really think like that. It's just an internet thing but even writing this online is immoral and weird.
I was a closeted teenager when this episode came out. Out of the many ways I partition my life into "before X" and "after X", this episode marks the end of thinking my mom would disown me if I ever came out. When I finally did come out years later, my mom threw out another iconic Seinfeldism from "The Cheever Letters"... "I KNEW it!!"
"Not that there's anything wrong with that" did have a positive impact on me. Surrounded by people who very much did think there was something wrong with that, I appreciated the idea that the default, bare minimum attitude was that there wasn't anything wrong with that.
Same.
For sure! I feel it also gave us positive neutral language. I could now say something in 7 words that I would have said a lot more awkwardly in 200.
My Dad and his friends would act like it was fine, as long as a) it wasn't one of THEIR kids, and b) it wasn't anyone they were socialising with (cause that would, like, put them at obvious "threat" of being hit on - right? 😕)
And I'd look at these not-particularly-attractive middle-aged dudes and think "I think you're probably not at risk of being suddenly magically desirable to any random gay man you encounter, but m'kay." Not that there's anything wrong with being not-particularly-attractive AND/OR middle-aged 😀
of course its wrong. Marissa Tomei!
I've always had respect for her, that she has a thing for short, balding, stocky men. @@neglectfulsausage7689
There's always a bit of discomfort that goes with being labeled as something you're not.
Whenever I saw someone point at this episode and thought it was actually homophobic I tried to come up with comparisons that were more mundane like someone thinking you had a foot fetish just because you complimented someone's shoes.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Exactly.
Yeah. I'm bi and if somebody started telling everyone that I'm gay I'd be a little miffed by it and would start telling people I'm not gay. Because I'm not, and I'd feel like an imposter appropriating an identity that isn't mine if people thought I was. So I can understand why a non-homophobic straight person would want to correct someone about their own sexual identity and also why they would feel the need to try and awkwardly clarify that they're upset about being mislabeled and not about being thought of as gay. Especially in the 90s where the automatic assumption of almost anyone would be "gay = bad" instead of "mislabeling people = bad"
Call them the wrong pronoun, watch the anger ensue.
Say they fk kids. No wait they probably do
Also it would just be super awkward to explain you just went with the assumption that you were gay all along later down the road. Isn't it better to nip that in the butt asap?
@@dariusanderton3760 Because that mislabel was for something you'd done, it was to say "You clearly have enough charm and sexual ability to get in bed with this person we both admire". Sleeping with that person was a compliment of your abilities. (idk if it would really I have been a hard thing to do or not, I don't know anyone involved, but point remains).
You don't have to "achieve" anything to be gay. Coming out of the closet takes courage, yes, but just being gay? Being gay says NOTHING about a person except that they like the same gender, same as being straight, or bi, or anything.
Mistaking you as having slept with that person was to say they believed you had the abilities to make such possible. Mistaking you as being gay is just to say "oh, I think you were born that specific way."
Ah the 90s, Jerry possibly being gay could ruin his carreer, but Jerry dating a 17 year old girl when he was 38 and no one batted an eye.
Oh goodness no, the tabloids of the time had a field day with that.
@@SamAronow didn't ruin his career though, I mean Laura dern was essentially blacklisted for a while because she agreed to be on the Ellen show as a lesbian who Ellen came out to IN THE SHOW. Maybe it's because I was young at the time but the way each situation was handled by the media felt very differently.
@@cynthiaignisdivine Yeah, the Seinfeld thing was more an instance of the media pointing and laughing, like something off _The Jerry Springer Show._
@@SamAronow yeah! I feel like the publications in recent history have been much more critical of him though. At the time I Want to say, people or one of those entertainment magazines that were huge at the time was essentially like "isn't it weird? but look! they're in love and they're making it work for them."
Yeah, tig ol’ bitties tend to make some forget about age differences.
Another one that really stuck out to me, even as a kid, was the discovery that Susan's father had an affair with John Cheever, which is never referenced again simply because they couldn't figure out a way to keep it being funny and not just playing everyone's discomfort as if that was the whole joke. And his line is actually quite moving: "He was the most wonderful man I've ever known, and I loved him deeply, in a way you could never understand."
It really was quite moving, and I've thought about that scene many times over the years.
I fear my orgasm has left me a cripple
It was referenced again when George and Susan initially broke up.
That season 4 was brilliant. The season long NBC plot, The bubble boy/Cheever letters episode, the gay episode, the contest
“Is he or isn’t he?”
“Ha likes to…dabble?”
“He dabbles!”
“He dabbles. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.”
Reporter: And what about your parents, do they know?
George: My parents? They don't know *what's* goin on!
You have no idea how much I love this line and the delivery of it. Neither do George's parents
"This [moves arm] is nothing. My whole life is a lie!"
Oh my this is so FABULOUS!
“Within the confines of his fastidious bachelor pad Seinfeld and Costanza bicker over the cleanliness of a piece of fruit like an old married couple.” - possibly my favorite line in the entire series.
"--I told you that pear was washed!!"
you hear the way he talks to me
And Jerry hears it, and wonders what kind of question is that?
How is it that lines from all nine years are lodged in my brain cells? I didn’t plan it or try to memorize lines. My fave character is Elaine bc I relate to having lots of boyfriends & to jobs requiring reading & writing. I love her spirit, intelligence & resiliency.
Excellent video, although I think you might have been a bit too harsh on the WKRP episode. Although Les' friends and co-works are very uncomfortable, they all make it clear that they will support him and stand by him even if he is gay. Even Herb, the biggest homophobe in the office, stands by him. I remember seeing this as a kid when it aired and thinking it was way ahead of anything else on the air. The show made clear the persecution that gays faced (through Les' distress and appreciation that even the rumor could ruin his life) and how unreasonable this was. At the same time the episode promoted the idea that heterosexuals should be supportive of gay friends that came out or were outed.
So glad you decided to post!! Love your thoughts 💓
In addition to this, Les himself was supposed to be a bit of a conservative nutjob
Yeah, he mentioned it was 15 years earlier, which doesn't sound like a huge jump but things changed really fast. Remember, segregation only ended in the 60s, then the 80s had a huge uprising with AIDS and everyone was blaming gay men or even refusing to treat them. Then people were becoming a little more self aware, being homophobic wasn't tasteful anymore, but the stigma was so fucking unreal. It was a weird time. Being called gay was very weaponized back then, and even straight allies and supporters were immediately shamed and called gay just because they were supportive. Hell, even if you were neutral about it, you'd probably get some gay slander. I think Jerry did a great job portraying the panic and defensiveness EVERYONE pretty much felt at the time, while also not subscribing to the mockery of homosexuals.
I always liked that show. Particularly the Thanksgiving episode.
@@dariusanderton3760 Agreed. I saw it when it aired. I was too young the first time around to really get the subtleties, but I knew it wasn't what I was used to. As a very young heterosexual male it made me think.
"The night that Seinfeld was going to premiered, we bombed Baghdad" is a sentence I never thought I would heard
Seinfeld is just pure gold. I like it's cynism much more than the naivity of Friends. It suits me better.
It's such a great show. The cynicism isn't for everyone though! My mother refused to watch it when it was on. "Too mean!"
@@MattBaume to be fair, they are not mean, they are just new yorkers.
@@MattBaume Great work btw (as always)
"friends" was a bad ripoff of "living single", but the people are terrible and unrelatable (unlike "living single" where the entire cast has a rich inner - life and strong moral principles)
(obligatory) gold, Jerry, GOLD!
I'm a little past the halfway point and wanted to say I can recall only one denial before this _Seinfeld_ episode where it wasn't saying there was anything wrong with being gay. Tom Selleck was on _The Tonight Show_ and said what bothered him about people insinuating he was gay was that he was married and that would imply that he was somehow being unfaithful to or dishonest with his wife.
Of course, there's also the episode where Elaine tries to convert a gay guy who's using her as a beard. Surprisingly, the locker room analogy with the line "We're comfortable with our own equipment" didn't really take off.
I really like how Jerry keeps trying to explain to her that it won't work and Elaine just doesn't get it. Well, she does get it but she goes ahead with her plan.
Elaine laid it on a little too thick trying to throw off any hint that her date is gay.
This episode really struck a chord with me at the time. My father had just come out and when George says "My father's gay", it was like getting punched in the gut. My father really was gay and it wasn't a joke! It had ripped my family apart and caused so much chaos and instability in my young life, and it was a punchline to them. Now, looking back, I can appreciate the humor and I think it is a legitimately funny episode. It took several more years for me to come to my truth as a queer person, and I can laugh right along with no qualms. Not that there's anything wrong with that :)
Lmfao sorry to laugh at your pain but LOL
If he could have sex with your mom, he wasn't gay. Just bi.
Yea it's hard to understand satire as a kid, comedy is very complex and just because a joke is ABOUT a sensitive subject doesn't mean it's coming from the same place as the status quo
@@grxygxds His dad takes it up the ass, That's gold, Jason. Gold!
@@isaiahromero9861 beautifully said!
i just... can’t hear jerry’s voice without thinking of animated bees.
It’s great as a catchphrase as well because people repeating that due to their love for the show likely helped change some minds like “oh right. There actually isn’t anything wrong with that.”
Brainwashing at its finest.
There is, though
@@RatatRatRBut why though?
@@RatatRatRwhy
@@RatatRatR There is something wrong with not supporting marginalized groups and thinking that there is something wrong with them, indeed.
Those two executives are fantastic. Show would never exist without them. Even The Beatles and Star Trek had a tough time getting singed.
"signed"
The interesting thing is that Elaine is much more vehement in her denial of being a lesbian on the subway. "I hate men, but I'm not a lesbian!"
Elaine Benes is all of us
That’s most women tho
@@genghiscan2918 Especially when we dance. 🤣
@@genghiscan2918 speak for yourself, men are awesome.
overt misandry is as socially acceptable as drinking coffee.
Being a huge fan of Seinfeld I've watched all the clips and read articles about how Seinfeld made this episode and its impact on American culture, but you went into it even deeper and presented it amazingly well. Great job!
I remember when this episode came out. It was a game-changer for tolerance at the time (not the sole game-changer, but a big one), not only in media but in much of American society in general. I can only speak from the perspective of a straight man, but it seems like it was suddenly OK to be OK with gay people, which most of us already were but didn't really dare to vocalize it in mixed company. Homophobia immediately seemed pointless, old-fashioned, and unnecessarily cruel, much to the chagrin of a rather conservative early 90's America. It's a shame that we've had such a rise in hate in the last decade, as it truly feels like we're moving backwards, but a return to the embarrassing days where being gay was something that you hid from everyone for fear of your life being destroyed seems unlikely now.
"A rise in hate"? Against straight white men - yes,obviously.
@@ms-jl6dl Is that what they tell you at your weekly Klan rally? Sorry but the numbers don't lie. You probably don't notice when you're part of the mob doing the hate.
I think you might be an NPC. Please tell me that in the past 20 years you've evolved into think for yourself instead of following what the TV says
@@trequor I am Error.
Have we had a rise in hate? Or a rise in coverage of hate? Genuine question, its quite hard to measure
If I recall correctly there was also the closing scene where a young soldier who overhears Jerry comes over to him and declares that he's is going to come out to his commanding officer and takes off as Jerry halfheartedly tries to reach out to him.
As a longtime Seinfeldophile, kudos to you on a very accurate, well written, narrated and edited video. Seinfeld slyly managed to address, and usually skewer, many of the most divisive social issues of today, which makes them even more fun to watch now. Nice work Matt!
I'll never forget the episode where Elaine breaks up with her bf for his views on abortion. I had never heard the word spoken on tv before, especially during a sitcom.
I recently rewatched the episode and finally noticed the whole pizza debate and when does it becomes a pizza? before or after it goes in the oven" was also a wink at the abortion storyline.
No filler and sensible amount of context. Best video essay I have seen in a long time.
We studied this episode in my sociology class for nearly exactly this reason.
This was the first episode of Seinfeld I ever saw, when it first came out (up until that season and its move to a different timeslot, it was more of a 'niche' show. As a newly out gay man I really appreciated how they handled it. It really was a shift from how previous shows addressed the issue.
Well researched and edited as always. As a big Seinfeld fan, I knew the behind the scenes of this story, but tying it into similar situations in Hollywood was a great take on it.
This video has completely recontextualised Seinfeld for me. Thanks Matt and thank the algorithm for the recommendation... and Matt Colville, because I probably wouldn't have clicked on the video if he hadn't mentioned you so often.
I'm gay and I personally see nothing wrong with episode. I always thought that the biggest thing that Jerry and George were worried about is 1. being called something they're not and 2. being out of women's dating pool. Like, if everyone thinks Jerry Seinfeld and George Constanza are gay...then what women in their right mind would even bother trying to go out with them? Jerry didn't have much of a problem when he said "people always think I'm gay", opposed to people now "knowing" he's gay after reading the article. Moreover, George has always felt uncomfortable with his sexuality (as seen in "the massage"). I've actually always thought George was coded to be gay because of how uncomfortable he is. Even when Susan "becomes" a lesbian, George (even though he finds her lesbianism attractive) adapts to it very quickly. When Kramer has Mona fall for him, George asks "he stole your girlfriend?" with no other remark and later tells her there's other girls for her-as he would for any straight guy friend of him. Also! as you've shown, Estelle doesn't really care about homosexuality, she mostly cares that George (as she thinks) is hiding a huge part of his life from her.
Futhermore, it's not exactly the easiest being gay (and compare now to the 90's), so it wouldn't be fun to be called gay when you're not. The "not that there's anything wrong with that" also incapsulates perfectly people's "progressiveness" towards homosexuality as long as it doesn't affect them, their children, or anyone in the lives. I have a lot of people in my life who are for the most part acceptting of me, but still clearly see me as some type of other (which is also present in Seinfeld in other episodes).
This is actually one of my favorite episodes! I LOVE this episode and personally have never had any issue with it.
What woman in her right mind would have gone out with George anyway? His character and mannerisms would be utterly repellent to almost anybody in real life.
You are saying that George Costanza, the man who could live his whole life as a lie, doesn't like to be called something he isn't? Not true at all.
@@kassiogomes8498 if it costs him sex with even one woman, the answer is obvious.
@@NondescriptMammal Well, on the show he did have the occasional date or love interest. He was even engaged for a while, until fate intervened and she died young.
@@wylierichardson-tu6zs If I remember correctly, he dated several attractive women during the series. Because, you know, apparently they couldn't find any better prospects than George in the most populous city in the country.
The fact that Jerry and George's conservative parents, still hide behind "not that there's anything wrong with that" and freak out anyway, I think actually captures what a lot of queer folks go through coming out. People always find a way to be mad about it, and somehow still deny being homophobic.
💅 too true fam. Too true.
Yep. Similar to people saying racist things and hiding it behind “Now I’m not a racist, but….”
just because you don't believe in 2 men being together sexually doesn't mean you are homophobic.
@@Paul_pp so true queen
@@Paul_pp Yes, it does. Whether two men love each other has nothing to do with you and they will continue to love each other regardless of whether you "believe" in it or not. Contrary to the homophobes (like yourself) who call them 'fairies', you don't need to believe for them to continue existing and minding their own business. They just wish you'd mind your own. --- Signed, a Gay Man
Watching it at the time, I thought it was good because the joke was everyone's fear and concern, despite saying it was OK. It confronted the prevalent culture of "I'm not [insert bias here], but ...." that especially applied to the LGBTQ+ community. It also solidified the running theme that rather than sensible people in an absurd world, these were absurdly insecure, narcissistic people uncomfortable with both the world and themselves.
Seinfeld is good with that. Similar to the mentally-challenged episode where people think Kramer is challenged. The comedy isn't about Kramer or the mentally challenged.
It is about the people who patronize the disabled instead of treating them as real people with real feelings who deserve respect.
@@nehemiahmarcus308 It really isn't about that either. It is billed "the show about nothing" for a reason. There are no lessons. No commentary on real life. Rather, it is an artist's rendition of real life with a comedic bent. We laugh because these situations are plausibly relatable. Larry David especially knows how to turn social discomfort and anxiety into uncontrollable laughter
@@trequor this is such a weird take. “Show about nothing” was a tagline. A buzzword. It was a show about bad people being bad. There was a lesson, it was “don’t act like these chumps, you should laugh at them instead.” It’s got all the same lessons as Always Sunny.
I had no idea it struggled as a show for so long. Definitely my favourite show of all time. Just finished watching all 9 seasons for probably the 5th time. Never gets old.
Another interesting Seinfeld fact is that the lady who plays Jerry's mum was James Dean's greatest love in real life.
The show, along with Cheers, would never have stayed on if they were new now. Networks don't give shows time to find an audience. I bet we've lost out on some great shows.
You might be basic
James Dean was bi, not that there’s anything wrong with it 🎉
It's partly why I hate how streaming services handle things these days. Cancel it after a season, lucky if you get 3. They don't give shows any time to grow into what they could be, if it's not a "hit" right away, it's gone.
“Not that there’s anything wrong with that,” was a great tool with me and my friends, all straight, white, rural men, to be able to stand up to homophobia. It was that “transition” time… It allowed us to show acceptance. It was common to call each other slurs, but it’s not like we’d have been yelling it to men at a bar or something. It became a way to call out someone who made a homophobic comment…
That’s now a phrase I’m afraid to say… It sounds dismissive, so I can understand why someone might be offended… It was a crutch. Don’t need it much any more, but boy did it help… 😉
Yup! It’s definitely an appropriate phrase for the context of its times, and says a lot about how far we’ve come. Nowadays it does come off more defensive rather than progressive, because in mainstream culture LGBTQ people are more visible and accepted. But back then even acknowledging queer people, let alone asserting that there isn’t anything wrong with that, was a very big deal.
@@blackpilledchad1927 I'm sure there are... those were the characteristics of the demographic I was talking about... Where I live, there are few minorities, so I can't speak to that...
@@blackpilledchad1927 they literally said “my friends, all straight rural white dudes”
As in, all of their friends were straight rural white dudes.
This was a great piece! The balance between presenter and snippets was really well done. Whoever edited this video together did a banger job
It's very smart, and actually reflects the style of Seinfeld itself.
My parents really enjoyed Seinfeld, so I watched it a lot with them growing up. I didn't realize at the time that Jerry was dealing with actual rumors of being gay, but I've always loved this episode and the whole "not that there's anything wrong with that" bit. Certainly not all of Seinfeld has aged well, but I think this episode holds up!
Love the fact that a rumour he was gay was an issue but nobody had a problem with him openly dating a minor.
(coughTennesseecough)
Yup, pretty gross.
It wouldn't be a problem today, either.
I mean, when was someone going to point this out.
@@christopherb501 I don't get it... (Were the age of consent laws different there?)
Though I was never a fan of Seinfeld, I must have youtubed clips of this episode countless times to address my own internalized homophobia when I was younger. The way you characterize it helps me make better sense of myself. Appreciate your work, Matt Baume. Being raised by older parents, I grew up with a lot of the programming you address in your pieces.
@@AdamAus85 The suffix -phobia can also mean an aversion towards or dislike of something.🌈
@@AdamAus85 This man thinks hydrophobic surfaces are afraid of water
@@PlankySmith I mean, it doesn't really. There's just a movement to use it that way.
As a bisexual cisgender white male, I've learned not to share my info about my sexuality with randos, including folks within our own LGBTQ community. There's a stigma against bisexuals within the community, so I don't get caught up in identity politics & don't get involved with such things
You had an irrational fear of homosexuality?
I'm nearly 40 and this is the first I have heard about Seinfeld being rumored to be homosexual.
I can't believe Seinfeld was such a struggling show...not that there's anything wrong with that.
George realizing his parents might have heard about it is one of the funniest things ever.
Hey Matt. I really need to thank you, as a gay man, as a writer, and as a historian. Although I absolutely love your commentary on the details of the performing arts and the entertainment industry in general, I am most impressed by the seemless and often funny and always astute way that you weave in the historic context of your work. A people cannot move forward without understanding what came before, cannot climb a ladder and reach for the next rung without standing upon the rung that was once above but is now below. Your manner of presenting your entertaining content in that context does more for the advancement of LGBTQ+ civil rights and social integration than you can know. Thank you. You are among the best of the many commentators out there, and your intellectual multi-tasking is always impressive. Sashay, shante!
I use that catch phrase almost every day. lol
solid video, but I do have to say something - as a Seinfeld nerd who’s watched all those behind the scenes things, however mundane they may be, it feels really weird to use clips that aren’t about the episode in question completely out of context. Specifically the Jason Alexander quote about the “network being up in arms” is actually about the Chinese restaurant, and the Larry David quote “what have I gotten myself into” is about Larry’s anxiety about writing that many new episodes when the show got picked up.
While these didn’t really change much, it can call into question everything else in the vid.
Thanks for pointing that. Now I just feel manipulated.
You have been manipulated. However,
I would note that this is pretty common practice in documentaries (and extremely common in those reality TV shows). A _lame_ practice, but I believe there is just sometimes really not enough footage for what the flow of the editing demands.
Just watched this episode for the first time a few months ago and it was hilarious. Crazy how it works even today
The sad thing is there are many people today who see this episode as being homophobic and they completely misjudge the significance and impact it had on society
that is because all things MUST be judged by modern values and sensibilities.
They do? “By today’s standards” it is fine. People are getting paranoid and protective, seeing threats to their favorites where none exist.
@@lookbovine sarcasm my dear. I am referencing the push to cancel all the greats of history based on them not conforming to today's moral standards.
@@groofromtheup5719 Thing that sucks about sarcasm with text is it's sometimes impossible to tell if something is or not online since the vocalization of it plays part of the role in knowing. Also the fact that people say crazy weird shit without being sarcastic it's sometimes impossible to tell nowadays lol
People need to understand these types of episodes were created during massively different eras. You can't take a current day approach to these types of episodes without hindsight of the climate and issues regarding the subject at the time.
So many of the most iconic franchises in the world had such a rocky start, it's really inspirational when you think about it
Wait - liberace tried to deny he was gay? I mean... come on. Even my grandmother knew he was. And in her favor, she literally did not care.
And people believed it 🤦♀️
There's a fabulous film "Behind The Candelabra" that chronicles this very well.
And yes, he even went to the extreme of trying literally take it to his grave by having his personal physician lie about the COD on the death certificate - it was after his body was collected that an official realized it didn't add up. It was 24-48 hours (?) after the first announcement that the news broke publicly that he had really died of AIDS.
Then everything blew open. (He had a history of not treating his lovers/partners very well so there was a good amount of men that had nothing to lose by airing the dirty laundry.)
You would be shocked at the level of denial. I went to catholic school for all 12 years where we had lots of " flamboyant " priests and brothers and very butch looking and acting nuns and yet no one could seem to put 2 and 2 together. Sadly the level of bigotry is still there as in just the last 5 years my catholic high school has fired both a male vice principal and female english teacher when they were found out to be gay. Fuck them ! I still get newsletters and asks for money for the school and of course they would gladly take my money but fire me right away if I did not lie about who I was
@@shannon4386 You know, looking back... my family was wildly progressive for the time. I lived in a rural area with 3 generations in the same house. Basically... the Waltons but time progress it to the 70's and 80's. And basically the concept of skin color, sexual preference and pretty much anything was okay to discuss.
Except for Republicans. My Grandfather was a county leader for Dems and so I could be a trans-woman that changed skin color and it was okay - as long as I didn't become a rep.
You would be amazed at the number of things that went right over White Middle America's head back in the day.
I'd love to see a video on Robin Williams, his gay roles and offscreen advocacy, and what gay actors like Harvey Fierstein and Nathan Lane thought of working with him.
I dont remember Seinfeld starting untill mid 90s... epic show. Suprised it stared in 1989
I’m straight but love the balanced and uplifting way in which you handle this subject matter. Best wishes.
This was such an iconic episode. I remember watching it air for the first time.
I’ve seen about three episodes of Seinfeld ever and never knew “not that there’s anything wrong with that” had a pop culture source. I thought it was just a common phrase that developed along with shifting cultural norms. Which clearly it was because Larry Charles used the phrase himself, but Seinfeld then catapulted into being a pre-meme, it seems.
Except “meme” as a word & concept was coined by Richard Dawkins in 1976. 😉
@@Susang Yeah but we know “meme” didn’t reach its true relevance until the late 90’s early aughts.
I don't think you can say a phrase was clearly common because one person used it. Not enough data.
@@richarddoan9172 Hey, fair point. It’s hard for me to discern what was common parlance in the mid-90’s when I was but a teen in the Midwest, even more so re: what was common language for show biz types during that time.
Especially since plenty of people back then clearly thought there WAS something wrong it. I mean, there are still those folks around today but it appears their numbers have decreased.
@@TrueYellowDart I was in my 20s at the time, and don't recall that it had any particular significance. I would say the phrase was an ordinary, unremarkable use of language that carried no weight beyond its literal meaning. It's also generic, and we can imagine a lot of contexts in which people would use it, so it's common in that sense, like "take the next left", "it's in the cupboard", or "I'll be home after the show." The phrase is probably like "Did I do that?" before Family Matters. People surely said it because it's fairly generic, but it would have been completely unremarkable.
This is the sort of video that makes me love your channel. I'd always read this episode as itself homophobic--partly because Jerry Seinfeld himself isn't exactly a bastion of progressive thought in hindsight and some of the other episodes were pretty bad about it, but also because over time we grew past the era where this sort of problem existed, so it lost that context and just became 'Jerry Seinfeld is weirdly insistent about not being gay in an entire episode where the notion of him being gay is a punchline'. Learning the context that makes these stories so huge does so much to better understand them.
"The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there." - L.P. Hartley
yeah, it's interesting. george and jerry are homophobic, and they are also very much the surrogates of the audience, and so the episode can't help but reproduce their homophobia even as it attempts to critique it. the writers, for better or worse, found the exact modicum of incremental progress that US pop culture desired at that moment.
the joke isn't that he's uncomfortable being gay, the joke is that he's uncomfortable that somebody might think he's homophobic just for trying to defend his sexuality.
It's easy to make assumptions about peoples and cultures that you don't understand... back in Seinfeld's day we called this "bigotry" instead of "progressive"
@@trequor “it’s bigoted to say good things about gay people”
The Outing and The Contest were taboo subjects handled expertly and now we look forward to them in reruns.
I think this episode of Seinfeld was so great because it encapsulated perfectly where the country was on homosexuality in the early 1990's. We had largely moved past the outright hatred and fear, and reached a point where it was "ok" to have a gay friend or coworker. Yet most people were still uncomfortable with homosexuality and would rather just not talk about it, sort of the societal "don't ask, don't tell" phase, where now it was ok to be gay, just don't be too over the top about it.
The 90’s version of “which could mean nothing!”
This is a really well done piece.
I’m old enough to remember every one of the appearances on Carson as well as all episodes.
I loved the pilot show and was bummed I had to wait a year to watch again.
It was a really nuanced episode. It was absolutely brilliant!
This video is so wonderfully fantastic. It’s got to be one of the best video essays I’ve seen in a very long time. The pacing and history see the episode was darn near perfect. I’m a Seinfeld nut and even I learned some new stuff. However, my one criticism is that you missed the best line in the entire episode. When Jerry and George are on the phone, Jerry says, “people’s personal sexual preferences are nobody’s business but their own!”
I really like your channel. Easy to watch and listen to. Very entertaining!
I dated a couple of older guys when I lived in Florida years ago. Those two guys were snowbirds and spent the summers at their 400 sq. ft. co-op in Manhattan's Upper West Side. The younger of the two (in his 80s) recalled one time in NY when he and his partner were going to meet some friends at a straight/mixed bar in Manhattan. They got there early but had had a big argument on the way. While he was standing at the bar waiting to order drinks, a guy next to him made smalltalk, "How's it going?" My friend shouted back, "WHAT DO YOU WANT?" He looked over, and it was Jerry Seinfeld.
This story is so fabulous I can't help but want it to be true. Did either of them say what happened next? Their reaction when they recognized who it was, or Jerry's response?
I can understand if they didn't, the "I yelled at a guy and it turned out to be Jerry Seinfeld" story is pretty hilarious and mortifying on it's own. (Though *I* still want those closing details.)
If there was ever a Seinfeld musical that line would make a PERFECT show stopper.
This was interesting. I'm a big Seinfeld fan, and a big fan of all things gay, and for some reason I didn't know the history of this episode. I watched the episode recently and thought that it hadn’t aged well, not because it was politically incorrect or anything, but because attitudes have changed so much, I was having a hard time relating to the "not that there's anything wrong with that" joke. Matt Baume's show helped me recontextualize it again. I'm glad attitudes have changed though, even if it’s just a little.
Kramer trying to put concrete in the washing machine made the entire series. That bit of slapstick created a draw for the show until it could find it's sea legs.
This episode changed things so much. I was a kid, and even though I’m not gay, it showed me that there’s nothing wrong with being gay. I hadn’t thought there was, I was too young before then, but I knew from that point on.
Media matters.
The Outing is one of the most forward thinking episodes of any tv show from the 90’s I feel.
The fact they wrote about such a taboo subject in the 90’s without really making fun of gay people and more turning it on Jerry and George’s insecurities was really well done, and for the most part the episode still holds up.
And now you can barely even have a tv show without a gay person in it.
It was so hard to get anything past the networks that involved gay people in the 90s. The episode of The Simpsons called Homer's Phobia was almost never aired just because it featured John Waters playing a gay character. What the network did was give any episode that focused on gay themes a 14+ rating despite the episodes not having anything to justify that rating. The only reason Fox let it air is because the creators and writers had so much power due to the show being so popular
@@cjdayne3033Well yeah. Gay people exist in a large enough number that a cast of characters would most likely have a gay person in it. I don't know many people who don't have a gay person in their circle whether I be there circle of close friends or distant ones. Makes sense that tv and movies represent that. Not that the shows have to have a gay person, it just makes sense logically don't you think?
@@cjdayne3033 Which is a good thing especially since these things are proven to help normalize it and we are still many many decades away from the tolerance that some media outlets and parts of society suggest is already there.
So happy to have found your channel . . . keep up the good work 🍿
Now I kind of want to make a short that says "I'm not straight! Not that there's anything wrong with that!"
A shirt!
@@gaywizard2000 Also I love your name.
@@searchingfororion thanks!
@@gaywizard2000 You are welcome, it's boss. (Weirdly it looks like the internet ate the comment I made before it. Oh well.)
I've never even seen the show, I was way too young and never went back, but I STILL respond instantly "not that there's anything wrong with that" every time.
That episode of WKRP you mention always brought up a question for me, mainly, "Why would the guy who reads the farm report for a low-rated rock station even have locker room access in the first place?"
Les was a news reporter for WKRP. He would cover sports too, usually mispronouncing famous athletes like Chai Chai Rod-ri-gweez.
@@deementia6796 I still remember that line and chuckle. wHAT A GREAT SHOW THAT WAS.
I am sure Herb fixed it for Les.
LOVE the WKRP example. didn't know anyone younger than my father had ever seen it
it's cool that even in that first clip of Jerry from "Benson" his signature delivery is 100% there, i don't know if that scene was funny to anyone who saw that scene when it aired but i think it is now.
All these shows were my childhood and teenage years.
I had no idea what was going on in the background.
Thank you for all these information!!!
I would be more worried about the panties story line 😮
interesting. i grew up watching seinfield and i never knew that phrase originated there. You should have put it a clip of the office when roy anderson looks to camera and reluctantly says "not there's anything wrong with that" I've watched the office 1000 times in the last 15 years and never got that joke until just now. ; D
Yes 👏🏻 I 👏🏻 am 👏🏻 fucking 👏🏻 here 👏🏻 for 👏🏻 every 👏🏻 video👏🏻 keep 👏🏻 em 👏🏻 comin 👏🏻
Also are you ever gonna talk about the great gatsby and how they left the scene out of Nick being drunk with a dude who is half naked, in said dudes room? I haven't seen many people discuss it who aren't very small channels with very low quality
Sometimes progress is measured in small steps, but the difference between the WKRP reaction and the direction Seinfeld took was significant for its time. Tacit homophobia was still a big thing in the 90's, those of us who lived and/or grew up in that time know that well. We had a willingness to accept but hadn't yet fully turned the corner.
George was always paranoid about people thinking he was gay (or actually being gay), and it was hilarious.
People denying that they are gay by setting the record straight is very on the nose so to speak
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
Matt, I’m looking forward to buying your book!
Thank you! I'm getting notes on the first draft in a few days, can't wait to get it in front of folks.
Holy shit, the real kramer looks like i would picture an actual kramer to look like.
thank you Matt, I appreciate your inquisitive mind and how you are so good at finding the underlying messaging
❤this. Ty 4 sharing....ty 4 the laughter
It's funny how George says "our audience for this show is "me" and I don't watch TV" which was exactly who I was. I just happened to catch an episode because I was home one night and I was hooked. Seinfeld (and later Cheers when they were back to back) were the only 2 shows I watched. I still watch Seinfeld daily after 30 years.
You are such a smooth presenter. You just beam friendliness. Really enjoying exploring your content.! ❤
Your research is phenomenal!👌
Wait..... someone thought liberacce was striaght? Oh my! WHO?
I liked "Fridays". That's where I first saw Journey perform. I was like 'who are these guys"?