I think vigilantes work the best in TMNT. I could see super heroes working if they got their powers from a relevant source in the TMNT universe; mutagen, tech, TCRI accident, or Dimension-X (Depends on the continuity). If it didn't relate to these elements it would feel random. As long as it was introduced early then expanded on I could buy it.
For me Super Heroes in TMNT is a mixed bag. On one hand I enjoy the idea of the boys mixing it up with other heroic figure, on the other hand sometimes it just causes confusion. Id say my biggest issue with it, is a similar one I have with Marvel. Them all existing in the same city, and somehow just not running into each other all the time. For me the super heroes existing in the world but away from New York mostly would be very alright. Like I really dug the concept and idea of Silver Sentry in 03, even his initial design was dope and it gave us Mikey making a little fanboy hero identity. But I feel like he shouldn't be in New York, maybe Toronto (Harkening to that Superman connection) or California. Just he should have been visiting to track down his enemy then we dont see him again apart from little one shot spots or in the news. As well it makes the heroes look weak if they can't handle invading Aliens but the Turtles can. Just if handled right they are cool to have, but handled poorly I got no interest. There you go, long response for you bud. Keep up the solid work! TLDR: Yeah heroes in Turtles is cool, but not all the time, and they shouldn't live in NYC.
In some cases in marvel it makes sense for example daredevil protects hells kitchen new York specifically rarely does he leave unless he's going after a enemy of his to another part of the city some heroes stay in certain areas to make sure at least one area is protected then you got the FF who are usually not on earth a lot or reed in his lab
More than old comics, I love the column with fan letters to old comics. Comic creators used to have steel balls to let fan's criticism on the page (not like today). God bless them and give a long life for it
@@Tatoruzu And when they're collected and reprinted, they never reprint these letters. I'm not referring to TMNT specifically here, but comics in general. Stan Sakai provides interesting background info about his Usagi Yojimbo stories in the letters column, and those are lost in the collected versions.
I think the 03 series handled superheroes well in the Silver Sentry/Turtle Titan episode. It was there to demonstrate that the turtles are not superheroes by having a real superhero appear alongside them.
In some respects, superheroes could fit the mirage universe. They could maybe tackle scenarios or situations that mutants or ninjas (or ninja turtles) can’t or won’t jump into. However, having large gluts of them would damper the uniqueness of the TMNT universe as a whole. The Justice Force is fine, but any more would convert the whole thing into just another superhero universe.
I think superheros can work just fine in the tmnt universe. You just got to do what the dc universe kinda does on a massive scale, you spread the superheros out and have the do things, most of the heavy hiters will be all over the place through time and space, street levels would be busy with other groups and everyone else is retired or doing something else while waiting for the call to need them
I like the idea of superheroes existing in the the same world as the TMNT, but I think they should be handled differently than just, "here's some off-brand Marvel/D.C. supers." For example, I liked some of the crossovers the turtles had when they were published by Image because a lot of those characters are also different and weird in their own ways. I'm ok with the Justice Force because, while they are very generic, they're also old so they can contrast with the new generation of supers that are out there. I guess the main issue I do have with having superheroes existing along with the TMNT and also being in NYC is it then make me wonder why Casey felt the need to put on a hockey mask and beat punks with his bat.
Super heroes are a cool idea like the mutant town. It can be like hellboy and invincible. Since the turtles are a parody they can make fun of bad hero movies and cinematic universes they could even do spin offs like the mutanimals in order to make fun of the multiverse
I always saw the world of TMNT as a “pretty much anything can happen” kind of world so superheroes felt pretty natural to me. It probably also helps that I’m a fan of that sort of thing to begin with.
In the cartoon adaptation of the justice force episode I noticed they left out a detail on zippy. Zippy a parody of the flash. He ran so fast that his legs gave out.
Yeah, IDW crosses over EVERYTHING they have the rights to. Edit: In the few I have read, there's usually some kind of dimensional rift or portal involved. I liked how the animated Batman & TMNT movie didn't have that and just had them live in the same universe.
Ay Dios! 😳Tuve que activar los subtitulos rápido cuando me pareció escuchar "el grupo retrasado de superheroes" 🤣🤣🤣 Hmm, he de decir que este rollo no le pega, quiero decir, no le va bien a TMNT. Salvo el Crossover con Batman (el de tmnt 2012 cómic me la suda, ni lo he leído). Desde el mismo momento en que aparece Nobody por primera vez, me he aburrido con cada una de esas historias en las que salen superheroes. Me dan bastante igual los "superheroes de capa", (a excepción de Batman por supuesto) y que estén ahí interactuando con las tortugas, robándoles el show siempre me ha fastidiado :/ Si hablamos de The Nightwatcher, ese sí está bien para mí, pero si hablamos de tortuga titan... Paso página. Estoy contigo que en en ése número molaban los pequeños detalles en los que puedes fijarte cuando están en la tienda de cómics, pero eso fué lo único que me gustó y me tuvo un rato observando detenidamente...luego fué horriblemente aburrido. Esas cartas a Peter Laird son una perla, en serio! Si no aclaras que no fuiste tú, bueno, jajaja sí que lo parece 😏😂😂😂 "Están muy bien juntos pero apestan separados!! " eso es oro molido! 🤣🤣🤣 Y que quitaran esa sección para que la gente no pudiese opinar sobre esa basura, oh mierda... Muy buen video Tatoruzu! , sigue con el buen trabajo👏🏻😊🍕🐢
The tmnt maybe not be the "Heroes in a half shell" like the 87 toon counterpart, Yet You forget their origin is embedded with super heroes such as "Daredevil the man without fear" (daredevil isn't always in that frank miller ninja action with the hand, heck even within frank millers run he lets darvedevil have a diverse variety of villains and opponent's to face he fought the Hulk, he fights the kingpin, silver saintcloud, Nuke, typhoid mary, bushwacker, psychopaths like Bullseye & Muse, wacky villains like mister fear, jester, indestructible man, gladiator the owl, the fantasic fours villain mole man, stilt man, matador, boomerang.*) tmnt has other super heroes introduced in the comics and media that made a fine edition to the franchise take "Silver Sentry" from the 2003 show, Radical aka Raven Shadowheart/ Hazel McIntyre, & Complete Carnage who are a Black american SuperMan, Native American SuperGirl or Native American Etrigan the demon equivalent in the Mirage and 2003 show Universe. they don't take away why humans would and could fear the tmnt because these characters are human unlike the turtle monsters and raven shadowheart shows up alot in the mirage /image universe and silver Sentry is a cool black superman like character that inspires Michaelangelo to be a costumed vigilante turtle titan, which in turn you'd get silver Sentry son turtle titan II in fast forward and in Big bang #10 you get a secret origin as to why they turtles wear uniformed eye mask rather than a blue ninja mask because they came across the superhero Galahad a Dick Grayson Robin knockoff sidekick to the Batman knock off knight watchman from Image comics tmnt vol3 who was connected to Hamato Yoshi and is sent to hunt down one of orroku sakis love intrest the head hunter and the turtles teamed up with the mystery men (you know the team they made an obscure 90s superhero movie with ben stiller wes studi kel Mitchell) from the Dark horse flaming carrot comics and the tmnt cross over with image savage dragon etc.
Honestly I think the complaint in the letter is just dumb and unnecessarily pissy, edgelording before edgelord was a thing. By issue 5 we’ve already introduced inter-dimensional travel, advanced alien races, a pencil that can create god-like beings in a hidden dimension, and a street vigilante who’s basically a dumb conan in a hockey mask-later down the line concepts like magic and time travel were introduced and no-one complained. But we are really drawing the line at dudes in capes. Superheroes existed in the in-universe fiction, so with all that was going on they would have been a noticeable oversight, eventually. What’s more, the superheroes are clearly a past thing-they’re retired, and have already passed somewhat into the realm of myth, which is why Mikey’s surprised they actually exist. So it’s not blowing the lid off anything really. They’re also weird enough to match the offbeat nature of the tmnt, and their narrative motif. I think what would actually have broken things is if stupidly powerful or overtly nationalistic heroes like Superman or Captain America existed. Then they would both make street level guys like the tmnt just useless, and would then *actually* take away from their need to hide. As it is, no heroes like that exist in the mirage comics, and there are so few of them that every hero more than has their hands full. So it’s not like their respective villains would cross-tread. What’s more, the turtles blood-feud with the foot clan (which should have honestly continued forever) is a very specific thing, and they’d never have or should never have become a public enterprise (if laird had accepted some help writing), so the turtles should have had to stay hidden regardless. I think the complaints about this exist and existed from a very subjective place, and that was superhero fatigue, which is understandable. That said, as much problems as I have with peter laird, I do respect him immensely. And he was smart enough to, as I said before, respect the motif of offbeatness and isolation which did and should characterize the tmnt, which is why he made the type of heroes he did. The one thing I do agree with in this video (which is a first I’m usually on board) is that Peter and Kevin are significantly better together. As good as Pete is, he is not a balanced storyteller-neither of them are-and whenever they are apart their proclivities stick out terribly. As it is Pete’s favourite turtle is Donatello (which is bloody ridiculous)-the one ninja turtle who actually doesn’t want to be a ninja. That says it all. Edited 22/07/2024
I don't really think the Justice Force is as "weird" and "offbeat" as, say, the first 10 issues of the volume. They feel extremely uninteresting and generic - as Laird said, they were simply parodies of Golden Age heroes, not exactly "weird" for a comic book. And it's not like there was an interesting twist to the Justice Force. They were just... superheroes but old. That's it. It feels like a huge step down from the more thoughtful foot clan and sci-fi stories that made the comic stand out among the sea of generic superhero comics at the time.
@@TatoruzuHey Tat. I guess we’ll have to disagree. A guy whose power is basically a steel plate? A super-smart dwarf who’s got a chrome dome? Another dwarf who’s got metal, prehensile hair? Sounds pretty weird and offbeat to me. Even the fact that they lived in their own personal retirement home I thought was hilarious. How I read them was exactly how I believe they were put across-as satire, which to my judgement had begun to slowly emerge as part of the tmnt brand, as early as like issue 3 I think, where the turtles are literally killing a bunch of ninjas on the roof while spouting quips like they’re the power rangers. Like, I think that type of biting sarcasm and subtle metatextual commentary was part of the property’s personality from what I judge as the very beginning. I imagine part of the outrage at the time though, was the stagnated pacing of the main story. In truth, it’s pretty early for this type of filler issue, so I can’t argue with people for being frustrated. I suppose there is a difference in perspective here. I don’t know how old you are, but these comics came out before I was born, and so when I eventually made it past the 89’ cartoon-which was in syndication in my country-and onto the primary material, I was able to read all those issues back to back on the old site, and then some in person. I can only imagine for people who read them closer to release how useless a nothing issue like this might have felt, what with the dynamic duo’s _great commitment to meeting deadlines and all that._ E&L clearly bit off more than they could chew, as shown by the removal of the letters column, which I find just as hilarious as you do. Well whatever the case, I still think, thanks to Laird’s skill as a writer and keen awareness of his product, that they aren’t by any stretch world-breaking, or anything drastic like what was claimed in that rather impassioned letter (which is whom I was belatedly addressing in the original comment-Only in re-reading did it occur to me I might be coming across as leveling the words ‘dumb’ and ‘pissy’ at you. Sorry man) Anyways keep up the good work man. The content is slowly becoming more and more dense which makes me pretty excited for the crescendo, whenever that is.
I thought I disagreed with you completely at first, but as I read further, I found I agreed with a lot of what you said. My problem with superheroes being in the TMNT universe is the same problem I have with all the shared superhero universes like the ones Marvel & DC have. With all these superheroes flying around, why aren't they helping out? But you specified that you also think having a REALLY powerful, Superman-like hero WOULD be a mistake, so we actually seem to agree. This is why I didn't like Silver Sentry in the '03 show. I didn't dislike the character specifically, but now I'm always wondering why he isn't doing anything to help in all the other episodes. (I think they actually were shown helping out with alien invasions in the show, though. But other times they just weren't mentioned because then there would be no story because the superheroes would end the problem..) I was OK with magic, time travel, and aliens when the Turtles didn't have access to them whenever they wanted. Usually the Turtles were just thrown into a situation with these things against their will. They didn't have access to the time-travel technology themselves, so you're not asking, "Why don't they just go back in time and kill Shredder before he kills Hamato Yoshi?, etc." I just stopped reading vol. 4 (which Laird posted on the Mirage site to be read for free) because I didn't like aliens being there all the time and the Turtles no longer having to hide. I probably would've stuck around if it wasn't all drawn by Jim Lawson. I REALLY dislike his artwork. I gave up after Laird then wrote an angry blog post telling everyone to stop writing to him to tell him that "Jim Lawson sucks", and that Lawson was not going anywhere. But, like with the Star Wars prequels, I later gained a new kind of appreciation for Lawson after Laird sold the TMNT and everything usually looked even worse that the Lawson artwork I disliked. I still didn't LIKE the prequels or Lawson's artwork, but what came after was so much worse. I also agree that Eastman & Laird worked best as a team rather than individually. They balanced out each others excesses. I think I do prefer Laird's individual efforts compared to Eastman's, though. Eastman's are usually just people beating the crap out of each other, IIRC. The same thing happened with Red Dwarf creators Rob Grant and Doug Naylor. They had some sort of falling out, and the episodes immediately after where only one of them (I don't remember which) was involved were nowhere near as good. They also had written two Red Dwarf novels together that were good: essentially an alternate retelling of events in the show and new material where they weren't restricted by a TV show budget. But after their falling out, they each wrote their own diverging novels picking up from where their joint one left off, and they kind of sucked.
@@KasumiKenshirouI completely agree with you. I kept reading volume 4 in vain hope, but I didn’t like where it was going either. It wasn’t all bad, though, just markedly unbalanced. Like no ninja stuff at all, no mysticism, just pure sci-fi, even in the tales comics. Which is why I find it so revelatory that PL’s favorite turtle is the one who basically hates the whole shtick, and is written to be a pure skeptic, not even desiring to fight or hone his art since all the way back in city of war. You’re right about Kevin too. Bodycount would be basically unreadable if not for Bizley’s work. If I might speak out of turn, I think it is fair to conclude that both Eastman and Laird on their own somewhat miss the point and appeal of their own work. When peter speaks about the magic that happened with the collaboration in the first few issues he’s clearly not lying, and it is to his credit I suppose, that he recognizes and states this openly. And in a way, I think volume 03 is vindicated in hindsight, since not only did it have some of the best art and designs in the entire franchise, but it turns out Laird ended up doing much the same thing decades later, subjecting the turtles to all sorts of strange and unnecessary changes, but with less good art. Except with nearly no ninja stuff. When the 2k3 series came out, I was just so mind blown by the designs and animation, I didn’t care to scrutinize any of it too closely until fast forward. I kind of tucked away the silver sentry. I suppose I didn’t like him either, but I kept hoping he was an utrom as well or something. I also was beat in the head until I. ..accepted Lawson’s work. I stopped liking it in volume 2, and it only got more extreme, more. ..low-effort in my view, as time went on. So that by the end of volume 4 it was just ragged. But like you said, still so much better than everything coming after. I don’t even like santoluco’s half-cutesy, club-footed designs. I can’t remember the name of the guy on the first few issues, but I sort of liked his designs, even if the plastron was too. ..bendy during movement. Like among the things I love about E&L’s turtle designs is that they look like it shouldn’t be possible for them to move the way they do. The idea of a ‘ninja turtle’ is an innately senseless concept, and I love how the original designs (even lawson’s) do nothing to make them more plausible. You see them doing what they do and you just have to accept it as a visual spectacle each time. If the art is to be more realistic, to me we had betters in AC Farley and even Frank Fosco, whose designs are my favorite. I too chafed a lot at Laird’s recalcitrance and curtness, and even today I struggle with the notion that I should somehow pity him because he is a victim of his own success. In order for me to not stay bitter about the sale and his offhanded way of dealing with things, I had to just be grateful for what came before.
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I don't give a Damm about the Justice Force I never liked them
I love Nobody, and the Super Turtles (you know the ninja turtles from another universe where they are super heroes love them)
I love Nobody
I remember that fight between Shredder & Batman. Both of them realized, they needed to lock in.
😂
I think vigilantes work the best in TMNT.
I could see super heroes working if they got their powers from a relevant source in the TMNT universe; mutagen, tech, TCRI accident, or Dimension-X (Depends on the continuity). If it didn't relate to these elements it would feel random. As long as it was introduced early then expanded on I could buy it.
Well genre wise it was meant to be a superhero parody. That’s literally the point . Even though they are more Anti Heroes .
For me Super Heroes in TMNT is a mixed bag. On one hand I enjoy the idea of the boys mixing it up with other heroic figure, on the other hand sometimes it just causes confusion.
Id say my biggest issue with it, is a similar one I have with Marvel. Them all existing in the same city, and somehow just not running into each other all the time. For me the super heroes existing in the world but away from New York mostly would be very alright. Like I really dug the concept and idea of Silver Sentry in 03, even his initial design was dope and it gave us Mikey making a little fanboy hero identity. But I feel like he shouldn't be in New York, maybe Toronto (Harkening to that Superman connection) or California. Just he should have been visiting to track down his enemy then we dont see him again apart from little one shot spots or in the news.
As well it makes the heroes look weak if they can't handle invading Aliens but the Turtles can. Just if handled right they are cool to have, but handled poorly I got no interest.
There you go, long response for you bud. Keep up the solid work! TLDR: Yeah heroes in Turtles is cool, but not all the time, and they shouldn't live in NYC.
In some cases in marvel it makes sense for example daredevil protects hells kitchen new York specifically rarely does he leave unless he's going after a enemy of his to another part of the city some heroes stay in certain areas to make sure at least one area is protected then you got the FF who are usually not on earth a lot or reed in his lab
True. Silver sentry cant stop the purple dragons or shredder
I remember back in ‘03 series, Mikey was the Turtle Titan
"When there's trouble you know who to call!"
He was a homage to an opening to tales of the tmnt comic but silver Sentry is supposed to be radical aka raven shadowheart aka hazel McIntyre
And Raphael aka his Sidekick Tortise Boy
More than old comics, I love the column with fan letters to old comics. Comic creators used to have steel balls to let fan's criticism on the page (not like today). God bless them and give a long life for it
I agree. Reading the fan letters is half the fun
@@Tatoruzu And when they're collected and reprinted, they never reprint these letters. I'm not referring to TMNT specifically here, but comics in general.
Stan Sakai provides interesting background info about his Usagi Yojimbo stories in the letters column, and those are lost in the collected versions.
@@KasumiKenshirou Yep, it's sad. Letters should be reprinted and collected in their own paperback.
@@KasumiKenshirou some "pirate" sites still has old scans with fan letter columns and even fruit pie ad
A secret hospital ran by superheroes? Mighty Med!?
That renet art made me go awooga.
I think 🤔 superheroes in TMNT stories can work, just depends on how they do it.
I think the 03 series handled superheroes well in the Silver Sentry/Turtle Titan episode. It was there to demonstrate that the turtles are not superheroes by having a real superhero appear alongside them.
In some respects, superheroes could fit the mirage universe. They could maybe tackle scenarios or situations that mutants or ninjas (or ninja turtles) can’t or won’t jump into. However, having large gluts of them would damper the uniqueness of the TMNT universe as a whole. The Justice Force is fine, but any more would convert the whole thing into just another superhero universe.
I think superheros can work just fine in the tmnt universe. You just got to do what the dc universe kinda does on a massive scale, you spread the superheros out and have the do things, most of the heavy hiters will be all over the place through time and space, street levels would be busy with other groups and everyone else is retired or doing something else while waiting for the call to need them
3:59 "A little cute- A cute little guy"
:3
Gay
@@BryanBenavides-t5g no u
Costumed vigilantes, martial arts mysticism and other mutants make sense, but superhuman powers should have been left out.
I like the use of Spider-Man ps1 royalty free music.
I like the idea of superheroes existing in the the same world as the TMNT, but I think they should be handled differently than just, "here's some off-brand Marvel/D.C. supers." For example, I liked some of the crossovers the turtles had when they were published by Image because a lot of those characters are also different and weird in their own ways. I'm ok with the Justice Force because, while they are very generic, they're also old so they can contrast with the new generation of supers that are out there.
I guess the main issue I do have with having superheroes existing along with the TMNT and also being in NYC is it then make me wonder why Casey felt the need to put on a hockey mask and beat punks with his bat.
Super heroes are a cool idea like the mutant town. It can be like hellboy and invincible. Since the turtles are a parody they can make fun of bad hero movies and cinematic universes they could even do spin offs like the mutanimals in order to make fun of the multiverse
I always saw the world of TMNT as a “pretty much anything can happen” kind of world so superheroes felt pretty natural to me. It probably also helps that I’m a fan of that sort of thing to begin with.
In the cartoon adaptation of the justice force episode I noticed they left out a detail on zippy. Zippy a parody of the flash. He ran so fast that his legs gave out.
We also had crossover between Batman the animated series and tmnt 2012
Yeah, IDW crosses over EVERYTHING they have the rights to.
Edit: In the few I have read, there's usually some kind of dimensional rift or portal involved. I liked how the animated Batman & TMNT movie didn't have that and just had them live in the same universe.
Ay Dios! 😳Tuve que activar los subtitulos rápido cuando me pareció escuchar "el grupo retrasado de superheroes" 🤣🤣🤣 Hmm, he de decir que este rollo no le pega, quiero decir, no le va bien a TMNT. Salvo el Crossover con Batman (el de tmnt 2012 cómic me la suda, ni lo he leído). Desde el mismo momento en que aparece Nobody por primera vez, me he aburrido con cada una de esas historias en las que salen superheroes. Me dan bastante igual los "superheroes de capa", (a excepción de Batman por supuesto) y que estén ahí interactuando con las tortugas, robándoles el show siempre me ha fastidiado :/
Si hablamos de The Nightwatcher, ese sí está bien para mí, pero si hablamos de tortuga titan... Paso página.
Estoy contigo que en en ése número molaban los pequeños detalles en los que puedes fijarte cuando están en la tienda de cómics, pero eso fué lo único que me gustó y me tuvo un rato observando detenidamente...luego fué horriblemente aburrido. Esas cartas a Peter Laird son una perla, en serio! Si no aclaras que no fuiste tú, bueno, jajaja sí que lo parece 😏😂😂😂 "Están muy bien juntos pero apestan separados!! " eso es oro molido! 🤣🤣🤣 Y que quitaran esa sección para que la gente no pudiese opinar sobre esa basura, oh mierda...
Muy buen video Tatoruzu! , sigue con el buen trabajo👏🏻😊🍕🐢
The tmnt maybe not be the "Heroes in a half shell" like the 87 toon counterpart, Yet You forget their origin is embedded with super heroes such as "Daredevil the man without fear" (daredevil isn't always in that frank miller ninja action with the hand, heck even within frank millers run he lets darvedevil have a diverse variety of villains and opponent's to face he fought the Hulk, he fights the kingpin, silver saintcloud, Nuke, typhoid mary, bushwacker, psychopaths like Bullseye & Muse, wacky villains like mister fear, jester, indestructible man, gladiator the owl, the fantasic fours villain mole man, stilt man, matador, boomerang.*) tmnt has other super heroes introduced in the comics and media that made a fine edition to the franchise take "Silver Sentry" from the 2003 show, Radical aka Raven Shadowheart/ Hazel McIntyre, & Complete Carnage who are a Black american SuperMan, Native American SuperGirl or Native American Etrigan the demon equivalent in the Mirage and 2003 show Universe. they don't take away why humans would and could fear the tmnt because these characters are human unlike the turtle monsters and raven shadowheart shows up alot in the mirage /image universe and silver Sentry is a cool black superman like character that inspires Michaelangelo to be a costumed vigilante turtle titan, which in turn you'd get silver Sentry son turtle titan II in fast forward and in Big bang #10 you get a secret origin as to why they turtles wear uniformed eye mask rather than a blue ninja mask because they came across the superhero Galahad a Dick Grayson Robin knockoff sidekick to the Batman knock off knight watchman from Image comics tmnt vol3 who was connected to Hamato Yoshi and is sent to hunt down one of orroku sakis love intrest the head hunter and the turtles teamed up with the mystery men (you know the team they made an obscure 90s superhero movie with ben stiller wes studi kel Mitchell) from the Dark horse flaming carrot comics and the tmnt cross over with image savage dragon etc.
Dr domes domeoids made a cameo in the 90s first film in a deleted end credits scene
Is that the one where April is pitching to the comic book company?
Angle aka Nobody isn't a black person in the idw comics
But yeah i prefer the OG Nobody he was way cooler
Rick James : Cocaine is one hell of a drug 👩🏿🦱
I liked them when i watched them from the 2003 series
I love superheroes
Where Naruto
Honestly I think the complaint in the letter is just dumb and unnecessarily pissy, edgelording before edgelord was a thing. By issue 5 we’ve already introduced inter-dimensional travel, advanced alien races, a pencil that can create god-like beings in a hidden dimension, and a street vigilante who’s basically a dumb conan in a hockey mask-later down the line concepts like magic and time travel were introduced and no-one complained. But we are really drawing the line at dudes in capes. Superheroes existed in the in-universe fiction, so with all that was going on they would have been a noticeable oversight, eventually. What’s more, the superheroes are clearly a past thing-they’re retired, and have already passed somewhat into the realm of myth, which is why Mikey’s surprised they actually exist. So it’s not blowing the lid off anything really. They’re also weird enough to match the offbeat nature of the tmnt, and their narrative motif.
I think what would actually have broken things is if stupidly powerful or overtly nationalistic heroes like Superman or Captain America existed. Then they would both make street level guys like the tmnt just useless, and would then *actually* take away from their need to hide. As it is, no heroes like that exist in the mirage comics, and there are so few of them that every hero more than has their hands full. So it’s not like their respective villains would cross-tread. What’s more, the turtles blood-feud with the foot clan (which should have honestly continued forever) is a very specific thing, and they’d never have or should never have become a public enterprise (if laird had accepted some help writing), so the turtles should have had to stay hidden regardless.
I think the complaints about this exist and existed from a very subjective place, and that was superhero fatigue, which is understandable. That said, as much problems as I have with peter laird, I do respect him immensely. And he was smart enough to, as I said before, respect the motif of offbeatness and isolation which did and should characterize the tmnt, which is why he made the type of heroes he did.
The one thing I do agree with in this video (which is a first I’m usually on board) is that Peter and Kevin are significantly better together. As good as Pete is, he is not a balanced storyteller-neither of them are-and whenever they are apart their proclivities stick out terribly. As it is Pete’s favourite turtle is Donatello (which is bloody ridiculous)-the one ninja turtle who actually doesn’t want to be a ninja. That says it all.
Edited 22/07/2024
I don't really think the Justice Force is as "weird" and "offbeat" as, say, the first 10 issues of the volume. They feel extremely uninteresting and generic - as Laird said, they were simply parodies of Golden Age heroes, not exactly "weird" for a comic book. And it's not like there was an interesting twist to the Justice Force. They were just... superheroes but old. That's it. It feels like a huge step down from the more thoughtful foot clan and sci-fi stories that made the comic stand out among the sea of generic superhero comics at the time.
@@TatoruzuHey Tat. I guess we’ll have to disagree. A guy whose power is basically a steel plate? A super-smart dwarf who’s got a chrome dome? Another dwarf who’s got metal, prehensile hair? Sounds pretty weird and offbeat to me. Even the fact that they lived in their own personal retirement home I thought was hilarious. How I read them was exactly how I believe they were put across-as satire, which to my judgement had begun to slowly emerge as part of the tmnt brand, as early as like issue 3 I think, where the turtles are literally killing a bunch of ninjas on the roof while spouting quips like they’re the power rangers. Like, I think that type of biting sarcasm and subtle metatextual commentary was part of the property’s personality from what I judge as the very beginning.
I imagine part of the outrage at the time though, was the stagnated pacing of the main story. In truth, it’s pretty early for this type of filler issue, so I can’t argue with people for being frustrated.
I suppose there is a difference in perspective here. I don’t know how old you are, but these comics came out before I was born, and so when I eventually made it past the 89’ cartoon-which was in syndication in my country-and onto the primary material, I was able to read all those issues back to back on the old site, and then some in person. I can only imagine for people who read them closer to release how useless a nothing issue like this might have felt, what with the dynamic duo’s _great commitment to meeting deadlines and all that._
E&L clearly bit off more than they could chew, as shown by the removal of the letters column, which I find just as hilarious as you do.
Well whatever the case, I still think, thanks to Laird’s skill as a writer and keen awareness of his product, that they aren’t by any stretch world-breaking, or anything drastic like what was claimed in that rather impassioned letter (which is whom I was belatedly addressing in the original comment-Only in re-reading did it occur to me I might be coming across as leveling the words ‘dumb’ and ‘pissy’ at you. Sorry man)
Anyways keep up the good work man. The content is slowly becoming more and more dense which makes me pretty excited for the crescendo, whenever that is.
I understand your perspective and I can definitely see why some people wouldn't mind the Justice Force
I thought I disagreed with you completely at first, but as I read further, I found I agreed with a lot of what you said. My problem with superheroes being in the TMNT universe is the same problem I have with all the shared superhero universes like the ones Marvel & DC have. With all these superheroes flying around, why aren't they helping out? But you specified that you also think having a REALLY powerful, Superman-like hero WOULD be a mistake, so we actually seem to agree. This is why I didn't like Silver Sentry in the '03 show. I didn't dislike the character specifically, but now I'm always wondering why he isn't doing anything to help in all the other episodes. (I think they actually were shown helping out with alien invasions in the show, though. But other times they just weren't mentioned because then there would be no story because the superheroes would end the problem..)
I was OK with magic, time travel, and aliens when the Turtles didn't have access to them whenever they wanted. Usually the Turtles were just thrown into a situation with these things against their will. They didn't have access to the time-travel technology themselves, so you're not asking, "Why don't they just go back in time and kill Shredder before he kills Hamato Yoshi?, etc." I just stopped reading vol. 4 (which Laird posted on the Mirage site to be read for free) because I didn't like aliens being there all the time and the Turtles no longer having to hide. I probably would've stuck around if it wasn't all drawn by Jim Lawson. I REALLY dislike his artwork. I gave up after Laird then wrote an angry blog post telling everyone to stop writing to him to tell him that "Jim Lawson sucks", and that Lawson was not going anywhere.
But, like with the Star Wars prequels, I later gained a new kind of appreciation for Lawson after Laird sold the TMNT and everything usually looked even worse that the Lawson artwork I disliked. I still didn't LIKE the prequels or Lawson's artwork, but what came after was so much worse.
I also agree that Eastman & Laird worked best as a team rather than individually. They balanced out each others excesses. I think I do prefer Laird's individual efforts compared to Eastman's, though. Eastman's are usually just people beating the crap out of each other, IIRC.
The same thing happened with Red Dwarf creators Rob Grant and Doug Naylor. They had some sort of falling out, and the episodes immediately after where only one of them (I don't remember which) was involved were nowhere near as good. They also had written two Red Dwarf novels together that were good: essentially an alternate retelling of events in the show and new material where they weren't restricted by a TV show budget. But after their falling out, they each wrote their own diverging novels picking up from where their joint one left off, and they kind of sucked.
@@KasumiKenshirouI completely agree with you. I kept reading volume 4 in vain hope, but I didn’t like where it was going either. It wasn’t all bad, though, just markedly unbalanced. Like no ninja stuff at all, no mysticism, just pure sci-fi, even in the tales comics. Which is why I find it so revelatory that PL’s favorite turtle is the one who basically hates the whole shtick, and is written to be a pure skeptic, not even desiring to fight or hone his art since all the way back in city of war. You’re right about Kevin too. Bodycount would be basically unreadable if not for Bizley’s work. If I might speak out of turn, I think it is fair to conclude that both Eastman and Laird on their own somewhat miss the point and appeal of their own work. When peter speaks about the magic that happened with the collaboration in the first few issues he’s clearly not lying, and it is to his credit I suppose, that he recognizes and states this openly. And in a way, I think volume 03 is vindicated in hindsight, since not only did it have some of the best art and designs in the entire franchise, but it turns out Laird ended up doing much the same thing decades later, subjecting the turtles to all sorts of strange and unnecessary changes, but with less good art. Except with nearly no ninja stuff.
When the 2k3 series came out, I was just so mind blown by the designs and animation, I didn’t care to scrutinize any of it too closely until fast forward. I kind of tucked away the silver sentry. I suppose I didn’t like him either, but I kept hoping he was an utrom as well or something.
I also was beat in the head until I. ..accepted Lawson’s work. I stopped liking it in volume 2, and it only got more extreme, more. ..low-effort in my view, as time went on. So that by the end of volume 4 it was just ragged. But like you said, still so much better than everything coming after. I don’t even like santoluco’s half-cutesy, club-footed designs. I can’t remember the name of the guy on the first few issues, but I sort of liked his designs, even if the plastron was too. ..bendy during movement. Like among the things I love about E&L’s turtle designs is that they look like it shouldn’t be possible for them to move the way they do. The idea of a ‘ninja turtle’ is an innately senseless concept, and I love how the original designs (even lawson’s) do nothing to make them more plausible. You see them doing what they do and you just have to accept it as a visual spectacle each time. If the art is to be more realistic, to me we had betters in AC Farley and even Frank Fosco, whose designs are my favorite.
I too chafed a lot at Laird’s recalcitrance and curtness, and even today I struggle with the notion that I should somehow pity him because he is a victim of his own success. In order for me to not stay bitter about the sale and his offhanded way of dealing with things, I had to just be grateful for what came before.