Ep. 28 - What the Pros use! In Walls VS Bookshelves VS Tower Speaker | Home Theater Gurus
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ค. 2024
- Want the ultimate home theater speaker with the best sound possible? In walls and how they compare to other designs and why they may be chosen over another design. Bookshelf ( book shelves ) VS Towers VS inwalls.
For room plans, building and design consultation contact me at @
Elitehomecinema.sales@gmail.com
In walls
Klipsch 7800
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...
Def Tech Di 6.5
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...
Def Tech UIW RLS 2
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...
Monolith THX-365IW (this is one I'm looking at for the new theater)
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07... - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
This channel needs more views. This is the best home theater channel on TH-cam. Very knowledgeable, doesn't spread misinformation or advertisements, no audiophile snake oil.
Blake Schmidt 100% agree, I share different content from this channel via Facebook depending on questions people ask. It’s great
Blake Schmidt absolutely agree! This guy takes 5hrs of AVS forum reading and packs it into 10 min of easy to understand entertainment
I agree. Best home theater channel I’ve seen. Some of the others out there are getting a little weird.
Daniel Wander yeah and some of the content is just crap. Almost like sales pitches more than anything else. This channel let’s us know how to get the best out of what we already have.
Keith Raufer exactly. I don’t wanna get specific but we all watch the same guys. There are some guys who A/B speakers over TH-cam which is pretty stupid. they put themselves out there as experts when they are from it. Also, manufacturer and dealer sponsorship is starting to pop up which causes all sorts of issues. I don’t wanna knock someone for earning a living but it bothers me that people who don’t know any better use the reviews to make purchases without being made aware of all the biases involved. Just the fact that no one wants to put out a bad review bc they are worried manufacturers will cut them off is an issue. I get that it’s how the game is played but I guess I’d just like everything to be out in the open so people know what they are watching.
Out of the ~30 channels I’m subscribed, your’s is the only one I’ve got the notifications turned on for! The two upcoming episodes sound great, but you’ve already teased us with baffle wall concept. Please! Please dedicate a video to baffle wall theory, minimum thickness requirements, suggested speaker surround/gasket material ( if using towers we already own), and how the angled front corners might affect Dr. Toole’s modal frequency charts. Again, thanks so much for all your hard work putting these videos together for us!
Thanks so much! There's definitely a lack of non biased info out there.
I'll add that to the list.
Really looking forward to the sub design video. I’m planning on making some very soon and would find your information definitely useful.
i have 5 in wall jbl studio speakers and a 400w sub. the sound is absolutely incredible. music or movies. off the chart. and i have had a lifetime of great speaker set ups.
What An Education! I have completely reversed my impression (& misconception) regarding In Wall Speakers… Thank You Sir
This is why I love true cinema speakers that are designed to be housed in baffle walls. Even my surrounds are meant to be placed in baffle walls. Great explanations!!!
Yeah they are awesome but hard to properly place. If you have a large enough room and can properly place them they are definitely awesome. I really enjoyed my old QSC 2150s.
Great video, can’t wait for toe-in and sub design!
Great video. As I start my construction for my media room this Sat. I just began to think of symmetrical columns on my front wall. But after seeing this and understanding "off axis better" I'll need to update my contractor about changing the regular columns to angled corners in order to put the L&R speaker in those corner columns now. Great stuff. Thank you!! still need help deciding on which speakers will best suit my space.
Very good decision. As for speaker choices and room design don't forget we do room design complete with our own DIY acoustic panel plans. Our email info is in the description.
Yet again another interesting and informative video,keep up the great work Steven
Look forward to the next vid 😘👍🏼
Thanks. And thanks for the pics!
I have in walls, I had floor standings forever and I can comfortably say that I love it. I would never go back.
Yep, we're almost done with our new house and i have 27 inwalls/in ceilings in this house. Done right you lose no performance but gain some. Mains are the only place that requires special attention with the angled walls as they need that toe in.
Wow your channel is a goldmine mate. Thank you.
You're welcome and thank you!
Thanks for the video, one really REALLY good in-walls are the JBL SCL's.
I'm curious about these. Especially compared to M&K and JTR.
This is by FAR my favorite site for home theater knowledge period. Thank you for what you do. I agree that in walls are much better then people realize. My room unfortunately came with the house I couldn't build it. I had to make some serious compromises. But it came out sounding very well thanks to your site. My question is this when designing the room prebuilt I ran into the issue of cost. I went with the JBL studio 5 lineup I fell in love with that line when demoing them on sale. When on sale they are a great speaker I bout my 3 front 590 towers for $450 apiece. One thing I ran into with in walls is cost. It's really really hard to find efficient powerful in walls that can give you really solid bass extension dynamics and performance at least commercially without paying out the nose for it. It made dealing with the room boundary issues worth it to me it's a pain in the butt but the money saved as I built the room was well worth it. I believe you mentioned in previous episodes that due to crossovers and eq in home theater having the speakers closer to the walls is not as critical as typical 2 channel setups. In fact when I moved my 590's closer to the wall just 3 inches off I had a huge improvement in performance. I'm at your recommended separation for the l r but am lucky that they are not by the corners the room is 18 feet wide though. Anyways thanks for a great episode I'm a complete supporter of what you do. Just wondering about how you feel about cost of really good in walls compared to equivalent cost of floorstanders
The pros use in walls because our customers wives make us....😆
LOL, the very reason why I'm researching this..
Good one!!!😆
@@AZRob. me too fella!
@@AZRob. same here
😂😂😂😂💯
I've watched a lot of H.T. videos and yours are very good ! You know your stuff.....🙋
Thanks diy... hydro.... Man that's a long name! 😁
I've done this and can attest that my results were very good. I've used corning damping on my main wall which also helps. Listening this way is like listening near field. Super clear. All speakers mounted on svs soundpath absorbers. That cleans up the bass.
Getting ready to buildout basement for home theater. Also, going to use Triad speakers based on your recommendation and the 45 degree angle on some of their speakers for Atmos. My question is, will most in wall / ceiling speakers work when you add two layers of Sheetrock for soundproofing? Thanks
Love your stuff. Your audio is clipping somewhere and has been in all your videos. Obviously sound is important to you so you might look into where this is happening. You using wireless lapel? Could be receiver is set to high and it won't show clipping once it goes into the recording device because it's actually clipping at the receiver. What are you using?
What do you think about using the Monoprice Monolith THX-265IW horizontally mounted as Atmos channels? Their whole THX line is timbre matched, but I've heard that horizontal speakers, especially with center channels, can cancel out sound waves.
Thank you for sharing. 👍 love your videos!
You're welcome and thanks!
Love this channel. Awesome videos 👍
How about LRC with the Center being say smaller (but same speaker range) then the LR speakers?
Same goes for the rear speakers.
You'll keep the tone the same but you'll loose scale ,my center speaker used smaller drivers ,I upgraded the center to the match driver size and it helped ,no more LR overpowering my center when things kick off on screen ,if your rears are close to you ,you can get away with smaller drivers ,but if they ain't you'll notice your soundstage being front dominated
love your content. Need a little advise. I have chosen Def tech Di6.5lcrs for my fronts and center. I have chosen inwalls because of a door and I didn't want my screen to be off center. My question is how far should the speakers be? I am thinking between 120 and 140 inch screens but I am happy to compromise on screen size if the speaker needs to be closer together. Can't angle them unfortunately.
Great video, One thing I don't get is if one were to install the bookshelf's in the wall I would assume the deign of the speaker would have to be front ported, Like the FR line you drew had a natural house curve to it, is this because they are now sealed and the room is creating that curve or the total enclosure is creating the curve.
So would sealing the back ports of speakers help if the speakers are close to the wall that have no wall treatment
Good question, I was wondering the same!
In wall vs in room has been a discussion for a long time. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. You mention some very good advantages for in walls and could’ve probably touched a little more on the disadvantage of in walls such as being harder to upgrade in the future, harder to move around and adjust, and dealing with room repairs if you decide to move and take your in walls with you. Besides the advantages and disadvantages of in walls, there is also other things to consider like the costs of the speakers and what the speakers look like. For me and a lot of people, they want to show off in room speakers and they don’t care if the sonic profile of the room could be increase by moving the speaker into a wall. Sometime people don’t mind paying 2-5x more for floor standing salons because they want that visual “presence”. I get it. There’s no right answer. But to what your video is about, no, in walls don’t suck, but I wouldn’t say in room sucks either.
Very true but as a dedicated theater designer I approach it from strictly performance when of course properly used. Performance is where many falsy think they fail, when the opposition is true.
Properly installed speakers never need to be moved around and adjusted.
Thats actually really useful, Im about to build a cinema myself
I see that properly sealing off a bookshelf speaker/non in wall specific speaker to make sure that you don't get the wrap around is good. If you have the option to leave the back end of the speaker exposed (like in a unfinished basement) to let a rear port breathe and not have a wall behind that, would there be an advantage to that?
At what frequency does having an enclosure behind inwall's become important?
love your videos!! Some of the home theater forums suggested a backbox to an in-wall and ceiling speakers. Isn't defeating the purpose of an in-wall speaker?
no. the purpose of in wall is cleaner design and no rear reflections as the wall becomes your baffle
You should be adding a caveat about cabinet resonance. In-wall/ceiling speakers have a bad rep because of bad installation. Using proper bracing in the framing stage, as well as implementing constrained dampening using layers of mdf, green glue, and finishing with sheetrock is essential to creating great sound.
This video is strictly covering acoustic benifits. Proper installation and sound containment methods would be videos I will cover in the future. Especially methods for sound containment.
Hi. What about on-wall speakers such as the B&W ct 700 series. Here in Europe most of our walls are brick or concrete so in-wall speakers really aren t feasible. Are there any major downsides to on wall speakers. There is not really any good information regarding on-walls online. Thx
Trying to make a decision on what type of speakers to buy..inwall or towers. What if the wall my tv is mounted does not have any insulation, will “all” the sound still be projected forward? Thank you.
Im getting close to start building my room in the basement. Just building a front faulse wall and right wall to enclose the room. I have Polk Audio LSIM 705 towers and a LSIM 706 center. These towers are bottom ported. Do i bother trying to build corner baffle walls? What do you use to build them with? What stuffing materal?
**laughs in Paul McGowan** Nah, I'm kidding, this is fantastic information. I am still amazed by the difference in presentation and energy between this episode and episode 1. Crazy.
That out of the way, I have planned on running my speakers in-wall with proper toe-in (per ep 1) and this definitely makes me want to move ahead with that plan a little quicker!
I shot episode 1 three different times. And the version you see is edited like crazy. Severe stage fright and even though it was just a camera I was struggling big time. You should see the first two that I trashed.. 😂
Definitely better now.
If i used the jensen in wall front surround left and right, that also have the centre channels built into them and made corner units like the ones in the video would the centre speaker sound be off axis?
Hello, can you build in in-wall speakers at an angle? My front wall has a door in one corner so I can't frame it in like the example build you showed. And the back wall would be too wide apart as you mentioned. If they were built in at an angle of about 30 to 45 degrees would that work. Kind of like how manufacturers make in-ceiling speakers. But then I thought if that worked why haven't manufacturers done that, like they do with in-ceiling speakers any advice would be appreciated Cheers.
When you build angled walls for the in-wall front speakers, how do you toe them in? I mean, once the wall is build its a bit late to modify the angle, isn't it? Or do you build the walls perfectly perpendicular to the MLP?
The angles are built into the baffle wall. The wall sections flanking the screen will angle.
Awesome video!
I got some cheap Acoustic Audio IW speakers from Amazon. I wasn’t expecting much performance for the price, but they do their job surprisingly well. I’ve had them for 8 months now and I only discovered about 3 weeks ago that I can aim the tweeters in them. I toed them in by sight and I can definitely hear a difference in my front stage. I’d love to see if there is a more technical way of doing it though. Thank you so much for your videos!
Thanks!
I've heard some surprising good budget speakers.
how much is consultation? I am building anew house but I have everything already from my old setup but was thinking of getting from diysg for a new dedicated room I am designing and just putting my old stuff in a bedroom setup. Since it will be before construction and house design it will be easy to design cus it will come from a clean slate. Thinking of all diy speakers can I mount the 1099 kit inwall? was thinking of doing an acoustical screen as well with inwall angled but behind the screen all subs 2 21" full marty and 2 21" devastators will be behind the screen as well.
Contact me at the email address in the description.
I prefer bookshelf speakers on mounting brackets for the rears and floor standing speakers for the fronts
Who gives a fuck what you think David.
Lmao
Are the klipsch THX 2 in-wall speakers a good buy?
In-wall speakers can most certainly be hyper accurate and in alot of cases better than bookshelves or floorstanding. SBIR is often solvable though. One just has to place the speakers at a distance from the wall where the SBIR null is below 100hz and then set the crossover into the sub accordingly to eliminate the null. The sacrifice is your crossover might be set higher than 80hz but thats an extremely minor issue compared to SBIR. Any other boundary issues can be treated. I once got an 11x13x8 room with terrible SBIR from two nearfield studio monitors into an 8db frequency response range. There was a floorsub too. But that was with speakers sitting on a desk with 4" of OC703 on top with the listener in front of the desk with all front and ceiling corners, first points of reflection absorption, early reflection absorbstion, and with a foot of mineral wool on the back wall .... and itd probably qualify as a semi-anechoic chamber 🤣. Id never be able to do that in a home theater.
I have a video on that too but like you said we can't usually pull off getting speakers far enough away to lower the sbir below the crossover, at least in home theater. When doing room plans if I'm forced to use in room speakers, I do eliminate sbir.
should we create a box in the dry wall for the inwall speakers
I know there are some projector screen can allow the sound to come through behind it, that way can I put the in-wall speakers behind the screen?
Yep You'll want a woven AT (acoustically transparent ) screen. I really like Seymour screen material.
You’re assuming the seating is in the middle of the room when you’re placing the front left and rights. However, in the home theatre I’m building, the seating is spread from wall to wall facing the screen. Where do you recommend I place the front LCR? Straight or curved on the edges? Room is 14.5x18.5 with a 10ft ceiling. Thank you.
I recommend you reach out for assistance on standard rooms but especially ones like this where you're dealing with compromised seating.
hello,so what should i do for my home theater?is that means,every speakers should be in-wall except main speakers?but why none of those cinema use in-wall except lcr? thanks
I currently have B&W CM8 towers for my LCR. For the best sound would I place my L and R towers behind an AT screen or should I hide them in toed corners of the front of the room?
See ep1. I'd place them at 60 degrees apart which is very rarely behind the screen. We often see mains way too close which causes the sound bar effect.
@@hometheatergurus ahhh that definitely answers my question. Thank you for the quick response and GREAT content! I’ll watch the ep
@@mikemonreal6291 you're welcome.
Can I put my rp 600 m as rear wall speakers inserted into the wall? Because I don’t have enough space behind my seating ?
So what do these high end companies do about surround and ceiling speakers in regards to being in axis? I'm guessing they do in-walls for everything, in which case, if they have award winning designs and layouts, how do they handle the on axis placement of say, ceiling speakers specifically? Do they angle ceiling speakers?
Yes they have in ceilings with extreme angles. Triad has several with 45 degree angled baffles. Klipsch even has a model with a 45 degree angle. Also many will use bookshelves on brackets to aim them and are often hidden behind fabric panels.
Regarding speakers with good axis, would the Klipsch 8000F's be considered a speaker with good axis or not so good? I'm a newbie and trying to educate myself here! Thanks~
That's one of Klipsch's good designs. It has good on and off axis.
@@hometheatergurus Really appreciate you getting back to me with this. Thanks! REALLY enjoy your vids, too!
What about if you want to put the speakers behind a transparent screen how would you position them like an example on air motion tweeter speaker that way all the sound comes from the screen or would you still do it that way
Mains should very rarely be behind a screen. Remember we have tolerances to place all speakers. Mains ideally will be at 60 degrees apart (for the widest sound stage). Most like a screen around 45 degrees. The absolute minimum angle for mains is 44 degrees (center to center) meaning there's no way you can have them behind the screen in my example here and have them in tolerance. It's a good sure fire way to ruin the Soundstage.
I cover this in ep 1.
@@hometheatergurus thanks for the info
Hi
Your channel is definitely knowledgeable
I'm interested your concept of building wall for in wall speaker
Having several questions about it would u mind to help,,
1. As we put Front L, R. Seperated 44-60 degree apart and place L, R not behind the screen. HOW'S ABOUT THE CETER CHANNEL? Should it be place below the screen? (but inwall maybe find the hard way to tilt it up to the listening position)
Or. The center channel can be behind the screen with some adjustment?
2. I'm planing to build a dedicate home theater for 7.1.4/ 9.1.6. What room dimension do u recommend to get the reference performance of the system (THX, etc?)
I'm thinking about to use Klipsch inwall 8000l, 8000s into 2.9*4.6*6.5 m or. 2.6*4.2*5.5 m
The center ideally be behind the screen and match the mains. I would rethink the speaker choice for something wide dispersion. See the room treatment videos.
@@hometheatergurus thank you! :)
Very very informative as usual👍👌
What about in-ceiling speakers? 🤔
Great video.. I am about to start construction on my new basement theatre and was looking into Thx Klipsch 8000-l x5 with 8000-s x2 for surrounds... since these speakers have their own “shells/cases’ does it make them not as ideal for front sound stage in wall? Ty I may also be reaching out for some advice!!
Also my room is only going to be able to be 11’W but 28’ long with 8’ ceilings is the 11’ width going to kill all my hopes and dreams of immersive audio options such as 7.2.4/6?
Thank you
Thanks, Those are a narrow dispersion so they will limit the effectiveness of the treatments we use to improve spaciousness.
The room size can work very well if the seats and every are properly placed.
@@hometheatergurus Thank you! Would you build that "slanted wall in corner" in a room only 11'W ? Or would you just go behind screen? ty
There's too many unknowns until the seating is placed. From there you can calculate speaker placement and screen size.
I will say of all the room designs I've done I have never placed mains behind a screen. It's always going to place them too close with angles far less than anything I'd recommend.
@@hometheatergurus How can I contact you for potential consulting for planning this room? TY I am in NH if it matters
It's narrow but is doable.
You can contact me using the email in the video description.
Hi there, if you have no possibility to angle the in-wall front speakers to the listener position would it be a better choice to use tilting on-wall speakers instead?
Yeah it would be far better. Look at the more recent videos. I have one on toe in. You can also Google home theater gurus toe in.
Ok I see what your saying, but what if your room is to wide and you want those speakers behind the screen, how can you get the right effect with in wall speakers?
You hire me to lay out the room.. 😁
But seriously mains can work behind a screen but often that puts them too close unless the screen is so wide most would quickly find it fatiguing. You can also alter the room acoustics unless the speakers are narrow dispersion then you're screwed as far as that goes. Also wides can be incorporated. They should be incorporated any time budget allows IMO.
I have some speakers made for me for on wall i build them into my walls wow they sing
I’ve auditioned several in walls. Speakers essentially work by moving and vibrating air. Therefore in walls are disadvantaged by their limited exposure to air and space. Also if they’re placed behind a perforated screen that is yet another disadvantage.
The best speaker I’ve ever heard is the Goldenear Triton One R. I have not heard in walls that come anywhere close to it. In walls are generally compromises for people who want bigger screens or have smaller rooms. I went with a smaller screen with floorstanders and box speakers all around because audio is just as important as video to me. Great picture is pointless when paired with tinny compromised in wall speakers.
You need to find better inwalls. Specially inwalls at a level they have matching in room speakers with identical drivers.
Dont use perf screens!
@@hometheatergurus A few useless thoughts:
-of course I have not heard every in wall speaker on the market. But I challenge you or anyone else to find an in wall that can meet or exceed the sound quality and impact of the Golderear Triton One R. It doesn't exist.
-again, in wall speakers are for people who prioritize screen size or making speakers "invisible" over audio quality. They would much rather have big video than big audio.
-lastly acoustically transparent screen (AT) is the CE industry's fancy marketing term for a perforated screen, An AT screen is a screen with holes to allow audio to pass through but in home applications, that generally compromises audio quality when speakers are placed behind them.
@@GalvatronTypeR check out the video I did on screens. You want woven.
Goldenear also manufactures an in wall comparable to the Tritons called the Invisa SPS. I’m planning to install them in my living room, and if I like them, in my basement theater
Your extra output as you call it is because you’ve created a low frequency resonance chamber. Don’t get me wrong, we use that also in professional mixing room (although we tend to mix more on near field monitors) to a/b and have a more hifi perspective, but if you want a balanced response, you will have to eq out some of the low frequencies.
It's because you have no sbir as explained in the video. As for resonance chamber I guess you mean the wall cavity but if properly installed you won't have any issues or resonance. I usually use enclosed Inwalls.
If you aren't familiar with SBIR and my video didn't explain it well, here you go. Awesome article.
arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/
@@hometheatergurus i mean a wall is not filled, there's air gaps where sounds waves can transmit, just think of a guitar or a violin, especially if you have a two leaf wall system (the best kind to offer sound insulation) your beams are going to be staggered leaving space for the sound to travel in between the insulating bats. That creates a resonance chamber (it's also why we tend not to float a wooden frame floor). And due to the spacing (air cavity) in between the frame the lower frequencies will resonate more, compared to the higher frequencies that will be absorbed by the bats and the gypsium. Even if it was a single leaf wall frame, the basse wave will still be able to travel through the frame and will be amplified by the air gap (again think of a guitar or violin for how the sound waves are amplified). It's sound insulation 101.
@@emanuelchayer1756 these are often in false wall baffle walls with no cavity. But yes an open back speaker in a regular wall will resonate which is why you should ideally use enclosured Inwalls or simply absorb it.
The extra output is however for the reason explained in the video. No sbir and all energy forced forward. Resonance is another issue which like speaker in their enclosures can be dealt with by absorbing it in the cavity. A wall cavity with an open back inwall becomes a speaker enclosure. You handle resonance the same way its handles in all speakers.
Wouldn't toeing in also be predicated on screen size ? Say the screen edges are some ways in from the edges of the room , adding L-R speakers to toed in edges of the room may create a sound stage that is out of sync with the on screen action ?
Screen size must also be taking into account. No they wont be out of sync. Most studios place the mains at 60 apart so this is outside the viewing angle of most screens . I dont like to go wider than 45 with 16:9 and 55 with scope to make sure the clients aren't fatigued. When something is placed on what would be the left or right side on the screen they use both the center and L/R to place the object where they want and steer it across the front of the room.
One potential issue with mounting speakers in the corners is the tendency for standing waves to accumulate there. I had originally intended to stack bass traps in the corners, but with in walls there (and above them my Auro heights) this would be difficult. Anyone have any thoughts?
We're crossing to subs and also avoiding modal issues when we place them and our seating. We also fix modal issues with treatments when possible. Properly handled the boundary gain can be used as headroom you just can't leave it "untamed".
@@hometheatergurus
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I believe Gene Delasalla from Audioholics believes in 4 subs in the corners, but he places them in front of the bass traps. What about a false wall about 4 feet out from the existing wall, would there be any benefit to bass traps on that wall?
Some in walls cones can be angled within the fixture. Are they any good?
Some are but in a two way the problem is your only aiming a tweeter and the meat of the vocals are produced by the woofer. The repsonse will change quite a bit across a row of seats.
I have speakercraft AIM in walls. Both woofer and tweeter are independently aimable.
@@mattjhamilton22 Thank you for mentioning these, I didn't know they existed. How do you like them?
@@AZRob. they are really nice. A little on the pricey side, but not much more than something like Klipsh. Lifetime warranty is a bonus.
Some really great info.
I generally take issue when people compare commercial theater setups to how should things be done at home.
A commercial theater has completely different goals. they have a large seating area they try to accomodate surround sound to. They use a general appraoch of making the entire room the sound environment so even if you are way off center you can still appreciate the surround sound as if you are sitting in the corner of said environment, this is why they use 12 different channels and theater mixes are different then home near field audio mixes. Theaters have large speakers and horns that often sound "honky" and subs that can hit 5hz. Try that at home like with "Edge of Tommorow" and you get alot of angry consumers with blown woofers.
A home theater especially in an open living room setup like most modern house layouts is a vastly different environment with a smaller listening area you can target. Especially when most people want a multi use system for music and theater.
So there is something to be learned from how professional theaters do things however one should not fall into the trap of believing the way they do things commercially is always the correct solution for home theater, very often this is not the case.
Well said which is why we discuss home theater applications on the channel and in the video. Commercial cinemas do not have subs down to 5hz BTW. If you look at the subs they use they're often are tuned to 25-30hz. Home theater subs in our rooms by nature play far lower than commercial theaters.
Show us your room and setup and explain how and why you setup as such
Look back in my videos and you'll see a home theater walk through. I've recently sold that house and will soon be building another house and theater.
After viewing this video, I took a hard pause installing in-walls speakers as I can't angle the speakers towards the viewer, in a nutshell, my setup is 120'' non-acoustic screen and 15-16 feet viewer distance. So L, R speakers will be around 110'' apart, is this not a recommended configuration?
I started a discussion in avsforum, but nobody replied yet.
www.avsforum.com/threads/in-wall-front-speakers-angle-orientation-direction.3182599/
The hard part is there isn't a lot of feedback on different in-wall speakers. I currently have 6 upgraded Klipsch KLF-30's for my mains and ground-level surrounds, so I'm really worried I'll be losing a lot by going with in-walls. Anyone know where I can find info on high end stuff for in-walls?
If you have a dedicated HT inwalls will perform better if the room is laid out properly. Personally I use Triad in the majority of my designs but I also layout the acoustics for them as well. Triad is a little different than the mass market brands as the inwalls are all enclosed and are better built than most in room speakers. They also have in room version of all of their inwalls so you're getting the exact same drivers just made to be installed inwall. When I first started designing professionally I sought them out as that is the brand I wanted in my rooms.
Lol it’s your insulation that cause it lol. That’s why some in wall have their own enclosure lol.
Hi @HomeTheaterGurus:
I’m interested in your consulting services but don’t see a way to contact you from the description. Please advise,
thanks
Look in my recent videos and you'll see contact Info in the description.
@@hometheatergurus
Thanks, I found an email address and tried multiple times to send to it, but it kept coming back as undeliverable ☹️
@@healthynutster which video? I'll make sure it's correct.
Elitehomecinema.sales@gmail.com
@@hometheatergurus
Hi:
I don’t remember specifically which video, but I tried it a couple more times. And hopefully it went through. Thanks for the follow up.
What about on wall speakers? The testing on in wall speakers say they are crap for the most part and even 2000-3000$ ones, JBL Syntesis is the only ones ive heard good stuff about in terms of good linear output but they also cost alot.
It depends on the brand but some like Triad have onwalls that match their inwalls and in rooms so you are getting very good performance.
I don’t have an option to do in walls. Room is a 16’x12. I’m thinking towers. All your info is great but it’s either bookshelves on stands or towers
Use what you can. Some options have compromises that can be dealt with if you understand the issues.
I prefer tower and bookshelf speakers because they can actually have frequency responses that have higher upper limits.
I love Hi-Res Audio, so that is important to me. I haven’t seen any in-wall speakers that go above 20 kHz, and Hi-Res Audio needs 40 kHz or higher.
That's not dictated by where it's installed but what tweeter it uses. Get your hearing checked and it's likely you can't hear above 15k depending on age even lower. It's not something most manufacturers care about at all as in reality we can't hear higher than the standard 20k and most not near that. Not saying there may not be some half alien hybrids out there listening to 30k right now. :)
@@hometheatergurus Well, a known Japanese professor (who also composed the soundtrack to the classic anime film AKIRA) proposed the Hypersonic Effect theory.
It states that people still have better enjoyment and feel better quality with higher frequencies, and even if they cannot hear them physically, the enjoyment is enhanced in a subconscious level.
He also made Hypersonic remasters of both the AKIRA film and soundtrack. And they are great.
That said, I still prefer the original 1988 LaserDisc Dolby Stereo 2.0 16/44.1 mix over the 2001 Classic DVD 5.1 24/48 mix, the 2009 Hypersonic 5.1 24/192 mix, or the 2020 Dolby Atmos 7.1 24/48 mix.
To this day, the AKIRA LaserDisc is one of the most phenomenal audio mixes of all time. And it’s just 16/44.1 Dolby Stereo!
@@hometheatergurus Also, it’s super rare to find an in-wall with Hi-Res tweeters.
@@HydraSpectre1138 you need to look at better brands. Good brands have Inwalls with identical drivers to their high end in room options.
how come the pros record audio with such an overdrive?
They sell in walls that are angled so not an issue. No need to frame corner or none of that.
That's discussed in the video although it's rarely at the ideal angle.
What are your thoughts on Dirac vs Audyssey? I’m planning to upgrade my receiver and everyone recommends Dirac over Audyssey.
Before the audyssey editor app I would have said Dirac. Now with the app I actually lean towards audyssey because it has loudness compensation (dynamic eq). Also in a good room with good speakers you will not be Eqing above the modal area anyways unless there's some issue that demands it.
I'll be getting to all of this soon enough on the channel.
Home Theater Gurus with dynamic EQ should you still add house curve? I know it already adds a house curve but should I add an extra one for all volume levels? Also why aren’t you considering MK speakers? They make in walls speakers.
@@Azzy_Mazzy you can definitively eq your own house curve and use dynamic eq too and adjust the off sets to taste.
As for other brands yes there are many good brands of Inwalls out there.
Home Theater Gurus this channel is super helpful man keep it up.
When I think of pros I think of actual pay theaters where they use boxed speakers even the front ones behind the screen.
Most pro cinemas actually use baffle walls which basically use large speakers In very stout wall built so it fits tight to the speakers. baffles. It's basically an Inwall setup on a larger mire robust scale.
@@hometheatergurus Have you watched the behind the screen videos of IMAX theatres and what about those speakers hanging on the side walls of the cineplexes and the speakers hanging over the audience. I am talking about real movie theatres not luxury screening rooms in some rich guy's man cave.
@@michaelbradley7595 yep I've been a member of film - tech for years. Many pro cinema speakers are designed specifically for baffle walls. I've owned many of them myself. The pros of baffle walls are explained in the video. Not all theaters use baffle walls but many of the better ones do for the reasons explained.
they now make in wall speakers that have the angel built into it
They've had them for decades with a few brands but you seldom see them used properly. I mean how many times do you see JBL SCL6 installed flat for mains ( waveguide edge is at 40 degrees BTW) vs how many times you see people use SCL7 for mains which per JBL the 7 is intended as a main to fix the issue with no toe in. They even show the SCL6 vs 7 and how poor its dispersion is across a row when used as a main.
My only quibble is the L and R being outside the screen space. The voice tracking isn’t optimal with this setup and could still be towed with proper framing of baffle wall beforehand if really had the room planned before framing. I admit it’s nit picking but everything when get into the last fine details are tradeoffs or nit picking in general for us truly dedicated in extracting that last 5% possible.
This is a common misconception. When you put them behind a screen that has what most would find a comfortable viewing angle... Let's say 45 degrees. The mains behind it would be less than the minimum spacing and out of tolerance and the sound stage has collapsed and also panning between main and surround sufferers as the space or degrees between them has increased. I've done this myself and the Soundstage is so small compared to placing them in the 53 to 60 degree spacing range. 44 is of course the absolute recommended minimum which I'd aim for 53 as a minimum.
When our content is mastered it's done so in a room that mimics a home theater setup with speakers properly placed. If a voice or sound is meant to be just left of the center at a point that would still be behind a screen it's mixed into both the main and center. This is how they place objects between the speakers.
I cover bed layer placement per Dolby in ep 1.
Wouldn’t it be better to use constant directivity speakers?
Those are often narrow dispersion which has pros and cons. If you want to take advantage of off axis energy need a wide dispersion. A waveguide controls energy and then it drops like a rock past the guide. It really depends on your goals and if you understand how to manipulate reflections properly when using a wide dispersion. I had a client who just finished a room I designed. He has Triad Gold LCR up front. He's had JBL 3677s, 4722s with Be mod, 708, JTR and most recently had JBL HDI3800. His new room with the Triads is the best sounding room he's had to date, he stated this is without a doubt the best. Both He and his calibrator who's calibrated all his rooms felt this way.
I own have built several media labs and studios, with a range of in-wall, tower and elevated monitors for everything from near mixing through mastering mains. No matter who (Meyer Sound, Clark, etc) we have used, I can tell you that even sets of $250K+ in-wall studio Ausperger’s are not even close to even $20K well-chosen “tower” mains. We’ve used ATC, PMC, and other “top” brands of in-wall.
From an engineering standpoint, there are issues with even recessing to wall-parallel any speaker, and true in-walls have other issues that have to be compensated for (at least as well as possible). A true, non-interactive infinite baffle in-wall installation is an oxymoron from my experience. THEORETICALLY, you could geometrically engineer and materials-optimize a wall and monitor unit to work more optimally than what you find in even the most well-known studios- but why make a complex task even more challenging?
Am I missing something?
So every audiophile system is wrong is it? You have talked about the rear wall only - what about reflections from the other 5 walls in the room that interfere with the primary signal. A dry wall will resonate badly at certain frequencies because the cavity of a plaster wall is not designed to work as part of a speaker. Sorry but the ultimate test is the sound and towers kill it for imaging, tone, and soundstage.
It is now through because all movie theater he has only behind screen position to straight to people and I think behind screen should be straight speaker knowing angle
Okay I admit putting your speakers in the wall would actually make it look nice it would bring my room look nicer but I'll tell you this I would not have sound quality whatsoever I mean it's not that they can't make smaller speakers sound as good as bigger speakers it's the fact that when you install a speaker you need to account for it to hit the the guy doesn't seem to know how speakers actually work how sound works I should say and I'm quite frankly if you go online you'll find a lot more people I mean a lot more people telling you that the sound reflects in the back and the sound pushes the front and because of this boxes that were sold for Yamaha and pioneer and all this stuff well they he calls it the crossover but the box itself is the reason why it sounds as good as it does well it's about 75%, but don't listen to me do what you need to that's how I learned be safe out there guys
Please do a video on Double bass array whenever u find time.
This was kinda covered in the room mode episode but I can definitely add it to the list for its own episode.
bass array as in; midbass modules set between the mains and subs frequency? I’ve read a lot on that topic and AVSForum is all over the place, some people saying they’re great, with others saying not only do they ruin imaging but also muddy that oh so critical 40-80hz. I’d love to hear @hometheatergurus’ thoughts!
@@friendlymormon2209 he means bass array as in a standard or double bass array. It's subs at 1/4 points both on the horizontal and vertical plane.
As for mid bass modules I straightened the record on that in episode 18 which is the chest slam Video.
Home Theater Gurus ahh gotcha! Yep between your episode and Dr Toole’s calculator i was inspired to build (very sturdy) platforms to raise my subs to prime y-axis performance. WAF, or FianceéAF in my case, wouldn’t bend on 4 MORE 12inchers in our living room lol
Admittedly that chest hit episode is the only one I haven’t rewatched 2/3 times (REW probably 8+) thanks for clarifying!
@@friendlymormon2209 wow.. Yeah adding 4 MORE 12s to the living room wouldn't go over well in my house either. 😂
Geodesic domes tho 🤔
Why do manufacturers sometimes specifically recommend NOT to toe in speakers?
I've never come across this. The next video covers toe in BTW .
I will say I know sub designers that don't understand modal behavior in a room. That said there's no doubt speaker manufacturers that really don't understand room acoustics. Many of them hire out the speaker and crossover design. Be even those guys don't have to understand how to properly setup and room and speakers. They're designing based on measurements.
It's like subs, you can build awesome subs and be well known and be oblivious to modal behavior in a room. The two do not in any way go together. You'll see this when we start designing subs.
@@hometheatergurus Thank you, looking forward to that! Dali (well renowned speaker manufacturer in Europe) does this. This is what their manuals say: The speakers are designed to meet our wide dispersion principle, so they should not be angled towards the listening position, but be positioned parallel with the rear wall. By parallel positioning, the distortion in the main listening area will be lowered and the room integration will be better. The wide dispersion principle also ensures that sound is spread evenly within a large area in the listening room.
@@isak6626 these are mains? Parallel to the rear wall would mean the mains face each other.
As for wide dispersion, speakers like domes have always had very wide dispersion.. This isn't anything special. Now the quality of the off axis and how it compares to the on axis is what's important.
The wording in their set up you posted kinda threw up some flags So I searched some of their responses. They have some good speakers but also have some poorly designed ones.
It's not uncommon for very expensive speakers thar are beautiful to not sound as well as they should for the price. All of the ones tested below are poorly designed with inaccurate on axis and poor off axis.
See the episode I did on what makes a good speaker good. Episode 4.
www.soundandvision.com/content/dali-euphonia-surround-speaker-system-measurements
@@hometheatergurus Yes, for the mains. The have a proper diagram as well, just not the best English :D
Ok, thank you for these. So what is the difference between dispersion an on/off-axis response? I guess the two are connected.
@@isak6626 off axis is a measurement taking off axis. Dispersion is basically the same thing. Having a good off axis or wide off axis "should" me na the off axis resemble a the on axis..
But that's not always the case. A manufacture will often claim wide dispersion even if the off axis is crap as in the link I posted above. Sure it's wide but it's not good. But they'll still market it as such. As I mentioned above wide dispersion isn't rare, but good dispersion with good off axis is definitely less common but that's what really makes a speaker superior to another.
Did someone say subs?
I heard that too... 😜
This is cherrypicking, and the conclusion is not supported by known literature. You do not mention the negatives.
-Cabinet of inwalls are small, not giving allot of volume.
-Cabinet quality is not rigid. Thin materials (to increase volume), sometimes even plastic.
-Your wall is now a (terrible) resonator, as the speaker is per design fixed to the wall.
-lower freq. (also above cut off) is often lacking, because of the volume of the speaker and the volume (lack of) behind the speaker
-most people do not start with end game speakers, upgrading is a big hassle
-tuning the setup (relocate or move speakers), is impossible
-in walls are farther away from the listener, increasing reflections and decreasing volume
Also, listening to live music, the artist is never inside the wall. Its not that unatural to our ears to have the source being in the room. The reflections can be handled.
Ive been at high end shows for 20 years, and several high end systems at home. Ive never heard an in wall system beat an normal system. That includes triad, demonstrated by triad.
In walls is good for near field listening, therefore sometimes used in studios. But some use baffel walls to have the best of two worlds. Then u can seperate the speaker from the wall, and have the speaker size u want.
I use expensive in walls in my living room, and have around 20 revels in ceilings around the house. In the home cinema I use active high end speakers where the cabinet is filled with sand, I have no idea how anyone would claim inwalls is better. I would have changed in a heartbeat (saving allot of money).
Those negatives don't exist if done properly. DRywall is very dense and denser than many cabinets. The speakers are crossed to subs so the cavity isn't tuning the speakers bottom end. Speakers in a wall may be a foot further away but gain a lot of added increase in bass due to the baffle wall effect, no sound can wrap behind it so it's all forced forward therefore they have more output than the in room counterpart with more dynamics. Sand BTW makes a cab smaller and changes the manufacturers tuning.
I'm not sure how artist are in the wall using an inwall. That's a new one but inwalls don't do that and would be magic if they could. They should create a huge sound stage than fills the room. Inwalls have the same reflections to deal with as inrooms except of course SBIR. This video isn't saying inwalls will automatically sound better just that inwalls are misunderstood, they have benefits that are substantial but yes you can't tweak and do have some drawbacks.
@@hometheatergurus Drywall is dense, but not stiff enough (in the axis that matters, over a large area). Try hitting your drywall with your hand between the staggers, a real hollow sound. A drywall with an inwall speaker is a large resonator.
A fot away? My speaker elements (!) are 5-6 foot away from the front wall (where an inwall would have been). Moving them back 5-6 feet (if possible) would for sure give me more reflections. They are of course disconnected from the floor for the same reason as above. And there is no way you can stop sound from the back box of a in wall. Its a well known issue custom installers have to deal with all the time (sound leak to adjecent room). Most in walls are surprisingly light. The only thing that stops sound is mass, decoupling and weight. In walls have very little of that. For my in-walls, I made a large thick MDF cabinet (probably 2x the weight of inwalls with box), and fixed them with rubber fittings to decouple. Used 2x drywwall on the other side to increase mass, and I still hear them better than in-room speakers.
Artist in the wall might be a new one. But think about it. A guitar player (or vocalist) would sit on a stage, and the sound will reflect of the front wall. Does that sound strange or bad? Of course not, that sound is what your ears would expect. Its psychoacoustics. What makes or breakes the sound is the acoustic in the room, not if the source of sound is the wall or not.
The (one) acoustic plus for in walls can be fixed. The plus for in-rooms cannot be fixed with in-walls. Therefore it is not a correct conclusion that one should go for in walls because they by design have the best sound quality. They do not. Does of course not mean that it is impossible to make in-walls sound good. They have come a long way, but still can not overcome known physics. ☺️
No dj
Dj
Dj
Speakers should be heard not seen.
🤣🤣🤣
In-walls are better yeah? Say wifes....
I have rear ported speakers, would there be any benefit in plugging the rear ports and putting them in a baffle wall? I always assumed this would massively boost the bass response as all hifi guys say you should have the speakers out a few feet from the wall because of bass boost
All they're doing by moving them out is altering the sbir point and reflection points. Next to a wall you actually have more bass because of boundary gain. We eq the modal area and manipulate the reflections how we want them. It comes down to understanding the science to achieve our goal vs just moving stuff around a room.
As for rear ported yes you can play around with that. It will change the tune as you'll seal the enclosure but crossed to a sub it will often be fine. I know guys who've done this with jbl 3 series.
Home Theater Gurus thanks, sent you an email with a video link wanted your opinion with what I am working with
Think I am going to build a baffle wall this weekend 😬 will plug the ports on my svs primes and in they go
@@Stevo19801 I need to go find your video. Been busy this week and forget to look.