Even as a native Arabic speaker, I had some difficulty pronouncing the right sound of the letter. I only became aware when learning Qura'an from an imam. I still remember him telling me that I did not push my tongue against my molars enough. You brought some heartwarming memories, when you mentioned that it's not a strong 'd' sound.
He reminds me of Muslims who go on to learn Islam from non Muslim ( and non arab) orientalist professors in western universities(Havard, Yale etc.). They speak with such authority, that to the untrained mind ;like myself, it sounds like absolute truth.....BUT wouldn't be able to hold up to scrutiny to a seasoned scholar or student of knowledge of Islam. This doesn't mean they aren't sincere, but the source of their knowledge is so flawed and biased, its hard to not be influenced by it. Knowledge of arabic is in extension knowledge of islam so your teachers matter a lot too. Imaam Muhammad bin Sireen (rahimahullaah) said: - “Verily, this knowledge is Religion. So look into (i.e. investigate) whom you take your Religion from.”
@@sully1814Arabic is strongly related to Islam, so if the non Muslim is not Arabic, that’s makes it even worse as they depend on translations and cannot interpret the original text themselves.
@@sully1814Arabic is the language Islam has been transmitted to us in our era. Many of those professors they learn from are not Arab, Arabic speakers or Arab linguists. Not all Muslim scholars are Arabs, but they’re all highly proficient in the sciences of Arabic language. As a non Arabic speaker, I know that no matter how much I learn, if I never devote time to the language, I’ll always be scratching only the surface of deen.
@@coha348 here are passages from the book ri3âyah by Makkî b. Abî Tâlib al-Kaysî the famous scholar of tajweed in the fourth century wrote the earliest tajweed book in our hands. Was by consensus of scholars one of the best scholars in history in regards to Quran recitations. First for ضاد و ظاء والضاد يشبه لفظها بلفظ الظاء لانهما من الحروف الاطباق ومن الحروف المستعلية ومن الحروف المجهورة ولو لا اختلاف المخرجين وما في الضاد من الاستطالة لكان لفظهما واحد ولم يختلف في السمع Here he says they don't differ in hearing meaning (ضاد ظاء) and their pronunciation is similar to zhâ Now about طاء ،دال الدال تخرج من مخرج الطاء المذكور والدال حرف قوي لانه مجهور شديد كالطاء ولو لا التسفل والانفتاح اللذان في الدال لكانت طاء Here he says if there were not for dal that the back of tongue and is low it would be طاء Now let's look at sibawayhi ولولا الإطباق لصارت الطاء دالاً، والصاد سيناً، والظاء ذالاً، ولخرجت الضاد من الكلام، لأنه ليس شيءٌ من موضعها غيرها Here he is saying that طاء is the heavy form of dâl and sâd the heavy form of sîn and so on
@@coha348 our scholarship is indeed deeper but this doesnt mean that our modern pronunciation which was spread in colonial times the correct one. It is well known that in history a false pronunciation has spread among Egypt . nowadays the dialect overwrites the correct pronunciation. There are still madrasah which teach the correct one and was taught in my country but nowadays they forced the false one upon us. I translated some passages from the scholars here in other comments
that's the worse, those who grow learning the language only by their parents dialect, not even knowing to write nor read and then speak as if they have the keys to the language, especially this guy who shares orientalist propaganda
I would like to thank you for the extensive work that you did for this video, from research to recording to all that is in-between, may Allah ﷻ reward you greatly for this work.
JazakAllah Khairan teacher! I wrote you an email right after I saw this video and you explained it nicely. Thank you for making a whole video for better understanding.
As a Shariah student, the amount of studying and examinations for our pronunciations is insane, with an incredible amount of detail, even for first year students. Then one guy comes along, and Arabs of my own blood who speak the same tongue believe him. It's insanity.
That's because people don't take knowledge from the right persons anymore. Nowadays all you need is a camera and speak in front of an audience, and anyone will eat up what you're saying.
@grotesqburlesk The pronunciation of Arabic letters is a field of study passed from mouth to mouth for 1400 years, it's not a Wikipedia article of a non Arabic speaker
@@grotesqburlesk Papers are meaningless without evidence. Approximately 1400 years ago, the study and teaching of the Makharij was established and extensively researched. To accept such information, we need astronomical evidence. Papers may exist, but I can tell you they lack solid evidence. They're mostly based on theories. We have evidence to support our claims. They lack it.
Almost every muslim since the Prophet a.s. knew the Fatiha. And every Fatiha anyone knows can be traced straight to Him a.s. In the last word of the noble surah, which is emphasised and stretched, there is a ض. You can't say that everyone got it wrong at some point and all of a sudden it changed sounds. From Morocco to China? No way. The deen and Qur'an have been preserved, Alhamdulillah.
now alhamdulillah from Argentina to Siberia too. How hard would it have been to go to a madrasah to check your pronunciation though - even small villages in India and Malaysia have teachers who can say ض. You dont need to go to Harvard to find out how
@@abz4852 like every muslims reads it 5x a day too... so really.... the guy could just be a plant wallahualam. with nas daily being a plant i am not surprised by anything anymore
First of all, a thousand thanks for such an informative video. You indeed have such valuable sources and insights. When I first heard this about ض, I really thought "there are weirder sounds in Arabic". So I am really happy to learn more about this topic. But, there is a big BUT... I think there is a bunch of problems with your video that I couldn't ignore. To start with, 1. I think it is quite aggresive and misrepresenting to call "false information" a video that does not claim to be the ultimate truth on this topic and that actually brings an actual scholarly refutable discussion on the origin of ض. This could be "a misconception" or "a mistake", but false information sounds like an strong accusation. 2. The guy says "If you've ever spoken about Arabic to a native speaker, then you may have heard that... It's the only language in the world with that sound: ض. At least, that's what a lot of people will tell you". This does NOT mean that he is claiming that this is an official statement or even a scholar statement from Arabic scholars. It is a claim that you truly hear from native speakers from different countries (I personally have and I just considered it a popular unverifiable belief). From 2:13 to 5:23 you are actually arguing against native Arabic speakers who claim what you are debunking, however you depict them as the conclusions of this guy, which you clearly saw he does not believe. 2. 5:45 Again, the video is not claiming this to be true, but it's paraphrasing what misinformed native speakers replicate. It's not a basic premise from the video. 3. 7:12 I think here we come in the realm of confusing articulatory categories and, again, confusion of what are the premises. "Heavy d" is not a precise category in phonetics or phonology and the discussion gets confusing with imprecise sound descriptions. I don't find a part where you make clear if there is a difference between phrayngealized and "heavy". The issue is that almost every website on Tajweed about "heavy letters" says that ض is a heavy letter, but you are saying that ض is not a "heavy d". Your video is not clear at all about what is "heavy" from an articulatory perspective so we have to guess if you agree or not with the idea of "heavy=pharyngealized" or if the sound in question is indeed heavy or not (independently of its other features). I also think you probably misunderstand what he means with "ض is a plosive sound". It sounds at the beginning like you're saying that he says that ض is the same /d/ (د) and that is clearly not true. He is merely building the features of ض, starting with its articulation mode and saying that those sounds share this feature. 4. 10:00 This part kind of works as a support for the video you're critizing. Its idea is that the modern pronunciation of ض as [dˤ] is not the original classical pronunciation. But you don't teach how to, according to you, correctly interpret the chart he showed! 5. 10:25 I don't think that his production of ض is intended to be accurate. You're just correcting his pronunciation but not addressing why ض is not [dˤ]. 6. 15:40 And here we come to the unverifiable unprovable tradition that sustains that a sound hasn't changed just because the tradition says so. I think this could be true but "because our tradition" is not an proper academic argument. Now my question is, where are the palatograms showing the proper Qur'anic pronunciation you are defending? It would be good that you provided very briefly an articulatory description of the the so-called authentic Qur'anic pronunciation in terms of modern linguistics after the quotes from the sources cited by the guy instead of repeating what they said, at the end this is a discussion about western phonetics applied to Arabic. I found very interesting when you said that the description of ض as a fricative is correct and that the articulation as lateral is also accurate... And your video about ض insists that it is articulated as a lateral, which is incredibly interesting because you are not pronouncing a lateral sound when you pronounce ض. Liquids are salient sounds because of its friction and it's not like you confuse a lateral with a plosive if your language has both distinctive sounds. I even wonder what you understand as a lateral consonant...
@placeholdernm I think this fragment is confusing because he's arguing the same as the other guy: that ض was not a plosive in Quranic times. But the description he makes of the supposed real quranic sound of ض is also confusing and doesn't match the way he actually pronounces most of the time. He also mixes phonetic production with recitation techniques like qalqala, which could contribute to the argument if he actually understood the point of the video he's critisizing...
Pray for the Oppressed اَللّٰهُمَّ أنْجِ الْمُسْتَضْعَفِيْنَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِيْنَ Allāhumma anji-l-mustaḍʿafīna mina-l-mu’minīn. O Allah! Save the weak among the believers. (Bukhārī 3386) ♥️♥️♥️
I wanna point out that when he said that dad is *considered* the rarest sound, he doesn’t mean in the rarest occurring sound in Arabic rather it’s the rarest sound cross-linguistically ie. it is said to only be in Arabic
In the same vein, when he means “a rarer sound”, he’s referring to an older different pronunciation of dad that is cross linguistically rarer, not that it’s not used anymore
this video was like a jewel amongst jewels, but rather, this whole channel is like a jewel amongst all the stones May Allah bless and put barakah and keep the reward and knowledge flowing. ameen.
Letter [ض] is unique because it is the most difficult letter to pronounce in arabic. According to some source that i got, it's said something like Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the only person who could pronounce it correctly, or something like Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the most fluent person in pronouncing this letter. Letter [ض] is pronounced while both left and right side of your tounge is touching with the left and right upper molars. Instead of [D], i think the sound is somewhat closer to [L]. Because, despite your tip of your tounge also touches the back of the upper incisors, the emphasis is actually on the side tounge with upper molars, unlike [D] where the emphasis is on the tip of the tounge with the back of the upper incisors. That's why it has some similarity with [L] because in both case the tip of your tounge touches the back of the upper incisors but there's no emphasis on it.
@@sereysothe.a then, the next statement it is, Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the most fluent in pronouncing it. It's been a long time, so i barely remember what the actual sentence. Also, from my experience learning the Arabic letters especially the Qur'an, each letter indeed has a specific way of how you should pronounce it. So i think it's possible for someone or some group being unable to pronounce it the way it's supposed to be. I mean, isn't that just how a dialect is born?
I think the issue with the Arabic language in linguistics is its historical ties to the religion of Islam. Many Muslims believe Arabic hasn't evolved and believe Classical Arabic and MSA are identical when the fact is they're different and the language did evolve as languages do naturally. It is impossible to talk about Arabic from a secular linguistic perspective without some Muslims saying their belief in the language hasn't changed since the Quran was written. I'm not an Arab, nor a Muslim or know the Arabic language so I might be wrong here but reading the comments I'm confident that what I'm saying is correct.
Your right on this one. Even Classical Arabic was constantly evolving during the medieval era and this is something i noticed being a native speaker and reader of Classical texts. There was this professor who challenged his student to recite poetry lines and he will determine from which period it's from. MSA took a huge turn by adapting foreign usages and constructions and if medieval philologist listened to it they won't call it Fus'ha. But all of this doesn't change the fact that all of this are one language. Even native speakers of dialect especially here in Arabia can understand much of the Qur'an while being illiterates like my grandfathers for example. But I think what disturb people by these claims is that it challenges the tradition of Tawātur and conserving of Qur'an recitation.
In Iran in the Ilam province there is a small Arabic dialect where they say ض different depending on where it comes in the word. The word like ضعيف it’s like ر and ع together and in the middle of a word it’s ل and ع and at the end it’s like ض
linguist in training, classical arabic student... youre a great teacher imo. very well explained. no insults, objective. straight to the point. thanks, brother.
Jazak Allah Khair. Amazing video as always. I recall seeing that video you responded to a few weeks back and I knew there was issues with it. Alhamdulilah for this break down
I remember when I spent my school holidays in Algiers (Capital of Algeria), I often heard people say "دروك" which means "now" instead of "ضروك". thanks for the clarification and jazaka ALLAH Soubhanahu wa Taala khairane.
Yeah i live in Algiers and you're right , although this word is originally used in the west of algeria and the Algiers version would be something like " دوك / ضوك " ( but since Algiers is the capital you find all sorts of pronunciations from all wilayas ) Also what i found interesting is that old dialects of northern africa and andalus used to pronounce certain letters differently when speaking , like switching a ط with a ت ، or ض ظ with a د ، the ص being pronounced a س ...etc , it generally feels like a softer arabic
@@lynackhilou4865 it would seem that physiologically speaking, there would be a tendency to save energy which would give a lightness of the vocal flow. the language that we learn - I am talking about the mother tongue - we do not learn it in books so we do not associate it with signs or symbols - letters and graphics - so its use should consume less energy and be more fluid but it nevertheless remains understandable and the basis of all verbal exchange and all communication.
MSA and CA are both called fusha but they are really not the same. How can they be the same. Language depends so much on the environment and culture and modern culture is obviously nothing like how they lived in Arabia 1500 years ago. Yes grammar is 99% taken from CA but still it's not entirely the same age especially if you look at vocabulary there are differences. I'm not saying they are different languages but it's just a completely different context that leads to the words you choose etc...
They have different definitions and newer words and vocabulary! but it's not enough to be categorized as very different. based on the same criteria, Qur'an having completely different style, very different way of reading the text , gigantic novelty of words and constructions and expressions and more... The difference between Qur'an and Arabic before it is much more significant than difference between the difference between classical and modern Arabic , no one argue though Qur'an is entirely something else than Arabic dialects itself
No one is arguing this. What's being argued is whether the pronunciation has been preserved between classical Arabic and MSA which it certainly has. It still remains identical.
MSA and CA are basically the same thing except Classical Arabs used more vocab while people who speak MSA dont use as many words, they are just sitting in the linguist books but they are essentially just the same thing..
May Allah reward you. As a language lover I would make a distinction between Classical Arabic and "Proper Arabic" which you used interchangeably. Just to ensure that it is clear that there is nothing improper about dialects being dialects seeing as Arabic has that unique factor, that it has the Fusha variety and the different Ammiya varieties, and there is nothing improper about them even if they are not the same as classical Quranic Arabic. Salam alaikum sheikh
Dua for 🇵🇸: اللَّهُمَّ أَصْلِحْ أُمَّةَ مُحَمَّدٍ اللَّهُمَّ فَرِّجْ عَنْ أُمَّةِ مُحَمَّدٍ اللَّهُمَّ ارْحَمْ أُمَّةَ مُحَمَّدٍ ‘O Allah! Improve (help) the state of the Ummah of Muhammad. O Allah! Grant ease to the Ummah of Muhammad. O Allah! Have mercy on the Ummah of Muhammad. Feel free to share it🌷
Despite his mistakes, I commeend him for his effort. He is of the Lebanese living in the diaspora just as I am a Palestinian/Jordanian in the diaspora, and the common dialect spoken from the Levantine diasporas are the northern-Levantine dialects where Daad and a MSA 3 are less prominent. Regardless, beautiful video
here are passages from the book ri3âyah by Makkî b. Abî Tâlib al-Kaysî the famous scholar of tajweed in the fourth century wrote the earliest tajweed book in our hands. Was by consensus of scholars one of the best scholars in history in regards to Quran recitations. (Edited for proper translation) First for ضاد و ظاء والضاد يشبه لفظها بلفظ الظاء لانهما من الحروف الاطباق ومن الحروف المستعلية ومن الحروف المجهورة ولو لا اختلاف المخرجين وما في الضاد من الاستطالة لكان لفظهما واحد ولم يختلف في السمع والظاء حرف يشبه لفظه في السمع لفظ الضاد…. الدال تخرج من مخرج الطاء المذكور والدال حرف قوي لانه مجهور شديد كالطاء ولو لا التسفل والانفتاح اللذان في الدال لكانت طاء And Dhâd (žhâd,ضاد) its pronounciation is similar to the pronunciation of ظاء. Because both of them are from the letters of itbâq(velarization) and from the musta'liyyah letters(raising the back of the tongue) and from the majhûr letters(voiced, vibration of vocal cords). If it were not for the different articulation points and in žhâd be something from istitâlah, their pronunciation would be one and the same and they would not have been different in hearing(sound). And Zhâ ظاء is a letter similar in its pronounciation in hearing(sound) to the pronunciation of ضاد Dâl is pronounced from the mentioned articulation point of طاء. Dâl is a Qawî(strong) letter because it is majhûr(voiced) and shadeed(explosive) like طاء. If it were not for tasafful (lowering of the tongue from the hanak(palate of the mouth) and infitâh(not itbâq, not echoing the sound in the mouth) if it were not for these two characteristics in dâl it would have been طاء. All are from the corresponding section from the book Ri3âyah by Makkî. Sîbawayhi ولولا الإطباق لصارت الطاء دالاً، والصاد سيناً، والظاء ذالاً، ولخرجت الضاد من الكلام، لأنه ليس شيءٌ من موضعها غيرها And if it were not for itbâq(velarization) طاء would have turned in to dâl. Sâd into sîn, ظاء into ذال, and ضاد would be out of speech because there is nothing in its place other than it.
You touched on a few of the early scholars of the Arabic language. Could you possibly make a series of videos on the contribution of Muslim scholars to the field of linguistics? Like history in general, this topic is ignored in the typical History of Linguistics course. Thank you!
He said in one of his videos, that he had issues learning it since he was born outside(american lebanese?), it isn’t his mother tongue, but he has Lebanese blood through his mother i believe? He struggled to learn arabic
@@abdullahkandrani Yes, he was raised in the West, just like me. But we are native Arabs, even though our Arabic tongue is not as refined as that of our parents.
Hi, I am highly interested in Arabic, as a Muslim from the subcontinent (Pakistan/India), and over here we have all kinds of rampant pronunciational differences from the Arab recitation, as the systems for teaching and passing on qur'anic recitation aren't as firm and rooted as they may be in parts of the Arab world. Hence, the Qur'anic education I got was a good one no doubt (and i thank my ustaad deeply, may Allah bless him), but I think many phonetic details of it may have been flawed. On the other hand, I have a deep interest in linguistics *and* language learning, and enjoy learning several languages to a deep level, along with reading about technical aspects of languages, and the technical side of phonetics fascinates me a lot. I also am kinda a personal fan of that creator of this video, which I had seen before, but I recognize how often the Muslim/Non-western perspective is used to push out traditional history. That all being said though, I would like to ask- how does the traditional view you are presenting, the one where ض has the exact fricative pronunciation, pressurized exactly as you stated in the video- how exactly can the evidence of the lateral (L-like) quality be explained? Like the Spanish "ld" for Arabic ض (ok, in this case it may be a case of Andalusian dialect of that time, fair), or the southern Indian languages having *Ramalan*. These things seem non-negligible to me, and it's not that I "deny" your explanation. I am genuinely curious to the answers behind these facts. Thank you very much if you take the time to read and reply, deeply appreciated ✨
As a Muslim interested in linguistics, I want to make some points: So in short: Dad may be (and most probably) prounced as a different sound than today and from the Qur'anic Arabic. But this doesn't imply a distortion in the Qur'anic transmission and the certainty that the Prophet (pbuh) pronounced it as such. It simply means the popular pronounciation at that time wasn't the pronounciation of the Prophet's (pbuh). Explaining why: (I am trying to use a non-techincal lang. I am overlysimplifying things without corrupting it do not get offended because I have skipped longer, more technical and more complicated parts that just means the same thing JazakAllahuKheir) First of all his basic premise wasn't the one explained in this video, he wasn't saying because Arabic is the language of dad it should be the only lang. that has this sound, but other lang. have it so it should have an older sound. He was trying to stregthen his presentation by mentioning this information. I agree that it may not be a 1000 year norm and actually in this video it has great points why noy but it has nothing to do with his points of dad's possible older pronounciation. And I also think that in Clasical Arabic dad has the pronounciation that he mentioned but it doesn't nullify or damage the Qur'anic tradition in any aspect. How? This may have several reasons, at the Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) time the letter jim was newly evolved into a pronounciation and some other dialects were still using the older "original" sound of this sound change actually explains why jim is not a sun letter. Because sun letters are dental, alveolar or post-alveolar sounds even though jim is a post alveolar sound it is not a sun letter. Becasue the older version was a velar sound and when the sound change happened the interaction of the sound with the other sounds didn't change thus keeping it a moon letter. Today after 1400 years jim has advanced in its phonetic cycle and is pronounced as a sun letter in dialects that pronounce it as a post-alveolar sound. We can make a similar assumption in the letter dad. The Prophet (pbuh) certainly pronounced it as the Qur'an teachers today teach no doubt. But this can be the Prophet's (pbuh) dialect and the actual older sound being a pharyngealized voiced alveolar lateral-fricative and that explains why dad doesn't have qalqalah even though it is predominantly prounced as a "heavy dal" (I know that the Qur'anic dad is not a plosive and should not have qalqalah, but qalqalah is a must in speaking clear arabic used in fusha which the letter pronounced as a plosive so we can say that it has not advanced enough in its phonetic cycle yet as in the case of jim.) And I am upset that all the very important linguistic evidences like Spanish loanwords are discarded. Especailly Spanish loanwords support the point that dad's older pronounciaion is different as the word meaning judge or jurist "al-Qadi" is imported as alcalde with the letter combination . Nearly all languages that borrow words with dad consistantly re-interpret the sound as ld or even l sometimes which is more closer to the sound that he mentions not to the Qur'anic sound.
What? He said that ض used to sound like "i" or "y" and in Spanish the closest sound is surely "d" not those he mentioned. Do you even speak Spanish? 😅 Your conclusion is as bad as the one who has been refuted.
@@Omroqurba Assalamu aleikum. No, I do not speak Spanish but I think you misunderstood it. He said and I quote "...and sure enough sibawayh agrees he wirtes instead that dad is pronounced quote: "between the first part of the side of the tongue and the adjacent molars." sibaweyh writes quote: "among the limp consonants - the fricatives - are among others the dad" he is telling us explicitly that dad is not a plosive it is instead classified with all the other fricative consonants that is weird right? The side of the tongue hitting the adjacent molars that's "ALMOST" like the letter y /j/." so ya akhi he is saying that the writing implies the sound must be LIKE and he is sayin in the ENTIRE video that he thinks it is pronounced as a pharyngilized voiced alveolar lateral-fricative and not a y sound which is a voiced palatal approximant.
@@Omroqurba And one of his main point was the re-interpretaiton of dad as ld so that's why he finds it weird that if we were to pronounce it as the sibawayh explained it we would have a y sound corresponding in Spanish not a ld so you have just proved my point thanks
You forgot something. He described ض as being plosive. That shows that his understanding of the letter‘s nature is incorrect. Then he said that these older sources describe ض as fricative etc. But ض is fricative now like it was back then. And they tongue positioning remained the same. But he started from a lack of understanding of the letter and assumed that the classical description of the letter is distinct from how Arabs pronounce it nowadays. Then he established his own interpretation of the classical description and came up with a completely different sound which was not known and has no letters describing
I don't know why westerners especially Americans speak so confidently when they talking about things they know nothing about or just read in Google. I remember watching a video talking about " why pork is not eaten by 2 billion people" and the guy claimed at some point in the video that " people in the middle east decided not to eat pig because it's dirty animal" making it sound like religion had nothing to do with it even doe earlier in the vid he mentioned religions making pork forbidden.
watching through your video, (great breakdown btw), it looks like you're more or less agreeing with him as regards what the correct sound of ض should be. putting aside all the other bits, you both describe it as a fricative, with slight pressure on the sides so air can escape. the difference between your pronunciation and his is 1. him not relaly getting the sound quite right and 2. linguistically minor enough that they both would fall under the same symbol (ɮˤ).
JazakAllahukhair for all your effort. I learned that the ancient Egyptians probably had the letter ض. But til today I struggle to pronounce it correctly.😔 hope I'll find a female teacher soon. InshaAllah
You really did him dirty teacher by complimenting his non native arabic, the man is a a̶r̶a̶b̶i̶c̶ r̶a̶i̶s̶e̶d̶ lebanese 😭 Replies made clear the guy despite being of arabic lebanese decent, didnt grow up speaking arabic therefore isnt native.
If you heard him speaking Arabic for more than 3 seconds you'll know he's not a native speaker I just recently saw a video where he said حمزة instead of همزة
to be honest his video was great and informative.. he made few mistakes BUT who doesn't!. his reference to the Tihami tribe is very true as I saw a documentary on Aljazeera doing interviews with the tribe pronouncing the ض exactly as he said
ppl are to confused the guy didn’t bring islam into it at all all he’s saying is there’s likely variant of ض pronunciation just like in the usa r is pronounced different than the uk. fus7a is based on one dialects pronunciation and a different dialect wouldn’t mean changing standard fus7a
The video doesn't present Arabic being called لغة الضاد as the reason why we must assume that it used to be pronounced differently in the past, or that's not how I interpreted it at least. He and linguists believed ض was pronounced differently because of the other "evidence" he showed, and لغة الضاد is just something that that would explain if it were true. And "لغة الضاد" meaning Arabic being the only language with ض isn't a conclusion he made based on just the phrase itself, but it's a common "fact" shared along with the name. In fact, when you search up لغة الضاد, the first result claims that Arabic is the only language with the sound. He was just making reference to what is commonly thought. Great video otherwise and this doesn't really have much to do with the main conclusion, but I just felt you spent too much time on these "logical fallacies" which I think make complete sense.
2:26 - 3:25 in my school there was a arabic day and we sang a nasheed in arabic that had a verse that said: "لغتي لغة الضاد" (my language, the language of Dhaad) and i also had to do a speech about the language of arabic and it had "the language of Dhaad" (idk what it exactly said but it had something like that in arabic)
Well, to be fair, we sometimes do need to see how the schoolar of other culture or religion background for new perspective. No need to believe it, but no need to reject it at all to
In my region the letter ض is pronounced as a heavy v, dialect pronunciation differ by region and should not be taken as the ancient/original version of the letter, because it is a deviation from the original, that developed through the years due to isolation.
He isn't making the claim that you're "debunking" at the beginning ("language of dād = unique sound"); he says it's _what people say about it._ edit: Also, the "rarest sound" means "rare cross-linguistically", not "rarest among Arabic words". edit 2: Also, the comparison he makes with dal is to point out that it is different; you're "correcting" the same claim you make! edit 3: Also also, dād IS a plosive in MSA, and MSA is not the same as classical Arabic-this is orthodox! edit 4: "There is no constriction in the throat..." → [shows constriction in the throat] 😐 edit 5: "Rarer" has nothing to do with whether people teach it today. He's talking about interlinguistic rarity, again. + the question about how we can know is rhetorical; he's not actually saying we can't know. ...maybe I should make a response video.
MSA and Classical Arabic are *not* the same. In fact, the first one is only called "Modern Arabic" in order to distinguish it from "Classical Arabic". Many elements of MSA are from a Classical perspective simply wrong, especially newspaper Arabic is a catastrophe from that perspective. And many Classical elements are not existent in MSA.
@@UploadsUnlimited No, they are exactly the same, but only the style differs. The ancient Arabs were characterized by fluency and brevity in speech, and they did not add much that would be considered in their view to be mere useless padding.
@@mshiv5488 "but only the style differs". No, there are differences in grammar, no matter. As I said: Many elements of MSA are from a Classical perspective simply wrong. Whoever denies that does not know what he's talking about.
Studying tajwid and then hearing him describing dhad with linguistics term got me over my head Until you just basically explain it in the tajwid terminology that I finally understand he was referring to the same dhad we use everyday Thank you brother Barakallahu fik
In Egypt we pronounce ج nearly always as G, for the j sound we write چ (explicitly in normal dialect, when reading the Quran it's back to the correct pronunciation in the video) There's not really a rule tho so as long as the majority of a community understands what you mean it just becomes the norm in that region. P.S: I NEVER heard anyone say that Arabic is the language of ض. So besides scholars, even normal people don't agree to that
I put this comment under his video: is worth mentioning that we can confirm with a high degree of knowledgeable confidence how the letters sounded, at least during the time of the beginning of Islam. This is because the Arabs, and later the Muslims, transmitted the Quran orally and were diligent in preserving its pronunciation and the articulation of the letters (مخارج الحروف). They established this as a field of study, passed down from generation to generation.
here are passages from the book ri3âyah by Makkî b. Abî Tâlib al-Kaysî the famous scholar of tajweed in the fourth century wrote the earliest tajweed book in our hands. Was by consensus of scholars one of the best scholars in history in regards to Quran recitations.(Edited for proper translation) First for ضاد و ظاء والضاد يشبه لفظها بلفظ الظاء لانهما من الحروف الاطباق ومن الحروف المستعلية ومن الحروف المجهورة ولو لا اختلاف المخرجين وما في الضاد من الاستطالة لكان لفظهما واحد ولم يختلف في السمع والظاء حرف يشبه لفظه في السمع لفظ الضاد…. الدال تخرج من مخرج الطاء المذكور والدال حرف قوي لانه مجهور شديد كالطاء ولو لا التسفل والانفتاح اللذان في الدال لكانت طاء And Dhâd (žhâd,ضاد) its pronounciation is similar to the pronunciation of ظاء. Because both of them are from the letters of itbâq(velarization) and from the musta'liyyah letters(raising the back of the tongue) and from the majhûr letters(voiced, vibration of vocal cords). If it were not for the different articulation points and in žhâd be something from istitâlah, their pronunciation would be one and the same and they would not have been different in hearing(sound). And Zhâ ظاء is a letter similar in its pronounciation in hearing(sound) to the pronunciation of ضاد Dâl is pronounced from the mentioned articulation point of طاء. Dâl is a Qawî(strong) letter because it is majhûr(voiced) and shadeed(explosive) like طاء. If it were not for tasafful (lowering of the tongue from the hanak(palate of the mouth) and infitâh(not itbâq, not echoing the sound in the mouth) if it were not for these two characteristics in dâl it would have been طاء. All are from the corresponding section from the book Ri3âyah by Makkî. Sîbawayhi ولولا الإطباق لصارت الطاء دالاً، والصاد سيناً، والظاء ذالاً، ولخرجت الضاد من الكلام، لأنه ليس شيءٌ من موضعها غيرها And if it were not for itbâq(velarization) طاء would have turned in to dâl. Sâd into sîn, ظاء into ذال, and ضاد would be out of speech because there is nothing in its place other than it.
The sad thing is that some Muslims were so quick to accept the original video as true and left glowing comments. It's like people are ready to take information concerning their religion (i.e. the oral preservation of the Quran) from literally anyone who has a platform.
Actually the possible older pronouncition doesn't contradict the Qur'anic transmission it just simply means it was generally pronounced as such but the Prophet (pbuh) pronounced it in a different and a more beautiful way
We shouldn't bring religion into the topic if we are going to research it objectively, Proof then belief, not the other way around, in order to avoid bias, again this isn't a matter of religion.
As someone who's studied Makharij, after I watched that video I immediately went to the comments to correct it, but one of your videos is probably more useful than a thousand comments. Jazakallahu khairan. Also the reason I believe he made this mistake is because he is of Lebenese origin, so he seems to have confused the ض in his dialect with the classical ض.
@@Honest_Question I think you meant ظ. This is the only mix up that is considered permitted, scholars from the early part of the last century actually forbade the modern pronunciation of ض (Egyptian ض) for salah. This video is arrogance at its finest.
@@Honest_Question oh btw I just reread your comment properly. Yes you're right , in fact the modern ض used for the Qur'an currently is based off dialectal forms that are plosives.
In Somali we have the sounds of all the Arabic alphabet ا ب ت…except ص ط ز. Not entirely sure if classical Somali uses these letters( I doubt it though); many words are alien today, but can be found in classical poetry. However its written in Roman Alphabet. It probably would be so confusing to a reader if it was written in Arabic,probably easy for Arabic speakers to learn Somali/read. Would love to see it written using Arabic Alphabet. When non Arabic speakers hear Somali they assume it’s Arabic. It has soo many Arabic words too. Made it easy for me to learn the Qur’aan and read Arabic(pronouncing)however, it doesn’t make it easy to learn Arabic PROPERLY as it’s a separate language. But i’m glad pronunciation isn’t hard for us.
Every dialect of Arabic has its own unique pronunciation of each letter, and the origin of Arabic is Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Syria, and thus the original pronunciation should be found in these region. Even Hebrew had sound shifts b-v and w-v and even in the Classical Hebrew period it is recorded that some people of the tribe of Emphraim couldn't pronounce the sh in Shin (ש) in the word Shibboleth since thier diapect lost it. The most conservative Hebrew dialect (more of pronunciation)is Yemeni Hebrew and so the most conservative Arabic dialects is also from the South Arabia region ( Arabia Felix). Modern Hebrew had to be based on Mizrahi (Middle Eastern) Hebrew and Shepardic (Spanish) Jews since they preserve more original pronunciation of words. Infact second generation speakers are changing how words are pronounced. I'm neither a Jew or a Muslim but I am studying both languages for creating a conlang. Ask any English speakers to pronounce a word and you will hear very different pronunciation which can tell you where they come from If he has Arab parents, he is an Arab but didn't learn it as a first language so his pronunciation will be mixed. I don't get why experts get the most disturbed whenever someone comes with a discovery and remember Language is not static but moving unless it wants to die. Everything is in motion. There is also a conflict on how Koine Greek ought to be pronounced. The language of the person speaking affects how they read the letters.
From a purely linguistic point of view, he could be right. A pre-islamic version of ض could have existed and that was my takeaway from his videos. His mistake though was linking the "old" ض and the modern claim that arabic that "arabic is the language of ض" which is a common error, I guess clickbaity titles attract viewers Speaking of which, your title seems a bit harsh, you clarified some of the info but I wouldn't go as far as to claim he made deliberately "false" claims, he's born abroad and gave it his best shot as a linguist (student I believe), and you acknowledged his effort.
How did he give it his best? The least he could've done is contacted a Muslim scholar/ Qur’ān teacher who has studied the classical works and checked with him. To simply echo the quotes of orientalists isn't anyone's "best", its lousy work.
@@Avistyl So? Arabic is undoubtedly the language of the Muslims, for atleast 1400 years now, due to the Qur’ān. If you want to make controversial statements about the language, you should atleast consult a Muslim scholar and have him fact check you. Its not as if Muslim scholars/ students of knowledge are prohibited from speaking to a non muslim.
*sigh* reread what I wrote, there's a reason I said purely from a linguistic point of view. If a pre-islamic version of ض existed, it could have remained. When the Qur'an was revealed there were many dialects, but the recitation was fixed as the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did it and the books detailing the prononciation help in that regard, we also had many who memorized it. The problem is most of you seem too sensitive, I'm a muslim and that video changes nothing. Languages change over time, does that mean the Qur'an changed? Absolutely not, because we had people who memorized it and wrote it down and transmitted the way to recite it. What about pre-islamic times? Or some niche dialect or, or, or... Not everything has to be a jab at Islam, you know? I found the video an attempt to explore an older version of ض and I appreciate it, that's it.
Thank you so much for this thorough explanation. I had a comment on his video pointing out in short that his conclusion was not correct and a little comment war in his comment section on Instagram. Your explanation it out perfectly. Thank you so much, sir.
The modern ض is most definitely a plosive, as it does not have continuous air flow leaving the mouth. This idiot doesn't know what fricative/rikhawah is. Check out Tulaib Zafir´s video on the subject.
it is lmfao, it's literally written in the ipa as /dˤ/ but his definitions are arbitrary because he doesn't have a full grasp of linguistics or phonology as a whole
@@msruag It's not a plosive and that's known among all Qur'an teachers and students, it's literally the most common mistakes, and it's because in many dialects like Syrian and Lebanese and Egyptians people pronounce it as a plosive. The plosive version became more common among normal people, but among Quran learners it's a very known mistake. The wiki ipa descriptions have no authority over how a letter is pronounced as they often take popular pronunciations instead of correct ones. Nobody speaks Arabic natively today (dialects are sublanguages of Arabic), so it makes no sense to use "Arabs" of today as a reference to how a letter in standard Arabic is pronounced. Especially when we have an environment like the Qur'an learning circles where precision on pronouncing the letters correctly is emphasized.
@@johannesziaether3916 The ض as most people pronounce it and how arabic101 is pronouncing it is a plosive, when pronouncing it there is no continuous stream of air leaving the mouth. And in circles of scholars they will use the classical pronunciation which is similar to what was advocated for by human1011
Pakistani/indian muslims have been pronouncing "dad" as normal "z" and or 'd" for a long time but most likely only for casual urdu speach, but simply because it is "ancient" doesnt makes it real, the reasons why i picked example of desis is because they also had learned "dad" from arabs as alot of them stayed in Macca and madina for studies but they only used it most likely for the quran not ALWAYS for casual urdu speach.
Brother you are wrong. This Lebanese guy is right. Listen to Sheikh Albani's video on this subject. There were scholars in Egypt that pronounced dad as fricative. Not as it is pronounced today
It's literally impossible to change, the reason is because of the Quran, as we have a chain of narrations that trace back to the prophet peace and blessings be upon him those are very very strict and especially on the pronunciations of the letters, if you ever gone to a Quran school you'd understand what I mean they'll focus first on pronunciation before memorising
@@baraaw5961for one he named one already, al-Albani. It’s actually a famous scholarly debate, I obviously take the normative opinion but the debate exists.
Moral of the story: If you try to draw conclusions Classical Arabic, with only knowledge of the Lebanese Dialect will lead to complete failure. Also after watching both videos and the written responses, its clear that the main issue is that by "Classical Arabic" Human 1011 meant the Byzantine Arabic (Syria/Lebanon), while Arabic101 means Qur'anic Arabic. . .
The issue is Byzantine Arabic is a post Quranic Arabic development. Arabic came to The Levant as a result of Islamic conquest. Before this they spoke Aramaic (which some Levantine Christians still use today). Any Levantine Arabic differences would be the result of adaptation of Quranic Arabic with their particular dialect of Aramaic. This fact cannot be ignored.
@@wakannnai1 While one language originates from another, that doesn't change the fact that knowledge or information about 1 will not necessarily translate to the other.
What are you saying? 9:00 I’m so confused. So you are disagreeing with him in calling Dhad a plosive sound and… don’t provide any clarification as to why? Dhad in MSA is, in fact, a plosive. It isn’t an opinion, this is a specific sound type with specific manner of articulation. It can be studied and described. You don’t come off as someone who is knowledgeable in phonetics because you lack clearness in your phonetic description.
Thank you, I was so confused there too. I think he’s not actually talking about MSA but rather the completely different pronunciation that Quran reciters use for some reason
Dad in MSA is not a plosive. Just because the wiki ipa says it, it doesn't make it true. The plosive version of Dad is popular nowadays because it's the native sound most Lebanese, Syrian and Egyptian people use, but this doesn't make it the correct description. MSA is the same as classical Arabic, they're the same language, they have the same sounds and the same grammar, they're simply two different styles of speech. Today there are no native standard Arabic speakers (dialects are sublanguages of the Arabic language), so using the popular pronunciation of the letter Dad as a reference just because the people we call "Arabs" today pronounce it that way is totally unreasonable. Especially when we have a much better reference to how Standard Arabic should be pronounced, which are Quran learning centers, where precision is very prioritized when it comes to pronunciation.
@@johannesziaether3916 Source? Neither you nor Arabic 101 have given a single source apart from your gigantic heads. In fact, Arabic 101 described a velarized plosive when talking about his dialect and said that a pharyngealized plosive is wrong… even though both are allophonic. At the very least give your own ipa as to what it is if you don’t trust the wiki ipa. And it’s not “just wiki ipa” pretty much every reliable source has it as an emphatic plosive. MSA and classical arabic are not the same, why would you think that? It’s literally called MODERN standard arabic which is like the opposite of CLASSICAL.
If you look to the science of tajweed you will see that the ض letter is pronounced the same as in modern arabic but with something called تفخيم and with that it fits the definition of sebawey since it’s pronounced from up back of the mouth near the molars and besides that the quran was transferred to as with something called التواتر and its when someone memorizes the whole quran from another person that already memorized it the same way arriving to the prophet pbuh and that what Preserves the reading since the scholars care a lot about the reading which is called tajweed and there is only 10 ways of reading the quran قرآت and with that the pronunciation of the letter ض didn’t actually change and another evidence of that is that allah persevered the quran from changing and with that he persevered the pronunciation since the pronunciation of arabic didn’t change unlike the other languages and with that of course i mean the fusha arabic فصحى not the dialects
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Even as a native Arabic speaker, I had some difficulty pronouncing the right sound of the letter. I only became aware when learning Qura'an from an imam. I still remember him telling me that I did not push my tongue against my molars enough. You brought some heartwarming memories, when you mentioned that it's not a strong 'd' sound.
How ipa has it as a strong d? dˤ
@@M313-u8d it's an oversimplification... IPA isn't exactly "international"
@@SuhbanIo how is it not international, it has every sound/phoneme
@@M313-u8d not the real ض
@@SuhbanIo then what’s the symbol for the real daad
When ustadh drags the CRT tv set into the dars you know we're getting a treat.
😂😂😂 exactly
Yeah, allahumma barik.
Ustadh? Sounds an awful lot like usted
@@nicoruppert4207 what?
@@pubcollize the word ustadh sounds a lot like the Spanish word 'usted'
Note to self: don't learn religion and culture from social media. 😢
what's that have to do with this video
then don't learn religion from this video since TH-cam is social media :P
@@jaisalrw3494exactly! Brilliant point
Right, instead learn it from a biased source on the SAME social media. Jackass...
This is social media and you’re learning though…?
He reminds me of Muslims who go on to learn Islam from non Muslim ( and non arab) orientalist professors in western universities(Havard, Yale etc.). They speak with such authority, that to the untrained mind ;like myself, it sounds like absolute truth.....BUT wouldn't be able to hold up to scrutiny to a seasoned scholar or student of knowledge of Islam.
This doesn't mean they aren't sincere, but the source of their knowledge is so flawed and biased, its hard to not be influenced by it. Knowledge of arabic is in extension knowledge of islam so your teachers matter a lot too.
Imaam Muhammad bin Sireen (rahimahullaah) said: - “Verily, this knowledge is Religion. So look into (i.e. investigate) whom you take your Religion from.”
what do you mean when you said non Arab in brackets ?
@@sully1814 Strange thing to do
Cant really blame him, growing up in a western environment, your options to attain 'ilm are limited.
@@sully1814Arabic is strongly related to Islam, so if the non Muslim is not Arabic, that’s makes it even worse as they depend on translations and cannot interpret the original text themselves.
@@sully1814Arabic is the language Islam has been transmitted to us in our era.
Many of those professors they learn from are not Arab, Arabic speakers or Arab linguists.
Not all Muslim scholars are Arabs, but they’re all highly proficient in the sciences of Arabic language. As a non Arabic speaker, I know that no matter how much I learn, if I never devote time to the language, I’ll always be scratching only the surface of deen.
wow, I think it's very good how objectively you correct him. may Allah reward you
Homie just falls into the same trap as all Western Academics. They underestimate the level of scholarship in the Islamic world. . . by a lot.
Very good point
True
@@coha348 here are passages from the book ri3âyah by Makkî b. Abî Tâlib al-Kaysî the famous scholar of tajweed in the fourth century wrote the earliest tajweed book in our hands. Was by consensus of scholars one of the best scholars in history in regards to Quran recitations.
First for ضاد و ظاء
والضاد يشبه لفظها بلفظ الظاء لانهما من الحروف الاطباق ومن الحروف المستعلية ومن الحروف المجهورة ولو لا اختلاف المخرجين وما في الضاد من الاستطالة لكان لفظهما واحد ولم يختلف في السمع
Here he says they don't differ in hearing meaning (ضاد ظاء) and their pronunciation is similar to zhâ
Now about طاء ،دال
الدال تخرج من مخرج الطاء المذكور والدال حرف قوي لانه مجهور شديد كالطاء ولو لا التسفل والانفتاح اللذان في الدال لكانت طاء
Here he says if there were not for dal that the back of tongue and is low it would be طاء
Now let's look at sibawayhi
ولولا الإطباق لصارت الطاء دالاً، والصاد سيناً، والظاء ذالاً، ولخرجت الضاد من الكلام، لأنه ليس شيءٌ من موضعها غيرها
Here he is saying that طاء is the heavy form of dâl and sâd the heavy form of sîn and so on
this was me anytime i see a non muslim academic making some bogus claim with a phd but they didn’t even know basic arabic
@@coha348 our scholarship is indeed deeper but this doesnt mean that our modern pronunciation which was spread in colonial times the correct one. It is well known that in history a false pronunciation has spread among Egypt . nowadays the dialect overwrites the correct pronunciation. There are still madrasah which teach the correct one and was taught in my country but nowadays they forced the false one upon us. I translated some passages from the scholars here in other comments
10:22 Akh, he is not a non Arab, He is a lebanese born and raised in foreign.
that's the worse, those who grow learning the language only by their parents dialect, not even knowing to write nor read and then speak as if they have the keys to the language, especially this guy who shares orientalist propaganda
If you can’t speak arabic you are not an arab
Yes I guess I like this guy but he does lots of misinformation I used to like@@Omroqurba
I mean yeah, he is definitely not a traditional arab
@@Omroqurbahe actually admit he could't speak arabic properly in another clip
I would like to thank you for the extensive work that you did for this video, from research to recording to all that is in-between, may Allah ﷻ reward you greatly for this work.
JazakAllah Khairan teacher! I wrote you an email right after I saw this video and you explained it nicely. Thank you for making a whole video for better understanding.
جزاك اللہ خیرًا
For shedding light on it
May Allah bless you Ameen 🫂❤️♥️🌹🤲
May Allah reward you for your effort. Love from India🇮🇳
As a Shariah student, the amount of studying and examinations for our pronunciations is insane, with an incredible amount of detail, even for first year students. Then one guy comes along, and Arabs of my own blood who speak the same tongue believe him. It's insanity.
That's because people don't take knowledge from the right persons anymore. Nowadays all you need is a camera and speak in front of an audience, and anyone will eat up what you're saying.
It's not just one guy, there are so many papers on dad's original pronounciation
@grotesqburlesk
The pronunciation of Arabic letters is a field of study passed from mouth to mouth for 1400 years, it's not a Wikipedia article of a non Arabic speaker
@@grotesqburlesk Papers are meaningless without evidence. Approximately 1400 years ago, the study and teaching of the Makharij was established and extensively researched.
To accept such information, we need astronomical evidence. Papers may exist, but I can tell you they lack solid evidence. They're mostly based on theories.
We have evidence to support our claims. They lack it.
@@MZRandom Totally 💯
thank you so much for making this video. May الله be pleased with you.
Almost every muslim since the Prophet a.s. knew the Fatiha. And every Fatiha anyone knows can be traced straight to Him a.s. In the last word of the noble surah, which is emphasised and stretched, there is a ض. You can't say that everyone got it wrong at some point and all of a sudden it changed sounds. From Morocco to China? No way. The deen and Qur'an have been preserved, Alhamdulillah.
This really blows my mind
now alhamdulillah from Argentina to Siberia too. How hard would it have been to go to a madrasah to check your pronunciation though - even small villages in India and Malaysia have teachers who can say ض. You dont need to go to Harvard to find out how
Exactly, its a required 6 count madd as well
@@abz4852 like every muslims reads it 5x a day too... so really.... the guy could just be a plant wallahualam. with nas daily being a plant i am not surprised by anything anymore
Then WHY ARE THERE QIRA'AT THAT PRONOUNCE DAWD DIFFERENTLY IN THAT SURAH.
Arrogant Wahhabis don't know anything about linguistics or Islam
First of all, a thousand thanks for such an informative video. You indeed have such valuable sources and insights. When I first heard this about ض, I really thought "there are weirder sounds in Arabic". So I am really happy to learn more about this topic. But, there is a big BUT... I think there is a bunch of problems with your video that I couldn't ignore.
To start with, 1. I think it is quite aggresive and misrepresenting to call "false information" a video that does not claim to be the ultimate truth on this topic and that actually brings an actual scholarly refutable discussion on the origin of ض. This could be "a misconception" or "a mistake", but false information sounds like an strong accusation.
2. The guy says "If you've ever spoken about Arabic to a native speaker, then you may have heard that... It's the only language in the world with that sound: ض. At least, that's what a lot of people will tell you". This does NOT mean that he is claiming that this is an official statement or even a scholar statement from Arabic scholars. It is a claim that you truly hear from native speakers from different countries (I personally have and I just considered it a popular unverifiable belief). From 2:13 to 5:23 you are actually arguing against native Arabic speakers who claim what you are debunking, however you depict them as the conclusions of this guy, which you clearly saw he does not believe.
2. 5:45 Again, the video is not claiming this to be true, but it's paraphrasing what misinformed native speakers replicate. It's not a basic premise from the video.
3. 7:12 I think here we come in the realm of confusing articulatory categories and, again, confusion of what are the premises. "Heavy d" is not a precise category in phonetics or phonology and the discussion gets confusing with imprecise sound descriptions. I don't find a part where you make clear if there is a difference between phrayngealized and "heavy". The issue is that almost every website on Tajweed about "heavy letters" says that ض is a heavy letter, but you are saying that ض is not a "heavy d". Your video is not clear at all about what is "heavy" from an articulatory perspective so we have to guess if you agree or not with the idea of "heavy=pharyngealized" or if the sound in question is indeed heavy or not (independently of its other features). I also think you probably misunderstand what he means with "ض is a plosive sound". It sounds at the beginning like you're saying that he says that ض is the same /d/ (د) and that is clearly not true. He is merely building the features of ض, starting with its articulation mode and saying that those sounds share this feature.
4. 10:00 This part kind of works as a support for the video you're critizing. Its idea is that the modern pronunciation of ض as [dˤ] is not the original classical pronunciation. But you don't teach how to, according to you, correctly interpret the chart he showed!
5. 10:25 I don't think that his production of ض is intended to be accurate. You're just correcting his pronunciation but not addressing why ض is not [dˤ].
6. 15:40 And here we come to the unverifiable unprovable tradition that sustains that a sound hasn't changed just because the tradition says so. I think this could be true but "because our tradition" is not an proper academic argument.
Now my question is, where are the palatograms showing the proper Qur'anic pronunciation you are defending? It would be good that you provided very briefly an articulatory description of the the so-called authentic Qur'anic pronunciation in terms of modern linguistics after the quotes from the sources cited by the guy instead of repeating what they said, at the end this is a discussion about western phonetics applied to Arabic.
I found very interesting when you said that the description of ض as a fricative is correct and that the articulation as lateral is also accurate... And your video about ض insists that it is articulated as a lateral, which is incredibly interesting because you are not pronouncing a lateral sound when you pronounce ض. Liquids are salient sounds because of its friction and it's not like you confuse a lateral with a plosive if your language has both distinctive sounds. I even wonder what you understand as a lateral consonant...
@placeholdernm I think this fragment is confusing because he's arguing the same as the other guy: that ض was not a plosive in Quranic times. But the description he makes of the supposed real quranic sound of ض is also confusing and doesn't match the way he actually pronounces most of the time. He also mixes phonetic production with recitation techniques like qalqala, which could contribute to the argument if he actually understood the point of the video he's critisizing...
Pray for the Oppressed
اَللّٰهُمَّ أنْجِ الْمُسْتَضْعَفِيْنَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِيْنَ
Allāhumma anji-l-mustaḍʿafīna mina-l-mu’minīn.
O Allah! Save the weak among the believers. (Bukhārī 3386)
♥️♥️♥️
Nonsense
The rarity of the sound of the letter was referring to its rarity across languages as opposed to its rarity in Arabic
I wanna point out that when he said that dad is *considered* the rarest sound, he doesn’t mean in the rarest occurring sound in Arabic rather it’s the rarest sound cross-linguistically ie. it is said to only be in Arabic
In the same vein, when he means “a rarer sound”, he’s referring to an older different pronunciation of dad that is cross linguistically rarer, not that it’s not used anymore
this video was like a jewel amongst jewels, but rather, this whole channel is like a jewel amongst all the stones
May Allah bless and put barakah and keep the reward and knowledge flowing. ameen.
Letter [ض] is unique because it is the most difficult letter to pronounce in arabic. According to some source that i got, it's said something like Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the only person who could pronounce it correctly, or something like Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the most fluent person in pronouncing this letter.
Letter [ض] is pronounced while both left and right side of your tounge is touching with the left and right upper molars. Instead of [D], i think the sound is somewhat closer to [L]. Because, despite your tip of your tounge also touches the back of the upper incisors, the emphasis is actually on the side tounge with upper molars, unlike [D] where the emphasis is on the tip of the tounge with the back of the upper incisors. That's why it has some similarity with [L] because in both case the tip of your tounge touches the back of the upper incisors but there's no emphasis on it.
how can only one person pronounce a letter correctly? a pronunciation is defined by the broadly accepted way a linguistic group produces a sound
@@sereysothe.a then, the next statement it is, Prophet Muhammad pbuh is the most fluent in pronouncing it. It's been a long time, so i barely remember what the actual sentence.
Also, from my experience learning the Arabic letters especially the Qur'an, each letter indeed has a specific way of how you should pronounce it. So i think it's possible for someone or some group being unable to pronounce it the way it's supposed to be. I mean, isn't that just how a dialect is born?
i think when he said modern arabic he meant how people now speak not how they should speak
I think the issue with the Arabic language in linguistics is its historical ties to the religion of Islam. Many Muslims believe Arabic hasn't evolved and believe Classical Arabic and MSA are identical when the fact is they're different and the language did evolve as languages do naturally. It is impossible to talk about Arabic from a secular linguistic perspective without some Muslims saying their belief in the language hasn't changed since the Quran was written. I'm not an Arab, nor a Muslim or know the Arabic language so I might be wrong here but reading the comments I'm confident that what I'm saying is correct.
Your right on this one. Even Classical Arabic was constantly evolving during the medieval era and this is something i noticed being a native speaker and reader of Classical texts. There was this professor who challenged his student to recite poetry lines and he will determine from which period it's from.
MSA took a huge turn by adapting foreign usages and constructions and if medieval philologist listened to it they won't call it Fus'ha.
But all of this doesn't change the fact that all of this are one language. Even native speakers of dialect especially here in Arabia can understand much of the Qur'an while being illiterates like my grandfathers for example.
But I think what disturb people by these claims is that it challenges the tradition of Tawātur and conserving of Qur'an recitation.
@@sasino4569Absolutely
In Iran in the Ilam province there is a small Arabic dialect where they say ض different depending on where it comes in the word. The word like ضعيف it’s like ر and ع together and in the middle of a word it’s ل and ع and at the end it’s like ض
linguist in training, classical arabic student...
youre a great teacher imo. very well explained.
no insults, objective. straight to the point. thanks, brother.
You could also see @human1011's community post that states this video made many mistakes as well
@@RandomVidsforthought I read the whole post and he didn't say that Arabic 101 made any mistake in his video,
@@RetroGamer-wm4pc Then you’re illiterate
Jazak Allah Khair. Amazing video as always. I recall seeing that video you responded to a few weeks back and I knew there was issues with it. Alhamdulilah for this break down
I remember when I spent my school holidays in Algiers (Capital of Algeria), I often heard people say "دروك" which means "now" instead of "ضروك".
thanks for the clarification and jazaka ALLAH Soubhanahu wa Taala khairane.
Yeah i live in Algiers and you're right , although this word is originally used in the west of algeria and the Algiers version would be something like " دوك / ضوك " ( but since Algiers is the capital you find all sorts of pronunciations from all wilayas )
Also what i found interesting is that old dialects of northern africa and andalus used to pronounce certain letters differently when speaking , like switching a ط with a ت ، or ض ظ with a د ، the ص being pronounced a س ...etc , it generally feels like a softer arabic
@@lynackhilou4865 it would seem that physiologically speaking, there would be a tendency to save energy which would give a lightness of the vocal flow.
the language that we learn - I am talking about the mother tongue - we do not learn it in books so we do not associate it with signs or symbols - letters and graphics - so its use should consume less energy and be more fluid but it nevertheless remains understandable and the basis of all verbal exchange and all communication.
MSA and CA are both called fusha but they are really not the same. How can they be the same. Language depends so much on the environment and culture and modern culture is obviously nothing like how they lived in Arabia 1500 years ago. Yes grammar is 99% taken from CA but still it's not entirely the same age especially if you look at vocabulary there are differences. I'm not saying they are different languages but it's just a completely different context that leads to the words you choose etc...
They have different definitions and newer words and vocabulary! but it's not enough to be categorized as very different.
based on the same criteria, Qur'an having completely different style, very different way of reading the text , gigantic novelty of words and constructions and expressions and more...
The difference between Qur'an and Arabic before it is much more significant than difference between the difference between classical and modern Arabic , no one argue though Qur'an is entirely something else than Arabic dialects itself
Any Arabic speaker who contests this should read العرنجية لأحمد الغامدي
No one is arguing this. What's being argued is whether the pronunciation has been preserved between classical Arabic and MSA which it certainly has. It still remains identical.
@@wakannnai1Nope! There is a reason why Peninsular Arabic dialects outside of Hijaz and Yemen merge ض and ظ
MSA and CA are basically the same thing except Classical Arabs used more vocab while people who speak MSA dont use as many words, they are just sitting in the linguist books but they are essentially just the same thing..
He did say that he is not approaching it from Tajweed POV. He acknowledged in the comments that he is using Linguistics methodology
May Allah reward you. As a language lover I would make a distinction between Classical Arabic and "Proper Arabic" which you used interchangeably. Just to ensure that it is clear that there is nothing improper about dialects being dialects seeing as Arabic has that unique factor, that it has the Fusha variety and the different Ammiya varieties, and there is nothing improper about them even if they are not the same as classical Quranic Arabic.
Salam alaikum sheikh
We are from Palestine 🇵🇸🇵🇸 I ask you to pray for us💙💙..
May Allah relieve people of Palestine and Muslims at large from hand of optessors...
الله يحمي أهل فلسطين وينصرهم ويفرج عنهم. ويحمي السودان واليمن وكل بلاد المسلمين يارب.
Summa ameen❤
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Dua for 🇵🇸:
اللَّهُمَّ أَصْلِحْ أُمَّةَ مُحَمَّدٍ
اللَّهُمَّ فَرِّجْ عَنْ أُمَّةِ مُحَمَّدٍ
اللَّهُمَّ ارْحَمْ أُمَّةَ مُحَمَّدٍ
‘O Allah! Improve (help) the state of the Ummah of Muhammad. O Allah! Grant ease to the Ummah of Muhammad. O Allah! Have mercy on the Ummah of Muhammad.
Feel free to share it🌷
Despite his mistakes, I commeend him for his effort. He is of the Lebanese living in the diaspora just as I am a Palestinian/Jordanian in the diaspora, and the common dialect spoken from the Levantine diasporas are the northern-Levantine dialects where Daad and a MSA 3 are less prominent. Regardless, beautiful video
here are passages from the book ri3âyah by Makkî b. Abî Tâlib al-Kaysî the famous scholar of tajweed in the fourth century wrote the earliest tajweed book in our hands. Was by consensus of scholars one of the best scholars in history in regards to Quran recitations. (Edited for proper translation)
First for ضاد و ظاء
والضاد يشبه لفظها بلفظ الظاء لانهما من الحروف الاطباق ومن الحروف المستعلية ومن الحروف المجهورة ولو لا اختلاف المخرجين وما في الضاد من الاستطالة لكان لفظهما واحد ولم يختلف في السمع
والظاء حرف يشبه لفظه في السمع لفظ الضاد….
الدال تخرج من مخرج الطاء المذكور والدال حرف قوي لانه مجهور شديد كالطاء ولو لا التسفل والانفتاح اللذان في الدال لكانت طاء
And Dhâd (žhâd,ضاد) its pronounciation is similar to the pronunciation of ظاء. Because both of them are from the letters of itbâq(velarization) and from the musta'liyyah letters(raising the back of the tongue) and from the majhûr letters(voiced, vibration of vocal cords). If it were not for the different articulation points and in žhâd be something from istitâlah, their pronunciation would be one and the same and they would not have been different in hearing(sound).
And Zhâ ظاء is a letter similar in its pronounciation in hearing(sound) to the pronunciation of ضاد
Dâl is pronounced from the mentioned articulation point of طاء. Dâl is a Qawî(strong) letter because it is majhûr(voiced) and shadeed(explosive) like طاء. If it were not for tasafful (lowering of the tongue from the hanak(palate of the mouth) and infitâh(not itbâq, not echoing the sound in the mouth) if it were not for these two characteristics in dâl it would have been طاء.
All are from the corresponding section from the book Ri3âyah by Makkî.
Sîbawayhi
ولولا الإطباق لصارت الطاء دالاً، والصاد سيناً، والظاء ذالاً، ولخرجت الضاد من الكلام، لأنه ليس شيءٌ من موضعها غيرها
And if it were not for itbâq(velarization) طاء would have turned in to dâl. Sâd into sîn, ظاء into ذال, and ضاد would be out of speech because there is nothing in its place other than it.
Really ,may Allah reward you for your effort . This the best reply for that clip ,and I think the most perfect word for "ض" is the word "ضوء"
I must admit that you are a master at drawing conclusions that no one made.
You touched on a few of the early scholars of the Arabic language. Could you possibly make a series of videos on the contribution of Muslim scholars to the field of linguistics? Like history in general, this topic is ignored in the typical History of Linguistics course. Thank you!
10:22 Great video, but just a quick correction: human1011 is Lebanese. He is a native Arab and Arabic speaker.
He said in one of his videos, that he had issues learning it since he was born outside(american lebanese?), it isn’t his mother tongue, but he has Lebanese blood through his mother i believe? He struggled to learn arabic
@@abdullahkandrani Yes, he was raised in the West, just like me. But we are native Arabs, even though our Arabic tongue is not as refined as that of our parents.
He is Arab but he is not a native speaker; he was raised in a non-Arab country and did not speak it growing up.
That doesn't give him the right to say wrong information about the language he said himself he is learning! @@ph0uad
@@Nermeen. Of course it doesn't. Just because he is an Arab doesn't mean he is good at the Arabic language.
Very nice and informative critique. Jazkallah. The takeaway is Quran is an audio book. Learn by listening
" لولا الاسناد ، لقال كل من شاء ماشاء "
This is the best comment in this video.
@@ObaidahNaseer thanks
Hi, I am highly interested in Arabic, as a Muslim from the subcontinent (Pakistan/India), and over here we have all kinds of rampant pronunciational differences from the Arab recitation, as the systems for teaching and passing on qur'anic recitation aren't as firm and rooted as they may be in parts of the Arab world. Hence, the Qur'anic education I got was a good one no doubt (and i thank my ustaad deeply, may Allah bless him), but I think many phonetic details of it may have been flawed.
On the other hand, I have a deep interest in linguistics *and* language learning, and enjoy learning several languages to a deep level, along with reading about technical aspects of languages, and the technical side of phonetics fascinates me a lot. I also am kinda a personal fan of that creator of this video, which I had seen before, but I recognize how often the Muslim/Non-western perspective is used to push out traditional history.
That all being said though, I would like to ask- how does the traditional view you are presenting, the one where ض has the exact fricative pronunciation, pressurized exactly as you stated in the video- how exactly can the evidence of the lateral (L-like) quality be explained? Like the Spanish "ld" for Arabic ض (ok, in this case it may be a case of Andalusian dialect of that time, fair), or the southern Indian languages having *Ramalan*. These things seem non-negligible to me, and it's not that I "deny" your explanation. I am genuinely curious to the answers behind these facts.
Thank you very much if you take the time to read and reply, deeply appreciated ✨
As a Muslim interested in linguistics, I want to make some points:
So in short:
Dad may be (and most probably) prounced as a different sound than today and from the Qur'anic Arabic. But this doesn't imply a distortion in the Qur'anic transmission and the certainty that the Prophet (pbuh) pronounced it as such. It simply means the popular pronounciation at that time wasn't the pronounciation of the Prophet's (pbuh).
Explaining why: (I am trying to use a non-techincal lang. I am overlysimplifying things without corrupting it do not get offended because I have skipped longer, more technical and more complicated parts that just means the same thing JazakAllahuKheir)
First of all his basic premise wasn't the one explained in this video, he wasn't saying because Arabic is the language of dad it should be the only lang. that has this sound, but other lang. have it so it should have an older sound. He was trying to stregthen his presentation by mentioning this information. I agree that it may not be a 1000 year norm and actually in this video it has great points why noy but it has nothing to do with his points of dad's possible older pronounciation.
And I also think that in Clasical Arabic dad has the pronounciation that he mentioned but it doesn't nullify or damage the Qur'anic tradition in any aspect. How?
This may have several reasons, at the Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) time the letter jim was newly evolved into a pronounciation and some other dialects were still using the older "original" sound of this sound change actually explains why jim is not a sun letter. Because sun letters are dental, alveolar or post-alveolar sounds even though jim is a post alveolar sound it is not a sun letter. Becasue the older version was a velar sound and when the sound change happened the interaction of the sound with the other sounds didn't change thus keeping it a moon letter. Today after 1400 years jim has advanced in its phonetic cycle and is pronounced as a sun letter in dialects that pronounce it as a post-alveolar sound.
We can make a similar assumption in the letter dad. The Prophet (pbuh) certainly pronounced it as the Qur'an teachers today teach no doubt. But this can be the Prophet's (pbuh) dialect and the actual older sound being a pharyngealized voiced alveolar lateral-fricative and that explains why dad doesn't have qalqalah even though it is predominantly prounced as a "heavy dal" (I know that the Qur'anic dad is not a plosive and should not have qalqalah, but qalqalah is a must in speaking clear arabic used in fusha which the letter pronounced as a plosive so we can say that it has not advanced enough in its phonetic cycle yet as in the case of jim.) And I am upset that all the very important linguistic evidences like Spanish loanwords are discarded. Especailly Spanish loanwords support the point that dad's older pronounciaion is different as the word meaning judge or jurist "al-Qadi" is imported as alcalde with the letter combination . Nearly all languages that borrow words with dad consistantly re-interpret the sound as ld or even l sometimes which is more closer to the sound that he mentions not to the Qur'anic sound.
👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿
What? He said that ض used to sound like "i" or "y" and in Spanish the closest sound is surely "d" not those he mentioned. Do you even speak Spanish? 😅 Your conclusion is as bad as the one who has been refuted.
@@Omroqurba Assalamu aleikum. No, I do not speak Spanish but I think you misunderstood it. He said and I quote "...and sure enough sibawayh agrees he wirtes instead that dad is pronounced quote: "between the first part of the side of the tongue and the adjacent molars." sibaweyh writes quote: "among the limp consonants - the fricatives - are among others the dad" he is telling us explicitly that dad is not a plosive it is instead classified with all the other fricative consonants that is weird right? The side of the tongue hitting the adjacent molars that's "ALMOST" like the letter y /j/." so ya akhi he is saying that the writing implies the sound must be LIKE and he is sayin in the ENTIRE video that he thinks it is pronounced as a pharyngilized voiced alveolar lateral-fricative and not a y sound which is a voiced palatal approximant.
@@Omroqurba And one of his main point was the re-interpretaiton of dad as ld so that's why he finds it weird that if we were to pronounce it as the sibawayh explained it we would have a y sound corresponding in Spanish not a ld so you have just proved my point thanks
You forgot something. He described ض as being plosive. That shows that his understanding of the letter‘s nature is incorrect. Then he said that these older sources describe ض as fricative etc. But ض is fricative now like it was back then. And they tongue positioning remained the same. But he started from a lack of understanding of the letter and assumed that the classical description of the letter is distinct from how Arabs pronounce it nowadays. Then he established his own interpretation of the classical description and came up with a completely different sound which was not known and has no letters describing
Ooooooh الله يجزيك الخير
I was hoping to find a proper (and kind) response to that interesting video
I literally was waiting for this video after watching the other one 😂
Akhy never misses
Kinda missed here ngl
@@mite3959 seek help....
I don't know why westerners especially Americans speak so confidently when they talking about things they know nothing about or just read in Google. I remember watching a video talking about " why pork is not eaten by 2 billion people" and the guy claimed at some point in the video that " people in the middle east decided not to eat pig because it's dirty animal" making it sound like religion had nothing to do with it even doe earlier in the vid he mentioned religions making pork forbidden.
i wouldnt call him a westerner though since he is lebanese. But he just doesnt grow up speaking Arabic
Pls use ur brain cells, he meant that religion bans it due to its filth!
watching through your video, (great breakdown btw), it looks like you're more or less agreeing with him as regards what the correct sound of ض should be.
putting aside all the other bits, you both describe it as a fricative, with slight pressure on the sides so air can escape. the difference between your pronunciation and his is 1. him not relaly getting the sound quite right and 2. linguistically minor enough that they both would fall under the same symbol (ɮˤ).
JazakAllahukhair for all your effort. I learned that the ancient Egyptians probably had the letter ض. But til today I struggle to pronounce it correctly.😔 hope I'll find a female teacher soon. InshaAllah
You really did him dirty teacher by complimenting his non native arabic, the man is a a̶r̶a̶b̶i̶c̶ r̶a̶i̶s̶e̶d̶ lebanese 😭
Replies made clear the guy despite being of arabic lebanese decent, didnt grow up speaking arabic therefore isnt native.
Yeah, he’s Arab, but he already said that he’s learning Arabic since he doesn’t live in an Arab country. Plus, dialects can differ and etc
he is an American of Lebanese origin, and didn't grow up speaking Arabic
HAHAHAHAHAHAA
If you heard him speaking Arabic for more than 3 seconds you'll know he's not a native speaker
I just recently saw a video where he said حمزة instead of همزة
He’s not a native Arabic speaker though. He’s learning it as a second language.
This reminds me of the word epitome, if you’ve never heard the word you’d expect it to be epi-tome but once you hear it you hear it is e-pi-to-me
ive just been saying ض to myself for 5 minutes because of this video
to be honest his video was great and informative.. he made few mistakes BUT who doesn't!. his reference to the Tihami tribe is very true as I saw a documentary on Aljazeera doing interviews with the tribe pronouncing the ض exactly as he said
ppl are to confused the guy didn’t bring islam into it at all all he’s saying is there’s likely variant of ض pronunciation just like in the usa r is pronounced different than the uk. fus7a is based on one dialects pronunciation and a different dialect wouldn’t mean changing standard fus7a
الحمد لله على نعمة الاسلام ❤
Praise to god for having you
Side note:
On 9:23 , ya know most sudanese people say it as Ga not Gha... and the Qaf as Gha pronunciation is rare but it happens at times
Tbf, it was all just an assumption on how it was sounded, since no one can replicate a lost sound
The video doesn't present Arabic being called لغة الضاد as the reason why we must assume that it used to be pronounced differently in the past, or that's not how I interpreted it at least. He and linguists believed ض was pronounced differently because of the other "evidence" he showed, and لغة الضاد is just something that that would explain if it were true. And "لغة الضاد" meaning Arabic being the only language with ض isn't a conclusion he made based on just the phrase itself, but it's a common "fact" shared along with the name. In fact, when you search up لغة الضاد, the first result claims that Arabic is the only language with the sound. He was just making reference to what is commonly thought.
Great video otherwise and this doesn't really have much to do with the main conclusion, but I just felt you spent too much time on these "logical fallacies" which I think make complete sense.
The moment i heard him saying this wierd unexisting letter i knew he has know no idea what is he talking about
What letter? ض؟ It’s his second language calm down.
Fantastic video. And great way of correcting without being aggressive or needlessly making things hostile. JAK
The yemeni sisters are here get ready🙄🤣
😂
Lol
😂
they become some sort of mean girls i see 😂
The best evidence is that from east to west its pronounced the same by schools of Quran.
2:26 - 3:25 in my school there was a arabic day and we sang a nasheed in arabic that had a verse that said: "لغتي لغة الضاد" (my language, the language of Dhaad) and i also had to do a speech about the language of arabic and it had "the language of Dhaad" (idk what it exactly said but it had something like that in arabic)
Well, to be fair, we sometimes do need to see how the schoolar of other culture or religion background for new perspective. No need to believe it, but no need to reject it at all to
The letter (ض) and every other arabic letter is also found on Tamazight plus more fricatives and other sounds.
He's actually Lebanese, he is arab, but he doesn't live there
Beautifully explained
In my region the letter ض is pronounced as a heavy v, dialect pronunciation differ by region and should not be taken as the ancient/original version of the letter, because it is a deviation from the original, that developed through the years due to isolation.
WHAT REGION?? THAT'S SO INTERESTING
You mean Z
Which region's dialect?
are you from eastern Turkey?
@@balarab1 Are you from Central Asia or Eastern Türkiye?
He isn't making the claim that you're "debunking" at the beginning ("language of dād = unique sound"); he says it's _what people say about it._
edit: Also, the "rarest sound" means "rare cross-linguistically", not "rarest among Arabic words".
edit 2: Also, the comparison he makes with dal is to point out that it is different; you're "correcting" the same claim you make!
edit 3: Also also, dād IS a plosive in MSA, and MSA is not the same as classical Arabic-this is orthodox!
edit 4: "There is no constriction in the throat..." → [shows constriction in the throat] 😐
edit 5: "Rarer" has nothing to do with whether people teach it today. He's talking about interlinguistic rarity, again.
+ the question about how we can know is rhetorical; he's not actually saying we can't know.
...maybe I should make a response video.
Don’t worry, Human1011 already made a response post in the Community tab
MSA and Classical Arabic are *not* the same. In fact, the first one is only called "Modern Arabic" in order to distinguish it from "Classical Arabic". Many elements of MSA are from a Classical perspective simply wrong, especially newspaper Arabic is a catastrophe from that perspective. And many Classical elements are not existent in MSA.
The fact that you bring newspaper as an example is a proof that you missed his point
@@Marta1Buck I simply shared an information: MSA and Classical Arabic are not the same.
Any Arabic speaker who contests this should read العرنجية لأحمد الغامدي
@@UploadsUnlimited
No, they are exactly the same, but only the style differs. The ancient Arabs were characterized by fluency and brevity in speech, and they did not add much that would be considered in their view to be mere useless padding.
@@mshiv5488 "but only the style differs". No, there are differences in grammar, no matter. As I said: Many elements of MSA are from a Classical perspective simply wrong. Whoever denies that does not know what he's talking about.
Studying tajwid and then hearing him describing dhad with linguistics term got me over my head
Until you just basically explain it in the tajwid terminology that I finally understand he was referring to the same dhad we use everyday
Thank you brother
Barakallahu fik
Btw.. ج with 3 dots is Ch sound. The G sound is ك with double lines. While /3/ sound is ز with 3 dots. You can find it in Parsi and Urdu keyboards.
In Egypt we pronounce ج nearly always as G, for the j sound we write چ (explicitly in normal dialect, when reading the Quran it's back to the correct pronunciation in the video)
There's not really a rule tho so as long as the majority of a community understands what you mean it just becomes the norm in that region.
P.S: I NEVER heard anyone say that Arabic is the language of ض. So besides scholars, even normal people don't agree to that
Yeah I saw the original video and was very confused by some of his information
I put this comment under his video:
is worth mentioning that we can confirm with a high degree of knowledgeable confidence how the letters sounded, at least during the time of the beginning of Islam.
This is because the Arabs, and later the Muslims, transmitted the Quran orally and were diligent in preserving its pronunciation and the articulation of the letters (مخارج الحروف). They established this as a field of study, passed down from generation to generation.
here are passages from the book ri3âyah by Makkî b. Abî Tâlib al-Kaysî the famous scholar of tajweed in the fourth century wrote the earliest tajweed book in our hands. Was by consensus of scholars one of the best scholars in history in regards to Quran recitations.(Edited for proper translation)
First for ضاد و ظاء
والضاد يشبه لفظها بلفظ الظاء لانهما من الحروف الاطباق ومن الحروف المستعلية ومن الحروف المجهورة ولو لا اختلاف المخرجين وما في الضاد من الاستطالة لكان لفظهما واحد ولم يختلف في السمع
والظاء حرف يشبه لفظه في السمع لفظ الضاد….
الدال تخرج من مخرج الطاء المذكور والدال حرف قوي لانه مجهور شديد كالطاء ولو لا التسفل والانفتاح اللذان في الدال لكانت طاء
And Dhâd (žhâd,ضاد) its pronounciation is similar to the pronunciation of ظاء. Because both of them are from the letters of itbâq(velarization) and from the musta'liyyah letters(raising the back of the tongue) and from the majhûr letters(voiced, vibration of vocal cords). If it were not for the different articulation points and in žhâd be something from istitâlah, their pronunciation would be one and the same and they would not have been different in hearing(sound).
And Zhâ ظاء is a letter similar in its pronounciation in hearing(sound) to the pronunciation of ضاد
Dâl is pronounced from the mentioned articulation point of طاء. Dâl is a Qawî(strong) letter because it is majhûr(voiced) and shadeed(explosive) like طاء. If it were not for tasafful (lowering of the tongue from the hanak(palate of the mouth) and infitâh(not itbâq, not echoing the sound in the mouth) if it were not for these two characteristics in dâl it would have been طاء.
All are from the corresponding section from the book Ri3âyah by Makkî.
Sîbawayhi
ولولا الإطباق لصارت الطاء دالاً، والصاد سيناً، والظاء ذالاً، ولخرجت الضاد من الكلام، لأنه ليس شيءٌ من موضعها غيرها
And if it were not for itbâq(velarization) طاء would have turned in to dâl. Sâd into sîn, ظاء into ذال, and ضاد would be out of speech because there is nothing in its place other than it.
Ye
Great analysis & explanation as usual.
The sad thing is that some Muslims were so quick to accept the original video as true and left glowing comments. It's like people are ready to take information concerning their religion (i.e. the oral preservation of the Quran) from literally anyone who has a platform.
basically eople are choosing a random guy on youtube over a mutawatir transmision of the Quran
Actually the possible older pronouncition doesn't contradict the Qur'anic transmission it just simply means it was generally pronounced as such but the Prophet (pbuh) pronounced it in a different and a more beautiful way
@@yasinefeisk8739And why do you say that? 😂 Are you a fanatic of that guy or do you have a PhD?
We shouldn't bring religion into the topic if we are going to research it objectively, Proof then belief, not the other way around, in order to avoid bias, again this isn't a matter of religion.
@@its2eezy
That's a fallacy right there.
I don't think "random" is an appropriate word when actual research is done for the video.
جزاك الله خيرا ❤
As someone who's studied Makharij, after I watched that video I immediately went to the comments to correct it, but one of your videos is probably more useful than a thousand comments.
Jazakallahu khairan.
Also the reason I believe he made this mistake is because he is of Lebenese origin, so he seems to have confused the ض in his dialect with the classical ض.
The daad in his dialect is the same as the modern daad used for the Qur'an and used in this video.
@@NK-vd8xi in most dialects they pronounce ض more similar to ط and that's probably why he called it a plosive
@@Honest_Question I think you meant ظ. This is the only mix up that is considered permitted, scholars from the early part of the last century actually forbade the modern pronunciation of ض (Egyptian ض) for salah. This video is arrogance at its finest.
@@Honest_Question oh btw I just reread your comment properly. Yes you're right , in fact the modern ض used for the Qur'an currently is based off dialectal forms that are plosives.
The Lebanese ض is the same as the MSA one, and different to the one the Prophet pronounced
In Somali we have the sounds of all the Arabic alphabet ا ب ت…except ص ط ز.
Not entirely sure if classical Somali uses these letters( I doubt it though); many words are alien today, but can be found in classical poetry. However its written in Roman Alphabet.
It probably would be so confusing to a reader if it was written in Arabic,probably easy for Arabic speakers to learn Somali/read. Would love to see it written using Arabic Alphabet.
When non Arabic speakers hear Somali they assume it’s Arabic. It has soo many Arabic words too. Made it easy for me to learn the Qur’aan and read Arabic(pronouncing)however, it doesn’t make it easy to learn Arabic PROPERLY as it’s a separate language. But i’m glad pronunciation isn’t hard for us.
Thank you so much for covering this, I was really confused when I watched the video but I assumed that surely it didn't go against Quranic recitation.
thank you for clearing this up
Jazak Allahu khayran Brother
Every dialect of Arabic has its own unique pronunciation of each letter, and the origin of Arabic is Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Syria, and thus the original pronunciation should be found in these region. Even Hebrew had sound shifts b-v and w-v and even in the Classical Hebrew period it is recorded that some people of the tribe of Emphraim couldn't pronounce the sh in Shin (ש) in the word Shibboleth since thier diapect lost it. The most conservative Hebrew dialect (more of pronunciation)is Yemeni Hebrew and so the most conservative Arabic dialects is also from the South Arabia region ( Arabia Felix). Modern Hebrew had to be based on Mizrahi (Middle Eastern) Hebrew and Shepardic (Spanish) Jews since they preserve more original pronunciation of words. Infact second generation speakers are changing how words are pronounced. I'm neither a Jew or a Muslim but I am studying both languages for creating a conlang.
Ask any English speakers to pronounce a word and you will hear very different pronunciation which can tell you where they come from
If he has Arab parents, he is an Arab but didn't learn it as a first language so his pronunciation will be mixed. I don't get why experts get the most disturbed whenever someone comes with a discovery and remember Language is not static but moving unless it wants to die. Everything is in motion.
There is also a conflict on how Koine Greek ought to be pronounced. The language of the person speaking affects how they read the letters.
From a purely linguistic point of view, he could be right. A pre-islamic version of ض could have existed and that was my takeaway from his videos. His mistake though was linking the "old" ض and the modern claim that arabic that "arabic is the language of ض" which is a common error, I guess clickbaity titles attract viewers
Speaking of which, your title seems a bit harsh, you clarified some of the info but I wouldn't go as far as to claim he made deliberately "false" claims, he's born abroad and gave it his best shot as a linguist (student I believe), and you acknowledged his effort.
I mean the Lebanese guy did say ‘in the early Islamic empire’
How did he give it his best? The least he could've done is contacted a Muslim scholar/ Qur’ān teacher who has studied the classical works and checked with him. To simply echo the quotes of orientalists isn't anyone's "best", its lousy work.
@@imk31914 I mean he isn’t Muslim
@@Avistyl So? Arabic is undoubtedly the language of the Muslims, for atleast 1400 years now, due to the Qur’ān. If you want to make controversial statements about the language, you should atleast consult a Muslim scholar and have him fact check you. Its not as if Muslim scholars/ students of knowledge are prohibited from speaking to a non muslim.
*sigh* reread what I wrote, there's a reason I said purely from a linguistic point of view. If a pre-islamic version of ض existed, it could have remained. When the Qur'an was revealed there were many dialects, but the recitation was fixed as the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) did it and the books detailing the prononciation help in that regard, we also had many who memorized it. The problem is most of you seem too sensitive, I'm a muslim and that video changes nothing. Languages change over time, does that mean the Qur'an changed? Absolutely not, because we had people who memorized it and wrote it down and transmitted the way to recite it. What about pre-islamic times? Or some niche dialect or, or, or... Not everything has to be a jab at Islam, you know? I found the video an attempt to explore an older version of ض and I appreciate it, that's it.
Thank you so much for this thorough explanation. I had a comment on his video pointing out in short that his conclusion was not correct and a little comment war in his comment section on Instagram. Your explanation it out perfectly. Thank you so much, sir.
Could you provide the IPA transcription of ض? Because I can't quite understand how it isn't a plosive
The modern ض is most definitely a plosive, as it does not have continuous air flow leaving the mouth. This idiot doesn't know what fricative/rikhawah is. Check out Tulaib Zafir´s video on the subject.
He can't
it is lmfao, it's literally written in the ipa as /dˤ/ but his definitions are arbitrary because he doesn't have a full grasp of linguistics or phonology as a whole
@@msruag
It's not a plosive and that's known among all Qur'an teachers and students, it's literally the most common mistakes, and it's because in many dialects like Syrian and Lebanese and Egyptians people pronounce it as a plosive.
The plosive version became more common among normal people, but among Quran learners it's a very known mistake.
The wiki ipa descriptions have no authority over how a letter is pronounced as they often take popular pronunciations instead of correct ones.
Nobody speaks Arabic natively today (dialects are sublanguages of Arabic), so it makes no sense to use "Arabs" of today as a reference to how a letter in standard Arabic is pronounced.
Especially when we have an environment like the Qur'an learning circles where precision on pronouncing the letters correctly is emphasized.
@@johannesziaether3916 The ض as most people pronounce it and how arabic101 is pronouncing it is a plosive, when pronouncing it there is no continuous stream of air leaving the mouth.
And in circles of scholars they will use the classical pronunciation which is similar to what was advocated for by human1011
Pakistani/indian muslims have been pronouncing "dad" as normal "z" and or 'd" for a long time but most likely only for casual urdu speach, but simply because it is "ancient" doesnt makes it real, the reasons why i picked example of desis is because they also had learned "dad" from arabs as alot of them stayed in Macca and madina for studies but they only used it most likely for the quran not ALWAYS for casual urdu speach.
The example you gave at 12:30 does not sound like a fricative. It sounds like a plosive.
All muslim should learn the perfect pronunciation of all Arabic alphabets. Its mandatory when u have time.
جزاكم الله خيرا
Jazāk-llahu Khairan Kasiran 😊
Tamazight Languages has
ض ⴹ) sound)
In words like
Night ⵉⴹ.idd
Finger ⴹⴰⴹ ddadd
Three ⴽⵔⴰⴹ kradd
Do you think pre islamic arabic had the p sound? Like aramaic and hebrew has the letter peh that has the double role of 'f' and 'p' sound?
Thank you for this video and effort. Has he acknowledged it ?
How does any of this affect any muslim?
Brother you are wrong. This Lebanese guy is right. Listen to Sheikh Albani's video on this subject. There were scholars in Egypt that pronounced dad as fricative. Not as it is pronounced today
No, ض pronunciation didn't change; they may have spoken a unique Egyptian dialect, but that doesn't mean the latter used to be spoken like that.
It's literally impossible to change, the reason is because of the Quran, as we have a chain of narrations that trace back to the prophet peace and blessings be upon him those are very very strict and especially on the pronunciations of the letters, if you ever gone to a Quran school you'd understand what I mean they'll focus first on pronunciation before memorising
@@baraaw5961 There is an ongoing debate between islamic scholars on what the correct Pronunciation of ض is.
@@nicco-sixty never heard any scholar have such debate, name them.
@@baraaw5961for one he named one already, al-Albani. It’s actually a famous scholarly debate, I obviously take the normative opinion but the debate exists.
Brother the amount of respect I have for you is huge. Thank u for your efforts
Moral of the story: If you try to draw conclusions Classical Arabic, with only knowledge of the Lebanese Dialect will lead to complete failure.
Also after watching both videos and the written responses, its clear that the main issue is that by "Classical Arabic" Human 1011 meant the Byzantine Arabic (Syria/Lebanon), while Arabic101 means Qur'anic Arabic. . .
The issue is Byzantine Arabic is a post Quranic Arabic development. Arabic came to The Levant as a result of Islamic conquest. Before this they spoke Aramaic (which some Levantine Christians still use today). Any Levantine Arabic differences would be the result of adaptation of Quranic Arabic with their particular dialect of Aramaic. This fact cannot be ignored.
@@wakannnai1 While one language originates from another, that doesn't change the fact that knowledge or information about 1 will not necessarily translate to the other.
Loving your tongue animation diagram 👏🏻
What are you saying? 9:00 I’m so confused. So you are disagreeing with him in calling Dhad a plosive sound and… don’t provide any clarification as to why? Dhad in MSA is, in fact, a plosive. It isn’t an opinion, this is a specific sound type with specific manner of articulation. It can be studied and described. You don’t come off as someone who is knowledgeable in phonetics because you lack clearness in your phonetic description.
Thank you, I was so confused there too. I think he’s not actually talking about MSA but rather the completely different pronunciation that Quran reciters use for some reason
Dad in MSA is not a plosive.
Just because the wiki ipa says it, it doesn't make it true.
The plosive version of Dad is popular nowadays because it's the native sound most Lebanese, Syrian and Egyptian people use, but this doesn't make it the correct description.
MSA is the same as classical Arabic, they're the same language, they have the same sounds and the same grammar, they're simply two different styles of speech.
Today there are no native standard Arabic speakers (dialects are sublanguages of the Arabic language), so using the popular pronunciation of the letter Dad as a reference just because the people we call "Arabs" today pronounce it that way is totally unreasonable.
Especially when we have a much better reference to how Standard Arabic should be pronounced, which are Quran learning centers, where precision is very prioritized when it comes to pronunciation.
@@johannesziaether3916 Source? Neither you nor Arabic 101 have given a single source apart from your gigantic heads. In fact, Arabic 101 described a velarized plosive when talking about his dialect and said that a pharyngealized plosive is wrong… even though both are allophonic. At the very least give your own ipa as to what it is if you don’t trust the wiki ipa. And it’s not “just wiki ipa” pretty much every reliable source has it as an emphatic plosive. MSA and classical arabic are not the same, why would you think that? It’s literally called MODERN standard arabic which is like the opposite of CLASSICAL.
جزاكم الله خيرا
6:27 "Basic premise"
If you look to the science of tajweed you will see that the ض letter is pronounced the same as in modern arabic but with something called تفخيم and with that it fits the definition of sebawey since it’s pronounced from up back of the mouth near the molars and besides that the quran was transferred to as with something called التواتر and its when someone memorizes the whole quran from another person that already memorized it the same way arriving to the prophet pbuh and that what Preserves the reading since the scholars care a lot about the reading which is called tajweed and there is only 10 ways of reading the quran قرآت and with that the pronunciation of the letter ض didn’t actually change and another evidence of that is that allah persevered the quran from changing and with that he persevered the pronunciation since the pronunciation of arabic didn’t change unlike the other languages and with that of course i mean the fusha arabic فصحى not the dialects