Inclines and Power Base at Chadwick Model Railway | 118.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ธ.ค. 2020
- Inclines are hard to climb, but is DCC Concepts Power Base the answer at Chawick Model Railway.
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Sorry folks but the Percentage figures of the helix inclines in this video are wrong. They should be,
Outside track = 2.3% (1 in 43) rise.
Inside track = 2.6% (1 in 38) fall.
I spent Literally Hours working out % gradients based on the overall pull of my locos considering double headers and current rolling stock ESPECIALLY with the choice of couplers I use which create a whole new bunch of numbers that just become jibberish after a while BUT the helix I agree what seems like such a simple concept has a vortex of of endless matrixes as well defined here and those numbers seem exceptionally conervative and like someone that has practiced where the average 1:40 seems a bit pedestrian. Love the Love in this series :)
Hi there
I've been messing around building my own helix, it's surprising how much difference a small amount of grade change can make.
With the amount of clearance you have between decks I would lower the levels buy mybe 10mm each if possible. All those 10mm of space saving on each level should add up to extra loop in the helix decreasing the sloop %. I had to do this and it made a massive difference, made things tighter but made it worth while doing.
Kind regards Dan
@@loco82 A fair point Dan. Regards Charlie
Charlie, I don't know if the above numbers take this into account but "effective grade" is increased on curves. The ratio is 32/curve radius. So in the case of your inside track, if the curve radius is say 24", your effective grade would be 32/24 or 1.3%+2.6% for a total "effective grade of 3.9%
Please don’t loose sight that the inner track is the down line Scott.
I’ll be honest I got sweaty hands watching that HST driving flat out toward the void. You are a brave man Charlie!
I had the same thought especially as I have stay alive capacitors in many of my locomotives. 🤨
It even had my heart racing even when you know you’re safe!
@@1952TonyC Yup this is why a 680uF capacitor is is high as i go, theyre only supposed to be there to stop micro stutters not make the train keep going.
@@Synthematix guilty as charged! I confess to going over the top. 🤔
I was also a little worried that it might go over the top. But it certainly shows what the Hornby HST can do.
Thank you Charlie for another excellent video, as a newcomer to the hobby at 65 I find your videos very informative and helpful. I took your advice you gave me last week and have gone with DCC and I'm delighted with it, so thanks again for the great advice.
That’s great news Rob. Regards Charlie
Excellent video Charlie, I am presently building an incline each end of a 12ftx6ft layout and have purchased these power base packs as i suspect i will need them. This is the first video I have found that clearly demonstrates the necessity.for this item for steam locos. Well done Charlie and many thanks. I always find your videos extremely informative and very detailed. Keep up the great work. Cheers Mike. 👍
michael , I'm so pleased that you found the video useful.
Regards Charlie
I look forward for your videos, not only for the information, but also your sense of humor
We have to keep smiling in these challenging times Ralph. Regards Charlie
"What can possibly.....go wrong" - Love it. Really enjoying the helix journey and all the invaluable tips and hints Charley - makes Fridays worth waiting for even though I am in a huge amount of trouble now from HRH for delaying starting final paint of kitchen! :)
It’s funny you should say so Ian. In my kitchen I’ve done the white work, both undercoat and gloss but yet to tackle the ceiling all the walls!
Bravo, Sir! As Educating, Informing and Entertaining as ever!
I have a confession to make too. I thought to myself before your confession "And it only took 72 magnets!" All the best!
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it RM.
Interesting to watch a problem solving exercise. Thanks for a great video. I just kept thinking what a brilliant excuse for double heading or having a banker at the back - maybe steam and diesel together.
Double heading on the helix yes, but banking no, it could all go terribly wrong. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Yes of course, not thinking. So your HST did not have a power car at each end - even more impressed with its performance.
34 year's old.
Friday night/Saturday morning. 3:00am
Just cracked open another beer to sit back and watch an episode of Chadwick Model Railway.
Bliss.
You’re too kind Gary. Stay safe mate. Regards Charlie.
Thank you Charlie. I found that content fascinating. Good luck with rest of build sir.
Thanks Lisa, you’re too kind. Regards Charlie
Another great, fun, informative video.
Thanks again.
Andrew
Thanks Andrew I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it. Regards Charlie
as usual a brilliant and helpful instructional Charlie. thanks for your efforts!
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it buddy.
Oh I have learnt a lot from you Charlie.... for all things layout, you have become my go-to resource for knowledge. By the way if you don’t like the la France I’ll happily give it a new home for you! It’s one loco I would have loved!
Finally a good decent video on powerbase and how it works when i build my next layout in the future i will use powerbase in the inclines good video as always. Cheers and all the best.
Nicholas.
Thanks Nicholas, I’m so pleased that you found it useful. Regards Charlie
A very enjoyable video Charlie...seeing the trains going up the Helix. Nice to see it all coming together too...all the best.
Thanks Tim, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
Thank you Charlie. Really useful and you’ve set me thinking about all the possibilities available to increase storage dramatically by use of a helix.
Tony
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Tony. Regards Charlie.
@@ChadwickModelRailway A multi storey helix would be fascinating - having turn-offs at different levels. No pressure, you've got a couple of weeks :)
Hi Charlie i have been watching your videos for a while now and have subscibed. You have inspired me to get of my bum after i damaged my back to build my own. Thankyou keep up the good work all the best Ian
Ian , I'm so pleased that you found the video useful.
Good luck with your project.
Regards Charlie
What can i say Charlie. thanks for sharing this concept for pulling trains up banks. wish i had done the a power base idea years ago. buts its never to late. all the best Tony
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Tony good luck with your inclines, regards Charlie
1) my best Christmas ever was when I persuaded my sister to buy my 10 year old nephew a train set "'he's old enough to appreciate it now".
2) had to smile to see the Fire Extinguisher and First Aid Kit in the Affiliate Links. Supect there's a story there :)
Better safe than sorry SC!
@@ChadwickModelRailway the first aid kit - yes, nothing more annoying than a cut, but the fire extinguisher!!!
It’s the wiring and soldering that folks should think about. I’ve even used a blow-lamp on mine.
Hi Charlie as always entertaining and informative with good advice for anyone contemplating inclines............Cheers Kev
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Kevin. Regards Charlie
Excellent video Charlie. Did chuckle early on. 8 trains he says. 😂. Very informative and as I’m only running steam in will not be incorporating a helix into my layout. Thanks again for great entertainment
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting Paul. Regards Charlie
Great and interesting video Charlie! Thanks for sharing. Cheers Onno.
Thanks Onno, , I’m so pleased that you’re still on board with me. Regards Charlie
So - we're back to 1960's Triang-Hornby Magnadhesion...you'll need a smoke unit for that 9F and some good old Super Four track though!
My thoughts exactly . . . I have to ask, though, would not an extra circuit and a shallower gradient have been better?
I had super four but never made the jump to system six!.
A fair point Peter, but an extra circuit would’ve made the distance within each level even more shallow making it much more difficult to re-rail trains.
cogidubnus1953 Charlie will make his own smoke carrying on as he does, either from his Locos, wallet, or Blood Pressure! 😆 😆 😆 😆 💨
Great update, thanks! Here’s hoping you have things up and running to schedule in a Christmas Special service!
No pressure then Dak Dak!
@@ChadwickModelRailway We don’t rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training... Go RN. And at the rate you have proceeded so far, I expect no less 😉
Thanks Charlie, great video, had a feeling you would need powerbase. I mentioned it in one of your previous videos as I had to do the same thing, it's a great invention from DCC Concepts, well worth it.
I’m glad that we have both benefited from an interesting product. Regards Charlie
Like your winky way of presentation its always fine to watch you and see your efforts and ideas thumbs up!
It’s great to have you on the side Thomas. Regards Charlie
Nice job. Added tractive effort seems to have three solutions: traction tires or friction modifier (e.g. Bullfrog Snot) on the drive wheels to stop slipping; increase mass over the drive wheels (tyre weights, TempLo); or make a helper district out of the helix and have some grunty useful engines as part of the operation scheme tasked with pushing on the back end or cut into the middle of your trains. I dislike the first option, am scheming the second, and haven't the opportunity for the third yet. Thanks for your hard work on these videos.
Thanks Erik, good advice, many thanks.
Thank you Charlie!
You’re most welcome Warren.
Regards Charlie.
Brilliant video Charlie ! Was testing my locos up a 2.5% incline and found that my Hogwarts Express could only pull 2 carriages up. After fitting power base it can now pull 4 carriages. Thanks for providing me the information that has really, really helped me get a better layout. Will be following you forever. Cheers, Rick Bulldog of Digon Alley Station.
Thanks Rick, I’m so pleased that you found the video useful. Regards Charlie
Excellent video with much useful information. Well done!
Thanks Paul, you’re too kind.
Brilliant video Charlie, really enjoyed watching the tests, it's a big investment if it didn't work. But looks like its (with a bit of tweaking) will be fine. I'm pleased for you. It will be great to see it fully installed and when you get the other end done it will be magnificent. You and the family stay safe see you on the next one Eddy xx
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Eddy.
Brilliant. Of all the things I spend my money on for model railroading, being a patron of this channel is *the* best value for money. You're saving me and a lot of others a huge amount of time by figuring this stuff out and giving these tips. Keep up the good work!
Chris, you’re far too kind mate.
Regards Charlie.
That was a very interesting and as usual a well thought out and presented video Charlie, great watch , bless the Atlantic 🚂🚞🚞🚞
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Steve.
Hey, Charlie! Been on a roll at work lately so just saw this video. Had a pal who built his helix, well two of them, using super elevation. Didn't test it until completely installed. Couldn't understand why his trains folded into the center of the helix every time.
Helix construction brings on just about all the challenges of model railroading; you are explaining it well enough for even me to understand all the complexities. As always, Charlie, thank you for the lesson. BTW, I picked up a Brother PT-E300 label printer. Best purchase i've made in a long while! Thanks for the tip!
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed the video and the printer is a great asset Pat.
An important step in placing the Powerbase magnets is to ensure they are at the balance point of the loco so as to get the artificial gravity to pull down on all driving wheels. I have 2 x 6 metre inclines and the powerbase has made them transition from hopeless to wonderful when I run my very old Lima diesels and more modern 2-6-4s. I also placed the plates well beyond the incline top, into the flat areas so that they could get the whole train up the hill rather than just the first couple of wagons.
A great comment David, and very useful. Regards Charlie
Another excellent video. Very instructive. I now know that my steam locos would not negotiate such an incline. My diesels, should have no problem.
Well done.
Thanks Peter, you’re too kind.
Interesting - and some food for thought as I start my straight incline, which will finish with a fairly tight radius curve. As I watched the video, the thought of doubling up trains as they used to do at Shap came to mind. With DCC I guess thats another option? So, their was some method in the madness 50 years ago with the Triang series 3 track and magnahesion!! My problem with the track will be rust on the line...rather than your 'leaves on the line'. Perhaps fitting sandboxes???? no- maybe not go there!
The pressures us modellers have to endure Ian. Hopefully you found it useful. Regards Charlie.
For some odd reason my head told me that PowerBase was too expensive. Having just re-checked, I can see it isn't at all. Thank goodness you prompted me to take another look before I built my helix. As ever, Charlie, you are saving me from myself.
What a heartwarming comment Bill.
Regards Charlie.
I laid my track with an incline before powertrack was around and steam engines would struggle to climb with anything more than a couple of coaches.
I cut thin strips of metal and fitted them on top of the sleepers between the rails , painted track colour they aren't too bad aesthetically. I then used neodymium magnets stuck to the bottom of the engines ,wooden coffee stirrers used to shim them as close to the track as possible. The
pulling power was increased dramatically.
I enjoyed watching your video and would certainly use this if I build new inclines in the future.
A terrific comment Stephen. Thank you very much indeed. Regards Charlie
Charlie, you should have your own TV show. Excellent video
You’re too kind Jason. Regards Charlie
Amazing.....your knowledge is experience and is unmeasureable
No David, I just learned from hundreds of mistakes!
@@ChadwickModelRailway That is exactly what I mean....Life is about learning..it never stops..great stuff however on the electrical bits you lose me...stay healthy
Go hornby 3 rail or wrenn locos very powerful no problem on my track with 50 tin plate wagons on tow !! Long live 3 rail !!
And timeless too BW.
Always good information Charlie, great work. 👍
Thanks Paul, you’re too kind. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie,
We will make a scientist of you yet. I went down this road some years back
but moved on to other model railway matters. Your video 'Testing Inclines' has revitalised
my interest in the subject. The start of my adventure was weighing all my rolling stock and
measuring the drawbar pull, [aka Tractive Effort?] of all my locomotives with a device I built up
using a very sensitive set of digital scales. Typical result was that a locomotive weighing in at
255 grams recorded a 'drawbar pull' of 45 grams. One can of course fiddle with these two
figures to derive some sort of 'hauling capacity' for any locomotive but the answer we seek is a
little more complicated than that as we have to add in the rolling stock variables which I have
not yet got to grips with, until perhaps now thanks to your video sparking my memory of my
engineering school days and the mechanics of the Inclined Plain and Coeficient of Friction
studies. Finding what I thought was my old school text book on the subject turned out to be
not mine but my fathers dated 1923 and it looks to have maybe the answers to perhaps come
up with devising a 'calculator' or chart of some sort etc that might make for something useful
when it comes to hauling loads up grades in our model railway hobby. Lab time!
What a thoroughly intriguing comment Indigo. I had thought of measuring the tractive effort (would that be in Newtons?) for all of my locos. Similarly, with the helix I could measure the TE required to pull certain trains. The only type of gauge that I can find on eBay, is a simple spring balance but its accuracy might be doubtful. Mind you, at around £5 what do you expect!
Do keep me posted on your progress by email to chadwickmodelrailway @ gmail.com.
Regards Charlie
Great video Charlie, shows how necessary it is to use this system if you have serious inclines. In the colliery I worked we had an 08 on the surface which we maintained. There was an incline down to the sidings from the loco shed that was so steep you had to have spiked boots on to walk up it, well...you know what I mean. That old 08 climbed it like a dream, Going down was another matter, once you started there was no stopping, used up most of the headshunt and sometimes a little bit more! Thanks for the video though, really enjoyed it. regards gareth
A great comment Gareth, thank you very much. Regards Charlie
'Bin' the cutie LB&SCR Atlantic? That would be a criminal act! Thanks for the video, very interesting.
I wouldn’t really be in it. Just withdraw it from more labourious tasking!
Great video. Really interesting and informative watch,, time flew! I'll stick with my diesels for now, on inclines at least! Thanks
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting mate. Regards Charlie
Yes Charlie the details on the under side of the LBSC Atlantic is Break roding (double d ing ?) . I think that I have mentioned before that a helix is something that I would never need to build. But I still like learning, and enjoy your videos.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Mike
Your ingenuity knows no bounds when sorting issues out. I would not be brave enough to drill into the bottom of my locos, just in case something may or may not work.
You’re too kind Jason, regards Charlie
SUPER VIDEO I have spent HOURS OF CALCULATIONs on making it work and still getting maximum staging in fiddle yard. I’m only weeks away from first video of series starting. Inclines are fascinating and magnet assistants are super but great ideas are timeless super as always you stay safe over there I’m worried for many of you in countries that are. It taking current climate seriously. Stay safe sir chat soon!
A heartwarming comment Josef, thank you.
Great video again Charlie. I was hoping you would do this on the DCC Concepts Powerbase. I have 4 3% inclines on my layout and have struggled to get my steam locos up the gradients without this powerbase system pulling realistic rakes. The one additional problem I would warn people about is track pins fixed in the centre of the rails as after a while the magnets can pull the pins out and actually get stuck up in the motors. I no longer have this problem as I took up all my track and relaid it using glue after watching one of your earlier videos. Once again great video and keep them coming.
A great comment John. I’m so pleased that you found a workable solution. Regards Charlie
Evening Charlie. What a fantastic demonstration in what the pit falls are for a helix 👍🏻 Never doubted that the Western would pull up the helix. They were fantastic workhorse when they ran on BR. It was my favourite locomotive of all times. The only one I didn’t see was 1058 Western Nobleman. I’ve got the model though. Not that intend having a helix but all the same I’m sure the information will help others who are in the thinking stage for a helix on their layout 🤔 Have a great weekend thanks as always Stevie.
Hi Stevie, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed this video. I’m so sorry that western nobleman slipped through your fingers, I did manage the whole class, western buccaneer 1018 being my final one. Regards Charlie
Having watched your trials regarding inclines vs loco ability, I was actually quite impressed. Your video has been very helpful...so as I build my layout and (no room for a helix) so I will try locos on a temporary incline before committing to erect the high level layout. Thank you once again. Quite how you manage to build track layout so quickly...well impressed. Between soldering droppers, and fitting fishplates (rail joiners), I seem to be achieving 30cm a day!
What a heart warmimng comment Ian. Good luck, regards Charlie.
Hi Charlie great video as always. It was interesting to see the power base in action. Bit of an issue to put the magnets in. I would expect the bachmann 9F could go up your helix unassisted. Both of mine are good for that sort of thing
Yes Matt, it flies up engine light but not so when under load. Regards Charlie.
People have been trying to get wheel spin on steam locomotives moving off for years! But seriously, two questions come to mind:
1) Why do models of steam locos have such poor pulling nowadays?
2) Whatever happened to traction tyres on model locos?
The most powerful loco my dad and I had on our layout was an ancient Marklin Hamo SNCF 2-10-0. Ignoring prototypicality, it was an immensely powerful beast, able to pull a rake of 10 Hornby Dublo BR maroons with ease (and those coaches would need a shove to get them to free run down a much steeper gradient than your helix!). The rubbish pulling power of virtually all the British outline models at the time, was one of the reasons we decided to "go continental" - at the time, only little shunters really had much problem on the inclines, and when we much later added a helix to join three levels in an extension to the layout, anything with traction tyres was able to pull a decent length train without problem. Though that Marklin 2-10-0 was still the most powerful, even 40 years later when the whole thing was broken up and sold off. Curiously that Marklin 2-10-0 was one of the few steam locos we had from the German & Austrian manufacturers that wasn't tender driven: most, apart from the tank engines, of course, most if not all, the others had the motor in the tender.
2) My märklin one´s do, some people even change wheels and put a secound pair on - do british manufactures not have those?
What an excellent comment Andrew.
Regards Charlie.
For a locomotive's ability to pull I made a test track on a hinged base 1m long and at the hinge a room handle stood up with 2 small pulleys. A length of string ran thorough the pulleys with a weight on the loose end and a loop on the track end to be hooked on the coupling. By raising the track bed on its hinge any height can be set for a known gradient and a known weight drawn, or not.
What an interesting construction David.
It's interesting to watch those different trains going around your helix and I agree it would be a good idea for manufactures to put some basic examples in the instructions of what the train can pull etc. Always look forward to your videos and I had a giggle at the result of the trains going around that helix.
I'm so pleased that you enjoyed it LangersTrains. Stay safe. Regards Charlie
Interesting experiment. Huge amount of track to gain levels.
Alan, I'm so pleased that you found the video useful.
Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie. If you have room inside you engines, you can add weights and that will provide extra traction too. Great video. Would like to see the eight engines running on the helix also.
Adding weight is something for that Atlantic loco. Regards Charlie
I'm sure someone will have mentioned it already, but any neodymium magnets you can buy off eBay or local suppliers will work too.
So if the kit magnets don't fit just buy some smaller ones and add as many as you can.
The reason I''m steering away from a helix is I'm a pre-1965 enthusiast and steam locos seem to struggle more than diesel on inclines.
It does give so much more useability in a small space though, I might have to try the gentlest possible helix in the near future.
It’s a struggle but a rewarding struggle Gerry.
Another excellent video on the spiral! How about a very short running session showing running the locos on the inside track? Interesting to see what happens up a steeper incline. Thanks as always. John
He has an interesting point John, and there is no power base either on the inside track. Regards Charlie
On your final point about drawbar performance tables, I don’t know if you remember the old Model Railway Constructor (that ceased publication in 1987) but their loco reviews always told you how many grammes the model could haul. I was also thinking about your comments about the 9F and wondered if the solution might be a Hornby Dublo three-rail type shoe that is magnetised, attached to the underside of your loco, running along a steel rail mounted in the centre of the track. The power base is attempting to recreate the magnadhesion system that Triang and Hornby developed for use with nickel-silver track, now that steel rail has gone out of fashion.
An interesting point Steve. The use of magnets on wheels disappeared many many years ago., Sadly missed. Regards Charlie
Charlie. I have been struggling with the DCC Concepts magnets without much success but you have inspired me to try again with super glue! Thanks a lot to you
Martin, I'm so pleased that you found the video useful.
Regards Charlie
Great video Charlie, I love that 9F.
Thanks Philip, the local just needs a bit of a cleanup.
I run a 4-turn 4-track helix using setrack radii 2,3,4 and a flexitrack 5. The "mainline that joins the two ends is at a constant gradient of 1 in 40 (2.5%) and includes some radius 3 (20") curves. The whole of the mainline and the two outer (up) helix tracks were laid with DCC Powerbase "just in case" as fitting it retrospectively would be almost impossible. It has proved necessary but works well. All my diesel locos can haul at least 6 coaches up the mainline and the bigger diesels can all haul 9 coaches if required without supplementary magnets. Steam locos are much more of a problem. My Bachmann 9F hauls 7 coaches without magnets but I have had to use 3 magnets on Kings, Castles and Merchant Navy pacifics to achieve the same results. Even then I have to limit the Pullman Devon Belle rake to 6 coaches. Some smaller locos require magnets (normally one) to cope with even only 3 coaches. All the magnets are superglued on but I have found it necessary to sand away the raised text of the makers name to give a suitable flat surface and I have used plasticard spacers to ensure that the magnets only clear the track by 1 mm or less. The system works well enough that I have just embarked on adding a fifth helix track on the inside (radius 1) with a gradient of 1 in 30 (3.3%). I use my helix tracks as a fiddle yard for storage and have at present 22 trains there. The extra track will expand this to 29. The Powerbase system is not a cure-all, but it does allow much steeper gradients or much heavier trailing loads than would otherwise be possible.
What a fantastic comment Graham.
What we need is a table of loco’s, their loads, curve radius, magnet quantity and incline percentage.
Regards Charlie.
Hi Charlie, a very good demo video of your helix with regard to your La France loco the brass stand off magnet carriers from DCC Concepts should overcome the problem but there is an awful lot of brake rigging etc under it. I have had to improvise with some of my old Hornby steam loco's as they are all tender drive, not very good at climbing more than a 1 in 100 which on a garden layout is useless, to be blunt, with the magnets fitted they all take the climb without a problem, the climb varies between 1 in 50 to about 1 in 25 but it is a long straight climb.
Again you have shown what can be achieved with good planning.
Thanks Peter, I’m so pleased that you found it interesting. Regards Charlie
Interesting video as ever but the maths / physics is going to make my head explode😁😁. I can see why you wanted an HST even though it doesn't quite fit your time period and that livery with the yellow warning extending down the body flanks in my opinion is the best livery. I may have mentioned to you before I was lucky enough to have an unofficial cab ride in one of the first 253 units from Paddington to I think Reading but it may have been Oxford or Didcot, I can't believe it was over forty years ago now. Keep up the good work and as you say hopefully we can now see an end to this virus. Stay safe.
Great comment Phil, thank you very much. I am somewhat envious of your HST cab ride, you lucky devil. Regards Charlie
Another great video mate
Thanks Lee, regards Charlie.
Another interesting and enjoyable video and a surprise as was not expecting one until next week. Will there be one next week or in 2 weeks time? Thank you as always for taking the time to put these together.
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Simon. I aim at every 2 weeks but if I have something that’s worthwhile I do try and upload it. Regards Charlie.
In reviving some very old locos, this proves why I have been wise to not build any gradients into my layout! Interestingly a similar idea to the DCC magnets lies in couple of old Triang Diesels from the 1960’s. These have magnets built into the motor bogies to give extra grip on the then Super 4 steel rails. Think they called it “Magnaheshion” or something?
You’re exactly right John. Regards Charlie
I’m glad the magnets didn’t foul on the track fixing screws. I have part of a return loop on an incline which one of my locos struggles with. Retro fitting the metal plates would be a major P.I.T.A though.
Perhaps adding a little weight to it might help David. Regards Charlie
Great video, this really shows how important heavy chassis and good motors are...
Maybe you should have a look at Sam's Trains loco reviews, he always measures pulling power.
Just wonder how much extra strain ther is on the locos with all these magnets.
Thanks again Charlie, keep up the excellent work and explanations!
I agree TM, this is a difficult problem.
Hi Charlie. Great video as always, I have decided to invest in some Power Base myself.
For non-scenic sections however, I will fasten piano wire on top of the sleepers between the rails, thus reducing the gap between steel and magnet. Magnetic force is roughly inverse to the distance between magnetic objects squared, so the piano wire should improve the magnetic force by approx. 4 times. (i.e. halve the distance to the magnet)
This does not increase the friction between wheel and rail by 4 times but will certainly help increase it. The co-efficient of friction of nickel on nickel (the closest I could look up) is 0.70. This means that the tractive force is 0.7 times the weight on the driving wheels.
Hope this is useful
Barry
ps The magnetic attraction is used to effectively increase the weight of the loco.
Barry
Fascinating Barry, do keep me posted.
Regards Charlie.
G'day Charlie, I am inclined to think that the magnets would make it worse as there magnetic pull on the metal strips would slow the loco down, I think that it was the extra weight of the magnets that made the loco slightly better. I would definitely be loading the loco body with extra weight but not enough to put too much strain on the motor. I can still see that "MISSING NUT" on the helix support 😂😂. You are the type of bloke that I wished lived next door, Regards, Alec.
Hi Alec, the magnets are very small and surprisingly light, but I shall try and show their effect in a later video.
Regards Charlie
Brilliant work as always. The results of your testing are great to see. Very encouraging that you can get all your locos up this incline
I loved the short pieces of the video where you had a camera inside the helix structure (eg at 7:39)
The maths for the gradient isn't too hard - it's the height of the climb divided by the length of the climb. The length of one revolution is the "two pi r" formula So gradient = height / (2 * PI * radius).
Such modesty Lee. Regards Charlie.
That's the equation that I always got wrong in school because it was taught to me like that. It's actually pi x diameter.
@@kiwitrainguy so why would you suggest "two pi r" is not correct and that the circumference is "actually pi x diameter" when I'm sure you know that the diameter of a circle is twice the radius?
@@leestoddart7014 Yes I realise that now but not back in the early '70s when I was trying to do the equation at school. I've since done it again using both methods and got the same answer. The difference now is that I can use a calculator which I did not have access to when I was at school. All I know is that when I tried doing it back then I always seemed to get it wrong but they never told me what I was actually doing wrong (which is what teaching is supposed to be all about).
That was great Charlie. Not surprised the H2 didn't make the grade (excuse the pun), as mine struggle with 8 coaches on the flat so they don't get used on my helix. I worked my helix out at 1 in 65 on the outer line and i can run pretty much scale length trains with any loco, but the older Lima stuff really does struggle. Anyways, brilliant vid as always.
Thanks PT, I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it.
OMG - Talk about Tension 😰 ........aaaand breathe ...... Gripping Stuff Charlie!! 👍🏻
I’m so pleased that you enjoyed it Donni
Those magnets and a light coat of Bullfrog Snot should totally eliminate any slipping.
I think you got pretty lucky with the magnets.
Take care.
You’re dead right Frank, I will acquire some of the bullfrog snot. Regards Charlie
Great video Charlie. I was wondering the same as others here about the keep alives. I see you haven’t equipped your locos yet with that feature. I decided to go with the Powerbase on my O-16.5 mining layout. I figured it wouldn’t hurt to take advantage of having the extra traction effort climbing a mountain. I have laid about 15 meters of Powerbase so far. I ran out of plates and had to order more.
One thing that could add to your freight operations and your steam excursion trains is to have a siding with helper service locos at the bottom of the helix. Thinking of the helix as a mountain, an older model diesel remains on the siding waiting on freight trains and steam excursion trains. The helper can come in at the front or the rear of the train to help climb the helix / grade. Once the train reaches the top of the helix and the original loco can now handle its train, the helper moves away, the original train heads off on its journey while the helper drifts back down the grade to the siding to wait for the next train. Even if your freight locos can handle the helix, this helper service would add to your operations. A friend could be the engineer on the helper loco. Of course the helper service needs loco services at the siding. Fuel tanks and a sand tower at least.
An interesting point and one which would make interesting operations. Regards Charlie
You need some OO gauge sand to put on the rails to stop the slipping. 😊😉
Or a banker
over realism ;O and I do think his wife wouldn´t like that
The worries that keep us Modellers awake at night!
Thanks for your feedback
Always welcome mate.
Hi Charlie great video over been testing my incline today going up to the helix that has not been built yet after Christmas now am okay mine are all diesel locos I do have the flying scotsman but that doesn't really come out much I've just finished yesterday my fiddle yard my boss loves you because what you have a want and he has to build it for me lol hope you and the wife have a great Christmas and hopefully have a better new year in 2021 thanks Paul
What a delightful comment Paul. And I do hope you have an enjoyable break too. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway hi Charlie yes it's because of yourself I've got back into the hobby again plus it's winter my summer hobbie is my profile picture my quad bike few months again I went into the shed and just started to pack everything away then you did a video about helixs so that got me back into it so thanks Charlie I hope one day I will get to meet you but can you do the other helix today in fact can you do the rest of you're layout within the next two weeks please lol I'll even help you ill put a mask on too lol cheers Paul
Good results to a degree. Charie.
Varying levels of success Nigel.
I know one person who uses car wheel balancing weights to add more weight to his trains that does the same thing for less cost. He just pops it open slides a few of the weights into the loco and it runs reasonably well.
And it’s certainly an option which I will try Eric
this is the video I'm looking for! if someone makes that sheet they'll have to add wheel size and amount of driven wheels too 😊
I’m so pleased that you found it useful.
I don't have a helix, but did install Power Base on 3 sections of 1in35 where trains have to restart after possible Signal Checks. My experience is such that I can confirm your own comments and those from Graham Thomson; if the magnets can be securely fitted, preferably across the axles of the driven wheels, a noticable improvement results.
Regarding your remark about a 'graph' to compare pulling power; some 15 (or even more) years ago the German "Eisenbahn Magazine" developed a standard test for measuring the effective tractive effort, at the rail, of model locos and has consistently applied it to the models it reviews ever since. (A touch more scientific than "pulled five Hornby Pullmans on the Pecorama Loft Layout"!)
By the way, I too think you are worth "a (or even two) cup of coffee a month"; even though watching (and commenting on) your broadcasts takes up precious time which could otherwise have been spent in my own railway room!
Great comment Brian.
I’ll have to buy a “Newton” gauge.
I believe that it’s little more than a spring balance. That figure, with loco details, must be worth recording and made available online. Regards Charlie
That's awesome man
Thanks, Kirby, regards, Charlie
Interesting video - many years ago, certainly in the 1960s/70's, Triang used to market locomotives with what they called the Triang Patent Adhesion System - the reason was the new plastic body loco's didn't haul as much as the old cast iron body loco's, or those competitors who still used cast bodies such as WREN - the track in those days was made out of steel (so if you got your 6x4 layout out of the loft for use in the winter, the first thing was to clean the rust off), and the "patented" system was simply as big as possible magnet in the bottom end of the loco to stick it to the track, and hence add adhension. Intersting now that someone in the modern Nickel-Silver rail days has added back the steel and magnets (and I dare say, at some cost). If there was a genius out there, they would mould a magent the same size at the piece of plastic on the bottom of the 9F, and you would simply replace one with the other. I'm not a fan of the helix (space, plus operational access issues), but I do think that not adopting your normal distributed power for a single power source in the helix is a wise operational choice - Good Luck!
You’re dead right Ian we appear to have gone in full circle. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway Nice pun there.😉
You say that you've never loved the 4-4-2 tender loco that was pulling the Pullman coaches, You can always give it to me. If you watch the video and look closely at the loco when it's wheels were slipping on the Helix, you will notice that there was no movement at all in the body. This tells me that this particular loco is running very true and its rare to see this. You normally get some body movement, even if its only very slight.
An interesting observation Sam, thanks.
Just had a bing watch of your videos Charlie 🚂🚂🚂🚂🚂
Don’t overdose Adam!
Ha ha ha to late addicted to you tube charlie
another great informative video Charlie. But i was waiting for you to glue your fingers to the magnets lol.
Sorry Mark, maybe next time!
Charlie, glad to see the helix is running, great video. For the steam loco’s, what about putting the traction ring on one set of wheels? I believe they are little black o-ring looking things. Anyway, thanks for sharing and stay safe. Ken
It has occurred to me Ken, but I think it would cause problems with pick-ups.
I seem to recall someone with a similar set up loading up the locomotive interior with some lead shot to make it heavier and provide a bit more traction. May be an option for the 9F??
An interesting point Neil, I will certainly try it out on the H1 steam loco. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, yet another informative video, going back to the explanations regarding setting up you tube channel and getting likes etc, I know that you always reply to comments which as you said is good manners basically, I have however encountered a non reply to a question on a channel ( I shall not name) who has failed to respond after 2 weeks therefore deleted. Keep up your great videos always a pleasure to watch always a thumbs up 👍 from me
It is rather sad Simon that folks can’t reply to every comment. Personally, I rarely type, I dictate my comments into my mobile phone, and it seems to work okay. If people can be bothered to leave a comment, I can be bothered to reply. Keep smiling, regards Charlie
Bonjour Charlie,
An another useful video, for sure.
As an intermediate solution, that would have been interesting to check how traction tires can help on your helix (and more generally on inclines). This seems a bit less intrusive that fixing magnets but maybe an harder task to achieve, especially on steam locos. And not taking into account that one may dislike traction tires!
Regards,
Claude
Thanks Claude. Non of my locos, manufactured within the last 15 years, have traction tyres fitted. Regards Charlie
@@ChadwickModelRailway I have understood that locos on the UK market are barely (if not at all) fitted with traction tyres (sorry for my typo in my 1st mesg!). On the other hand, on the Continent, one can hardly find a loco without such tyres (cf. Roco, Piko, Trix, Märklin, Fleischmann, etc). I would even say that the traction tyres are somehow seen as part of the "quality" of the product (no tyre = poor quality or, at least "missing feature"). Of course, one can argue about that! Is it a cultural thing? Anyway, thanks a lot for the time spent to enlight the audience! 🙂
Regards, Claude
A cool concept to be sure, but it's safe to say no magnets will be finding their way onto my locos. I would like to try them out on a helix to see how much they can pull up that sort of incline. You've got my sub for sure.
I’m so pleased that you found it interesting mate. Regards Charlie.
A way to test the pull/force of an engine would be to buy a luggage weight scale. (Make sure it is the type the luggage scale that pulls on rather than sits on.) Just tie a string to the couple box of the loco and one end to the scale. Let the loco run as far as it can until it spins in place. The weight on the scale should tell you the force it can pull. (You can do this on inclined track as well.) (If this is confusing or you want a diagram, let me know and I can send you one.)
Yes PCC, that’s exactly what a Newton’s Gauge does.
Adding weight into the Atlantic would give it more grip. That's why diesels usually haul better than steamers - there's loads of room in the body for big weights to them lots of grip. Failing that you could follow prototypical practice and either double-head her or use a banker to help her up the helix.
Good points Paula, and ones that we need to expand upon. That’s why I mention we need some kind of table for Models to use as a database. Regards Charlie
Hi Charlie, I use magnets from “first for magnets” they have some very powerful neomagnets, flat, thin and with self adhesive backs. The pull on one with the same foot as yous could be up to .36kg.
Yes Chris, and that is exactly what is supplied in the DCC concept packets.
@@ChadwickModelRailway Typical of the multiple names of things; rare Earth magnets is so much easier to type than neodymium, even if they are the same thing. But technology sells, so the complicated name (Hi-ly-moronic acid) is used as a sales technique.
I also was a bit nervous watching your locomotives hurtling toward the end of the helix (beyond which there is no track yet). Smart to have an insulated gap there. And apparently you don't have momentum set up on those locos. I have a similar situation where my access gate is located. I've installed microswitches so that the track power is disconnected a distance from the abyss when the gate is open.
The funny thing was James, the amount of people who had a heart flutter, watching it
I superglue my magnets too. It is quite effective, and superglue can be "deactivated" if they are no longer needed. The brake crossbars on your Atlantic might be suitable to glue them to, ro make this lovely loco behave.
I shall try weighing that one down first with some lead shot David. Regards Charlie