What's worse, UKIP being somewhat rational about it (proposing solutions to the problems that caused the line to be de-circled) and _The Guardian_ just hankering for a return to the "good old days" ignoring the things that made them not-so good. Very strange. Very, very strange.
I well remember as a child being instructed to take the Circle Line from King's Cross to Victoria, "that way you won't get lost" and "it won't matter if you use the wrong platform" was the rationale. TBF: the Victoria Line didn't exist, so a change was needed otherwise.
@@Quasihamster In my experience, U-Bahns suffer the same issue. Every city seems to have its own personal idea of what an U-Bahn is. And some are not sure and just call U-Bahn to anything.
@@silviasanchez648 Well they're a bit more consistant. Many systems that are commonly called U-Bahn, are NOT called that by their operators, but Stadtbahn instead. Basically these are upgraded tram networks that have a few grade-separated parts now. But then, some also think Stadtbahn is what S-Bahn stands for... that's not good either.
Most of the criticism seems to boil down to “it’s called the circle line, it should be one”. I think running on time and avoiding small delays is much more important.
It’s a bit annoying to have to change trains when you wouldn’t have to if it was a circle and it’s more confusing for those who aren’t familiar with the tube. Not saying those necessarily outweigh the benefits of the change, but there are legitimate downsides to the current setup.
Why not have both a circle and smooth running by (for example) reopening 3rd platforms at many stations, where a train can wait to even out the service? Or rename it?
@@JudgeHill I'm really not upset. Back in the 1980s, there were a lot of badly behaved drunks, especially on a Friday afternoon. It really wasn't pleasant to share a carriage with guys guzzling down beer and staggering all over the place. I was once traveling home in the same carriage as a group of women (young secretaries I assumed), who had been swigging wine from a shared bottle, When we reached Stratford, they got up to leave and one of them threw up all over the floor. They staggered out the carriage not leaving me time to get out and change carriages. I had to use the interconnecting doors to get to the next one.
This explains the memories of my first trip to London in 1996. The Circle Line was a "circle" then. Before we flew home, my son and I got on at High Street Kensington by our hotel and rode all the way around as a sort of farewell. By my next trip the Circle Line had been changed, but I didn't know that. I began to doubt my memories. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Overall the change was an improvement, but as someone who at the time regularly travelled from High St Ken to Baker Street, it was really annoying to lose the through trains and have to always change at Edgware Road, especially as Edgware Road is a pretty poor station to interchange at, being cramped and surprisingly cold in winter!
Yes, plus the fact that if you arrive at Edgware Road on a "Circle Line" train (as opposed to a District), then you'd also have to cross over the bridge!
I worked at Edgware Road signal cabin in the early 90's and remember how bad the schedules got. I remember once that there was a one under which caused massive disruption. Most of the Circle lines trains were on the southern part and they were coming in over 2 hours behind schedule with seriously upset drivers. The change, although somewhat confusing to tourists was a much needed one.
Or had previously been on one of those pub crawl parties.... TFL are a bit short of money at the mo. Perhaps they should reinstate paid for supervised parties?
When I was a kid in 1990s Madrid, our metro line 6, which had become C shaped organically over the decades, was turned into a circle line named Circular. It was a great success, because it crosses each and every single other line, meaning you can always go from A to Z with only one transfer. (Two or three transfers may be quicker, but with heavy luggage, it makes life easier). It has been the busiest metro line in Spain ever since.
My fave geeky fact about the old circle line was that, once a day, every train would apparently go off off down at Algate East or Earls Court and reverse so it would finish the day going anti-clockwise instead of clockwise. If this didn't happen, one side of the trains wheels would wear out quicker than the other!
It's not the direction of travel that's important. Going anti-clockwise by itself would still wear unevenly in the same way. It's that reversing swaps the inner and outer wheels.
Whenever I visited London I always jumped on the Circle to get wherever I needed to go. It was great as you could just hop on and go to whichever direction you wanted, if you weren't in a hurry you could go the long way! By the way I can remember when the Hammersmith & City Line was part of the Metropolitan Line, god I feel old.
They could have made it “terminate” at Edgware Road and then continue 5-10 minutes afterwards, considering the District doesn’t always go to Edgware Road
@@jerribee1 Yeah! I mean you could just call it the six line, but how confusing would that be! Northern Line, Bakerloo Line, District Line... Six Line. People would think it's a bus!
I think the "circle line" name is pretty well understood abroad as being a feature of London almost as much as the Tube in general. I don't think it needs to be changed, but I do see a sort of bottle shape in it.
Hmm, an empty bottle lying on its side - not an ideal image of London? That's on the Tube map; it looks rather different in real geography, and explains the otherwise mysterious description "eastbound/westbound"on the Circle/District Line platforms at Paddington (Praed Street, not Bishops Road).
1:33 We do something similar here in Berlin using our Ringbahn ("ring line"). You try to complete a full round by rolling a dice and riding the train for that amount of stations where you then get out and have one drink in the closest pub. It's quite tricky, and either way you'll end up pretty drunk.
I prefer it now, the trains actually turn up. The only bad part about the parties was waiting for an actual Circle line train (oh and that time they pulled us into the terminating platform at Moorgate with the plod waiting to escort us out).
Excelent episode! When I was in London years ago, when it was still a circle, I traveled a full circle on it. The train was stationary at Aldgate for I think 5-6 minutes. At the time, I was already thinking that must have been to correct potential delays, als the platforms at Aldgate were the only tracks along the route the line did not have to share.
That is correct - High Street Kensington SB & Gloucester Road WB were others. In most lines it is done by having layovers at the terminals. The Victoria line just tries to run to 'the book' with no recovery possible at peak hours. There are some means of correction involving stepping back and cancellations. Keeping to the timetable is not so critical in some was as all the trains go back to the Depot at night. On other lines the trains have to go back to the planned depot to allow the relevant maintenance to be done overnight as different facilities and resources exist at different depots
the biggest revelation of this video is the fact that UKIP actually had a plan for how they were going to do the thing they pledged to do for once. Not a good plan, but any plan at all is seriously out of character.
I think you're misjudging UKIP. I think they always have a plan - usually for something that's either irrelevant or harmful. Focusing on the nonsense of "returning the Circle Line to a circle" is just as in-character as the focus on the self-imposed economic suicide of Brexit. Marion
The worst part is that paddington is more confusing as the circle line now stops in two different stations with the same name. Hopefully the Elizabeth line unifies them. There was a way to take circle line trains in and out and that was to have them out of the blue turn into District line trains
The changes have, to an extent, shortened the legendary 'Circle Line minute', whereby a Circle Line train which was only 1 minute away used to take up to 5 minutes to get to you. Before I get shot down, I do of course understand that it's a measure of distance rather than time, but it used to be so frustrating waiting for a Circle Line train. Another wonderful video by the way. Thanks.
It’s like that line from Star Wars about how “it made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs.” And now I’m envisioning a remake of Star Wars set on the Underground.
As well as timetabling issues, running trains in a circle caused issues with the rolling stock itself: 'the fact that the constant running of trains running on a circular route used to cause problems with uneven wheel wear - one train per day is diverted from Tower Hill to Whitechapel, where it reverses and proceeds to Liverpool Street. This has the effect of running the train around.' (Bayman, Underground Official Handbook (Fifth Edition), 2000). Post 2009 and with the Circle having a terminus at each end (Hammersmith and Edgware Road), you get rid of the wheel wear issue.
Although the Circle now terminates at Edgware Road once it's gone completely around clockwise & then reverse back, sometimes they do carry on like they used to. A few years ago I was on the Circle going from High St Kensington to St Pancras & I was expecting to change at Edgware but because it was already delayed they continued it on for another loop as a means to catch up.
It's okay if the Circle Line isn't a circle. Piccadilly isn't a circus. Bubble and squeak doesn't have bubbles, nor does it squeak. And the Queen isn't Latifah. We just have to accept these things in our imperfect world.
Very interesting documentary. It's wonderful to see the London tube map referenced so much. As a long standing designer myself, Harry Beck is my design hero, and one who should be remembered the world over. I have even made a stylised stained glass window to celebrate his achievements. Best regards, Paul in Lower Boddington.
Meanwhile in Singapore our Circle Line was never intended to be a circle, starting near the centre of the city, going 'round the top to the North, then coming back down all the way to the Southern Waterfront. To complete the circle and go back to where you came from you need to change for the purple North East Line. That is until a station collapsed during construction in 2004, leading to an alteration of plans and a knock on effect on the future Downtown Line. The change was small but crucial. From Promenade Station (near the Ferris wheel and the F1 pit building), it would branch off south towards Marina Bay via the Marina Bay Sands hotel (where it would have a proper interchange with the Downtown Line, previously it was going to interchange at that collapsed station then terminate at Promenade). The gap between both sides thus decreased from 6km to just 4km. So plans to close the gap were greenlit and work began a year ago to be completed by 2025. Also the Circle Line was the first line to be built with 3-car trains, which later proved to be disastrous.
From a youngster, through to commuting as an Adult, whenever travelling on the Underground, if I saw a sign for the Circle Line, the song 'The World is a Circle' (Burt Bacharach 1973) has always sprung instantly to mind. In fact, it did again when I saw the title of this excellent clip! I'm sure that I was dropped on my head when I was a kid. I'd never realised the potential problems of it not having a terminus - although didn't Circle Line trains often wait up for long periods at Aldgate? Superb as always dear chap. 👍
Yes, Circle Line trains did wait at Aldgate - it was the only place on the line where they could have waiting time (to allow for recovery from delays) without blocking trains on one of the other intersecting lines. That's why the driver change-overs happened there too.
The joy of the circle line was the simplicity of being able to launch yourself through the narrowing gap in the closing doors, knowing you'd eventually reach your circle line destination. Even the clockwise/counter-clockwise dilemma wasn't an issue if time was on your side.
Maybe it's worth pointing out that you can of course still ride a complete journey on the old-fashioned Circle Line route, from Edgware Road to Edgware Road. It's just that you have to change trains at Edgware Road if you want to go round again.
The Circle Line was always more of a service than an actual physically separate entity. It wasn't even shown on the Tube map, in its familiar yellow, until 1949. In its current configuration I think of it as the Paperclip Line, but I doubt that'll ever catch on. As for the Central Line: while it isn't the only one through central London, it was the first, and so got dibs on the name.
Once again, great stuff! Back in the days, I used to work near Baker Street and a pal of mine and I used to go and see how far you can go on the tube in an hour’s lunch break. The answer is, not all the way around the circle line when it was a circle!
In Brussels we've got a circle line which is not circular. You see,, it starts at Simonis, makes its full circle around the city centre and ends back at Simonis, but on another floor as an overground. This line is doubled by a second one, which follows exactly the same section, but upon arrival at Simonis overground shoots up north, where it ends at Boudewijn (Heizel Stadium). At every end of a line the trains are parked on side tracks to await their next services in the opposite directions. These trains run always perfectly in time and at rush hours they run more frequently. No shared tracks with other lines. Convenient, well-organized and very successful. Cheerio, Willem
The tube line names are treated as unique names, rather than descriptions, and the British love eccentricity, so the name of Circle should be kept as a quirk of the past. And a reminder that change for efficiency must happen and nostalgia shouldn't hold it back.
@@Taschenschieber That's not going to work because the Bakerloo line is due to be extended !! Bakerloo is still relevant because it connects Baker Street to Waterloo
Brilliant as always! I like Geoff Marshall too, you're absolutely in the same league. You have an academic feel while Geoff seems more of a nerd to me! Equally good, anyway!
I Really appreciate this video! It's been a thought experiment of mine for years to wonder the pros and cons of circular networks versus linear ones, but I'd never considered delays slowing down the whole network. Thank you so much!
London: should we call it a circle, a frying pan, a spiral, a tennis racket? Oh those Tube lines, such a hassle, so many problems! Warsaw: Yay, the first line makes a cross with the second! (Proceeds to pray furiously)
American here. I finally got to visit London last year, twice! Two weeks each time. I rode the tube all over London (primarily stayed within zone 1). I rode the District Line many many times, especially on my first trip as my hotel on that trip was very close to the Gloucester Road station. Never once when waiting at a District Line station did I see a Circle Line train come through (No biggie as if I needed to get to the other side of the circle I would instead transfer to another line). On my second trip, I actually saw a Circle Line train for the first time, I think when I was boarding at Paddington, going clockwise towards St. Pancras. And then after about 2 more stations, there was an announcement that the train was now being magically changed to a Hammersmith and City line! Not a big deal for me as I was getting off soon later, before the train was to head to the east of London. That is the one and only Circle Line train I have actually seen, while I saw dozens from the Metropolitan, District, and Hammersmith lines.
I miss the circle. It was easier to navigate on those late night occasions when one's judgement is impaired! Couldn't they put a siding in to regulate it? I also miss the colour coded cars. Green for district, yellow for circle etc. It made it easier when you got to the platform as the train arrived. Eurgh, I sound so old and grumpy 😂
My city has a circle line, but it's a tram rather than rail/metro. It indeed has two termini, but they are in-line, so to speak. Big, off road four tracks loops, where tram A arrives, waits there for up to ten minutes. If tram A is on time, there's usually a tram B already waiting on a parallel track, that usually departs a minute or so after. If you have to go past those "termini", you can both remain on your tram and wait, or rush for the other one. Same thing for the counterclockwise route.
There is a circle line here in Scotland on the trains but!!!! Scotrail run it from Edinburgh Waverley over the bridge and on to Glenrothes via Kirkcaldy, then it changes headcode and runs back to Waverley via Dunfermline. So it does not show in the timetable as a circle which it is not or a through service from one side to the other. Furthermore if the train has a first class compartment you can use it with a standard class ticket! As anther comment read, it would not be Britain without the silliness.
And people here in Singapore were complaining that our own Circle Line wasn't a real circle, but had a gap and forked into two branches at one end... There's an extension under construction that will close that gap; when complete our Circle Line will form a full circle, but with a branch still in the area where it passes through our CBD.
For many years I've lived and worked at approximately diametrically opposite ends of the Circle line. For many years, one of my "get of jail free" cards was to simply to travel in the opposite direction. The Circle line is particularly affected by signal failures and other delays once rush hour has got under way and it can take some time for it to recover. After it was no longer a circle, meaning changing at Edgware Road, that option became far less encouraging: it's permanently overcrowded there with passengers changing trains. So in short, I'm not a fan of non circular Circle line, although experience has taught me exactly where to be on the platform to get a seat 99%+ of the time: hint - go to the end of the train, noting that the Circle line has one fewer carriages than the District and Met lines. However there is one big benefit to the Circle line, (as well as the District and Met): air con!
The concept of running the Circle Line through to Hammersmith wasn’t new to 2009, either. LU ran it to Hammersmith (in what was nicknamed the “Panhandle”) during Notting Hill Carnival weekends for years before that.
And on other engineering works, . Does it go back to a circle if Hammersmith section is closed for engineering? I think operationally the early and late circles were run to Hammersmith Too, though some went to Edgware road to terminate for the night.
Drivers finishing a loop at Edgware Road would strategically take a "relief break" (read: toilet), which necessitated a minimum amount of time before returning to the cab. This meant that they would not be able to return to their train in time, and it would be taken on by another driver, giving the first driver a very long break, often suspiciously close to the end of their shift. The 2009 change now means that a driver can pick up a service to Hammersmith - which rarely seems to be required any more.
In the receding depths of the twentieth century, '82 it was, the Circle Line was a warm, safe seat to sleep in after a long, cold London night spent sleeplessly at Paddington Station. It was the one line i knew for sure i could fall asleep on and i wouldn't get stranded and or lost. Then and now a warm dreamy haze of faces and places! Wistful that it is no more. 🖖
If you are coming from Paddington on the District Line you now have to change at Edgeware Road. In the days of steam they had to turn the engines to even out the wear.
I left London in 2016 and didn't use the tube much in the latter years, but better late than never, I now know why it became so irritating never being able to get on a proper Circle train that would run non-stop around east and west as they did in my youth.
One small advantage of the new arrangement is that my Paddington dilemma is sorted: If I want to go clockwise I use the station at the West end shared with the H&C and if I want to go anticlockwise I use the East end station shared with the District.
This only touches on half the scheduling problems with circular transit routes in general. Jago did say half-correctly that a train that becomes 5 minutes late on the line will keep its 5 minute delay till the end of the day. But that actually isn't true, really - it's much worse in reality. Assuming that people don't time their arrivals at the platforms to coincide with train arrivals (lets face it, no-one ever did or does, especially on the old circular Cirle Line precisely because the trains never ran on time), then the rate of arrivals on the platform can be concluded to be pretty constant over the course of an intermediate period of time (a Poisson distribution for the mathematically inclined). This means that the longer the wait for a train, the more people will have arrived on the platform, on average. This in turn means that that late train then has more people to load, which takes longer than normal. Maybe only 10 seconds or so, but still, this in turn means creating a feedback loop; the train becomes even later. And it gets 10 seconds later still at the next stop. Then another 10 at the stop after that. Etc etc etc. It doesn't take very many stops to become a delay of many minutes. Conversely, the train behind has caught up, meaning the platform between it and the slow train up ahead has less time to accrue passengers. So, that following train will have less to load and will load faster, maybe moving it up the schedule by 10 seconds per stop. So if you don't have termini, then this mechanic will result in trains bunching up behind a slow leader with empty, faster trains behind and long gaps between groups. You see the same effect on high-frequency bus routes, which is why the old adage "Wait ages for a bus and then two come along at once" has much truth to it. It's not just a saying, it actually happens, for the mathematical reasons given.
I used to refer to the Circle Line as the Circle And Line between 2009 and 2011. Still think it works quite well if a bit long winded. Would love to hear more about the plans to expand the Circle Line into multiple routes both north and south of the river, didn't quite understand but I sounds really interesting
I appreciate the explanation. I hate the fact that I now have an extra change at Edgware Road when I'm going from Kensington to Baker Street (which I do fairly frequently). I was trying to fathom a reason why this was necessary as it adds ten minutes to going one stop. Your video has given me something to think about.
All this reminds me of the Telco i worked for giving staff the new brief on product runouts 6 months after they started being sent to customers . The train system seems to run despite anyone really in control . The frontline operation staff knowing more than upper level management
Thanks for your quality ramblings. Another advantage of the present set-up is that it's far better for train crews; enabling drivers to maintain concentration is, shall we say, important. As to the name, those of us who know the tube know how it works, the maps are explicit enough, and we don't want to make life too easy for visitors, do we? Earls Court to Baker Street? Changing at Edgware Road is a small price to pay.
Friendly tip: Put related videos into the cards at timestamps where they are mentioned. It is much easier to navigate to them via TH-cam's TV APP on PLEX and other Smart TV setups. Navigating to the description on the TV and opening a link from it isn't always easy or even possible.
3:31 luckily this isn't the case for Berlins Ringbahn. Because it's a proper railway and almost entirely above ground, there are sidings all around it, so after rush hour half the trains can leave the circle and go into the sidings until next rush hour. It's also shared by other lines, but luckily the junctions are fully grade separated
The trains are operated to a schedule but, in central London at least, no passenger knows or cares what the schedule is: you just go to the station and there'll be a train in a few minutes. The only part a passenger generally cares about is when the first and last trains are. The problem with the old Circle Line ws that, because it shared tracks with other lines, messing up the Circle Line schedule would screw up the rest of the network. You don't want that because it means that trains end up in the wrong places, drivers can't end their shifts at the right time because they're in the wrong place, and the last train of the day ends up late or cancelled, so the drunk people get unhappy.
The Circle now is a circle no more, A state of affairs one can only deplore. If going to Bayswater from Baker Street, A journey one thought took 5 mins to complete, The train soon flies off at a tangent forthwith, And ends up much later at Gare Hammersmith. PAS, 2009
I remember homeless people sleeping on the Circle Line when it was a circle. Never came across a party unfortunately. Now I'm old I can't use escalators due to a vertigo problem so I love the Circle Line as I can get to so many stations on it - Victoria, Paddington, Euston, Kings Cross St Pancras, Liverpool Street, Cannon Street, Blackfriars, and Embankment for Charing Cross. And no escalators needed. It's perfect - I use it a lot!!
It's known inside LUL/TfL planning as the 'Tea Cup' - because the shape sort of looks like a tea cup - the type you find on a Thermos flask with a long open handle.
I don't go to that there London much and when I'm there I use the Piccadilly line for my particular missions. One day I had to use the Circle line and it was only by pure chance I happened to be looking at a tube map and listening to an announcement where I needed to change at the next station to continue to my destination. I changed to the train I needed and when I eventually exited the tube system I saw an Underground employee. I said something along the lines of, "That circle line isn't an actual circle. A bit misleading if you ask me." He kind of agreed and did the old shoulder shrug routine.
Is it true that the Circle Line used to run 24 hours a day in opposite directions on alternate nights? I know that the tube network has to shut down at night for maintenance and cleaning but wasn't the Circle Line kept open? I don't know where I heard this.
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It should definitely remain "the circle line". The inherent geometric contradiction in its name is too delicious to do away with.
I note the appropriateness of your avatar for this comment.
David Rutten
I note your icon is a spiral.
You do your cause no good whatsoever !!
An infinitely-large circle is indistinguishable from a line, so there's our answer.
In non-Euclidian geometry, a line may be a loop, or even a circle!.
The new name for circle line:wood lane and city line
UKIP and the Guardian agreeing on something?
Is this some parallel universe
It was also (and I believe still is) official policy for the Monster Raving Looney Party
A broken clock is right twice a day ...
What's worse, UKIP being somewhat rational about it (proposing solutions to the problems that caused the line to be de-circled) and _The Guardian_ just hankering for a return to the "good old days" ignoring the things that made them not-so good. Very strange. Very, very strange.
@@beeble2003 freaky friday
I well remember as a child being instructed to take the Circle Line from King's Cross to Victoria, "that way you won't get lost" and "it won't matter if you use the wrong platform" was the rationale. TBF: the Victoria Line didn't exist, so a change was needed otherwise.
If it wasn’t confusing or inaccurate it wouldn’t be British
Laughing hard in Germany's definitions what an S-Bahn is and then looking at what's actually being called an S-Bahn :D
We don’t do things “easily” or “accurately,” we do things Britishly and if that doesn’t bring a tear to your eye then I don’t know what will!
@@Quasihamster In my experience, U-Bahns suffer the same issue. Every city seems to have its own personal idea of what an U-Bahn is. And some are not sure and just call U-Bahn to anything.
@@silviasanchez648 Well they're a bit more consistant. Many systems that are commonly called U-Bahn, are NOT called that by their operators, but Stadtbahn instead. Basically these are upgraded tram networks that have a few grade-separated parts now. But then, some also think Stadtbahn is what S-Bahn stands for... that's not good either.
Ryan how right you are! The Underground it self is not entirely run below ground!.....nor is the Overground run entirely above ground! go figure!
Most of the criticism seems to boil down to “it’s called the circle line, it should be one”. I think running on time and avoiding small delays is much more important.
It’s a bit annoying to have to change trains when you wouldn’t have to if it was a circle and it’s more confusing for those who aren’t familiar with the tube. Not saying those necessarily outweigh the benefits of the change, but there are legitimate downsides to the current setup.
That's an awfully sensible comment. It has no place on TH-cam.
/\ This!
Why not have both a circle and smooth running by (for example) reopening 3rd platforms at many stations, where a train can wait to even out the service? Or rename it?
@@davidsmith7124 That third track wouldn't help much though if it's another circle line train waiting right behind the first one.
I am rather disappointed to learn tube parties were once a thing and never got to do one.
When central London had actual mega clubs, the circle line was a convenient way to get to them and became a bit of a roving party itself
@@JudgeHill I'm really not upset. Back in the 1980s, there were a lot of badly behaved drunks, especially on a Friday afternoon. It really wasn't pleasant to share a carriage with guys guzzling down beer and staggering all over the place. I was once traveling home in the same carriage as a group of women (young secretaries I assumed), who had been swigging wine from a shared bottle, When we reached Stratford, they got up to leave and one of them threw up all over the floor. They staggered out the carriage not leaving me time to get out and change carriages. I had to use the interconnecting doors to get to the next one.
@@RebMordechaiReviews Essex Girls, an undeserved reputation?
If a load of PhD's get on the line is it a tube of smarties?
The toilets were never up to much!
This explains the memories of my first trip to London in 1996. The Circle Line was a "circle" then. Before we flew home, my son and I got on at High Street Kensington by our hotel and rode all the way around as a sort of farewell. By my next trip the Circle Line had been changed, but I didn't know that. I began to doubt my memories. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
Overall the change was an improvement, but as someone who at the time regularly travelled from High St Ken to Baker Street, it was really annoying to lose the through trains and have to always change at Edgware Road, especially as Edgware Road is a pretty poor station to interchange at, being cramped and surprisingly cold in winter!
Yes, plus the fact that if you arrive at Edgware Road on a "Circle Line" train (as opposed to a District), then you'd also have to cross over the bridge!
I worked at Edgware Road signal cabin in the early 90's and remember how bad the schedules got. I remember once that there was a one under which caused massive disruption. Most of the Circle lines trains were on the southern part and they were coming in over 2 hours behind schedule with seriously upset drivers. The change, although somewhat confusing to tourists was a much needed one.
Plot twist: it _was_ supposed to be a circle, but the person who drew the "circle" on the map had dysgraphia.
Or had previously been on one of those pub crawl parties....
TFL are a bit short of money at the mo. Perhaps they should reinstate paid for supervised parties?
@@stuartmcconnachie And call it the Party Line.
@@jerribee1 its a brr-brr-brr-busy line.
Ooh thank you for a new word.
When I was a kid in 1990s Madrid, our metro line 6, which had become C shaped organically over the decades, was turned into a circle line named Circular. It was a great success, because it crosses each and every single other line, meaning you can always go from A to Z with only one transfer. (Two or three transfers may be quicker, but with heavy luggage, it makes life easier). It has been the busiest metro line in Spain ever since.
My fave geeky fact about the old circle line was that, once a day, every train would apparently go off off down at Algate East or Earls Court and reverse so it would finish the day going anti-clockwise instead of clockwise. If this didn't happen, one side of the trains wheels would wear out quicker than the other!
Was that really easier than twisting the track upside-down at some point?
@@PMA65537 That's a real gem! I imagine they have to do that in Glasgow too.
It's not the direction of travel that's important. Going anti-clockwise by itself would still wear unevenly in the same way. It's that reversing swaps the inner and outer wheels.
Round, like a circle in a spiral,
Like a wheel within a wheel,
Never ending or beginning
On an ever-spinning reel...
Sting. 'Windmills'. A superb song!
@@georgec2126 Michel Legrand; and yes it is a superb song.
@@aliensector Dusty Springfield: th-cam.com/video/sTpz2KSFzWs/w-d-xo.html
Whenever I visited London I always jumped on the Circle to get wherever I needed to go. It was great as you could just hop on and go to whichever direction you wanted, if you weren't in a hurry you could go the long way! By the way I can remember when the Hammersmith & City Line was part of the Metropolitan Line, god I feel old.
Congratulations Jago on 70k. Next stop 100
Pun appreciated!
Loll nice
Yes.
They could have made it “terminate” at Edgware Road and then continue 5-10 minutes afterwards, considering the District doesn’t always go to Edgware Road
I used to take an extra spin around the whole the circle if I felt like missing registration
what an absolute madlad
Cezar Catalin just was being polite. It was a stone cold bunk. Off with the tie and blazer IM SMOKING WEED BABY IM FREEEeAAaaaaAAa
😅😂🤣
How long did it take to do a full round?
@@shojinryori About 45 minutes or so.
The wine bottle looking line
Hearing “this is a southbound northern line train” makes my brain error.
brain.exe not found
*Windows 7 Critical Stop Sound*
In Chicago there's an intersection of W North Avenue and N Western Avenue. Love it.
Ah yes, the Northern Line, the Southernmost line in the tube.
I once had to go north on the northern to change to go south on the northern line (down the other branch)...
The clockwork orange line? Ah no, that's Glasgow.
Except you can actually do a full circuit of the Glasgow subway from any station
"The horizontally mirrored and rotated 90 degrees counter-clockwise six line"
Yeah, that's catchy.
@@jerribee1 Yeah! I mean you could just call it the six line, but how confusing would that be! Northern Line, Bakerloo Line, District Line... Six Line. People would think it's a bus!
...you mean a 9?
edit: nvm I'm a doofus
@@koipen We could also call it the horizontally mirrored and rotated 270 degrees counter-clockwise nine line, of course!
"Counter-clockwise"? We're not having any of that pretend English they speak in the colonies. It's "anti-clockwise".
I think the "circle line" name is pretty well understood abroad as being a feature of London almost as much as the Tube in general. I don't think it needs to be changed, but I do see a sort of bottle shape in it.
Hmm, an empty bottle lying on its side - not an ideal image of London? That's on the Tube map; it looks rather different in real geography, and explains the otherwise mysterious description "eastbound/westbound"on the Circle/District Line platforms at Paddington (Praed Street, not Bishops Road).
1:33
We do something similar here in Berlin using our Ringbahn ("ring line"). You try to complete a full round by rolling a dice and riding the train for that amount of stations where you then get out and have one drink in the closest pub.
It's quite tricky, and either way you'll end up pretty drunk.
Sounds like good fun!
I prefer it now, the trains actually turn up. The only bad part about the parties was waiting for an actual Circle line train (oh and that time they pulled us into the terminating platform at Moorgate with the plod waiting to escort us out).
Excelent episode! When I was in London years ago, when it was still a circle, I traveled a full circle on it. The train was stationary at Aldgate for I think 5-6 minutes. At the time, I was already thinking that must have been to correct potential delays, als the platforms at Aldgate were the only tracks along the route the line did not have to share.
That is correct - High Street Kensington SB & Gloucester Road WB were others. In most lines it is done by having layovers at the terminals. The Victoria line just tries to run to 'the book' with no recovery possible at peak hours. There are some means of correction involving stepping back and cancellations. Keeping to the timetable is not so critical in some was as all the trains go back to the Depot at night. On other lines the trains have to go back to the planned depot to allow the relevant maintenance to be done overnight as different facilities and resources exist at different depots
the biggest revelation of this video is the fact that UKIP actually had a plan for how they were going to do the thing they pledged to do for once. Not a good plan, but any plan at all is seriously out of character.
Chef’s kiss. 💋 👌🏽
It's pointless nostalgia, right up UKIP's alley.
I think you're misjudging UKIP. I think they always have a plan - usually for something that's either irrelevant or harmful. Focusing on the nonsense of "returning the Circle Line to a circle" is just as in-character as the focus on the self-imposed economic suicide of Brexit.
Marion
But UKIP got what they wanted... Brexit. We now have freedom from Europe, UKIP is extinct, and the UK is in terminal decline.
@@PurushaDesa you're just another Bot...
The worst part is that paddington is more confusing as the circle line now stops in two different stations with the same name. Hopefully the Elizabeth line unifies them. There was a way to take circle line trains in and out and that was to have them out of the blue turn into District line trains
5:48 "I hope you enjoyed this *well-rounded* episode of Tales from the Tube... "
I see what you did there! :-D
He does something like that at the conclusion of most videos, except on the rare occasions that he can't come up with a cheesy pun.
That was so subtle I nearly missed it.... *nearly* 😉
I love those silly puns so much
Another great video, Jago. You always give a very clear and understandable presentation 👏
The changes have, to an extent, shortened the legendary 'Circle Line minute', whereby a Circle Line train which was only 1 minute away used to take up to 5 minutes to get to you.
Before I get shot down, I do of course understand that it's a measure of distance rather than time, but it used to be so frustrating waiting for a Circle Line train.
Another wonderful video by the way. Thanks.
It’s like that line from Star Wars about how “it made the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs.” And now I’m envisioning a remake of Star Wars set on the Underground.
@@JagoHazzard Revenge of the Hammersmith and Sithy?
It's a very interesting concept, similar to the light-year being a measure of distance - the tube-minute as a measure of distance!
Marion
As well as timetabling issues, running trains in a circle caused issues with the rolling stock itself:
'the fact that the constant running of trains running on a circular route used to cause problems with uneven wheel wear - one train per day is diverted from Tower Hill to Whitechapel, where it reverses and proceeds to Liverpool Street. This has the effect of running the train around.' (Bayman, Underground Official Handbook (Fifth Edition), 2000).
Post 2009 and with the Circle having a terminus at each end (Hammersmith and Edgware Road), you get rid of the wheel wear issue.
Although the Circle now terminates at Edgware Road once it's gone completely around clockwise & then reverse back, sometimes they do carry on like they used to.
A few years ago I was on the Circle going from High St Kensington to St Pancras & I was expecting to change at Edgware but because it was already delayed they continued it on for another loop as a means to catch up.
It's okay if the Circle Line isn't a circle. Piccadilly isn't a circus. Bubble and squeak doesn't have bubbles, nor does it squeak. And the Queen isn't Latifah. We just have to accept these things in our imperfect world.
Very interesting documentary. It's wonderful to see the London tube map referenced so much. As a long standing designer myself, Harry Beck is my design hero, and one who should be remembered the world over. I have even made a stylised stained glass window to celebrate his achievements.
Best regards,
Paul in Lower Boddington.
They should call it the "circle 2.0 but actually more of a rectangle, with the Hammersmith tail extension". I think it has a nice ring to it
I vote for: And Now Something Completely Different!....
This circle doesn’t fit, it’s a little square.
A square with rounded corners.
Wonder Stuff?
Meanwhile in Singapore our Circle Line was never intended to be a circle, starting near the centre of the city, going 'round the top to the North, then coming back down all the way to the Southern Waterfront. To complete the circle and go back to where you came from you need to change for the purple North East Line.
That is until a station collapsed during construction in 2004, leading to an alteration of plans and a knock on effect on the future Downtown Line.
The change was small but crucial. From Promenade Station (near the Ferris wheel and the F1 pit building), it would branch off south towards Marina Bay via the Marina Bay Sands hotel (where it would have a proper interchange with the Downtown Line, previously it was going to interchange at that collapsed station then terminate at Promenade). The gap between both sides thus decreased from 6km to just 4km. So plans to close the gap were greenlit and work began a year ago to be completed by 2025.
Also the Circle Line was the first line to be built with 3-car trains, which later proved to be disastrous.
I remember wishing for that completion when I was there--it would have made some trips shorter for me!
From a youngster, through to commuting as an Adult, whenever travelling on the Underground, if I saw a sign for the Circle Line, the song 'The World is a Circle' (Burt Bacharach 1973) has always sprung instantly to mind. In fact, it did again when I saw the title of this excellent clip! I'm sure that I was dropped on my head when I was a kid. I'd never realised the potential problems of it not having a terminus - although didn't Circle Line trains often wait up for long periods at Aldgate? Superb as always dear chap. 👍
Was Aldgate the driver change over?
@@highpath4776 Very possibly - good call! 👍
Yes, Circle Line trains did wait at Aldgate - it was the only place on the line where they could have waiting time (to allow for recovery from delays) without blocking trains on one of the other intersecting lines. That's why the driver change-overs happened there too.
The joy of the circle line was the simplicity of being able to launch yourself through the narrowing gap in the closing doors, knowing you'd eventually reach your circle line destination. Even the clockwise/counter-clockwise dilemma wasn't an issue if time was on your side.
Maybe it's worth pointing out that you can of course still ride a complete journey on the old-fashioned Circle Line route, from Edgware Road to Edgware Road. It's just that you have to change trains at Edgware Road if you want to go round again.
The Circle Line was always more of a service than an actual physically separate entity. It wasn't even shown on the Tube map, in its familiar yellow, until 1949. In its current configuration I think of it as the Paperclip Line, but I doubt that'll ever catch on.
As for the Central Line: while it isn't the only one through central London, it was the first, and so got dibs on the name.
Brings back memories. I went to some great tube parties on the circle line!
Once again, great stuff! Back in the days, I used to work near Baker Street and a pal of mine and I used to go and see how far you can go on the tube in an hour’s lunch break. The answer is, not all the way around the circle line when it was a circle!
Congrats on 70k! Nice video by the way!
In Brussels we've got a circle line which is not circular. You see,, it starts at Simonis, makes its full circle around the city centre and ends back at Simonis, but on another floor as an overground. This line is doubled by a second one, which follows exactly the same section, but upon arrival at Simonis overground shoots up north, where it ends at Boudewijn (Heizel Stadium). At every end of a line the trains are parked on side tracks to await their next services in the opposite directions. These trains run always perfectly in time and at rush hours they run more frequently. No shared tracks with other lines. Convenient, well-organized and very successful.
Cheerio, Willem
The tube line names are treated as unique names, rather than descriptions, and the British love eccentricity, so the name of Circle should be kept as a quirk of the past. And a reminder that change for efficiency must happen and nostalgia shouldn't hold it back.
But "change for efficiency" and "nostalgia shouldn't hold it back" are alien concepts to us Brits. :-/
Its not that we English are eccentric it is that the rest of the world only thinks in straight(boring) lines.
Right, I've been saying for AGES the Bakerloo line needs to be renamed into the Elephant & Wealdstone Line.
@@Taschenschieber Bakerloo always sounds like a brand of laxative bread.
@@Taschenschieber That's not going to work because the Bakerloo line is due to be extended !! Bakerloo is still relevant because it connects Baker Street to Waterloo
Brilliant as always! I like Geoff Marshall too, you're absolutely in the same league. You have an academic feel while Geoff seems more of a nerd to me! Equally good, anyway!
I Really appreciate this video! It's been a thought experiment of mine for years to wonder the pros and cons of circular networks versus linear ones, but I'd never considered delays slowing down the whole network. Thank you so much!
For some reason, the circle line says it’s going via Liverpool Street instead of saying it goes to Hammersmith when it’s in Central London.
What I find funny is the Circle Line is better at connecting the City to Hammersmith than the Hammersmith and City line is.
I recall the London papers calling it a "Lasso" when the change was made.
London: should we call it a circle, a frying pan, a spiral, a tennis racket? Oh those Tube lines, such a hassle, so many problems!
Warsaw: Yay, the first line makes a cross with the second! (Proceeds to pray furiously)
How sbout the Noose Line?
On the map, the Circle Line looks like a bottle.
That's why hammersmith and city is always attached
American here. I finally got to visit London last year, twice! Two weeks each time. I rode the tube all over London (primarily stayed within zone 1). I rode the District Line many many times, especially on my first trip as my hotel on that trip was very close to the Gloucester Road station. Never once when waiting at a District Line station did I see a Circle Line train come through (No biggie as if I needed to get to the other side of the circle I would instead transfer to another line). On my second trip, I actually saw a Circle Line train for the first time, I think when I was boarding at Paddington, going clockwise towards St. Pancras. And then after about 2 more stations, there was an announcement that the train was now being magically changed to a Hammersmith and City line! Not a big deal for me as I was getting off soon later, before the train was to head to the east of London. That is the one and only Circle Line train I have actually seen, while I saw dozens from the Metropolitan, District, and Hammersmith lines.
I miss the circle. It was easier to navigate on those late night occasions when one's judgement is impaired! Couldn't they put a siding in to regulate it? I also miss the colour coded cars. Green for district, yellow for circle etc. It made it easier when you got to the platform as the train arrived. Eurgh, I sound so old and grumpy 😂
My city has a circle line, but it's a tram rather than rail/metro. It indeed has two termini, but they are in-line, so to speak. Big, off road four tracks loops, where tram A arrives, waits there for up to ten minutes. If tram A is on time, there's usually a tram B already waiting on a parallel track, that usually departs a minute or so after. If you have to go past those "termini", you can both remain on your tram and wait, or rush for the other one. Same thing for the counterclockwise route.
There is a circle line here in Scotland on the trains but!!!! Scotrail run it from Edinburgh Waverley over the bridge and on to Glenrothes via Kirkcaldy, then it changes headcode and runs back to Waverley via Dunfermline. So it does not show in the timetable as a circle which it is not or a through service from one side to the other. Furthermore if the train has a first class compartment you can use it with a standard class ticket! As anther comment read, it would not be Britain without the silliness.
Yeah my local railway line the Fife circle line
Don't forget the Cathcart Circle.
Subscriptions have passed 70K !
'There are historical reasons for both of these which are outside the scope of this video'. Please do tell!
And people here in Singapore were complaining that our own Circle Line wasn't a real circle, but had a gap and forked into two branches at one end...
There's an extension under construction that will close that gap; when complete our Circle Line will form a full circle, but with a branch still in the area where it passes through our CBD.
For many years I've lived and worked at approximately diametrically opposite ends of the Circle line. For many years, one of my "get of jail free" cards was to simply to travel in the opposite direction. The Circle line is particularly affected by signal failures and other delays once rush hour has got under way and it can take some time for it to recover.
After it was no longer a circle, meaning changing at Edgware Road, that option became far less encouraging: it's permanently overcrowded there with passengers changing trains.
So in short, I'm not a fan of non circular Circle line, although experience has taught me exactly where to be on the platform to get a seat 99%+ of the time: hint - go to the end of the train, noting that the Circle line has one fewer carriages than the District and Met lines.
However there is one big benefit to the Circle line, (as well as the District and Met): air con!
The concept of running the Circle Line through to Hammersmith wasn’t new to 2009, either. LU ran it to Hammersmith (in what was nicknamed the “Panhandle”) during Notting Hill Carnival weekends for years before that.
And on other engineering works, . Does it go back to a circle if Hammersmith section is closed for engineering? I think operationally the early and late circles were run to Hammersmith Too, though some went to Edgware road to terminate for the night.
@@highpath4776 reversion to original circle has indeed happened on several occasions \m/
I call it the Teacup. I was a frequent flier on it when I lived in That London. Great video as always.
Drivers finishing a loop at Edgware Road would strategically take a "relief break" (read: toilet), which necessitated a minimum amount of time before returning to the cab. This meant that they would not be able to return to their train in time, and it would be taken on by another driver, giving the first driver a very long break, often suspiciously close to the end of their shift. The 2009 change now means that a driver can pick up a service to Hammersmith - which rarely seems to be required any more.
In the receding depths of the twentieth century, '82 it was, the Circle Line was a warm, safe seat to sleep in after a long, cold London night spent sleeplessly at Paddington Station. It was the one line i knew for sure i could fall asleep on and i wouldn't get stranded and or lost. Then and now a warm dreamy haze of faces and places!
Wistful that it is no more.
🖖
When I lived in London it was a Circle; travelled all the way round once
If you are coming from Paddington on the District Line you now have to change at Edgeware Road.
In the days of steam they had to turn the engines to even out the wear.
I don't mind it not being a circle, but I do object to the signage at Liverpool Street saying "eastbound" and "westbound".
That’s almost mind-boggling in fact I think my brain is now going round in a circle LOL
I left London in 2016 and didn't use the tube much in the latter years, but better late than never, I now know why it became so irritating never being able to get on a proper Circle train that would run non-stop around east and west as they did in my youth.
One small advantage of the new arrangement is that my Paddington dilemma is sorted: If I want to go clockwise I use the station at the West end shared with the H&C and if I want to go anticlockwise I use the East end station shared with the District.
The idea of Boris Johnson banning parties and drinking alcohol on public transport has become just so hilarious.
Time makes fools of us all, it seems.
Only Glasgow knows how to do a "Circle Line" so much so we have 2 of them.
The Clockwork Orange, second oldest underground railway in the world. I used it when I visited Glasgow 2 years ago
2 circle lines in 1 place? This is britian for you. The scots are just as quirky as the english!
READYTEDDYBEAR
There's only one.You need to drink some Scotch to see two.
Drink a few bottles and the train will have a conversation with you. !!
Simon Winter No there is the "Outer Circle" that goes "Clockwise" and the "Inner Circle" that goes "Anti-Clockwise".
@@Derecq Sorry, OM; it's the 3rd oldest after London and Budapest.
Another fantastic video. Your voice is so clear, you'd be a great book narrator.
Thanks!
This only touches on half the scheduling problems with circular transit routes in general. Jago did say half-correctly that a train that becomes 5 minutes late on the line will keep its 5 minute delay till the end of the day. But that actually isn't true, really - it's much worse in reality.
Assuming that people don't time their arrivals at the platforms to coincide with train arrivals (lets face it, no-one ever did or does, especially on the old circular Cirle Line precisely because the trains never ran on time), then the rate of arrivals on the platform can be concluded to be pretty constant over the course of an intermediate period of time (a Poisson distribution for the mathematically inclined).
This means that the longer the wait for a train, the more people will have arrived on the platform, on average.
This in turn means that that late train then has more people to load, which takes longer than normal.
Maybe only 10 seconds or so, but still, this in turn means creating a feedback loop; the train becomes even later. And it gets 10 seconds later still at the next stop. Then another 10 at the stop after that. Etc etc etc. It doesn't take very many stops to become a delay of many minutes.
Conversely, the train behind has caught up, meaning the platform between it and the slow train up ahead has less time to accrue passengers. So, that following train will have less to load and will load faster, maybe moving it up the schedule by 10 seconds per stop.
So if you don't have termini, then this mechanic will result in trains bunching up behind a slow leader with empty, faster trains behind and long gaps between groups.
You see the same effect on high-frequency bus routes, which is why the old adage "Wait ages for a bus and then two come along at once" has much truth to it. It's not just a saying, it actually happens, for the mathematical reasons given.
I used to refer to the Circle Line as the Circle And Line between 2009 and 2011. Still think it works quite well if a bit long winded. Would love to hear more about the plans to expand the Circle Line into multiple routes both north and south of the river, didn't quite understand but I sounds really interesting
Jago Hazzard...running circles around all the rest.......
Congrats on your fastly growing channel.
I appreciate the explanation. I hate the fact that I now have an extra change at Edgware Road when I'm going from Kensington to Baker Street (which I do fairly frequently). I was trying to fathom a reason why this was necessary as it adds ten minutes to going one stop. Your video has given me something to think about.
All this reminds me of the Telco i worked for giving staff the new brief on product runouts 6 months after they started being sent to customers . The train system seems to run despite anyone really in control . The frontline operation staff knowing more than upper level management
I do kind of miss a circle line train arriving at Edgware Road, becoming a Hammersmith & City line service and then changing back to a circle
Thanks for your quality ramblings. Another advantage of the present set-up is that it's far better for train crews; enabling drivers to maintain concentration is, shall we say, important. As to the name, those of us who know the tube know how it works, the maps are explicit enough, and we don't want to make life too easy for visitors, do we? Earls Court to Baker Street? Changing at Edgware Road is a small price to pay.
Friendly tip: Put related videos into the cards at timestamps where they are mentioned. It is much easier to navigate to them via TH-cam's TV APP on PLEX and other Smart TV setups. Navigating to the description on the TV and opening a link from it isn't always easy or even possible.
I'm french and I don't understand this video. Can you translate this video please ?
3:31 luckily this isn't the case for Berlins Ringbahn. Because it's a proper railway and almost entirely above ground, there are sidings all around it, so after rush hour half the trains can leave the circle and go into the sidings until next rush hour.
It's also shared by other lines, but luckily the junctions are fully grade separated
1:32 nice, we've got the same in Berlin!
*Moscow metro running train every 50 secs during rush hours* You guys are getting schedules?
The trains are operated to a schedule but, in central London at least, no passenger knows or cares what the schedule is: you just go to the station and there'll be a train in a few minutes. The only part a passenger generally cares about is when the first and last trains are.
The problem with the old Circle Line ws that, because it shared tracks with other lines, messing up the Circle Line schedule would screw up the rest of the network. You don't want that because it means that trains end up in the wrong places, drivers can't end their shifts at the right time because they're in the wrong place, and the last train of the day ends up late or cancelled, so the drunk people get unhappy.
The Circle now is a circle no more,
A state of affairs one can only deplore.
If going to Bayswater from Baker Street,
A journey one thought took 5 mins to complete,
The train soon flies off at a tangent forthwith,
And ends up much later at Gare Hammersmith.
PAS, 2009
Make the circle line a circle and let the hammersmith and city go to hammersmith.
I remember homeless people sleeping on the Circle Line when it was a circle. Never came across a party unfortunately. Now I'm old I can't use escalators due to a vertigo problem so I love the Circle Line as I can get to so many stations on it - Victoria, Paddington, Euston, Kings Cross St Pancras, Liverpool Street, Cannon Street, Blackfriars, and Embankment for Charing Cross. And no escalators needed. It's perfect - I use it a lot!!
i think the confusing name has some charm to it
It used to be a circle
I've never seen as many trains unless I am in ny or London Florida only has amtrack and another one
It's known inside LUL/TfL planning as the 'Tea Cup' - because the shape sort of looks like a tea cup - the type you find on a Thermos flask with a long open handle.
I don't go to that there London much and when I'm there I use the Piccadilly line for my particular missions. One day I had to use the Circle line and it was only by pure chance I happened to be looking at a tube map and listening to an announcement where I needed to change at the next station to continue to my destination. I changed to the train I needed and when I eventually exited the tube system I saw an Underground employee. I said something along the lines of, "That circle line isn't an actual circle. A bit misleading if you ask me." He kind of agreed and did the old shoulder shrug routine.
Am I bothered by it before or now? Never. I've never been to Europe let alone the UK or even London.
I have not figured it out or accepted it, I hate it, wish it was a circle again, Rather wait for a delayed train then have to change at Edgware Road
Omg yes. Edgware Road
Is it true that the Circle Line used to run 24 hours a day in opposite directions on alternate nights?
I know that the tube network has to shut down at night for maintenance and cleaning but wasn't the Circle Line kept open?
I don't know where I heard this.
Aah, fond memories of the sound (and smell) of the old Circle/District Line ‘R’ stock.