“Memorize the notes then forget about them...play from heart.” This principle applies to many things in life...a public talk, a presentation, cooking, drawing, dancing, anything... before we become a master we must be an excellent student... there are no shortcuts
Considering this is an outstanding piece of music, I am amazed to see people saying it is not the most complicated piece to play (which is correct), but technically and texture wise it is a joy to listen to, and yes it may have been blown out of proportion, but I feel exhilarated when I listen to it. So STOP arguing over whats the hardest piece to play. The point of this movie is to take you on a journey throughout david helfgotts life, and for him it was a big achievement!!
A bit of trivia regarding the music for this part of the movie: This is the cadenza to the first movement. However Rachmaninoff was too "happy" with, believe it overshadowed the rest of the first movement, so he wrote a second cadenza, which is what most pianists now play. This version, even though in the score it's labeled as the "ossia", is actually the original. Glad they chose the original for this section, as it's way more dramatic.
I'm touched by vladimirhorowitz's angst. I routinely takes on pieces (mostly Chopin and Liszt) that are far beyond my technique. I'm familiar with never mastering them, or watching the beginning start to rust as the ending takes form! But I don't care - the journey is all of it for me. Hearing something that seems so difficult it's impossible to guess how it's done! Then reading the score, unravelling the mechanics, and feeling it take shape over the hours...it's like learning magic.
Yup. The same concept applies to all things in life. It is the essence of art. I learned it studying Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do, but later found it in everything we do.
If you analyse this scene carefully, there are number of things that are used to display Davids state of mind. First of all the Cadenza itself that David plays is definately used to show his descent into madness, if you listen carefully to it of course. I'll let you find the rest.
@BenMcCormack91 I'm a lifelong pianist and this scene was inspiring and very exciting for me. Not hilarious at all. Yeah, my teacher has never said anything about melodies jousting for supremacy but every teacher has their own style. As far as the Rach 3 being horrifyingly difficult, unless you're a prodigy...it kinda is. Not many pieces in the traditional classical repertoire match up to it in difficulty level. Prok 2, Islamey, a lot of Alkan and some others are only in its class.
@PirateTrowel i quit piano as a child and toward the end of high school i watched the movie with my mother and it changed my life. I started playing again, attended conservatory, and even though i am now a voice/choral education major I still play piano and adore it very much so. I am reading through this piece now for fun, but still have dreams of learning and performing it some day =D
Steypustjori, the movie's ending credits says it was David Helfgott who played the Rach 3 for this film. This is one of the best Rach 3 1st mov't. cadenzas ever. It rivals that of Ashkenazy's which I think is also lovely.
@Martel211996 Within the context of David Helfgott's life it does not seem so exaggerated. The relationship with his father is all kinds of messed up, and it is through Rach 3 that David thinks he can salvage his father's respect and repair the relationship. To you it's just a piece of music, to him it was much more. Obviously they dramatise it a little - IT'S A FILM - but it's the driving force behind his breakdown, so it's not an exaggeration of how much it meant to him. Watch the film again.
Regarding wMemorization of Music. To learn them first and then to forget them. That’s how many pianists memorize. It was a terrifying technique when I played. I couldn’t imagine playing a piece that difficult and at that magnitude. Jesus!
You should know that there is artisctic licence in these things in the cinema. It is for dramatic effect. And I am looking forward to you playing this straightforward piece as soloist at the Royal Albert Hall asap. Cheers.
it is difficult because of the huge chords the mans fingers were huge and the heart and soul you have to put in it to play it correctly to make it sound beutifull but who can argue what is the hardest or the best piece of music all the worlds a stage we are merrly players all music is beutifull it depends upon your level of crafstmanship
@Dragonsforever05 "The film Shine has come in for strong criticism from Helfgott's siblings for a range of inaccuracies, particularly for the portrayal of his father as a tyrannical despot."
@BenMcCormack91 I think the same on the teacher work and how far a man can reach but my perception about the words of the Helfgott teacher is encourage or inspirit to him since he knows David can do it .
I had played a lot of Rachmaninov pieces before, and I sight-read through the scary "Rach 3" too. Now if I were the professor of Helfgott at the Royal College of Music, I would say...... "OK.....as the first climax on the A pedal point goes in, notice how the "tirade-like" upward thirds in the chords crescendo first into the F major key center...... Now, even more cresecendo in the second climax------leading to the A minor key. Same explosive 3rd tirades in the chords...... Now, a much bigger crescendo now........think as if this is judgment day approaching...impending doom.....unrelenting hell.......here.......... And as the climax on broken sixteenth notes explode out, lead that to the biggest lead-up to the grand reprise of the 1st theme you heard before!!!!" Rachmaninov piano music buffs know this as "the Rachmaniov 3rd". One note quickly leading to a leap up a 3rd or down a 3rd to the next note, usually an octave or a chord, with the last second note strongly accented.
no, it's rafael orozoco. And this is a fiendishly difficult piece, no matter what sirglickness says. Of course there are lots of graduate students running around who can play it; fingerbusters are everywhere, but that doesn't make the task of learning it any less formidable. Nothing to sneeze at to be sure. I do have to agree with you about the real helfgott's playing; schizophrenia and years away from the piano really took their toll. Wonderful movie, though; one of my favorites.
Absolutely. The second part of my comment really is about just that - bending reality is necessary for film, even in films that attempt to be "realistic." You have to fit someone's life into a linear plotline that lasts two hours; literal realism doesn't fit the bill.
@Vesivian Getting up to any given skill level - be it a skill level where you are comfortable with Bach inventions, or a skill level where you are comfortable with Rachmaninoff concerti, is always a matter of work. There's nothing magical about that. Give me enough time and I could teach any person in decent physical and mental health how to play the piano with control and accuracy. Getting someone to be creative about it is the hard part.
I have a question about the recording of Rachmaninov PC3 on Shine. Who es the pianist? Helfgott? and the orchestra and the director? The CD of Shine only info about 'various artists' ...
I'm just wondering..... Who, among the complimenters and the complainers have watched this clip or other clips of the young man playing David Helfgott ??? Now go and watch, (either a clip or the entire movie) Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and take a long look at Charlie's dad. He is the same actor as this young man featured in the above clip, Noah Taylor
@emilioarroyomohamed Sorabji wrote many other pieces that are far more difficult than Opus Clavicembalisticum. I think Opus Archimagicum and the 2nd Symphony for Orchestra (which was abandoned and left as a piano piece) are the two hardest pieces by Sorabji.
Well, n the movie there are two versions. The first cadenza Rach wrote is shorter, this one displayed is the ossia vesion. You can search rach 3 ossia on the internet.
I didn't criticize them for playing it. In fact, I acknowledged it's a really hard piece. My comment was about the ineffectiveness of fear as a motivator. If you want to have a discussion with me about that, you're welcome to. As such, you're wasting your time preaching to the choir, because I never said I could play it. Moreover, if I could play it, I would play it, not tell you I can play it.
but im interested to know if you feel you have mastered some pieces despite the acknowledgement you were unable to improve on a basic literacy of others. tim
It's all relative, really. If you've got every technical element of piano playing firmly in the bag, most pieces won't be much of a physical challenge. On the other hand, though, plenty of technically-simple pieces take a lot of musical (interpretational) work - simply deciding how the piece works and how you want it to sound. In that sense, one of the hardest things can be learning a new, unperformed piece - you have little precedent, and have to make every performance decision on your own.
I think that if someone were to spend a year or two learning just one song, spending hours per day, they would be able to play it. BUT they wouldn't be able to play it like someone with true talent can.
This is Rafael Orozco playing? Whoever it is, how refreshing, actually, to hear this section played somewhere within the written rhythmic framework, at the alternating bass and treble duplets and at the triplets (fff - "big fat chords"), for example. As a bonus, you can actually hear the notes and harmonies. Too often "rubato" and "performer's license" take the form of utter rhythmic anarchy, resulting in a caricature, or an obliteration, of portions of the music.
I can guess what you think! Anyway, it's a part of the narrative. I am a lawyer and know how is silly to watch to courtroom scenes, even if I simply know that the reality wouldn't be as attractive and passionate like this scene!
@joanfergovideos I didn't say the piece wasn't difficult. The words "Rachmaninov's third isn't difficult" are in there, but they're spaced out by several other words and surrounded by six other sentences. Those other words/sentences do, in fact, alter and supplement the meaning of my point in ways that, using the critical reading skills you learned in elementary school, can be made perfectly clear with a little extra thought. I'm done arguing about this. Solve it yourself.
@prefix331 I never said, that Opus Clavicembalisticum is more difficult than Rach 3. But I would certainly think that Alkan wrote far more difficult stuff than Rachmaninov.
@Vesivian Your comment does nothing other than take one of my sentences and negate the linking verb. I can respond by explaining a little more of my perspective, but if you're going to disagree with me, give me information rather than verb conjugation. My comment assumed a few things; chiefly, it assumed that if a player studies a piece methodically, identifies sections that are difficult and works on the techniques required to play them, learning any piece is just a matter of time.
@vladimirhorowitz and he doesnt care about how it is received. He wrote music kean with his heart in total isolation and was extremely productive. If you actually look into the stuff, you will also discover the vastness of his natural sound language, his mature sence of harmonic disposition which is familiar with Scriabin, his love for random sound yet it isnt theorized as Astronische Musik or serialism but it is from an honest human life, a life of an exceptionally awakened isolated being
No. I quit the piano because it made me miserable to know that I would never be able to compete in the concert circuit and play at a professional level. Even when I was fully devoted to the instrument and spent every waking moment practicing or researching technique and the like, I never felt that I had mastered any piece.
Now imagine being able to compose something like the Rach 3. Damn that gives me shivers just thinking about it.
The technical level is nuts. But my god the melodies/themes are out of this world.
“Memorize the notes then forget about them...play from heart.”
This principle applies to many things in life...a public talk, a presentation, cooking, drawing, dancing, anything...
before we become a master we must be an excellent student... there are no shortcuts
"It's a mountain; the hardest piece you could Everest play"
Never caught that
Except Everest is not the toughest mountain, K2 is
don't you just love those big fat chords!
...those Commie brothers can't deny... lol
2:46 :D
Fantastic scene, I love it when the teacher and his pupil sing along together
A mi también
John Gielgud was fantastic!! Can’t imagine he was 92 years old at that moment!
Considering this is an outstanding piece of music, I am amazed to see people saying it is not the most complicated piece to play (which is correct), but technically and texture wise it is a joy to listen to, and yes it may have been blown out of proportion, but I feel exhilarated when I listen to it. So STOP arguing over whats the hardest piece to play. The point of this movie is to take you on a journey throughout david helfgotts life, and for him it was a big achievement!!
1:22 the seamless transition from the sound of a grand piano to that of a worn upright is such an amazing detail ❤ love this movie.
what an extraordinary movie
YES!
gul'dan xd
nrith the my best Movie.
ABSOLUTELY LOVED (and still do) THIS MOVIE!!! Highly recommend it.
2:12 You have to given them recognition for that; not many film makers even bother with something like that.
I'm not sure what you mean.
@kainoamh He meant the "pom-pom" singing excercise they trained the unmusical actors to do 🤦🏻♂️
"Am I mad enough, professor?" Hahaha .... amazing!
A bit of trivia regarding the music for this part of the movie:
This is the cadenza to the first movement. However Rachmaninoff was too "happy" with, believe it overshadowed the rest of the first movement, so he wrote a second cadenza, which is what most pianists now play.
This version, even though in the score it's labeled as the "ossia", is actually the original. Glad they chose the original for this section, as it's way more dramatic.
I'm touched by vladimirhorowitz's angst. I routinely takes on pieces (mostly Chopin and Liszt) that are far beyond my technique. I'm familiar with never mastering them, or watching the beginning start to rust as the ending takes form! But I don't care - the journey is all of it for me. Hearing something that seems so difficult it's impossible to guess how it's done! Then reading the score, unravelling the mechanics, and feeling it take shape over the hours...it's like learning magic.
Funny how after this movie EVERYONE was mad enough to attempt the Rach 3 all of a sudden. Rachmaninoff would be flattered I think.
best scene of the movie (and what a GREAT movie)
Thanks for uploading
Yup. The same concept applies to all things in life. It is the essence of art. I learned it studying Bruce Lee's Jeet Kune Do, but later found it in everything we do.
Thank you, amazing recreation of the moment, i love this scene
It's not a "recreation", it's a scene from the movie, idiot!
amazing movie!
Terrific!
I love Rach and ths movie!!
My piano hero! 🎼💚
Great movie!!!!Strongly recommend!
genius awesome and wonderful
Rachmanninov and Helfgott
Just classssssy and master piece ! ♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️♥️
Foreign idiot
If you analyse this scene carefully, there are number of things that are used to display Davids state of mind. First of all the Cadenza itself that David plays is definately used to show his descent into madness, if you listen carefully to it of course. I'll let you find the rest.
@BenMcCormack91 I'm a lifelong pianist and this scene was inspiring and very exciting for me. Not hilarious at all. Yeah, my teacher has never said anything about melodies jousting for supremacy but every teacher has their own style. As far as the Rach 3 being horrifyingly difficult, unless you're a prodigy...it kinda is. Not many pieces in the traditional classical repertoire match up to it in difficulty level. Prok 2, Islamey, a lot of Alkan and some others are only in its class.
"Don't you just love those big fat chords?" - why yes, yes i do.
Had the privilege of working on the legal contracts to finance this film when I interned at New Line Cinema back in 1996.
Context is everything....
@PirateTrowel i quit piano as a child and toward the end of high school i watched the movie with my mother and it changed my life. I started playing again, attended conservatory, and even though i am now a voice/choral education major I still play piano and adore it very much so. I am reading through this piece now for fun, but still have dreams of learning and performing it some day =D
1:18 - I do that when I'm trying to figure out complex piano/guitar music.
Strengthens your fingers up nicely too :)
genius movie.
I had to be placed in a hospital's emergency ward for 3 months as a result of trying to play this. Every bone in my body was broken.
Best scene in the film! Don't you just love those big fat chords?
Steypustjori, the movie's ending credits says it was David Helfgott who played the Rach 3 for this film. This is one of the best Rach 3 1st mov't. cadenzas ever. It rivals that of Ashkenazy's which I think is also lovely.
He’s so handsome (the young David). His hands. His damn beautiful hands.
The hands of giants. Ten fingers each!
@Martel211996 Within the context of David Helfgott's life it does not seem so exaggerated. The relationship with his father is all kinds of messed up, and it is through Rach 3 that David thinks he can salvage his father's respect and repair the relationship. To you it's just a piece of music, to him it was much more.
Obviously they dramatise it a little - IT'S A FILM - but it's the driving force behind his breakdown, so it's not an exaggeration of how much it meant to him. Watch the film again.
"Don't you just love those big fat chords? "
-Rachmaninoff
great Rach!!
Great Rach!! It is monumental!!!
Regarding wMemorization of Music. To learn them first and then to forget them. That’s how many pianists memorize. It was a terrifying technique when I played. I couldn’t imagine playing a piece that difficult and at that magnitude. Jesus!
Melhor cena do filme
Don't you just love those big fat chords!
“Don’t you just love those big, fat chords?!?!?!”
Esse filme é lindo demais
great, could you play the clip where he plays flight of the bumblebee thanks for sharing
Mad! Mad! Mad! I tellya! (Soo intense!)
❤❤❤❤
You should know that there is artisctic licence in these things in the cinema. It is for dramatic effect. And I am looking forward to you playing this straightforward piece as soloist at the Royal Albert Hall asap. Cheers.
@BenMcCormack91 Urm no. Rachmanioff's third is exactly as horrifyingly-difficult as he makes it out to be. Just take a look at the score.
wow.that old teacher is so cool.i mean the way he speaks.going to be real cool if he teaches me.
Brilliant performance by Sir John Gielgud! Not sure about the music though.........
"rach isn't horrifying, no teacher talks like this." I think I summed up everything here.
@BenMcCormack91 Please, show all of us how you play this piece. Please. Looking forward to it.
it is difficult because of the huge chords the mans fingers were huge and the heart and soul you have to put in it to play it correctly to make it sound beutifull but who can argue what is the hardest or the best piece of music all the worlds a stage we are merrly players all music is beutifull it depends upon your level of crafstmanship
@zinnia001 is really true , for all that we play some classic instrument, inconsciously we do that, but seeing the movie we realised it
i love godiva
@Dragonsforever05 "The film Shine has come in for strong criticism from Helfgott's siblings for a range of inaccuracies, particularly for the portrayal of his father as a tyrannical despot."
@BenMcCormack91 I think the same on the teacher work and how far a man can reach but my perception about the words of the Helfgott teacher is encourage or inspirit to him since he knows David can do it .
I had played a lot of Rachmaninov pieces before, and I sight-read through the scary "Rach 3" too. Now if I were the professor of Helfgott at the Royal College of Music, I would say......
"OK.....as the first climax on the A pedal point goes in, notice how the "tirade-like" upward thirds in the chords crescendo first into the F major key center......
Now, even more cresecendo in the second climax------leading to the A minor key. Same explosive 3rd tirades in the chords......
Now, a much bigger crescendo now........think as if this is judgment day approaching...impending doom.....unrelenting hell.......here..........
And as the climax on broken sixteenth notes explode out, lead that to the biggest lead-up to the grand reprise of the 1st theme you heard before!!!!"
Rachmaninov piano music buffs know this as "the Rachmaniov 3rd". One note quickly leading to a leap up a 3rd or down a 3rd to the next note, usually an octave or a chord, with the last second note strongly accented.
yea it is. its also one of the hardest parts. have you seen the score for that part?
no, it's rafael orozoco. And this is a fiendishly difficult piece, no matter what sirglickness says. Of course there are lots of graduate students running around who can play it; fingerbusters are everywhere, but that doesn't make the task of learning it any less formidable. Nothing to sneeze at to be sure. I do have to agree with you about the real helfgott's playing; schizophrenia and years away from the piano really took their toll. Wonderful movie, though; one of my favorites.
Shine is up there with Amadeus as an incredibly engrossing musical journey.
I'm not sure if Whiplash is at that level.
Whiplash is just tiring.
@@magetaaaaaa vruh
@@magetaaaaaa stfu that movie is fucking fantastic
As I said above: in films it is artistic licence. The filmmakers know they are not totally accurate. It is for dramatic effect.
Absolutely. The second part of my comment really is about just that - bending reality is necessary for film, even in films that attempt to be "realistic." You have to fit someone's life into a linear plotline that lasts two hours; literal realism doesn't fit the bill.
@Vesivian Getting up to any given skill level - be it a skill level where you are comfortable with Bach inventions, or a skill level where you are comfortable with Rachmaninoff concerti, is always a matter of work. There's nothing magical about that. Give me enough time and I could teach any person in decent physical and mental health how to play the piano with control and accuracy. Getting someone to be creative about it is the hard part.
I wish I had a neighbour like him....
Henrik Rónai I’m that neighbour to my neighbours lol. (Different mental problems though).
I'm learning it and my neighbours hate me. No joke. They complain to the landlady and have written letters to the estate agents 😔
Dont you just love those big fat Chords!?
Who is playing the piano in this marvelous scene?
I have a question about the recording of Rachmaninov PC3 on Shine. Who es the pianist? Helfgott? and the orchestra and the director? The CD of Shine only info about 'various artists' ...
Can anyone tell me what language the subtitles are in???
I am thinking maybe Portuguese ???
Any help in this is greatly appreciated.
What are the hardest pieces to play on the piano?
@BenMcCormack91 your comment is like the blond man with the cigarrete whos laugh of Helfgott when he plays the Bumble bee...
I'm just wondering.....
Who, among the complimenters and the complainers have watched this clip or other clips of the young man playing David Helfgott ???
Now go and watch, (either a clip or the entire movie) Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and take a long look at Charlie's dad. He is the same actor as this young man featured in the above clip, Noah Taylor
@emilioarroyomohamed Sorabji wrote many other pieces that are far more difficult than Opus Clavicembalisticum. I think Opus Archimagicum and the 2nd Symphony for Orchestra (which was abandoned and left as a piano piece) are the two hardest pieces by Sorabji.
lol "people get hurt!"
I knew it was Rach #3 my friend Ginny said Rach #4, I'll still pick up the tab next date
love marybeth
1:25 which bar of which movement is this? And could you note me at what time in minutes that bar aproximately starts?
that is the ossia cadenza of the first movement. You'll know where it starts when u see the score believe me :D
+Johann Sebastian Bach I've found it thanks. damn even for Rachmaninoff that part is goddamn beast to play.
i didn't find it
Well, n the movie there are two versions. The first cadenza Rach wrote is shorter, this one displayed is the ossia vesion. You can search rach 3 ossia on the internet.
Does anybody know which is the most difficult piece ever written? For piano
I didn't criticize them for playing it. In fact, I acknowledged it's a really hard piece. My comment was about the ineffectiveness of fear as a motivator. If you want to have a discussion with me about that, you're welcome to. As such, you're wasting your time preaching to the choir, because I never said I could play it. Moreover, if I could play it, I would play it, not tell you I can play it.
but im interested to know if you feel you have mastered some pieces despite the
acknowledgement you were unable to improve on a basic literacy of others. tim
Rach 3 is not the hardest piece ever but you do have to be on an insane part of the bell curve to play it
He called it hardest piece because his father called it that. Have you seen the movie?
Killah841 Yeh
ɷɷɷɷ I Have Watchedddd Thisss Movieee Leakedd Versionnn Here : - t.co/EQMyZQlo5e
One off the hardest prices
hey Corelli wassup ma man
young locke
@andrewzador
Mah...
“Rachmaninoff? Are you sure?”
“Well I’ve been playing simplypiano for three days so um. Yes.”
It's all relative, really. If you've got every technical element of piano playing firmly in the bag, most pieces won't be much of a physical challenge. On the other hand, though, plenty of technically-simple pieces take a lot of musical (interpretational) work - simply deciding how the piece works and how you want it to sound. In that sense, one of the hardest things can be learning a new, unperformed piece - you have little precedent, and have to make every performance decision on your own.
Geoffrey Rush?
3:01 Muhahahahahah
I think that if someone were to spend a year or two learning just one song, spending hours per day, they would be able to play it. BUT they wouldn't be able to play it like someone with true talent can.
he broke the piano string?! cool.
This is Rafael Orozco playing?
Whoever it is, how refreshing, actually, to hear this section played somewhere within the written rhythmic framework, at the alternating bass and treble duplets and at the triplets (fff - "big fat chords"), for example. As a bonus, you can actually hear the notes and harmonies. Too often "rubato" and "performer's license" take the form of utter rhythmic anarchy, resulting in a caricature, or an obliteration, of portions of the music.
I can guess what you think! Anyway, it's a part of the narrative. I am a lawyer and know how is silly to watch to courtroom scenes, even if I simply know that the reality wouldn't be as attractive and passionate like this scene!
@joanfergovideos I didn't say the piece wasn't difficult. The words "Rachmaninov's third isn't difficult" are in there, but they're spaced out by several other words and surrounded by six other sentences. Those other words/sentences do, in fact, alter and supplement the meaning of my point in ways that, using the critical reading skills you learned in elementary school, can be made perfectly clear with a little extra thought.
I'm done arguing about this. Solve it yourself.
@prefix331 I never said, that Opus Clavicembalisticum is more difficult than Rach 3. But I would certainly think that Alkan wrote far more difficult stuff than Rachmaninov.
@Vesivian Your comment does nothing other than take one of my sentences and negate the linking verb. I can respond by explaining a little more of my perspective, but if you're going to disagree with me, give me information rather than verb conjugation.
My comment assumed a few things; chiefly, it assumed that if a player studies a piece methodically, identifies sections that are difficult and works on the techniques required to play them, learning any piece is just a matter of time.
I dunno, Rach 3 is very hard, Can you play it?
@vladimirhorowitz and he doesnt care about how it is received. He wrote music kean with his heart in total isolation and was extremely productive. If you actually look into the stuff, you will also discover the vastness of his natural sound language, his mature sence of harmonic disposition which is familiar with Scriabin, his love for random sound yet it isnt theorized as Astronische Musik or serialism but it is from an honest human life, a life of an exceptionally awakened isolated being
No. I quit the piano because it made me miserable to know that I would never be able to compete in the concert circuit and play at a professional level. Even when I was fully devoted to the instrument and spent every waking moment practicing or researching technique and the like, I never felt that I had mastered any piece.