The Problem with Joel’s Death | The Last of Us 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 เม.ย. 2022
- An examination into the narrative flaw behind The Last of Us 2’s most controversial scene.
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My biggest issue is we're supposed to empathise with abby and yet : Joel saves her life 5 minutes before she kills him,forces his daughter to watch and then gets shitty when Ellie wants payback,especially since she knew what would happen to Ellie dying on the table
I don't think you're "supposed" to empathise at all. The game wants you to actively hate Abby and later serves as an experiment on whether or not you can get over your hatred once you're familiar with her arc and backstory. Objectively, Joel and Ellie aren't nicer or better people.
In the end, you're left with the same choice Ellie has (although you don't get to make it). You either want Abby or die or you now believe there's been enough violence and that it needs to end.
@@karlcharron3350 yep, it's the moral dilemma. Most people would want abby dead, even with realizing Joel was the villain in abby's story. It's the power of perspectives and reflecting on the consequences of your future choices
No. You're not supposed to empathize with Abby. Your hatred for her in the beginning is exactly what the writers want. You're seeing this from Ellie's perspective only. She doesn't know who Abby is, so neither does the player.
It's only after you've slaughtered WLF and you learn Abby's motive, then it's up to you as a player whether or not to forgive her. Ellie forgives her, yes, but this is still Ellie's story, not the player's.
@@karlcharron3350 Even if Abby lost her father cause Joel killed him. I still hate Abby more cause Joel was actually a good character, Abby on her own didn't feel like a good fleshed out character, she felt like a bland character who was only there for the revenge plot to happen. And yes Joel isn't a hero, but his actions are understandable and i can still empathise with him, he literally lost everything that he loved, especially his daughter so when Ellie was about to get killed by the surgeons, Joel didn't wanna lose a "daughter" ever again.
@@hughjaenus2235 its fine to like Joel more, the interesting part of these characters (Him, Abby, Ellie, Tommy) isn't that they're "good guys" but that they are good people put into shitty situations where they have to make uncomfortable choices
They all have their perks and stories that people empathise with
We're not told Tommy changed his mind. He's shot in the face by Abby and she killed Jesse. That's why he changed his mind.
Lol fr
No, the plot changed Tommy's mind. Just like it changes Ellie's mind every 2 seconds for no reason. Because it's garbage.
@ifly fsx if this was a real story with real people, would it be the "plot" that changed their minds? You just don't like the story.
@@floydbanks7 If this was real life with real people, Joel and Tommy would not have turned into complete morons instantly for the sake of the story. The WLF would not leave Ellie and Tommy alive. Etc.
@@miller-joel not true lol they were only there for Joel , Owen literally stopped them from killing Ellie too because he says “ we wouldn’t be any better than him” so he’s indicating how bad Joel was in pt. 1 , it’s all about perspective
I honestly think what they could've done is have ellie go on a unexplained rampage to get to Abbie with Joel as your companion that does virtually nothing but question the morality of what she's about to do only to reveal half way that he died and that Ellie watched it unfold. And even have Abbie realize killing Joel didn't make her feel any better inside than it should've. Would've made it better imo
I’ll give u that
That’s a good one
This is actually a really good idea
So Joel’s death made her go literally insane, nah.
@@victordove9891 your right, it's not perfect. What would you change?
@@professormanstein nothing, I thought the story was great. Joel had to go out horribly for the audience to see, for the story of vengeance to make sense and feel right. His character arc was complete.
I disagree about a revenge plot being better then just following cliffhanger of part 1. Imo there were alot of things in air that got completely forgotten, Im much more interested in focusing on ellie and joel's relationship post lie, while trying to figure out what to do with the ONLY KNOWN IMMUNE PERSON then a revenge that "forgot" about the cure, the world, and just focused solely on revenge. quite boring to me.
Yes, maybe that's what was also frustrating to people. The Last of Us as a story changed completely, and even if the story for the second game wasn't a bad idea, it didn't make sense as a sequel to what we already had.
I agree somewhat, but this revenge story was told so we'll, I couldn't help but love it. I do hope they return to some sort of story for fixing the world in the next game though.
@@notben4140 Yup, it went from a standard naughty dog third person shooter but in a zombie apocalypse to deliver Ellie but after they survived the cannibal community (among other stuff) they formed a bond, then the crazy ending happened where he just ends a whole organization because he is THAT GUY and we are FORCED to kill a scared surgeon, we could have shot his hands or arm but no we don't get a choice *5 years later* he is NOT that guy anymore (even tho he survived for 20 years) because he was on vacation from the post apocalyptic city life for 5 years....then he gets his face caved in by a golf club by apparently the daughter of the surgeon....sure, makes total sense, even tho we went through fire fly goons like a bowling ball through pins, such a stupid story
Yeah, I wished they explored the world a bit more, kinda RPG style, maybe Ellie is kidnapped or her girlfriend and they get pulled into slaver territory near a beach and we repeat the bonding Ellie and Joel had with each other but it's her Girlfriend instead and she's teaching her just how brutal you have to be to survive.
Meanwhile Joel is always a step behind her and eventually realizes where she's going and his brother makes a friend from that area and they plan to catch up quickly but through a dangerous shortcut where WLT or whatever Abbie's organization is killing everyone and he saves the kid and he keep getting flashbacks of Ellie while protecting the kid and trying to reach Ellie, maybe his brother dies...maybe he dies saving the boy, Ellie also takes the same shortcut and reunites with Joel or his party and they make their way back to their community while Ellie's Girlfriend is struggling with morning sickness and all the pregnancy stuff that can happen in the first couple of months.
Part 3 or maybe same game they get WLT on their doorstep looking for them and they will either get exiled or protected and will have to start a new journey either into the WLT territory to subdue them or look for a new home further away from the north or wherever TLOU 2 was set in.
Also, just because Joel's character development was "done" doesn't mean that there's no reason to keep the character around. Character development isn't the end all be all, sometimes characters are kept around because they are interesting, and Joel was a very interesting and compelling character.
RDR1 has the best video game protagonist in video games and he doesn't have any character development throughout the whole story. It's just a relatable, interesting character trying to carry out a mission and interacting with the people and the world around him, and it's enough to make the story very engaging.
I remember Bill saying in the first that Joel wouldn't make it just before they part ways,that's because in a realistic point of view nobody is safe.
Bill was wrong. Joel obviously did make it. All the way to the hospital, through the hospital, and back to Jackson. He just couldn't survive Neil's writing.
@@miller-joel
Touche my friend.
@@miller-joel hahahhahahhahahahahahahhaaha this comment
All this is fine and dandy in a book or videogame. However, if we're following the rules of the Hollywood universe, wherein the biggest draw is "safe" (Daryl Dixon, Michonne, Negan, etc) then they need to kill Joel either in the end (Logan) or in the middle of the story. The majority of viewers are gamers rooting for Joel, and many didn't like Ellie or Abby. All that is irrelevant. The higher ups, are going to want the biggest draw for more seasons....my point is solidified by the fact that Logan is back.
Again even Kirkman had to lie to fans and say even Daryl wasn't "safe"...the reality; the board room of people offering him more money to keep him alive for his own series, made sure that Daryl was basically Snake Plisken in TWD. It basically all depends on if Duckman wants more money. Kirkman was already a millionaire who didn't need to keep anyone alive....that didn't turn out how anyone had hoped...and yes, even GRRM kept Jon Snow safe.
@@miller-joelDude
You’re not understanding the context behind the words “not going to make it” he didn’t mean literally that Joel and Ellie wouldn’t make it to the hospital and back to Jackson. He meant in general terms. That Joel would die eventually and he did.
i just bought the game and this popped up in my recommended 💀
Yeah it's a terrible game.
@@CR7GOATofFootball tasty tears
@@Monstert_ you enjoyed two dudes banging each other?
Fun fact: Neil cukman Motion captured that scene himself
@@CR7GOATofFootball Actually it is a matter of viewpoint, I think that the game was just fine, and I enjoyed it as much as I enjoyed the first game.
@@Monstert_ shitty game will always be a shitty game
Tommys change of heart was a good twist in my opinion. Right before they were getting ready to leave, he gets ambushed, beaten, takes a arrow to the knee and a bullet through the eye. Suddenly he lost his mobility and marksmanship, then he gets home to be dumped by Maria. He's crippled, bitter, alone and still guilty over Joels death. He showed a very human reaction to his sufferings. He probably resents Ellie a little because she came home fine (physically) and still has a loving home to welcome her. Tommy's tragedy rivals Ellie's but is just hidden in the background. I really hope TLOU2 has a Tommy dlc showing his Seattle days with flashbacks of him and Joel, similar to how Left Behind was structured.
Thats nice and all, but it still doesnt make sense that he would sick Ellie on his enemies like a dog. At that point, it makes zero sense for the characters to pursue this anymore, other than the game needing to continue.
Tommy used to be a adventurer like you, but then he took an arrow to the knee.
I dont think we Will get a part three with the same characters.
Ellie; Is depressed and alone, but phisically meh
Dina; nobody fucking likes her
Tommy; he became old and fragile, he has a blown Eye and a messed up knee, i Guess he would still be able to use a sniper but idk.
JJ; maybe in a possible future we Will get his story, but what Will he do? Avenge Who? Maybe Jesse, but he doesnt even know him enough (hes dead) to love him, so i dont know
Abby; i dont hate her, but i dont like her, also we played her for half of the game already, She was practically more main character than Ellie
Little Elf Veteran (L.E.V) i (everybody) fucking hates her (or him whatever)
I think it would’ve been deeper if this event made Tommy double down on his original decision. He should’ve convinced Ellie that it wasn’t worth it anymore and to hope she would meet her demise on her own. If you think about it, that’s what would’ve happened if not for Ellie
Killing main character is not wrong unless you cant fill his place.
They need to get a fitting death. Not neccesarily a heroic death. But something that makes sense for the character and the world. The opposite of what they did with "part II."
@@miller-joel I think his death makes perfect sense. We love Joel but in universe let's be honest he's a bad person. He's killed a ton of people for selfish reasons killed the only people trying to make a cure (1 of them being her father) and he lied to Ellie about it even though she was fine with dying for the cure. Him dying in a gruesome realistic way fits the series he doesn't deserve a quiet death.
@@GimmeSkooma 1) That death sucked for about 100 reasons.
2) Saving your kid from a deranged cult that was about to kill her is not "selfish."
3) There was never going to be a "cure." The "doctor" was not even a doctor, much less a brain surgeon or vaccinologist.
4) Ellie was not fine with dying. This never comes up in the original story.
5) There was nothing "realistic" about the toughest survivor in that world suddenly trusting well-armed complete strangers in uniforms, and walking unarmed into a closed room to be surrounded by them.
6) It was even even less "realistic" for the WLF to leave Ellie and Tommy alive after torturing Joel to death in front of them. That's completely f'ing ret*rded.
You need to come up with new material.
@@miller-joel 1. The death is fine should've been placed in a different point of the game though.
2. What death cult I was talking about the people he killed during those years he was a Bandit with Tommy.
3. Joel says himself that he believes in the cure we as players know they don't know if they can cure it or not but Joel and Ellie never find that out.
4. I'll find the clip for you even if I have to replay the game.
5. He's old as hell by the time TLOU2 starts he's not gonna be as good as he was.
6. I said I like the death not that this was a good game no shit that was stupid everyone knows that.
@@miller-joel And really "you need to come up with new material" I'm a guy online not a youtuber lmao
4:10 Neil doesn't get the benefit of the doubt, because it's not just ONE mistake or ONE contrivance. It's one after another. After another. After another. And so on.
Leaving Ellie and Tommy alive after torturing Joel to death in front of them is as ret*rded as it gets. There's no possible "explanation" for it. It's just moronic.
The rest of the story is JUST LIKE THAT. One contrivance after another. Ellie drops the map to their secret location, so Abby can find them.
Ellie wants to kill Abby, then lets Abby go, then wants to kill her again, but instead of shooting her, she wants a fist fight to the death, so Abby can bite Ellie's fingers off. The characters go where the plot wants them to go, even if it doesn't make any f'ing sense.
Not really they left them alive because they only wanted Joel right? And manny was going to kill Ellie but they said no there’s no reason and she dropped the map on accident okay? That can happen to anyone ? She was in the middle of killing people and tommy came so she got distracted? And at the end she didn’t have a gun she had a knife and they fought like everyone else would have they were both weak and if u don’t understand the end and why they didn’t kill eachother u just didn’t get the point of the game simple
Neil is a victim of MSM social engineering , it bled into his video game narrative. Sad really
@@leaa1008 Are you listening to yourself? First of all, Abby was looking for Tommy. She didn't expect to find Joel there. Second, why in the f'ing hell would they leave living witnesses? Witnesses that OBVIOUSLY cared about Joel. AT THE VERY LEAST, they would take them prisoner, so they couldn't alert anyone else. Without Tommy and Ellie, the people of Jackson would have no clue whatsoever what happened to any of them.
They were mercenaries who killed Seraphites all day long. Even their "medic" did. Don't don't give me this BS about them having a conscience. The ONLY reason they leave them alive is because you don't have a story otherwise. NOT because it makes any sense whatsoever.
@@TheAgentAssassin Neil worships at the altar of Anita S.
@ leaa It? Still? Doesn’t? Make? Sense?
Why would you kill someone, no, torture them, in front of two of their loved ones and not expect them to be resentful and seek revenge? It’s Ret*rded.
Ellie dropping the map and Abby finding it was BS.
The last fight was also BS. She could have shot Abby but choose to fucking fist fight her
My problem with Joel's death is that they killed him off way too early! He deserved better & should've gone out fighting back like beating & stabbing Abby on the leg or cutting her hand off as self defense. The TV series should give Joel more screentime for Season 2. Just hope they don't go the exact same route like TLOUPart2 & kill him off too soon!
They shouldn't have killed off Joel period!
@@Optimegatrongodzilla Agreed!💯/💯
I think they would be stupid if they killed him early in the show especially because people love Pedro a lot, but the 2nd game will be spaced out into seasons 2 and 3 we might have more time with him.
@@AC-cb8we It's stupid to kill him off period! Especially in the way that they did, which contradicted the intelligence that he had in the 1st game!
@@OptimegatrongodzillaIt’s not necessarily stupid to kill off Joel. It makes sense that he was killed after what he did, but it should’ve been handled in a better way.
Honestly yeah.
Show Joel has become old with gameplay.
> Make him unable to run for long
> Make it hard for him to stand up
> Make him lean on stuff during cutscenes
Heck make it so it's hard for him to aim with rifles just because he isn't strong enough to hold them like he used too.
Then switch perspective with Ellie who has none of these issues.
Showing us the players not only with what we see but how we play that Joel has become old.
Because lets be honest, Joel is a FREAKING TANK and would have merced that entire room with no issues before they realized what happen.
We still have Joel from TLOU 1 fresh in our minds and that's our expectation of him.
But nerfing him with gameplay where one single clicker is actually a INSANELY rough time for him would help us understand how someone like abby would get the drop on him.
Heck you can give him a bit of dementia.
But the problem with this is that we absolutely hate Abby, her reason to kill Joel and the entire plotline is so shaky it hurts.
She killed him brutally, she doesn't deserve redemption from the players view.
If they want a brutal kill they cant expect the player to forgive.
If it was just one shot to the head, the player would still be outraged but we could understand and hate her as a character.
And not hate the entire storyline.
Neil knew what he was doing, I bet he was excited to see everyone lose their mind about Joel, fuck that guy
Yeah after I saw Joel get killed like that I close the game and watch the whole thing on TH-cam and gave the game away to a friend I’m not saying Joel is a saint but Abigail I hated her even before she killed Joel idk why
An awesome Tank? In the first game he is saved 5 times, in chronological order:
Tommy
Ellie(when she shoots the first time)
Bill
Henry(in the river)
Ellie(when Joel gets hurt)
Joel is not an infallible character, again in the first game he does not check if Henry and Sam were bitten after the encounter with the infected. A survivor like him shouldn't make this mistake
Ironically this post by you is why i thought his death was brilliant
Joel's death was just.. so different man. It was unlike any other death in gaming.. it wasn't even like as sad as Arthur's death or as dramatic as john's or whatever. It was different from any character. With joel it was just straight up disrespectful and just unbelievable. With Joel's death you just go through all stages of grief, anger, depression, denial, disappointed and revenge all. It was so frustrating, it was unexpected. Like the whole time it's like.. nah no way he's gonna die like this and then just bam. I can never forgive that death man. Not a heroes sacrifice or any heroes redeemable hero's death like arthur or.. any like end game badass death speech like big smoke or john or nothing. He just went out.. his brain smashed with a golf club the first two hours of the game spitted on his corpse with no great funeral or ceremony or even proper revenge, like nah man.. you don't just kill off a character like that.. not any character, JOEL! one of the best there ever was. Sure he was not a good person but what do you expect in a universe like that when you have already lost one of your daughters to humans not even letting you say goodbye to her or asking her anything.. it was all out on force. AND HE SAVED ABBY TOO. I don't even blame abby for killing joel. The blame is all on naughty dog for freaking writing it like that. His death was unlike any other and hit me so hard. You connect to joel so much in many ways. He was the most human and relatable character, kinda like arthur. Sad we got to see him like that man. No matter what I don't believe that. A legend. Literally a legend
It is actually funny how you perfeclty explains why I think Joel's death was portayed exactly as it should be. It should put you in Ellie's shoes, make you feel exactly like her felt at that moment. It should be shocking, unfair, extremely sad and disappointing. It should feel like he was robbed from us in the same way he was robbed from Ellie.
The problem is that it only works as shock factor, and does nothing but give the character of Ellie, a bone to pick with. It doesn't get much deeper. Which is why they have to bait and switch yo uwith Abby, who we will never care about. The whole "its all about perspective" cliche is far too ham fisted.
@@vandalg282 I both agree and disagree with you. I do agree that the way they introduced Abby's character and how the game wants you to empathize with her wasn't done in the smoothest way possible, and I think they should reorder lots of plot points and change a few things for it to work better in the HBO show. But I disagree that Joel's death isn't deeper. It is, Joel is probably the most important character in the game, his presence, legacy and weight of his actions are felt throughout the whole game. Of course it has shock value to it, but I think it does serve the narrative pretty well. He even continues to appear in the game even after his death through flashbacks, all of which appear in pivotal moments for Ellie's character arc
I'm with you there, Joel's death does matter, so let me clarify, his death matters when its done properly (Logan). He definitely deserved or is destined to die, the salty anti hero usually does, however, making it the pivotal point in the beginning of the second game, was done horribly.
It has the whiplash effect, all of a sudden we're forced to give a damn about Abby, which we never will, because shes too far removed from both characters. When TWD did this, Negan explains the rules, kills Glenn, then it because the Nega saga....
However, there was build up, and we're not given a switched perspective, in fact, we're dealing with how now said group has to live in a world with Negan in it. Abby doesn't have a world, or a lingering presence.
@@vandalg282it worked for because imo they gave her the perfect justification. If i had a father who waa murdered while trying to find a cure for humanity id go crazy. There are no heroes just humans in those games. I just thibk alot of ppp werent able to let go of their love for joel
The theme of the first game is love. Second game's theme is hate. The gamers felt exactly that while playing the games. The developers did good evoking those feelings in the gamer.
I do think the game could've handled Joel's change in character better but I bought that his love for Ellie and life in Jackson made him more trusting. He traded people who weren't a part of Jackson for Coffee for example.
They didn't trade by walking unarmed into a closed room full of armed strangers wearing WLF patches. 🙄
@@miller-joelI guess Tommy and Joel should have just stood their ground with horde of infected.
@@introbe1 And in all those years, they never came up against a horde? Or a storm? They survived a lot worse for almost 30 years, but suddenly they just don't know what to do? Lazy writing.
@@miller-joel It's not lazy writing. It's called a contrivance. It moves the plot along. The first game had them as well. I guess it was also poorly written.
@@introbe1 A contrivance IS lazy writing. The first game had amazing writing. If there were contrivances, and I can't think of any, they were so insignificant no one cared. Here, they are as subtle as a being hit in the face with a shovel.
Fuck me this thumb nail that youtube recommended just spoiled the series story for me as ive never played the game. lovely
TLOU 2 is fanfiction, you can still play TLOU and enjoy the story and explore the world and the environmental storytelling
sad part about joels death is that after Jordan says they got at the cabin yesterday, and joel repeats "yesterday" which means he knew something wasnt right, but sadly it was too late. Joels fate was unvoidable once he past those gates at the cabin. I dont hate on joels death. Choices have consequences after all and he killed Abbys father. But the fact that we have to play as Abby is something im not a fan of. i wish the whole game was about killing all of Abbys friends and Abby herself at the end while we play as Ellie the whole game. If the their plan was to not make a last of us part 3 they could at least add where the player can chose to kill Abby or not
Playing as Abbey was the best part. We get to empathize with her, see her motivations and get context for everything she's doing. Otherwise it would have just been one dimensional like every other game out there. Humanizing Abbey and feeling that gut wrenching feeling at the end of not knowing who to root for at the end is what makes this game a masterpiece in story telling.
Playing as abby was a great twist. I agree the ending could have been better if we got a choice to kill abby or not. Ellie letting her live was lackluster
Sad part about Joel death was he survived 20 years after the initial apocalypse and died after a 5 year vacation form the City, If you spent half your adult life surviving and have made enemies because of it you don't just give names to people, same goes for his brother, they are SURVIVORS, but they had to make this game and it had to make noise so they killed did Joel and added she hulk and a side of genocide, very riveting stuff
@@SeanUCF Otherwise it would have been an REAL TLOU sequel, Neil was either told to end TLOU or wanted to end it himself but either way he wanted to experiment and do something completely different for x,y,z reason and we got this TWD type drama
@@SeanUCF she's an annoying brat which the game forces empathy by her trying to save kids who can easily handle themselves, there are no parallels like Joel with sarah dying so he adopts ellie. what's the deal with abby and lev? just cause. she's gonna abandon her whole group to save these 2 kids she just met... in this cruel dog-eat-dog world... it doesn't make any sense, it's lazy story writing.
I'm sorry killing Joel was a terrible idea in part 2 especially with so many players having a strong bond with him from the first game. There was still more digging to do overall into Joel's history. At the least they could have killed him at the very end of the game to set up for a part 3. You just don't kill off someone as important as Joel so quickly.🤦🏾♂️
Joel did have a close call with infected that almost got Ellie killed because he didn't clear a building. It was in a flashback. Also, when Joel enters that room, Abby already knew their names because Tommy told her.
he wasn't anticipating going into that bulding until ellie wanted to tbf. And even then he was against the idea.
@@oll-turny-llo8200 It was Joel's idea to cut through the hotel where they find the bloater. That was after he realized they couldn't swim toward the music store anymore. And that was just down the hill from where he and Tommy did most of their patrols. He wasn't be very attentive.
@@introbe1 ahh my bad, i thought you were speaking of the museum flashback where ellie insists on going on to the unsearched building.
That was set up purely for gameplay purposes really. And even in that flashback he shows how cautious he is in character when he insists ellie wears her mask incase they run into people. He has every confidence in their ability to clear buildings and traverse them. It's other humans that he doesn't trust, that's fairly well established in his character. And at no point in tlou2 prior to his death scene are we shown joel now is more trusting and less cautious of strangers.
That's why many feel that the decisions he made leading to his death of saving a stranger and trusting a whole group of them is out of character for him - he never, ever, trusted anyone he didn't know.
@@oll-turny-llo8200 He's cautious when it comes to Ellie. That's why Jessie says to Ellie in the dance flashback "It's funny how involved he (Joel) gets wherever you are scheduled for patrol." The flashback with the bloater shows he's getting careless. He's sits there with a guitar with gunfire going off outside and then casually asks Tommy and Ellie when they come inside "That was yall out there shooting, right?" He hadn't been down by the hotel in so long that he didn't know you couldn't swim across the one place anymore. The hotel is filled with infected and even a bloater. The area near the lodge is the one Tommy and Joel always patrol. So obviously they haven't been doing their job very well. Joel even says it was an "oversight."
Joel is a little different at this point. That was the whole point of his character arc in the first game.
Part 2 shows that Jackson is trying to be more welcoming to outsiders and he is a citizen of Jackson now.
@@introbe1 he's cautious about his survival an the survival of those he cares about, not specifically ellie. Caution is a part of his character way back to the first game where he refused to pick up the family at the side of the road on outbreak day.
He heard the shooting but wasn't alarmed because he would have heard shouts for help if they were in trouble and he recognised tommy's rifle fire "that was yall shooting out there, right?" the first part is a statement, the second part is just for confirmation. They were all out on patrol, he was keeping watch at the lodge, they were patrolling the ridge, so hearing gunshots is expected.
Not having patrolled an area in a while is not evidence that he trusts strangers all of a sudden. His character arc in tlou1 was about connecting with ellie and finding someone he is willing to care for primarilly - Not to be trusting of strangers. If anything tlou1 would make him trust complete strangers less after the encounter with david, who ellie trusted at first. That was probably a good learning point for ellie actually - to not trust strangers, no matter how friendly they seem. And even henry betrays them at one point leaving them stranded, and henry was ultimately an ok guy. The lesson from that is even decent people will do you wrong for their own benifit and survival. There's nothing in the first game that would make Joel more trusting of strangers.
That's why many feel that his decisions that lead to his death felt forced, artificial and out of character. Nothing suggests to the audience that he's more trusting all of a sudden. Maybe if they had a foreshadowing scene early on where it's explained that Joel had been meeting strangers and bringing them to jackson or something and Tommy can make a remark like "you're getting soft joel" or something, that would make his actions more believable. But nothing like that takes place.
The audience can't suspend their disbelief and assume "oh he must trust random strangers now." because that's so against the grain of his character. And there's no character development offered to the audience to suggest this changed.
Anybody who writes themselves, or at least studies writing and storytelling must see that making a character act out of character with no arc or explanation for the sake of advancing the plot is objectively poor writing. It's jarring and makes the reader feel confused, minipulated and cheated - especially when it's used to kill off a character. When a character makes a decision, the audience should never be left thinking, "what? he did what? That's not like him at all." audiences aren't dumb. They can feel when a plot point is being shoe horned in around a character to force story advancement, and it feels cheap.
To be clear, I don't hate the game. I actually respect it for what it tried to do and it's theme. I just recognise the flaws in the writing and understand why many do hate it.
I’m not mad Joel died I’m mad how he died, bro this is the same guy that drove straight at that same guy in Pittsburgh, bro Joel why are you telling these random mfs your full name and your brothers
It doesn't fit. Joel wouldn't follow a girl he just met to her camp it just doesn't add up
@@idkwhattonamethischannelso4701 I mean I can see him following Abby bc of the situation they were in at the time but I’m not sitting down and talking to them 😂
Great video, great points voiced, clear and calm analysis. Loved it, and subbed! The only thing to point out: Tommy's change of heart is much clearer to me as we can see part of the consequences that changed his mind: he lost his eye and leg, Jesse died, and Maria left him. None of that was expected when gave his sage advice, and I can understand his change of heart over the years of buried pain later. But yeah, I'd love to SEE more of it instead of figuring it out on my own. Not that I don't like when games make gamers figure out stuff on their own - it's bold and actually refreshing. But in the TLOU 2, it is not done right as such a huge chunk of the story is simply missing, and the ground of the jumps that we make in the plot is not covered in any way at all. We just need to go along with what writers want to show us without question, and this approach just cannot peacefully coincide with trying to treat your audience as smart and want them to figure out stuff on their own. Mix this approach with killing a fan-favourite character and playing as their killer later... well, you know how it goes.
The problem is that his entire death sequence was carried out with zero respect for the character. I wouldn't have had a problem with Joel dying the way he did if it felt deserved.
Agreed
I think we were shown the change in Tommy's values when Abby shot him in the head, and killed Jesse, and nearly killed Dina.
There's abby's whiplash
I genuinely used to wonder if gamers watched or read anything adult, and the continued discourse around this game gives me a sad answer.
I appreciate Abby taking some time going through the golf bag to making the decision to pick a 9 iron. It’s actually the best one considering the tip is pretty firm and club head weight is high leading to some impact energy and it’s also still long enough in relation to the flex to gain some lever action.
bruh
It’s true. Abby most likely played golf a few times.
@@arnekronvall817 i mean thats cool and all but bruh. Anyways nice attention to detail
Good video dissecting why you felt like the story was contrived, however i feel there are things you either could have looked at differently or just seemed to completely miss (in my opinion). I do agree that to most players they would assume Joel is very similar to the version of him from the first game, but I think a lot of this is because we were only shown the changed joel in 1 moment (the very last moment) in the first game. Because of the long time between releases the version of joel in most peoples head isn't the seemingly happy, sweet, and fulfilled guy he is because of ellie but the hardened scavenger who will do what he needs to survive. The second game does a good job in showing how joel is now opening up to the people in his life and is learning how to be a person who is willing to care for others. This is shown in joel telling tommy about the hospital in salt lake and when he plays a song for ellie (like seriously, there is absolutely no way joel from the first game would serenade someone with a heartfelt song) so these actions to me show that since joel found a reason to live through human connection, he would be more open to trusting others. This is why i don't feel his actions prior to his death felt out of character because part II joel is (almost) completely different from part I joel. Now for tommy's change of opinion it seems insultingly obvious what could have made him change his mind. He felt he had to be okay with letting his brothers killer go in order to protect the people he still has in his life. As he does this the person he is seemingly forgiving literally like actually SHOOTS HIM IN THE HEAD. ignoring all the mental issues that could result in, the simple act of abby doing that to tommy is reason enough for me to believe he would want to track down abby. Also you say we are told tommy's new values not shown them, and i don't think that's true. Telling something to the audience takes away the involvement of witnessing a story and simply presents information to the audience. The scene of tommy coming to ellie and dina's house is a conflict of the characters and thus i feel we are being shown the characters values through how they are interacting with one another. Tommy, now stern in his commitment to hunt down abby, is almost berating ellie about how she should feel how he feels, and dina is pushing back against tommy, showing she has very different values than him. During this ellie is strangely quiet and almost resentfully contemplative, showing the tinge of revenge still left in her. So while i can understand why you came to the conclusions you did, i feel looking at the story from a wider perspective allows you to see moments in the game for more of what the are and allows you to see them work in multiple different ways.
What a great video truly fair and respectful while understanding both sides and looking back on the first game.. it all makes sense to playing both games couple of times! The Last of Us Part 2 takes risks and not have such a cliche story that we could predict and it’s a fantastic dark and unpleasant and violent and terrifying and beautiful experience it’s a fantastic game! And personally I think the leaks ruined this game.. I’m excited for Part 3 and I’m loving the tv series so far! Well done on making this video it’s incredibly underrated!
But Joel's trust in Abby's group is set up when he saves Abby, that alone shows the player that Joel has become a more trusting man. He also fights along side her and she appears friendly, as in helping them escape their situation. The only time he really has the chance to tell that her and her group are danger for him is before it's too late.
It's out of character for joel to save people he doesn't know to start with, so the inconsistency in character starts there really. It would have been more believable if you had a section playing with joel close to his death where he makes a mistake to show he's rusty with tommy saying something like "you're losing your touch joel" or " Your'e getting soft" etc. That would be showing character development. But the joel in thou1 was cautious to the point if paranoia, so it's hard for an audience to buy his character would suddenly save someone he doesn't know and go back with them to be outnumbered by people he doesn't know all just for him to be killed to advance the plot.
A character acting out of character in order to make the plot work is objectively poor writing. The plot and character should work seemlesly. When a character makes a decision, the audience should never be left thinking, "what? he did what? That's not like him at all." audiences aren't dumb. They can feel when a plot point is being shoe horned in around a character to force story advancement, and it feels cheap.
to be clear I have no personal issue with the story or game, I actually respect it a lot for what it tried to do. I can just understand why people hate it and can see the objective flaws in the writing.
Exactly that is it
The way he died it just didn't fit my mind that's not the Joel we knew it's just unforgivable.
Like this guy who gave his name to a small group of survivors that lives next to his colony and he didn't even know their existence, he's not the Joel we knew
The genies careful patient Joel that made a plan to rescue Ellie and tortured to guy's to get to what he wants, to just gave it away by trusting ppl that he don't know.
It was 5 years he changed and he was unarmed against 6 people what would he of done
@@emilianovegaalvarado6050 maybe shouldn’t have followed them?
Yup, apparently 20 years and basically half his adult life spent surviving goes away in 5 years
@@emilianovegaalvarado6050 maybe he should be armed outside your communities walls?
I always thought they should have killed Tommy instead of Joel (like Tommy saves Joel and die in the process). Then Joel and Ellie get on a revenge mission. They locate Tommy's murderers in California, near Santa Barbara. Joel dies mid-game after discovering that he's going against the children of the Fireflies he slaughtered in the first game. Ellie decides to take on Joel's mission and go after his murderers.
After a while, Ellie realizes that the Jackson revenge group is led by Marlene's grown-up son, Jarel, who is now part of the California Liberation Front (CLF), an organization at war with another group named "the Rattlers". Ellie manages to track down Jarel, and they duel in a military hospital. After the floor collapses, they find themselves in the "Special Quarantine Zone", where the first wave of infected patients were treated back in 2013.
A firefight ensues, which has the unattended effect to wake up a "tanker", a four-leg monster made of several bloaters that can spit acid. They eventually manage to defeat the beast, but Jarel is severely wounded in the process. After an emotional talk, Ellie decides to spare Jarel, and she brings him to a clinic run by the CLF. Eventually, Jarel explains the whole backstory to his colleagues, and he convinces them to let Ellie go. The game ends with Ellie riding back to Jackson with Jarel's horse.
i wish last of us 2 was only about abby looking for her father or something. we fallow her, get to know her, go through tough situations, and at the end game she finds out that her dad is killed. then in tlos3 we get this story.. honestly i wish we never revisited joel and elie ever again, their story was really nicely wrapped up in the first game, we didn’t had to know about these events. the last of us 2 could be totally about some other people in other parts of the world
you should make a video to explain what you just explained.
sorry you have low views. you make some great points!
The worst part of TLOU2 isn't even Joel's death.
Its that Ellie kills ALL THOSE PEOPLE to get to Abby and then when she finally gets to Abby and is about to kill her, she lets her go.
And then she returns to find that everyone she loves is gone.
It is the most unsatisfying ending in modern gaming.
It's not supposed to be satisfying
That’s the same bs they pulled off with Negan.
"fingers crossed a druckster cut exists somewhere"
this WAS the druckster cut, and it would have been the druckster cut for the first game too if the rest of the team hadn't stepped in to say that a revenge trip spanning across half the US was too ridiculous of a plot for the game (tess going after joel), something that part 2 has TWO OF (abby going after joel, ellie going after abby)
Naughty dog messed everything in last of us 2 . Part 1 is always better than its sequel. 😡🤬
I read online that in the 4 years they skip Joel has a girlfriend but they cut it out to save time. I still think they could’ve added like a conversation in “Finding strings” about her tho. This could’ve helped explain things a little bit. Still I love this game anyway.
If the story was exactly the same, but at the start you play as Joel along with Ellie on a mission for jackson at the start for a couple of hours, and his death scene was done with more respect to his character and not him being so blindly trusting and abbys gameplay was shortened
I would like the game a lot more.
I would still have some griped with it but I would like it more.
It fits perfectly in this chaotic world where no one is save. The only thing that doesnt compute are our emotions.
People aren’t angry that Joel was killed. They angry at how it was done.
Great video:)
This must ne one of the best tlou2 videos I watched. I agree with everything you said.
I especially liked the take on how Joel's death creates an unexpected, but more interesting story.
Disappointing how amature the story feels trying to contrive the plot and characters. So many times where Ellie was supposed to be shot in the head only for some forced thing to stop the bullet, specifically in Joel's death scene, that scene with Jordan, in some sense the middle when Abby let her live. And that's only one example. The game, the details and game play and all is fun but I don't think this was the direction they should've taken the story in.
thank you, that's exactly what my problem with the game it's that the characters's actions and motivations change too quickly for the player to understand, they make sense when you think about it hard enough but for a first time playthrough it just seems like nonsense there's literally missing context and scenes that this game needed to make 100% sense but some would argue that that's why it's so great, art is subjective after all but in my opinion tlou2 is just a good story told badly or a good story with missing pieces, nonetheless it's still one of my favorite games ever i mostly just play for the gameplay, amazing environments and sexy characters lol
Got ready to hate watch this but damn you actually make good points. I’ve listened to podcasts with Neil and Troy specifically talking about how Joel has grown soft and more trusting from his time in Jackson, i even remember one of them saying Joel’s last thoughts are along the lines of “you see old man, this is what you get for trusting people”. I think they’ll definitely add that missing context in the show
Thing that bugs me is he didn't trust people and had the edge to him before Sarah dies its shown in the prologue the lengths he's willing to go such as not helping the family or telling Tommy to drive through the crowd. He survived 20 years like this. If he was like this before anything happened then why would he have that low of a guard after being in relative safety for only 4 years. I understand with his development him being willing to help people and I understand him having no reason not to say his name. But with his character once his last name was spoken by armed strangers in militia uniforms I would think his first instinct would be to try to pull his gun out immediately or at least jump on the offense from the get go not say slowly "well you act like you've heard of us or something." Especially with how his adrenaline was pumping from running from the horde. Him dying there for me isn't the problem neither is his slow reaction time he is old after all my problem was he didn't immediately at least try to act when he had enough time to stand there and ask a question. He was fucked the minute he went into the building.
I expected joe to die they just didn’t do it right if you were a fan I the first game the 2nd is not worth playing but if the 2nd is your first I’d give it a try
I don't get your point? Joel sees a non-infected Woman being attacked by a horde of infected and helps her out - the situation doesn't give him time to be suspicious. For all he knows, they could be from jackson. Also, he is immediatly suspicious after he gets a closer look at her. So i don't think he changed his values at all. I really think his death was a cool and shocking twist. Tommy's change is lazy, yes. But i think after everthing that happend in seattle he has a right to be irrational and different. The biggest if not the only flaw of this game is the fact, that ellie changes her mind to kill abby. Of course it couldn't end in her killing abby and not learning anything but her change of mind feels so rushed.
Best Channel EVER. Saludos desde Argentina.
Tommy got shot by Abby and another friend killed by her (shown why he changed his mind). The only lie we ever see Joel tell between the two games is to Ellie. He allows himself to trust Henry/Sam because of Ellie and he allows himself to trust Abby in part due to Tommy. The inconsistencies people cling to do not exist.
2:50 No, Joel and Tommy could not be "more trusting" or "softer." They were still going on patrol. Regularly. Where one mistake could get them killed and put the entire town in danger.
IF they had retired years ago and had NOT kept going out on patrol, we can talk about it. You'd still be wrong, but we could talk about it. As it is, there's ZERO chance they were "soft" or "trusting."
I personally didn't like killing Thanos first in endgame because he gets replaced with a lesser version of himself that basically has no dramatic tension with any of the characters that they built up in Infinity War. I get that Thanos in the beginning has no reason to fight at all, but basically bringing in a hollow version of the villain wastes any character drama it could've had.
Dude the version we got is the "Druckman" cut
While I agree that contrivance is relied on in the narrative, I disagree that it's used for Joels Death and Tommy's change of mind
While it is established that Joel isn't a friendly person, in the first game we see that Joel is actually willing to trust others depending on the situation (E.g Henry/Sam), he was willing to trust strangers to get him and Ellie out of Pitsburgh, same way him and Tommy were willing to trust Abby to get away from the blizzard and horde. Secondly, Tommy is the one who gives their names away initially. He is essentially subdued into trusting these strangers like how Ellie did with him and Henry
With Tommys change of mind, sure he gives up on his quest... but then he gets shot in the face and crippled, then loses his wife on top of that... I mean, I don't know why you'd expect the sage to still preach about letting things go
The whole "tell don't show" story decision is a trap a lot of writers in media seem to fall into. Very good video. I think something that bothered me that you didn't directly mention was how Joel died. Not only was he way too trusting, but he went down without a fight. He was made weak and helpless, which was probably what the game creators were going for, but it feels like a random about-face to how much of a fighter and survivor Joel is in the first game. I think he should have at least gotten a couple good licks in or taken out a few of Abby's men before being killed. Would have felt less like a betrayal of his character.
And as for Abby, the game did an excellent job making you hate her with every fiber of your being and also did a terrible job making you empathize with her and be okay with her surviving.
Tbf to Joel his leg was blown to pieces with a shotgun and then he was held down by 2 other people until he got hit in the face with a Golf club lol even he knew he was dead
Go easy on the man, he was getting old 😂
The directors were more focused on things other than on their audience and plot holes is what I think.
TLOU2 was a fantastic game but the fact he dies and you don’t kill Abby. If Joel was to die give the man some dignifying death & it was mad early on the game.
Why should Joel have a dignifying death? Great people in real life don't, why him? You gamers are such a bunch of immature butt-hurt geeks who can't take reality.
Although I agree with your Santa Barbara assessment, I feel like by showing Joel's interaction with Abbie in the very beginning, his knew trusting persona comes across very well to me.
Still great video! Keep it up.
It's totally fine if it works for you.
On a technical level, there just isn't enough context to justify Joel's much more trusting personality when he meets Abby, which differs from the Joel established in the first game.
@@thewritest4413 so true. It confused me why he became more trusting without the context of how he got to that point.
@@thewritest4413 That's because you forget that he has been part of Tommy's town for at least 6 years now, THAT is why he started getting more trust for people. The final scene with Ellie even says that people come through the town on a regular basis, so people are starting to trust again.
@@Joe_Okey Complete and utter BS. Trade didn't turn them into complete morons. They were not regularly going out on patrol because they got "soft." They were survivors. They were in survival mode when they walked into the most obvious and idiotic ambush in history.
Maria doesn't want to send anyone after the WLF because IT WOULD LEAVE THE TOWN VULNERABLE. They were not morons. They still lived in a dangerous world, where humans are more dangerous than the infected. Jesse tells every patrol, if they come up against something they can't handle, turn back.
@@thewritest4413 The skills they honed and picked up surviving the world for decades (Joel was 30 pre outbreak and in post he survived til his 50s) can't just disappear because they had a sweet deal in far off community, no way.
I'm okay with Joel dying in this game, I honestly expected it and even would say it had to happen. But my issue is with how they did it, they killed him way too early and he just got his head bashed in with a golf club and somehow tommy and ellie were just let go with out being killed like that wouldn't end terribly. I feel like if they really wanted to do the revenge is bad story, they could've done something like having joel around for maybe 5-8 hours of game. You have Abby around with you after saving her and shes plotting on how shes gonna get back at Joel. At some point him and abby plus ellie are scavenging or something and then attacked by a lot of zombies, joel is old and not as strong as he used to be so he ends up being injured in someway. Abby takes advantage of this and now reveals her plan and escapes and makes ellie and joel locked with the zombies, ellie and joel try to find a way out, they do, but only one can escape. Joel obviously lets ellie live and then ellie goes out to get revenge on Abby for tricking them like that. I know this isn't exactly perfect either but its a lot more respectable for a character like Joel to have a death this rather than saving someone and then getting his head bashed in with a golf club of all things. Thats just my opinion though.
I feel like a lot of people who criticise Joel's death scene go with the narrative that its "against Joel's character values" or something like this. They always fail to mention however that the reason Joel was in that situation is because they were fleeing a horde to Abby's safe house so, as far as Joel and Tommy are concerned, Abby just saved their lives. They also never mention that its actually Tommy who reveals their identities, not Joel, and at this point in the story Abby already knows who Joel is so they could have just had her pop him in the leg without saying anything and it would have made sense. But the whole tonal shift in the room when Tommy says Joel's name is really great for the scene and you get to have that "y'all act like you've heard of us" moment
Besides his death my biggest problem was the narrative . Not only lacked the exploreness and "openness" that TLOUI had they did a very bad job passing the point of how revange is a shitty way to solve lost. There are great history points but hell they could make the story to introduce Abby. Hell the way they made the storyline to go 60% being flashback felt so odd. would be waay better if they introduced abby at the first arc, the gameplay would change between her are and Ellie and the 2nd arc she meets Joel and kills him on a less "dumb" way. Then the 3rd arc would be this revange plot they wanted to make.
There a different of joes death and lee's death but i still play the game after lee died and didn't for joes did
...is this not the Drux Cut?
My only problem with it still is that it felt so rushed. To me, it makes sense that Joel softened a bit more over the years. I mean, that was his character arc in the first game. He probably didn't feel like he was in danger because he literally just saved Abby's life. Why would someone you just saved immediately turn around and kill you? It was just disappointing how after a 7-year wait, he was gone in under 2 hours. Also, it's ridiculously convenient that Abby bumps into Joel already outside the walls.
I think the Jackson chapter should have been much longer. A gameplay section of Joel and Tommy killing infected while looking for a guitar would have been nice.
Also, Tommy's deterioration makes perfect sense. Because of Abby, he lost his brother and Jesse, he nearly lost an eye and his ability to walk, and his wife left him.
Also just the straight fact that Joels killers just happened to bumb into him and not realize it was him so the could get close was very contrived and forced.
I like that we didn’t just get another road trip story to repeat the success of the first game. They decided to take a whole new direction and while the execution wasn’t great, it was very interesting to find out where we were going to end up in the world of the last of us.
They explored some stuff for sure but at the expense of TLOU 1 story.
Joel survived for decades post fungus zombie apocalypse, no way he would treat strangers so welcoming who are armed, in this world everyone who is left are SURVIVORS unless somehow between the 5 years after the first game bandits, zombies, and lawless nature of their reality transformed into "let me share my name with you armed strangers while we are alone" type of world.
It was just cheap way to introduce us to Abbie and her history, honestly if anyone should have been killed it would have been Ellie who grew up in the apocalypse but never got dirty like Joel in his 20 years of surviving, she would be a bit more naive than Joel and growing up around a safeish environment and pursuing other interests would allow her to build bad habits like being friendly with strangers.
We didn't need or want a sequel, hell, no one thought it was happening until they dropped the teaser.
It was a really scummy move by Naughty Dog to put Joel in the trailer saying he's coming along on Ellie's quest. Misdirection is one thing, but blatantly lying in the marketing is just spitting in the faces of fans.
Imagine how much hype that trailer caused, with people thinking they get to go on another adventure with Joel again. Smh...
You have a point with Joel's death but my guy you missed the part where after Tommy told Ellie to stop he got severely crippled because Abby fucked him up so bad and saw Jesse get killed in front of him, not to mention his wife divorcing him after he comes back from all of that, Tommy is broken and anyone who can't see that didn't pay attention to the game or didn't finish or play it
I feel like we don't always have to be shown something for it to have happened. There was a 5 year time skip which we didn't see. And the game didn't need to show us why his values changed, because it's obvious that it did based off his actions in this game compared to the last. The game doesn't treat us like we are stupid and that we have to be shown and proven everything. We can compare to God of War. I didn't see anyone complaining about how Kratos has changed over the years. Going from an insane, rage-filled god killer to a father who has learned to love again because of his son. Which I think is parallel to Joel. Being that he was an angry killer, who found meaning and love through Ellie (as if she was his daughter). It didn't matter if we were shown his value changes or not. It happened. The writers didn't feel they needed to show us because it is shown indirectly through his actions.
So Joel living in a zombie apocalypse, where there is no real LAW and you ALWAYS have to be on the look out for yourself and the people you trust to survive, take a 5 year vacation and forgets theres a freaking zombie apocalypse, lawlessness all around their little community, sure makes total sense.
Also it makes sense since he made it to their community that he can handle himself out in the wilderness, he either became a teacher for scavengers or did most of the scavenging for the community keeping his skills honed, why would Joel just stop being a smuggler? It's the apocalypse everyone needs people like Joel who can get the job done
i dont agree with the flawed story. the writing is straight awful and poorly done
Actually, the game drove home the point that revenge is never clean and never really solves anything. I dislike that they manipulated the trailers the way that they did, but the game itself actually worked very well for the point they were going for.
@@Joe_Okey it doesn't though it feels unsatisfying and like a waste of time following poorly developed characters most of which die for no reason
The plot holes and contrivances are EVERYWHERE. The entire house of cards depends on them. Remove one of them, and the entire story falls apart. e.g., the WLF leaving Ellie and Tommy alive. Ellie dropping the map so Abby can find them. Etc.
The speed of the story being the issue, rather than the story itself, makes me very excited for the extended retelling we will see in the series
The Last of Us was about Joel getting over this guilt and lost of his daughter by taking Ellie as his daughter. Regaining his humanity. The Last of Us 2 was about how revenge ruins lives and can perpetual more revenge. Thus Ellie loses everything for revenge including her love.
Then why is Abby's deranged obsession with revenge rewarded, by giving her Lev and rejoining the Fireflies at the end?
@ifly fsx because life isn't fair, obviously but she lost all her friends. Ellie killed em all.
@@Krushak8888 Her "friends"? Her "friend" Mel says Abby has always been a POS. Does Abby grieve the loss of any of her friends, like Ellie grieves Joel's loss? NO. Not even close. "Life isn't fair" has nothing to do with it. The writing is garbage.
@ifly fsx ok her "allies" and her one "friend" and it isn't garbage. Not everything has to be a certain way. Ellie lost everything and Abby made way to be a firefly again. So what?
@@Krushak8888 What "allies"? I'm talking about her closest "friends." They ones she dragged out to Jackson. So what? So it disproves your "theory." In Abby's case, revenge pays off. She gets a better life at the end. The characters that fans actually care about, not really.
Good video. I think Naughty Dog went to hard on the presentation of Joel's death. As you stated, it hits so hard it can take you out of the experience. I still love Part 2, it has the strongest (but also the weakest) moments of both games.
And they still haven't delivered so still annoyed
What is that, a Srixon?
The brutality of the murder was the sole reason I hated Abby enough for it to ruin the game. Had she just shot Joel in the head, I'd have been open to sympathizing with her. Instead, she tortured a beloved character to death, and then the developers forced us to play her for half of the game. I never once wanted her side of the story, and even after seeing it I still hated her.
Yep i agree completely
Maybe season 2 will show the shift of Joel's morals
I think saying Joel was trusting is a very simplified way of looking at the scene.
Joel's fate wasn't sealed when he said his name. Joel's fate was sealed when Tommy told Abby their names.
Joel says his name, yes, but in a very hesitant way. He was in an inescapable situation due to all the infected. He starts to realize it before its too late.
Yes it's a bit convenient to run into Abby but the story isn't about how Abby kills Joel, it's about the ramifications of those actions.
I was ready to be up in arms about how stupid this video was, but I mostly agree with you. It is also not Joel who trusts them though, it's Tommy, Joel is simply following his brothers ethics, his brother is wearing on him and has had a much different life in the latest years.
It does make me wonder how the writers will work the plot into the HBO series. They must me aware of some of the fan backlash.
I really, really hope that they change the story to where Dina is the one who dies, like that one trailer for 'The Last of Us 2' led us to believe, since Dina was a new character, thus we had no emotional attachment to her, unlike Joel! But, unfortunately, Neil Druckman is one of the writers, which doesn't bode well.
Let the cry babies cry a river
They want the backlash, they want people to go on their Social Media accounts and post TLOU 2, TLOU HBO and give them free marketing, being controversial is the new way to get hype and make money.
@@OptimegatrongodzillaYeah there’s no way Dina dies over Joel in the show. That’s too massive of a change.
@@tmm4195 Considering the massive backlash to 'The Last of Us 2', I could see it happening, provided that Neil Cuckman isn't given a say in the matter. We'll just have to wait & see what they decide to do. I also like TH-cam user Following The Light's idea. "What if this time, after saving Abby and Abby's friends showing up, Joel and Tommy become very suspicious, and despite them giving fake names, Abby is certain one of these men is Joel, chooses Tommy, and quick-draws a bullet to his head? She then realizes her mistake after Joel kills her friends and she retreats. Then, Joel figures out where Abby & her friends came from and begins his quest for murder. Upon finding out, Ellie goes off after him in the hopes of convincing him not to kill anyone and she fails.".
lol Tommy got shot in the head right after giving the advice to stop. That’s why he changed his mind.
It would have been a much better if Joel and Tommy didn’t say their real name and once Ellie found them, she would say his name in front of everyone
Haven’t bought or played the game and I never will because how they killed him.
I was fine with him dying and all, yes it's overwhelming how it went but what I'm more upset is that... Well ever since the first game, we barely ever get to know Joel.
A grumpy cold-hearted man who closed himself off because of the death of his daughter. There were bits and pieces of his other interests and background but never fully explored or anything with him. At least give us some more human characteristics about Joel other then being just a grumpy father. (Still love it though but he's not JUST a father) Or just have scenes with them showing and or exploring different sides of him.
I don't know if that's a good opinion, but it felt like we hadn't had much time with him as his own person :((
*Heck, imagine a plotwist where Joel is also immune to the virus
You know you can't even blame abby for killing him.. you just have naughty dog to blame for writing it like that.. for disrespecting him like that. You don't just kill off a character at the first hour of the game with his brain smashed with a golf club and spitted on his body with no proper revenge or any kind of respect or a funeral. Not even an end game badass hero's sacrifice kind of death with him being redeemed with a much better death than that. You don't kill off a character such as joel which is one of the best characters ever in that way. Arthur and john marston or so many other characters.. they were sad but at least they died as freaking legends and not just like some unknown non memorable npc
No game would make you feel that tension and emotional roller coaster if he didn’t die , the problem it was really too early with the game , and people didn’t want to play half the game as abby
Like after he dies that early you just don’t care at this point, you play because of realistic mechanics and fun gameplay
I don't really see how Joel's change in character is contrived. This is the trajectory his character was set on at the end of the 1st. Sure we didn't see every step, but given the amount of time passed this is how he would turn out. It's similar to how Sarah Connor went from an active damsel to a hardened soldier in between movies. We didn't see it, but it's reasonable to assume that's how she would turn out
You do not understand the context. Sarah Connor got a full explanation, interrogation, showing her cell, PTSD after meeting the Terminator. We can believe that she could have changed so drastically.
Meanwhile, the game shows us no reason at all for Joel and Tommy's change in behaviour. After all, they were organising regular patrols around Jackson, which showed that they still knew there were dangers. So the moment they ignored all the red flags, from location, to travelling for no reason in the middle of winter to having a military vehicle, decent clothes and solar panels.
@tymonsulimastalman1727 On the contrary I do understand the context. Having just replayed the game it does show their change just in flashbacks or at least it does for Joel. In fact you see more to justify Joel's change as a character than you do for Sarah. We see a good portion at the end of T1, but the change she's gone through by the time you see her in T2 was explained via exposition, but I don't really care about that cause terminator 2 is one of my favorite movies of all time
@@donavanfrea6768 I understand this approach to T1 and T2.
It's just that while I understand that Joel may have changed, I would like to point out that he wasn't trusted at the very beginning of the pandemic. That's one reason why he was still alive 20 years later. Could he really have lost enough vigilance in a few years to not carry a gun around strangers? In a world where people murder each other as soon as they meet? This wasn't some vacation. Because why were they organizing patrols? To pick mushrooms?
Well, and also the creators made a complete fool out of Tommy, who thought that since they had "Washington Liberation Front" patches, it was because they had those jackets stolen. To me, that's a joke. What was missing was that he gave Abby's Crew his pesel numbers, the password to the safe, and offered them a cake baked by his wife.
@tymonsulimastalman1727 Those are valid points. However Keep in mind the reason Joel was an untrustworthy Savage was because he hadn't processed his grief. Sure a lot of things could've been written better, but for the story they were telling they executed it as good as they could've
@@donavanfrea6768 fair point. And I also think that the story could have been better. It would still have been heart wrenching, but at least it would have been compensated somehow.
except killing Thanos this way also sucked
Just because Joel's character development was "done" doesn't mean that there's no reason to keep the character around. Character development isn't the end all be all, sometimes characters are kept around because they are interesting, and Joel was a very interesting and compelling character.
RDR1 has the best video game protagonist and he doesn't have any character development throughout the whole story. It's just a relatable, interesting character trying to carry out a mission and interacting with the people and the world around him, and it's enough to make the story very engaging.
Exploring the impact Joel's lie would have on his relationship with Ellie, a relationship that it took the entire duration of the first game to form, would be significantly more interesting than the generic revenge story we got.
dont put a spoiler in your thumbnail and title xD whyyyyy
Bro could you change the title and thumbnail its a huge spoiler that i would hate to be seen by people who didnt play the game yet or only watched the tv show
I just don’t like how games do that is the same thing like they’re going to completely cut out kraits and just make a game about autreas no one cares about side characters we care about the main character
My problem with joels death... it shouldn't have happened.... tlou is a Masterpiece always will tlou 2 to me is someones fanfic that came to life... never will play it...
Thanks for putting a spoiler randomly in my feed, I guess.
Damn they gave my boy s Ned Stark death 😅
I have to disagree, as wasn't that the point of the whole Henry and Sam section of the game. Every person Joel interacts with is a version of himself and with everyone he loses or interacts with a layer of himself gets stripped back. Turning Joel at the end into a more caring, empathetic (and to his detriment and death) more loving person for Ellie. Think of TLOU as Joels a Christmas Carol, where Joel is Scrooge and everything that happens to him is Christmas Past, Present and Future (but with a much more bleak ending) That's how you get the Joel at the beginning of Part 2. He is someone whos more trusting and willing to help those in need.
I love this take…. There is a necessary suspension of disbelief in fiction. Post hoc criticism just proves your own biases
Lol nah, living 20 years fighting for survival most of your adult life doesn't disappear in 5 years especially since the world is STILL as crazy as it was in TLOU
I guarantee if TLOU2 gave the players the choice whether to kill Abby or not, most people would have finished the job. I felt the game did not do anything to make you emphathize with abby other than the fact that her dad died at joel's hands. Realistically since everyone loves Joel idk if there was anything you could do to make people not hate Abby.
Im 50/50 on how I feel about the ending. If I was involved in a similar situatuon in real life, and my father/father figure was murdered, god knows id go to the end of the earth for vengeance. But from a story telling perspective it kind of makes sense to leave Abby alive because now both her and ellie are struggling with similar issues post-revenge quest
I was never put off by Joel becoming more trusting. He hadn't had a community or sense of belonging since the outbreak and had obviously become much softer. He probably assumed Jackson was strong enough to handle any threat and let his guard down. The odds of him running into someone who knew his identity from him killing someone previously would be extremely slim.
Joel and his brother should be paranoid about the remnants of a organization he took down, I think at the very least both of them would interrogate anyone they come across and ask them where they came from.
But this is an edgy drama so Joel and his brother become soft after a couple years at a small community even tho they adapted and survived the fungus zombie apocalypse and would have some basic rules to ensure their safety...like not leaving you guard down around STRANGERS, especially when you have a community to protect and have grown fond of.
TLOU 2 has a weak narrative story because it was NOT supposed to be made and there was no plan on making it, this was made to print money and feed on nostalgia while making it into TWD drama.
@@gabrielrodriguez4411
I don't disagree about the fact that they probably didn't have ideas for a sequel when they made the first one, but I don't think the narrative is weak at all. In fact I think it's much stronger than the first. I really don't think it's much of a stretch at all for Joel and Tommy to be a little softer and to have made a mental mistake in helping Abbey. They weren't under constant pressure or attack in recent years like they had been leading up to the events of the first game. So it seems natural that they wouldn't be as defensive around others.
It was like the walking dead all over again lol I quit after this happened and when glenn got smashed with the bat
Joel should never have died. It should’ve been about Elliot avenging her dad.
They killed the best character just for us to play as characters we don’t care about (Ellie doesn’t feel like Ellie)